September 19, 2018 • 35 mins
Pyramids aren't just for Egypt! Join Ben and Matt as they dive into the strange story of a hidden pyramid in China, an ancient lost civilization that, recently uncovered, holds disturbing secrets in the modern day.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M
(00:24):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. They
called me Ben. We are joined with our super producer,
Paul the Ace decond. Most importantly, you are you. You
are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know we're going into. I was thinking about
this off airmat We're going into a bit of a
(00:45):
pyramid scheme today, but not the not the way we
ordinarily do. Oh god, okay, yes we are. We're going
into an actual pyramid scheme where in a scheme of pyramids,
scheme about a pyramid, several schemes in fact. So in
an earlier episode, you and I explored the stories of
(01:09):
non Egyptian pyramids. Do you remember that one. Yeah, they
were all over the world, places where you probably wouldn't
expect to find pyramids. Sure, even if you are a
seasoned archaeologist. Right, It's true that while most people, at
least here in the West, associate pyramids with the Valley
of Kings in ancient Egypt. You know, the huge pyramid
(01:30):
of Giza and stuff. The world has tons of other
smaller similar structures. Yeah, you also are you associate the
pyramid with a rigid structure in a way built built
out of some sort of stone or block, where you
it's highly defined. But then you get other things like
cigarettes that you find throughout the world, especially in places
(01:51):
like Central and South America. You got mounds in North America.
You can find those all over the place. Even here
in Georgia you can find some different kinds of mounds. Um,
you can find them in Europe too. Yeah. In fact,
structures similar to pyramids have been found not just in Europe,
not just in Mesoamerica and North America, but in Indonesia, Peru, India,
(02:15):
the Roman Empire, uh Sudan, in the Kingdom of Nubia, Greece, Nigeria,
all these other places that you would not normally expect
to be home to pyramids. In fact, we could likely say,
if there's a land mass that you think does not
have pyramids on it, you're probably wrong, unless we're talking
about Antarctico, which is a different episode. We've read the mails.
(02:38):
We will get to it. I wonder if this is
not something that I have researched, and I don't know
if you have either, But pyramids on islands, I wonder
how common that is because it seems like it would
be difficult to find just the raw materials to make
a pyramid true? True? Uh? And would those be more
of the mound type thing is given the difficulties of
(03:02):
creating large works of stone, and most islands, other than
the Rapa Nui in Easter Island, that was an enormous undertaking.
They also apparently the people destroyed their economy in pursuit
of these um Such a fascinating tragic story. But it's
a good point, Matt. The glib answer to that question,
(03:26):
where the glib deflection rather is well, isn't a continent
just a large island? I don't. We don't think that flies, folks.
We think there is a size limit to what should
be termed an island. And as we're going to find out,
there are many ways to build a pyramid like structure,
and one of them is just to take the earth
that exists there and basically press it as hard as
(03:49):
you can to create a structure. And quite a few
pyramids are exactly that. They are pressed rammed earth, and
for a long time, there were tons of legends about
pyramids in one of the most mysterious parts of the world.
(04:10):
At least two early westerners that as China, this vast
continent so far to the east, so distant, that legend
and fact we're treated equally because no one could prove
one or the other, and they certainly intermingle, and it
was difficult to figure out what's what. Yeah, well, I
(04:32):
mean there were legends that that China had these ancient,
ancient pyramids that were around long before any other structure,
that were perhaps hidden for some reason, right hidden from
the rest of the world. And this idea makes sense
when we look at the historical context of trade restrictions
(04:53):
and travel restrictions in China for Westerners, you know, like
the secret of the silk worm or silk manufacturing. It
seemed very reasonable to people that, of course the civilization
would have more secrets, you know, that's just what they
do apparently, And and the ancient secrets are some of
(05:15):
the most fascinating, right because the ones that especially gosh,
ancient hidden secrets, that's just like perfect, It's the perfect
thing for any mystery novel, for any anyone who's even
inclined to want to explore those regions of their own mind. Yeah. Absolutely.
