July 9, 2025 • 76 mins
It's an open secret that not everything is as it seems in the world of diplomacy -- a great many individuals operate with some degree of subterfuge and invisibility. So what happens when things go wrong, and these often disturbing, unseen things become visible? Tonight's story takes us to Lahore, Pakistan: on January 27, 2011, CIA contractor Raymond Allen Davis found himself in a brutal firefight in traffic. What follows becomes an international scandal reaching all the way to the President of the United States. Join Ben, Matt and Noel to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They call me Ben. We're joined with our guest super producer,
none other than Gnomes Griffin. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know, and we hope this exploration finds
you well. If you are in your own global neck
(00:53):
of the woods, or if you consider yourself a tourist abroad,
We've got a real way for you tonight, folks, real
weird one. At least it's a real one for the
real ones out there. There we go. Yeah, that's nice, Noel.
You're a bit of a tourist right now? How dare you? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
I suppose you could say that, Yeah, I am on
a trip to New York City, But don't I don't
hang here like a tourist, or I'd like to think
so at least.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, you're a local now at this point, right, you
know where to go, how to step? You got your
supreme hat. You're looking good, you're looking.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
To I try to step right.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, So we all remember our earlier series on a
concept that mystified us unanimously, diplomatic immunity. Part of that
goes back to the idea that you might be walking
around anywhere in these United States where we often record
(01:51):
the show, and you say, I got a parking ticket.
I have to pay a parking ticket. How do how
do these swells and these posh folks never have to
pay parking tickets. We got into this concept of diplomatic community,
which became a two part series, right, like a two
(02:14):
chapter episode. How would we explain diplomatic immunity get out
of jail free card? Right?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Essentially, Well, it's a very specialized position that someone who
is working for a different country operating in your country
wherever you are, they can have they can have these
these special rules that apply to them, where all of
the rules in that country where they're operating don't necessarily
(02:43):
apply to them because they're special, and they can take
things in and out of a country as long as
they put it in the right pouch or the right bag,
or it has the right numbers on it, which is
really fun and special, and we got into it even
further when we did I think we did a third one,
(03:04):
right Ben on what do we call it?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Shadow diplomacy?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Shadow diplomacy? That sounds nice.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
That's a great setup. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and thank
you to everyone who reached out, including multiple tourism boards,
in response to our episodes on diplomatic immunity. And as
you said, Matt, shadow diplomacy, it's an ancient sort of
(03:33):
patch together series of gentlemen's agreements or traditions, and they
still play a role in the modern world. While we
were delving into this, we alluded to numerous instances where
some people will say diplomacy went wrong. So with that tonight,
(03:55):
we are exploring a specific case of a man that
may be known to sell. This guy is named Raymond
Alan Davis. So let's pause for a word from our sponsors,
and then let's introduce him. Everybody loves Raymond, except for
you know, Pakistan.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and many neighboring countries.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well right, right, right, all right, we're doing the break.
Here are the facts. Everybody loves Raymond, right except for
the countries that Matt mentioned just a second ago. Can
(04:41):
we learn a little bit more about Raymond Davis.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
We sure can so. First thing, Raymond Davis was not
born wealthy, unlike the oss Hires of the Golden Age.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
He was not an.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Elite East Coast blue blood type of fellow. Instead, he
grew up in big Stone Gap, Virginia, which, in his words,
was a blink and you miss it type town. Perhaps
could be considered by some like a flyover country type situation,
not in the Midwest, but still similar concept. Coal country
is what you might call it, isolated in the mountains
(05:15):
and to a large degree, very much hidden away from
the rest of the world, both geographically and politically, and.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Just really as an idea of a place that exists.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, and as we said, his family was not wealthy.
They were getting by. If you look in certain places,
you'll see that his father was a coal miner. You
also read about a stint as a bricklayer, also about
all of the jobs that his mother took on to
support the family when his father got injured, and just
(05:49):
you know, the struggles of trying to make enough money
to sustain what she got, not trying to reach for
anything huge and big out in the distance. Right. The
accumulation of wealth or something. It's let's get by.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, yeah, And these are fantastic points to bring up
in the biography. So to be clear, this is not
a situation wherein Old Wild Bill Donovan drops by you know,
Princeton or Harvard or something and says, who wants to
have an adventure over there? You know, with World War two.
(06:26):
This is a kid, He's very much a child at
this point who has a rough start. As we're saying,
he is, by the way, an award winning bricklayer. He
won a competition on that front, and he's as a teen,
he's shoveling snow, he's chopping wood, all to make sure
(06:50):
that his family can stay aflat. He has two siblings,
a mother and a father, so there are a lot
of people to support, and like so many other kids
in rural Appalachia, he wants to see the wider world.
And the best chance he has to pursue this dream
is the Armed Forces. So originally Raymond wants to join
(07:16):
up with the Marines. Noel can give us an urah
urrah if you will perfect we did.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Let's also remember that he's a big dude and he
Raymond plays football, he does wrestling, and he ex sells
at both of those things where he's an imposing force physically.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
The Armed Forces recruiters are not liking him for the Marines.
As he says in his later biography, The Or Autobiography,
the recruiters get this. They wanted toll skinny kids to
be Marines, and he was. This is a quote built
(07:59):
like a tree stump. So he is the opposite of
what the recruiters have in mind. And initially they tell him, Okay,
we're not gonna say no to any kid who wants
to join up with the war machine. You are going
to be what we call a sixty eight whiskey a medic. Ultimately,
(08:21):
I mean that's a field medic. He didn't know that
at the time. Ultimately he refuses that and he becomes
what we call an eleven mic that's an infantry man
in the US Army. So he gets shipped off to
Fort Benning, Georgia, first time he's ever been on a plane.
Georgia furthest farthest he's ever been from home. He's eighteen
(08:46):
years old. At this point. The world is ahead of him.
The horizon beckons fast forward. Stationed in Fort Lewis, he's
serving out the last of his four year commit to
the army, and then he has this life changing experience.
(09:06):
Some Special Forces trainers go to hangout and they have
all the ammo, they have all the cool toys, and
they have kind of a field trip and they say,
you know what, let's teach you how to shoot these guns. Right,
Let's teach you, you know, just a cool couple of moves.
(09:27):
And immediately this galvanizes him. It inspires him, and he thinks,
maybe I can one day become part of Special Forces.
It's a very difficult training regiment. The selection process is
(09:50):
such that there's a high rate of attrition. A lot
of folks don't make it. But lo and behold, Raymond
Davis cuts the mustard and eventually becomes what we would
call an eighteen bravo, a weapons sergeant. I don't know
if we can express just how brutal this training can be.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Oh yeah, this is intense stuff, for sure. I want
to bring something up that occurred to him right before
he signs up with Special Forces, which is interesting to
me and feels like another one of these moments that occurs.
He ends up spending a little bit of time right
before signing up with Special Forces in Macedonia, which is
(10:33):
it's a country just north of Greece out there, Bulgaria,
Serbia right around there in that area. And he's serving
as a UN peacekeeper out there. Yes, which to me
is the type of job that he's going to end
up in eventually. Not exactly the same kind, but has
a lot of similarities.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
I think, right, yes, I agree with that. I see that.
As you know, he's an international man by various points
of Macedonia is a fascinating country. It may be an
episode in the future. I love that you're pointing that out.
(11:15):
This experience running into some of the g Watt guys,
George Watson Special Forces guys out there in Macedonia.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Is that what g Watt means.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I take it to mean that it's it's based on
I mean, it's lightly based on the career of the
legend George Watson. So, as we were saying, Matt, this
guy comes back and he is incredibly impressed with the
caliber of character he meets in the Special Forces trainers
(11:53):
right in this kind of field day exercise, and he
signs up. There's a tremendously high rate of attrition. Everyone,
by the way, forget everything you heard about like Apocalypse
Now or the other war propaganda films. Everyone who applies
for special forces, if they make that initial application and
(12:18):
they fail the first time, they can apply more than
what the thing is most people, if they can't get
that mustard the first time, then they go back home.
They don't want to do it.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
Can't cut it right, can't cut that mustle.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Right right right, just so. And one of the most
think about it like grad school. One of the most
brutal aspects of this training is something called sahreve.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Heard about this recently in the TV series Lioness. They
depict it pretty brutally. It is essentially putting individuals through
the same kind of interrogation, torture, and absolutely brutal hazing
type rituals as maybe would be done to prisoners of
(13:10):
war or captured combatants.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Correct, yeah, yeah, could you give us the full pronunciation.
What is sarah an acronym.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
For it is survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. People can
literally die throughout the course of this training because of
its incredible brutality, and it includes some you know, real
Sophie's choice Kobayashi maru type situations, unwinnable situations, forcing an
individual to think on their feet and make some highly
(13:44):
risky choices in mega mega clutch situations. These are accurate
simulations of real world events where people are required to
or training trainees are required to live off the land
attempting to evade very very implacable and brutal forces that
are on their tail, and you will be captured, and
you will, to what I was saying earlier, end up
(14:05):
experiencing something very much like what happens to actual prisoners
of war.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The concept of all of this is to almost give
somebody who's going through it the muscle memory of knowing
what it's like to be either left behind when you're
on a mission, or I think it is that, right,
Like you're out there on your own, so something happens.
Now it's just you and the land and there's enemies
(14:31):
all around you, right Like it's something that psychologically they're
trying to put, they're trying to instill psychologically for every
one of these people, these specialists that they're going to
end up sending out there as teams in case one
of them is lost.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Right, we love a familiar situation, right, We do not
enjoy novelty rights. That's part of it, and the reason
I wanted us to refer to cope Yashi Maru for
any Star Trek fan is the that is a climactic
part of this sci fi training, the unwinnable situation as
(15:14):
we know spoiler for a very old sci fi series.
Captain James T. Kirk is the only guy who beats
the Kobyashi Maru test originally because he changes the rules
of the game. He moves the constraints, and that's also
(15:34):
part of sare training. It's it's weird, right, It's it's
a strange thing to picture in any job, but it
is a job and it does mimic to high fidelity uh,
the experience of when things go wrong to your point
(15:55):
matt muscle memory familiarity. So during this training, Raymond suffers
some pretty heavy damage to his right lung specifically, it's
nineteen ninety eight at this point, but the full consequences
of his injury don't come to bear until two thousand
(16:18):
and one, when that lung pretty much clocks out and
stops working. He has a significant other. At this point,
they relocate to Lexington, Kentucky. He goes to Eastern Kentucky University.
There are a couple of asset protection classes or courses
(16:40):
that he's very interested in. But he's not a classroom guy.
He doesn't want to be stuck in the stuck at
a desk, right, He wants to be outside his own words,
So he rigorously trains himself back to health. And at
every step of this band's origin story, we see a
(17:03):
guy fighting against the odds and succeeding at pursuits the
ordinary person may well find impossible.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Absolutely, And then, like everybody else you know, who joins
the military, you either continue your contract. You know, if
you're in for a certain amount of time, you either
continue it on or you're done and you leave. So
he ends up leaving I think this is in three,
two thousand and three, and he does what a lot
(17:35):
of folks were doing in the early two thousands who
were either leaving the military or who had been out
of the military for quite a while. They join up
with a very lucrative group, a specific group we've talked
about many a time on this show known as Blackwater,
(17:55):
and these are military contractors that are operating in all
kinds of different places in the Middle East in the
early two thousands.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, in Mina, right, Middle East, North Africa, a couple
of other couple other of fun excursions. They got a
Dave and Busters everywhere.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
It is.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
This is familiar to a lot of us in the
audience tonight. Let's dispel some myths. From Raymond's own words,
he argues, a contractor is not the same thing as
a merk or a sorry mercenary or a soldier of fortune.
In his experience, every contractor PMC private military contractor that
(18:40):
he's met is working for you know, your academia, your
ex your Blackwater, your brown root or whatever. But they
have all retained the ideological motivation of the United States
global game.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's like Wagner right.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Just so, and that's sear training. I mean a lot
of that is.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
I mean you can't really deny that it is indoctrination
as well. I mean that level of you know, intense
hazing and brutal treatment kind of that's maybe meant to
make this stuff acceptable in some way and also perhaps
offer a helping hand at the end of it to
get you out of it in some way, shape or form.
(19:26):
There is some psychological indoctrination going on there, wouldn't you say?
That would be really hard to shake in one's lifetime.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I would say so, I would agree ISI does something similar.
