October 14, 2020 • 60 mins
Could a mysterious slab of stone near Kensington, Minnesota hold the key to a forgotten piece of ancient history? According to the true believers, this stone, discovered in the late 1800s, proves that Vikings made it deep into the interior of North America in the 1300s -- only to disappear soon afterward, leaving no trace but a grisly story carved in runes upon the stone. Tune in to learn more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of My Heart Radio Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call
me Ben. We are joined as always with our super
producer Paul Mission Control decond. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. As we've explored in previous episodes,
our species knows roughly when and how human beings first
(00:50):
reached the continent we know of as North America, but
we still continue to search for more concrete. It's gonna
be such a horrible pun later and sirs about who
these people were. And, as most of our fellow conspiracy
realists know, many of the things children are taught about
in North American history later turned out to be either
(01:12):
misleading or holy false. The best example of this is
probably the tale of Christopher Columbus or Christo Bauld Cologne.
Uh without dating ourselves, guys, do you remember being taught
about Christopher Columbus in grade school? Elementary MIDDLETTERA didn't he
sale ocean blue in Foh yeah, into our psyches. Uh yeah,
(01:39):
that that That's what I remember. But yeah, then the Nina,
the Pinta, the Santa Maria, all that stuff, And I
remember how exciting it was to say that quickly outside
of that, you know, as far as the actual explorations
and you know who was behind them, I vaguely remember
the details. But but yeah, Yeah. It's strange because a
(02:01):
lot of a lot of kids, especially in the West,
in the US and Canada, were taught a somewhat simplified
version of history, right of European transatlantic exploration towards this
continent and towards South America as well. But obviously, current
historical research indicates Columbus was far from the first European
(02:26):
to reach what we call North America. Right, But if
this explorer was not the first, then who was? According
to uh one group of researchers, the answer may be
found in a slab of rock located, of all places,
in modern day Douglas County, wait for it, Minnesota, that's
(02:48):
called the Kenzie did Ruined Stone. Uh. You know, you
pointed out this reminded you a bit of the Georgia
Guide stones and I definitely see the similarities. But first off, Minnesota,
it's inland. It's far far away from where a ship
would be at that time, right, well it is, but
but it does offer us a really good opportunity because
(03:12):
it's in Minnesota and it involves Nordic or Scandinavian runes.
I think we get to do both a Minnesota and
a Scandinavian accent. It is. It is pretty much between
Minneapolis and Fargo. I mean it's like almost in between there.
So here are the facts. What are we talking about?
(03:33):
I know some of us listening, Uh maybe our heads
exploded when they said, all right, well, finally they're gonna
give us the truth about the Rune stone, which is
a cool, very high sword and sorcery fantasy sounding word. Uh.
It dates back to There's a Swedish immigrant, his name
is Ulof Alman, and he like late in that year.
(03:56):
He he said that he had stumbled across a mysterious
stone while he was clearing trees and stumps from some
farmlands he had just acquired. Olaf himself came to the
US in eighteen seventy nine, so he had been here
for a while. Uh, this wasn't like he didn't just
get off of a ship and then go find a
(04:17):
tree with a stone in it. So he was he
was just like an enterprising farmer. And we know the
story of how he found the stone. Oh yes, the
tail goes that Olaf found this stone near the crest
of a small knoll, not that knoll, but an actual
k n O L L. And it was when he
(04:39):
found it he was laying face down, so you don't
even really understand what it is, right at least when
you first look at oh, there's a stone there. It
was tangled up in the roots system of this tree
that was there on the nola, a poplar tree. And
this is the way this tale goes. You'd think, okay,
it was just one day, but X where it's now
(05:00):
can't really agree on what day it was actually found.
When it was truly discovered, They put it somewhere between
August and the eighth of November of that year, so
that's a pretty big chunk of time at at some
point at which it was discovered. And you know, and
it's really one of those things if you're hanging out
(05:23):
somewhere near a tree, maybe by your house, it doesn't
matter where you live. If you're if you've got a
root system going on in some trees, you dig a
little bit, just a tiny bit, or even not dig,
just brush away some leaves and and stuff that's just
been lying on the ground, you might find some fairly
big stones. Yeah, yeah, it's not abnormal, it's not unusual.
(05:45):
Will define stones somewhere by a tree, right, Yeah, there
we go, we'll we'll workshop it, will workshop it. But
but yeah, you're right. Uh, according to the story, there's
a reason that this stone didn't just get you know,
tossed aside or used to build some rough structure on
(06:05):
the farm. It's because Oldoff's son Edward, who was ten
years old at the time, noticed something weird. He could
just make out. Of course this is covered in dirt, right,
if this story is true, he could just make out
what appeared to be markings. Uh not not just the
patterns of time or erosion, but what seemed to be
(06:30):
purposeful markings on one side of the stone. So they
clean it off. That's the sound effect for cleaning stuff off.
Everybody knows that one. So they're they're on the stone
and uh, they find these markings are an inscription and
it appears to be made by human beings. And it
(06:50):
appears that they have written in some some sort of
message for posterity uh in some kind of language. But
the farmers don't recognize the alphabet, which will also be
important later. And their farm is in a rural area
like The closest settlement is Kensington, Minnesota. Yeah, and this
(07:11):
word spread uh pretty quickly through Douglas County. On New
Year's Day at eighteen ninety nine, the mayor of Kensington, Minnesota,
a Swedish born gentleman by the name of John P. Hedberg. Uh.
Maybe a distant relative of Mitch. I don't know, it's possible. Well,
John P. Wrote a letter recounting this story to Sevenska
(07:33):
Americanska post in, which is a fancy way of saying uh.
Swedish American newspaper essentially, and that was the name of
this Swedish American newspaper in Minneapolis. And Hedberg in his
correspondence and closed a penciled sheet showing reproductions of the
two nineteen characters from the inscription that we're talking about
(07:56):
in his letter. In the body of the letter to Hedburg,
Um he guess that the inscription might be an ancient Greek,
which was a language that he couldn't read. He was yeah, right, yeah,
but um, he wasn't trying to put one over on
this guy. Um, he was genuinely interested. From what you
(08:17):
can tell from his letter to the papers editor and
publishers Hedberg was really just trying to get a little
help solving this mystery. He thought maybe there would be
some experts there that could, um, you know, point him
in the right direction. At the very least, he wanted
to know on the surface what was going on on
the surface of this strange stone that they found on
(08:40):
the surface, scraped into it with some sort of pointy object. Right,
you know, we're gonna get into it later. But you're
right to any paper, doesn't matter how you know, well,
they are known throughout the land. You're right to a
publication and you say, look at this thing I found.
It's really strange. What do you think it is? I mean,
(09:05):
you're letting you're letting that publication know that it exists,
and it could be it is a mystery, right no
matter what. Yeah, planting that seed. Well. Also, it's the
mayor of a of a rural area, so this is
one of the strangest things to happen, probably during this
mirror's tenure. But also let's let's assume that the editors
(09:29):
and publishers get a lot of letters in the post.
You know, maybe there's a two headed cow report, maybe
the crops are failing or overly abundant. The reason the
publisher reads this letter is because he is a friend
of the mayor, the guy who publishes the paper. Yeah,
or you know that time that that one big fella
(09:50):
through that little fella in the wood chip. Remember when
that happened. That was a big story at the time,
especially Yeah, but what it happened in the eight hundreds.
Remember they didn't have electrically powered wood chippers, so the
wood chipper wasn't uh so, yeah, so they spread this.
(10:12):
And I appreciate your point about possible motivations there, Matt,
because of course, the art of the con teaches us
that if you want to pull a good con, if
this guy's motivations were anything less than sincere, uh, then
you can't show all your cards at once. Right. The
mayor is talking to a personal friend of his, so
(10:33):
he uh he, in the most objective way possible, just says, okay,
here we go, what do you think? I think it
might be ancient Greek, but I don't speak it because
you know, if you want to real people in, you
let them feel like they're making the decisions you control
them making. Anyway, the stone is at least real. It's
not a the stone itself. Its existence is not a hoax, uh.
(10:59):
The same way that you know, we went through spate
of uh people claiming a few years ago to have
found Bigfoot's corpse, and those yeah, they had something, they
had something. One case it was like a guerrilla suit
in a cooler. But there is a real stone here,
and we have very great descriptions of it. It's made
(11:21):
of a hard gray type of sandstone called uh gray
whack w A c k e uh. It's it's about
the size of like your typical tombstone, I mean your gravestone,
not the pizza uh, which isn't bad uh. And it's
it's this irregular rectangle shape, regular rectangular shape. Uh. It
(11:42):
weighs about two hundred two pounds. It's thirty inches high,
thirty thirty one inches high, sixteen inches wide, about five
and a half to six inches thick. So it's a
it's hefty it's not something you casually carry around, and
it seems like it would be a difficult thing to
lose in the first place. Uh, but again, our species
loses cities, civilizations, entire eras of history. Who were the
(12:08):
sea people's anyway? Asking that question for the rest of
the show that it exists as long as we can
just keep saying see people. So I don't know why.
That just strikes me as delightful. The sea people. I
just think of a picture, you know, underwater dwelling types
with gills and webbed feet. I picture sea monkeys. I'm
(12:29):
just gonna be honest. It was hard for me not
to say that during the broad Sage collapse thing that
was pulling up images of old school sea monkeys, which
I think really some kind of shript. It's all sea
persons for me, you know persons, I guess, yeah, murperson,
bird person, all the hits, all the good ones. Uh.
(12:50):
So it does the everybody agrees this stone exists. It
has something carved upon it, right, has something carved into
the face of the stone. And the if you look
at pictures of this which are widely available online, you'll
see that the front face looks partially damaged, so as possible,
there was more to this original message. And now now
(13:12):
we get to the very strange part. We know what
the message says, sort of. We have a bunch of
linguists who have been looking at this since at least
and they agree kind of on this message. But Olaf
first he didn't. According to him, he initially thought that
(13:35):
this was some kind of Indian almanac. By whence you
meant Native American almanac? But later people said, wait, those
look like rooms. Was that a quotation sound or an
engraving sound? That was a mund The engraving sound is
more like a oh you made a sound earlier in
(13:56):
the episode. Was that a scrubbing sound, you man, that's
a cleaning, That's a I just I was. I was
clarifying our our sonic terms here. Yeah, it was ruins
runs you, Um, I don't know. On this show, we've
encountered runs many a time. I think, most commonly when
dealing with research on the Nazi Party. I think, at
(14:19):
least for me, that's when a type of runs we've
been encountering quite frequently. Well, the notion that they have power, right,
isn't that part of it? Right? The words have power?
