The Elf On The Shelf Is Part of the Surveillance State!

It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas. Ben, Matt and Noel have a special, spoiler-filled episode just for you, fellow Conspiracy Realists! You see, something strange happened over recent years: Santa, Rudolph and all the usual characters of Christmas have been joined by a new entity... a little Elf, hanging around your house from Thanksgiving to Christmas Day, and reporting your behavior to Santa Claus every single night. At first blush, this is wholesome and delightful. But... why are so many parents, experts and journalists concerned about the Elf on the Shelf? Is the Elf normalizing an Orwellian surveillance state?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
A production of iHeart Radio.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. A little bit of
a Christmas freestyle. He sees you when you're sleeping, he
knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad

(00:52):
or good. It's a new survey lent state. Hey, oh bah,
right do we pay for that? So it is beginning
to look a lot like Christmas. And we have a
special spoiler filled episode just for you, fellow conspiracy realists.
We were talking about this off air for quite some time.

(01:14):
Something strange happened over recent years. Right, and we've all
heard of Santa Claus of Rudolph and the Reindeer at all,
But around the United States and around the world, numerous
children have been introduced to a new character. You can
see one of them sitting there running the drums for Matt.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
No man, leggs, don't hit the pedals.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
He's the FCCS special Elf. We're going to talk about.

Speaker 4 (01:40):
Can he play blast beats?

Speaker 3 (01:42):
I don't know. I swear I hear sounds down here
at night though, when I'm trying to get some rest.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
Yeah, before we jump all the way in, should we
do a little like trigger warning for the children out
there that might be listening with their parents, though maybe yes,
isn't one for them.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Let's paint the scene. Yeah, I think, unannounced in homes
across the planet, keeping an eye on everybody's behavior in
advance of Christmas Day. It's often called the Elf on
the shelf, and most people love it. We're going to
dive into this because we have a bell to we
have a bell to ring, a flag, the wave of

(02:18):
bone to pick, and I love what we're setting up.
The disclaimer here because yeah, Laker Palnole was saying, this
may not be appropriate for all the kiddo conspiracy realists
in the crowd.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
I mean you're gonna find out one way, you know,
sooner or later, one way or another, but maybe that's today,
and maybe not make it our fault, so the parents
don't send us angry emails. But yeah, we're gonna do
some Christmas spoilers today.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
A little bit. The good thing is, guys, this elf
thing we're gonna be talking about was introduced twenty years ago,
so there could be adults now who had these as children.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Listen, right right, this is the story of the elf
on the shelf. We'll be right back. Here are the facts,
all right. Christmas traditions. Yeah, Christmas celebrates the most famous

(03:12):
birthday in human history so far, that of a guy
named Jesus Christ. Side note, civilization did get the date wrong.
That's another story. Check out our previous episodes.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah, that's as they call a bag of badgers, a.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
Bag of badgers of today's conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
But to check out that and check out our h
our later explorations on our sister show, Ridiculous History about
holiday traditions. We can all now agree that Christmas is
an ancient holiday with pre Christian roots, commemorated all around
the world in all sorts of ways. The celebration, the

(03:53):
pitch is the same across time and space. But Thomas
Nast invented the modern image of Santa Claus right, and
the specific traditions and trappings and Christmas differ from one
place to the next, like we have. I think it's

(04:13):
fair to say we have some Christmas envy for British friends,
probably because the fun hats and the uh what they
call Christmas crackers?

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Yeah, the things you break up. I mean, I don't know, man,
I'm all about picking and choosing traditions. So if you
want to do Christmas UK style in your house, I
say go for it.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
It's like a little present that breaks. Does it make
a noise? Why is it called a cracker? Because it pops,
it pops and makes it pops old.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Treat and you do it as a team, so it's
you're not supposed to just crack the Christmas crackers by yourself. Yes,
that's a little bit screwedy.

Speaker 4 (04:48):
You know what. I was watching a video to Gordon
Ramsey showing you how to make a beef Wellington and
he referred to it when it came out of the oven.
It's just like a glorious Christmas cracker. I don't know
what he was talking about. I totally get it now.
It just looks it's like a pop with stuff.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, it's good to hear Gordon being happy.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
It's he likes Christmas, guys.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
That's before we jump into Christmas too much further. I
just wanted to mention this because we got a message
from one of our listeners, Alpha Flight, and told us
all about the Quebec Winter Carnival. That is not it's
not the same thing as Christmas, right, it's not the
same type of traditions or anything. But we learned about
this guy named, uh, what is his name, Bottom Carnival.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
He's a party guy. He's a party guy.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
He's a real party guy. And you can look at
videos of their celebrations and it does make you a
little jealous that there's something. I know, there's something to that.
Maybe we're just a little we've grown up with Christmas
as this traditious.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
It's it's normalized, you know what I mean. The uh,
the mistletoe is always greener right a world the way,
so uh, we come to these things with some outside ideas.
The the party in Quebec is awesome because it's not
necessarily Christmas. It's just in the same clindrical parking lot

(06:06):
and people always celebrate something at this time of year.
You might even see parts of Europe with raucous crampis parades.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
We we talked about crampis in the past, right is it.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Do they have the snitch thing where they will they'll
slap you with Yeah, some of them got the switch.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Harry Potter for sure.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Snitches Harry Potter, Sorry, I'm gone.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
They beat you with.

Speaker 4 (06:32):
Reeds, as does bel Who's another style on the crampis
kind of mill.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Aren't there elves in the Harry Potter verse? Two Big
Time run their very song center the Dobby Guy.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yes, okay, And we also know a lot about Yule
logs and poop logs show.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, that kind of like kind of CagA something.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yes, you got to slap the log so it poops
for you.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
And keep it warm and take care of it like
a tamagatchi so that it pulls little presents for you.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
And then we've also got Nativity scenes up the wazoo.
You know, for some people they're their favorite diorama every year.
We also want to give a personal shout out to
everyone who's Christmas traditions involve volunteering or acts of charity.
Way to go. Yes, it's a noble thing.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Good stuff. And also Shout out to the dudes working
on Matt's garage because they are putting in the they're
putting in the effort, and I'm here for it.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's one person and his name is Mark.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Serious, shout out to you. Mark is Mark with a
K or with a C.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
I believe it has a K. I'm not positive though,
I've only said it to you know, we've only said
it to each other. Another tradition I was. I had
some questions, but I think it might be worth an
episode at some point. Sure, I don't know. I didn't
know that that was like there was a.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Points around the holidays, big money raiser. They're beautiful plants,
but I've never fully understood the connection.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh dude, Oh it's huge. There's a lot of lore.
It goes back, and that's what we're talking about. You know,
we're talking about lore. We're talking about folklore. We're talking
about shared agreement and values. So the Western world, this
is not a secret, is becoming increasingly irreligious or downright secular.
But even with that, people still love these traditions, massively

(08:32):
enjoy them. I mean, they're wholesome, they're fun at the
very least, regardless of your opinions of Christmas. At the
very least, this is a time to get together and
have a hang with your friends, your family, your loved ones.
How could anyone disagree with.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
That, especially when there's guifties nifty gifties involved. Who doesn't
love a giving and receiving a nice pressy.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
This is also the time, guys, of being on your
absolute best behavior.

Speaker 4 (08:58):
Well, that's true. It's also at the end of the year,
so it is marks a time of reflection. You know,
what am I going to do differently? How am I
going to be better? How am I going to prep
for the afterlife?

Speaker 2 (09:07):
And a lot of corporations are asking themselves the same
questions that Noel just asked, right, reflecting on the end
of the year, the future ahead, what is all the horizon.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Numbers?

