November 20, 2015 • 34 mins
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is tasked with safeguarding the country and its citizens from environmental harm. But how well is the agency actually doing at this incredibly important job? Join Matt, Ben and Noel as they explore the facts and fiction behind the EPA.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to ghosts and government cover ups. History is
really with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Planet
Earth unique amongst all the heavenly bodies man has found
(00:22):
with a circumference of twenty four thousand, nine hundred miles, animals, insects,
and of course human being almost seven point four billion
of them as we record this podcast, with the projected
(00:44):
ten billion people on the planet in twenty fifty six.
But wait, there's more. The Earth faces peril. Just this
past year, four million, five hundred and sixty six thousand,
seven hundred and twenty six hectar AARs of forests were lost.
To put that into perspective, since over one and twenty
(01:08):
nine million hectares of forest the equivalent area of South
Africa have been lost. Also, desertification soil is being destroyed
at an alarming rate, over ten and a half million
hectares this year. And that's not all. The air is
being polluted. Thirty two billion, sixty seven million tons and
(01:33):
counting of c O two emissions are released each year,
not even to mention the methane and other gases. But
all is not lost in this epic battle of destruction
and creation. In the darkness has emerged a shining white
light of hope. That is the e p A, the
(01:57):
Environmental Protection Agency is here us. Welcome to the show,
ladies and gentlemen. We did it a little bit differently today,
but we hope you enjoyed it. I'm Ben and hopefully
you are you and in the right place which makes
this stuff they don't want you to know. This week
we did a video on the e p A. Yes,
(02:21):
it's it's one that we shot while we were in Washington,
d C. This year. M and Uh. The e p
A is uh Environmental Protection Agency kind of like a
lot of other countries have. It's also uh, well, I
don't know, let's just say what it's supposed to do.
Oh sure. So d PA was actually established on December
(02:41):
second of the nineteen seventy two consolidate into a single
agency a variety of federal research, monitoring, standard setting, UH
and enforcement activities to ensure the protection of our environment.
Now the mission of the e p A, there are
many of them. Uh. They are wide ranging, and it
goes from everything to UH to ensure that Americans are
(03:04):
protected from threats to health. Right, and that's where they work,
where they live, and where they learn. Um. What else,
let's see also to hold companies or even other governmental
bodies responsible for pollution or contamination, keeping people up to
(03:24):
the standards that are issued in their policies, right exactly,
in other words, holding corporations accountable for their pollution. Right. Perfect,
Please stop putting all of this. Uh, let's what's what's
the all these all these benzene derivatives into the rivers,
right or lead let's say, lead from an old gold
(03:48):
mine perhaps, yes, it runs the gamut for sure. And
so these efforts, these national efforts to reduce environmental risk,
let's call it, are you know, ultimately based on the
best scientific day that's available, and federal laws that protect
human health and the environment are enforced, you know, hopefully
fairly and effectively in theory, in theory. Indeed, if you
(04:11):
go to e p A dot gov, you can find
their entire mission statement all the things that they are
supposed to do, at least officially. Um Nolevan and I
were just going over the mission statement, and uh, they
so they develop the e p A actually develops regulations
and enforces them as well. So if you think about
Congress goes and rites an environmental law, or let's say
(04:32):
maybe a lobby or a company writes writes a law,
and then Congress rewrites it and signs it. Maybe maybe
that happenste it, Yeah, maybe they rewrite it. The e
p A will then write the regulation to go along
with whatever Congress says needs to happen. Oh, and they
will also set national standards and enforce those regulations that
(04:56):
they put forth in theory, in theory, and something Noll
that I found out is that one of the big
parts of the money that goes to the e p
A is actually spent on giving out grants. Right, So
nearly half of the ep A budget actually goes into
grants to state environmental programs, nonprofits, educational institutions in the
(05:17):
like UM. And these grants are intended to fund environmental studies,
UM conduct research at labs across the US, and to
share these findings with private organizations, academic institutions, other agencies,
and other countries. So, as you've heard, we've been peppering
this conversation thus far with the the caveats of in theory.
(05:39):
In a perfect world, this is what's supposed to happen. So,
Ben Matt, how does the e p A ultimately stack
up to their mission? Well, see, that's the thing. Um,
that's and and when it's so polite that you say,
we've been peppering with we've been peppering the show with
in theory because for the past couple points were making
(06:01):
I was just sitting back with my arms crossed, leaning
in and saying in theory, because it's true, the e
p A does not always reach the goals it sets right,
it's maybe, you know, there's a fair amount of defense
we could say about that. What's little? Is it Robert Browning?
Uh man's reach must exceed his grasp? Else, what's a
(06:23):
heaven for? It's a very nice way to say, it's
a very nice way to look at ambition. But uh,
the the thing is that the e p A gets
numerous criticism. Uh, not just from people who think it's
too big government and too regulatory, not just from people
who think that it's UM two two in the hands
(06:47):
or in the pockets rather of corporate America. And even
people who would say that the e p A is
part of a lot of government agencies that do too
much hand holding and prevent private industry from creating the
wealth that it should be right. And add to that
another group of critics, people who are formally employed at
(07:08):
the e p A. Who have a lot of stuff
to say about it, just like Joseph Stiglets, you know,
going from working at the World Bank to being one
of its largest detractors. Well yeah, because when you're inside,
you know, the belly of the beast, it's the most
stinky inside, right, Yes, not a biologist, but I would
be What do you think It always reminds me of
(07:28):
that scene in Return where he has to get inside
the Kangaroo Monster. Yes it is in Hollywood. Punched me
for not knowing that, but not really. She wouldn't really
punch me. She doesn't punch, but she would punch me
with her eyes. You're referring to Holly Fry District Lass.
She is an avid Star Wars aficionado. Let's say. But yeah,
(07:50):
they always talk about how, oh, it's also gross. What
if it's not a tonton and I just that's just
a word that I know it is. Okay, we've literally
had this conversation before and I questioned what a tonton was,
and you said, you know, the one that smells worse
on the inside than was on the outside. Oh nice,
that's my favorite reference here. So that's the that's where
you're coming from with the belly of the beast. The
(08:11):
belly of the e p A beast. Um really comes
to light in some criticism Spike guy named William Sanjoor.
For about twenty years Sandrew worked for the It was thirty,
so for decades he worked at the e p A.