In quite a literal way. Uh. Yeah, RUMs are used
in various magical systems or traditional beliefs. They have also
been uh kind of what's the word appropriated by political
(14:45):
movements or by metal bands and uh maybe they would
say that's not appropriation, but in the case of the
Nazi Party, it's definitely appropriation. Well, but just just from
a form factor. From like if you're thinking about fonts
or something, the runs such as these do there is
something about them that is striking um almost, I don't know, almost,
(15:09):
in the way the hieroglyphics have the same kind of
feel where it feels like there's more inside whatever is
written or inscribed than just letters. It feels that way.
It reminds me of the same with a lot of
um Asian characters, you know, where there there feels like
there's an imbued meaning um within the system. I mean,
(15:31):
it's much more. There's more to it than just a
straightforward a shape or a letter. You know, it feels
like it's got you could in the way that like
certain Japanese characters can tell a story, you know, with
with some brushstrokes, you know, or there's a lot more
contained within that one character than with just a letter
that would then be used to spell out a word. Right, Yeah,
RUMs are crazy. I I watched I've been rewatch. I've
(15:55):
been watching like two Halloween movies. Wanted two Halloween movies
a day, you know, to over and I stumbled upon
a film that I had never heard of, called Spell,
which is about a guy with O C D whose
spouse passes away. None of this is a spoiler, and
so he just sort of impulsively goes to Iceland and
he gets really wrapped up in Icelandic folklore and rooms.
(16:19):
And I fell into Uh, I fell into the rabbit
hole of Icelandic traditional beliefs, and I spent I swear,
I spent like two hours this past weekend wondering how
we can make it a stuff they don't want you
to know episode, until I said, I'm just gonna have
to I'm just gonna have to be content to name
(16:40):
drop that thing because there's not a conspiracy. First place
I I ever remember hearing about runes was in the uh,
the Hobbit movie where where then they're one of the gnomes.
Is like those are rude stones, you know as a friend,
and like, you know, because they do have power. They
are also in a lot of obviously like RPG type
game there in Legend of Zelda, their a way you
(17:01):
can power up a sword by adding a rune stone
to it that gives it a special property or whatever,
outside the scope of today's discussion, but still the point
is that language can be imbued with meaning and power
in the right hands, at least in theory. I really
hope some of you also teleported on Ruins and Ultimate
(17:22):
online the way I did, because that was one of
my favorite things. So let's just let's just talk about
these ruins for a little bit. Runs in general, it's
an agent North European writing system, right. It's probably first
developed in the second century CE, and most likely under
Roman influence. They were also taught in several places throughout
(17:42):
the world, specifically in Scandinavian um schools school children in
the nineteenth century. We're learning what ruins were UM, at
least in a general sense, in early education. In that way,
UM more as a history lesson, I think, I mean,
that's that's my understanding. It would be more of a
let's learn about our our history, our past. Now it's
(18:03):
a skull Amans thing they're teaching those kids spells, teaching
occult power over the elements, how to find fortune and
love and uh lay enemies waste. No, you're right, though.
Ruins are a real thing. Uh. They're very very popular
in fiction. But they are very much a real thing. Uh.
And they were taught in various parts of Scandinavia to
(18:26):
school children in the eighteen hundreds. At least we know
that for sure. Uh. So here is the translation. This
is again, this is a generally accepted translation. They're going
to be people who go back and forth about the
specifics here, but it's it's like a it's a confession.
(18:46):
We don't need a we don't need a prologue. Here.
Here it is. We are eight Goths and twenty two
Norwegians on an exploration valley from Vinland through the west.
We had camp by a lake with two scarys, that
small rocky eye. On one day's journey north from this stone,
we were out and fished. One day after we came home,
we found ten of our men, red with blood and dead,
(19:08):
a v M. Standing probably for a Virgo Maria or
Hail Virgin Mary, save us from evil. We have ten
of our party by the sea to look after our
ships fourteen days journey from this island, year thirteen sixty two.
Whoa thirteen sixty two. These runes are describing a couple
(19:29):
of different journeys that were taking, but one specific exploration journey.
I like how they put that from Vinland through the west.
Is that the same as Finland. We're gonna we're gonna
spend some time discussing what that may or may not mean.
I'm sure where is Vinland? You say? But yeah, really
(19:53):
interesting stuff like giving almost in uh sunken tread or
in a hidden treasure map kind of vibe like we're this,
we're this distance away from this stone from where we were,
also this other distance in this other direction away from
this stone for this other thing. Fascinating that this thing,
(20:17):
this message would end up etched in stone in this place. Hmm,
Well why is it there? How did it get there?
What does it mean? We'll tell you, well, at least
as much as we know afterward from our sponsor, and
(20:37):
we're back um talking about potentially magical artifacts found in Minnesota. Uh,
not too too too terribly far from Minneapolis, where we
know a magical creature once Dwelves Uh Prince the Purple one, um,
but unrelated to any Goths or Norwegians that I know of.
But the Minneapolis Journal actually scooped the Swedish paper that
(21:02):
we discussed, the Swedish language paper that we discussed earlier.
UM on that translation referencing said Goths and Norwegians eight
and twenty two in number. Um. And it was kind
of a thing. Um. The stone itself was put on
display in a bank, although this account we found on
(21:24):
the internet incorrectly refers to the bank as a drug store. Um.
And it's super important to note that olaf Olman never
actually was looking to get paid for his discovery. The
Minnesota Historical Society actually has a bill of sales showing
that Almans sold the stone to them for ten American
(21:45):
dollars in nineteen and eleven, which would be around three
bucks closer to two sixty dollars. So what's the deal?
Where do the facts and the fiction meet, and and
of which is there more? This is the question I
think we have for today. The first thing I would
(22:05):
put forward is, who's to say it wasn't a combination
bank and drug store. I mean, ever, everybody's seen those,
you know, you certainly will see banks in grocery stores
and drugs and pharmacies and grocery stores, though I cannot
say I have ever met seen a bank in a
(22:25):
freestanding drug store. But or maybe we just need to
pop up uh, you know, banking institutions are stressful for
a lot of people. Maybe we need to pop up
pharmacy right after you sign thirty years of your life
away and alone. I think I think there's probably a
law against that for good reason, But it's not a
(22:46):
bad idea. There's a lot of money to be made.
And then you can go next door to the combination
Pizza Hut Taco Bell and get a little snack. Seriously, yes, absolutely,
But also, you guys are familiar with the concept of
minute n X right where the drug store essentially will
have a physicians assistant care type situation. But but in
(23:07):
a drug store, why aren't there minute clinics with psychiatrists
in them having a crisis that has a psychiatrist installed
just waiting for you come come to me prescribe the
Probably because I would say probably because it's tougher to
help heal a wounded mind than it is to help
(23:29):
bandage up a broken arm. I don't I don't mean
I don't mean to actually do good for any patients.
I just meant to to push more pills. I got it. Okay, Yeah,
let the let the oxycotton tycoons know right, there's the
revenue stream, just like oil companies figured out plastic. I
hope those words don't come back to haunt us. There's
(23:52):
a point though, that I don't want to lose. We'll
get too far from the translation, and that is that
the Goths are Swedes. Goth is a word for Swede.
They're not the uh, They're not the Motley crew from
Letter Kenny or South Park, the Cure fans, you know,
with emo haircuts and potential like chain mail belts or
(24:14):
something like that black fingernail polish. They may have had
chain mail. Um yeah, likely on more than their belts,
though I would, I would, I would imagine so unless
it was something of religious or spiritual cultural significance. Yeah,
this is an excellent question about fact versus fiction, because
(24:35):
if the Kensington room Stone is what uh It's believers
say it is, and if the message on it is
true and is from thirteen sixty two, then it's hugely
important for our understanding of North American history, forget that
of world history. This would be a big deal because
(24:57):
how would how how would this group of Swedish people
and Norwegian people vikings working together? How would they how
would they reach the Midwest from Vinland? Right? Even though
they say they did at a great personal cost, they
paid in blood for this trip. Um, it's still it's
(25:19):
it's still a long journey. Maybe we maybe we should
pause for just a second to talk about Vinland. We've
been throwing this around. You've you've probably heard of Greenland,
You've probably heard of Iceland, and maybe the nifty little
story behind their names. Uh, Vinland is kind of in
that same headspace. It's an area of North America that
(25:41):
was explored by Norse vikings. Leif Ericson landed there around
one thousand CE. So you know, you don't have to
be a math doctor to know that's way before Columbus.
It's incredible to have that inscribed, you know, allegedly in
the hundreds. So I guess what I'm trying to wrap
(26:05):
my head around was reading this story from the is
it what is in the Minnesota post um and they're
discussing Vinland and the route through the West from Vinland
and what where that would be from where where it
would actually be located. And I'm genuinely a little bit
confused because it seems as though it's a bit unknown
(26:28):
where Vinland is ben do we have maybe I just
don't have it in my research, like actually where it
is located? So in current US yes, so right now, um,
right now. The popular consensus is that what we what
was described as Vinlands by Leif Ericson and co. Is
(26:51):
probably an area that includes Newfoundland and the Gulf of St.
Lawrence and maybe goes as far as New Brunswick. So
really it's it's Canadian, okay, but but but it is.
It is a wide range, and it is accepted as
fact that that these people arrived there in one thousand CE.
(27:12):
We just don't know what happened in the thirteen hundreds. Well,
and if you definitely want to learn historically accurate account
of what Vinland was, there is an anime manga series
called Vinland Saga. Uh so that would be the place
to go. I'm kidding, but it is interesting when uh
a country like Japan, uh, you know, portrays a culture
(27:34):
like the Viking type situation. It's very I don't know,
I'm I'm intrigued by this because it does appear to
be like Viking ships and swords and that kind of
high jinks. Looks pretty interesting. But um, so what would
what land mass would we attribute it to? Like if
does it still exist or find anything about? Oh, it's
(27:55):
just North America, just part of it, Okay, interesting, it
would be like the east upper upper eastern coast of
the North American continent. Uh. But from what we know
in the earliest accounts of land it was described as Uh.
It was first written about in ten seventy five, and
(28:17):
it was described as these remote islands. So imagine you
get close, you find some islands, and you think we've
gone really far, we should turn around. They didn't really,
from what we understand, they did not know the enormity
of the land mass that they were very very close to.
That makes sense. So Vinland at this point is um
(28:43):
we should also say it's the idea of these early
Viking explorers in one thousand CEU. It's a very popular idea.
It's in a lot of conversations in the zeitgeist in
the nineties in Europe and in the US. So someone
would probably no, uh, somewhe in Minnesota would have heard
(29:05):
this story, especially given the massive Swedish population, they would
have been familiar with this, and that's why it got
so much interest from the media. There was a flurry
of investigations. We're talking scholars and linguists. They dive into
this description and they're fighting back and forth like what
kind of runic system is this? How old is it?
