May 29, 2015 • 25 mins
What's the future of online privacy? Filmmaker Alex Winter joins Matt and Ben to talk about his new documentary "Deep Web", following the story of the infamous Silk Road and its creator, Ross Ulbricht.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
From UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello,
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and
I and Ben. Of course we are joined as always
(00:21):
by our super producer, Noel Excellent Brown and most importantly
you're here that makes this stuff they don't want you
to know. But this is not like our usual episodes, right,
Oh No, we had a fantastic opportunity. You and I
got to view a documentary that has yet to come
out almost it's almost out. We got to view it
(00:42):
a little while ago. And we just got off the
phone with somebody pretty special. Yes, our special guest today
is Alex Winter. He is the director, producer, uh, the
mastermind behind the documentary Deep Web. Alex Winter may be
familiar to m of you for his acting career as well.
(01:02):
He is Bill s Preston and Bill and Ted's Excellent
Adventure as well as Bogus Journey. He also started Lost
Boys and UH. More recently, you will recognize his two
thousand thirteen documentary Downloaded. Yes, that's the story about Napster
and Sean Fanning. Really really interesting documentary. You haven't seen it,
(01:23):
I believe if it's on Netflix, or at least it
was for a long time there. And as we put
out this podcast today on a Friday, uh, this is
the same day that Ross Olbrich, the alleged dread pirate
Roberts of the Silk Road, is being sentenced. At this time,
we have not heard what his sentence will be, but
(01:44):
we were fortunate enough to sit down with Alex Winter
who walked us through some of the biggest issues facing
the online community and the average citizen today. So the
first thing we want to know is how did you
get to this story? What led you to the deep Web?
Bud interested in online sort of growth of online communities
(02:09):
from the beginning, you know, from the eighties when I
first encountered them before the Web, and uh, it was
pretty evident at that time that you know, these communities
were going to have a massive impact, and that the
Internet in general was going to have a massive impact.
Um So I started investigating these communities, then eventually very
(02:32):
closely tracked the Master rise and fall, and I was
able to make a movie about that story which was Downloaded,
which was mostly looking at Master from the position of
global community and and it's and it's the implications of that.
And so frankly, when I learned about the Silk Road,
it seemed like here was the next kind of watershed
(02:54):
moment in the kind of rise of global communities online.
This was the first scale, doable meeting. A lot of
people were using it. UM. There wasn't just a rarefied
one off with a handful of people on. It was
a scaling community. But it was anonymous, and that was new.
So it was an anonymous community in a hidden corner
(03:14):
of the Internet using a cryptocurrency that could be anonymized,
which is bitcoin UM. And they were it was mostly
being used for buying and selling trucks UM, and so
that seemed like a good place to um to make
a movie. And then Ross Selfrich was arrested in October,
and at that point I chose to focus the story
(03:35):
on on his his case specific So Matt, at this point,
we're already hitting on one of the big issues in
the Deep Web film, which is anonymity on the Internet. Right,
I think we've talked about a lot, right, Yeah, And
so we also asked Alex about this anonymity, the the
(03:57):
unknown things there and we who dread Pirate Roberts is
a question that a lot of people have been wondering. Right.
You know the movie is about is as much about
unknowns as it is about knowns, Right. I mean, that's
what's interesting about it is what do we know? And
so what I wanted to do was raise very pointed questions,
(04:19):
which is, how do we enforce law and tried cases
in the digital age? Um? You know, can and will
radical technologies change policy, including drug war policy? Um? You know,
what is privacy today? And how um does it impact
(04:40):
the average citizen, you know, whether they're able to retain
privacy and then how much privacy they should retain? Um,
usual all questions that that um kind of strike at
the heart of the solkerp case. So they were you know,
questions I wanted to raise. I certainly didn't want to
answer them, and I don't believe they're actually our answers
for pretty much any of them at the moment. But
(05:01):
I think you're very good questions to raise. Yeah, and uh,
we agree. One of one of the things that I
had read in an earlier interview you had done was
the concept of an bitcoin and the economic ecosystem. Uh,
the idea of a cryptocurrency anonymized as well. And what
(05:22):
we were wondering is, uh, what effect would you, um,
would you estimate that bitcoin may have in the future,
especially regarding current existing currencies. UM, I think massive. I
think cryptocurrencies, whether it's Bitcoin or some other protocol, are
are here to stay. I think they're I'm not like
(05:44):
a bitcoin evangelists. I'm not one of these sort of
hedge fund people that you know, believes its goal to
point oh um. But I think in a much more
mundane way, it's um. It has a lot of really
important uses micro nations that are able to circumvent putitive
fees for moving money around the world. That makes a
really big difference to your economy if you're a small nation.
(06:05):
Bitcoin has really helped those economies in Africa and other places. Um.