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Right exactly? You could argue that, in fact, we are
arguing right now. Thanks for tuning in that Christmas is
an economic necessity for the United States because every single year,
companies and corporations will spend millions of AD dollars selling
billions worth of goods, products and services. It is not

(09:43):
a conspiracy. It is true. A good holiday sales season
can literally save these.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Companies he resent. I mean, there are whole companies who
bet their entire why that's a horrible way of putting it.
You know, they really hang all of their economic successes
on that time of year. They hangle mad. Yes, especially
like video game companies or companies that are selling stuff
that's like exclusively for kids. If they don't make that

(10:13):
those Christmas numbers, then their post.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Do you think about how closely tied box office numbers
were to whatever was occurring right around Christmas, those movies
that would come out of that time and the blockbusters
they would say they still do today time.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
It is the coveted release window that's changing a bit,
unfortunately with the way streaming has absolutely boned theatrical releases,
not to mention as Netflix merger, but that still does
hold true. The biggest event based time kind of movies
of the year are Christmas Day type releases.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, again, Christmas as an economic necessity similar to war.
By the way, outside of the scope of this exploration,
but for a lot of families, let's get away from
the corporate stuff just for a second. For a lot
of families, Christmas is not even that focused on the
purported incorrect birthday of Jesus Christ. It's become more like

(11:06):
a themed family party. There's an emphasis on gift giving,
on connection, and every year this becomes a subject of
intense divisive criticism, especially for more devout adherent Christians. C
The old War on Christmas trope that used to occur
every year. Guys, hang on, my cat hates this part.

(11:27):
My cat's very, very involved in the War on Christmas. Lord,
So we're gonna give doctor vankin just one second here.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
I have a serious question for both of you guys.
Because you cats, do you one, do you have a
tree in your house? Well, because you both have cats,
do you have a tree in your house? And have
you encountered any issues with cat and tree?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Have many trees in this house?

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (11:50):
Boy?

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Me?

Speaker 4 (11:52):
None this year. I totally pooped the bed and didn't
put up any Christmas decorations this year. But in Christmas's past,
the out of cattle he likes to climb that bad boy,
So maybe that's partly why I was has attention to
do it again this year.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Carg Yeah, right, that's the one. Shout out to Cadald.
So most people, it's fair to argue, are going to
have a live and let live attitude. If you are
not hurting anyone and you're having a little wholesome party,
or you got a tradition, celebrate as you like, or
don't celebrate at all, you freaking grinch, you know what

(12:28):
I mean?

Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah, Every American, whether or not they celebrate the holiday season,
is it has to be intimately familiar with the US
Christmas traditions, which are clearly the most commercially out there ones. Yeah,
the entire world. I think just in terms of like
broadness of the way, how how widely they are known,

(12:51):
and to how commercialized they have become.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
The Tree, the carols, the Santa stuff. Marvel Comics embraced
Santa Claus way back. Technically, you know, mega level mutant,
which is how he's able to travel the world in
one night.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
He's a shape shifter. He's got to be a bit
of a shape shifter. How does he get down that chimney?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah? Well teleportation.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
What kind of power is does Santa have?

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, he's got a lot, and you got to stay
on his good side because one of his biggest powers
is orwellian omniscians. Did you guys ever hear about regional
riffs on us Christmas traditions like the pink pig.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
You talking about the little roller coaster thing. That's all
I know about. Down to the mall near where we
worked for a long time in Buckett, Georgia, there's a
thing called the pink pig, a mini roller coaster.

Speaker 4 (13:40):
P pig in any form. What's the pink pig?

Speaker 2 (13:43):
So the pink pig is this idea that you would,
at least the way I encountered it in the southeastern
part of the United States is that you would get
this candy pink pig and you had to put it
in a bag and you had to smack it with
a hammer. Check just like I'm sure I'm sure Jesus

(14:05):
loves that one.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Changers, right, So like a piggy.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Bank walk us through.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, it's a metaphorical piggy bank.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
You're just going, we're updending, Uh, the characters of the
money changers. What we're saying is there's so many very
specific traditions.

Speaker 4 (14:23):
You chicken in Japan.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, yeah, with the Christmas cake. I'm sad, guys, this
is one of the times that I'm not going to
be in Japan for Christmas. Uh, But.

Speaker 4 (14:39):
That's the deal. Yeah, they have a special like packaged
meal that you get with all the fixings and it's
absolutely enormous over there.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
With a Christmas cake, you get to order it months
in advance. Every and everybody has again these traditions, like
have you guys ever played white Elephant? Is that a
tradition in your family?

Speaker 4 (15:00):
But again, it sort of has to do with giving
sort of corny gifts or doing a bit of a
of gifts.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
House rules differing can become quite competitive. Typically you'll have
some sort of price limit, like in the US. It
will often be less than twenty bucks or less than
ten bucks. You can't spend any more than that. And
then everybody gets together, you draw numbers to determine the
order of who gets to choose a gift win uh,

(15:29):
and you learn a lot about your family.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
You can give it away, you can trade, you can
compel someone to force a trade.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Basically times without I just don't remember. Yeah, it's because okay,
oh my gosh, I'm so excited. I love doing this
with So to your question, you could tell that Matt
and I are, but we've got that seven league stare
like veterans of white Elephant Christmas.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
You got to be on your game. You got to
be on top of it. Okay, there's so much strategy involved.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
There is so much strategy. You cannot choose your number,
but you can leverage it so you can. For instance,
let's say there are twelve of you and you pull
the best number, which is what or you pull the
second best number, which is twelve. You can instead of

(16:24):
choosing a new present, you can force somebody else to
give you their open present. It.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
If someone gets a real good one and they're out
of the rotation, you can literally deprive them of that delightful.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
That's why the price limit is so important. But every
once in a while in my friend group, somebody would
throw it in, like an extra twenty dollars on whatever their
gift was, like it's against the rules. But then when
that gift would get opened, oh my god, it was
a bloodbath.

Speaker 4 (16:53):
Well, there was a lead a thing in the office
where Michael Scott gets an iPod just to absolutely screw
everybody over. Of course, he ultimately gets the iPod that
he bought, you know, because he's a bit of a jerk. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
Because what we're saying here is that economic intent and
capitalism are very tied into American Christmas. I mean this also,
this also affects non Christian families. You know, shout out
to everybody who has the tradition of getting Chinese food
on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day because historically it's the

(17:27):
only restaurant that's open. We love that that is an
American tradition. We accept. These celebrations seem constant. Generations of
families do more or less the same thing. Y're in
and year out. However, this constancy is an illusion. It
is not as ironclad as it appears, which leads us

(17:48):
to one of the newest breakout characters, Dylan, if we
could get some kind of holiday drum roll perfect to
stage it strolls, Yeah, yeah, with the day of a Reindeer.
It is the newest hottest Christmas character. The Elf on

(18:09):
the shelf.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
The sound of him being pressed to digitated from this magic.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
Sound of magic.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Okay, I saw you, Billy, there's the darkness inside you.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Matt.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
What's your ELF's name? What's your elf? Buddy? That's the
drums Tyrone? We got Tyrone. And then I think our
pal Mark.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Who's named this elf tyrone?