And he did not come out a happy camper. He says,
(08:31):
the entire place is corrupt. Yeah, and he wasn't just
somebody who I don't know works in a small office
as part of the e p A or a small
lab operated by the e p A. Uh. He started
as a consultant, but then he ended up as a
branch chief in the Hazardous Waste Management division. So he
knows his stuff. He's been in charge of some things there.
(08:54):
He's been in the belly of the tonton. That's right,
did I steal your life? It is yours and it
does go fairly far back. I think he's been employed
during three presidencies, worked for three different white houses while
he was working there. Um, he's got this really great gosh,
(09:15):
it's kind of long. Um, well, when do you split
it up with me? Just because I think it it
It really encapsulates the criticism that he's making well, and
it's an insider perspective, so I mean it's certainly to
be taken relatively seriously. So this is from What's Wrong
with the e p A by William Sanjeur, written in
(09:37):
absolutely quote. To understand why the e p A is
the way that it is, you have to start at
the top. And since the e p A is part
of the executive branch, that means the White House. The president,
any president, Republican or Democrat, and his immediate staff have
an agenda of about half a dozen issues with which
they are most concerned. These are usually national security, foreign affairs,
(09:59):
the economy, of the budget, and maybe one or two others.
Call them Class A priorities. All others, housing, education, transportation,
the environment are Class B. The president expects performance in
Class A. He will expect the military to to be
able to deploy forces anywhere in the world when an
emergency arises, and if it isn't, he'll bang heads until
it is. If Congress doesn't support his budget, he'll bring
(10:21):
the budget director into his office and slam his fist
on the table. But can you picture the President bringing
in the Secretary of Transportation to his office and yelling
because of poor bus service and Sheboygan are calling the
administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency into the Oval office
to chew him out for pollution in the Cuyahoga River.
I can't. That is the difference. The president expects performance
in Class A and Class B. He expects peace and quiet. Yikes.
(10:47):
I really thought that encapsulated just I mean, an understanding
of if you tear out all the different things that
a White House has to deal with a president and
all the people who work in the White House, the environment,
while it is not currently up there, doesn't it feel
like it kind of should be. Well, that's that's part
(11:07):
of the that's part of the thing, and that's something
we're gonna talk about spoiler alert, ladies and gentlemen in
an upcoming podcast next week on Congress, and it is
going to be about how uh individuals elected officials are
or are not incentivized to take certain action. You know,
if you're president. The thing is that president is such
a I'll say it, it's a bum job to have
(11:30):
I know, you only get to have one at a
time here in the US, and so psychologically everybody wants
to do something like that. But their place that has
more than one at a time, well, I mean, you
could be president of other things. You can be president
of the Ben Bull and Fan Club, you know, and
a tax a tax attorney. You could be president of
(11:51):
Noel Brown Enthusiast Association. We started those clubs on the
same day. I didn't get up the memo. Sorry, it's
pretty exclusive mailing list. Kidding, but but you know, the
point is that the point is that if you are
president for four years or heck, let's say eight, you
get the double whammy. Then the hard and bitter truth
(12:15):
about it is a lot of meaningful change for a
country at all. Anything that size is going to take
more than four to eight years to reach fruition. I mean,
what occurred to me when we were talking about, you
know this class A and class B. In order to
make something that is considered class B under a presidency
in the nineties, two move up the ladder. That's gonna
(12:37):
take a long time. Things move slow. The system is
designed for things to move slow. And you know, I
would argue in some cases for good reason. But it
takes a whole lot of support from both sides of
the aisle for something to become a class A consideration
that has been historically a class PIECES consideration. And I
think we're just now starting to see inklings of septance
(13:00):
of things like climate change, you know, actually making its
way to the forefront of political discussion. And furthermore, Sandor
also accuses the e p A of something that that
we've heard a lot in the course of our research,
which is chrony ism, protecting the bureaucracy or the status
quo rather than protecting the mission critical policies, right, which
(13:24):
would be the environment. So a lot of people when
they encounter the e p A, we're expecting something to
be on their side, but they find that it can
be adversarial instead. Or those are the reports. Um. One
thing that Sandra said that and I'm not gonna read
it in full here, I'm in a paraphrase. He says,
regulatory agencies, by their very nature, can do little that
doesn't adversely affect business, especially big business, and that disturbs
(13:49):
the president. So what he's saying, like that Class B
priority all of a sudden has some class A problems.
You know what I mean. He has Champagne problems on
a PBR budget and Uh, it's it's not it's not
a good look. I guess if we're being we're being slaying. Uh.
But the e p A acorns Sandra can't write regulations
(14:10):
governing big industries like petroleum without the oil companies going
to the White House about an energy crisis. And this
is this is again his this is again his opinion.
And what we found is that, Uh, in the e
p A there have been repeated cases of chronyism or
(14:30):
people people kind of playing along and jumping through the
hoops so that they can later get a job in
the private sector. Yes, helping out industry while you're inside
the e p A, so that eventually you're on the
other side and helping out a company. Another interesting thing
that Sandra writes here that I am going to read
a bit in full, uh, is about how the agency
(14:52):
is dealt with by environmental groups as opposed to industrial
groups or private organizations. Um. And basically what he's saying,
I'm not going to read it for he Basically what
he's saying is that environmental groups will deal with the
e p A as an organization, through courts, um as
an institution in fact, you know, through committees, courts, and
(15:14):
through the top EPA executive, so you go through the
main channels, right, But what he's saying is that industry
does the same thing, but it also interacts with individual
EPA employees at the lower levels, so they will come
through and talk to an inspector, let's say, and it
what it What it seems like, uh Sandra is saying
(15:35):
is that they almost groom these employees from an early
stage of working at the e p A to eventually
become one of their's. Huh. It's almost like I would
think from the perspective of like a CEO of a
big corporation that you know has dealings with the e
p A, having high level board member that was once
(15:57):
in the ranks of e p A probably be pretty
helpful a lot of ways and dealing with the p A.
And right, well, sure it's a strategy move. I mean
that's you see that all the time. You see that
with like sec you know, folks ending up on the
boards of big banks, and you know, it just seems
like a very a lot of potential for abuse there.
It's a common practice. If we could run through some
(16:17):
other criticisms of the p A, I just want to
laundry list of these real quick so I don't slow
us down too much. Uh. The most usual criticism the
A p A, according to a lot of people, and
there's a political one, is that all these regulations keep
people from making money. So the idea would be like
latest um CEO two emissions regulations are costing coal mining
(16:42):
right and eroding the margins um or you'll also here
when I do the car show on car stuff with
Scott Benjamin, you'll also hear people I'm talking about the
regulations in the way they impact the price or performance
of cars. Uh. And another criticism again, I'll keep this
really fast so I'm not you know, I was gonna say.