And I know when we say ancient hidden secrets, many
(05:37):
people may think, well, what are you guys gonna go
full history channel on me here? Not really, but we
do have to point out that there are so many
real examples of ancient hidden secrets, often tied to religions,
to mystery religions, right, and so it is completely reasonable
(05:59):
if we're a person who's living in these ages past,
it's completely reasonable for us to assume that this legend
of pyramids is true. However, things change here and we
have to start with the folklore. So here here are
the facts. After these legends have been established, and they
(06:19):
are pretty well insulated into the world of Western folklore
as kind of footnotes. There's not a ton of exploration
or literature about them. Things change when a modern sighting occurs.
In nineteen twelve, there's a trader and a travel agent
by the name of fred Meyer Schroeder who is the
(06:41):
first modern Westerner to record a sighting of a pyramid
and the Shansi province of the country of China. So
what happens. It's twelve, which means he's probably not flying right. Yeah,
he's got one of those hats, you know, that that
you find in old movies the large explorer has. Yeah,
(07:03):
not necessarily, but but he's walking. He's got a guide
with him who happened to be a Buddhist monk. And
then he sees way off in the distance. He's not
really sure what it is, but he kind of squints
a little bit maybe, and he thinks, oh, that's a
that's a pyramid, and they're all these other little structures
around it. WHOA what am I looking at here? And
(07:24):
we have a quote, Yes, he says, let's see, he's
an old timey American. It was even more on canny
than if we had found it in the wilderness. About
those pyramids were to some extent exposed to the eyes
of the world, but still totally unknown in the western world. Yes, yes,
so the and just the remarkable thing, at least in
(07:47):
his eyes, with this discovery is that they're just kind
of sitting there. And if you happen to be walking
along where he was walking along, or maybe even flying
a plane in that area, well yeah, or you know,
in the air of for some reason, in a limp
even or a hot air balloon, balloon. You're gonna see
this thing and it's just sitting there and it would
be very difficult to cover up the fact that it existed. Right.
(08:11):
And by comparison, there are people in the modern day
who experienced a similar fascination when they attempt to observe
spy satellites, right, because they're publicly un acknowledged. No one's
supposed to know about them, but you can't really hide
them based still blink, or you couldn't for a while, right,
(08:31):
So it's just inversed as far as elevation and sit Yeah, sightline. Yeah,
it's not one to what, but it's still it's it's
a pretty I don't know, it's somewhere between hilarious and fascinating.
But it's important to know it here that fred Meyer
Schroeder is an actual person. So in a lot of
(08:52):
these early explorer stories and tales like the idea of
an ancient civilization hidden in the Grand Canyon, what we
find is that the person who is our reporter or
eye witness for this stuff often turns out to be
the pseudonym for a unscrupulous journalist or an editor who
(09:15):
wants to get people excited However, there's a great book
you can read. There's an okay book you can read
called Guns Golden Caravans. The Extraordinary Life and Times of
Fred Meyer Schroeder. It's back in u written by him. No,
it's written by Robert Onney Easton, and Robert Easton writes
this biography, which is based on primary sources in first person,
(09:42):
which is I would say that put me off a
bit about just just reading a first person biography is
it's a little weird to me. But it does go
through the life and times of this guy, So we
do know that he is real. We do know that well,
he saw something. Maybe it was just pyramid, like you know,
(10:06):
maybe it was a structure that appeared to be a
pyramid from that distance from right. So one of the
initial questions, some of the more skeptical of us in
the crowd may be asking, is what's the difference between
what looks like a pyramid in in a close to
mid distance and a mountain? You know, given the right terrain,
(10:27):
a mountain could look pyramid s just a hill maybe
or just a hill. What's what's the difference be that?
As it may. Schroeder goes on to have many adventures,
and our story leaves him. It jumps to there's a
US Air pilot named James Gosman on the return leg
(10:49):
of a supply run from China to India. And during
this run, just to imagine the cartography here, during this flight,
they leave from a position in China to supply arms
or food other various sunjuries to a spot in India
and it's a round trip things, so they fly back
(11:11):
to China. This can be dangerous because there's not a
huge margin of error for the fuel tank. They have
to go over something called the Burma bump, which may
be familiar to people who have looked into night in
this era of time in this part of the world.