(29:28):
That's the big question, right? And then historians and scientists
are doing the same kind of thing that we we
were just doing, where they're they're essentially pulling up a
map and they're going, Okay, fictional boat, how does it
get to Minnesota? You know what I mean? Well, dude,
there's it's it's fascinating. If you just read that translation,
(29:51):
doesn't it call the place where the tablet ends up
an island and not just a hill? Right? So that, right,
that alone makes the mind start wondering, well, wait, what
was this flooded? And unless you know the historical record
of the area you have extremely accurate information on that,
(30:12):
your mind may think, well, perhaps it was a lot
of a lot of this was flooded at some point,
even if it was only on a temporary basis. Um
to where this this whole area could be traversed by
ship or by boat rather than on on foot on land. Yeah,
it's a good point. I mean, we know that geography
(30:32):
can change, right, especially over over time. That's the thing.
If you're if you're hearing about this, and you're not
a scholar of ancient languages that are somewhat obscure, and
if you're not a forensic expert or a professional historian,
(30:54):
then this sounds like it's at the very least, it
sounds like it's an interesting thing, and it sounds very possible.
The stone itself ended up getting sent to some professionals,
especially one professor George O. Kerm, who was a philologist
at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. And so so he
(31:20):
looks at it, he looks at this draft people are
figuring out about based on what we know about the inscription.
And when he looks at this first draft, he is
he's got a little spark of hope, right, are we
about to learn more about hidden history? But then he
inspected the language on the stone itself, you know when
(31:42):
he did it, when he did a firsthand investigation, Yeah,
really really puzzled, and it led him and many others
to ask what the heck is going on? What is
the provenance of this stone? Will answer the question definitively afterwards,
maur Sponsor, Here's where it gets crazy. Okay, I gotta
(32:13):
say it. It's fake. What just just like that, it
gets crazy. It's fake. It's well, it gets a little
crazier than that. But the stone itself is nine eight
percent point nine hoax. Uh. It might be an historical
(32:36):
hoax like the Shroud of Turin or something spoilers, but
but this has proven pretty definitively. There are big problems
with the stories. There's not just problems with the the
story of the farmer finding it. There's a problem with
the story that's on the stone. Math problems right, like
problems and the farmer selling it for ten bucks even
(32:58):
if it was two sixty bucks. Come on, this is
things incredible tent bucks. Yeah. Look for the Vikings ships
to have made a fourteen day journey from alexandria Um
to where they ended up. The only possible route they
could have taken was from Hudson Bay, which is eight
(33:19):
hundred miles. As the crow flies longer. Uh, if you
take a more winding path like a river and having
to pick up the boat and put it back down,
which is a word I learned today called portage, and
um a particularly difficult distance to manage in fourteen days
in the way that it was described here in in
this on the stone, the route through the west from
(33:42):
vin Land, that whole situation, whose location in thirteen sixty
two would have been unknown. That's the thing we've we've
all kind of struggled with us. We were trying to
pick this thing apart. And no other record of this
expedition has been found literally anywhere. Um So why would explorers,
it just suffers such a massacre, stopped to carve in
(34:04):
these beautifully ornate, uh and organized characters the stone inscription?
I would you know, just to counter a little bit
to that last part there, I mean, if maybe the
belief is that all is lost, you want to warn
anyone else who's going to be coming this way about something.
(34:25):
Maybe you don't have enough information. So as one of
the men is dying, he's carving furiously trying to get
a message into this stone before he leaves, or before
his party leaves, or and he perishes. Just point it
out there, that feels very video game like to me
or movie like, but just as a possible reason to
(34:46):
make them look like that maybe a testament to the
lives lost there, maybe some way to make a mark
before they themselves disappeared. Would say that we do need
to point out the word no bi he's found in
the vicinity of the stone that we know of. Uh.
And it's also it's it's a good question. We don't
(35:07):
know why this would happen in a vacuum, why there
would be no other no other secondary source. If it's
a true story, then perhaps the grizzly fact of the
matter is that uh, the author, along with the their
cohort all died. Maybe no one made it back to
tell the tale of their you know, they're they're woefully
(35:32):
unfortunate trip. But okay, so that's a that's a huge
problem the math there. These folks were mavericks. If they
were able to if if they were able to uh
sail to this very specific place in a way that
would have required them to at some point pick up
(35:53):
their boats, physically carry them across the ground, put them
in another water. So we're continue on their marry. Wait
that's a lot, uh, but there's another problem with the
story and I hate to say it, it's a it's
a problem with the farmer. It's very very strange. I'm
not calling him a liar, just say it's very strange
(36:14):
that Olaf would not have recognized something familiar about rooms,
because remember, he grew up in Sweden, is during a
time when Scandinavian children were often taught about rooms. Uh,
he was not a I guess we wouldn't call him
a highly educated man, but that doesn't make unintelligent. He
was literate. He had a small library at his house
(36:36):
and some of those books had you guessed it, ruins
in them. Okay, So then we have to wonder if
the inscription itself the message, if it was genuine. M hmm, right, Well,
if someone were to inscribe something in what do we
(36:57):
call it that that's a fun word that we just
gray gray whack. If someone were to, you know, inscribe
this thing in gray whack, they would have to at
least have an understanding of what these ruins meant, how
to put them together to form, you know, sentences with meaning.
And you know, if the farmer does have these books,
(37:21):
he did grow up in a place where he learned
at least parts of this language. I don't know if
you have the nerve or the wherewithal to pull up
a prank or even a quick way to make ten
bucks the worst way to make ten dollars. Ever, that's
a lot of work to put in. Like how long
(37:43):
does it take? The look, I've never uh, I imagine
it would take a long time to carve something into stone, right,
So if you average out this is this is maybe
us being cheap skates. But it's if you average out
the uh that ten dollars across however many hours it
(38:04):
would have taken to make this, it's not a great gig,
you know what I mean. It's like if you were
being commissioned to build a piece of art in stone
for two hundred sixty dollars. That feels that feels cheap
to me for an ornate piece of stone. But I
don't know. Hey, it's also kind of an odd prank, right,
(38:27):
Like I mean, obviously we're talking about it. Obviously had
got some attention. You know, it was put up in
the drug store slash uh bank whatever whatever whichever when
it was combination drug store bank. But what do you
think the end game was just to make a fuss
just to get people excited. They're riled up. That's a
good question. There have been some people who guessed that
(38:49):
this conspiracy, and it is a conspiracy if it's a hoax. Uh.
There have been some people to guess that it had
more than one uh involved more than one person. That
one of Alman's friends pastor former pastor named Zvin vogel
Blob focal Blood, may have helped him out because Svenn
(39:12):
had a knowledge of Runes and according to a couple
of sources, again this is touchy. This is like, this
is like the Syrian sources writing about the assassins. You know, um,
there are sources who say that both of these guys,
Spinn and Olaf didn't like academics. Then like the Ivory Tower,
they resented him for some reason. So maybe this is
(39:35):
like a little a little philip toward them, or you know,
a bite of the thumb, just a quick philip. Yeah,
that's the word. Fa. We never heard anyone in like
twenty in the whatever this era is referred to flipping
(39:56):
someone a quick philip. I love it, I love it.
It's funny. We we mentioned at the top of the
show how this sort of reminded me of the Georgia guidestones. UM.
I think one uh misconception about the Georgia guidestones they're
a hoax, is that they're meant to be interpreted as
some sort of ancient artifact, like some sort of Stonehenge
(40:16):
type situation. But you know, it's certainly something that the
mind might jump to and just seeing it cold because
they do appear to be these ancient kind of carved
you know, granite slabs that that very much resemble a stonehenge.
But obviously we know, at the very least the mystery
behind that is what the identity actually was of the
man who paid to have them erected and designed. But
(40:39):
we know that a man did have them erected design
with full cooperation of the city and the you know,
you know, bought the plot of land and all that stuff.
So that's different, um, but still very interesting in that
they are both. You know, the guidestones are sort of
meant to resemble something that could be taken as ancient,
but it serves a much more modern purpose. UM. I
(41:02):
understand the meaning and the point behind the guide stones.
I don't understand the meaning and the point behind this.
If it were a hoax, right right, right, Yeah, So
that's that. I mean, that's a key question because, uh,
we don't have definitive proof that all off omen made
(41:24):
these things as a jolly prank. In fact, he never
admitted a hoax, even unto his deathbed. Again, as we said,
he wasn't. He clearly was not out to become wealthy
from this, and he was adamant. He stuck to his story.
It was steadfast about his version of events until his death,
and he stuck by the story even when the academics
(41:48):
that he reputedly resented came back with problems with the
inscription itself. They first analyze it in right same year
it gets reported, and a lot of these experts dismissed
as fake. Back then, they say there are too many
discrepancies in the form and the vocabulary. Because they're like
(42:12):
the Indiana Jones top men. They get together and they say, okay, look,
we are experts in a very specific field, the known
languages of fourteenth century Scandinavia, and we checked with each other,
and none of us think this is legit. They were
saying that back in early nine hundreds. Most experts since
(42:34):
then have agreed, Uh, but even if you say, even
if you say, well, maybe this person was just writing
in a weird way because around half of their friends
were dead. It was a very trying time. They were
very stressed out. Even if we accept that, we have
(42:55):
to ask ourselves about the age of these things, the
condition of the raw. Yeah, so they're you know, they're
picked up in eight nine, right, And if you if
you're talking about what is that five hundred years that
they would have been laying there, or yeah, more than
(43:18):
five years that they had been laying there, you'd think
that the stone inscriptions would have just been worn to nothingness,
or at least worn heavily after all that time of
just the elements and laying there being you know, scraped.
I know it doesn't sound like much, but being scraped
by roots and by dirt and as water runs underneath
(43:40):
it every time it rains, and all these other things.
But the weird thing is, though, to me, is if
it's laying on its face and it isn't directly being
hit by rain and debris all that time, I don't know,
I feel like it would degrade less so than if
it was facing up. But but maybe that's just my
(44:02):
ignorance as to how things actually get weathered, um and
what years can do to something. But you know, I
know that's certainly in question here. Why why were the
ruins still so intact and seemingly pristine? I see you're
saying if it was like mounted like a tombstone upright,
(44:23):
then it would be spared more like. And then then
if it were like uh, you know, mounted on the
ground facing up, then probably that amount of time the
ruins would have been completely wiped away. You know, well,
I guess what I'm saying is because of how it
was found. I correct me if I'm wrong, then, but
I think it was found face down like the runs.
You don't see the runes. You see just the rest
(44:45):
of the gray whack stone. You pick it up, and
then you see the runes that certainly would have preserved it.