(17:04):
We saw a great example of that last one with
Volkswagen recently that we've kind of talked about already, but
just there the way they were getting around e p
A standards and guidelines. Yeah, excellent example. Another criticism that
kind of is used to support the first one is
this idea like what does it matter? You know what
I mean? Other developing nations, like the bricks nations, don't
(17:29):
care as much you know, uh, and then and I
think there is a valid question there about pollution from
developing countries because a lot of the developed countries talking
about pollution to the developing world are just sort of
ignoring the fact that the industrial revolution rested on the
(17:49):
that kind of that level of pollution, and without that
then there wouldn't be any of the advances that have
gotten you passed polluting that in I mean, that's crazy.
I mean, it's a it's an interesting idea to to
to what if and um, to explore a hypothetical world
in which everybody was super concerned about the environment from
(18:13):
day one? You know, would we be as far as
a species. I don't know, what's a good question to ask.
Another criticism the p A is that it serves the
political interest of whomever is in charge. Because let's remember
and listeners outside the US, just to be clear, Uh,
the e p A employees are not elected. A lot
(18:35):
of the policy makers in the US are not elected.
They get an interview and they get hired. So we're appointed, yes,
and so there are many that are under multiple presidents
like Matt was talking about. And I just wanted to
run through those criticisms because it's something that people need
(18:55):
to need to hear. I think, oh, yeah, well, I
I tend to you. You don't hear about the e
p A very often in the news, right unless something
really really bad happens, like a spill or I don't
know something that the e p A is being culpable for,
or if you hear someone talking about budget cuts, because
(19:16):
organizations like the e p A, they are easy fodder
a lot of times depending on the administration that's coming
into the White House. Um, because it's one of those things.
It's I guess again going back to what the guy said,
a class b uh issue. And so now that we've
we've painted some of those pictures, right, and I hope
(19:40):
we're doing an okay job for you guys out there.
When we talk about the criticisms that an organization like
this has, we also point out that an organization can't
be this big without generating criticism, especially if it seems
like it's costing people money. And uh, there are people
who say this has this a short term loss for
(20:01):
long term benefit. But will I ever see the long
term benefit? You know, there's a psychological thing at play there. Uh,
But let's let's go right into the crazy stuff at first.
A word from respons here's where it gets crazy. Yes,
(20:28):
so surprised. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about
the e p A. And I'm just gonna go ahead
and stray out say it. Uh. Some of those that
are that concerned corruption are absolutely spot on. Uh, it's
hard to disprove some of those. It's hard to disprove however. Um. Well,
also they easily prove themselves, That's what I mean. Yeah,
(20:52):
But also, um, there are some that we found that
that we're really interesting that we wanted to explore with
you guys today. Yeah, some of these have a foot
in reality for me, and then a foot in kind
of the fanciful where it would it would require one
of those big conspiracies that there are so many human
(21:15):
beings that would have to be behind it, and uh,
it just seems a little out of the reach of
reality for me. But the first one is that the
e p A is trying to enforce gun control by
limiting and removing lead from bullets. Yeah, how's that going
for him? Well, it was a it was an idea.
(21:36):
You're saying that if that's the thing they're doing, it
is failing miserable because that bought the bullets earlier. Well,
I mean, maybe there's no lead in those bullets. I
don't know. I haven't bought bullets ever in my life.
A bullets even still made of leading. They have to
be right. Oh God, but but go on with this story. Yeah,
(21:58):
tell tell me really they so they actually said they
said that, or people thought they were going to say, well, okay,
that is one of those one of those reports that
comes out that will mention something like the e p
A is looking into effects of lead in the environment. Okay,
and they want to see, well, where are some of
(22:19):
the man made sources of lead? Where's it coming from? Now?
We don't use lead paints anymore. There are a lot
of places where we've reduced our use of lead as
a human species, especially in the United States. Yeah, where's
it coming from? Now? Well, one of the places is ammunition. Ammunition,
and get this ben fishing tackle. Oh yeah, the silent killer.
(22:44):
I don't know. I guess it surprises fish. So so
what's what's the truth? Can you can you hit us
up with a truth bomb real quick? All right, here's
the truth. So, according to our sources, the Center for
Biological Diversity and other environmental groups file the petition as
getting the e p A to consider banning the use
of lead and ammunition and fishing tackle, arguing that these
(23:04):
products are exposing wildlife and the people who consume said
wildlife too harmful levels of this heavy metal. But the
e PA, for its part, had no plans to actually
implement this agenda. Quote e p A was not and
is not considering taking action on whether the lead content
and hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife. You know,
it's kind of interesting that that that proposition, because ammunition
(23:32):
in a hunting situation inherently poses a threat to wildlife.
That's what it's supposed it to. I certainly hope so
phishing tackle inherently aids and a bets fishing. Like I
I love fishing. I suck at it, but I love it.
I love the idea that fishing tackle aids and avets
(23:53):
the harm of wildlife. Right. Yeah, So it's it's just
it to me, it's strange, and I'm glad you point
this out and all that there is a grain of
truth to this that I guess became alarmist. It doesn't
it doesn't make sense to me. It just it doesn't
make sense to ban that in that way. Well, yeah,
(24:16):
and you can see if you've got a political agenda
that wants to make someone make person B or group
B look bad, you say, oh, look the this guy
is trying to get the e p A to ban
guns and and ammunition. Look at this, and you know,
you can see how would be used in a political manner.
(24:37):
It's pretty pretty blatant. Yeah, I could. I can totally
see that, and I guess it would make sense. But
I would just you know, like, so, where's where's the money?
Where's the money Lebowski? You know, in doing this. I
mean it seems like if we're talking about conspiracies within
government organizations, usually it's about someone making some money. So
(24:58):
what benefit is there for an EPA official two get
behind this tow Well, there would be the I think
the origin point there is the idea that big brother
will do anything to render well armed populous irrelevant or yeah,
take your guns away, right, I mean I think, I
(25:19):
mean that was the implication for me as well. But I
I just I just don't see it coming from this
particular way. I think there's a better way. If if
there's if the government really does want to get rid
of all of the bullets. There's a better way to
do it than the e p A. I don't know
what that way is, because I'm not trying to do that.
