January 17, 2014 • 30 mins
Serial killers are insane, prone to exaggeration and delusion, and often inveterate liars. Amid some of their wilder claims, several notable serial killers, such as David Berkowitz and Henry Lee Lucas, have stated that they were killing on the orders of a cult. Is there any way it could be true? Tune in to learn more about the Hand of Death, Four Pi and other alleged serial killer cults.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs two, ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello,
welcome back. We'll welcome for the first time to stuff
they don't want you to know. I'm Bend and I'm Matt,
(00:22):
and today we're going to start the podcast with a
a little bit of a of a dark thing, a
little bit of a weird thing. All right, I like it,
Let's do it. Okay. So this is a question that
I want to throw out to you and then we'll
answer it at the end of the episode. Sound cool,
(00:43):
all right, I'm excited. Okay. How many serial killers do
you think are active right now? By which I mean uncaught,
Maybe they're in the hibernation phase after they've done them
of murder of some sort um. How many do you
think there are? I would estimate worldwide? Um, you know what,
(01:07):
let's keep it in the US. Just in the US
twenty okay, and that's you know, that number sounds scary
at first, but there three hundred something million people here
and of those twenty there are twenty. Then a lot
of them won't be active for a while, right there. Yeah,
(01:29):
it'll be like the B T K killer Dennis Radar,
who UM was out of it was not murdering people
for what a decade more um, and then finally got
caught when he came back, which is a story for
different day. So as we begin met, I have to ask, um,
(01:50):
what is a serial killer? Most basic level, UM, it's
someone who kills for a reason. It was for they feel, Um,
they feel that they need to kill for some reason
or another. They're compelled to do so. It's a compulsion. Um.
(02:10):
There are various number of reasons. Because they get sexual
pleasure out of doing so, Because they feel that they
are called to to kill a certain type of person
for pseudo religious reason maybe Yeah, that happens quite often UM.
Or because they feel like they're gaining something from it,
(02:33):
that they're gaining some kind of power by taking the
life of somebody else. And there there are several other
reasons there. There's a we have a great article on
how stuff works. If you want to read that how
serial killers work. It goes over some of that basic
level serial killer stuff. Yeah, that's a that's a actually
that's a great primer for serial killers. No one thing
that we should also mention is that serial killer is
(02:57):
sort of an umbrella term in a lot of ways. Uh.
For instance, the iceman of famous mob Hitman killed quite
a few people for monetary gain because it was kind
of his job or his career path. And then on
the other side, we have people, um who have received
(03:17):
heavy physiological trauma early in their life and they don't
process emotions the same way that a person with all
the cylinders firing does. And this is not to say
that neurological damage automatically makes somebody a monstrous human being, um,
(03:37):
but it can impair what we would consider to be
the essential functioning of of of a human Oh yeah,
and one last caveat the people were speaking about are
not spree killers and they're also not um like mass
murderers generally, people who would just go in and kill
a whole bunch of people at one time and then
(04:00):
either get caught, kill themselves, or be done with it.
These are people who kill generally and then they will
it's it's horrible to say, but not kill for a period,
then kill again, and maybe they will also and they'll
also typically uh cover up their crime if possible. Just
spree killer wouldn't do exactly. So here is where we
(04:25):
get to a disturbing and fascinating idea that a long
time ago. Now, you and I did an episode asking
if serial killers are controlled by a cult. This is
one of the darker conspiracy theories we've run into, and
it's one that fascinates us both. I think, oh yeah, well,
(04:46):
because you have the people the serial killers talking about
certain groups like the four Pie movement was mentioned, the
Hand of Death. Again, the this is from their mouths.
These uh, these organizations were mentioned, right, yeah, And let's
do a little bit of background tiers. So let's start
(05:09):
with a Hand of Death. So Henry Lee Lucas oddest tool. Um,
they were something that rarely happens in the acknowledged world
of serial killers. They were a team, they worked in
pairs and um, they were lovers for a time. They
also claimed to have killed. Eventually, they claimed to have
(05:30):
killed hundreds of people, especially Henry Lee Lucas, and they
said they did this at the orders of an organization
called the Hand of Death. That they were trained to
murder people, um, as part of a satanic ritual or
some sort of dark magic thing. And they claimed furthermore
(05:53):
that the Hand of death was not just based in
this training camp area. They claimed that it was a national,
perhaps even world wide organization that spanned the height and
depth of human society, all the way down to low
lifes like them, and all the way up to the
financial socio political elites of the US and the world. Um,
(06:17):
it's so crazy, man. Even David Burke Awitz uh he
he said that he had assistance that were from the
Four Pie cult um. He claimed to have insider knowledge
of a murder that still is unsolved. Um, it's the
artist Perry Stanford Memorial Church murder of nineteen seventy four.
You can type that into a search bar and you
(06:39):
will find information about it. Yeah, and people arguing both
for and against Burke awits his knowledge of this. Yeah. Absolutely,
And um, now the Four Pie churches is pretty interesting.