I would imagine, that's my thought, But I know that
experts at the time we're just saying. I hear you know,
I hear what you're saying, Matt. This is what the
experts would have said. Hear what you're saying that. But
we're talking about five years. We'll also over yeah, over
(45:06):
five hundred years. Would root systems of other trees not
have broken. Yeah, engulfed it broken more of the stone
into bits or you know, eroded at time, wears on
things on all the works of man. Uh, so maybe
we can say, what about the most popular poplar tree
(45:27):
in town? How old was the tree? Uh? They did
an interesting thing, not super scientific. Uh, the tree that
held the stone was destroyed by But people went back
to the site. They looked around the area, They saw
other other poplar trees, like nearby copes of poplar trees,
(45:49):
and they they had local saying, Okay, these poplars are
around the same size, they're around the same age. And
then uh, the experts knocked down some of those trees
and through the magic of dindoc analogy, they figured out
that those trees were probably between thirty to forty years old. So, uh,
the age of that If that gives us information about
(46:10):
the age of the tree where the stone was supposedly found,
then we know that uh, that roots system had engulfed
it within thirty to forty years. Again, if if this
is true, because another person who was at the excavation
site later who visited it, UH County School superintendent named
(46:35):
Cleve Van Dyke said hold on those those trees are
only ten or twelve years old. But you know we
said that in the Minnesota accent. I meagine, and we
attempted ey attempted a nor a Nordic accent yet or
a Scandinavian Ben you promised us a B. What we
were talking, we were talking sor there we go. But
(47:02):
just I I hear you about the trees like that.
That makes a whole lot of sense as to why
it would have end up ended up where it was
if those trees were only that old, right the just
to jump back quickly to the inscription and the age
possibly of that there was there's an analysis in two
thousand three done on the actual inscriptions the ruins that
(47:26):
are you know, inscribed into into the rock. And there's
a person, Scott F. Walter who conducted this analysis, and
you know, according to him in his study, they were
around two hundred years old, So that would put them
in the eighteen hundreds we're talking about when they're you know,
(47:49):
first discovered and studied. Um, it's an interesting thing because
to me, I know that two hundred years isn't come on,
that's not an exact act number of years that these
inscriptions have been on there. But that gives you a
pretty at least a good idea of how old they were,
rather than seven hundred years, six hundred years, five hundred years.
(48:13):
But it is interesting to think that at least in
one analysis it put the range of old only around
two hundred years rather than you know, the five hundred
six hundred year range. Right, And even that, even that
measure is controversial, Right, You'll find a lot of people
who reject that. I just have to stay with this
(48:34):
casting characters, Who's who's the guy made Spinal Tap beston show?
Christopher Guest Christopher Guests feels like Kensington Runestones would be
a great Christopher Guest film. Oh, that's a really good
idea would be. There's a there's a really great, very
small part in um Waiting for Guffman where David Cross
(48:55):
plays like a historian or something and he's talking about
you know, he's like a UFO, uh, the enthusiasts, and
he said, in this circle and it's always two degrees
colder with a five percent chance of rain, like he's
out in the field. That's the only time you hear
from David Cross in that movie. But I love that part,
(49:17):
such a shot, shot, a bunch of other stuff, and
then it just ended up getting cut on the on
the cutting room floor because they play, they have a
good time with those movies. It's all, you know, mostly
improv I think, with like a skeletal outline. So I
wouldn't doubt that that there's probably some good outtake somewhere
out there in the world. Well, Chris, if you, if
you are listening to the show, let us know when
(49:40):
we can expect your feature film on the Kensington Ruined
Stone and whether or not it is a hoax. Uh.
This there's one thing that I held back on that
I think I think is substantive and should be mentioned.
There are a lot of people in the area today
(50:02):
especially who say they believe in the veracity of the runestone.
Now is that measure of sincere belief or is that
sort of like a regional pride thing? Right? Like how
I was gonna say, like how Atlanta still supports the Falcons,
But I don't think like like blame Missouri and their stools.
(50:24):
You know, that was another Christopher Guest reference. I'm just saying,
let's give it, let's give up both in But there
was one great comparison. I read from linguistics expert about this.
I'm just gonna read this line to you guys, just
the one line. Remember when Neil Armstrong landed on the
moon in nineteen sixty nine and said, l m a
(50:45):
O this is tight. That's uh. That language is off
by about fifty years, says linguist Jackson Crawford, and his
argument is that the language of the Kensington runestone is
off by about six hundred years. He's an he's an
old Norse specialist with a PhD. So, in his professional opinion, uh,
(51:09):
this was written far after it claimed to be written.
As a matter of fact, it may have been written
around the late eight hundred mm hmm. Strange and suspect.
It really just brings you back to the question why
why would someone do this? And if it was the
farmer will Off, then why would he? I mean, why
(51:31):
didn't he sell it for more money? Why didn't it
become a tourist attraction of some sort. We've seen on
this show several times throughout the years where in places
across the United States, a hoax of some kind will
begin and it takes on a life of its own.
And even if it has proven to be a hoax,
it becomes a museum or a place where you can
(51:52):
go and see it, and you know, the person who
founded or the family can prosper from it, even if
it is considered a hoax by everybody. I mean, it's
a it's something that can happen, and it didn't seem
to happen that way for all Off. It It's just
it's very weird and you didn't come forward to say, oh, yeah,
this was a hoax later on in life. Um, nobody
(52:16):
else did either. So maybe ol Off did discover something
that someone else hoaxed. Um, which is a possibility that
we can't completely throw away. But it's just I don't know,
none of it feels right, or maybe maybe it just
doesn't amount too much. I guess that's why there's such
a problem with it when I'm thinking about it. However,
(52:38):
you can go and see it right now. It's still
like this, and it's in a museum in the museum
right oh, yes, the Ruined Stone museum that you can
visit now, though maybe you don't want to go in person.
Maybe you can do it virtually, but if you were
going to go in person, it's at two oh six Broadway, Alexandria,
(52:59):
Minnesota A five six three oh eight. And uh, you know,
there's a phone number you can call and you can
see all this stuff and learn more about the runestone itself,
at least according to the museum at rune Stone Museum
dot Org. Yep. And while you're there, why not make
a day of it. Uh. The Runestone Museum is just
(53:19):
across the way. It's walking distance from the Legacy of
the Lakes Museum. And uh g, I could you not
a gigantic Viking statue? Nice? So well, then in the
runestone by the way at the museum is displayed beautifully.
It looks incredible. On that website you can you can
see lots of pictures of it. There's some videos in there.
(53:41):
There's I think a few ships, like Scandinavian ships, and
there's a whole Scandinavian heritage exhibit there. That's I mean,
I would say it's probably gonna be worth your time.
I'd love to go. Yeah, I agreed. I would also
love to check this out. You can see the story
of this, you can get a map of the county there. Uh.
(54:02):
You can also visit the Kensington room Stone Park, which
is a short drive from the museum and you can
learn more at the Kensington Heritage Society. We want to
say again, there are people like there are people who
believe that this is an honest the goshness Viking relic,
(54:22):
and then there are other people, to be candid, the
majority of academics who believe that it is in some
way and historical hoax. But don't let that ruin a
good trip to the museum. You know what I mean?
I I that's one of the only things I miss
is I miss museums. Miss handshakes. Those are always those
(54:43):
have always been weird. Hugs hugs are weird, but museums
are great. Yeah, museums were nice and in zoos yeah,
well yeah, the Atlanta Zoo is back up and running.
It's it's got COVID safe precautions in place with they
only let a certain number of people in and I
(55:04):
went and it wasn't too bad, And that's a good zoo.
I think Atlanta's there's a good zoo because it's a
lot of the animals that are in there wouldn't survive
in the wild, which maybe some people take issue with
that version of events. I understand that, but it does
it's it's okay with me. And just because the Kensington
room stone is likely a hoax, it doesn't mean that
(55:25):
Viking relics other Viking relics aren't real. It doesn't mean
that there are not more strange tales of Free Columbus
era exploration from Europeans. You'll you'll see all kinds of arguments.
There's there's one that's pretty interesting about Greek contact in
(55:47):
the fourth century b C. Because a guy named J.
Richard Stephie looked at the construction of a Greek ship
from the fourth century and found they used a mixture
of a gov leaves and pitch. Where does ave grow? Interesting? Right,
it's not proof, but it's it's not fire, but it's smoke.
(56:08):
You can also learn more about theories about the priory
of psion and things like that which are um of
varying lausibility and UH and the legend of St. Brendan,
the Irish monk UH. The list goes on. But I
think if we are doing due diligence and admitting when
(56:31):
something seems like a hoax, even though the story about
it would be cool, I think what we're doing our
due diligence. There we have to be careful to remember
that this does not in the sess. This does not
automatically mean every other controversial historical relic is somehow a hoax.
And I think it's important that we keep that kind
(56:52):
of thing in the backs of our minds whenever we're
exploring something like this, Like even if even if everybody
says it's a let's at least think about it in
on the base context of what everybody else is working
with before passing judgment. I think that's important. And to
that end, we very much want to know what you
think about the Kensington run Stone. Uh, and you know
(57:13):
any other thing that we just mentioned a few moments ago,
but the Kensington run Stone in particular, have you been,
have you seen it? Have you heard any tales about it? Um?
I'd love to know your experience at the museum again,
just so I can live through through your experience as
I miss museums along with Ben and Noll and Paul.
(57:34):
But yeah, you know what other kind of stuff about
you know, pre contact, pre Columbus contact from Europeans here
in the America's what do you think about all of
that stuff? You can contact us. We're all over social
media on Twitter and Facebook, we are conspiracy stuff. On Instagram,
we are conspiracy stuff show. That's right. If you want
(57:55):
to get a hold of us uh in a different way,
you can join our Facebook group which is called Here's
where it gets crazy easy as pie to get in.
Just a name and name, any name will do. An
interesting name, a name from conspiracy history, but but preferably
a name of myself or matter Ben or Mission Control
or Doc Holiday and you're in. Or just make Ben laugh. Yes, yes, uh,
(58:18):
someone had a great, a great pun and I was
laughing so hard that I just I just approved you.
And I'm sorry I should have saved it for the air. Uh.
But yes, yes, let us know. We try to be
easy to find if you don't sip the social needs. UH.
If going online is not your bag of badgers, that
(58:39):
we have a different rune stone for you to hit
up to contact us. Check out the series of uh
Nu miracle hieroglyphics on your phone your telephonic device, and
UH cast a spell you know cast one eight three
three see it with us st d W. White e
(59:00):
K and you will speak directly into a void that
may speak back. That's right. Rel poor one eight three
three std w y T k Rell poor everyone, Uh whatever,
my head. Maybe that's all good. There's there's three people
listening that got that, and I hope you appreciate it
(59:23):
as much as I do. Yeah, because I think we're
I think we're lost. Man, were trending. Yes, that's all good. Guys,
just gather as much blood moss and man man Drake rude.