(25:42):
I was trying to I was. I'm really thinking of
a better way to do that. Giant magnets, gigantic magnets, brilliant, brilliant.
What I love is how simple it is. It's like
that breaking bad. You know, yes, but how do they work?
You have to ask the insane clown clown possele. Something
(26:04):
tells me they don't know. All right, let's do one more.
Let's let's talk about this idea that the e p
A itself is polluting, that the e p A, like
the World Bank allegedly might be uh, the e p
A is creating or propagating the problem it was built
ostensibly to solve. There are people who believe that. Well,
(26:27):
I mean, if you believe this theory, here are a
couple of things that I can imagine you saying to yourself, Well,
they have to increase their budget year over year. So
they have and they have to be increasing increasingly bad
things that they have to take care of, that they
need more money to handle. No, do you hear my
head shaking, I hear it. Shape. I'm trying to I'm
(26:48):
trying to imagine the things that would be said. Do
you don't need a government organization to actively you know?
But what I'm saying is those people who work in
the organization need to keep their jobs. In order to
keep their jobs, they have to I'm just saying people
do that for them. They don't need to help, you know.
(27:09):
Or I mean, the corporations are doing a fine job
of polluting jet they don't need the e p a's help. Well,
the e p A has helped accidentally a few times,
no doubt that. I'm just saying in terms of a
conspiracy involving the e p A. Actually, you know, on
their lunch break they go out and dump a bucket
of toxic waste in the river. You know? Is that
we're talking to Come on, unless they're getting money behind
(27:31):
somebody's back from an industry on purpose just to make
dump some toxic waste. Let's say, Oh, I don't know,
from the old gold King mind, Ben, I was gonna say, say, uh,
miss well, be yes, there is this idea that gained
a little traction with the legislature in Utah, which was
(27:52):
that the UH e p A did not accidentally release
three million gallons of my wastewater into the Animous River
in Colorado, that instead they purposefully did it, and Uh,
the state's attorney general was kind of like, uh, you know,
(28:13):
I don't know, maybe maybe who knows, Tupac might still
be alive. Well, yeah, it seems from the idea that
they were warned well in advance that there is an
issue here. And not only would this one king gold
or gold king mine, they're all these other minds in
that area that are are connected directly directly to rivers,
UH and groups they are just warning and mourning and warning, Hey, look,
(28:38):
these mines have wastewater and terrible things in them that
are going to get into the rivers. That we have
to do something about it. And it stinks because the
e p A really kind of has to table it
to a certain extent until they can get the resources
to take care of it. At least that's what the
e p A says. A representative named Mike nol s
the same way smelled the same way UH said that
(29:00):
the e p A might have caused the spill to
help environmentalists put an end to the hard rock mining industry.
I just don't see that. I don't know how that
would That's like such a Rube Goldberg machine of a plan.
I would need some proof to believe that. Do you
remember that board game mouse Trap? Oh? Yeah, it's it's
like a mouse trap level overly complicated plan. Yeah, you're
(29:25):
gonna bust a hole in this retaining wall and let
out all this stuff. By the way, the pollutes that
were let out and ended up what is an Animus
river and they got polluted. You're looking at extremely high
levels of lead, arsenic, cadmium, beryllium, and mercury in that water.
So anything living in that water, anyone using that water, Uh,
(29:48):
this is not good. And according to this one CNN
report that was looking at an actual e p A
report was talking about uh, perhaps because these are heavy metals, right,
and it's not that they just go away once they're
in a river like this. They sink to the bottom.
And then if you have catfish, catfish, anything else that
(30:10):
lives in there, or even if there's um a lot
of a lot of extra water moving through with a
little bit of flooding, you're gonna get that stuff. It's
gonna get up with the silt, get more problems. Anyway,
I just thought this was a really interesting and kind
of scary thing that happened on my birthday this year.
So yeah. E p A created in nineteen seventy to
(30:35):
look after the environment and a ruined birthday Facebook posts
on birthday. Yes, uh, well, I'm glad that they are
doing something. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, you know. Also,
the e p A does a lot of good work
that gets ignored, right, The squeaky wheels get degrease, right,
and the barking dogs are the ones you hear uh
(30:56):
and other various figures of speech. Point being were guessing
on the stuff that has been alleged or proven to
be shady, to be incorrect, to be corrupt, because that's
what we're looking to do. Um, if the e p
A does their job, then we have no idea. And
(31:16):
can the e PA do their job structurally given the
relationship between a business and a government, right or just
the sheer size of this regulatory body, how how are
they doing? Why do ex employees complain? But I guess
ex employees will always come out of the woodwork for anything, right, So, Uh,
(31:36):
we want to I guess we got to wrap it
up unfortunately, And we want to hear from you guys.
What do you think of the e p A. Are
you one of the people who thinks it shouldn't exist?
If so, I want to hear from you. I think
that's something like it needs to exist. That's what I think.
Just personally, I don't know, but I'm really interested in
(31:59):
hearing the opinion of people who think that it shouldn't
or that something different should exist. What would that be?
And um, tell us tell us what things are like
in your neck of the woods, especially if you live
in a different country. Do you have something like the
e p A. What do you think of them? Yeah?
Do you have any run ins with let's say, stuff
(32:19):
that's in your well water? Uh? If you live out
in the Northwest or something the Midwest? I wanna Yeah,
I'd love to hear stories of just dealing with even
like things like fishing advisories. Oh yeah, absolutely. So. You
can find us in various corners of the Internet. As
we always say, we're on Facebook and Twitter. Where are
(32:41):
we at on that you can find us? We are
conspiracy stuff on those We like using those. Yes, but uh,
there are two places, two ways to hang out with
us that I think are most profitable into like terms
of time. Yes, okay. The first one is to go
to stuff Don't want you to know dot com because
(33:01):
you can find this that we're doing right now. It
exists there every version of our audio podcast, every episode,
all the videos, all the pictures of Ben and Matt
hanging out around pylons, So Noel will be hanging around
a pylon to picture. Can I lean on it? Oh? Yes,
you can kneel. You do all with them more leaning? Okay, well, Neil,
(33:25):
I like I like it when there are levels. What
do people do people do if they don't like websites?
What if they just want to send us a direct message?
I I honestly don't know what. What do you do? Well?
I suppose you could send an email to conspiracy stuff works.