Speaker 4 (18:32):
Okay, we got Tyrone. You got to call him. We
have another elf in the picture.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Mark has an elf named Pizzy. The names are the names,
as always in folklore, whole tremendous power. The Elf on
the Shelf is popularized by an author named Carol Abersould
and her daughter Chonda Bell. In two thousand and five,
they wrote an objectively delightful children's book called The Elf

(19:00):
on the Shelf a Christmas Tradition. This is based on
a real life, family specific tradition that they started back
in nineteen seventy four, so not that long ago.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
So when that book originally came out, was it already
pre boxed with the elf? Like? That was like the
package deal. You got the book and you got the other.
That's how I remember it. When it first hit the scene.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
When it blew up, they started packaging it with the elf.
I think Ridge come with the Elf. Did you guys see.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
Where the first time it ever debuted was in Marietta, Georgia. Marriyetta,
Georgia's a little bookstore there. That is where Elf on
the Shelf first came into existence.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
Do you know the name of the bookstore? That's crazy.
I didn't know that. That's like literally in our backyard
here in Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, because this is an Atlanta based endeavor.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
I don't think we know the name of the bookstore,
but that's totally okay.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, unfortunately I don't know. But it was only in
two thousand and five, right, so not that long ago.
Surely the info was out there. I just couldn't when
I was doing my search for or once I've heard Marietta,
because again that's near us. But now you could find it.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, we do know we can find the lore. All right.
Here's the story. Here's what we were setting up with
names having power. According to the legend, each child has
an elf specifically assigned to them by none other than
the uber Elf himself, Santa Claus. This elf arrives on

(20:25):
Thanksgiving and it monitors children's activity in advance of Christmas.
This is an old thing. You know, there's that great
poem just before Christmas. I'm good as I can be.
This kind of thing if you're a kid. The logic
makes sense because your first question about Santa is, how
can this guy actually keep an eye on hundreds and
hundreds of millions of children around the world constantly?

Speaker 4 (20:49):
Well, also, how brilliant from the economic side of things,
to introduce a new commercialized holiday tradition right on Thanksgiving,
like we already know the window for Christmas gap you know,
its stores seems to get sooner and sooner and sooner,
like almost like immediately after Halloween.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Sometimes, yeah, save Halloween, everybody. But this has, like we
were saying, the book now comes packaged with a toy elf.
And when you get this as a family, you're encouraged
to name it, carefully, place it, and treat it as
though it is alive and genuinely watching. And you can
never touch it.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
No, no, no touching, touching, no touching. And the name
is what gives it its power. I believe another friend
of ours who's hanging with us, Jordan, said he didn't
name his elf on the shelf, so it's powerless. Sorry
to tell you, Jordan, it's completely.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
You get a name.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
You got two Jordan, you get a name too, unless
you suggesting maybe you one to have your spouse picked
the other just to keep things.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
But it's a big deal.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
It's part of the magic is don't touch it, and
you gotta give it a unique name.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
Guys. I've got a quick update here. Yeah, uh, the
first book signing for the Elf on the Shelf that
occurred at the Marietta Museum of History. So it was
not the first place of the elf appeared. It was
where the book was signed.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
That. Yeah, and they have books at the gift store
and at the gift shop, and that is a cool museum.
But there is so much more to the story of
the Elf on the Shelf. We do have some missiletoe
to kiss, we have a bell to ring, a flag
to wave, you see, Folks, some people believe this wholesome
elf is not just a cute spin on an ancient

(22:25):
holiday concept. Instead, they argue it is a normalization of
the surveillance state. And that's where it gets icy and
maybe that's our at break. Here's where it gets crazy.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
All right.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
It's weird when you think about it, Like we're saying,
according to the tradition, the elf only comes alive once
it gets a name, and when it gets the name,
it not only becomes sentient and mobile, Yeah, it gains
magical abilities.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
Dude, I always feel like that elf is watching me.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
It is right, you shoulder man, and like it's so
creepy because the thing the parents do to participate in
this is move it around every night, which inherently involved
touching it. It's only the child that isn't allowed to
touch it. But we're going to get into the whole
dishonesty of the whole thing. But it's like, that's terrifying
if there's a toy that is like in a different
position in the morning. It's like in some parents do

(23:30):
goofy stuff where it'll be like on the toilet, you know,
with like chrsy kiss, you know, and they.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
My son was kind of freaked out about it at first.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
It's a freaky thing. It should not be normalized.

Speaker 4 (23:45):
Voice.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Well, that's the idea, right, the the idea. It's a
it's a conspiracy. It's a mystery that children are introduced
to right as players in a great game. Every evening,
after the kiddos hit the hay, the elf flies back
off via Christmas Magic to the North Pole and snitches
on you to Sata Prime. This influences whether the kid

(24:11):
ends up on the Nice or Nazi list, which is
constantly being checked. It's no longer being checked twice now
it's being checked every twenty four hours.

Speaker 4 (24:19):
Yeah, he's not just bopping around in one night. He's
like going back making his report, then flying back and
then you know, doing a new delightful or terrifying pose.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
And he got Yeah, is the concept that Santa is
no longer watching us sleep, but his elves are, so
he's like outsourced. The implication missions.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
The implication is that he's franchised. Surveillance should be accepted
because before the family wakes up, boom, like we were saying,
the ELF's return, you can tell it's been on the road, right,
You could tell it had a long night because it's
in a new spot and it starts a new daily
game of hide and seek? Wake up, find the elf?

(25:01):
Where is he? He definitely is not where he was
or where they were last night. And this is this
reminds me too of a terrifying thing. Right, Hide and seek,
the children's game, you know, that's a that's an old
game too. It's an evolutionary necessity because of when towns
we get raided to teach children how to hide effectively.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
It's still a good good ability these days.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, heck yeah, my kids are masters.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
They're so yeah. My dad's a master too. We started
playing when I was around three, and the guy's still winning.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Ok Uh, he's sure.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Uh so is Colonel Kurtz. Kids are told not to
touch the elf. We we tease that at the top,
Why can't you touch the elf? Because if you do so,
you're going to compromise or taint the Christmas magic. So
if you touch the elf as a kid, if you try,
even with the best of intentions, you try to help

(26:06):
the elf hide, then you've messed up Christmas.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Christmas, So it's watching you, right. But the other thing
with the elf is that as a kid, you're encouraged
to like talk to the thing and like share what
you're feeling, maybe what we want confess, like procession relations therapy, and.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Like talking to a dancer at an adult club. You know,
im no touching, but share your soul.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
And not all kids go for that part, right, and
and a lot for a lot of kids. The the
hide and seek part of it is really like the
exciting and fun thing.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
But but well, you have.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Some kids take it so seriously, and you can find
videos online of let's say a bunch of siblings are
together and one of the children touched the elf, which
which causes such great anxiety and fear in these kids
because they believe in it so deeply. It does make
you wonder, and I think that's why we're really interested

(27:09):
in the deeper parts. Don't worry about the bang. I
think san is here early, it's smart, it's mark, but
there's there's something to the psychology of this and the
way it can potentially affect a child in the moments.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
That is happening, but also maybe in the future really
cognitive development, which we have to get to in a second,
we sure will.

Speaker 4 (27:29):
Speaking of the psychology of it too, and the belief aspects.
Do y'all have a sense of what the modern day
cutoff is for Santa Claus belief as a parent with
a young kid.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Anybody I've been kicked Yeah, I'm anybody. I've been kicked
off a couple of radio shows for that exact question.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
If you're not going to kick you off, spill it.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
I can't be kicked off.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
This is our show. If you're allowed to say yeah, thanks.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
So we we know that for that cutoff question, we
know that light studies, not deep research, but light studies
show that oftentimes children growing up at least in the
United States will become aware of the grift and then
decide to play along because it has real extrinsic rewards.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Plan along so they get the better loot, and also
sometimes playing along because perhaps they have a young sibling.
There's a whole nother calculation involved there.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Right, were you guys ever in the Santa world? Like,
did you ever believe?

Speaker 4 (28:34):
Absolutely?

Speaker 3 (28:35):
No, no, not once. No.