Most modern nation states have some version of that shake
and bake, right, and some non state actors do the same.
To be quite clear, for Raymond's perspective, every contractor he
(19:55):
has met functioning under the letters of mar of the
United States, they had a previous military career and they
are working to further that ideology, right, They're not, in
his opinion, there are not merks who say, screw the US,
(20:19):
give me ten thousand dollars a bitcoin and let's figure
out this West African country together. That does happen. But
those guys are not the guys he's talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Sure, but we're also taking the perspective of a man
who's been through the stuff we're about to talk about, right,
who has kind of been forced to play the role
of pawn in large political schemes and diplomatic things. So,
you know, it's just it's tough to know exactly what
(20:55):
that's like and what you would actually put in a
book when you write a book about your past life
and everything that's occurred and all of that.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Stuff, especially if they especially if you have a certain
set of editors.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Oh yeah, and a co writer. Was that dude's name Storm's.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Reback, Yes, yeah, different from Stormy Daniels.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, different from Stormy Daniels. Correct interesting character on other
books that he's co written, like officially, you know. And
as we know, anybody who's got co writing credits like
on Amazon has probably written way more books. Just their
name didn't end up on there.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Somebody else's did, right, right, Yeah, we've we've been through
the fire on that one together. H The idea is
that every contractor Raymond meets per his own government approved
autobiography or memoir, they all want to function for the
(21:58):
best interest of the United States, to quote, support and
defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies
foreign and domestic. That is such a banger line. I
don't know about you, guys, It never gets old for me.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Have you ever thought about unpacking it? I mean, like,
does it seem specific enough to you or is there
some kind of broad brush type language there?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Oh, it's totally broad brush. You nailed it, you know
what I mean? Especially the folks who wrote this were
clearly imperfect, and they were clearly and purposely vague. Right,
is what is foreign in the seventeen hundreds. What is
(22:43):
foreign now? What is domestic in the seventeen hundreds is
now right, right, right right? What is the defense?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, we learned what some of those things mean with
the remember those rock war tapes and some of the
things that came out via wiki leaks right around that
same time. Correct, specifically with blackwater contractors and the killing
of civilians. Kind of it's it's scary stuff. And we're
certainly not saying Raymond was a part of any of
that specific thing. It's just there. There's a complexity to
(23:15):
a military contractor.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Sure, yeah, and we also call it the Department of Defense, yes,
ten no notes. This idea of contracting is, by the way,
not an original pursuit. Contractors civilians assisting war efforts, which
(23:39):
would be the technical definition. They're present in the DNA
of the United States all the way back to the
days of the Revolutionary War. Very tall, very unhinged ginger
named George Washington was hiring folks I, you know, to
(24:01):
mainly to persecute for his cause. Civilians have always assisted.
Raymond's career is a reflection of that. It took him
around the world, especially in the wake of September eleventh,
we mentioned his time in Macedonia. We should also mention
(24:22):
his experience in Afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Ben I couldn't find much on his actual time as
a contractor for Blackwater in Afghanistan between three and six.
What did you find out there?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Oh, he's just having a grand ole time, you know, learning.
So you should see Matt's face, folks, learning some surveillance,
some infiltrations, some best practices, primarily in Afghanistan. At that point,
(24:56):
we're talking about protectingtecting arms of US interest, right, So
that could be individuals, that could be high value infrastructure
that could be believe it.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
There, giant palettes of billions of dollars in cash that
accidentally fell off a giant plane.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Counts as infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Okay, so it's really interesting. We don't know a ton
of actual detail outside of what stated in the book there,
but we do know. In two thousand and six, Raymond
leaves Blackwater, he leaves the Middle East, he comes back
to the United States, goes to Las Vegas. Yeah, you know,
(25:43):
his roots are in Virginia. His roots are you know, elsewhere,
maybe in Georgia after spending so much time there, But
he goes to Las Vegas and starts a private like
I don't know, what would you call it, almost a
he starts a private contracting service as like a bodyguard service,
as a know, anything you might imagine is almost private.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Intelligence, security consulting.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
There you go, that's a good way to put it.
We've met a few folks who are security consultants, who
really ex military, who just offer those services to anybody
who has the budget who needs some security, usually for
moving a high value person, just like he was doing
in Afghanistan, or high value assets, moving those things around.
(26:27):
He's the kind of guy that would do things like
check the surroundings of a meeting place right or where
a meeting is gonna be held. It reminds me a
lot of that character. I always forget his.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Name, Homer Simpson.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
That's the one specifically, Homer Simpson backing away into the bush.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
No, it's the character from Breaking Bad and Better call
Saul whose dogs like yeah, yes.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
It reminds me of a man true consult material, taking
his you know, police training and then just you know,
giving him a leg up in the world of crime.
So I think that's an interesting parallel that you point out.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
Matt.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
You can always tell those guys h new offense. Some
of us are listening tonight. We could always tell dudes,
it's not that you're mean or presenting something aggressive. It's
the fact that you always please beat me here. It's
the fact that you always look so tired whenever something happens,
(27:34):
and you're like, so, there's probably a tracer. It's probably
in the gas cap.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Remember the episode where he took the car apart entirely
and then couldn't find it and then finally found it.
Like it wasn't the yes, thank you, It was in
the gas cap spoilers, but it took him a minute
to find it, but he worked his butt off to
get there.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
If you can eat a gun, I'll just take one
of yours.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Take one of your yes, exactly the kind of guys
who are who will have someone tied to a chair
and roll their eyes and be like, ah, my niece
is real irritating, and when I have to do this today, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Y Well, the folks at the CIA.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Oh sure, yeah, take a little took a.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Little liking to whatever Raymond was doing, either during his
service or while he was out there in Las Vegas.
And wasn't it right after this that he officially gets
his green badge.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Predictable, consistent delivers we like those.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, then, that just means that he's officially a contractor
for the CIA, where he can go in and out
of Langley with a special little green badge that's given
out to these folks.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yes, that is a real thing. And with that brief background,
let's travel to Pakistan. We've given you the quick skinny
on an accomplished successful man. It's January twenty seventh, twenty eleven, right,
so about a decade after the events of September eleventh,
(29:16):
two thousand and one. January twenty seventh at this time
is going to be the day that changes everything and
puts the world very close to disaster. What do we mean.
We're going to pause for a word from our sponsors
and then we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy,
(29:41):
all right, Laharre Pakistan cosmopolitan place, metropolis, right, it's long
been considered the cultural capital of that country, just like
New York City. It's very crowded, just like Tokyo. It's
very crowded. It's also dangerous. As Noel said earlier, you
(30:06):
got a step right, so onto stage walks our guy Raymond.
He's about thirty seven years old at this point.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Right, and he's a CIA contractor at this point, working
with a team to safeguard US functionaries from the State
Department and us AID USAID. They're in Pakistan and surrounding countries,
most specifically and notably Afghanistan, and this is really really
important work. In most cases, these guys are for all
(30:35):
intents and purposes, ghosts. They're invisible attaches, perhaps some it
you know, consultants on board, attached to your local consulate
or embassy.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
And they're not.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
You know, typical soldier jarhead types out there knocking people
around in Okinawa or soul Korea. Instead, they are much
more like herding cats, you know, acting as a shepherd.
Functionaries kind of continually assessing the environment around them, observing,
(31:12):
making notes, familiarizing themselves with the region and the peculiarities
of the regions, specific details and customs around neighborhoods, or
assessments around a particular mission, in the hopes that the
people that they are safeguarding will listen to their advice.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
This is always a bit of a dice roll there.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Well, and let's just put this out here to state
it plainly. This type of role is not outwardly projecting
Hey I'm a CIA contractor Hey I am working with
the CIA. It's more like I'm gonna put my badge
underneath my shirt or whatever it is that I'm wearing,
so nobody knows who I am or what I'm doing.
(31:54):
But if I get stopped, I can pull it out
and say, hey, I'm with the Consolate or something like that.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Right. You can always tag base, yes, but.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
They are unassuming. If you encountered them, somebody like Raymond
in the wild, you would have no idea what his
job is and what he's doing.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
I'm just the driver. You get what I'll mean.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Well, and you could say that, right and maybe get
away with whatever you're doing.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
And I don't think so with that accent. No, I
don't think that accent will work.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
In karaate or something.
Speaker 6 (32:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But but I guess my whole point
is he looks like a civilian essentially walking around from
a different country.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And he's not driving a fancy car. He doesn't have
a suit from the high street. He's probably rocking the
kind of flad or flannel that you would see so
common in the Pacific Northwest or in Austin, Texas.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
And you can see pictures of his outfit very much
much can you can see pictures of his little Honda
Civic as well.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
It's a white Honda Civic, you know, good cars. This
episode is brought to you, uh within in part with
great disagreement from Uncle Sah. This is brought to you
by white Honda Civics in Pakistan. So look, this is
a tremendously frustrating gig. You were out there telling very
(33:28):
important people, right, very ideologically motivated people at times to
keep their own heads on a swivel. You thought the
bellagio was Harry, which it is right around two thirty
three am local time. This is a different world, right,
This is a world where someone may be bringing aid, right,
(33:53):
maybe attempting to provide medical care, and then they get popped. Right.
You have to understand there is a very small margin
of error, and people who are used to being treated
as though they are important often lose their faculties for surveillance. Right,
(34:17):
that that is just part of the gig. So a
lot of folks don't listen to Raymond, right, and he
and his team do it their best.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Absolutely, A couple of context pieces here we mentioned that
he is functioning essentially for the State Department and USAID,
the thing that just got almost completely fully shut down
here in the United States. USAID is the arm that
was What do we say, guys, we say it the
(34:48):
way they say it. They're providing aid to other countries.
And what does that mean money? It means money so
that certain functions can occur either within the government or
for support structures of a government. And USAID as a
part of the State Department slash US government, we provide
money to countries for things like stability, right to make
(35:13):
sure whatever governing party is in charge does some of
the things kind of the way we would like them
to do just a little bit, just enough, right, it's
a nudge. But that money that's coming in from USAID
is highly important, especially at this time to countries like Pakistan,
specifically to Pakistan.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Did you ever hear the old shipoleth that we we
used to go too often resources and inspiration? Oh god, yeah,
I don't know this one. Then tell me it's it's
where you it's like a shekel off, Yeah, let's shove
(35:54):
it off. No, it's a word or a saying. It's
a thought terminating cliche. That's okay, Like.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Like an anti aphorism, you could you could always resort
to one.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Uh. Look, people are resorting to these ideological laches or
to these clear and present from Raymond's perspective, to these
clear and present threats. So this guy is driving around
just like uh, he's done several days prior, just like
(36:33):
his team has done as well. And he spends he
spends a good deal of time in in his uh
autobiography talking about this Honda Civic and gnomes. We know
you love when we bring up the hondas.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
Uh, you're a guy, made no secret.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
About that, Ben, Yeah, out of respect to you.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Out of respect to you, Ben.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
No odyssees will be in my garage.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
There's one bad one. There's one bad Honda.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Just the honesty that my sister drives. But we did
have a whole conversation about Honda fits.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
No. Yeah, I love a fit.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
Yeah, I'm a fit man for love of you.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Man. All right, So you're welcome, buckeroos. So everybody please
do avoid Honda odyssees. If you take nothing else away
from this parable The headline is this Raymond is is
learning roots, right, evaluating the streets. So this is not
(37:38):
like driving a black cab in London. You can't just
know the fastest point from A to Z. You have
to know how that point or how that passage works
at any given time. Right. And so they're running the
roots right, and like you said, Matt, they're making it
(37:59):
muscle memory. And the headline is this both the nation
of Pakistan and the nation of the United States agree.
On January twenty seventh, twenty eleven, our guy Raymond is
in traffic. A motorbike stops in front of him. There
(38:19):
are two Pakistani nationals on that motorbike. One of them
per Raymond raises a firearm, which he says indicates clear intent.
And he's saying, like, there's one guy driving facing away
from him. The guy on the back is turning around.
He's got that little telltale bulge and he produces a firearm.