You're right from on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon. Visit
(33:50):
YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get
in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff
and it be
From UFOs to ghosts and government cover ups. History is
really with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Planet
Earth unique amongst all the heavenly bodies man has found
(00:22):
with a circumference of twenty four thousand, nine hundred miles, animals, insects,
and of course human being almost seven point four billion
of them as we record this podcast, with the projected
(00:44):
ten billion people on the planet in twenty fifty six.
But wait, there's more. The Earth faces peril. Just this
past year, four million, five hundred and sixty six thousand,
seven hundred and twenty six hectar AARs of forests were lost.
To put that into perspective, since over one and twenty
(01:08):
nine million hectares of forest the equivalent area of South
Africa have been lost. Also, desertification soil is being destroyed
at an alarming rate, over ten and a half million
hectares this year. And that's not all. The air is
being polluted. Thirty two billion, sixty seven million tons and
(01:33):
counting of c O two emissions are released each year,
not even to mention the methane and other gases. But
all is not lost in this epic battle of destruction
and creation. In the darkness has emerged a shining white
light of hope. That is the e p A, the
(01:57):
Environmental Protection Agency is here us. Welcome to the show,
ladies and gentlemen. We did it a little bit differently today,
but we hope you enjoyed it. I'm Ben and hopefully
you are you and in the right place which makes
this stuff they don't want you to know. This week
we did a video on the e p A. Yes,
(02:21):
it's it's one that we shot while we were in Washington,
d C. This year. M and Uh. The e p
A is uh Environmental Protection Agency kind of like a
lot of other countries have. It's also uh, well, I
don't know, let's just say what it's supposed to do.
Oh sure. So d PA was actually established on December
(02:41):
second of the nineteen seventy two consolidate into a single
agency a variety of federal research, monitoring, standard setting, UH
and enforcement activities to ensure the protection of our environment.
Now the mission of the e p A, there are
many of them. Uh. They are wide ranging, and it
goes from everything to UH to ensure that Americans are
(03:04):
protected from threats to health. Right, and that's where they work,
where they live, and where they learn. Um. What else,
let's see also to hold companies or even other governmental
bodies responsible for pollution or contamination, keeping people up to
(03:24):
the standards that are issued in their policies, right exactly,
in other words, holding corporations accountable for their pollution. Right. Perfect,
Please stop putting all of this. Uh, let's what's what's
the all these all these benzene derivatives into the rivers,
right or lead let's say, lead from an old gold
(03:48):
mine perhaps, yes, it runs the gamut for sure. And
so these efforts, these national efforts to reduce environmental risk,
let's call it, are you know, ultimately based on the
best scientific day that's available, and federal laws that protect
human health and the environment are enforced, you know, hopefully
fairly and effectively in theory, in theory. Indeed, if you
(04:11):
go to e p A dot gov, you can find
their entire mission statement all the things that they are
supposed to do, at least officially. Um Nolevan and I
were just going over the mission statement, and uh, they
so they develop the e p A actually develops regulations
and enforces them as well. So if you think about
Congress goes and rites an environmental law, or let's say
(04:32):
maybe a lobby or a company writes writes a law,
and then Congress rewrites it and signs it. Maybe maybe
that happenste it, Yeah, maybe they rewrite it. The e
p A will then write the regulation to go along
with whatever Congress says needs to happen. Oh, and they
will also set national standards and enforce those regulations that
(04:56):
they put forth in theory, in theory, and something Noll
that I found out is that one of the big
parts of the money that goes to the e p
A is actually spent on giving out grants. Right, So
nearly half of the ep A budget actually goes into
grants to state environmental programs, nonprofits, educational institutions in the
(05:17):
like UM. And these grants are intended to fund environmental studies,
UM conduct research at labs across the US, and to
share these findings with private organizations, academic institutions, other agencies,
and other countries. So, as you've heard, we've been peppering
this conversation thus far with the the caveats of in theory.
(05:39):
In a perfect world, this is what's supposed to happen. So,
Ben Matt, how does the e p A ultimately stack
up to their mission? Well, see, that's the thing. Um,
that's and and when it's so polite that you say,
we've been peppering with we've been peppering the show with
in theory because for the past couple points were making
(06:01):
I was just sitting back with my arms crossed, leaning
in and saying in theory, because it's true, the e
p A does not always reach the goals it sets right,
it's maybe, you know, there's a fair amount of defense
we could say about that. What's little? Is it Robert Browning?
Uh man's reach must exceed his grasp? Else, what's a
(06:23):
heaven for? It's a very nice way to say, it's
a very nice way to look at ambition. But uh,
the the thing is that the e p A gets
numerous criticism. Uh, not just from people who think it's
too big government and too regulatory, not just from people
who think that it's UM two two in the hands
(06:47):
or in the pockets rather of corporate America. And even
people who would say that the e p A is
part of a lot of government agencies that do too
much hand holding and prevent private industry from creating the
wealth that it should be right. And add to that
another group of critics, people who are formally employed at
(07:08):
the e p A. Who have a lot of stuff
to say about it, just like Joseph Stiglets, you know,
going from working at the World Bank to being one
of its largest detractors. Well yeah, because when you're inside,
you know, the belly of the beast, it's the most
stinky inside, right, Yes, not a biologist, but I would
be What do you think It always reminds me of
(07:28):
that scene in Return where he has to get inside
the Kangaroo Monster. Yes it is in Hollywood. Punched me
for not knowing that, but not really. She wouldn't really
punch me. She doesn't punch, but she would punch me
with her eyes. You're referring to Holly Fry District Lass.
She is an avid Star Wars aficionado. Let's say. But yeah,
(07:50):
they always talk about how, oh, it's also gross. What
if it's not a tonton and I just that's just
a word that I know it is. Okay, we've literally
had this conversation before and I questioned what a tonton was,
and you said, you know, the one that smells worse
on the inside than was on the outside. Oh nice,
that's my favorite reference here. So that's the that's where
you're coming from with the belly of the beast. The
(08:11):
belly of the e p A beast. Um really comes
to light in some criticism Spike guy named William Sanjoor.
For about twenty years Sandrew worked for the It was thirty,
so for decades he worked at the e p A.
And he did not come out a happy camper. He says,
(08:31):
the entire place is corrupt. Yeah, and he wasn't just
somebody who I don't know works in a small office
as part of the e p A or a small
lab operated by the e p A. Uh. He started
as a consultant, but then he ended up as a
branch chief in the Hazardous Waste Management division. So he
knows his stuff. He's been in charge of some things there.