I think if you just gather a bunch of that,
you need those re agents was that one from the
sky Rim then the dragon yell? Those were rude based,
weren't they? Yeah, exactly. Hey, And if you don't want
(59:50):
to do any of that, you can send us a
good old fust do ra. We are conspiracy at I
heart radio dot com. M Stuff they don't want you
(01:00:16):
to know is a production of I heart Radio. For
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Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of My Heart Radio Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call
me Ben. We are joined as always with our super
producer Paul Mission Control decond. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. As we've explored in previous episodes,
our species knows roughly when and how human beings first
(00:50):
reached the continent we know of as North America, but
we still continue to search for more concrete. It's gonna
be such a horrible pun later and sirs about who
these people were. And, as most of our fellow conspiracy
realists know, many of the things children are taught about
in North American history later turned out to be either
(01:12):
misleading or holy false. The best example of this is
probably the tale of Christopher Columbus or Christo Bauld Cologne.
Uh without dating ourselves, guys, do you remember being taught
about Christopher Columbus in grade school? Elementary MIDDLETTERA didn't he
sale ocean blue in Foh yeah, into our psyches. Uh yeah,
(01:39):
that that That's what I remember. But yeah, then the Nina,
the Pinta, the Santa Maria, all that stuff, And I
remember how exciting it was to say that quickly outside
of that, you know, as far as the actual explorations
and you know who was behind them, I vaguely remember
the details. But but yeah, Yeah. It's strange because a
(02:01):
lot of a lot of kids, especially in the West,
in the US and Canada, were taught a somewhat simplified
version of history, right of European transatlantic exploration towards this
continent and towards South America as well. But obviously, current
historical research indicates Columbus was far from the first European
(02:26):
to reach what we call North America. Right, But if
this explorer was not the first, then who was? According
to uh one group of researchers, the answer may be
found in a slab of rock located, of all places,
in modern day Douglas County, wait for it, Minnesota, that's
(02:48):
called the Kenzie did Ruined Stone. Uh. You know, you
pointed out this reminded you a bit of the Georgia
Guide stones and I definitely see the similarities. But first off, Minnesota,
it's inland. It's far far away from where a ship
would be at that time, right, well it is, but
but it does offer us a really good opportunity because
(03:12):
it's in Minnesota and it involves Nordic or Scandinavian runes.
I think we get to do both a Minnesota and
a Scandinavian accent. It is. It is pretty much between
Minneapolis and Fargo. I mean it's like almost in between there.
So here are the facts. What are we talking about?
(03:33):
I know some of us listening, Uh maybe our heads
exploded when they said, all right, well, finally they're gonna
give us the truth about the Rune stone, which is
a cool, very high sword and sorcery fantasy sounding word. Uh.
It dates back to There's a Swedish immigrant, his name
is Ulof Alman, and he like late in that year.
(03:56):
He he said that he had stumbled across a mysterious
stone while he was clearing trees and stumps from some
farmlands he had just acquired. Olaf himself came to the
US in eighteen seventy nine, so he had been here
for a while. Uh, this wasn't like he didn't just
get off of a ship and then go find a
(04:17):
tree with a stone in it. So he was he
was just like an enterprising farmer. And we know the
story of how he found the stone. Oh yes, the
tail goes that Olaf found this stone near the crest
of a small knoll, not that knoll, but an actual
k n O L L. And it was when he
(04:39):
found it he was laying face down, so you don't
even really understand what it is, right at least when
you first look at oh, there's a stone there. It
was tangled up in the roots system of this tree
that was there on the nola, a poplar tree. And
this is the way this tale goes. You'd think, okay,
it was just one day, but X where it's now
(05:00):
can't really agree on what day it was actually found.
When it was truly discovered, They put it somewhere between
August and the eighth of November of that year, so
that's a pretty big chunk of time at at some
point at which it was discovered. And you know, and
it's really one of those things if you're hanging out
(05:23):
somewhere near a tree, maybe by your house, it doesn't
matter where you live. If you're if you've got a
root system going on in some trees, you dig a
little bit, just a tiny bit, or even not dig,
just brush away some leaves and and stuff that's just
been lying on the ground, you might find some fairly
big stones. Yeah, yeah, it's not abnormal, it's not unusual.
(05:45):
Will define stones somewhere by a tree, right, Yeah, there
we go, we'll we'll workshop it, will workshop it. But
but yeah, you're right. Uh, according to the story, there's
a reason that this stone didn't just get you know,
tossed aside or used to build some rough structure on
(06:05):
the farm. It's because Oldoff's son Edward, who was ten
years old at the time, noticed something weird. He could
just make out. Of course this is covered in dirt, right,
if this story is true, he could just make out
what appeared to be markings. Uh not not just the
patterns of time or erosion, but what seemed to be
(06:30):
purposeful markings on one side of the stone. So they
clean it off. That's the sound effect for cleaning stuff off.
Everybody knows that one. So they're they're on the stone
and uh, they find these markings are an inscription and
it appears to be made by human beings. And it
(06:50):
appears that they have written in some some sort of
message for posterity uh in some kind of language. But
the farmers don't recognize the alphabet, which will also be
important later. And their farm is in a rural area
like The closest settlement is Kensington, Minnesota. Yeah, and this
(07:11):
word spread uh pretty quickly through Douglas County. On New
Year's Day at eighteen ninety nine, the mayor of Kensington, Minnesota,
a Swedish born gentleman by the name of John P. Hedberg. Uh.
Maybe a distant relative of Mitch. I don't know, it's possible. Well,
John P. Wrote a letter recounting this story to Sevenska
(07:33):
Americanska post in, which is a fancy way of saying uh.
Swedish American newspaper essentially, and that was the name of
this Swedish American newspaper in Minneapolis. And Hedberg in his
correspondence and closed a penciled sheet showing reproductions of the
two nineteen characters from the inscription that we're talking about
(07:56):
in his letter. In the body of the letter to Hedburg,
Um he guess that the inscription might be an ancient Greek,
which was a language that he couldn't read. He was yeah, right, yeah,
but um, he wasn't trying to put one over on
this guy. Um, he was genuinely interested. From what you
(08:17):
can tell from his letter to the papers editor and
publishers Hedberg was really just trying to get a little
help solving this mystery. He thought maybe there would be
some experts there that could, um, you know, point him
in the right direction. At the very least, he wanted
to know on the surface what was going on on
the surface of this strange stone that they found on
(08:40):
the surface, scraped into it with some sort of pointy object. Right,
you know, we're gonna get into it later. But you're
right to any paper, doesn't matter how you know, well,
they are known throughout the land. You're right to a
publication and you say, look at this thing I found.
It's really strange. What do you think it is? I mean,
(09:05):
you're letting you're letting that publication know that it exists,
and it could be it is a mystery, right no
matter what. Yeah, planting that seed. Well. Also, it's the
mayor of a of a rural area, so this is
one of the strangest things to happen, probably during this
mirror's tenure. But also let's let's assume that the editors
(09:29):
and publishers get a lot of letters in the post.
You know, maybe there's a two headed cow report, maybe
the crops are failing or overly abundant. The reason the
publisher reads this letter is because he is a friend
of the mayor, the guy who publishes the paper. Yeah,
or you know that time that that one big fella
(09:50):
through that little fella in the wood chip. Remember when
that happened. That was a big story at the time,
especially Yeah, but what it happened in the eight hundreds.
Remember they didn't have electrically powered wood chippers, so the
wood chipper wasn't uh so, yeah, so they spread this.
(10:12):
And I appreciate your point about possible motivations there, Matt,
because of course, the art of the con teaches us
that if you want to pull a good con, if
this guy's motivations were anything less than sincere, uh, then
you can't show all your cards at once. Right. The
mayor is talking to a personal friend of his, so
(10:33):
he uh he, in the most objective way possible, just says, okay,
here we go, what do you think? I think it
might be ancient Greek, but I don't speak it because
you know, if you want to real people in, you
let them feel like they're making the decisions you control
them making. Anyway, the stone is at least real. It's
not a the stone itself. Its existence is not a hoax, uh.
(10:59):
The same way that you know, we went through spate
of uh people claiming a few years ago to have
found Bigfoot's corpse, and those yeah, they had something, they
had something. One case it was like a guerrilla suit
in a cooler. But there is a real stone here,
and we have very great descriptions of it. It's made
(11:21):
of a hard gray type of sandstone called uh gray
whack w A c k e uh. It's it's about
the size of like your typical tombstone, I mean your gravestone,
not the pizza uh, which isn't bad uh. And it's
it's this irregular rectangle shape, regular rectangular shape. Uh. It
(11:42):
weighs about two hundred two pounds. It's thirty inches high,
thirty thirty one inches high, sixteen inches wide, about five
and a half to six inches thick. So it's a
it's hefty it's not something you casually carry around, and
it seems like it would be a difficult thing to
lose in the first place. Uh, but again, our species
loses cities, civilizations, entire eras of history. Who were the
(12:08):
sea people's anyway? Asking that question for the rest of
the show that it exists as long as we can
just keep saying see people. So I don't know why.
That just strikes me as delightful. The sea people. I
just think of a picture, you know, underwater dwelling types
with gills and webbed feet. I picture sea monkeys. I'm
(12:29):
just gonna be honest. It was hard for me not
to say that during the broad Sage collapse thing that
was pulling up images of old school sea monkeys, which
I think really some kind of shript. It's all sea
persons for me, you know persons, I guess, yeah, murperson,
bird person, all the hits, all the good ones. Uh.
(12:50):
So it does the everybody agrees this stone exists. It
has something carved upon it, right, has something carved into
the face of the stone. And the if you look
at pictures of this which are widely available online, you'll
see that the front face looks partially damaged, so as possible,
there was more to this original message. And now now
(13:12):
we get to the very strange part. We know what
the message says, sort of. We have a bunch of
linguists who have been looking at this since at least
and they agree kind of on this message. But Olaf
first he didn't. According to him, he initially thought that
(13:35):
this was some kind of Indian almanac. By whence you
meant Native American almanac? But later people said, wait, those
look like rooms. Was that a quotation sound or an
engraving sound? That was a mund The engraving sound is
more like a oh you made a sound earlier in
(13:56):
the episode. Was that a scrubbing sound, you man, that's
a cleaning, That's a I just I was. I was
clarifying our our sonic terms here. Yeah, it was ruins
runs you, Um, I don't know. On this show, we've
encountered runs many a time. I think, most commonly when
dealing with research on the Nazi Party. I think, at
(14:19):
least for me, that's when a type of runs we've
been encountering quite frequently. Well, the notion that they have power, right,
isn't that part of it? Right? The words have power?
In quite a literal way. Uh. Yeah, RUMs are used
in various magical systems or traditional beliefs. They have also
been uh kind of what's the word appropriated by political
(14:45):
movements or by metal bands and uh maybe they would
say that's not appropriation, but in the case of the
Nazi Party, it's definitely appropriation. Well, but just just from
a form factor. From like if you're thinking about fonts
or something, the runs such as these do there is
something about them that is striking um almost, I don't know, almost,
(15:09):
in the way the hieroglyphics have the same kind of
feel where it feels like there's more inside whatever is
written or inscribed than just letters. It feels that way.