We talked about those in the video. Can you give
us like a high level? I can. I might go
down a bit of a rabbit hole here. Just tell
me when ready for me to stop. Okay, okay. So
(07:03):
the Four Pie movement was allegedly linked to this thing
called the Process Church of the Final Judgment Um, which
was kind of a It was a cultish movement UM
back in the nineteen sixties, and man, I it's it's
pretty crazy, Okay, So it was it started off as
(07:24):
an offshoot from the Church of Scientology, the Process church
was and they they it's kind of weird. Man. I
don't want to get too deep into what they believe
or anything, but it kind of it has a link
that I think you'll be interested in. So they believe
that their personality traits in each one of us, uh,
(07:48):
and they marked they called called them there four of
them Jehovah, Lucifer, Satan, and Christ and and they essentially
worship all four and they believe that you kind of
have to worship each one to really attain enlightenment. What's
a difference than if I could ask between Satan and Lucifer.
(08:08):
Lucifer is more of the uh hedonistic kind of a
person um, self aggrandizing, look for knowledge, that kind of thing,
some more Promethean kind of a light bringer, yea lucifer Um.
And then Satan is just more uh aggressive kind of
(08:30):
a kind of yeah. But then there's some of that
in Jehovah as well. It's really interesting. It's passing and
I recommend anyone who wants to learn more about this. Uh,
there are a couple of things you can do. The
first thing would be to read The Process Um by
Gary Lakshman L. A. C. H M A n Um,
which is just a quick article from the fort In Times,
(08:50):
but it's really fascinating read um. And there's also there
are a couple of books that you can read. But
here's here's the thing. What's the link. The link to
me is the four pie also known as four P.
It's been mentioned as the four P movement UM. So
if you look at the symbol that was used for
this group, the Process Church, it looks somewhat like a swastika,
(09:12):
kind of a little bit like a swastika, but it's
really four ps that are linked at the circular part
of the P, but it's in a square, but it's
four ps right in the Process Church. And I found
that really interesting, just as one of the you know,
the conspiracy theory kind of connection that really doesn't mean anything,
(09:34):
but it still makes you go just enough to be disturbing.
And we'll come back to those folks. We also have
side note for this met there's a very interesting story
here in the cult angle of the Man's murders. Now,
Manson already was leading a cult, and the question is
was this cult involved with some other larger network. This
(09:58):
is just a story that I wanted to get out
there because not a lot of people know it. During
the period leading up to Helter Skelter, when Manson and
his group were on a darker precipitous decline from there
otherwise utopian philosophy or or whatever thing mayd going on,
they went out to the desert right, and uh, their
(10:21):
ideas got crazier and crazier. Of course, the ultimate stated
aim for the murders that the Manson family ultimately committed
where that they were trying to trigger a global race
war um that would be between black people and white people,
and the whole time, the Manson family would hide out
(10:43):
in some magic cave where they would have all the
supplies they needed, and then after the black part of
the world's population killed all of the white people, Manson,
who was cartoonishly racist right, thought that his family would
climb out of this magic cave and take over, because,
(11:05):
of course, he assumed black people are incapable of making
of of making authoritative decisions, which just gives me just
gives you like a peek into how ugly this guy's
mind is. Right, Yeah, and just insane. It's so insane.
It is so insane. I don't know how you can
(11:25):
believe it. I guess it helps if you are yourself
a very racist person. But he um. But the reason
I bring up all this crazy stuff is at the
same time that this was happening, there was a miner
named Paul Crockett who lived nearby. And Paul Crockett is
a very mysterious character in the Helter Skelter story. He was, remember,
(11:46):
this older retired miner, but he had knowledge somehow of
scientology and other similar practices. Now, when I say cultish,
you guys know what I'm talking about. I know that
evil might say that we're saying something bad about scientology. No,
we're saying he had knowledge of this, and he had
(12:08):
knowledge of other things that helped him um rescue some
of the people in Charles Manson's family, and they had
these amazing psychological battles with each other where Manson was
trying to get in his head and Paul Crockett was.
It was very it was very Yoda uh Emperor Palpatine
(12:29):
kind of kind of the forces of light and evil
there and when when we talk about this, when we
talked about the manipulation UH that Manson had, There's been
a lot of conspiratorial thoughts UM or conspiratorial arguments that
Manson was somehow getting orders from somewhere else, not just
influenced by the dianetics and stuff he studied in prison,
(12:53):
not just influenced by his contact with counterculture cults in California,
which was a strangely difficult sentenced to say, but that
he was also UM working at the behest of this.
Now here we have these ideas, and each of these three,
these three examples have some sort a different level of credence.
(13:17):
So for me, UM, the most plausible one is David
Berkowitz UM, because another guy named Stanley Baker Uh was
caught Committee murders. He said he was recruited by four
pie in University of Wisconsin, and David Berkowitz, you know,
(13:37):
originally he copped to all the murders. He didn't change
his story until the nineties, but he was already in
jail forever. No way he was getting out. Um, didn't
someone also attempt to murder him? Yes, and he changed
his story because of that, Yes, someone also attempted to
murder him imprison Uh. Some of the investigators in the
(13:59):
Berkowitz Kuh think that there's credence to the idea that
his people who lived nearby, the car brothers C. A. R. R.
Had a role in this um and they both died
in during parts of the investigation. UM. So I would
say that as the most credence, and then the Manson stuff,
(14:20):
it's it's difficult to tell because it's a question of
how much weight are we putting on people hanging out
together in California, you know what I mean? Just because
you and I go to a party with it happened
to be in the same room with someone doesn't mean
that we're planning an international Satanic panic. Yeah. And just
(14:41):
because a couple of members of the Processed Church went
and visited Manson one time doesn't necessarily mean anything, right, Yeah,
just like just because the process Church was an offshoot
of people made by people who met via scientology doesn't
mean that it's in any way condone by or related
(15:02):
to the actual church. So no, no, not at all,
And gosh, I hope nobody got that from what I
was saying. No, I don't think. Okay, I don't think.