(08:54):
He's been in the belly of the tonton. That's right,
did I steal your life? It is yours and it
does go fairly far back. I think he's been employed
during three presidencies, worked for three different white houses while
he was working there. Um, he's got this really great gosh,
(09:15):
it's kind of long. Um, well, when do you split
it up with me? Just because I think it it
It really encapsulates the criticism that he's making well, and
it's an insider perspective, so I mean it's certainly to
be taken relatively seriously. So this is from What's Wrong
with the e p A by William Sanjeur, written in
(09:37):
absolutely quote. To understand why the e p A is
the way that it is, you have to start at
the top. And since the e p A is part
of the executive branch, that means the White House. The president,
any president, Republican or Democrat, and his immediate staff have
an agenda of about half a dozen issues with which
they are most concerned. These are usually national security, foreign affairs,
(09:59):
the economy, of the budget, and maybe one or two others.
Call them Class A priorities. All others, housing, education, transportation,
the environment are Class B. The president expects performance in
Class A. He will expect the military to to be
able to deploy forces anywhere in the world when an
emergency arises, and if it isn't, he'll bang heads until
it is. If Congress doesn't support his budget, he'll bring
(10:21):
the budget director into his office and slam his fist
on the table. But can you picture the President bringing
in the Secretary of Transportation to his office and yelling
because of poor bus service and Sheboygan are calling the
administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency into the Oval office
to chew him out for pollution in the Cuyahoga River.
I can't. That is the difference. The president expects performance
in Class A and Class B. He expects peace and quiet. Yikes.
(10:47):
I really thought that encapsulated just I mean, an understanding
of if you tear out all the different things that
a White House has to deal with a president and
all the people who work in the White House, the environment,
while it is not currently up there, doesn't it feel
like it kind of should be. Well, that's that's part
(11:07):
of the that's part of the thing, and that's something
we're gonna talk about spoiler alert, ladies and gentlemen in
an upcoming podcast next week on Congress, and it is
going to be about how uh individuals elected officials are
or are not incentivized to take certain action. You know,
if you're president. The thing is that president is such
a I'll say it, it's a bum job to have
(11:30):
I know, you only get to have one at a
time here in the US, and so psychologically everybody wants
to do something like that. But their place that has
more than one at a time, well, I mean, you
could be president of other things. You can be president
of the Ben Bull and Fan Club, you know, and
a tax a tax attorney. You could be president of
(11:51):
Noel Brown Enthusiast Association. We started those clubs on the
same day. I didn't get up the memo. Sorry, it's
pretty exclusive mailing list. Kidding, but but you know, the
point is that the point is that if you are
president for four years or heck, let's say eight, you
get the double whammy. Then the hard and bitter truth
(12:15):
about it is a lot of meaningful change for a
country at all. Anything that size is going to take
more than four to eight years to reach fruition. I mean,
what occurred to me when we were talking about, you
know this class A and class B. In order to
make something that is considered class B under a presidency
in the nineties, two move up the ladder. That's gonna
(12:37):
take a long time. Things move slow. The system is
designed for things to move slow. And you know, I
would argue in some cases for good reason. But it
takes a whole lot of support from both sides of
the aisle for something to become a class A consideration
that has been historically a class PIECES consideration. And I
think we're just now starting to see inklings of septance
(13:00):
of things like climate change, you know, actually making its
way to the forefront of political discussion. And furthermore, Sandor
also accuses the e p A of something that that
we've heard a lot in the course of our research,
which is chrony ism, protecting the bureaucracy or the status
quo rather than protecting the mission critical policies, right, which
(13:24):
would be the environment. So a lot of people when
they encounter the e p A, we're expecting something to
be on their side, but they find that it can
be adversarial instead. Or those are the reports. Um. One
thing that Sandra said that and I'm not gonna read
it in full here, I'm in a paraphrase. He says,
regulatory agencies, by their very nature, can do little that
doesn't adversely affect business, especially big business, and that disturbs
(13:49):
the president. So what he's saying, like that Class B
priority all of a sudden has some class A problems.
You know what I mean. He has Champagne problems on
a PBR budget and Uh, it's it's not it's not
a good look. I guess if we're being we're being slaying. Uh.
But the e p A acorns Sandra can't write regulations
(14:10):
governing big industries like petroleum without the oil companies going
to the White House about an energy crisis. And this
is this is again his this is again his opinion.
And what we found is that, Uh, in the e
p A there have been repeated cases of chronyism or
(14:30):
people people kind of playing along and jumping through the
hoops so that they can later get a job in
the private sector. Yes, helping out industry while you're inside
the e p A, so that eventually you're on the
other side and helping out a company. Another interesting thing
that Sandra writes here that I am going to read
a bit in full, uh, is about how the agency
(14:52):
is dealt with by environmental groups as opposed to industrial
groups or private organizations. Um. And basically what he's saying,
I'm not going to read it for he Basically what
he's saying is that environmental groups will deal with the
e p A as an organization, through courts, um as
an institution in fact, you know, through committees, courts, and
(15:14):
through the top EPA executive, so you go through the
main channels, right, But what he's saying is that industry
does the same thing, but it also interacts with individual
EPA employees at the lower levels, so they will come
through and talk to an inspector, let's say, and it
what it What it seems like, uh Sandra is saying
(15:35):
is that they almost groom these employees from an early
stage of working at the e p A to eventually
become one of their's. Huh. It's almost like I would
think from the perspective of like a CEO of a
big corporation that you know has dealings with the e
p A, having high level board member that was once
(15:57):
in the ranks of e p A probably be pretty
helpful a lot of ways and dealing with the p A.
And right, well, sure it's a strategy move. I mean
that's you see that all the time. You see that
with like sec you know, folks ending up on the
boards of big banks, and you know, it just seems
like a very a lot of potential for abuse there.
It's a common practice. If we could run through some
(16:17):
other criticisms of the p A, I just want to
laundry list of these real quick so I don't slow
us down too much. Uh. The most usual criticism the
A p A, according to a lot of people, and
there's a political one, is that all these regulations keep
people from making money. So the idea would be like
latest um CEO two emissions regulations are costing coal mining
(16:42):
right and eroding the margins um or you'll also here
when I do the car show on car stuff with
Scott Benjamin, you'll also hear people I'm talking about the
regulations in the way they impact the price or performance
of cars. Uh. And another criticism again, I'll keep this
really fast so I'm not you know, I was gonna say.