(38:44):
He raises it toward Raymond through the windshield of that
Honda Civic. Go time. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
Raymond reacts as per his training and shoots the men,
who are later identified as Faison Hider and Fai Sham
Shot also sometimes referred to as Mohammed Fahim, Fahim was
twenty six Hyer twenty two. Raymond shot five rounds from
his service weapon through the windshield of his Honda. Additional
(39:14):
reports claimed that he got out of the vehicle and
unloaded four more rounds into the men as they lay
on the pavement mortally wounded.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
My understanding is that he those initial shots through the
windshield right the person had the gun, and then he
got out of his vehicle and shot at the second person,
who was high driver right ain' away.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah. Yeah, and they when these two young men in
their twenties were already incapacitated. Pakistani news sources say that
he followed up, you know, and he double tapped essentially.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Well yeah, okay, So if we're putting Raymond in that situation,
in that moment when you see a gun aimed at
you and you're you're performing those capabilities on the behalf
of an intelligence agency slash, you know, USAID, slash the
State Department, you may imagine that those men are there
to kill you, and that is their only purpose. That
(40:16):
is why they're on that specific vehicle that can be
a speedy getaway, and that's why they're they're so mobile,
right with a firearm like that if you're in that
position and you have that training, I imagine that is
the reaction that you have take out the threat.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
The details though, as this goes on about what those
young men were actually doing and had been doing like
for most of that day and for several days, it's
a it's it makes it more complex, but it doesn't
make in my mind, it's weird. It doesn't make Raymond's
actions necessarily wrong, except for the continual shooting after the
(40:57):
threat is disabled.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Makes you wonder whether some sort of familiarity existed. Right. Look,
that's a great point because at this instance, the public
knowledge in Pakistan and the US, it begins to diverge, right,
and these two countries are agreed that these kids are dead,
(41:27):
these twenty somethings are dead or Raymond Alan Davis definitely
takes photograph and video evidence of the scene, and while
he's doing this, he is radioing the rest of the
team for backup. They have, in my opinion, a slightly
better car, sorry to say it, it's a Toyota land Cruiser,
(41:50):
and these guys go cinematic with it. They are attempting
to reach the scene immediately, and they're coming from a
private residence on Scotch Corner. Again, Pakistan and US media
disagree about what the GPS evidence presents, which we'll get to.
This land cruiser is super interesting if you're a traffic
(42:14):
cop in Pakistan, or what they would call a traffic warden,
just someone who asked to as you said, Noel, heard
the cats of motorbikes and vehicles, because this land Cruiser
is rock and fake ID. It has false ID registration
plates and despite you know, that's fine out in their
(42:39):
rural verbs right out when you're trying to get past
the checkpoint or whatever, people might not radio that in.
But false plates are not going to help you in traffic,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, especially if you're going the wrong way on a
one way street, right.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Right, Yeah, So quickly, this land Cruiser of invisible men
becomes cartoonishly visible. They swerve over a grassy median and
they blast through oncoming traffic. Picture literally every traffic scene
you've witnessed in a blockbuster Hollywood film. They're doing that
(43:22):
right now.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
And let's remember, a land cruiser is a giant suv. Like,
it's a big ass suv.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
It's a chonky boy for sure, right, and we're in
a land of motorbikes and honestly smaller, more economic vehicles.
So this whale is swimming against the tide around these
panicked dolphins, right and these workday salmon. If we're gonna
(43:49):
spin that weird fish analogy out see analogy out. Anyway,
maritime stuff aside, This is not the movies. This is
real life. That land cruiser which did have an excellent driver,
it hits an innocent bystander by both countries' reports. It's
(44:11):
a guy named Abador Ramen. He is on a motorbike.
And we have to remember that all those crazy chases
you see in film are not like what happens in
real life. In real life, people do.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
Die absolutely collateral damage. And this is you know, takes
what could have perhaps been a more contained situation and
now makes it much more of a diplomatic crisis because
Pakistan is not happy.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yes, And while all of this is happening, there are
three men. There are two men shot, one man who's
been struck by a large suv right in this traffic,
in this chaos. One of the men who has been
shot is dead on the scene. One of the other
men who is shot is in extremely c condition but
(45:00):
still alive. And then the man who's struck by the
sub is still alive in critical condition. They are both
like being hurried to a hospital as quickly as possible.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Yeah, the closest hospital, which would be called service hospital.
Fahim and Abador survive long enough to get there, but
they both die. And at this point, the crew in
that Toyota cruiser they ghost immediately and they are racing
(45:31):
hell to pedal. Like picture a fire truck right, picture
of fire truck that does not play the siren noise.
It is racing to reach the safety of the US consulate.
And apparently they're throwing some stuff out of the window
(45:52):
on the way. They're dumping some things. Do we want
to do a list?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
It's a weird list.
Speaker 5 (45:57):
It's a very weird list.
Speaker 7 (45:59):
Some of these things fetish, I like to bit, I
like to be bow here, Dennis, Oh my goods, gracious, no,
not quite right.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
We're talking ammunition, battery.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
Cells, scissors, gloves, a mask, and a blind phoat. Okay, Ben,
you were getting a little closer to what you're talking
about here, a baton compass. So some of this is,
you know, kind of wilderness. He boy scouty stuff, and
then some of it may be a little more sketch.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
And some of the yellow American spirits. No, I'm just joking.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
I oh, I believe there was a punch card for
a local shop and you know, a huge tragedy. Eight
of the ten holes were punched, so it was like
two sandwiches.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Oh man, whats the weirdest thing, you guys is that
the folks whoever was inside this land cruiser made a
great attempt to get to where Raymond was in his
Honda Civic, and yet they just decided the GTFO without
picking up Raymond, which feels like a really strange move
(47:10):
to me. I don't understand why you would just abscond
like that after causing such a scene without picking up.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
You know what I'm assuming is your target or you're
you're genle your teammate.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah, you're objective, Yeah, yeah, we if we game it out.
What most likely would happen in that situation is that
they were responding to the possibility of firefight, right, the
possibility of other folks going on the scene, and then
(47:45):
they got the order to skidadle back. We know that Raymond,
he was not abandoned by these folks. They're all following orders.
Raymond also attempts to move the Honda Civic has a
cartoonish windshield at this point, but it's still drivable, right
because there is no bullet that hit the engine. He
(48:08):
makes it as far as old Anarcholi Food Street, and
those traffic officers, those wardens we mentioned earlier, they ask
him to stop. They stand in front of the car,
he complies, They bring him to the police. Maybe at
this point we stop for a word from our sponsors
(48:31):
and then get to the you know, a fallow Yeah,
and we're back now. No earlier you said Pakistan is pissed.
Could you tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 5 (48:47):
Well, they're certainly not pleased.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
You know, as I was saying, what could have perhaps
been a little bit more of a contained situation has
now become really messy. Potentially, Pakistan is a government that
has been put in a particular tough situation because the
Honda was found to have a handgun, a telescope something
we're referring to here ben as a shadowy GPS not
a brand there are we talking about sketchy GPS type stuff? Okay,
(49:14):
fair enough, Burner cell phones. We've got satellite phone, the
kind of things you might find in a go bag,
minus the loose diamonds. We've got multiple IDs and bank cards.
Perhaps most disturbingly, how from their perspective, is a camera
with clear photographs of some stuff that Pakistan would prefer
you not to know. We're talking images of military installations
(49:38):
along the border with India.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
And we're talking images that somebody took with this camera,
like sy had this camera and they were walking around
military installations taking photographs of stuff, of our secret stuff.
And who is this guy? Basically is the question, will
you find that stuff in the Honda? You go, who
the F is this guy?
Speaker 3 (50:03):
Oh? Oh, I'm sorry, officer, I didn't know. I couldn't
do that.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Oh well, well then you're free to go.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Oh great, all right, five stars on YELP for you, sir.
So there's a side note here that point about military installation,
surveillance and photography is key. Pakistan is a nuclear capable
country and it is very much like ex partner angry
(50:35):
at India. They hate each other. The border ceremony is
amazing and worth your time. It went viral in the
West several years back. They do not trust each other,
and both countries are kind of frenemies with the US
and it's not their fault, it's based on US actions previously.
(50:57):
These are all rational actors.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Well, and there's lots of money getting pumped into both
India and Pakistan by usaid.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
You guys like money, let's have some. Yeah, never mind
the camera, so imagine the relative you don't want to
see Thanksgiving. This is far beyond that. Do we want
to talk a little bit just for context about India
(51:26):
Pakistan relationships.
Speaker 5 (51:28):
They are not buddies, they're not buckeroos.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Well, yeah, and this is something we're seeing play out
in the news now like s here in twenty twenty five,
where it's getting escalated, these tensions, these like hand with
a finger on the trigger, just waiting, just waiting for
the other side to do.
Speaker 5 (51:49):
Something type stuff.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yes, and at this moment we also have to remember
that it's twenty eleven. It's been ten years since the
September eleventh, a little less than ten years since that attack.
There are factions within Pakistan that are very much on
that track of what George W. Bush would call, you know,
(52:17):
terror like but really like groups are who are down
with we probably should destroy America kind of vibe that
is not the governing force within Pakistan because again that
force has little strings attached with all that US money
and other stuff coming in. So there's it's almost like
(52:39):
the tensions are ready to boil over from these other
groups within the country, but it hasn't yet. So it's
a delicate balance.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
And just like the CIA historically at times in the US,
the ISI, the inter services intelligence of Pakistan is believed
to bemised in one way or another by ideological factions.
This is again not a condemnation of these various intelligence services.
(53:13):
I'm just saying, if you hang out at a barber
shop long enough, you're gonna get a haircut, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
Yeah, or a good dose of hot goss, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
For sure. And so this is a pickle. Right, the
media gets in front of this story, the West and Pakistan.
All of the stands that still have something like a press,
they are publishing about this. Right. India is dining out
(53:44):
on this. They kind of love it. And we have
to remember that both of these countries, the United States
and Pakistan, they have a deep investment in one another.
Because of what you're describing war on terror. They're practicing
Kissinger level real politic. So Pakistan in that case, in
(54:05):
a zero some game, they want any possible negotiation leverage
over their frenemies in the West. The media war begins.
Uncle Sam immediately says, Raymond from Virginia, he's a diplomat.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
Well, this is a real test of all the things
we've been talking about, isn't it. Because they bulk at
that US claims that he is classified under the Vienna
Convention and is therefore subject to certain, you know, leniencies, privileges,
let's just say, dispensations. Pakistan disagrees, and legal arguments start
getting into the mix.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Oh yeah, well, and let's not forget. When Raymond finally
gets out of his civic and he gets pulled over
by those traffic cops, they're like, who are you? And
they take him into the police and they say who
are you? And he says, I'm a consultant. I just
work as a consultant at the console a general in Lahore.
I'm a consultant. And he picks up his shirt. Remember
(55:04):
we talked about having IDs and stuff on your shirt.
He picks it up and shows them, Yeah, that's who
I am. I don't have my passport and stuff on me,
but look I've got.
Speaker 4 (55:13):
This green badge. But he does not present specific diplomatic credentials.
This is something different, right.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
He's got a card essentially like our earlier conversations on
diplomatic community. He nailed it, guys. He's got a card
that that says call this person, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
So when when the US governor says, oh, he's a diplomat, right,
You're like, oh, okay, well wait a second, I don't
know about that.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
I don't know about that the government. It's a sticky wicket.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
Cricket's very popular in Pakistan, it is, You're right. So
the question becomes is this contractor on staff or is
he a hot head in acting on his own dangerous accord.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
Right or his dangerous civic Sorry right, no joke left by?
Speaker 3 (56:08):
That was great?
Speaker 4 (56:10):
Well?
Speaker 2 (56:10):
Can we also just state authorities are also trying to
figure out who those young men were on the motorcycle
because nobody knows, right, like, what were they doing there,
Why were they there? What was their purpose that they
were there to take him out?
Speaker 5 (56:22):
It would seem that they were there to assassinate this.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Man private eye of watching you.
Speaker 4 (56:28):
I mean, did they not pull up to him on
a motorcycle and draw down on him?
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (56:34):
Okay, that just seems like what it seems to me now, you're.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
Right, beautiful. But the official story is that these young
men were on basically a crime spree, of some sort
of low level crime spree where they're committing robberies, right,
and they just happened to pull in front of this Contractor's.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
Really really see a white guy, Wyhanta civic.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
I guess that's true.
Speaker 4 (57:05):
Maybe nobody's put it pointing the finger at something greater
than that.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
It's all about plausible deniability, right, like every layer of this.