You know, the need for a much more streamlined form
of digital currency is very useful there. And then you
get into this whole other area with the blockchain and
the underlying technology behind bitcoin and the blockchain as a
whole host of uses, contracts and all sorts of things
(06:26):
that I think are we're going to see are going
to become the engine for other technology. And so I
certainly while not thinking that bitcoin is is, you know,
it is something that makes me excited because I think
I think it's going to make me rich. I do
think it's it's a huge mistake to underestimate, uh, the
significant changes that are going to come as a result
of technologies like bitcoin. So one of the central issues
(06:48):
in this film are drugs, just in culture and specifically
the Silk Road, this anonymous place where you could go
and buy drugs online, and we wanted to ask Ali
how this pertains to the larger context of the war
on drugs in general. Well, I think that that technology
um is continually changing policy, you know, and you know,
(07:12):
the Internet is has a an ability to to speak
for large numbers of people that may not have had
a voice otherwise. So technology is the Internet is a
very good litmus test for the kind of the voice
of the people, as it were. And I think we're
seeing a lot of issues come into play because of
the Internet UM that relates to the Silk Road story.
(07:36):
The drug war is certainly one of them. People feel
the drug wars of failure and not four decades. It's
very expensive, it largely results in and filling our prisons
with non violent offenders. And there's a lot of resistance
to the drug war, and a lot of people in
the tech community believe that the Internet community believed that
technology can help change policy around drugs. And then there's
(07:56):
also privacy and anonymity tools, and it kind of growing
movement around the belief that people are too vulnerable on
the Internet and that there should be more privacy and
anonymity online that would prevent things like the Sony hack
from happening, and you know the Target and at the
Blue Cross hacks. So those are also areas where people
are taking matters into their own hands and creating technologies
(08:17):
so that they can help change things and give them
tools that they want. Um. As is often the case
in in sort of bleeding edge progressive or idealistic movements
like this, they're often either in direct opposition to the law,
or ahead of the law or beyond the law. Um
And that's where we encounter with the silk growth. So
(08:39):
here is one of the biggest questions that here are
some of the biggest questions that people have, which is
how did Uncle Sam managed to get into the silk road.
How did they narrowed down or find Ross albrick and
(09:02):
what if anything to do these kinds of techniques have
to do with stuff like Operation Anymous Well, Operation anymous
was not about the Silk Road. Operation Anonymous was a
year after Ross was arrested, and it was it was
it took down the second Silk Road, silk Road two
and the number. It was a global initiative between US
(09:23):
and international law enforcement agencies, and that was targeting documents
the darknet sites around the world, and the Silk Road too, um,
which was just a copycat of the first Silk Road,
just like you had Kazan lime Wire and you're telling
all these copycasts after Master went down. UM, that's what
(09:44):
that was, and that's what the Aonymous thing was. The UM.
The finding of the Silk Road servers in the case
of Silk Road one has been a matter of debate
since it was first a matter of record in the
court system. And we don't have a and fast answer
to how those servers were located, and we may never
have a hard and fast answer to how they were located,
(10:06):
and maybe a perfectly reasonably legal answer, it's just we
haven't been provided with one. And this UH This kind
of goes back to the earlier point you had made
about how many unknowns exist in the situation. Uh. To
go back to our question about law enforcement on the web,
one of the big questions that we and a lot
(10:27):
of our audience had is is it possible to enforce
the law in a global digital community. It's very very challenging. Um.
You know what needs to primarily happen, which I would
argue is happening, It's just happening slowly because there's an
enormous amount of bureaucracy. Is there needs to be massive
(10:47):
reform in search and seizure laws in the digital age?
There needs to be massive reform in the legislative process
and the constitutional process for what constants who it's appropriate?
Uh Uh, you know, penetration of people's um, you know
digital space and UM. That needs to happen with a
(11:09):
warrant and how that warrant has obtained needs to be
worked out in a in an adequate manner. And it's
it's getting there. It's just getting there slowly. The use
changes have come very very fast, and they are very
big changes. And uh, certain aspects of law enforcement are
well ahead of the curve. Let's not forget the government
basically built the Internet. Um, and the government also paid
(11:31):
for a tour and the tools that created the darknet
all come from the government and government agencies. So it's
not like they're completely behind the ball. But the government
is big and it's and it's multi pronged. Right. So
just because intelligence communities maybe really a depth in the Internet,
it doesn't mean it. Civilian law enforcement is a dept
at these technology tools. So there's like a big game
of catch up that's going on, and that's kind of
(11:52):
what we're watching happening. So on the day that this
podcast will go live, it's going to be this Friday,
that's the day that Russell is going to be sentenced,
and we're reading the prosecution asked the judge to send
a message with this sentencing. Um, what what do you
think that message is going to be? You know, they
(12:14):
it was a very it's a very interesting thing. I mean,
I think that the prosecution is being extremely frank Frankly,
I think that you know, I was in the courtroom
for some of the trial and it was very clear
that their intention, you know, which many people agree with,
is to make an example of Ross and to say
to the entire darkness community and the black market community,
(12:36):
if you do this, you'll be punished to the fullest
extent of the law. UM. I don't think it's a
very common thing where you'll actually see the prosecution literally
say that in print. You know, you know they're thinking it,
but it was you know, interesting that they actually came
right out and said it. Um. Uh not even come
from the District attorney's office actually, but regardless, uh, you know,
(12:59):
it's a it's a direct proclamation, it's a declaration of
war against um, you know, the darknet markets. UM. It's
a tricky thing, right because whatever we want to say
about Ross and what Ross did or didn't do, he
didn't create the ensuing drug markets, and he's not responsible
for what's going on um in those markets. So hopefully
(13:23):
the judge will not uh tack more time onto his
sentence for crimes that he didn't commit. It would be unfair. UM.