Speaker 4 (28:40):
I believed in well into my twenties. Oh no, no,
I'm kidding now, I was probably ten. I think I've
found a hidden Christmas present. Remember it was a Joe
cool snoopy skateboard and I found it in my parents closet.
I don't remember if I was on the hunt for it,
but that is what kind of shattered the illusion.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, it's around that, like I think eight when my
sister and I like figured out that it wasn't real,
And it was because I think it, Like every kid,
you're fascinated by the concept, and then you make that choice,
like to sneak around and see what the parents are
doing Christmas.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
In the closet. Yeah, and this is a it looks
like it's six to eight years old. Tends to be
when the conspiracy becomes revealed. We know that for kids
who believe in the mission of the Elf on the shelf,

(29:32):
it is a seasonal worker, right, so after Christmas Eve,
the ELF's mission is complete. Whatever name the elf has,
it returns to the North Pole for another year, and
it checks back with you in Thanksgiving, which means that
there are doubtlessly there are doubtlessly cases where children have
delved too deeply into the parents closet and discover the

(29:56):
elf in a box you got to hide that you
have to be better than at hide and seek than
your children got it.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
I would recommend maybe taking it off site, you know, oh,
just saying a.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Secondary location the works, you guys, it's fine. I love
the idea too, of now treating it like a thriller
or a soccer political mystery spy thing where you say, okay, okay,
Agent Tyrone, he did good work, but there's a lot

(30:32):
of heat on you right now. So we're gonna need
to We're gonna need you to relocate just to let
things die down. We'll see you on the Turkey t
whitpro give mustache and he lives a separate life.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
Really, he actually goes back. He goes back to the
Old Country. To the UK writers like the voice is
that it's almost like that. Jason Statham, So I wrote
for your presence, that kind of thing. So he loves
the concept that he escapes back to like Great Britain and.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Your boy does a voice for him? Where does he?

Speaker 3 (31:09):
It's it's no secret we do. I do a lot
of voices with my son. We were silly like that.
And he liked he liked the idea that this tiny
little elf had a deep Jason Sathamish, Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Because he's been through some stuff. I also liked the
idea of the second life in Minnetaka or somewhere in
the in the upper part of the Midwest in the
United States, and this poor ELF's kids are like, hey, dad,
why don't you ever hang out with us at the
end of the year. And he's like, I've got stuff
to do. It's the greater Christmas.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
Good dad, he's got business too much.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Job r r r row to row. I'm the only
person in Minnetolk's just accient, right. So this has been growing,
the concept of the Elf on the shelf. It's been
increasingly popular for two decades now. The trend shows no
sign of slowing. It's moved way past the original children's book.

(32:06):
It's birth the Christmas Verse, or they call it the
Santa Verse all its own. You get we're saying it.
They mcued it essentially.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
Oh and it is intense. You guys. If you want
to talk about a successful company, that's the Lumistella Company.
My goodness.

Speaker 4 (32:23):
So this is still the original folks we talked about
from the tops of the book. Okay, this is their mbire.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah. They've got an animated special at Elf Story, The
Elf on the Shelf November twenty eleven, that publishes it
gets replayed by CBS every year. There's a Netflix development deal.
In twenty twenty three, the Food Network got in on
the game with an Elf on the Shelf themed baking
reality show, which is pretty wholesome. Actually, it's a fun vibe.

(32:51):
The dolls are in different skin tones and genders. At
this point, it's really big.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
Yeah, there's a lot of you said here about it
seems wholesome and and fine. Right, and then you just
see the amount of money that it's generating. If you
look at the Santa Verse, you can go to all
the different characters and the lore they've created about the
origins of Christmas and even the origins of Saint Nicholas,
and they've got they've got a graphic novel that looks
super cool and in the end it feels to me,

(33:17):
you guys, well, I know for a fact it's about
keeping kids attention right in things like the Harry Potter
verse or something like The Lord of the Rings for
a little older crowd. When you build out an entire
universe like that, there's so much to explore, and in
this case, there are so many characters to be invested in,
to keep back and to buy. You know, now you

(33:40):
can buy a Saint Bernard that is a part of
the Santa Verse.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
It is Snoop Dogg Elf.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
The Snoop I believe.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
There's all that stuff, but they're in you're talking about
the media, ben There are even games that you can
go online and spend hours and hours playing a dozens
and dozens of games based on.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
This at what time of year it is?

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Oh yeah. And the videos, my god, there's so many videos.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
Well, and you know it's so zeitgeisted. I guess the
idea of Elf on the shelf is just absolutely I've
been absorbed that you even have, like, you know, other
religions getting on it, like the mench on the bench,
which is like the right and it is honestly a
little bit of a wink and a nod to all
the stuff we're talking about. It is very self aware

(34:26):
of the mench bench.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
And I wanted to put the focus back on you
folks who are who are probably having a wild time
listening to this episode. Thank you for joining us. At
this point you are reasonably asking, Okay, yeah, there's a
lot of goodwill here, but there's a lot of money
as well. Where's it all going? That leads us to
one of the biggest strange discoveries, the Loomis Stella Company.

(34:51):
This is what we will call the hidden hand behind
the Elf, and it was founded right here in or Home,
stated Georgia By As we mentioned, the co author the
original book, Choonda Bell and her twin sister Christa. They
founded this company the same year the original book published
in two thousand and five. They described themselves as get this, folks,

(35:15):
a Christmas focused intellectual property company.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah, okay, oh yeah, you guys remember Christmas stores? Did
you ever have one of those in your town? Up?

Speaker 4 (35:26):
Well, there's also like the weirdly year round the Christmas
Tree store. And I never understood how those existed.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
The yeah pop up like spirit Halloween.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
That's exactly some of my for sure.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:38):
Yeah, Well I've also seen ones that maybe stick around
a little longer in other states and cities. But I
know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Well, I guess my only thought here is we're going
into this company. My thought is I viewed Christmas much
like Halloween. When it comes to commerce. You can sell
stuff for that holiday in a very tight window, and
then you would be able to make a bunch of money.
If you had a dedicated, let's say, storefront that sold
specific stuff.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
For that you got it drift in and out of town.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Well yeah, and it makes sense, right because you've got
all that stuff in a warehouse somewhere. You only bring
it out for the time when people are going to
want to buy it. But then this company has figured
out a way, as you were saying, Ben, to just
make a year round. It is a whole world you
can get immersed into.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, maybe if you're a kid, you get some bonus
points if you can persuade your parents to contact the
elf a little bit earlier. The elf is in the
Thanksgiving parade. There's a live musical, one brilliant thing. To
your point, Matt is that loumis Stella also got into
birthdays back the top it all the year round. Now
you can get the Elf on the Shelf, birthday countdown game,

(36:47):
the Elf on the Shelf, birthday chair decoration kit. All
in all, we're talking.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
Yeah, yeah, decorating chairs for birthdays people. I'm here for it.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
We're talking over one hundred and fifty distinct products made
or licensed by this business alone, which is why as
of twenty twenty three, they're worth an estimated one hundred
million dollars. We're talking selling well over twenty eight million
Elf dolls, and then I got tons and tons of
licensing deals. So the elf gets the cut. The elf

(37:24):
gets a cut, for sure.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
That's an incredible amount of money on a per Elf scale.
How what's santasy cut?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Right right? You know, it's kind of like it reminds
me of the problem with starting a good ska band.
You know, now you've got now you've got eight to
twelve people in the band. How do you split the
proceeds of the concert? Right at?