It reminds me of the same with a lot of
um Asian characters, you know, where there there feels like
there's an imbued meaning um within the system. I mean,
(15:31):
it's much more. There's more to it than just a
straightforward a shape or a letter. You know, it feels
like it's got you could in the way that like
certain Japanese characters can tell a story, you know, with
with some brushstrokes, you know, or there's a lot more
contained within that one character than with just a letter
that would then be used to spell out a word. Right, Yeah,
RUMs are crazy. I I watched I've been rewatch. I've
(15:55):
been watching like two Halloween movies. Wanted two Halloween movies
a day, you know, to over and I stumbled upon
a film that I had never heard of, called Spell,
which is about a guy with O C D whose
spouse passes away. None of this is a spoiler, and
so he just sort of impulsively goes to Iceland and
he gets really wrapped up in Icelandic folklore and rooms.
(16:19):
And I fell into Uh, I fell into the rabbit
hole of Icelandic traditional beliefs, and I spent I swear,
I spent like two hours this past weekend wondering how
we can make it a stuff they don't want you
to know episode, until I said, I'm just gonna have
to I'm just gonna have to be content to name
(16:40):
drop that thing because there's not a conspiracy. First place
I I ever remember hearing about runes was in the uh,
the Hobbit movie where where then they're one of the gnomes.
Is like those are rude stones, you know as a friend,
and like, you know, because they do have power. They
are also in a lot of obviously like RPG type
game there in Legend of Zelda, their a way you
(17:01):
can power up a sword by adding a rune stone
to it that gives it a special property or whatever,
outside the scope of today's discussion, but still the point
is that language can be imbued with meaning and power
in the right hands, at least in theory. I really
hope some of you also teleported on Ruins and Ultimate
(17:22):
online the way I did, because that was one of
my favorite things. So let's just let's just talk about
these ruins for a little bit. Runs in general, it's
an agent North European writing system, right. It's probably first
developed in the second century CE, and most likely under
Roman influence. They were also taught in several places throughout
(17:42):
the world, specifically in Scandinavian um schools school children in
the nineteenth century. We're learning what ruins were UM, at
least in a general sense, in early education. In that way,
UM more as a history lesson, I think, I mean,
that's that's my understanding. It would be more of a
let's learn about our our history, our past. Now it's
(18:03):
a skull Amans thing they're teaching those kids spells, teaching
occult power over the elements, how to find fortune and
love and uh lay enemies waste. No, you're right, though.
Ruins are a real thing. Uh. They're very very popular
in fiction. But they are very much a real thing. Uh.
And they were taught in various parts of Scandinavia to
(18:26):
school children in the eighteen hundreds. At least we know
that for sure. Uh. So here is the translation. This
is again, this is a generally accepted translation. They're going
to be people who go back and forth about the
specifics here, but it's it's like a it's a confession.
(18:46):
We don't need a we don't need a prologue. Here.
Here it is. We are eight Goths and twenty two
Norwegians on an exploration valley from Vinland through the west.
We had camp by a lake with two scarys, that
small rocky eye. On one day's journey north from this stone,
we were out and fished. One day after we came home,
we found ten of our men, red with blood and dead,
(19:08):
a v M. Standing probably for a Virgo Maria or
Hail Virgin Mary, save us from evil. We have ten
of our party by the sea to look after our
ships fourteen days journey from this island, year thirteen sixty two.
Whoa thirteen sixty two. These runes are describing a couple
(19:29):
of different journeys that were taking, but one specific exploration journey.
I like how they put that from Vinland through the west.
Is that the same as Finland. We're gonna we're gonna
spend some time discussing what that may or may not mean.
I'm sure where is Vinland? You say? But yeah, really
(19:53):
interesting stuff like giving almost in uh sunken tread or
in a hidden treasure map kind of vibe like we're this,
we're this distance away from this stone from where we were,
also this other distance in this other direction away from
this stone for this other thing. Fascinating that this thing,
(20:17):
this message would end up etched in stone in this place. Hmm,
Well why is it there? How did it get there?
What does it mean? We'll tell you, well, at least
as much as we know afterward from our sponsor, and
(20:37):
we're back um talking about potentially magical artifacts found in Minnesota. Uh,
not too too too terribly far from Minneapolis, where we
know a magical creature once Dwelves Uh Prince the Purple one, um,
but unrelated to any Goths or Norwegians that I know of.
But the Minneapolis Journal actually scooped the Swedish paper that
(21:02):
we discussed, the Swedish language paper that we discussed earlier.
UM on that translation referencing said Goths and Norwegians eight
and twenty two in number. Um. And it was kind
of a thing. Um. The stone itself was put on
display in a bank, although this account we found on
(21:24):
the internet incorrectly refers to the bank as a drug store. Um.
And it's super important to note that olaf Olman never
actually was looking to get paid for his discovery. The
Minnesota Historical Society actually has a bill of sales showing
that Almans sold the stone to them for ten American
(21:45):
dollars in nineteen and eleven, which would be around three
bucks closer to two sixty dollars. So what's the deal?
Where do the facts and the fiction meet, and and
of which is there more? This is the question I
think we have for today. The first thing I would
(22:05):
put forward is, who's to say it wasn't a combination
bank and drug store. I mean, ever, everybody's seen those,
you know, you certainly will see banks in grocery stores
and drugs and pharmacies and grocery stores, though I cannot
say I have ever met seen a bank in a
(22:25):
freestanding drug store. But or maybe we just need to
pop up uh, you know, banking institutions are stressful for
a lot of people. Maybe we need to pop up
pharmacy right after you sign thirty years of your life
away and alone. I think I think there's probably a
law against that for good reason, But it's not a
(22:46):
bad idea. There's a lot of money to be made.
And then you can go next door to the combination
Pizza Hut Taco Bell and get a little snack. Seriously, yes, absolutely,
But also, you guys are familiar with the concept of
minute n X right where the drug store essentially will
have a physicians assistant care type situation. But but in
(23:07):
a drug store, why aren't there minute clinics with psychiatrists
in them having a crisis that has a psychiatrist installed
just waiting for you come come to me prescribe the
Probably because I would say probably because it's tougher to
help heal a wounded mind than it is to help
(23:29):
bandage up a broken arm. I don't I don't mean
I don't mean to actually do good for any patients.
I just meant to to push more pills. I got it. Okay, Yeah,
let the let the oxycotton tycoons know right, there's the
revenue stream, just like oil companies figured out plastic. I
hope those words don't come back to haunt us. There's
(23:52):
a point though, that I don't want to lose. We'll
get too far from the translation, and that is that
the Goths are Swedes. Goth is a word for Swede.
They're not the uh, They're not the Motley crew from
Letter Kenny or South Park, the Cure fans, you know,
with emo haircuts and potential like chain mail belts or
(24:14):
something like that black fingernail polish. They may have had
chain mail. Um yeah, likely on more than their belts,
though I would, I would, I would imagine so unless
it was something of religious or spiritual cultural significance. Yeah,
this is an excellent question about fact versus fiction, because
(24:35):
if the Kensington room Stone is what uh It's believers
say it is, and if the message on it is
true and is from thirteen sixty two, then it's hugely
important for our understanding of North American history, forget that
of world history. This would be a big deal because
(24:57):
how would how how would this group of Swedish people
and Norwegian people vikings working together? How would they how
would they reach the Midwest from Vinland? Right? Even though
they say they did at a great personal cost, they
paid in blood for this trip. Um, it's still it's
(25:19):
it's still a long journey. Maybe we maybe we should
pause for just a second to talk about Vinland. We've
been throwing this around. You've you've probably heard of Greenland,
You've probably heard of Iceland, and maybe the nifty little
story behind their names. Uh, Vinland is kind of in
that same headspace. It's an area of North America that
(25:41):
was explored by Norse vikings. Leif Ericson landed there around
one thousand CE. So you know, you don't have to
be a math doctor to know that's way before Columbus.
It's incredible to have that inscribed, you know, allegedly in
the hundreds. So I guess what I'm trying to wrap
(26:05):
my head around was reading this story from the is
it what is in the Minnesota post um and they're
discussing Vinland and the route through the West from Vinland
and what where that would be from where where it
would actually be located. And I'm genuinely a little bit
confused because it seems as though it's a bit unknown
(26:28):
where Vinland is ben do we have maybe I just
don't have it in my research, like actually where it
is located? So in current US yes, so right now, um,
right now. The popular consensus is that what we what
was described as Vinlands by Leif Ericson and co. Is
(26:51):
probably an area that includes Newfoundland and the Gulf of St.
Lawrence and maybe goes as far as New Brunswick. So
really it's it's Canadian, okay, but but but it is.
It is a wide range, and it is accepted as
fact that that these people arrived there in one thousand CE.
(27:12):
We just don't know what happened in the thirteen hundreds. Well,
and if you definitely want to learn historically accurate account
of what Vinland was, there is an anime manga series
called Vinland Saga. Uh so that would be the place
to go. I'm kidding, but it is interesting when uh
a country like Japan, uh, you know, portrays a culture
(27:34):
like the Viking type situation. It's very I don't know,
I'm I'm intrigued by this because it does appear to
be like Viking ships and swords and that kind of
high jinks. Looks pretty interesting. But um, so what would
what land mass would we attribute it to? Like if
does it still exist or find anything about? Oh, it's
(27:55):
just North America, just part of it, Okay, interesting, it
would be like the east upper upper eastern coast of
the North American continent. Uh. But from what we know
in the earliest accounts of land it was described as Uh.
It was first written about in ten seventy five, and
(28:17):
it was described as these remote islands. So imagine you
get close, you find some islands, and you think we've
gone really far, we should turn around. They didn't really,
from what we understand, they did not know the enormity
of the land mass that they were very very close to.
That makes sense. So Vinland at this point is um
(28:43):
we should also say it's the idea of these early
Viking explorers in one thousand CEU. It's a very popular idea.
It's in a lot of conversations in the zeitgeist in
the nineties in Europe and in the US. So someone
would probably no, uh, somewhe in Minnesota would have heard
(29:05):
this story, especially given the massive Swedish population, they would
have been familiar with this, and that's why it got
so much interest from the media. There was a flurry
of investigations. We're talking scholars and linguists. They dive into
this description and they're fighting back and forth like what
kind of runic system is this? How old is it?