But I think that really the message underlying all of
this is just we feel we, meaning you know, the
government law enforcement, feel very threatened by rapidly evolving technologies
that we can't control. UM. We feel very threatened by
(13:45):
the criminality that can occur within those technologies, and because
it's very difficult for us to police that world, because
it's very difficult for us to catch people in that world.
When we do catch one, we really need to present
them to everybody and then and then make an example
out of them. And I think that's what the letter
is saying, So, Alex, one of the toughest things for
me in watching this documentary was seeing brouss Older's parents
(14:09):
and how they reacted to the whole situation, how they're
dealing with it in in almost real time. UM, I
can't I couldn't help but feel terrible for them. I know,
I know, I agree. UM, I think that you know
for me, and I think it comes across in the
movie is I have a great deal of compassion for
Rossy's family. You know, how can you not? And they're
(14:29):
caught in a really, really horrible situation and they're having
to educate themselves around extremely complex ideas very quickly. UM,
how can you not have compassion for them? It doesn't
mean you side with with um one side of the other.
You know, you follow what you know, and in this case,
what we know is very little. I think that's pretty
clear in the movie, but you can absolutely have compassion
(14:53):
for those people, which we did. Yeah, we we love
gray areas on this show, and that's kind of what
it's talking about. So here's another question. What do you
think that the audience of Deep Web and and our
audience at large could do to further educate themselves about
the intersection between anonymity, privacy, and government surveillance. I think
(15:15):
that that the very first thing that most people need
to be aware of is that their privacy is on
a certain level in their hands, so they should the
first thing they should do is not the cavalier about
their privacy. It's kind of like watching someone else have
a car accident and saying, well, it doesn't matter how
(15:39):
I drive because I'm never going to have a car accident.
And then of course you do, because we all do um.
And it takes that collision, that that that physical um,
you know, life experience to get most people to wake
up to any kind of responsibility or change. And I
think that, you know, the notion of having to safeguard
(16:02):
your digital life is so overwhelming to most people just
figured out how to get their voicemail to work, that
it just becomes something they get resigned about and I
don't think all of this is in their hands. And
the government you know, also has to work out legislation
that makes more sense. And you know, as I said before,
reformed certain seizure laws and deal with warrants and how
(16:25):
all of those work. And I think it is to
be a bit more, a bit more let up from
the government law enforcement side, not coming down so hard
on privacy and encryption tools, which are only going to
keep getting stronger, and God knows we need them. I mean,
if you've lived through getting hacked, I have several times
your entire life completely sucked out from under you. Um
you don't need to have that to happen to you
(16:45):
more than once. Before you you start using encryption tools
and privacy tools, and you start using better passwords and
a password app, and you know, maybe encrypted text and
maybe even encrypted phone, and under certain circumstances all of what,
you're easier and easier every day. UM So I would say,
you know, first of all, it's a it's an attitude adjustment.
(17:06):
It's the attitude that you know what, this notion that
if I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to
fear is really really destructive and erroneous, and you do.
Everybody has something to hide, and you wear clothes because
you you want the privacy of of not exposing your body.
You have a door in your bathroom because you'd like
to be able to go to the bathroom in private.
(17:27):
I know that all sounds very flippant, but it really isn't.
I think that it's a very short step from that
kind of that sort of take it it as a
given notion of what privacy means to being a human being.
To your medical records, the photographs of your children, your
social Security number, your letter that you wrote to your
first girlfriend that's like scanned on your computer. You know,
(17:48):
painful family information that's gone back and forth and you
and your loved ones over the years. That those are
things that you want to hide. Fair Enough, it doesn't
mean that there's anything wrong. You're being a criminal, and
so you do have something to fear. You have both
something to find hide and something to fear. Man, Alex,
you're hitting on all these points that I was like, Okay,
here's the follow up thing. Oh no, he's getting Oh wait,
(18:10):
here's a note. Oh he's getting that too. Because we
we've covered some of this, uh, some of these topics
a lot in the past, and the reaction, immediate reaction
we get from many people is that whole I got
nothing to hide, come on that we needed The government
needs to keep us safe and they need to know
so they need to know. So. Should our audience also
be concerned with private companies buying, tracking, and selling the
(18:33):
data of us in our audience? Yes, I think that
that is is um a very big part of the problem.
UM and well, I would maintain that the law enforcement
is a coming upon them to figure out how to
do their job without dismantling my privacy. It is I
can comment as well upon corporations to figure out how
(18:55):
to you know, please their showholders and make a profit
without dismantling my private see. I think that those are
equal issues as far as the private citizens are concerned.