Speaker 4 (37:45):
Both Oscar Isaac and Peter Dinklage were both in ska
bands before they got famous.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
I believe you it's something in the eyes.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
Yeah, saying Oscar Isaac's skodband was like a Christian ska.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Band, Wasn't that SmartLess? I feel like I heard maywhile
he's talked.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
About it, But there's there's clips out there if you
want to see as Chary Isaac with a yah.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And also, who are we to pooh pooh? Not just
Oscar Isaac's massive success, phenomenal actor, but who are we
to pooh poo the Louis Stella's massive success. I mean,
it's so gosh darn wholesome, except when you see this
success comes with surprising criticism. Psychologist, sociologist, journalist, media analyst,

(38:31):
even a few politicians say that it does not matter
how well intentioned nor how objectively fun this stuff is.
In their opinion, the elf has some uncool, sinister implications
behind all that holiday cheer.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Yeah, it seems like there's no accident that Luma Stella
and the Illuminati are a very close sounding and it's
also giving Techa the chair company vibes. Now that you've
mentioned this chair decorating kit, I don't know why my
mind immediately jumped there, but Louis Stella, that's got sinister undertones.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
But it's like it's almost like Luna. It's almost like
the moon. It's almost like like stellar, like.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
The pursuit of happiness, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
Just go, Yeah, it's it's it's it's yours to grab
if if you can reach it.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Okay, criticism, controversy, not here to ruin anybody's Christmas. But
this is the stuff they don't want you to do. First,
a lot of critics are mad about the profits. If
we go to p R O F I. T s
not not that you know, the other profits.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
The elves on the shelves are their own kind of profits.
They're you know, bringers of knowledge and wisdom and Christmas.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
You know, I don't know it, but we like that
point holds. I would argue because if we go to
folks like the columnist Kate Tuttle writing for The Atlantic,
then we see that she's not holding anything back. She
straight up calls the elf on the shelf quote a

(40:13):
marketing juggernaut dressed up as tradition, and she says it
contributes to something we were talking about just a few
minutes ago. Holiday creep.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, we're definitely talking about some holiday creeps. In today's episode,
Santa being one of them.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Well, let's really get in this, Okay, before we even
just go to what Kate said, Ben and Nol, let's
just remind people Saint Nicholas, that tradition, the concept of
Saint Nicholas, even though it did get wrapped up and
tied into Coca Cola and all of these other marketing.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
Schemes, he was a real fellow.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
It does go back to a tradition a saint, but
you know, all the way to he passed away in
three hundred and forty, So like way way back in
that tradition carried through and continued to carry through and
off off. Mike Dylan, our producer, was telling us about
some something about the weeping of Saint Nicholas's bones.

Speaker 4 (41:11):
Yes, what was leaking bone?

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Dylan? Can you can you hit us with a little
bit of a Tennessee facts about this little noon Christmas lore.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
Yeah, Saint Nicholas bone juice. Supply his bones create some
sort of liquid that the priests will put into bottles
and sell.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Ood Lord.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Okay, so that's one thing Loomis Stella has not gotten
you yet taking it. Thank you, Dylan. Uh, because I
think we're gonna have a shark take meeting with them in.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
A few I got you, guys, heaf juice, health juice.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Nothing problematic about that could be misinterpreted about that health
juice now with Kathy now with extra caffeine, yah human
and of course a lot of nias and a lot
of vitamin D. We're getting close to call it ourselves

(42:11):
out here. But uh, for journalists like Tuttle, the idea
is that the one of the objections is that the
elf on the shelf is commercializing Thanksgiving, and from her perspective,
Thanksgiving is one holiday that hasn't been sullied by quote,

(42:32):
product tie ins or foe legends unless you calculate stories
about that fabled first Thanksgiving.

Speaker 4 (42:39):
Well just also the like, you know, it's such a
gluttonous holiday, you know, I mean, I'm not it's.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Great, big turkey.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
I mean, it's terrible for that's what I'm getting.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, she says, this is blatant capitalism,
wearing sort of the sheep's wool of Christmas, and it's
less a genuine tradition and more and endless opportunity to
purchase things, which is why I'm still arguing I'm going
on this hill again. Christmas is an economic necessity in
the United States and probably throughout Western Europe.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Oh man, it's its own military industrial complex. There's no
question about it. It drives our economy, especially here in
the United States.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
Guys. We're recording this on December seventeenth. You can't really
make anything out in my background here, but that's Those
are all the gifts for the kids and the family
and everything. I haven't wrapped anything up yet, jeez, I was.
I was looking at everything there, just the number of
little things. Again, you can't even really see what it is.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
I mean, do the kids know that you have that room?

Speaker 3 (43:39):
They have no idea what's happening right now. It's awesome.
I've I've got approximately a couple of days do everything wrapped.
But sure that represents a lot of hours worked in
order to make in order to get all of that crap, to.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Make the thing, to get it here, all of the transit,
the freight.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Just how manig podcast that us translate.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
How many terrorists had to get paid right exactly?

Speaker 2 (44:07):
Man. This is also I love this point here, guys,
because if we go back to tunnel, she makes a
she and others make a a I think of related
in a pretty dangerous point says, Hey, maybe this ELF
on the shelf thing is very stressful for parents, Like,
let's exercise empathy. You know, it's a whole new era,

(44:28):
or a whole new dimension of keeping up with the Joneses.
The kids go to school, they compare notes with each
other about what their ELF is doing. And it just
breaks my heart to imagine a kid saying, what uh
these other pair these other elves are bacon cookies, they
leave other presents. Why isn't my elf as cool as Jennifer's?

(44:50):
Did I do something wrong? Or that's terrible?

Speaker 4 (44:54):
The pressure to participate in it at all. I mean,
these things ain't cheap. Get in the package?

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Is?

Speaker 4 (44:59):
I'm then what are they? They are at least like
forty dollars or more.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
It depends, It depends. The loss leader is actually the
book now, which comes you know, as we say, comes
with the plusure elf. Let's check the Pre'm just serious. Yeah,
I've got I've got a couple of the way.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
I found a first edition ELF on the shelf and
it's just the book, guys. It costs one hundred and
ninety five dollars from Abe Books.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Okay, that collect first one books are great right now,
if you're looking, you can get the paperback version for
five dollars and ninety nine cents. This is not an advertisement. No,
you're just giving you information.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
No, I don't know what. I don't really care about
the book as much. Doesn't it still come package with
the ELF?

Speaker 3 (45:44):
Or is?

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (45:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, the one that I got book and ELF five dollars.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Well that is six dollars for the and the ELF.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
I was like twenty something.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yours was twenty something. This was the paperback version, just
the six dollars one probably doesn't come with the YELF.
But also, weirdly enough, you can buy a kindle version
of the original, which it would be the purpose.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
What if you could get like a computer virus installed.
It was the ELF on the shelf, and it could
just like sneak in and just watch what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yes, the scales Christmas scaled, Oh boy, so we don't.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
But back to the keeping up. But back to the
keeping up with the joneses of this. I mean, it's
just another layer where Christmas already provides that level of
stress and anxiety, you know, to get the right Christmas presents,
because kids they compare notes on all kinds of stuff.
I mean, I've heard about kids getting bullied because they
have the stock Fortnite skins, you know. I mean it's

(46:45):
really out of control, the level of like, you know,
my parents make more money than your parents kind of
thing that can happen in school's. Kids are really susceptible
to that, and they can be pretty mean.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
That's why again we recommend not a high road anybody,
but if you have, if you have the time and
the inclination, please consider volunteering to help kids at this
time of year, or to participate in a charity.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
You don't even food drive those are around it any Yeah,
for sure, need to participating, I guess, is what I'm getting.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
We also know that other experts and journalists seem to
agree with some of the concerns we've been raising. If
you go to an article from Vox in twenty sixteen,
you'll see the journalist Kelsey mckinni who straight up says
this is the headline. By the way, folks, the elf
on the shelf is the greatest fraud ever pulled odd children.

(47:42):
I don't know, if just a.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Little hyperbolic, I's got it beat. I mean the general
Christmas season as written.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, right, that's the thing, right, because it is a
fair point, right, But it's necessary to state something we
say every year this pot got me kicked off those
radio shows. Christmas in the States has always been about
deceiving children. We note this in the book. If you
look through modern history in the United States, you'll see

(48:11):
that indeed, the story of Santa Claus is the first
conspiracy theory many American children encounter.