Just just to clarify the process, Church used the idea
of uh using the E meter, and they just kind
of changed that around a little bit into their own
thing and used it to to measure emotion rather than uh,
(15:27):
whatever it is that he made emeter, which is uh. Well,
I I just have to say that this is also
in the Church of Scientology. It's a hugely bad heretical
thing to do, to to mess with in any way
these ideas or to have your own ideas inserted in there. Um.
(15:47):
I think one of the terms for it is squirreling,
and that makes you an sp or suppressive person, which
is very bad. And now you don't want to be that. No,
it's anathema or shutting kind of. So anyway, we're we're
talking about all these different organizations, the and these different stories.
The least plausible story is uh the hand of death
(16:11):
story with Henry Lee lucas an oddest tool. Now I
think it's the least plausible because they're not because there's
not a conspiracy. I think this actually does have a
genuine conspiracy. But you know what I'm talking about. You
know why I don't think that Henry Lee Lucas really
killed over three people. Well, yeah, one of the biggest
(16:35):
things you look at with serial killers is their level
of intelligence in order to get away with a huge
number of murders like that. And let's face it, if
you look at Henry Lucas an honest tool, Um, they're
not the sharpest knives in the kitchen. Yeah, they're not
(16:55):
the brightest bulbs in the pack. Ye right, yeah, the
um for a number of reasons, especially in the case
of Lucas, who suffered some fairly horrific injuries in his childhood. Um,
these are not men's A level criminals. They're not as
intelligent as say Ted Bundy, for instance, so their claims
(17:20):
um don't really have the best credibility at all. Let's
even just not considering the fact the fact that serial
killers are prone to wild exaggeration because they are crazy. Um,
there's or you know, if you're a serial killer, you're
listening to this right now, you have a dysfunction. You
(17:43):
don't have superpowers, you really don't. But these, uh, some
of these problems can be exploited by the real conspiracy,
which I submit to you, was that law enforcement saw
in Henry Lee Lucas and artist tool a way to
close a bunch of unsolved, unsolved, unresolved cases. And you
(18:05):
can see this because the crimes that they're agreeing to
committing at times were physically impossible for them to commit. Now,
they would say that maybe it was somebody else in
the cult right in the hand of death if you
pushed them towards that. But Lucas also said that he
was confessing to things because he would get better treatment
(18:27):
in the prison system, which is just way more plausible
to me. So well, I can see that that that's
one of the biggest things you have to do as
a law enforcement agency is to close cases. And you know,
sometimes if there's a scary thing, you have to you
have to find a way to make it stop. Even
(18:48):
if it doesn't actually stop the killings, it's gonna it's
gonna quell the fears. You're thinking of McNulty and the wire,
That's exactly what I'm thinking of. Yeah, uh so, the
the idea here is is frightening in its own way.
That there could be people who were waiting to hear
(19:10):
what happened to their missing parents, the missing child, the
missing friend, and to be told a lie that there
was this guy who couldn't possibly done the murder, but
he says he's done it. And false confessions are distressing,
but it also really really throws a lot of the
(19:31):
credibility of this cult story to the wayside. Now we
do know that there are people who really have been
parts of cults. Uh. This guy named Jeffrey Lundgren part
of a heretical offshoot of the Church of Latter day
Saints or the Mormon Church. Um. He killed people, killed
a family of five. Guy named Aldolfo constanzo Um was
(19:57):
a drug dealer and worked with Cartel's and practiced black magic,
where we would have a cauldron of people's bodies, they
would eat from it, they would use it the magical rituals.
It didn't prevent him from being caught at all. It's
almost as if that didn't work. I'm not going to
(20:19):
go ahead and say that what he was doing made
him a charlatan, but it certainly didn't keep him alive.
Fair point, fair point, fair point. But so with with
those cults. These were um like the Manson cult. They
were tight knit groups of people who had been psychologically
exploited right and had their egos slowly erased by a
(20:42):
charismatic leader of some of some sort, and then had
that enforced by intimidation and fear. Um, this is a
regrettably easy thing to do. Now, Ben, we talked about
a lot of the past series killers that we know about, um,
about what makes them a serial killer and about what
(21:05):
um strange circumstances they found themselves in. But here's where
it gets crazy. There are serial killers out there right now,
probably with all I mean. I say probably because I
can't prove it. But they're out there right now, sitting somewhere,
maybe in a van, maybe in their shock up on
(21:28):
the mountain, maybe in their mansion, maybe in a church.
Maybe in a church they're just hanging out plotting. Maybe
they're not plotting. Maybe today they're just having a sandwich
and reading the newspaper. Um, you know, maybe they're hugging
their children right now. But they're there, out there, right now. Yeah,
(21:49):
it is true. Uh. No one knows to answer our
original question, No one has any idea how many active
serial killers could exist. When I was UM, when I
was looking into some of this stuff earlier, it hit
me and I always remember this thought stayed with me
(22:10):
which is um. The serial killers that are caught, right,
are often caught because there they were in a decline,
a psychological decline of some sort. Right, So what if
we're just getting the dregs of the serial killer population.