Speaker 3 (57:15):
Yeah, it's true. So Raymond and Uncle Sam, the Department
of State, This, by the way, goes all the way
to the potus. They argue, this guy acted in self defense.
As as as we're saying there was a street level
crime spree, it could have been anyone behind that motorbike.
(57:37):
This guy happened to have the education and muscle memory
to respond to a threat. Pakistan's authorities disagree and they
say no, actually no, sorry, Uncle Sam, this is one
of your guys, and this American murdered two innocent twenty
(57:59):
year olds in traffic and then he escalated that incident.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Yep. Let's also gosh, there's so much context to this,
this thing that happens, right, That's why it's considered one
of those special moments that had ripples like that were
far reaching and that you can still feel them today.
Just before this, I don't know if it was years
before this or months before this, the United States sent
(58:26):
drone strikes to several areas of Pakistan. So within the
country there's already this resentment against the United States for
using these machines to come out and do targeted killings
or targeted strikes or what. I forget the words that
were used by the Obama administration back in the day,
but they were taking out specific targets with drones in
(58:48):
Pakistan around this time. So it is this whole thing
is almost seen as symbolic, right, especially for the high
level players.
Speaker 3 (58:57):
Right right, and this is in the mill u when
Pakistan and the US or trying to publicly play nice,
there's a lot on the line. I mean, I think
it was Pervez musha Ref was on the Daily Show
around this time. Do you guys remember him, President of
(59:20):
Pakistan Sorrry.
Speaker 5 (59:21):
Yes, yes, of course I do.
Speaker 3 (59:23):
Yeah, Yeah, it's an interview that's worth your time. So Raymond,
Raymond gets jammed up two charges of homicide, and the
evidence is there he did shoot these kits for sure.
Speaker 4 (59:38):
I mean, he's becoming kind of the sacrificial lamb in
this diplomatic hubbub. The US, however, does pressure Pakistan to
free him, though Pakistan initially bucks and in later conversations
were the kind that you might have at one of
those out of the way cafes that we described ben
where we're exchanging the face down you know, the cocktail,
napkins or whatever. In that scenari I am from our
(01:00:00):
first series on diplomatic community, Pakistan and the US do
hatch a deal. It was agreed usually that these two
kids on bikes were ISI agents. In the official US
story of an attempted robbery would prove completely or at
least largely false, but potentially worthy of holding some water.
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
There was a lot of back and forth. There are
high level attorneys hanging out in Pakistan on the part
of the US, attempting to negotiate to get this guy
out of the country before charges are laid at his feet.
Before they're you know, officially going to trial for any
of this stuff, before the s hits the f or
(01:00:42):
however that works, and.
Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
How does that work? Bett, Have you ever defecated on
a fan?
Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Well, look, in certain situations that I can think of
in the past, there would be a problem if there
was a fan, like in the vicinity. Maybe. Well, guys,
it really depends on what your diet looks like in
certain you know, bacteria, it's way, yeah, anyway, it's it's
(01:01:17):
going really bad. But that there's this other thing that
gets floated after the prosecutor gets switched out, which is
an interesting thing that occurs, and it's you can look
at various news sources, including the New York Times to
see like the strange ways that on the Pakistan side,
the folks who are going to prosecute this person got
(01:01:38):
switched out and all of a sudden, this new concept arises.
Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Well, it's an old concept. We have to recognize that
every sovereign nation is entitled to its own judicial system. Pakistan,
being Islamic country, functions largely under Islamic law, which is
we see and an ancient concept that is considered legal
(01:02:07):
in this part of the world. Come into play. That
concept is the the closest translation in the West would
be something like blood price compensation for the people that
you have killed. And this is not unique to Pakistan.
It's not unique to Islam. It may sound strange to
people from the United States, but just because you're from
(01:02:31):
the US doesn't mean you know you know everything. Well.
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Yeah, And just to clarify when I say a new concept,
what I mean is it wasn't being talked about as
an even possibility for this specific case with an American
who has killed two people in Pakistan who were Pakistani.
Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
It's it's introduced.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yes, it gets introduced as the prosecutors switch out.
Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
So the United States pays something around two point four
million USD under Islamic law, they pay this blood price.
And so it comes to pass that on March sixteenth,
twenty eleven, Pakistan's judicial system acquits Raymond Allen Davis of
(01:03:19):
every charge of any charges. And they were really gonna
jam this guy up for multiple things like even uto
traffic violations like you're driving a car with a broken windshield,
screw you man, like all of this stuff. They wanted
to put him under the jail. But this price comes
(01:03:39):
in he catches the next plane out of the country secretly.
Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Yeah, well as does as do well. Yeah, and he
has to Afghanistan by the way to get to the US.
But the families that receive the blood money, the three
different families, they are all secreted away as well.
Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Yes, and Pakistan Pakistani politicians lose their careers over this.
Multiple Some people are saying, no, this is stinky, you know,
this is s hits the f and I don't like it,
and I don't like what it says about geopolitics. Boom,
(01:04:23):
they get sacked. Other people say, eh, yeah, you know
this is good. You gotta make it work. They get sacked.
Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
This is a absolute crisis for diplomacy Monty Python levels
of sackings taking place.
Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Yeah, sacks all the way down. Man, it's sacking fifth Avenue.
Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Then, No, exactly, And like you said, Ben, at this point,
I mean, it's so stinky and sacky that the president
himself actually is forced to respond.
Speaker 5 (01:04:52):
There's no way around it.
Speaker 4 (01:04:53):
This is potentially blowing up into an outright diplomatic crisis.
Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Yep, solutely. Let's also remember that this is now in
February of twenty eleven. All of this is going down
where even the United States President is getting involved.
Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Right, So February is when it goes up to Potus
and Congress. Right March is when Raymond Allen Davis becomes
free and has to escape. But look for anybody in
the audience, and I'm sure there are a few of
us and have adventures. Be safe. You know well that
(01:05:36):
any time the president has to go in public and
say some stuff to respond, like to respond to an incident,
you're in trouble. You know what I mean. It's like
being a second grader and you hear the announcements at
school and the principal gets on the mic and says, also,
(01:06:00):
I want to have a quick word about Noel Brown
or Dak Frederick right to the office, right right, right.
There were some incidents at the neighboring high school, at
the neighboring elementary schools. It's just a bad look all around.
And we the public will never know what got discussed
(01:06:21):
in those back rooms.
Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
No, no, we will not. We won't know the full
story because it was really fishy, something weird was going on.
What happened two months later? Anybody remember what happened two
months later?
Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Bottabad no comment? Uh, the world's most wanted man was
assassinated in a compound where there were stealth helicopters used.
Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
No comment.
Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Where the CIA had been operating for Oh, I don't know,
months and months and months trying to track down Osama
bin laden via vaccinations.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
No comment. M Oh my gosh, that sounded sketchy. Yeah, right, fine, No,
you're right, Matt, as as usual, you are absolutely correct.
There are always a larger pieces at play. Yeah, and
you're right. What we can say is that Raymond Davis
is not some kind of super villain. He's not some doctor. No,
(01:07:24):
he's not some kind of James Bond. By his own account,
he will deny you know, this double O seven appellation,
that Appalachian appellation that people put on him. He's a
kid from Wise County, Virginia. In his perspective, he's serving
his country. He never never imagined that he might be
(01:07:48):
the individual triggering such extreme events. But to know your
earlier point about powder kegs right and boiling water, it's
fair to ask if something like this would have happened
inevitably right, Because the entire time this is happening, factions
of an ISI know exactly where obl is it's just irrefutable.
Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Yep. It was a delicate little game that was being played.
Like everybody knows that, like to some extent, all sides
know that there are Americans operating beneath the consulate or
for the consulate or for the embassy who are inside
the country searching for this person, and they have been
(01:08:36):
for almost ten years.
Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
And like check his watch.
Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
I'm just saying it. It's known. Everybody is just aware
that this is happening, right, because it's it's if you
thought it wasn't happening, you know, you're being naive on
those levels.
Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
We're here for the museums, you know what I mean.
We're big fans of architecture and we like to see
out of the way architecture. I'm sorry, officer, I did
not know.
Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
I could not do that well exactly. But the Americans
who are operating in Pakistan know that the intelligence services
there are keeping an eye on them. So and if
they believe, like they had around this time, that they
had located the correct compound where Osama bin Laden was hiding,
you have to that side is pretending like they don't know, right,
(01:09:28):
and then the other side is trying to figure out
what each other knows. It's just it gets so complicated.
Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
It's a weird, toxic relationship often with these countries, allies
and enemies alike. To this very evening, we're gonna hear
multiple differing accounts of what is called the Raymond Allen
Davis incident in the West to our friends in Pakistan
and points abroad. It's a harrowing parable about how no
(01:09:58):
country should or trust the United States. This country, the
US has a terrible reputation right now for sort of
moving with the wind and the whims, which people don't like.
I get it. You would you know, you crack a
deal with one person who is supposedly in charge of
(01:10:22):
the country. Four years later there's another person and they say, ah,
forget that other guy. Here's my weird thing. How do
you feel about how the civics And then you have
to be like, I guess this is cool for four years.
But to the United States, this is a moral play.
This is the argument that if you send someone in,
(01:10:44):
you may damn sure you get them back, and ideally
you keep that invisible. This is a case where the
conspiracy was revealed.
Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Yeah it was. I didn't realize you guys that the
Guardian newspaper is the out that officially stated out loud
that Raymond Davis was employed by the CIA.
Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Right, Yeah, they were first to the post on it.
Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
That was February twentieth, twenty eleven, so like well after
the incident, and while while he's incarcerated, while all of
the kerfuffle is beginning.
Speaker 3 (01:11:20):
Forces potus to respond, Yeah, the media pushed it, and
the bag of Badgers is a parent. Neither Pakistan nor
the US right now have come to a public agreement
on this matter. Instead, both nations found an approachable stance. Right,
we made correct with Islamic law. Right, so satisfying domestic
(01:11:43):
population of Pakistan, if not the families of those people
who were murdered. Honestly, the US individual got home safe.
The US individual, wols I should say, because let's not
forget Davis was not out there as a rogue lone wolf.
(01:12:05):
They got back. Doesn't always happen. Sorry, that's how the
sausage is made. The CIA and the ISI, they reset
their chessboard once again, and they look towards the horizon,
and the great game continues. As we wrap up tonight's episode,
(01:12:25):
we went a little long, but thank you so much
for tuning in, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
M Yeah, there's more to the stuff that we were
even able to cover, And this is a longer episode
than we usually do on a single topic. But guys,
look into this even further if you're interested in the
ins and outs and some of the details and stuff.
Just to recommend one source, you know, Ben, You've got
the you can tell everybody the book that was actually
(01:12:49):
written by Raven Davis. There's a pretty long New York
Magazine article from twenty thirteen titled How a spy helped
turn Pakistan against the United States. It's a pretty long read,
but if you can gain access to that, we highly
recommend it.
Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
We highly recommend mister Davis's words himself, the contractor, how
I landed in a Pakistani prison and ignited a diplomatic crisis,
and I don't want to lose what we set there previously. Again,
the CIA, the ISI soldier on to continue. They reset
(01:13:27):
the chessboard. They are looking toward a horizon, and the
great game never stopped. It continues tonight. You can learn more,
As Matt said, you can talk to us. Well, I
know some of us are in the audience tonight. Who
might be tourists you know, might be contractors at eshays,
(01:13:50):
people who are fans of photographing museums.
Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Your name right now is favorite tourist Ben.
Speaker 3 (01:13:56):
Oh, that's a gift from some friends of the show. Uh,
speaking of You can find us online. We'd love to
hear your thoughts. You can call us on the telephone.
You can send us a good old fashioned email. Where
do people sip the social meds?
Speaker 4 (01:14:12):
Nope, you can sip to your heart's content at the
handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook with our
Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy on YouTube or
we have just so many videos for you to enjoy
on x as well fka Twitter and on Instagram and TikTok.
We are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
You can also call us at our number seven three
four eight two six two three. Oh wait, that's the
Office of Public Affairs for the Central Intelligence Agency. Don't
call that one. Call one night three three std WYTK.
When you call in, you'll get a little familiar sound
in your ear, a little music and Ben Bowlin and
(01:14:56):
he'll let you know that you've got three minutes on
a voicemail. Give yourself a cool nick and let us
know in the message. If we can use your name
and message on the air, and if you want to
write to us with your words, why not send us
an email.
Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet's unafraid. Sometimes the void
writes back. Funny, isn't it how a bunch of very
small and subtle decisions, when added together, can end up
having such enormous consequences. That's a line from Raymond alan Davis.
We'd love to hear your favorite quotations as well conspiracy
(01:15:33):
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They call me Ben. We're joined with our guest super producer,
none other than Gnomes Griffin. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know, and we hope this exploration finds
you well. If you are in your own global neck
(00:53):
of the woods, or if you consider yourself a tourist abroad,
We've got a real way for you tonight, folks, real
weird one. At least it's a real one for the
real ones out there. There we go. Yeah, that's nice, Noel.
You're a bit of a tourist right now? How dare you? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
I suppose you could say that, Yeah, I am on
a trip to New York City, But don't I don't
hang here like a tourist, or I'd like to think
so at least.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, you're a local now at this point, right, you
know where to go, how to step? You got your
supreme hat. You're looking good, you're looking.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
To I try to step right.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, So we all remember our earlier series on a
concept that mystified us unanimously, diplomatic immunity. Part of that
goes back to the idea that you might be walking
around anywhere in these United States where we often record
(01:51):
the show, and you say, I got a parking ticket.
I have to pay a parking ticket. How do how
do these swells and these posh folks never have to
pay parking tickets. We got into this concept of diplomatic community,
which became a two part series, right, like a two
(02:14):
chapter episode. How would we explain diplomatic immunity get out
of jail free card? Right?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Essentially, Well, it's a very specialized position that someone who
is working for a different country operating in your country
wherever you are, they can have they can have these
these special rules that apply to them, where all of
the rules in that country where they're operating don't necessarily
(02:43):
apply to them because they're special, and they can take
things in and out of a country as long as
they put it in the right pouch or the right bag,
or it has the right numbers on it, which is
really fun and special, and we got into it even
further when we did I think we did a third one,
(03:04):
right Ben on what do we call it?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Shadow diplomacy?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Shadow diplomacy? That sounds nice.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
That's a great setup. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and thank
you to everyone who reached out, including multiple tourism boards,
in response to our episodes on diplomatic immunity. And as
you said, Matt, shadow diplomacy, it's an ancient sort of
(03:33):
patch together series of gentlemen's agreements or traditions, and they
still play a role in the modern world. While we
were delving into this, we alluded to numerous instances where
some people will say diplomacy went wrong. So with that tonight,
(03:55):
we are exploring a specific case of a man that
may be known to sell. This guy is named Raymond
Alan Davis. So let's pause for a word from our sponsors,
and then let's introduce him. Everybody loves Raymond, except for
you know, Pakistan.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and many neighboring countries.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well right, right, right, all right, we're doing the break.
Here are the facts. Everybody loves Raymond, right except for
the countries that Matt mentioned just a second ago. Can
(04:41):
we learn a little bit more about Raymond Davis.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
We sure can so. First thing, Raymond Davis was not
born wealthy, unlike the oss Hires of the Golden Age.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
He was not an.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Elite East Coast blue blood type of fellow. Instead, he
grew up in big Stone Gap, Virginia, which, in his words,
was a blink and you miss it type town. Perhaps
could be considered by some like a flyover country type situation,
not in the Midwest, but still similar concept. Coal country
is what you might call it, isolated in the mountains
(05:15):
and to a large degree, very much hidden away from
the rest of the world, both geographically and politically, and.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Just really as an idea of a place that exists.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, and as we said, his family was not wealthy.
They were getting by. If you look in certain places,
you'll see that his father was a coal miner. You
also read about a stint as a bricklayer, also about
all of the jobs that his mother took on to
support the family when his father got injured, and just
(05:49):
you know, the struggles of trying to make enough money
to sustain what she got, not trying to reach for
anything huge and big out in the distance. Right. The
accumulation of wealth or something. It's let's get by.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, yeah, And these are fantastic points to bring up
in the biography. So to be clear, this is not
a situation wherein Old Wild Bill Donovan drops by you know,
Princeton or Harvard or something and says, who wants to
have an adventure over there? You know, with World War two.
(06:26):
This is a kid, He's very much a child at
this point who has a rough start. As we're saying,
he is, by the way, an award winning bricklayer. He
won a competition on that front, and he's as a teen,
he's shoveling snow, he's chopping wood, all to make sure
(06:50):
that his family can stay aflat. He has two siblings,
a mother and a father, so there are a lot
of people to support, and like so many other kids
in rural Appalachia, he wants to see the wider world.
And the best chance he has to pursue this dream
is the Armed Forces. So originally Raymond wants to join
(07:16):
up with the Marines. Noel can give us an urah
urrah if you will perfect we did.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Let's also remember that he's a big dude and he
Raymond plays football, he does wrestling, and he ex sells
at both of those things where he's an imposing force physically.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
The Armed Forces recruiters are not liking him for the Marines.
As he says in his later biography, The Or Autobiography,
the recruiters get this. They wanted toll skinny kids to
be Marines, and he was. This is a quote built
(07:59):
like a tree stump. So he is the opposite of
what the recruiters have in mind. And initially they tell him, Okay,
we're not gonna say no to any kid who wants
to join up with the war machine. You are going
to be what we call a sixty eight whiskey a medic. Ultimately,
(08:21):
I mean that's a field medic. He didn't know that
at the time. Ultimately he refuses that and he becomes
what we call an eleven mic that's an infantry man
in the US Army. So he gets shipped off to
Fort Benning, Georgia, first time he's ever been on a plane.
Georgia furthest farthest he's ever been from home. He's eighteen
(08:46):
years old. At this point. The world is ahead of him.
The horizon beckons fast forward. Stationed in Fort Lewis, he's
serving out the last of his four year commit to
the army, and then he has this life changing experience.
(09:06):
Some Special Forces trainers go to hangout and they have
all the ammo, they have all the cool toys, and
they have kind of a field trip and they say,
you know what, let's teach you how to shoot these guns. Right,
Let's teach you, you know, just a cool couple of moves.
(09:27):
And immediately this galvanizes him. It inspires him, and he thinks,
maybe I can one day become part of Special Forces.
It's a very difficult training regiment. The selection process is
(09:50):
such that there's a high rate of attrition. A lot
of folks don't make it. But lo and behold, Raymond
Davis cuts the mustard and eventually becomes what we would
call an eighteen bravo, a weapons sergeant. I don't know
if we can express just how brutal this training can be.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Oh yeah, this is intense stuff, for sure. I want
to bring something up that occurred to him right before
he signs up with Special Forces, which is interesting to
me and feels like another one of these moments that occurs.
He ends up spending a little bit of time right
before signing up with Special Forces in Macedonia, which is
(10:33):
it's a country just north of Greece out there, Bulgaria,
Serbia right around there in that area. And he's serving
as a UN peacekeeper out there. Yes, which to me
is the type of job that he's going to end
up in eventually. Not exactly the same kind, but has
a lot of similarities.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
I think, right, yes, I agree with that. I see that.
As you know, he's an international man by various points
of Macedonia is a fascinating country. It may be an
episode in the future. I love that you're pointing that out.
(11:15):
This experience running into some of the g Watt guys,
George Watson Special Forces guys out there in Macedonia.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Is that what g Watt means.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I take it to mean that it's it's based on
I mean, it's lightly based on the career of the
legend George Watson. So, as we were saying, Matt, this
guy comes back and he is incredibly impressed with the
caliber of character he meets in the Special Forces trainers
(11:53):
right in this kind of field day exercise, and he
signs up. There's a tremendously high rate of attrition. Everyone,
by the way, forget everything you heard about like Apocalypse
Now or the other war propaganda films. Everyone who applies
for special forces, if they make that initial application and
(12:18):
they fail the first time, they can apply more than
what the thing is most people, if they can't get
that mustard the first time, then they go back home.
They don't want to do it.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
Can't cut it right, can't cut that mustle.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Right right right, just so. And one of the most
think about it like grad school. One of the most
brutal aspects of this training is something called sahreve.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Heard about this recently in the TV series Lioness. They
depict it pretty brutally. It is essentially putting individuals through
the same kind of interrogation, torture, and absolutely brutal hazing
type rituals as maybe would be done to prisoners of
(13:10):
war or captured combatants.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Correct, yeah, yeah, could you give us the full pronunciation.
What is sarah an acronym.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
For it is survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. People can
literally die throughout the course of this training because of
its incredible brutality, and it includes some you know, real
Sophie's choice Kobayashi maru type situations, unwinnable situations, forcing an
individual to think on their feet and make some highly
(13:44):
risky choices in mega mega clutch situations. These are accurate
simulations of real world events where people are required to
or training trainees are required to live off the land
attempting to evade very very implacable and brutal forces that
are on their tail, and you will be captured, and
you will, to what I was saying earlier, end up
(14:05):
experiencing something very much like what happens to actual prisoners
of war.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The concept of all of this is to almost give
somebody who's going through it the muscle memory of knowing
what it's like to be either left behind when you're
on a mission, or I think it is that, right,
Like you're out there on your own, so something happens.
Now it's just you and the land and there's enemies
(14:31):
all around you, right Like it's something that psychologically they're
trying to put, they're trying to instill psychologically for every
one of these people, these specialists that they're going to
end up sending out there as teams in case one
of them is lost.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Right, we love a familiar situation, right, We do not
enjoy novelty rights. That's part of it, and the reason
I wanted us to refer to cope Yashi Maru for
any Star Trek fan is the that is a climactic
part of this sci fi training, the unwinnable situation as
(15:14):
we know spoiler for a very old sci fi series.
Captain James T. Kirk is the only guy who beats
the Kobyashi Maru test originally because he changes the rules
of the game. He moves the constraints, and that's also
(15:34):
part of sare training. It's it's weird, right, It's it's
a strange thing to picture in any job, but it
is a job and it does mimic to high fidelity uh,
the experience of when things go wrong to your point
(15:55):
matt muscle memory familiarity. So during this training, Raymond suffers
some pretty heavy damage to his right lung specifically, it's
nineteen ninety eight at this point, but the full consequences
of his injury don't come to bear until two thousand
(16:18):
and one, when that lung pretty much clocks out and
stops working. He has a significant other. At this point,
they relocate to Lexington, Kentucky. He goes to Eastern Kentucky University.
There are a couple of asset protection classes or courses
(16:40):
that he's very interested in. But he's not a classroom guy.
He doesn't want to be stuck in the stuck at
a desk, right, He wants to be outside his own words,
So he rigorously trains himself back to health. And at
every step of this band's origin story, we see a
(17:03):
guy fighting against the odds and succeeding at pursuits the
ordinary person may well find impossible.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Absolutely, And then, like everybody else you know, who joins
the military, you either continue your contract. You know, if
you're in for a certain amount of time, you either
continue it on or you're done and you leave. So
he ends up leaving I think this is in three,
two thousand and three, and he does what a lot
(17:35):
of folks were doing in the early two thousands who
were either leaving the military or who had been out
of the military for quite a while. They join up
with a very lucrative group, a specific group we've talked
about many a time on this show known as Blackwater,
(17:55):
and these are military contractors that are operating in all
kinds of different places in the Middle East in the
early two thousands.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, in Mina, right, Middle East, North Africa, a couple
of other couple other of fun excursions. They got a
Dave and Busters everywhere.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
It is.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
This is familiar to a lot of us in the
audience tonight. Let's dispel some myths. From Raymond's own words,
he argues, a contractor is not the same thing as
a merk or a sorry mercenary or a soldier of fortune.
In his experience, every contractor PMC private military contractor that
(18:40):
he's met is working for you know, your academia, your
ex your Blackwater, your brown root or whatever. But they
have all retained the ideological motivation of the United States
global game.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's like Wagner right.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Just so, and that's sear training. I mean a lot
of that is.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
I mean you can't really deny that it is indoctrination
as well. I mean that level of you know, intense
hazing and brutal treatment kind of that's maybe meant to
make this stuff acceptable in some way and also perhaps
offer a helping hand at the end of it to
get you out of it in some way, shape or form.
(19:26):
There is some psychological indoctrination going on there, wouldn't you say?
That would be really hard to shake in one's lifetime.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I would say so, I would agree ISI does something similar.
Most modern nation states have some version of that shake
and bake, right, and some non state actors do the same.