Speaker 4 (48:19):
And how difficult it is to not participate, to not
buy in, because then you get accused of ruining it
for everybody else. So there becomes this like societal pressure
that you ultimately really can't not participate in.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, it's rug, it's scroogey. You're not some Promethean giver
of truth when you tell a four year old it's
a grift. Now, you're just being a jerk, you know,
you're like some guy on the wrong sub reddit.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
Well but not even that is as well as just
like if your kid's not part of it and is
mixing in with other kids that are, then they're like,
I'm cast out.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Pressure on, yeah, become a pariah.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Oh yeah, it becomes a normalization of going along with
collective delusion. And I wonder how much of that is
deep within us, of just of knowing that something isn't
real or something range. But then you are you have
trained yourself to just say, oh, yeah, when when someone
talks about Sandy, you already know you just it's right,

(49:23):
you just oh, I gotta, I gotta keep with this narrative.
And then we can talk like quietly if I need
to talk to somebody about that or in secret, but
I can't just outwardly say this is bull yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
And then on the other side it takes to the beep.
On the other side, you've got people who are so
on board with this that they they're getting culture war
about it. They're going First they came for the elves,
and I didn't say anything. It wasn't an elf. Then
they came for Santa, and I didn't say anything because
I'm not Santa. So where now instead of price the

(50:00):
Christmas thing, someone has to take a stand a rump
for rump for rump, the root off right right right,
he's the third man on the hill, you know what
I mean. This gets us to the biggest concern, the
one that inspired our episode tonight, the surveillance state. If
you go to folks like Hank Stever writing for the

(50:22):
Washington Post, you'll see an objection that he shares that
a lot of other people share, where they say the
ELF is just another nanny cam in a nanny state
obsessed with penal codes.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
Ooo. Yeah, it feels that way. And I do wonder
how many kids these days grow up with an ELF
on the shelf. But then also indoor security cameras, you know,
the ones that have like a shutter or something, but
they're in your living room and they will watch your
house when you're not there, or sometimes maybe even when
you're there, And like just that normalization of twenty four

(50:57):
to seven, I am being watched at all times.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah, Hank continues writing for the Post. He says, quote,
as long as you believe in him, the Pixie Scout
ELF is no different than the store security camera and
the gizmo that automatically generates speeding tickets. The tattletale elf
who reports back to corporate Christmas machines fits right in
with our times. It's the idea of normalizing non consensual,

(51:22):
constant surveillance and not just making it normal, but making
it seem appropriate, desirable, aspirational fun.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Yeah, there's that word fun.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Oh boy. I don't know if fun is a compliment anymore.
I don't know about everybody else, but often now when
I hear someone being described as the fun in conversation, yeah,
it's a little denigrating. It's little.

Speaker 4 (51:50):
Yeah that's fun.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Oh you're so fun.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
There's the thing, what do you tell me? What you
guys think when someone you tell someone you're going to
go do something like, hey, I'm popping out at the
store to go grab some stuff, and then the response
you get is okay, have fun. I feel like, like, what,
I'm gonna go do some stuff or I'm gonna go
work right now, I'm not gonna go have fun. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
This is why I'm asking about the fun thing, Matt,
because it's kind of in the use case you're describing,
it comes off as the spoken version of a thumbs
up emoji. Hmm, you know what I mean. Like, there's
not hate behind it. It's not as condescending as saying, oh,
this person is fun, but it is it is. I

(52:33):
don't know. I mean, how what's our alternative if someone says, Hey,
I'm gonna go pop out to the store and grab
some things. D you say, okay, journeys, Okay, trash journeys.
May the fortunes favor you. May the wind be at
your back.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
Krogers, May the force be with you.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Let's start doing that. Let's let's get high faluting, high
dramatnes whenever we're talking about little casual things.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
But also sarcastics like may you.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
We'll figure out where we are at various spectrums, right
right right, The elf says, your fun We know that
privacy overall. No, this is the serious part is it's
kind of a recent concept. It's already eroding the information age.

(53:23):
Astonishing technological breakthroughs. They've all made it increasingly difficult to
keep some information to yourself. As a matter of fact,
there's some pretty exciting and terrifying research that's come out
showing the ability of new diagnostic devices to read people's
thoughts you think of, you know, think of a Rubik's

(53:47):
cube in your head. They can you can be wired
up to a machine that will reproduce the image. Yay.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
It reminds you that stuff we were learning about Wi
fi's capabilities. If you modify them just a little bit,
you can get your modem slash router system to see
who's in the house, and yeah, you could turn.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Wi Fi to Daredevil.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Well, it is weird, man, with all we've talked about
so many times on this show, but with all the
technical technological upgrades and all our systems that have cameras
in them now at all times that we use pretty
much twenty four to seven, not all of us, but
this guy at least does constant. Well, there's this video.
They can see that now.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Hey, yeah, welcome folks, thanks for coming. I'm sorry that
my background looks like a Dexter level Kilbert, but we'll
work on that.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
It looks fantastic and it's only going to get even cooler.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
That's so nice.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
But the whole point is we had tons of privacy
back when we had windows that you could cover up,
like actual physical windows and doors you could lock. Sure,
we were great, but then we let all this stuff
in around us. Yeah, including these dang elves, including these elves.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
That's right, We're not giving up the l thing. No,
not everybody thinks. The erosion of privacy, which again is
a pretty short, short term concept right now. Uh, the
modern version of privacy wasn't really a thing for a
long time, a lot of people are gonna tell you
it's not a bad thing. The old argument goes, hey,

(55:18):
if you're not doing something wrong, why are you worry
you're not doing something wrong? Why you got a problem
with the camera in the bathroom? You know what I mean?
It monitors you of moisture.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
Oh dear, I think that's an additional ringing feature, the
moisture monitor.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
And Ben's joking there, but there are there. We talked
previously on the show about the new what is it
the new security systems that have microphones in the bathrooms
like schools and libraries and government buildings where they are
monitoring to make sure there's no you know, chaos or
something dangerous happening in that bathroom.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
They said, the video is bad, but the audio is five.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
Well, so the theory here is that this is just
a opening of that normalization of this idea of always
being watched and just like weaponizing it in a to
return to our previous fun way. You know this, let's
make it fun, you know, you know for kids, right,
and you don't have an elf when you get used
to it, as Matt was saying earlier, from such an
early age, you've trained yourself to go along with the lie.

(56:21):
Whether you you know eventually the spell is broken, you
still go along with it for the benefit of others,
for the greater good. This is just a furthering of
that mentality that is now sold to kids and parents
at an even younger age, potentially because I seem to recall,
like elf on the shelf even is popular with like infants.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very much so, because for
the first couple of years of a kid's birthday in
the United States, you're kind of buying presents for the parents.
This this is an important thing we don't want to lose,
not just the normalization but the weaponization of social dynamics.
Oh you don't have an ELF. I thought your parents

(57:02):
loved you. Your parents not like you.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
It's a weird feeling because I didn't give into the
pressure just personally, guys here until two years ago. No, yeah,
two years ago, I didn't give into the pressure to
get in ELF, and all of a sudden I did.
And it happened to be right at the time when
my son was ready to like give it up and
say that this is this is dumb. We don't need
to do this. But for that one year. It was
kind of fun and magical and exciting, and there was

(57:30):
a lot of joy coming from this elf thing. But now,
especially after researching for this episode, I feel weird about it.
It just that I did it at all.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah, I feel you.