What if we're just finding the people who were not
(22:33):
able to sustain their monstrous appetite or to maintain they're
terrifying addiction to death, or they just weren't that good
in the first place at being at playing that creepy role. Right, Yeah, exactly,
because there are for every um, for every person who
gets caught, um, because they have done things that clearly
(23:00):
implicate them in a crime, there are other people who
are probably getting away with something right now, No, not
very many, I don't. I don't think that it's a
common thing. But there I'm sure that a simple search
will show us cases of you know what, one one
type of serial killer that gets around a lot is
(23:22):
the medical practitioner. But every once in a while kills
a patient. Yeah, not every day, not every year, but hey, yeah,
maybe when you're in the hospital. But but we don't
want to be alarmist. This is very small thing. The
question is is there any sand to this conspiracy theory
(23:48):
that serial killers could be part of a cult. Well,
let's talk about the thing that you left us with
on and on our video that we made about this. Okay,
this can yourcy theory relies heavily how did you put it?
Relies heavily on the the information or the statements of
people who are insane. Oh. Yeah, that that's the little
(24:11):
caveat there. Yeah. That the main weakness of this conspiracy
theory is that relies heavily on the statements of serial
killers who are again nuts bonkers. Yeah. I mean, you
watch any interview with Charles Manson, any of them. I
don't care which one. Just watch it, check it out.
(24:31):
And people might say that he's a different case because
it's not because he didn't physically commit you know, the
Tate la Banca murders. But it's clear. But it's not
a healthy thing to want to do, to kill multiple
people for no reason. That is a nice way to
put it. And and um, I guess I guess one
(24:51):
thing that we do need to talk about is that
a lot of these these cult theories originated during a
moral panic in the United States was called the Satanic Panic.
And the Satanic Panic was this idea that there were
numerous cases of child abductions, rapes, and murders um at
(25:12):
the behest of a secret Satanic network that ran the
the world as we know, it went all the way
up the government's all over the world. And that gave
us one fascinating fact about the only pardon it was
ever received when George Bush was governor of Texas, which
(25:34):
we just have to mention, people will get mad if
we don't he he pardoned, Well, it was it was
George W. Bush as then governor. And then wasn't it
also Jeb Bush who also made Florida in Florida, who
made a bit of a strange pardon and who was
that for been oddest tool was pardoned in Florida, and um,
(25:59):
George be A. Bush pardoned Henry Lee Lucas in Texas.
This was the I believe, the only pardon on the
execution board. Or didn't they just they stayed their execution
or what it? What was it exactly then? But I
mean both men died in prison. Yeah, yeah, but they
weren't executed because because of the Bushes Um. Now, you know,
(26:20):
we don't know the story behind that, but that's one
of the facts that people will always point out to
us when we say, well, no, they probably weren't part
of a cult. They're probably making it up. To be honest, Matt,
you and I do not know the story about those
uh stays of execution. I haven't seen I haven't seen
any literature on exactly why either of those pardons occurred. Now,
(26:45):
I do think that there might be I'm gonna rate
this one as wildly exaggerated, but to a degree possible.
I think it's completely possible that there are groups of
people who plan or execute murders for ritualistic or ideological purposes,
(27:08):
um some of and and we know for a fact
that there killers who remain uncaught. There's a stretch of
highway in what is it Canada where uh an abnormal
amount of people turn up missing. Uh, there is, I
think it's in Canada. There's also what's called the train
murders spelled t R A n e U. Used to
(27:30):
be called the Smiley Face Killer. I don't know if
that's real or if it's an urban legend. Maybe people
can tell us more about it. But long story short,
too late, ha ha uh. Is there an international community
of devil worshippers? Killing people. Most likely, there's no way
(27:51):
it could happen and remain a secret. Is there are
there groups of small, small groups of lunatics rather who
are killing people. Absolutely, there's no way around it. There's
certainly small groups of lunatics consistently killing people, and it
is not unreasonable to say that some of those groups
(28:14):
have yet to be caught. Sure, it makes me think
of pulp fiction and the guys are on the pawn shop.
You just every once in a while catch somebody in
their trap and execute them. And that, Oh man, that
really creeps me out and I enjoy that. It makes
my imagination run wild. But then I think we're gonna
(28:39):
be giving people nightmares by talking about this. Well also, yeah,
well we are talking about our statistical anomalies. It's there's
statistical anomalies, but there are it's also just kind of
a reality. We a lot of times on our show
we talked about the human nature, in the nature of
humanity and what the darker side of it, what it
leads to, and that's exactly what this is. Yeah, it is.
(29:03):
We would we would like to hear what you think.
Thank you guys for listening to our episode on the
serial killer cults, conspiracy Matt, what what do you want
to have people tell us about. I'd like to hear
um some conspiracy theories about serial killers, especially active serial killers.
If you have any information, let us know the stories
(29:24):
you've heard, and then also let us know whether you
believe them. Yes, please don't cut out letters from magazine
and rearrange them into a letter and send it to us,
or do we please God, don't do that? Uh? If
you rather not cut out pieces of newspaper and send
us those publications, you can be our friends on Facebook.