To be quite clear, for Raymond's perspective, every contractor he
(19:55):
has met functioning under the letters of mar of the
United States, they had a previous military career and they
are working to further that ideology, right, They're not, in
his opinion, there are not merks who say, screw the US,
(20:19):
give me ten thousand dollars a bitcoin and let's figure
out this West African country together. That does happen. But
those guys are not the guys he's talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Sure, but we're also taking the perspective of a man
who's been through the stuff we're about to talk about, right,
who has kind of been forced to play the role
of pawn in large political schemes and diplomatic things. So,
you know, it's just it's tough to know exactly what
(20:55):
that's like and what you would actually put in a
book when you write a book about your past life
and everything that's occurred and all of that.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Stuff, especially if they especially if you have a certain
set of editors.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Oh yeah, and a co writer. Was that dude's name Storm's.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Reback, Yes, yeah, different from Stormy Daniels.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, different from Stormy Daniels. Correct interesting character on other
books that he's co written, like officially, you know. And
as we know, anybody who's got co writing credits like
on Amazon has probably written way more books. Just their
name didn't end up on there.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Somebody else's did, right, right, Yeah, we've we've been through
the fire on that one together. H The idea is
that every contractor Raymond meets per his own government approved
autobiography or memoir, they all want to function for the
(21:58):
best interest of the United States, to quote, support and
defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies
foreign and domestic. That is such a banger line. I
don't know about you, guys, It never gets old for me.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Have you ever thought about unpacking it? I mean, like,
does it seem specific enough to you or is there
some kind of broad brush type language there?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Oh, it's totally broad brush. You nailed it, you know
what I mean? Especially the folks who wrote this were
clearly imperfect, and they were clearly and purposely vague. Right,
is what is foreign in the seventeen hundreds. What is
(22:43):
foreign now? What is domestic in the seventeen hundreds is
now right, right, right right? What is the defense?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, we learned what some of those things mean with
the remember those rock war tapes and some of the
things that came out via wiki leaks right around that
same time. Correct, specifically with blackwater contractors and the killing
of civilians. Kind of it's it's scary stuff. And we're
certainly not saying Raymond was a part of any of
that specific thing. It's just there. There's a complexity to
(23:15):
a military contractor.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Sure, yeah, and we also call it the Department of Defense, yes,
ten no notes. This idea of contracting is, by the way,
not an original pursuit. Contractors civilians assisting war efforts, which
(23:39):
would be the technical definition. They're present in the DNA
of the United States all the way back to the
days of the Revolutionary War. Very tall, very unhinged ginger
named George Washington was hiring folks I, you know, to
(24:01):
mainly to persecute for his cause. Civilians have always assisted.
Raymond's career is a reflection of that. It took him
around the world, especially in the wake of September eleventh,
we mentioned his time in Macedonia. We should also mention
(24:22):
his experience in Afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Ben I couldn't find much on his actual time as
a contractor for Blackwater in Afghanistan between three and six.
What did you find out there?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Oh, he's just having a grand ole time, you know, learning.
So you should see Matt's face, folks, learning some surveillance,
some infiltrations, some best practices, primarily in Afghanistan. At that point,
(24:56):
we're talking about protectingtecting arms of US interest, right, So
that could be individuals, that could be high value infrastructure
that could be believe it.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
There, giant palettes of billions of dollars in cash that
accidentally fell off a giant plane.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Counts as infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Okay, so it's really interesting. We don't know a ton
of actual detail outside of what stated in the book there,
but we do know. In two thousand and six, Raymond
leaves Blackwater, he leaves the Middle East, he comes back
to the United States, goes to Las Vegas. Yeah, you know,
(25:43):
his roots are in Virginia. His roots are you know, elsewhere,
maybe in Georgia after spending so much time there, But
he goes to Las Vegas and starts a private like
I don't know, what would you call it, almost a
he starts a private contracting service as like a bodyguard service,
as a know, anything you might imagine is almost private.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Intelligence, security consulting.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
There you go, that's a good way to put it.
We've met a few folks who are security consultants, who
really ex military, who just offer those services to anybody
who has the budget who needs some security, usually for
moving a high value person, just like he was doing
in Afghanistan, or high value assets, moving those things around.
(26:27):
He's the kind of guy that would do things like
check the surroundings of a meeting place right or where
a meeting is gonna be held. It reminds me a
lot of that character. I always forget his.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Name, Homer Simpson.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
That's the one specifically, Homer Simpson backing away into the bush.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
No, it's the character from Breaking Bad and Better call
Saul whose dogs like yeah, yes.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
It reminds me of a man true consult material, taking
his you know, police training and then just you know,
giving him a leg up in the world of crime.
So I think that's an interesting parallel that you point out.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
Matt.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
You can always tell those guys h new offense. Some
of us are listening tonight. We could always tell dudes,
it's not that you're mean or presenting something aggressive. It's
the fact that you always please beat me here. It's
the fact that you always look so tired whenever something happens,
(27:34):
and you're like, so, there's probably a tracer. It's probably
in the gas cap.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Remember the episode where he took the car apart entirely
and then couldn't find it and then finally found it.
Like it wasn't the yes, thank you, It was in
the gas cap spoilers, but it took him a minute
to find it, but he worked his butt off to
get there.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
If you can eat a gun, I'll just take one
of yours.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Take one of your yes, exactly the kind of guys
who are who will have someone tied to a chair
and roll their eyes and be like, ah, my niece
is real irritating, and when I have to do this today, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Y Well, the folks at the CIA.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Oh sure, yeah, take a little took a.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Little liking to whatever Raymond was doing, either during his
service or while he was out there in Las Vegas.
And wasn't it right after this that he officially gets
his green badge.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Predictable, consistent delivers we like those.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, then, that just means that he's officially a contractor
for the CIA, where he can go in and out
of Langley with a special little green badge that's given
out to these folks.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yes, that is a real thing. And with that brief background,
let's travel to Pakistan. We've given you the quick skinny
on an accomplished successful man. It's January twenty seventh, twenty eleven, right,
so about a decade after the events of September eleventh,
(29:16):
two thousand and one. January twenty seventh at this time
is going to be the day that changes everything and
puts the world very close to disaster. What do we mean.
We're going to pause for a word from our sponsors
and then we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy,
(29:41):
all right, Laharre Pakistan cosmopolitan place, metropolis, right, it's long
been considered the cultural capital of that country, just like
New York City. It's very crowded, just like Tokyo. It's
very crowded. It's also dangerous. As Noel said earlier, you
(30:06):
got a step right, so onto stage walks our guy Raymond.
He's about thirty seven years old at this point.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Right, and he's a CIA contractor at this point, working
with a team to safeguard US functionaries from the State
Department and us AID USAID. They're in Pakistan and surrounding countries,
most specifically and notably Afghanistan, and this is really really
important work. In most cases, these guys are for all
(30:35):
intents and purposes, ghosts. They're invisible attaches, perhaps some it
you know, consultants on board, attached to your local consulate
or embassy.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
And they're not.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
You know, typical soldier jarhead types out there knocking people
around in Okinawa or soul Korea. Instead, they are much
more like herding cats, you know, acting as a shepherd.
Functionaries kind of continually assessing the environment around them, observing,
(31:12):
making notes, familiarizing themselves with the region and the peculiarities
of the regions, specific details and customs around neighborhoods, or
assessments around a particular mission, in the hopes that the
people that they are safeguarding will listen to their advice.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
This is always a bit of a dice roll there.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Well, and let's just put this out here to state
it plainly. This type of role is not outwardly projecting
Hey I'm a CIA contractor Hey I am working with
the CIA. It's more like I'm gonna put my badge
underneath my shirt or whatever it is that I'm wearing,
so nobody knows who I am or what I'm doing.
(31:54):
But if I get stopped, I can pull it out
and say, hey, I'm with the Consolate or something like that.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Right. You can always tag base, yes, but.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
They are unassuming. If you encountered them, somebody like Raymond
in the wild, you would have no idea what his
job is and what he's doing.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
I'm just the driver. You get what I'll mean.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Well, and you could say that, right and maybe get
away with whatever you're doing.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
And I don't think so with that accent. No, I
don't think that accent will work.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
In karaate or something.
Speaker 6 (32:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But but I guess my whole point
is he looks like a civilian essentially walking around from
a different country.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And he's not driving a fancy car. He doesn't have
a suit from the high street. He's probably rocking the
kind of flad or flannel that you would see so
common in the Pacific Northwest or in Austin, Texas.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
And you can see pictures of his outfit very much
much can you can see pictures of his little Honda
Civic as well.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
It's a white Honda Civic, you know, good cars. This
episode is brought to you, uh within in part with
great disagreement from Uncle Sah. This is brought to you
by white Honda Civics in Pakistan. So look, this is
a tremendously frustrating gig. You were out there telling very
(33:28):
important people, right, very ideologically motivated people at times to
keep their own heads on a swivel. You thought the
bellagio was Harry, which it is right around two thirty
three am local time. This is a different world, right,
This is a world where someone may be bringing aid, right,
(33:53):
maybe attempting to provide medical care, and then they get popped. Right.
You have to understand there is a very small margin
of error, and people who are used to being treated
as though they are important often lose their faculties for surveillance. Right,
(34:17):
that that is just part of the gig. So a
lot of folks don't listen to Raymond, right, and he
and his team do it their best.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Absolutely, A couple of context pieces here we mentioned that
he is functioning essentially for the State Department and USAID,
the thing that just got almost completely fully shut down
here in the United States. USAID is the arm that
was What do we say, guys, we say it the
(34:48):
way they say it. They're providing aid to other countries.
And what does that mean money? It means money so
that certain functions can occur either within the government or
for support structures of a government. And USAID as a
part of the State Department slash US government, we provide
money to countries for things like stability, right to make
(35:13):
sure whatever governing party is in charge does some of
the things kind of the way we would like them
to do just a little bit, just enough, right, it's
a nudge. But that money that's coming in from USAID
is highly important, especially at this time to countries like Pakistan,
specifically to Pakistan.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Did you ever hear the old shipoleth that we we
used to go too often resources and inspiration? Oh god, yeah,
I don't know this one. Then tell me it's it's
where you it's like a shekel off, Yeah, let's shove
(35:54):
it off. No, it's a word or a saying. It's
a thought terminating cliche. That's okay, Like.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Like an anti aphorism, you could you could always resort
to one.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Uh. Look, people are resorting to these ideological laches or
to these clear and present from Raymond's perspective, to these
clear and present threats. So this guy is driving around
just like uh, he's done several days prior, just like
(36:33):
his team has done as well. And he spends he
spends a good deal of time in in his uh
autobiography talking about this Honda Civic and gnomes. We know
you love when we bring up the hondas.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
Uh, you're a guy, made no secret.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
About that, Ben, Yeah, out of respect to you.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Out of respect to you, Ben.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
No odyssees will be in my garage.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
There's one bad one. There's one bad Honda.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Just the honesty that my sister drives. But we did
have a whole conversation about Honda fits.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
No. Yeah, I love a fit.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
Yeah, I'm a fit man for love of you.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Man. All right, So you're welcome, buckeroos. So everybody please
do avoid Honda odyssees. If you take nothing else away
from this parable The headline is this Raymond is is
learning roots, right, evaluating the streets. So this is not
(37:38):
like driving a black cab in London. You can't just
know the fastest point from A to Z. You have
to know how that point or how that passage works
at any given time. Right. And so they're running the
roots right, and like you said, Matt, they're making it
(37:59):
muscle memory. And the headline is this both the nation
of Pakistan and the nation of the United States agree.
On January twenty seventh, twenty eleven, our guy Raymond is
in traffic. A motorbike stops in front of him. There
(38:19):
are two Pakistani nationals on that motorbike. One of them
per Raymond raises a firearm, which he says indicates clear intent.
And he's saying, like, there's one guy driving facing away
from him. The guy on the back is turning around.
He's got that little telltale bulge and he produces a firearm.