(29:28):
That's the big question, right? And then historians and scientists
are doing the same kind of thing that we we
were just doing, where they're they're essentially pulling up a
map and they're going, Okay, fictional boat, how does it
get to Minnesota? You know what I mean? Well, dude,
there's it's it's fascinating. If you just read that translation,
(29:51):
doesn't it call the place where the tablet ends up
an island and not just a hill? Right? So that, right,
that alone makes the mind start wondering, well, wait, what
was this flooded? And unless you know the historical record
of the area you have extremely accurate information on that,
(30:12):
your mind may think, well, perhaps it was a lot
of a lot of this was flooded at some point,
even if it was only on a temporary basis. Um
to where this this whole area could be traversed by
ship or by boat rather than on on foot on land. Yeah,
it's a good point. I mean, we know that geography
(30:32):
can change, right, especially over over time. That's the thing.
If you're if you're hearing about this, and you're not
a scholar of ancient languages that are somewhat obscure, and
if you're not a forensic expert or a professional historian,
(30:54):
then this sounds like it's at the very least, it
sounds like it's an interesting thing, and it sounds very possible.
The stone itself ended up getting sent to some professionals,
especially one professor George O. Kerm, who was a philologist
at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. And so so he
(31:20):
looks at it, he looks at this draft people are
figuring out about based on what we know about the inscription.
And when he looks at this first draft, he is
he's got a little spark of hope, right, are we
about to learn more about hidden history? But then he
inspected the language on the stone itself, you know when
(31:42):
he did it, when he did a firsthand investigation, Yeah,
really really puzzled, and it led him and many others
to ask what the heck is going on? What is
the provenance of this stone? Will answer the question definitively afterwards,
maur Sponsor, Here's where it gets crazy. Okay, I gotta
(32:13):
say it. It's fake. What just just like that, it
gets crazy. It's fake. It's well, it gets a little
crazier than that. But the stone itself is nine eight
percent point nine hoax. Uh. It might be an historical
(32:36):
hoax like the Shroud of Turin or something spoilers, but
but this has proven pretty definitively. There are big problems
with the stories. There's not just problems with the the
story of the farmer finding it. There's a problem with
the story that's on the stone. Math problems right, like
problems and the farmer selling it for ten bucks even
(32:58):
if it was two sixty bucks. Come on, this is
things incredible tent bucks. Yeah. Look for the Vikings ships
to have made a fourteen day journey from alexandria Um
to where they ended up. The only possible route they
could have taken was from Hudson Bay, which is eight
(33:19):
hundred miles. As the crow flies longer. Uh, if you
take a more winding path like a river and having
to pick up the boat and put it back down,
which is a word I learned today called portage, and
um a particularly difficult distance to manage in fourteen days
in the way that it was described here in in
this on the stone, the route through the west from
(33:42):
vin Land, that whole situation, whose location in thirteen sixty
two would have been unknown. That's the thing we've we've
all kind of struggled with us. We were trying to
pick this thing apart. And no other record of this
expedition has been found literally anywhere. Um So why would explorers,
it just suffers such a massacre, stopped to carve in
(34:04):
these beautifully ornate, uh and organized characters the stone inscription?
I would you know, just to counter a little bit
to that last part there, I mean, if maybe the
belief is that all is lost, you want to warn
anyone else who's going to be coming this way about something.
(34:25):
Maybe you don't have enough information. So as one of
the men is dying, he's carving furiously trying to get
a message into this stone before he leaves, or before
his party leaves, or and he perishes. Just point it
out there, that feels very video game like to me
or movie like, but just as a possible reason to
(34:46):
make them look like that maybe a testament to the
lives lost there, maybe some way to make a mark
before they themselves disappeared. Would say that we do need
to point out the word no bi he's found in
the vicinity of the stone that we know of. Uh.
And it's also it's it's a good question. We don't
(35:07):
know why this would happen in a vacuum, why there
would be no other no other secondary source. If it's
a true story, then perhaps the grizzly fact of the
matter is that uh, the author, along with the their
cohort all died. Maybe no one made it back to
tell the tale of their you know, they're they're woefully
(35:32):
unfortunate trip. But okay, so that's a that's a huge
problem the math there. These folks were mavericks. If they
were able to if if they were able to uh
sail to this very specific place in a way that
would have required them to at some point pick up
(35:53):
their boats, physically carry them across the ground, put them
in another water. So we're continue on their marry. Wait
that's a lot, uh, but there's another problem with the
story and I hate to say it, it's a it's
a problem with the farmer. It's very very strange. I'm
not calling him a liar, just say it's very strange
(36:14):
that Olaf would not have recognized something familiar about rooms,
because remember, he grew up in Sweden, is during a
time when Scandinavian children were often taught about rooms. Uh,
he was not a I guess we wouldn't call him
a highly educated man, but that doesn't make unintelligent. He
was literate. He had a small library at his house
(36:36):
and some of those books had you guessed it, ruins
in them. Okay, So then we have to wonder if
the inscription itself the message, if it was genuine. M hmm, right, Well,
if someone were to inscribe something in what do we
(36:57):
call it that that's a fun word that we just
gray gray whack. If someone were to, you know, inscribe
this thing in gray whack, they would have to at
least have an understanding of what these ruins meant, how
to put them together to form, you know, sentences with meaning.
And you know, if the farmer does have these books,
(37:21):
he did grow up in a place where he learned
at least parts of this language. I don't know if
you have the nerve or the wherewithal to pull up
a prank or even a quick way to make ten
bucks the worst way to make ten dollars. Ever, that's
a lot of work to put in. Like how long
(37:43):
does it take? The look, I've never uh, I imagine
it would take a long time to carve something into stone, right,
So if you average out this is this is maybe
us being cheap skates. But it's if you average out
the uh that ten dollars across however many hours it
(38:04):
would have taken to make this, it's not a great gig,
you know what I mean. It's like if you were
being commissioned to build a piece of art in stone
for two hundred sixty dollars. That feels that feels cheap
to me for an ornate piece of stone. But I
don't know. Hey, it's also kind of an odd prank, right,
(38:27):
Like I mean, obviously we're talking about it. Obviously had
got some attention. You know, it was put up in
the drug store slash uh bank whatever whatever whichever when
it was combination drug store bank. But what do you
think the end game was just to make a fuss
just to get people excited. They're riled up. That's a
good question. There have been some people who guessed that
(38:49):
this conspiracy, and it is a conspiracy if it's a hoax. Uh.
There have been some people to guess that it had
more than one uh involved more than one person. That
one of Alman's friends pastor former pastor named Zvin vogel
Blob focal Blood, may have helped him out because Svenn
(39:12):
had a knowledge of Runes and according to a couple
of sources, again this is touchy. This is like, this
is like the Syrian sources writing about the assassins. You know, um,
there are sources who say that both of these guys,
Spinn and Olaf didn't like academics. Then like the Ivory Tower,
they resented him for some reason. So maybe this is
(39:35):
like a little a little philip toward them, or you know,
a bite of the thumb, just a quick philip. Yeah,
that's the word. Fa. We never heard anyone in like
twenty in the whatever this era is referred to flipping
(39:56):
someone a quick philip. I love it, I love it.
It's funny. We we mentioned at the top of the
show how this sort of reminded me of the Georgia guidestones. UM.
I think one uh misconception about the Georgia guidestones they're
a hoax, is that they're meant to be interpreted as
some sort of ancient artifact, like some sort of Stonehenge
(40:16):
type situation. But you know, it's certainly something that the
mind might jump to and just seeing it cold because
they do appear to be these ancient kind of carved
you know, granite slabs that that very much resemble a stonehenge.
But obviously we know, at the very least the mystery
behind that is what the identity actually was of the
man who paid to have them erected and designed. But
(40:39):
we know that a man did have them erected design
with full cooperation of the city and the you know,
you know, bought the plot of land and all that stuff.
So that's different, um, but still very interesting in that
they are both. You know, the guidestones are sort of
meant to resemble something that could be taken as ancient,
but it serves a much more modern purpose. UM. I
(41:02):
understand the meaning and the point behind the guide stones.
I don't understand the meaning and the point behind this.
If it were a hoax, right right, right, Yeah, So
that's that. I mean, that's a key question because, uh,
we don't have definitive proof that all off omen made
(41:24):
these things as a jolly prank. In fact, he never
admitted a hoax, even unto his deathbed. Again, as we said,
he wasn't. He clearly was not out to become wealthy
from this, and he was adamant. He stuck to his story.
It was steadfast about his version of events until his death,
and he stuck by the story even when the academics
(41:48):
that he reputedly resented came back with problems with the
inscription itself. They first analyze it in right same year
it gets reported, and a lot of these experts dismissed
as fake. Back then, they say there are too many
discrepancies in the form and the vocabulary. Because they're like
(42:12):
the Indiana Jones top men. They get together and they say, okay, look,
we are experts in a very specific field, the known
languages of fourteenth century Scandinavia, and we checked with each other,
and none of us think this is legit. They were
saying that back in early nine hundreds. Most experts since
(42:34):
then have agreed, Uh, but even if you say, even
if you say, well, maybe this person was just writing
in a weird way because around half of their friends
were dead. It was a very trying time. They were
very stressed out. Even if we accept that, we have
(42:55):
to ask ourselves about the age of these things, the
condition of the raw. Yeah, so they're you know, they're
picked up in eight nine, right, And if you if
you're talking about what is that five hundred years that
they would have been laying there, or yeah, more than
(43:18):
five years that they had been laying there, you'd think
that the stone inscriptions would have just been worn to nothingness,
or at least worn heavily after all that time of
just the elements and laying there being you know, scraped.
I know it doesn't sound like much, but being scraped
by roots and by dirt and as water runs underneath
(43:40):
it every time it rains, and all these other things.
But the weird thing is, though, to me, is if
it's laying on its face and it isn't directly being
hit by rain and debris all that time, I don't know,
I feel like it would degrade less so than if
it was facing up. But but maybe that's just my
(44:02):
ignorance as to how things actually get weathered, um and
what years can do to something. But you know, I
know that's certainly in question here. Why why were the
ruins still so intact and seemingly pristine? I see you're
saying if it was like mounted like a tombstone upright,
(44:23):
then it would be spared more like. And then then
if it were like uh, you know, mounted on the
ground facing up, then probably that amount of time the
ruins would have been completely wiped away. You know, well,
I guess what I'm saying is because of how it
was found. I correct me if I'm wrong, then, but
I think it was found face down like the runs.
You don't see the runes. You see just the rest
(44:45):
of the gray whack stone. You pick it up, and
then you see the runes that certainly would have preserved it.