(29:45):
We would love it help us keep our jobs. You
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Stuff at both of those, and you can always send
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dot com. From one on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon,
(30:08):
visit test tube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can
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conspiracy stuff
From UFOs two, ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello,
welcome back. We'll welcome for the first time to stuff
they don't want you to know. I'm Bend and I'm Matt,
(00:22):
and today we're going to start the podcast with a
a little bit of a of a dark thing, a
little bit of a weird thing. All right, I like it,
Let's do it. Okay. So this is a question that
I want to throw out to you and then we'll
answer it at the end of the episode. Sound cool,
(00:43):
all right, I'm excited. Okay. How many serial killers do
you think are active right now? By which I mean uncaught,
Maybe they're in the hibernation phase after they've done them
of murder of some sort um. How many do you
think there are? I would estimate worldwide? Um, you know what,
(01:07):
let's keep it in the US. Just in the US
twenty okay, and that's you know, that number sounds scary
at first, but there three hundred something million people here
and of those twenty there are twenty. Then a lot
of them won't be active for a while, right there. Yeah,
(01:29):
it'll be like the B T K killer Dennis Radar,
who UM was out of it was not murdering people
for what a decade more um, and then finally got
caught when he came back, which is a story for
different day. So as we begin met, I have to ask, um,
(01:50):
what is a serial killer? Most basic level, UM, it's
someone who kills for a reason. It was for they feel, Um,
they feel that they need to kill for some reason
or another. They're compelled to do so. It's a compulsion. Um.
(02:10):
There are various number of reasons. Because they get sexual
pleasure out of doing so, Because they feel that they
are called to to kill a certain type of person
for pseudo religious reason maybe Yeah, that happens quite often UM.
Or because they feel like they're gaining something from it,
(02:33):
that they're gaining some kind of power by taking the
life of somebody else. And there there are several other
reasons there. There's a we have a great article on
how stuff works. If you want to read that how
serial killers work. It goes over some of that basic
level serial killer stuff. Yeah, that's a that's a actually
that's a great primer for serial killers. No one thing
that we should also mention is that serial killer is
(02:57):
sort of an umbrella term in a lot of ways. Uh.
For instance, the iceman of famous mob Hitman killed quite
a few people for monetary gain because it was kind
of his job or his career path. And then on
the other side, we have people, um who have received
(03:17):
heavy physiological trauma early in their life and they don't
process emotions the same way that a person with all
the cylinders firing does. And this is not to say
that neurological damage automatically makes somebody a monstrous human being, um,
(03:37):
but it can impair what we would consider to be
the essential functioning of of of a human Oh yeah,
and one last caveat the people were speaking about are
not spree killers and they're also not um like mass
murderers generally, people who would just go in and kill
a whole bunch of people at one time and then
(04:00):
either get caught, kill themselves, or be done with it.
These are people who kill generally and then they will
it's it's horrible to say, but not kill for a period,
then kill again, and maybe they will also and they'll
also typically uh cover up their crime if possible. Just
spree killer wouldn't do exactly. So here is where we
(04:25):
get to a disturbing and fascinating idea that a long
time ago. Now, you and I did an episode asking
if serial killers are controlled by a cult. This is
one of the darker conspiracy theories we've run into, and
it's one that fascinates us both. I think, oh yeah, well,
(04:46):
because you have the people the serial killers talking about
certain groups like the four Pie movement was mentioned, the
Hand of Death. Again, the this is from their mouths.
These uh, these organizations were mentioned, right, yeah, And let's
do a little bit of background tiers. So let's start
(05:09):
with a Hand of Death. So Henry Lee Lucas oddest tool. Um,
they were something that rarely happens in the acknowledged world
of serial killers. They were a team, they worked in
pairs and um, they were lovers for a time. They
also claimed to have killed. Eventually, they claimed to have
(05:30):
killed hundreds of people, especially Henry Lee Lucas, and they
said they did this at the orders of an organization
called the Hand of Death. That they were trained to
murder people, um, as part of a satanic ritual or
some sort of dark magic thing. And they claimed furthermore
(05:53):
that the Hand of death was not just based in
this training camp area. They claimed that it was a national,
perhaps even world wide organization that spanned the height and
depth of human society, all the way down to low
lifes like them, and all the way up to the
financial socio political elites of the US and the world. Um,
(06:17):
it's so crazy, man. Even David Burke Awitz uh he
he said that he had assistance that were from the
Four Pie cult um. He claimed to have insider knowledge
of a murder that still is unsolved. Um, it's the
artist Perry Stanford Memorial Church murder of nineteen seventy four.
You can type that into a search bar and you
(06:39):
will find information about it. Yeah, and people arguing both
for and against Burke awits his knowledge of this. Yeah. Absolutely,
And um, now the Four Pie churches is pretty interesting.
We talked about those in the video. Can you give
us like a high level? I can. I might go
down a bit of a rabbit hole here. Just tell
me when ready for me to stop. Okay, okay. So
(07:03):
the Four Pie movement was allegedly linked to this thing
called the Process Church of the Final Judgment Um, which
was kind of a It was a cultish movement UM
back in the nineteen sixties, and man, I it's it's
pretty crazy, Okay, So it was it started off as
(07:24):
an offshoot from the Church of Scientology, the Process church
was and they they it's kind of weird. Man. I
don't want to get too deep into what they believe
or anything, but it kind of it has a link
that I think you'll be interested in. So they believe
that their personality traits in each one of us, uh,
(07:48):
and they marked they called called them there four of
them Jehovah, Lucifer, Satan, and Christ and and they essentially
worship all four and they believe that you kind of
have to worship each one to really attain enlightenment. What's
a difference than if I could ask between Satan and Lucifer.