(38:44):
He raises it toward Raymond through the windshield of that
Honda Civic. Go time. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
Raymond reacts as per his training and shoots the men,
who are later identified as Faison Hider and Fai Sham
Shot also sometimes referred to as Mohammed Fahim, Fahim was
twenty six Hyer twenty two. Raymond shot five rounds from
his service weapon through the windshield of his Honda. Additional
(39:14):
reports claimed that he got out of the vehicle and
unloaded four more rounds into the men as they lay
on the pavement mortally wounded.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
My understanding is that he those initial shots through the
windshield right the person had the gun, and then he
got out of his vehicle and shot at the second person,
who was high driver right ain' away.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah. Yeah, and they when these two young men in
their twenties were already incapacitated. Pakistani news sources say that
he followed up, you know, and he double tapped essentially.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Well yeah, okay, So if we're putting Raymond in that situation,
in that moment when you see a gun aimed at
you and you're you're performing those capabilities on the behalf
of an intelligence agency slash, you know, USAID, slash the
State Department, you may imagine that those men are there
to kill you, and that is their only purpose. That
(40:16):
is why they're on that specific vehicle that can be
a speedy getaway, and that's why they're they're so mobile,
right with a firearm like that if you're in that
position and you have that training, I imagine that is
the reaction that you have take out the threat.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
The details though, as this goes on about what those
young men were actually doing and had been doing like
for most of that day and for several days, it's
a it's it makes it more complex, but it doesn't
make in my mind, it's weird. It doesn't make Raymond's
actions necessarily wrong, except for the continual shooting after the
(40:57):
threat is disabled.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Makes you wonder whether some sort of familiarity existed. Right. Look,
that's a great point because at this instance, the public
knowledge in Pakistan and the US, it begins to diverge, right,
and these two countries are agreed that these kids are dead,
(41:27):
these twenty somethings are dead or Raymond Alan Davis definitely
takes photograph and video evidence of the scene, and while
he's doing this, he is radioing the rest of the
team for backup. They have, in my opinion, a slightly
better car, sorry to say it, it's a Toyota land Cruiser,
(41:50):
and these guys go cinematic with it. They are attempting
to reach the scene immediately, and they're coming from a
private residence on Scotch Corner. Again, Pakistan and US media
disagree about what the GPS evidence presents, which we'll get to.
This land cruiser is super interesting if you're a traffic
(42:14):
cop in Pakistan, or what they would call a traffic warden,
just someone who asked to as you said, Noel, heard
the cats of motorbikes and vehicles, because this land Cruiser
is rock and fake ID. It has false ID registration
plates and despite you know, that's fine out in their
(42:39):
rural verbs right out when you're trying to get past
the checkpoint or whatever, people might not radio that in.
But false plates are not going to help you in traffic,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, especially if you're going the wrong way on a
one way street, right.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Right, Yeah, So quickly, this land Cruiser of invisible men
becomes cartoonishly visible. They swerve over a grassy median and
they blast through oncoming traffic. Picture literally every traffic scene
you've witnessed in a blockbuster Hollywood film. They're doing that
(43:22):
right now.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
And let's remember, a land cruiser is a giant suv. Like,
it's a big ass suv.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
It's a chonky boy for sure, right, and we're in
a land of motorbikes and honestly smaller, more economic vehicles.
So this whale is swimming against the tide around these
panicked dolphins, right and these workday salmon. If we're gonna
(43:49):
spin that weird fish analogy out see analogy out. Anyway,
maritime stuff aside, This is not the movies. This is
real life. That land cruiser which did have an excellent driver,
it hits an innocent bystander by both countries' reports. It's
(44:11):
a guy named Abador Ramen. He is on a motorbike.
And we have to remember that all those crazy chases
you see in film are not like what happens in
real life. In real life, people do.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
Die absolutely collateral damage. And this is you know, takes
what could have perhaps been a more contained situation and
now makes it much more of a diplomatic crisis because
Pakistan is not happy.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yes, And while all of this is happening, there are
three men. There are two men shot, one man who's
been struck by a large suv right in this traffic,
in this chaos. One of the men who has been
shot is dead on the scene. One of the other
men who is shot is in extremely c condition but
(45:00):
still alive. And then the man who's struck by the
sub is still alive in critical condition. They are both
like being hurried to a hospital as quickly as possible.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Yeah, the closest hospital, which would be called service hospital.
Fahim and Abador survive long enough to get there, but
they both die. And at this point, the crew in
that Toyota cruiser they ghost immediately and they are racing
(45:31):
hell to pedal. Like picture a fire truck right, picture
of fire truck that does not play the siren noise.
It is racing to reach the safety of the US consulate.
And apparently they're throwing some stuff out of the window
(45:52):
on the way. They're dumping some things. Do we want
to do a list?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
It's a weird list.
Speaker 5 (45:57):
It's a very weird list.
Speaker 7 (45:59):
Some of these things fetish, I like to bit, I
like to be bow here, Dennis, Oh my goods, gracious, no,
not quite right.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
We're talking ammunition, battery.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
Cells, scissors, gloves, a mask, and a blind phoat. Okay, Ben,
you were getting a little closer to what you're talking
about here, a baton compass. So some of this is,
you know, kind of wilderness. He boy scouty stuff, and
then some of it may be a little more sketch.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
And some of the yellow American spirits. No, I'm just joking.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
I oh, I believe there was a punch card for
a local shop and you know, a huge tragedy. Eight
of the ten holes were punched, so it was like
two sandwiches.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Oh man, whats the weirdest thing, you guys is that
the folks whoever was inside this land cruiser made a
great attempt to get to where Raymond was in his
Honda Civic, and yet they just decided the GTFO without
picking up Raymond, which feels like a really strange move
(47:10):
to me. I don't understand why you would just abscond
like that after causing such a scene without picking up.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
You know what I'm assuming is your target or you're
you're genle your teammate.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah, you're objective, Yeah, yeah, we if we game it out.
What most likely would happen in that situation is that
they were responding to the possibility of firefight, right, the
possibility of other folks going on the scene, and then
(47:45):
they got the order to skidadle back. We know that Raymond,
he was not abandoned by these folks. They're all following orders.
Raymond also attempts to move the Honda Civic has a
cartoonish windshield at this point, but it's still drivable, right
because there is no bullet that hit the engine. He
(48:08):
makes it as far as old Anarcholi Food Street, and
those traffic officers, those wardens we mentioned earlier, they ask
him to stop. They stand in front of the car,
he complies, They bring him to the police. Maybe at
this point we stop for a word from our sponsors
(48:31):
and then get to the you know, a fallow Yeah,
and we're back now. No earlier you said Pakistan is pissed.
Could you tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 5 (48:47):
Well, they're certainly not pleased.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
You know, as I was saying, what could have perhaps
been a little bit more of a contained situation has
now become really messy. Potentially, Pakistan is a government that
has been put in a particular tough situation because the
Honda was found to have a handgun, a telescope something
we're referring to here ben as a shadowy GPS not
a brand there are we talking about sketchy GPS type stuff? Okay,
(49:14):
fair enough, Burner cell phones. We've got satellite phone, the
kind of things you might find in a go bag,
minus the loose diamonds. We've got multiple IDs and bank cards.
Perhaps most disturbingly, how from their perspective, is a camera
with clear photographs of some stuff that Pakistan would prefer
you not to know. We're talking images of military installations
(49:38):
along the border with India.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
And we're talking images that somebody took with this camera,
like sy had this camera and they were walking around
military installations taking photographs of stuff, of our secret stuff.
And who is this guy? Basically is the question, will
you find that stuff in the Honda? You go, who
the F is this guy?
Speaker 3 (50:03):
Oh? Oh, I'm sorry, officer, I didn't know. I couldn't
do that.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Oh well, well then you're free to go.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Oh great, all right, five stars on YELP for you, sir.
So there's a side note here that point about military installation,
surveillance and photography is key. Pakistan is a nuclear capable
country and it is very much like ex partner angry
(50:35):
at India. They hate each other. The border ceremony is
amazing and worth your time. It went viral in the
West several years back. They do not trust each other,
and both countries are kind of frenemies with the US
and it's not their fault, it's based on US actions previously.
(50:57):
These are all rational actors.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Well, and there's lots of money getting pumped into both
India and Pakistan by usaid.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
You guys like money, let's have some. Yeah, never mind
the camera, so imagine the relative you don't want to
see Thanksgiving. This is far beyond that. Do we want
to talk a little bit just for context about India
(51:26):
Pakistan relationships.
Speaker 5 (51:28):
They are not buddies, they're not buckeroos.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Well, yeah, and this is something we're seeing play out
in the news now like s here in twenty twenty five,
where it's getting escalated, these tensions, these like hand with
a finger on the trigger, just waiting, just waiting for
the other side to do.
Speaker 5 (51:49):
Something type stuff.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yes, and at this moment we also have to remember
that it's twenty eleven. It's been ten years since the
September eleventh, a little less than ten years since that attack.
There are factions within Pakistan that are very much on
that track of what George W. Bush would call, you know,
(52:17):
terror like but really like groups are who are down
with we probably should destroy America kind of vibe that
is not the governing force within Pakistan because again that
force has little strings attached with all that US money
and other stuff coming in. So there's it's almost like
(52:39):
the tensions are ready to boil over from these other
groups within the country, but it hasn't yet. So it's
a delicate balance.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
And just like the CIA historically at times in the US,
the ISI, the inter services intelligence of Pakistan is believed
to bemised in one way or another by ideological factions.
This is again not a condemnation of these various intelligence services.
(53:13):
I'm just saying, if you hang out at a barber
shop long enough, you're gonna get a haircut, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
Yeah, or a good dose of hot goss, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
For sure. And so this is a pickle. Right, the
media gets in front of this story, the West and Pakistan.
All of the stands that still have something like a press,
they are publishing about this. Right. India is dining out
(53:44):
on this. They kind of love it. And we have
to remember that both of these countries, the United States
and Pakistan, they have a deep investment in one another.
Because of what you're describing war on terror. They're practicing
Kissinger level real politic. So Pakistan in that case, in
(54:05):
a zero some game, they want any possible negotiation leverage
over their frenemies in the West. The media war begins.
Uncle Sam immediately says, Raymond from Virginia, he's a diplomat.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
Well, this is a real test of all the things
we've been talking about, isn't it. Because they bulk at
that US claims that he is classified under the Vienna
Convention and is therefore subject to certain, you know, leniencies, privileges,
let's just say, dispensations. Pakistan disagrees, and legal arguments start
getting into the mix.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Oh yeah, well, and let's not forget. When Raymond finally
gets out of his civic and he gets pulled over
by those traffic cops, they're like, who are you? And
they take him into the police and they say who
are you? And he says, I'm a consultant. I just
work as a consultant at the console a general in Lahore.
I'm a consultant. And he picks up his shirt. Remember
(55:04):
we talked about having IDs and stuff on your shirt.
He picks it up and shows them, Yeah, that's who
I am. I don't have my passport and stuff on me,
but look I've got.
Speaker 4 (55:13):
This green badge. But he does not present specific diplomatic credentials.
This is something different, right.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
He's got a card essentially like our earlier conversations on
diplomatic community. He nailed it, guys. He's got a card
that that says call this person, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
So when when the US governor says, oh, he's a diplomat, right,
You're like, oh, okay, well wait a second, I don't
know about that.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
I don't know about that the government. It's a sticky wicket.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
Cricket's very popular in Pakistan, it is, You're right. So
the question becomes is this contractor on staff or is
he a hot head in acting on his own dangerous accord.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
Right or his dangerous civic Sorry right, no joke left by?
Speaker 3 (56:08):
That was great?
Speaker 4 (56:10):
Well?
Speaker 2 (56:10):
Can we also just state authorities are also trying to
figure out who those young men were on the motorcycle
because nobody knows, right, like, what were they doing there,
Why were they there? What was their purpose that they
were there to take him out?
Speaker 5 (56:22):
It would seem that they were there to assassinate this.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Man private eye of watching you.
Speaker 4 (56:28):
I mean, did they not pull up to him on
a motorcycle and draw down on him?
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (56:34):
Okay, that just seems like what it seems to me now, you're.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
Right, beautiful. But the official story is that these young
men were on basically a crime spree, of some sort
of low level crime spree where they're committing robberies, right,
and they just happened to pull in front of this Contractor's.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
Really really see a white guy, Wyhanta civic.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
I guess that's true.
Speaker 4 (57:05):
Maybe nobody's put it pointing the finger at something greater
than that.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
It's all about plausible deniability, right, like every layer of this.
Speaker 3 (57:15):
Yeah, it's true. So Raymond and Uncle Sam, the Department
of State, This, by the way, goes all the way
to the potus. They argue, this guy acted in self defense.
As as as we're saying there was a street level
crime spree, it could have been anyone behind that motorbike.