And these concerns bring us to a larger point a
question that we and others have continually asked, which is,
are we at some sort of Malcolm Cladwell style tipping
(19:17):
point in regard to privacy for the average person? I
guess by which I mean, are we at a point
where privacy may become extinct? Or are we at a
point where there might be a new understanding or a
new widespread appreciation of privacy. Uh No, I do not
think that we are at the end of privacy. I
(19:37):
would actually argue the exact opposite. I think that we
are about in the in the wake of the Snowden
revelations and the Sony hack, and the Target hack and
and the poor chance happening, we are at the beginning
of a boom in the privacy business. We are at
the beginning of the industrialization of privacy in the digital space.
And it will be, it will be cheap, will be ubiquitous,
(20:01):
it will be it will be uh something that the
average user doesn't have to think about, and their emails
will be able to encrypt, their phones will be able
to encrypt, their text to be able to encrypt. They
wanted to think twice about it, my grandmother will do it.
Um And that's the world that we're entering. I think,
by no means are we saying good by the privacy.
I think that on me on the opposite extreme, I
think people are about to take their privacy back in
(20:21):
a very big way. Fantastic, Thank you so much for
this opportunity, and we can't wait for our listeners to
check out the deep web. Great, thanks you guys. I
appreciate it. Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Yeah and inspiring. Now,
(20:43):
just so everybody knows, Uh, I think it's it's fairly
clear that you and I and and maybe NOL have
a horse in the race here. Of course, because we
make our living doing shows online. So ease of access
but also privacy are personal issues. Uh, you know, we
take that concern with us when we leave the office.
(21:06):
But uh, now it's time for uh, for another interview,
the interview we do at the end of every show. Now.
Oh yes, no, yes, hey Noel, did you catch the
interview we just did. I did catch it. I was
sitting here the whole time. It's true. Did uh were
there any questions that you think we we should have
(21:27):
asked Mr Winter? No, I don't think so. I mean,
you guys really seemed to cover it, and he had
some really interesting things to say. Yeah, and we're going
to see how this shakes out. We're probably gonna need
to do an update on on this after we hear
about the trial. Uh. So we've been dealing with some
big issues. Let's get to another Let's let's get to
something with a little bit of lightheartedness, a little levity.
(21:50):
What do you say, man, Yeah, this is something that
Ben and I have been discussing for a long time. Now,
we've gone We've gone back and forth through emails. We've
had a bit of a twitter war. We ought to
flame war. Um oh, man, I think I think we
just need to ask. No. Well, yeah, you know. No,
you're the tiebreaker. So whenever Matt and I disagree on something,
we we come to you when we defer to your wisdom. Okay,
(22:13):
you do it, Matt, All right. No, you're familiar with
a euro? Yes, a euro euro? Would you consider that
a sandwich? Yeah? What? No, dude, it's a wrap. Why
do you always take his side wrap? Wrap? A wrap
(22:34):
fully encompasses the sandwich material. A a euro is has
a taco at best, you know, it's like half a rap. Yeah,
I still no tacos a taco, but I mean a
euro is not a rap. I feel like you guys
are persecuting me. Okay. It has all of the requirements
(22:56):
for a sandwich, except where some people would say there's
only one piece of bread to it. It needs to
maybe needs to be What about an open face sandwich?
You guys, we're not going to solve this problem in
this episode. I think we're gonna have to ask for
our listeners input, tell us your favorite kinds of sandwiches,
(23:16):
but more importantly, uh, let us know what you think
about privacy online. It was inspiring. Uh that's the word
I keep coming back to to talk with Alex Winter
about the future of technology, and and I was, I
don't know about you, Matt, but I was, UM, it
really meant a lot to me to hear a message that, um,
(23:39):
privacy is coming back to the people. Right. Oh yeah, Well,
I I don't want to get it give anything away,
but as we said before, Bennett, I got to see
this documentary already, and there's a segment towards the end.
I won't give it away, but in interviewing some people
who are working on the very thing, that very thing
right now, and it's pretty pretty cool, I think. Uh,
(24:01):
I don't know that that made me walk away from
it with a hopeful feeling, which doesn't happen with documentaries
very often. All Right, and we hope that you enjoyed
this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. Again,
a massive thank you to Alex Winter for uh, for
giving us really a brilliant explanation. Oh yeah, all throughout
(24:23):
the interview. And oh and if you are interested in
seeing deep Web, you can check it out on epics
on the on May thirty one, that's Sunday. That's Sunday
as we record this. And we'd like to know what
you think. Is this, um, this big brother kind of stuff?
I mean, that's that's not even a theory, that's what
it is. Given the Snowdon revelations that Alex mentioned earlier.
(24:48):
Is this a necessary evil? Do world governments need this
level of scrutiny or monitoring? Right? Um, that's a tough question. Yeah,
and we'd like to hear your take on it. You
can find us on Facebook and Twitter. You can check
out This podcast is long, as well as every other
podcast we've ever done on our website, Deep Breath w
(25:11):
W dot Stuff they don't want you to know dot Com.