(08:08):
Lucifer is more of the uh hedonistic kind of a
person um, self aggrandizing, look for knowledge, that kind of thing,
some more Promethean kind of a light bringer, yea lucifer Um.
And then Satan is just more uh aggressive kind of
(08:30):
a kind of yeah. But then there's some of that
in Jehovah as well. It's really interesting. It's passing and
I recommend anyone who wants to learn more about this. Uh,
there are a couple of things you can do. The
first thing would be to read The Process Um by
Gary Lakshman L. A. C. H M A n Um,
which is just a quick article from the fort In Times,
(08:50):
but it's really fascinating read um. And there's also there
are a couple of books that you can read. But
here's here's the thing. What's the link. The link to
me is the four pie also known as four P.
It's been mentioned as the four P movement UM. So
if you look at the symbol that was used for
this group, the Process Church, it looks somewhat like a swastika,
(09:12):
kind of a little bit like a swastika, but it's
really four ps that are linked at the circular part
of the P, but it's in a square, but it's
four ps right in the Process Church. And I found
that really interesting, just as one of the you know,
the conspiracy theory kind of connection that really doesn't mean anything,
(09:34):
but it still makes you go just enough to be disturbing.
And we'll come back to those folks. We also have
side note for this met there's a very interesting story
here in the cult angle of the Man's murders. Now,
Manson already was leading a cult, and the question is
was this cult involved with some other larger network. This
(09:58):
is just a story that I wanted to get out
there because not a lot of people know it. During
the period leading up to Helter Skelter, when Manson and
his group were on a darker precipitous decline from there
otherwise utopian philosophy or or whatever thing mayd going on,
they went out to the desert right, and uh, their
(10:21):
ideas got crazier and crazier. Of course, the ultimate stated
aim for the murders that the Manson family ultimately committed
where that they were trying to trigger a global race
war um that would be between black people and white people,
and the whole time, the Manson family would hide out
(10:43):
in some magic cave where they would have all the
supplies they needed, and then after the black part of
the world's population killed all of the white people, Manson,
who was cartoonishly racist right, thought that his family would
climb out of this magic cave and take over, because,
(11:05):
of course, he assumed black people are incapable of making
of of making authoritative decisions, which just gives me just
gives you like a peek into how ugly this guy's
mind is. Right, Yeah, and just insane. It's so insane.
It is so insane. I don't know how you can
(11:25):
believe it. I guess it helps if you are yourself
a very racist person. But he um. But the reason
I bring up all this crazy stuff is at the
same time that this was happening, there was a miner
named Paul Crockett who lived nearby. And Paul Crockett is
a very mysterious character in the Helter Skelter story. He was, remember,
(11:46):
this older retired miner, but he had knowledge somehow of
scientology and other similar practices. Now, when I say cultish,
you guys know what I'm talking about. I know that
evil might say that we're saying something bad about scientology. No,
we're saying he had knowledge of this, and he had
(12:08):
knowledge of other things that helped him um rescue some
of the people in Charles Manson's family, and they had
these amazing psychological battles with each other where Manson was
trying to get in his head and Paul Crockett was.
It was very it was very Yoda uh Emperor Palpatine
(12:29):
kind of kind of the forces of light and evil
there and when when we talk about this, when we
talked about the manipulation UH that Manson had, There's been
a lot of conspiratorial thoughts UM or conspiratorial arguments that
Manson was somehow getting orders from somewhere else, not just
influenced by the dianetics and stuff he studied in prison,
(12:53):
not just influenced by his contact with counterculture cults in California,
which was a strangely difficult sentenced to say, but that
he was also UM working at the behest of this.
Now here we have these ideas, and each of these three,
these three examples have some sort a different level of credence.
(13:17):
So for me, UM, the most plausible one is David
Berkowitz UM, because another guy named Stanley Baker Uh was
caught Committee murders. He said he was recruited by four
pie in University of Wisconsin, and David Berkowitz, you know,
(13:37):
originally he copped to all the murders. He didn't change
his story until the nineties, but he was already in
jail forever. No way he was getting out. Um, didn't
someone also attempt to murder him? Yes, and he changed
his story because of that, Yes, someone also attempted to
murder him imprison Uh. Some of the investigators in the
(13:59):
Berkowitz Kuh think that there's credence to the idea that
his people who lived nearby, the car brothers C. A. R. R.
Had a role in this um and they both died
in during parts of the investigation. UM. So I would
say that as the most credence, and then the Manson stuff,
(14:20):
it's it's difficult to tell because it's a question of
how much weight are we putting on people hanging out
together in California, you know what I mean? Just because
you and I go to a party with it happened
to be in the same room with someone doesn't mean
that we're planning an international Satanic panic. Yeah. And just
(14:41):
because a couple of members of the Processed Church went
and visited Manson one time doesn't necessarily mean anything, right, Yeah,
just like just because the process Church was an offshoot
of people made by people who met via scientology doesn't
mean that it's in any way condone by or related
(15:02):
to the actual church. So no, no, not at all,
And gosh, I hope nobody got that from what I
was saying. No, I don't think. Okay, I don't think.