(57:37):
This guy happened to have the education and muscle memory
to respond to a threat. Pakistan's authorities disagree and they
say no, actually no, sorry, Uncle Sam, this is one
of your guys, and this American murdered two innocent twenty
(57:59):
year olds in traffic and then he escalated that incident.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Yep. Let's also gosh, there's so much context to this,
this thing that happens, right, That's why it's considered one
of those special moments that had ripples like that were
far reaching and that you can still feel them today.
Just before this, I don't know if it was years
before this or months before this, the United States sent
(58:26):
drone strikes to several areas of Pakistan. So within the
country there's already this resentment against the United States for
using these machines to come out and do targeted killings
or targeted strikes or what. I forget the words that
were used by the Obama administration back in the day,
but they were taking out specific targets with drones in
(58:48):
Pakistan around this time. So it is this whole thing
is almost seen as symbolic, right, especially for the high
level players.
Speaker 3 (58:57):
Right right, and this is in the mill u when
Pakistan and the US or trying to publicly play nice,
there's a lot on the line. I mean, I think
it was Pervez musha Ref was on the Daily Show
around this time. Do you guys remember him, President of
(59:20):
Pakistan Sorrry.
Speaker 5 (59:21):
Yes, yes, of course I do.
Speaker 3 (59:23):
Yeah, Yeah, it's an interview that's worth your time. So Raymond,
Raymond gets jammed up two charges of homicide, and the
evidence is there he did shoot these kits for sure.
Speaker 4 (59:38):
I mean, he's becoming kind of the sacrificial lamb in
this diplomatic hubbub. The US, however, does pressure Pakistan to
free him, though Pakistan initially bucks and in later conversations
were the kind that you might have at one of
those out of the way cafes that we described ben
where we're exchanging the face down you know, the cocktail,
napkins or whatever. In that scenari I am from our
(01:00:00):
first series on diplomatic community, Pakistan and the US do
hatch a deal. It was agreed usually that these two
kids on bikes were ISI agents. In the official US
story of an attempted robbery would prove completely or at
least largely false, but potentially worthy of holding some water.
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
There was a lot of back and forth. There are
high level attorneys hanging out in Pakistan on the part
of the US, attempting to negotiate to get this guy
out of the country before charges are laid at his feet.
Before they're you know, officially going to trial for any
of this stuff, before the s hits the f or
(01:00:42):
however that works, and.
Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
How does that work? Bett, Have you ever defecated on
a fan?
Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Well, look, in certain situations that I can think of
in the past, there would be a problem if there
was a fan, like in the vicinity. Maybe. Well, guys,
it really depends on what your diet looks like in
certain you know, bacteria, it's way, yeah, anyway, it's it's
(01:01:17):
going really bad. But that there's this other thing that
gets floated after the prosecutor gets switched out, which is
an interesting thing that occurs, and it's you can look
at various news sources, including the New York Times to
see like the strange ways that on the Pakistan side,
the folks who are going to prosecute this person got
(01:01:38):
switched out and all of a sudden, this new concept arises.
Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Well, it's an old concept. We have to recognize that
every sovereign nation is entitled to its own judicial system. Pakistan,
being Islamic country, functions largely under Islamic law, which is
we see and an ancient concept that is considered legal
(01:02:07):
in this part of the world. Come into play. That
concept is the the closest translation in the West would
be something like blood price compensation for the people that
you have killed. And this is not unique to Pakistan.
It's not unique to Islam. It may sound strange to
people from the United States, but just because you're from
(01:02:31):
the US doesn't mean you know you know everything. Well.
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Yeah, And just to clarify when I say a new concept,
what I mean is it wasn't being talked about as
an even possibility for this specific case with an American
who has killed two people in Pakistan who were Pakistani.
Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
It's it's introduced.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yes, it gets introduced as the prosecutors switch out.
Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
So the United States pays something around two point four
million USD under Islamic law, they pay this blood price.
And so it comes to pass that on March sixteenth,
twenty eleven, Pakistan's judicial system acquits Raymond Allen Davis of
(01:03:19):
every charge of any charges. And they were really gonna
jam this guy up for multiple things like even uto
traffic violations like you're driving a car with a broken windshield,
screw you man, like all of this stuff. They wanted
to put him under the jail. But this price comes
(01:03:39):
in he catches the next plane out of the country secretly.
Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Yeah, well as does as do well. Yeah, and he
has to Afghanistan by the way to get to the US.
But the families that receive the blood money, the three
different families, they are all secreted away as well.
Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Yes, and Pakistan Pakistani politicians lose their careers over this.
Multiple Some people are saying, no, this is stinky, you know,
this is s hits the f and I don't like it,
and I don't like what it says about geopolitics. Boom,
(01:04:23):
they get sacked. Other people say, eh, yeah, you know
this is good. You gotta make it work. They get sacked.
Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
This is a absolute crisis for diplomacy Monty Python levels
of sackings taking place.
Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Yeah, sacks all the way down. Man, it's sacking fifth Avenue.
Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Then, No, exactly, And like you said, Ben, at this point,
I mean, it's so stinky and sacky that the president
himself actually is forced to respond.
Speaker 5 (01:04:52):
There's no way around it.
Speaker 4 (01:04:53):
This is potentially blowing up into an outright diplomatic crisis.
Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Yep, solutely. Let's also remember that this is now in
February of twenty eleven. All of this is going down
where even the United States President is getting involved.
Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Right, So February is when it goes up to Potus
and Congress. Right March is when Raymond Allen Davis becomes
free and has to escape. But look for anybody in
the audience, and I'm sure there are a few of
us and have adventures. Be safe. You know well that
(01:05:36):
any time the president has to go in public and
say some stuff to respond, like to respond to an incident,
you're in trouble. You know what I mean. It's like
being a second grader and you hear the announcements at
school and the principal gets on the mic and says, also,
(01:06:00):
I want to have a quick word about Noel Brown
or Dak Frederick right to the office, right right, right.
There were some incidents at the neighboring high school, at
the neighboring elementary schools. It's just a bad look all around.
And we the public will never know what got discussed
(01:06:21):
in those back rooms.
Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
No, no, we will not. We won't know the full
story because it was really fishy, something weird was going on.
What happened two months later? Anybody remember what happened two
months later?
Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Bottabad no comment? Uh, the world's most wanted man was
assassinated in a compound where there were stealth helicopters used.
Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
No comment.
Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Where the CIA had been operating for Oh, I don't know,
months and months and months trying to track down Osama
bin laden via vaccinations.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
No comment. M Oh my gosh, that sounded sketchy. Yeah, right, fine, No,
you're right, Matt, as as usual, you are absolutely correct.
There are always a larger pieces at play. Yeah, and
you're right. What we can say is that Raymond Davis
is not some kind of super villain. He's not some doctor. No,
(01:07:24):
he's not some kind of James Bond. By his own account,
he will deny you know, this double O seven appellation,
that Appalachian appellation that people put on him. He's a
kid from Wise County, Virginia. In his perspective, he's serving
his country. He never never imagined that he might be
(01:07:48):
the individual triggering such extreme events. But to know your
earlier point about powder kegs right and boiling water, it's
fair to ask if something like this would have happened
inevitably right, Because the entire time this is happening, factions
of an ISI know exactly where obl is it's just irrefutable.
Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Yep. It was a delicate little game that was being played.
Like everybody knows that, like to some extent, all sides
know that there are Americans operating beneath the consulate or
for the consulate or for the embassy who are inside
the country searching for this person, and they have been
(01:08:36):
for almost ten years.
Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
And like check his watch.
Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
I'm just saying it. It's known. Everybody is just aware
that this is happening, right, because it's it's if you
thought it wasn't happening, you know, you're being naive on
those levels.
Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
We're here for the museums, you know what I mean.
We're big fans of architecture and we like to see
out of the way architecture. I'm sorry, officer, I did
not know.
Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
I could not do that well exactly. But the Americans
who are operating in Pakistan know that the intelligence services
there are keeping an eye on them. So and if
they believe, like they had around this time, that they
had located the correct compound where Osama bin Laden was hiding,
you have to that side is pretending like they don't know, right,
(01:09:28):
and then the other side is trying to figure out
what each other knows. It's just it gets so complicated.
Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
It's a weird, toxic relationship often with these countries, allies
and enemies alike. To this very evening, we're gonna hear
multiple differing accounts of what is called the Raymond Allen
Davis incident in the West to our friends in Pakistan
and points abroad. It's a harrowing parable about how no
(01:09:58):
country should or trust the United States. This country, the
US has a terrible reputation right now for sort of
moving with the wind and the whims, which people don't like.
I get it. You would you know, you crack a
deal with one person who is supposedly in charge of
(01:10:22):
the country. Four years later there's another person and they say, ah,
forget that other guy. Here's my weird thing. How do
you feel about how the civics And then you have
to be like, I guess this is cool for four years.
But to the United States, this is a moral play.
This is the argument that if you send someone in,
(01:10:44):
you may damn sure you get them back, and ideally
you keep that invisible. This is a case where the
conspiracy was revealed.
Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Yeah it was. I didn't realize you guys that the
Guardian newspaper is the out that officially stated out loud
that Raymond Davis was employed by the CIA.
Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Right, Yeah, they were first to the post on it.
Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
That was February twentieth, twenty eleven, so like well after
the incident, and while while he's incarcerated, while all of
the kerfuffle is beginning.
Speaker 3 (01:11:20):
Forces potus to respond, Yeah, the media pushed it, and
the bag of Badgers is a parent. Neither Pakistan nor
the US right now have come to a public agreement
on this matter. Instead, both nations found an approachable stance. Right,
we made correct with Islamic law. Right, so satisfying domestic
(01:11:43):
population of Pakistan, if not the families of those people
who were murdered. Honestly, the US individual got home safe.
The US individual, wols I should say, because let's not
forget Davis was not out there as a rogue lone wolf.
(01:12:05):
They got back. Doesn't always happen. Sorry, that's how the
sausage is made. The CIA and the ISI, they reset
their chessboard once again, and they look towards the horizon,
and the great game continues. As we wrap up tonight's episode,
(01:12:25):
we went a little long, but thank you so much
for tuning in, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
M Yeah, there's more to the stuff that we were
even able to cover, And this is a longer episode
than we usually do on a single topic. But guys,
look into this even further if you're interested in the
ins and outs and some of the details and stuff.
Just to recommend one source, you know, Ben, You've got
the you can tell everybody the book that was actually
(01:12:49):
written by Raven Davis. There's a pretty long New York
Magazine article from twenty thirteen titled How a spy helped
turn Pakistan against the United States. It's a pretty long read,
but if you can gain access to that, we highly
recommend it.
Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
We highly recommend mister Davis's words himself, the contractor, how
I landed in a Pakistani prison and ignited a diplomatic crisis,
and I don't want to lose what we set there previously. Again,
the CIA, the ISI soldier on to continue. They reset
(01:13:27):
the chessboard. They are looking toward a horizon, and the
great game never stopped. It continues tonight. You can learn more,
As Matt said, you can talk to us. Well, I
know some of us are in the audience tonight. Who
might be tourists you know, might be contractors at eshays,
(01:13:50):
people who are fans of photographing museums.
Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Your name right now is favorite tourist Ben.
Speaker 3 (01:13:56):
Oh, that's a gift from some friends of the show. Uh,
speaking of You can find us online. We'd love to
hear your thoughts. You can call us on the telephone.
You can send us a good old fashioned email. Where
do people sip the social meds?
Speaker 4 (01:14:12):
Nope, you can sip to your heart's content at the
handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook with our
Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy on YouTube or
we have just so many videos for you to enjoy
on x as well fka Twitter and on Instagram and TikTok.
We are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
You can also call us at our number seven three
four eight two six two three. Oh wait, that's the
Office of Public Affairs for the Central Intelligence Agency. Don't
call that one. Call one night three three std WYTK.
When you call in, you'll get a little familiar sound
in your ear, a little music and Ben Bowlin and
(01:14:56):
he'll let you know that you've got three minutes on
a voicemail. Give yourself a cool nick and let us
know in the message. If we can use your name
and message on the air, and if you want to
write to us with your words, why not send us
an email.
Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet's unafraid. Sometimes the void
writes back. Funny, isn't it how a bunch of very
small and subtle decisions, when added together, can end up
having such enormous consequences. That's a line from Raymond alan Davis.
We'd love to hear your favorite quotations as well conspiracy
(01:15:33):
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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