Oh man, that was great. I've been practicing. And if
you want to skip all that stuff and just send
us an email and tell us what you think, you
can reach us. We are conspiracy at how stuff Works
dot Com. From one on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon,
(25:31):
visit YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also
get in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
From UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello,
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and
I and Ben. Of course we are joined as always
(00:21):
by our super producer, Noel Excellent Brown and most importantly
you're here that makes this stuff they don't want you
to know. But this is not like our usual episodes, right,
Oh No, we had a fantastic opportunity. You and I
got to view a documentary that has yet to come
out almost it's almost out. We got to view it
(00:42):
a little while ago. And we just got off the
phone with somebody pretty special. Yes, our special guest today
is Alex Winter. He is the director, producer, uh, the
mastermind behind the documentary Deep Web. Alex Winter may be
familiar to m of you for his acting career as well.
(01:02):
He is Bill s Preston and Bill and Ted's Excellent
Adventure as well as Bogus Journey. He also started Lost
Boys and UH. More recently, you will recognize his two
thousand thirteen documentary Downloaded. Yes, that's the story about Napster
and Sean Fanning. Really really interesting documentary. You haven't seen it,
(01:23):
I believe if it's on Netflix, or at least it
was for a long time there. And as we put
out this podcast today on a Friday, uh, this is
the same day that Ross Olbrich, the alleged dread pirate
Roberts of the Silk Road, is being sentenced. At this time,
we have not heard what his sentence will be, but
(01:44):
we were fortunate enough to sit down with Alex Winter
who walked us through some of the biggest issues facing
the online community and the average citizen today. So the
first thing we want to know is how did you
get to this story? What led you to the deep Web?
Bud interested in online sort of growth of online communities
(02:09):
from the beginning, you know, from the eighties when I
first encountered them before the Web, and uh, it was
pretty evident at that time that you know, these communities
were going to have a massive impact, and that the
Internet in general was going to have a massive impact.
Um So I started investigating these communities, then eventually very
(02:32):
closely tracked the Master rise and fall, and I was
able to make a movie about that story which was Downloaded,
which was mostly looking at Master from the position of
global community and and it's and it's the implications of that.
And so frankly, when I learned about the Silk Road,
it seemed like here was the next kind of watershed
(02:54):
moment in the kind of rise of global communities online.
This was the first scale, doable meeting. A lot of
people were using it. UM. There wasn't just a rarefied
one off with a handful of people on. It was
a scaling community. But it was anonymous, and that was new.
So it was an anonymous community in a hidden corner
(03:14):
of the Internet using a cryptocurrency that could be anonymized,
which is bitcoin UM. And they were it was mostly
being used for buying and selling trucks UM, and so
that seemed like a good place to um to make
a movie. And then Ross Selfrich was arrested in October,
and at that point I chose to focus the story
(03:35):
on on his his case specific So Matt, at this point,
we're already hitting on one of the big issues in
the Deep Web film, which is anonymity on the Internet. Right,
I think we've talked about a lot, right, Yeah, And
so we also asked Alex about this anonymity, the the
(03:57):
unknown things there and we who dread Pirate Roberts is
a question that a lot of people have been wondering. Right.
You know the movie is about is as much about
unknowns as it is about knowns, Right. I mean, that's
what's interesting about it is what do we know? And
so what I wanted to do was raise very pointed questions,
(04:19):
which is, how do we enforce law and tried cases
in the digital age? Um? You know, can and will
radical technologies change policy, including drug war policy? Um? You know,
what is privacy today? And how um does it impact
(04:40):
the average citizen, you know, whether they're able to retain
privacy and then how much privacy they should retain? Um,
usual all questions that that um kind of strike at
the heart of the solkerp case. So they were you know,
questions I wanted to raise. I certainly didn't want to
answer them, and I don't believe they're actually our answers
for pretty much any of them at the moment. But
(05:01):
I think you're very good questions to raise. Yeah, and uh,
we agree. One of one of the things that I
had read in an earlier interview you had done was
the concept of an bitcoin and the economic ecosystem. Uh,
the idea of a cryptocurrency anonymized as well. And what
(05:22):
we were wondering is, uh, what effect would you, um,
would you estimate that bitcoin may have in the future,
especially regarding current existing currencies. UM, I think massive. I
think cryptocurrencies, whether it's Bitcoin or some other protocol, are
are here to stay. I think they're I'm not like
(05:44):
a bitcoin evangelists. I'm not one of these sort of
hedge fund people that you know, believes its goal to
point oh um. But I think in a much more
mundane way, it's um. It has a lot of really
important uses micro nations that are able to circumvent putitive
fees for moving money around the world. That makes a
really big difference to your economy if you're a small nation.
(06:05):
Bitcoin has really helped those economies in Africa and other places. Um.