Just just to clarify the process, Church used the idea
of uh using the E meter, and they just kind
of changed that around a little bit into their own
thing and used it to to measure emotion rather than uh,
(15:27):
whatever it is that he made emeter, which is uh. Well,
I I just have to say that this is also
in the Church of Scientology. It's a hugely bad heretical
thing to do, to to mess with in any way
these ideas or to have your own ideas inserted in there. Um.
(15:47):
I think one of the terms for it is squirreling,
and that makes you an sp or suppressive person, which
is very bad. And now you don't want to be that. No,
it's anathema or shutting kind of. So anyway, we're we're
talking about all these different organizations, the and these different stories.
The least plausible story is uh the hand of death
(16:11):
story with Henry Lee lucas an oddest tool. Now I
think it's the least plausible because they're not because there's
not a conspiracy. I think this actually does have a
genuine conspiracy. But you know what I'm talking about. You
know why I don't think that Henry Lee Lucas really
killed over three people. Well, yeah, one of the biggest
(16:35):
things you look at with serial killers is their level
of intelligence in order to get away with a huge
number of murders like that. And let's face it, if
you look at Henry Lucas an honest tool, Um, they're
not the sharpest knives in the kitchen. Yeah, they're not
(16:55):
the brightest bulbs in the pack. Ye right, yeah, the
um for a number of reasons, especially in the case
of Lucas, who suffered some fairly horrific injuries in his childhood. Um,
these are not men's A level criminals. They're not as
intelligent as say Ted Bundy, for instance, so their claims
(17:20):
um don't really have the best credibility at all. Let's
even just not considering the fact the fact that serial
killers are prone to wild exaggeration because they are crazy. Um,
there's or you know, if you're a serial killer, you're
listening to this right now, you have a dysfunction. You
(17:43):
don't have superpowers, you really don't. But these, uh, some
of these problems can be exploited by the real conspiracy,
which I submit to you, was that law enforcement saw
in Henry Lee Lucas and artist tool a way to
close a bunch of unsolved, unsolved, unresolved cases. And you
(18:05):
can see this because the crimes that they're agreeing to
committing at times were physically impossible for them to commit. Now,
they would say that maybe it was somebody else in
the cult right in the hand of death if you
pushed them towards that. But Lucas also said that he
was confessing to things because he would get better treatment
(18:27):
in the prison system, which is just way more plausible
to me. So well, I can see that that that's
one of the biggest things you have to do as
a law enforcement agency is to close cases. And you know,
sometimes if there's a scary thing, you have to you
have to find a way to make it stop. Even
(18:48):
if it doesn't actually stop the killings, it's gonna it's
gonna quell the fears. You're thinking of McNulty and the wire,
That's exactly what I'm thinking of. Yeah, uh so, the
the idea here is is frightening in its own way.
That there could be people who were waiting to hear
(19:10):
what happened to their missing parents, the missing child, the
missing friend, and to be told a lie that there
was this guy who couldn't possibly done the murder, but
he says he's done it. And false confessions are distressing,
but it also really really throws a lot of the
(19:31):
credibility of this cult story to the wayside. Now we
do know that there are people who really have been
parts of cults. Uh. This guy named Jeffrey Lundgren part
of a heretical offshoot of the Church of Latter day
Saints or the Mormon Church. Um. He killed people, killed
a family of five. Guy named Aldolfo constanzo Um was
(19:57):
a drug dealer and worked with Cartel's and practiced black magic,
where we would have a cauldron of people's bodies, they
would eat from it, they would use it the magical rituals.
It didn't prevent him from being caught at all. It's
almost as if that didn't work. I'm not going to
(20:19):
go ahead and say that what he was doing made
him a charlatan, but it certainly didn't keep him alive.
Fair point, fair point, fair point. But so with with
those cults. These were um like the Manson cult. They
were tight knit groups of people who had been psychologically
exploited right and had their egos slowly erased by a
(20:42):
charismatic leader of some of some sort, and then had
that enforced by intimidation and fear. Um, this is a
regrettably easy thing to do. Now, Ben, we talked about
a lot of the past series killers that we know about, um,
about what makes them a serial killer and about what
(21:05):
um strange circumstances they found themselves in. But here's where
it gets crazy. There are serial killers out there right now,
probably with all I mean. I say probably because I
can't prove it. But they're out there right now, sitting somewhere,
maybe in a van, maybe in their shock up on
(21:28):
the mountain, maybe in their mansion, maybe in a church.
Maybe in a church they're just hanging out plotting. Maybe
they're not plotting. Maybe today they're just having a sandwich
and reading the newspaper. Um, you know, maybe they're hugging
their children right now. But they're there, out there, right now. Yeah,
(21:49):
it is true. Uh. No one knows to answer our
original question, No one has any idea how many active
serial killers could exist. When I was UM, when I
was looking into some of this stuff earlier, it hit
me and I always remember this thought stayed with me
(22:10):
which is um. The serial killers that are caught, right,
are often caught because there they were in a decline,
a psychological decline of some sort. Right, So what if
we're just getting the dregs of the serial killer population.