Speaker 4 (57:41):
I just did a cursory google and there's the thing
called a PIP, which is a baby elf for infants.
The idea being that these baby elves haven't developed their
magic yet, so it's okay for them to be touched.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
It's normalization of a surveillance state. I mean, the argument
of privacy proves pretty flimsy when we spin out the
real world's consequences, right, because a surveillance state obsesses over
not just present but past activity and attempts to leverage

(58:13):
that information to push people towards certain beliefs, right, to
push them towards certain actions, and attempting to predict their
future behavior. So what if you anonymously attend a protest
a few years ago and back when you go to
this protest, the protest is legal, but laws change right

(58:34):
from the time you went to the time you exist. Now,
Uncle Sam or insert government here says, hey, attending this
protest was illegal, even though you were there years and
years back when it wasn't a crime. Now you are guilty.
The past can be leveraged against you, you know, and
this goes really dark really quickly. You're a member of

(58:55):
a demographic or a group that gets demonized, like say
a law changed and LGBTQ people are getting rounded up,
and you never publicly identified as a member of that
community or related communities. But there's massive snooping into your
private life, your habits, your communications. It prompts government action
against you. The Elf on the shelf is, according to critics,

(59:19):
part of a slippery slope into normalizing that kind of
acceptance and compliance, for sure.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
But it's also just a toy. It's just a marketing
can company, and it's weird to think about it that
way because it it can things can be two things
at once, or we we know this things. Something as
simple as a commercialized toy can be quite complicated in

(59:50):
its meaning and.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Thin as you think about which normalizes militarization.

Speaker 4 (59:58):
I was listening to us I think it was I
remember who it was, but podcast recently where someone was
pointing out that g I. Joe's only shot laser weapons.
They didn't shoot bullets. And it wasn't until there was
apparently a Rambo cartoon that was the first like kids
cartoon franchisey thing that they actually had real bullets.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Oh my god, imagine that movie Rambo, and then imagine
somebody going, you know what we need to do, well,
then we need to make a children These.

Speaker 4 (01:00:25):
Were like very intense satires that were then co opted
into children's toys and by the time you get to
the third RoboCop movie, it's PG and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
For kids, let's let's Christmas. Uh, let's Christmas up this
one as well. You know they drew first ill or whatever,
they drew first ticket o white Elephant. We can obviously
hear a couple of us in the audience tonight who
are saying, with some validity, Hey, this is you're you're

(01:00:53):
making a mountain out of a lovable cultural mole hill.
It's not that deep. We can dismiss these hot takes.
Is just a themera. But academics are in the game too,
folks like Ontario Tech's Laura Elizabeth Pinto. Professor Pinto says
the popularization of the elf is essentially pro Big Brother propaganda,

(01:01:15):
teaching children that it's okay for other people to spy
on you and you are not entitled to privacy. In fact,
it's kind of uncool if you like it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Ew you like privacy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Oh my god, Darren doesn't even have a phone.

Speaker 4 (01:01:35):
Back to the point about th uh, you know, Santa
Claus incorporation into one's life, Like if you don't do
it and you don't play, then you're around kids that do,
and then all of a sudden you're like an other
you know. I mean it's the same deal like having
a phone or being off the grid. How difficult is
it for us? As much as we might want to
not buy into social media or buy into any of
this kind of technology, it starts to make your life

(01:01:57):
really difficult if you yes, you push that or you
toe that line super hard.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah, kind of like the sci fi film Gadiga. They
didn't make it illegal not to genetically modify your children,
but they made it so inconvenient that you couldn't afford
to have children the natural way. Everybody check out Gadiga.
It's not really Christmas movie.

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
It could be a Christmas movie if you try hard enough.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
There's a movie about new beginnings.

Speaker 4 (01:02:27):
Yeah, endings.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
You know, it's got Jude Law. He went to some
Christmas stuff at some point, I'm sure, so we've kept
Kevin Bacon that connection. Professor Pinto, who's her. Her article,
The Elf on the Shelf and the Normalization of Surveillance
is available in full wherever you want to read it.
She is arguing that the elf is a gateway drug

(01:02:50):
to accepting surveillance, essentially saying, if I grew up with
that adorable elf watching me, is the NSA really all
that different? Isn't it just another kind of elf? Don't
I want to be good with my Christmas gift being
not getting locked up?

Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
I do, ben, I do, I really do want to
be good. But interestingly, Professor Pentoth also sees something even
more sinister at place here, kind of outlining some further
escalation of these kind of rules of engagement where children
normally get to physically interact with toys and games. However,
in this case, no touching is the key to the
magic that is the elf. Therefore, it's like almost this

(01:03:30):
hands off approach, like pay no attention to the man
behind the curtain, you know, the NSA or whomever else
is you know, horning in on your privacy, and it's
just teaching you to like totally be okay with that,
but also to mind your mind your manners.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Yeah yeah, your p's and your cues. Your Lovable Christmas
Spy is beyond reproach, beyond criticism, beyond question. It watches
non negotiably, and if you want your end of the
year rewards, you comply, You fall in line. This is
called an extrinsic reward system. If you get a the

(01:04:05):
best way to put it will go to Dan Knows
what's like. I like the way he writes this for vice.
He says, if you get a gold star for reading
a book like we would get a personal pan pizza
from book it. Yeah, boy, if you get that, that's
an extrinsic reward. You are encouraging more reading by getting

(01:04:25):
a gift or a little buff, a little perk at
the end.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
But they do that with candy all the time in
a ton of schools.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Now they do it with candy with adults. Dude, in
Japanese hotels. They'll give you candy if you act good.
I love it. They got me. They got me on.

Speaker 4 (01:04:43):
That Japanese candy is pretty awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
And the opposite of this, the one that the idea
that psychologists tend to favor or look upon more favorably,
is an intrinsic reward, right, doing the thing for the
sake of having the thing done. So if you just
decide you like to read books and you don't need
a gold star or a personal pan pizza, then you

(01:05:07):
are reading for an intrinsic reward. So to our earlier question,
the concern here is whether this affects kids' psychological development.
If you're teaching kids to comply with social expectations, not
because it's the right thing to do, but because it's
a way to snag sick toys, how much further does

(01:05:30):
this go? Does it affect their decisions later in life?
I mean, it's far from an original sin. It's kind
of the heart of how capitalism works.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Right yeah. Oh man, the think about how strong it
is with the gamification of everything nowadays, just all of
those micro rewards that you get.

Speaker 4 (01:05:46):
Doing something for the sake of doing it, for the enrichment,
of doing it for the way it makes you feel,
versus getting a thing. Yes, okay, and that's again like
even like the fitness trackers of it all, Like it's
everything is gamified thing gives you those little dopamine rushes,
and you could argue that that's cool if it helps
you exercise more, if it helps you get more steps

(01:06:08):
in there there is a world where some of these
extrinsic rewards aren't inherently bad.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Right, Yeah, agreed. You know, if there's something that motivates
you to better your life, your personal health, to connect
with communities, or accomplish goals, then that gamification can be
a powerful tool. I mean also, clearly this is not
a hit piece. We're not dunking on the elf. Some
parents do swear by this. They say, hey, that visual

(01:06:38):
presence of that elf on the shelf or wherever it
may be, that helps my kids behave Also, the lessons
these kids learn can maybe make them a little more
conscientious in the future. So we see multiple sides of this.

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
Obviously, the creators of this whole thing have benefited from
it financially, you know, in exorbitant amounts. Think they saw
this whole world when they initially kind of had that
family tradition that they then decided to turn into a
thing they could sell.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
It's a good question.