You know, the need for a much more streamlined form
of digital currency is very useful there. And then you
get into this whole other area with the blockchain and
the underlying technology behind bitcoin and the blockchain as a
whole host of uses, contracts and all sorts of things
(06:26):
that I think are we're going to see are going
to become the engine for other technology. And so I
certainly while not thinking that bitcoin is is, you know,
it is something that makes me excited because I think
I think it's going to make me rich. I do
think it's it's a huge mistake to underestimate, uh, the
significant changes that are going to come as a result
of technologies like bitcoin. So one of the central issues
(06:48):
in this film are drugs, just in culture and specifically
the Silk Road, this anonymous place where you could go
and buy drugs online, and we wanted to ask Ali
how this pertains to the larger context of the war
on drugs in general. Well, I think that that technology
um is continually changing policy, you know, and you know,
(07:12):
the Internet is has a an ability to to speak
for large numbers of people that may not have had
a voice otherwise. So technology is the Internet is a
very good litmus test for the kind of the voice
of the people, as it were. And I think we're
seeing a lot of issues come into play because of
the Internet UM that relates to the Silk Road story.
(07:36):
The drug war is certainly one of them. People feel
the drug wars of failure and not four decades. It's
very expensive, it largely results in and filling our prisons
with non violent offenders. And there's a lot of resistance
to the drug war, and a lot of people in
the tech community believe that the Internet community believed that
technology can help change policy around drugs. And then there's
(07:56):
also privacy and anonymity tools, and it kind of growing
movement around the belief that people are too vulnerable on
the Internet and that there should be more privacy and
anonymity online that would prevent things like the Sony hack
from happening, and you know the Target and at the
Blue Cross hacks. So those are also areas where people
are taking matters into their own hands and creating technologies
(08:17):
so that they can help change things and give them
tools that they want. Um. As is often the case
in in sort of bleeding edge progressive or idealistic movements
like this, they're often either in direct opposition to the law,
or ahead of the law or beyond the law. Um
And that's where we encounter with the silk growth. So
(08:39):
here is one of the biggest questions that here are
some of the biggest questions that people have, which is
how did Uncle Sam managed to get into the silk road.
How did they narrowed down or find Ross albrick and
(09:02):
what if anything to do these kinds of techniques have
to do with stuff like Operation Anymous Well, Operation anymous
was not about the Silk Road. Operation Anonymous was a
year after Ross was arrested, and it was it was
it took down the second Silk Road, silk Road two
and the number. It was a global initiative between US
(09:23):
and international law enforcement agencies, and that was targeting documents
the darknet sites around the world, and the Silk Road too, um,
which was just a copycat of the first Silk Road,
just like you had Kazan lime Wire and you're telling
all these copycasts after Master went down. UM, that's what
(09:44):
that was, and that's what the Aonymous thing was. The UM.
The finding of the Silk Road servers in the case
of Silk Road one has been a matter of debate
since it was first a matter of record in the
court system. And we don't have a and fast answer
to how those servers were located, and we may never
have a hard and fast answer to how they were located,
(10:06):
and maybe a perfectly reasonably legal answer, it's just we
haven't been provided with one. And this UH This kind
of goes back to the earlier point you had made
about how many unknowns exist in the situation. Uh. To
go back to our question about law enforcement on the web,
one of the big questions that we and a lot
(10:27):
of our audience had is is it possible to enforce
the law in a global digital community. It's very very challenging. Um.
You know what needs to primarily happen, which I would
argue is happening, It's just happening slowly because there's an
enormous amount of bureaucracy. Is there needs to be massive
(10:47):
reform in search and seizure laws in the digital age?
There needs to be massive reform in the legislative process
and the constitutional process for what constants who it's appropriate?
Uh Uh, you know, penetration of people's um, you know
digital space and UM. That needs to happen with a
(11:09):
warrant and how that warrant has obtained needs to be
worked out in a in an adequate manner. And it's
it's getting there. It's just getting there slowly. The use
changes have come very very fast, and they are very
big changes. And uh, certain aspects of law enforcement are
well ahead of the curve. Let's not forget the government
basically built the Internet. Um, and the government also paid
(11:31):
for a tour and the tools that created the darknet
all come from the government and government agencies. So it's
not like they're completely behind the ball. But the government
is big and it's and it's multi pronged. Right. So
just because intelligence communities maybe really a depth in the Internet,
it doesn't mean it. Civilian law enforcement is a dept
at these technology tools. So there's like a big game
of catch up that's going on, and that's kind of
(11:52):
what we're watching happening. So on the day that this
podcast will go live, it's going to be this Friday,
that's the day that Russell is going to be sentenced,
and we're reading the prosecution asked the judge to send
a message with this sentencing. Um, what what do you
think that message is going to be? You know, they
(12:14):
it was a very it's a very interesting thing. I mean,
I think that the prosecution is being extremely frank Frankly,
I think that you know, I was in the courtroom
for some of the trial and it was very clear
that their intention, you know, which many people agree with,
is to make an example of Ross and to say
to the entire darkness community and the black market community,
(12:36):
if you do this, you'll be punished to the fullest
extent of the law. UM. I don't think it's a
very common thing where you'll actually see the prosecution literally
say that in print. You know, you know they're thinking it,
but it was you know, interesting that they actually came
right out and said it. Um. Uh not even come
from the District attorney's office actually, but regardless, uh, you know,
(12:59):
it's a it's a direct proclamation, it's a declaration of
war against um, you know, the darknet markets. UM. It's
a tricky thing, right because whatever we want to say
about Ross and what Ross did or didn't do, he
didn't create the ensuing drug markets, and he's not responsible
for what's going on um in those markets. So hopefully
(13:23):
the judge will not uh tack more time onto his
sentence for crimes that he didn't commit. It would be unfair. UM.