(17:04):
We saw a great example of that last one with
Volkswagen recently that we've kind of talked about already, but
just there the way they were getting around e p
A standards and guidelines. Yeah, excellent example. Another criticism that
kind of is used to support the first one is
this idea like what does it matter? You know what
I mean? Other developing nations, like the bricks nations, don't
(17:29):
care as much you know, uh, and then and I
think there is a valid question there about pollution from
developing countries because a lot of the developed countries talking
about pollution to the developing world are just sort of
ignoring the fact that the industrial revolution rested on the
(17:49):
that kind of that level of pollution, and without that
then there wouldn't be any of the advances that have
gotten you passed polluting that in I mean, that's crazy.
I mean, it's a it's an interesting idea to to
to what if and um, to explore a hypothetical world
in which everybody was super concerned about the environment from
(18:13):
day one? You know, would we be as far as
a species. I don't know, what's a good question to ask.
Another criticism the p A is that it serves the
political interest of whomever is in charge. Because let's remember
and listeners outside the US, just to be clear, Uh,
the e p A employees are not elected. A lot
(18:35):
of the policy makers in the US are not elected.
They get an interview and they get hired. So we're appointed, yes,
and so there are many that are under multiple presidents
like Matt was talking about. And I just wanted to
run through those criticisms because it's something that people need
(18:55):
to need to hear. I think, oh, yeah, well, I
I tend to you. You don't hear about the e
p A very often in the news, right unless something
really really bad happens, like a spill or I don't
know something that the e p A is being culpable for,
or if you hear someone talking about budget cuts, because
(19:16):
organizations like the e p A, they are easy fodder
a lot of times depending on the administration that's coming
into the White House. Um, because it's one of those things.
It's I guess again going back to what the guy said,
a class b uh issue. And so now that we've
we've painted some of those pictures, right, and I hope
(19:40):
we're doing an okay job for you guys out there.
When we talk about the criticisms that an organization like
this has, we also point out that an organization can't
be this big without generating criticism, especially if it seems
like it's costing people money. And uh, there are people
who say this has this a short term loss for
(20:01):
long term benefit. But will I ever see the long
term benefit? You know, there's a psychological thing at play there. Uh,
But let's let's go right into the crazy stuff at first.
A word from respons here's where it gets crazy. Yes,
(20:28):
so surprised. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about
the e p A. And I'm just gonna go ahead
and stray out say it. Uh. Some of those that
are that concerned corruption are absolutely spot on. Uh, it's
hard to disprove some of those. It's hard to disprove however. Um. Well,
also they easily prove themselves, That's what I mean. Yeah,
(20:52):
But also, um, there are some that we found that
that we're really interesting that we wanted to explore with
you guys today. Yeah, some of these have a foot
in reality for me, and then a foot in kind
of the fanciful where it would it would require one
of those big conspiracies that there are so many human
(21:15):
beings that would have to be behind it, and uh,
it just seems a little out of the reach of
reality for me. But the first one is that the
e p A is trying to enforce gun control by
limiting and removing lead from bullets. Yeah, how's that going
for him? Well, it was a it was an idea.
(21:36):
You're saying that if that's the thing they're doing, it
is failing miserable because that bought the bullets earlier. Well,
I mean, maybe there's no lead in those bullets. I
don't know. I haven't bought bullets ever in my life.
A bullets even still made of leading. They have to
be right. Oh God, but but go on with this story. Yeah,
(21:58):
tell tell me really they so they actually said they
said that, or people thought they were going to say, well, okay,
that is one of those one of those reports that
comes out that will mention something like the e p
A is looking into effects of lead in the environment. Okay,
and they want to see, well, where are some of
(22:19):
the man made sources of lead? Where's it coming from? Now?
We don't use lead paints anymore. There are a lot
of places where we've reduced our use of lead as
a human species, especially in the United States. Yeah, where's
it coming from? Now? Well, one of the places is ammunition. Ammunition,
and get this ben fishing tackle. Oh yeah, the silent killer.
(22:44):
I don't know. I guess it surprises fish. So so
what's what's the truth? Can you can you hit us
up with a truth bomb real quick? All right, here's
the truth. So, according to our sources, the Center for
Biological Diversity and other environmental groups file the petition as
getting the e p A to consider banning the use
of lead and ammunition and fishing tackle, arguing that these
(23:04):
products are exposing wildlife and the people who consume said
wildlife too harmful levels of this heavy metal. But the
e PA, for its part, had no plans to actually
implement this agenda. Quote e p A was not and
is not considering taking action on whether the lead content
and hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife. You know,
it's kind of interesting that that that proposition, because ammunition
(23:32):
in a hunting situation inherently poses a threat to wildlife.
That's what it's supposed it to. I certainly hope so
phishing tackle inherently aids and a bets fishing. Like I
I love fishing. I suck at it, but I love it.
I love the idea that fishing tackle aids and avets
(23:53):
the harm of wildlife. Right. Yeah, So it's it's just
it to me, it's strange, and I'm glad you point
this out and all that there is a grain of
truth to this that I guess became alarmist. It doesn't
it doesn't make sense to me. It just it doesn't
make sense to ban that in that way. Well, yeah,
(24:16):
and you can see if you've got a political agenda
that wants to make someone make person B or group
B look bad, you say, oh, look the this guy
is trying to get the e p A to ban
guns and and ammunition. Look at this, and you know,
you can see how would be used in a political manner.
(24:37):
It's pretty pretty blatant. Yeah, I could. I can totally
see that, and I guess it would make sense. But
I would just you know, like, so, where's where's the money?
Where's the money Lebowski? You know, in doing this. I
mean it seems like if we're talking about conspiracies within
government organizations, usually it's about someone making some money. So
(24:58):
what benefit is there for an EPA official two get
behind this tow Well, there would be the I think
the origin point there is the idea that big brother
will do anything to render well armed populous irrelevant or yeah,
take your guns away, right, I mean I think, I
(25:19):
mean that was the implication for me as well. But I
I just I just don't see it coming from this
particular way. I think there's a better way. If if
there's if the government really does want to get rid
of all of the bullets. There's a better way to
do it than the e p A. I don't know
what that way is, because I'm not trying to do that.