I would imagine, that's my thought, But I know that
experts at the time we're just saying. I hear you know,
I hear what you're saying, Matt. This is what the
experts would have said. Hear what you're saying that. But
we're talking about five years. We'll also over yeah, over
(45:06):
five hundred years. Would root systems of other trees not
have broken. Yeah, engulfed it broken more of the stone
into bits or you know, eroded at time, wears on
things on all the works of man. Uh, so maybe
we can say, what about the most popular poplar tree
(45:27):
in town? How old was the tree? Uh? They did
an interesting thing, not super scientific. Uh, the tree that
held the stone was destroyed by But people went back
to the site. They looked around the area, They saw
other other poplar trees, like nearby copes of poplar trees,
(45:49):
and they they had local saying, Okay, these poplars are
around the same size, they're around the same age. And
then uh, the experts knocked down some of those trees
and through the magic of dindoc analogy, they figured out
that those trees were probably between thirty to forty years old. So, uh,
the age of that If that gives us information about
(46:10):
the age of the tree where the stone was supposedly found,
then we know that uh, that roots system had engulfed
it within thirty to forty years. Again, if if this
is true, because another person who was at the excavation
site later who visited it, UH County School superintendent named
(46:35):
Cleve Van Dyke said hold on those those trees are
only ten or twelve years old. But you know we
said that in the Minnesota accent. I meagine, and we
attempted ey attempted a nor a Nordic accent yet or
a Scandinavian Ben you promised us a B. What we
were talking, we were talking sor there we go. But
(47:02):
just I I hear you about the trees like that.
That makes a whole lot of sense as to why
it would have end up ended up where it was
if those trees were only that old, right the just
to jump back quickly to the inscription and the age
possibly of that there was there's an analysis in two
thousand three done on the actual inscriptions the ruins that
(47:26):
are you know, inscribed into into the rock. And there's
a person, Scott F. Walter who conducted this analysis, and
you know, according to him in his study, they were
around two hundred years old, So that would put them
in the eighteen hundreds we're talking about when they're you know,
(47:49):
first discovered and studied. Um, it's an interesting thing because
to me, I know that two hundred years isn't come on,
that's not an exact act number of years that these
inscriptions have been on there. But that gives you a
pretty at least a good idea of how old they were,
rather than seven hundred years, six hundred years, five hundred years.
(48:13):
But it is interesting to think that at least in
one analysis it put the range of old only around
two hundred years rather than you know, the five hundred
six hundred year range. Right, And even that, even that
measure is controversial, Right, You'll find a lot of people
who reject that. I just have to stay with this
(48:34):
casting characters, Who's who's the guy made Spinal Tap beston show?
Christopher Guest Christopher Guests feels like Kensington Runestones would be
a great Christopher Guest film. Oh, that's a really good
idea would be. There's a there's a really great, very
small part in um Waiting for Guffman where David Cross
(48:55):
plays like a historian or something and he's talking about
you know, he's like a UFO, uh, the enthusiasts, and
he said, in this circle and it's always two degrees
colder with a five percent chance of rain, like he's
out in the field. That's the only time you hear
from David Cross in that movie. But I love that part,
(49:17):
such a shot, shot, a bunch of other stuff, and
then it just ended up getting cut on the on
the cutting room floor because they play, they have a
good time with those movies. It's all, you know, mostly
improv I think, with like a skeletal outline. So I
wouldn't doubt that that there's probably some good outtake somewhere
out there in the world. Well, Chris, if you, if
you are listening to the show, let us know when
(49:40):
we can expect your feature film on the Kensington Ruined
Stone and whether or not it is a hoax. Uh.
This there's one thing that I held back on that
I think I think is substantive and should be mentioned.
There are a lot of people in the area today
(50:02):
especially who say they believe in the veracity of the runestone.
Now is that measure of sincere belief or is that
sort of like a regional pride thing? Right? Like how
I was gonna say, like how Atlanta still supports the Falcons,
But I don't think like like blame Missouri and their stools.
(50:24):
You know, that was another Christopher Guest reference. I'm just saying,
let's give it, let's give up both in But there
was one great comparison. I read from linguistics expert about this.
I'm just gonna read this line to you guys, just
the one line. Remember when Neil Armstrong landed on the
moon in nineteen sixty nine and said, l m a
(50:45):
O this is tight. That's uh. That language is off
by about fifty years, says linguist Jackson Crawford, and his
argument is that the language of the Kensington runestone is
off by about six hundred years. He's an he's an
old Norse specialist with a PhD. So, in his professional opinion, uh,
(51:09):
this was written far after it claimed to be written.
As a matter of fact, it may have been written
around the late eight hundred mm hmm. Strange and suspect.
It really just brings you back to the question why
why would someone do this? And if it was the
farmer will Off, then why would he? I mean, why
(51:31):
didn't he sell it for more money? Why didn't it
become a tourist attraction of some sort. We've seen on
this show several times throughout the years where in places
across the United States, a hoax of some kind will
begin and it takes on a life of its own.
And even if it has proven to be a hoax,
it becomes a museum or a place where you can
(51:52):
go and see it, and you know, the person who
founded or the family can prosper from it, even if
it is considered a hoax by everybody. I mean, it's
a it's something that can happen, and it didn't seem
to happen that way for all Off. It It's just
it's very weird and you didn't come forward to say, oh, yeah,
this was a hoax later on in life. Um, nobody
(52:16):
else did either. So maybe ol Off did discover something
that someone else hoaxed. Um, which is a possibility that
we can't completely throw away. But it's just I don't know,
none of it feels right, or maybe maybe it just
doesn't amount too much. I guess that's why there's such
a problem with it when I'm thinking about it. However,
(52:38):
you can go and see it right now. It's still
like this, and it's in a museum in the museum
right oh, yes, the Ruined Stone museum that you can
visit now, though maybe you don't want to go in person.
Maybe you can do it virtually, but if you were
going to go in person, it's at two oh six Broadway, Alexandria,
(52:59):
Minnesota A five six three oh eight. And uh, you know,
there's a phone number you can call and you can
see all this stuff and learn more about the runestone itself,
at least according to the museum at rune Stone Museum
dot Org. Yep. And while you're there, why not make
a day of it. Uh. The Runestone Museum is just
(53:19):
across the way. It's walking distance from the Legacy of
the Lakes Museum. And uh g, I could you not
a gigantic Viking statue? Nice? So well, then in the
runestone by the way at the museum is displayed beautifully.
It looks incredible. On that website you can you can
see lots of pictures of it. There's some videos in there.
(53:41):
There's I think a few ships, like Scandinavian ships, and
there's a whole Scandinavian heritage exhibit there. That's I mean,
I would say it's probably gonna be worth your time.
I'd love to go. Yeah, I agreed. I would also
love to check this out. You can see the story
of this, you can get a map of the county there. Uh.
(54:02):
You can also visit the Kensington room Stone Park, which
is a short drive from the museum and you can
learn more at the Kensington Heritage Society. We want to
say again, there are people like there are people who
believe that this is an honest the goshness Viking relic,
(54:22):
and then there are other people, to be candid, the
majority of academics who believe that it is in some
way and historical hoax. But don't let that ruin a
good trip to the museum. You know what I mean?
I I that's one of the only things I miss
is I miss museums. Miss handshakes. Those are always those
(54:43):
have always been weird. Hugs hugs are weird, but museums
are great. Yeah, museums were nice and in zoos yeah,
well yeah, the Atlanta Zoo is back up and running.
It's it's got COVID safe precautions in place with they
only let a certain number of people in and I
(55:04):
went and it wasn't too bad, And that's a good zoo.
I think Atlanta's there's a good zoo because it's a
lot of the animals that are in there wouldn't survive
in the wild, which maybe some people take issue with
that version of events. I understand that, but it does
it's it's okay with me. And just because the Kensington
room stone is likely a hoax, it doesn't mean that
(55:25):
Viking relics other Viking relics aren't real. It doesn't mean
that there are not more strange tales of Free Columbus
era exploration from Europeans. You'll you'll see all kinds of arguments.
There's there's one that's pretty interesting about Greek contact in
(55:47):
the fourth century b C. Because a guy named J.
Richard Stephie looked at the construction of a Greek ship
from the fourth century and found they used a mixture
of a gov leaves and pitch. Where does ave grow? Interesting? Right,
it's not proof, but it's it's not fire, but it's smoke.
(56:08):
You can also learn more about theories about the priory
of psion and things like that which are um of
varying lausibility and UH and the legend of St. Brendan,
the Irish monk UH. The list goes on. But I
think if we are doing due diligence and admitting when
(56:31):
something seems like a hoax, even though the story about
it would be cool, I think what we're doing our
due diligence. There we have to be careful to remember
that this does not in the sess. This does not
automatically mean every other controversial historical relic is somehow a hoax.
And I think it's important that we keep that kind
(56:52):
of thing in the backs of our minds whenever we're
exploring something like this, Like even if even if everybody
says it's a let's at least think about it in
on the base context of what everybody else is working
with before passing judgment. I think that's important. And to
that end, we very much want to know what you
think about the Kensington run Stone. Uh, and you know
(57:13):
any other thing that we just mentioned a few moments ago,
but the Kensington run Stone in particular, have you been,
have you seen it? Have you heard any tales about it? Um?
I'd love to know your experience at the museum again,
just so I can live through through your experience as
I miss museums along with Ben and Noll and Paul.
(57:34):
But yeah, you know what other kind of stuff about
you know, pre contact, pre Columbus contact from Europeans here
in the America's what do you think about all of
that stuff? You can contact us. We're all over social
media on Twitter and Facebook, we are conspiracy stuff. On Instagram,
we are conspiracy stuff show. That's right. If you want
(57:55):
to get a hold of us uh in a different way,
you can join our Facebook group which is called Here's
where it gets crazy easy as pie to get in.
Just a name and name, any name will do. An
interesting name, a name from conspiracy history, but but preferably
a name of myself or matter Ben or Mission Control
or Doc Holiday and you're in. Or just make Ben laugh. Yes, yes, uh,
(58:18):
someone had a great, a great pun and I was
laughing so hard that I just I just approved you.
And I'm sorry I should have saved it for the air. Uh.
But yes, yes, let us know. We try to be
easy to find if you don't sip the social needs. UH.
If going online is not your bag of badgers, that
(58:39):
we have a different rune stone for you to hit
up to contact us. Check out the series of uh
Nu miracle hieroglyphics on your phone your telephonic device, and
UH cast a spell you know cast one eight three
three see it with us st d W. White e
(59:00):
K and you will speak directly into a void that
may speak back. That's right. Rel poor one eight three
three std w y T k Rell poor everyone, Uh whatever,
my head. Maybe that's all good. There's there's three people
listening that got that, and I hope you appreciate it
(59:23):
as much as I do. Yeah, because I think we're
I think we're lost. Man, were trending. Yes, that's all good. Guys,
just gather as much blood moss and man man Drake rude.
I think if you just gather a bunch of that,
you need those re agents was that one from the
sky Rim then the dragon yell? Those were rude based,
weren't they? Yeah, exactly. Hey, And if you don't want
(59:50):
to do any of that, you can send us a
good old fust do ra. We are conspiracy at I
heart radio dot com. M Stuff they don't want you
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