But I think that really the message underlying all of
this is just we feel we, meaning you know, the
government law enforcement, feel very threatened by rapidly evolving technologies
that we can't control. UM. We feel very threatened by
(13:45):
the criminality that can occur within those technologies, and because
it's very difficult for us to police that world, because
it's very difficult for us to catch people in that world.
When we do catch one, we really need to present
them to everybody and then and then make an example
out of them. And I think that's what the letter
is saying, So, Alex, one of the toughest things for
me in watching this documentary was seeing brouss Older's parents
(14:09):
and how they reacted to the whole situation, how they're
dealing with it in in almost real time. UM, I
can't I couldn't help but feel terrible for them. I know,
I know, I agree. UM, I think that you know
for me, and I think it comes across in the
movie is I have a great deal of compassion for
Rossy's family. You know, how can you not? And they're
(14:29):
caught in a really, really horrible situation and they're having
to educate themselves around extremely complex ideas very quickly. UM,
how can you not have compassion for them? It doesn't
mean you side with with um one side of the other.
You know, you follow what you know, and in this case,
what we know is very little. I think that's pretty
clear in the movie, but you can absolutely have compassion
(14:53):
for those people, which we did. Yeah, we we love
gray areas on this show, and that's kind of what
it's talking about. So here's another question. What do you
think that the audience of Deep Web and and our
audience at large could do to further educate themselves about
the intersection between anonymity, privacy, and government surveillance. I think
(15:15):
that that the very first thing that most people need
to be aware of is that their privacy is on
a certain level in their hands, so they should the
first thing they should do is not the cavalier about
their privacy. It's kind of like watching someone else have
a car accident and saying, well, it doesn't matter how
(15:39):
I drive because I'm never going to have a car accident.
And then of course you do, because we all do um.
And it takes that collision, that that that physical um,
you know, life experience to get most people to wake
up to any kind of responsibility or change. And I
think that, you know, the notion of having to safeguard
(16:02):
your digital life is so overwhelming to most people just
figured out how to get their voicemail to work, that
it just becomes something they get resigned about and I
don't think all of this is in their hands. And
the government you know, also has to work out legislation
that makes more sense. And you know, as I said before,
reformed certain seizure laws and deal with warrants and how
(16:25):
all of those work. And I think it is to
be a bit more, a bit more let up from
the government law enforcement side, not coming down so hard
on privacy and encryption tools, which are only going to
keep getting stronger, and God knows we need them. I mean,
if you've lived through getting hacked, I have several times
your entire life completely sucked out from under you. Um
you don't need to have that to happen to you
(16:45):
more than once. Before you you start using encryption tools
and privacy tools, and you start using better passwords and
a password app, and you know, maybe encrypted text and
maybe even encrypted phone, and under certain circumstances all of what,
you're easier and easier every day. UM So I would say,
you know, first of all, it's a it's an attitude adjustment.
(17:06):
It's the attitude that you know what, this notion that
if I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to
fear is really really destructive and erroneous, and you do.
Everybody has something to hide, and you wear clothes because
you you want the privacy of of not exposing your body.
You have a door in your bathroom because you'd like
to be able to go to the bathroom in private.
(17:27):
I know that all sounds very flippant, but it really isn't.
I think that it's a very short step from that
kind of that sort of take it it as a
given notion of what privacy means to being a human being.
To your medical records, the photographs of your children, your
social Security number, your letter that you wrote to your
first girlfriend that's like scanned on your computer. You know,
(17:48):
painful family information that's gone back and forth and you
and your loved ones over the years. That those are
things that you want to hide. Fair Enough, it doesn't
mean that there's anything wrong. You're being a criminal, and
so you do have something to fear. You have both
something to find hide and something to fear. Man, Alex,
you're hitting on all these points that I was like, Okay,
here's the follow up thing. Oh no, he's getting Oh wait,
(18:10):
here's a note. Oh he's getting that too. Because we
we've covered some of this, uh, some of these topics
a lot in the past, and the reaction, immediate reaction
we get from many people is that whole I got
nothing to hide, come on that we needed The government
needs to keep us safe and they need to know
so they need to know. So. Should our audience also
be concerned with private companies buying, tracking, and selling the
(18:33):
data of us in our audience? Yes, I think that
that is is um a very big part of the problem.
UM and well, I would maintain that the law enforcement
is a coming upon them to figure out how to
do their job without dismantling my privacy. It is I
can comment as well upon corporations to figure out how
(18:55):
to you know, please their showholders and make a profit
without dismantling my private see. I think that those are
equal issues as far as the private citizens are concerned.