(25:42):
I was trying to I was. I'm really thinking of
a better way to do that. Giant magnets, gigantic magnets, brilliant, brilliant.
What I love is how simple it is. It's like
that breaking bad. You know, yes, but how do they work?
You have to ask the insane clown clown possele. Something
(26:04):
tells me they don't know. All right, let's do one more.
Let's let's talk about this idea that the e p
A itself is polluting, that the e p A, like
the World Bank allegedly might be uh, the e p
A is creating or propagating the problem it was built
ostensibly to solve. There are people who believe that. Well,
(26:27):
I mean, if you believe this theory, here are a
couple of things that I can imagine you saying to yourself, Well,
they have to increase their budget year over year. So
they have and they have to be increasing increasingly bad
things that they have to take care of, that they
need more money to handle. No, do you hear my
head shaking, I hear it. Shape. I'm trying to I'm
(26:48):
trying to imagine the things that would be said. Do
you don't need a government organization to actively you know?
But what I'm saying is those people who work in
the organization need to keep their jobs. In order to
keep their jobs, they have to I'm just saying people
do that for them. They don't need to help, you know.
(27:09):
Or I mean, the corporations are doing a fine job
of polluting jet they don't need the e p a's help. Well,
the e p A has helped accidentally a few times,
no doubt that. I'm just saying in terms of a
conspiracy involving the e p A. Actually, you know, on
their lunch break they go out and dump a bucket
of toxic waste in the river. You know? Is that
we're talking to Come on, unless they're getting money behind
(27:31):
somebody's back from an industry on purpose just to make
dump some toxic waste. Let's say, Oh, I don't know,
from the old gold King mind, Ben, I was gonna say, say, uh,
miss well, be yes, there is this idea that gained
a little traction with the legislature in Utah, which was
(27:52):
that the UH e p A did not accidentally release
three million gallons of my wastewater into the Animous River
in Colorado, that instead they purposefully did it, and Uh,
the state's attorney general was kind of like, uh, you know,
(28:13):
I don't know, maybe maybe who knows, Tupac might still
be alive. Well, yeah, it seems from the idea that
they were warned well in advance that there is an
issue here. And not only would this one king gold
or gold king mine, they're all these other minds in
that area that are are connected directly directly to rivers,
UH and groups they are just warning and mourning and warning, Hey, look,
(28:38):
these mines have wastewater and terrible things in them that
are going to get into the rivers. That we have
to do something about it. And it stinks because the
e p A really kind of has to table it
to a certain extent until they can get the resources
to take care of it. At least that's what the
e p A says. A representative named Mike nol s
the same way smelled the same way UH said that
(29:00):
the e p A might have caused the spill to
help environmentalists put an end to the hard rock mining industry.
I just don't see that. I don't know how that
would That's like such a Rube Goldberg machine of a plan.
I would need some proof to believe that. Do you
remember that board game mouse Trap? Oh? Yeah, it's it's
like a mouse trap level overly complicated plan. Yeah, you're
(29:25):
gonna bust a hole in this retaining wall and let
out all this stuff. By the way, the pollutes that
were let out and ended up what is an Animus
river and they got polluted. You're looking at extremely high
levels of lead, arsenic, cadmium, beryllium, and mercury in that water.
So anything living in that water, anyone using that water, Uh,
(29:48):
this is not good. And according to this one CNN
report that was looking at an actual e p A
report was talking about uh, perhaps because these are heavy metals, right,
and it's not that they just go away once they're
in a river like this. They sink to the bottom.
And then if you have catfish, catfish, anything else that
(30:10):
lives in there, or even if there's um a lot
of a lot of extra water moving through with a
little bit of flooding, you're gonna get that stuff. It's
gonna get up with the silt, get more problems. Anyway,
I just thought this was a really interesting and kind
of scary thing that happened on my birthday this year.
So yeah. E p A created in nineteen seventy to
(30:35):
look after the environment and a ruined birthday Facebook posts
on birthday. Yes, uh, well, I'm glad that they are
doing something. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, you know. Also,
the e p A does a lot of good work
that gets ignored, right, The squeaky wheels get degrease, right,
and the barking dogs are the ones you hear uh
(30:56):
and other various figures of speech. Point being were guessing
on the stuff that has been alleged or proven to
be shady, to be incorrect, to be corrupt, because that's
what we're looking to do. Um, if the e p
A does their job, then we have no idea. And
(31:16):
can the e PA do their job structurally given the
relationship between a business and a government, right or just
the sheer size of this regulatory body, how how are
they doing? Why do ex employees complain? But I guess
ex employees will always come out of the woodwork for anything, right, So, Uh,
(31:36):
we want to I guess we got to wrap it
up unfortunately, And we want to hear from you guys.
What do you think of the e p A. Are
you one of the people who thinks it shouldn't exist?
If so, I want to hear from you. I think
that's something like it needs to exist. That's what I think.
Just personally, I don't know, but I'm really interested in
(31:59):
hearing the opinion of people who think that it shouldn't
or that something different should exist. What would that be?
And um, tell us tell us what things are like
in your neck of the woods, especially if you live
in a different country. Do you have something like the
e p A. What do you think of them? Yeah?
Do you have any run ins with let's say, stuff
(32:19):
that's in your well water? Uh? If you live out
in the Northwest or something the Midwest? I wanna Yeah,
I'd love to hear stories of just dealing with even
like things like fishing advisories. Oh yeah, absolutely. So. You
can find us in various corners of the Internet. As
we always say, we're on Facebook and Twitter. Where are
(32:41):
we at on that you can find us? We are
conspiracy stuff on those We like using those. Yes, but uh,
there are two places, two ways to hang out with
us that I think are most profitable into like terms
of time. Yes, okay. The first one is to go
to stuff Don't want you to know dot com because
(33:01):
you can find this that we're doing right now. It
exists there every version of our audio podcast, every episode,
all the videos, all the pictures of Ben and Matt
hanging out around pylons, So Noel will be hanging around
a pylon to picture. Can I lean on it? Oh? Yes,
you can kneel. You do all with them more leaning? Okay, well, Neil,
(33:25):
I like I like it when there are levels. What
do people do people do if they don't like websites?
What if they just want to send us a direct message?
I I honestly don't know what. What do you do? Well?
I suppose you could send an email to conspiracy stuff works.
You're right from on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon. Visit
(33:50):
YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get
in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff
and it be
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Noel Brown
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