Speaker 4 (01:07:10):
Listen, and do you think it's it's inherently about behavior,
or is it just a fun little thing that then
got kind of co opted and made into this much
larger thing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
Yeah, it was a family tradition, right, So yeah, so
it started in that way and it was just kind
of a fun thing, right. But then one of the
two sisters who runs the company was a marketing expert,
was very very good at marketing. So I just imagine
that that person in particular had a vision of, Hey,

(01:07:42):
this is a fun thing we're doing. What if we
expanded and then just moved on from there. But that's
speculation on my part.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Seems seems very like you could have a lot You
can find a lot of interviews with these folks who
went on to found loumis Stella. What I like about
your question there, Nol, is that we have to remember
the long term, longitudinal stuff. Twenty years is not a
huge span of time in the great scheme of things,
So regardless of anybody's personal stance, worries, or fandom, it

(01:08:12):
is going to take a few more decades to see
whether this elf phenomena has any measurable impact on the
wide scale acceptance of surveillance. You know, you could even
say that some of these critics might be projecting their concerns, right,
they're large or more abstract concerns onto something that is
more tangible, more physical, something with a face. Right. People

(01:08:35):
love putting a face on fear.

Speaker 4 (01:08:37):
And the reality of it is that these methods of
surveillance aren't going anywhere. So it's almost in the best
interest of people's mental health to kind of find their
way to accepting some aspects of it. Lest you just
like lose sleep every night and be terrified that Uncle
Sam or a big brother or the NSA or whomever,
or Santa Claus is watching you. You know, it's about

(01:09:00):
how we adapt to allow ourselves to move forward in
the in the present that we are presented with.

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
Right. Yeah, in order to function, you really do have
to suspend your disbelief in some way that when I've
got my cameras uncovered and I'm using my phone and
I'm just going about my day, and my televisions have
cameras in them, like, you have to suspend your disbelief
that nobody else is watching you, Right, You have to pretend.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Participation in the collective myth called civilization and society. One
of our favorite historical examples of this is driving on
the interstate and pretending that those lines are not just paint, right, say, oh,
I hope no one swerves today, or I hope they
put out a little holiday light to let me know

(01:09:50):
it win.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
Except the reality is everything is what we choose to
agree upon, and the people that get become those outliers
are the ones that can't get in line or agree
to what we agree upon, and then they kind of
get cast out of society, or at the very least
people don't want to hang out with them because they're

(01:10:12):
can seen as weird or problematic.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
Right where they get you know, eleven other people who
agree with them, and then they make their own thing.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
Start a cult, you know, a what's the word self
sustaining community.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
It's a cult. It's only a cult to a certain threshold. Right,
Eventually you could just use capital are religion.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
If one person's terrorists and other's freedom, another's minister.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Yeah, and obviously I don't want to go back to
this point you you were teasing there. No, we're not
here to dunk on these creators. They did have a
wonderful idea. They have successfully spread it around the world,
and yeah, they're making Bukoo bucks off of it, like
they're making a lot of money, but it is not
as though they're profiting by running guns or trafficking drugs

(01:10:58):
or starting wars or and crazy coups for oil empires.

Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
And they're not a public company either, are they? I
don't like they're not. They aren't forced to have that
infinite growth thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Right, So Nostella is a private company?

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
Hey, I actually kind of like that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Yeah, I love them to man. All my companies are private.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
Hey, what a weird?

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
How would that fit into a hip hop verse?

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
And nobody should have the presumed expectation of privacy, Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
Yeah, exactly. The implication here and the conspiracy involved, is
not therefore necessarily intentional, you know. But the thing we
do have to remember, with all due respect, is that
consequences exist outside of intention. They are independent totally from
your intent. So the popularity of the ELF has risen

(01:11:50):
in step with other vastly less wholesome normalization of surveillance
and erosion of privacy.

Speaker 4 (01:11:57):
Do you think the government's into this? Do you think
they have me? Yeah, push elf on shelf? You think
there's like a tie in or a buy in of
some sort with I mean, I don't think so that
would be the next level of the conspiracy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Right, Yeah, to steeple the fingers in the smoky back
room of a sure Win Williams.

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):
We need more health.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
We need more health. Elf the world Uh but Elf
the world? Uh? There are I love that question because
this woman can't answer. There are powerful people who are
overjoyed with the success of this and see it as
a good sign of winning hearts and minds. I don't
know if there was a specific meeting or series of meetings.

(01:12:35):
They probably kept that one to an email, you know,
so it was probably like Elf and then somebody else
wrote nice.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
Yeah, probably by AI, just AI talking to each other.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Do you wonder if this is gonna if it could
even possibly reduce the chances of younger people growing up
with you know, Elf and the shelf in their life.
With the constant surveillance in their life outside of any
Christmas traditions, we will prevent younger people from even gathering

(01:13:07):
together and dissenting against common views or like prevailing views.

Speaker 4 (01:13:12):
One could argue that that's that's the slippery slope of it,
for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yeah. The third space is already vastly endangered, right and
has moved to a digital sphere, which makes it easier control.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):
But when it's moved to a digital sphere, do you
mean like it's easier to monitor and and snoop on.

Speaker 4 (01:13:31):
I think it's also one of these things where my
kid grew up with up on the shelf. I don't.
They're very willing to protest things and speak truth to power,
but they're not exactly going to protests, and like you know,
certain joining revolutionary groups, they're doing it largely online. And
I think to Mend's point, that stuff is a little
easier to uh, to surveil and to dismantle and to

(01:13:53):
what's the word add dissenting voices to the point where
we don't know which one is the real revolutionary group.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
Yeah, I love that point, Nol, And thank you. Because
the brilliance of capitalism is capitalism is the first system
that figured out a way to monetize its own criticism.
You make a T shirt that says capitalism and capitalism
loves it and for twenty five ninety nine and those the.

Speaker 4 (01:14:22):
Reason that billionaires give to both political parties.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Yeah, oh, you got to head your bets, you know
what I mean. That's why I go to Marco's Pizza
and pizza hut. I'm just trying to keep things on
an even keel, keep my options open. And that goes
back to what you're saying there, Matt. As we said earlier,
there has to be more of a longitudinal study. Two
decades is not long enough. We'll have to see further

(01:14:45):
intergenerational results before we know whether this is all sound
and fury signified nothing, or before we see some traceable
influence or impact upon behavior. But we do know for
sure whether or not you think it's a big deal,
whether you think it's sinister or wholesome. There are powerful

(01:15:08):
people who kind of dig the ELF on the shelf
surveillance stuff. They do see it as winning hearts and
minds across the planet, and that, perhaps more than anything,
is the stuff they don't want you to know. And
with that, folks, there is stuff we want to know
from you. Your thoughts, your opinions, the names of your elves,

(01:15:30):
their locations, right also their Arctic social Security numbers, a
list of their childhood elf fears. You can call us
on a phone, You can always send us an email.
You can always find us on the lines. Should thou
sip those social meds.

Speaker 4 (01:15:45):
Sip away have that social gluegrine where you can find
us in the handle conspiracy stuff where we exist on
Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy
on xfka, Twitter, and on Instagram and TikTok. However, we're
conspiracy stuff show.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
Don't sleep on the Instagram content. Guys, do you all
remember in December of twenty twenty two when we made
a little video about uh, that Elf on the Shelf thing?

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
Remember this is no I don't it's been such a
long time. We need to maybe republish some of that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
It says share this post to spread the holiday spirit
and it features Ben and nol in awesome sung classes.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
Was it sponsored by Elf on the Shelf Corporate?

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Okay, we've got to break the cop phone. Do the
phone number, phone er, who is coming?

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Our phone number? You can call us. You can call
our voicemail system right now. Our number is one eight
three three st d W y t K. Turn those
letters into numbers. You'll figure it out when you call in.
You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on the air. If you've got I don't know
other stuff to say, and maybe you want to type
it out, Why not instead send us a good old

(01:16:54):
fashioned email.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet out afraid. Sometimes the
void writes back. Send us your favorite obscure Christmas traditions,
tell us your favorite part about normalization of the surveillance state,
or you know, just send us a picture of your pets.
You know, we always love a good joke. Joined us

(01:17:16):
out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Also,
and we got to say it. Merry Christmas.

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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