And these concerns bring us to a larger point a
question that we and others have continually asked, which is,
are we at some sort of Malcolm Cladwell style tipping
(19:17):
point in regard to privacy for the average person? I
guess by which I mean, are we at a point
where privacy may become extinct? Or are we at a
point where there might be a new understanding or a
new widespread appreciation of privacy. Uh No, I do not
think that we are at the end of privacy. I
(19:37):
would actually argue the exact opposite. I think that we
are about in the in the wake of the Snowden
revelations and the Sony hack, and the Target hack and
and the poor chance happening, we are at the beginning
of a boom in the privacy business. We are at
the beginning of the industrialization of privacy in the digital space.
And it will be, it will be cheap, will be ubiquitous,
(20:01):
it will be it will be uh something that the
average user doesn't have to think about, and their emails
will be able to encrypt, their phones will be able
to encrypt, their text to be able to encrypt. They
wanted to think twice about it, my grandmother will do it.
Um And that's the world that we're entering. I think,
by no means are we saying good by the privacy.
I think that on me on the opposite extreme, I
think people are about to take their privacy back in
(20:21):
a very big way. Fantastic, Thank you so much for
this opportunity, and we can't wait for our listeners to
check out the deep web. Great, thanks you guys. I
appreciate it. Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Yeah and inspiring. Now,
(20:43):
just so everybody knows, Uh, I think it's it's fairly
clear that you and I and and maybe NOL have
a horse in the race here. Of course, because we
make our living doing shows online. So ease of access
but also privacy are personal issues. Uh, you know, we
take that concern with us when we leave the office.
(21:06):
But uh, now it's time for uh, for another interview,
the interview we do at the end of every show. Now.
Oh yes, no, yes, hey Noel, did you catch the
interview we just did. I did catch it. I was
sitting here the whole time. It's true. Did uh were
there any questions that you think we we should have
(21:27):
asked Mr Winter? No, I don't think so. I mean,
you guys really seemed to cover it, and he had
some really interesting things to say. Yeah, and we're going
to see how this shakes out. We're probably gonna need
to do an update on on this after we hear
about the trial. Uh. So we've been dealing with some
big issues. Let's get to another Let's let's get to
something with a little bit of lightheartedness, a little levity.
(21:50):
What do you say, man, Yeah, this is something that
Ben and I have been discussing for a long time. Now,
we've gone We've gone back and forth through emails. We've
had a bit of a twitter war. We ought to
flame war. Um oh, man, I think I think we
just need to ask. No. Well, yeah, you know. No,
you're the tiebreaker. So whenever Matt and I disagree on something,
we we come to you when we defer to your wisdom. Okay,
(22:13):
you do it, Matt, All right. No, you're familiar with
a euro? Yes, a euro euro? Would you consider that
a sandwich? Yeah? What? No, dude, it's a wrap. Why
do you always take his side wrap? Wrap? A wrap
(22:34):
fully encompasses the sandwich material. A a euro is has
a taco at best, you know, it's like half a rap. Yeah,
I still no tacos a taco, but I mean a
euro is not a rap. I feel like you guys
are persecuting me. Okay. It has all of the requirements
(22:56):
for a sandwich, except where some people would say there's
only one piece of bread to it. It needs to
maybe needs to be What about an open face sandwich?
You guys, we're not going to solve this problem in
this episode. I think we're gonna have to ask for
our listeners input, tell us your favorite kinds of sandwiches,
(23:16):
but more importantly, uh, let us know what you think
about privacy online. It was inspiring. Uh that's the word
I keep coming back to to talk with Alex Winter
about the future of technology, and and I was, I
don't know about you, Matt, but I was, UM, it
really meant a lot to me to hear a message that, um,
(23:39):
privacy is coming back to the people. Right. Oh yeah, Well,
I I don't want to get it give anything away,
but as we said before, Bennett, I got to see
this documentary already, and there's a segment towards the end.
I won't give it away, but in interviewing some people
who are working on the very thing, that very thing
right now, and it's pretty pretty cool, I think. Uh,
(24:01):
I don't know that that made me walk away from
it with a hopeful feeling, which doesn't happen with documentaries
very often. All Right, and we hope that you enjoyed
this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. Again,
a massive thank you to Alex Winter for uh, for
giving us really a brilliant explanation. Oh yeah, all throughout
(24:23):
the interview. And oh and if you are interested in
seeing deep Web, you can check it out on epics
on the on May thirty one, that's Sunday. That's Sunday
as we record this. And we'd like to know what
you think. Is this, um, this big brother kind of stuff?
I mean, that's that's not even a theory, that's what
it is. Given the Snowdon revelations that Alex mentioned earlier.
(24:48):
Is this a necessary evil? Do world governments need this
level of scrutiny or monitoring? Right? Um, that's a tough question. Yeah,
and we'd like to hear your take on it. You
can find us on Facebook and Twitter. You can check
out This podcast is long, as well as every other
podcast we've ever done on our website, Deep Breath w
(25:11):
W dot Stuff they don't want you to know dot Com.
Oh man, that was great. I've been practicing. And if
you want to skip all that stuff and just send
us an email and tell us what you think, you
can reach us. We are conspiracy at how stuff Works
dot Com. From one on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon,
(25:31):
visit YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also
get in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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