What if we're just finding the people who were not
(22:33):
able to sustain their monstrous appetite or to maintain they're
terrifying addiction to death, or they just weren't that good
in the first place at being at playing that creepy role. Right, Yeah, exactly,
because there are for every um, for every person who
gets caught, um, because they have done things that clearly
(23:00):
implicate them in a crime, there are other people who
are probably getting away with something right now, No, not
very many, I don't. I don't think that it's a
common thing. But there I'm sure that a simple search
will show us cases of you know what, one one
type of serial killer that gets around a lot is
(23:22):
the medical practitioner. But every once in a while kills
a patient. Yeah, not every day, not every year, but hey, yeah,
maybe when you're in the hospital. But but we don't
want to be alarmist. This is very small thing. The
question is is there any sand to this conspiracy theory
(23:48):
that serial killers could be part of a cult. Well,
let's talk about the thing that you left us with
on and on our video that we made about this. Okay,
this can yourcy theory relies heavily how did you put it?
Relies heavily on the the information or the statements of
people who are insane. Oh. Yeah, that that's the little
(24:11):
caveat there. Yeah. That the main weakness of this conspiracy
theory is that relies heavily on the statements of serial
killers who are again nuts bonkers. Yeah. I mean, you
watch any interview with Charles Manson, any of them. I
don't care which one. Just watch it, check it out.
(24:31):
And people might say that he's a different case because
it's not because he didn't physically commit you know, the
Tate la Banca murders. But it's clear. But it's not
a healthy thing to want to do, to kill multiple
people for no reason. That is a nice way to
put it. And and um, I guess I guess one
(24:51):
thing that we do need to talk about is that
a lot of these these cult theories originated during a
moral panic in the United States was called the Satanic Panic.
And the Satanic Panic was this idea that there were
numerous cases of child abductions, rapes, and murders um at
(25:12):
the behest of a secret Satanic network that ran the
the world as we know, it went all the way
up the government's all over the world. And that gave
us one fascinating fact about the only pardon it was
ever received when George Bush was governor of Texas, which
(25:34):
we just have to mention, people will get mad if
we don't he he pardoned, Well, it was it was
George W. Bush as then governor. And then wasn't it
also Jeb Bush who also made Florida in Florida, who
made a bit of a strange pardon and who was
that for been oddest tool was pardoned in Florida, and um,
(25:59):
George be A. Bush pardoned Henry Lee Lucas in Texas.
This was the I believe, the only pardon on the
execution board. Or didn't they just they stayed their execution
or what it? What was it exactly then? But I
mean both men died in prison. Yeah, yeah, but they
weren't executed because because of the Bushes Um. Now, you know,
(26:20):
we don't know the story behind that, but that's one
of the facts that people will always point out to
us when we say, well, no, they probably weren't part
of a cult. They're probably making it up. To be honest, Matt,
you and I do not know the story about those
uh stays of execution. I haven't seen I haven't seen
any literature on exactly why either of those pardons occurred. Now,
(26:45):
I do think that there might be I'm gonna rate
this one as wildly exaggerated, but to a degree possible.
I think it's completely possible that there are groups of
people who plan or execute murders for ritualistic or ideological purposes,
(27:08):
um some of and and we know for a fact
that there killers who remain uncaught. There's a stretch of
highway in what is it Canada where uh an abnormal
amount of people turn up missing. Uh, there is, I
think it's in Canada. There's also what's called the train
murders spelled t R A n e U. Used to
(27:30):
be called the Smiley Face Killer. I don't know if
that's real or if it's an urban legend. Maybe people
can tell us more about it. But long story short,
too late, ha ha uh. Is there an international community
of devil worshippers? Killing people. Most likely, there's no way
(27:51):
it could happen and remain a secret. Is there are
there groups of small, small groups of lunatics rather who
are killing people. Absolutely, there's no way around it. There's
certainly small groups of lunatics consistently killing people, and it
is not unreasonable to say that some of those groups
(28:14):
have yet to be caught. Sure, it makes me think
of pulp fiction and the guys are on the pawn shop.
You just every once in a while catch somebody in
their trap and execute them. And that, Oh man, that
really creeps me out and I enjoy that. It makes
my imagination run wild. But then I think we're gonna
(28:39):
be giving people nightmares by talking about this. Well also, yeah,
well we are talking about our statistical anomalies. It's there's
statistical anomalies, but there are it's also just kind of
a reality. We a lot of times on our show
we talked about the human nature, in the nature of
humanity and what the darker side of it, what it
leads to, and that's exactly what this is. Yeah, it is.
(29:03):
We would we would like to hear what you think.
Thank you guys for listening to our episode on the
serial killer cults, conspiracy Matt, what what do you want
to have people tell us about. I'd like to hear
um some conspiracy theories about serial killers, especially active serial killers.
If you have any information, let us know the stories
(29:24):
you've heard, and then also let us know whether you
believe them. Yes, please don't cut out letters from magazine
and rearrange them into a letter and send it to us,
or do we please God, don't do that? Uh? If
you rather not cut out pieces of newspaper and send
us those publications, you can be our friends on Facebook.
(29:45):
We would love it help us keep our jobs. You
can send us a tweet on Twitter. We are conspiracy
Stuff at both of those, and you can always send
us an email directly. Our address is conspiracy at discovery
dot com. From one on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon,
(30:08):
visit test tube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can
also get in touch on Twitter at the handle at
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