So the Burma bumps a problem. The guys flying back
(11:32):
to China after dropping off these supplies, and due to
engine trouble, he has to lower his altitude, so he
was much lower than he would have normally at this
point in the trip. And that's when things get kind
of weird. Yeah, he uh again. Very similarly, he sees
what he believes to be a pyramid, and this is
(11:55):
no ordinary pyramid to him. This thing is huge, he said,
it's got to be bigger than the pyramids in Egypt,
and it must be built of some um sparkling white
marble or polished stone. And why does it have uh,
why does I have jewels encrusting the capstone? What the
(12:18):
hell is going on? But of course he's still got
to land his playing, so he makes a note of it.
He flies back over and he is convinced. We do
have to say in his defense here or in defense
of his account. He is a professional pilot, so he
(12:38):
is familiar with how things appear from the air. He
gets the concept of perspective and in the various factors
that could influence his vision because he has to rely
on this vision. He has to rely on this vision
in order to stay alive in the air. So he
is one of the most reliable witnesses possible at this point.
(13:00):
And he's not the only person who sees this. No,
So that was ninety five when James Gosman saw it.
Then two years later, March nineteen, Colonel Maurice Sheehan he uh,
he's the Far Eastern director of the trans World Airline.
He recounted a sighting that ended up in the New
(13:20):
York Times. Actually his his recounting. And we have another quote,
would you do the honors? Absolutely. I flew around a
mountain and then we came to a valley. Directly below
us was a gigantic white pyramid. It looked as if
it were from a fairy tale. The pyramid was draped
and shimmering white. It could have been metal or some
(13:40):
other form of stone. It was white on all sides.
What was most curious about it was its capstone, a
large piece of precious gem like material. I was deeply
moved by the colossal size of the thing. And a
few days after this, there's a photo that emerges. It's
printed in the New York Sunday News. This photo is
(14:03):
allegedly of the pyramid that they are describing, and Matt
we you pulled up the original photograph there it does
it looks like a man made mound. It does. Certainly
it doesn't necessarily match the description that Sheehan and Gosman
(14:26):
are putting on it, probably due to the quality of
the photograph and the fact that it's in black and white,
so you don't see the same color values. Yeah, it's
high contrast black and white. The angle that it's at
you can see the shadow from the sun casting the
pyramid shape, so you can tell that it is actually
(14:47):
pyramid shaped. Um, there's not much around it there. It
looks like there may be some structures of some sort
on one of the sides. Yeah, but yeah, it's I mean,
it definitely is pyramid shaped. So this and similar stories
they draw a great public interest and the game of
(15:07):
telephone begins. So now when you read about these encounters
on many sites, what you'll see is that the quote
from Sheehn is attributed to Gosman as well as the photo.
That doesn't discredit what they're saying, but it is important
(15:28):
for us to note that people started muddying things up
pretty early on in this story. So for many people,
even in two thousand eighteen, that was the first time
the West was aware of these structures. That's that's what
most people believe. That's what many of us believe. It
(15:48):
started in the nineteen forties. What's happening now, we'll shed
some light on this. After a word from our sponsor.
We're back and we're going back in time. We're going
to the first Western mention of Chinese pyramids, which is
(16:09):
not no it goes back to sixteen sixties seven when
Jesuit Athanasius Kersher writes about them in his book China
Monumentous Illustrata. And you can actually find this on archive
dot org if you choose to go down that rabbit hole. Um,
it is really interesting looking. You can flip through some
(16:32):
of the pages and look and look at it. It's
got some great maps in there of China. It's got
lots of writing that I cannot read. Um, it's a
it's a cool manuscripture book. It's very very cool. Oh wow,
really great illustrations in here. And in this book he
(16:55):
conducts more of a survey of these various structures. Yeah,
and as you said, doesn't and an inordinate amount of
time on any particular one, but he does mention them
again sixteen sixty seven. And if we jump back to
the days of Gosman and Sheehan and the various things
being published in newspapers about these pyramids, we find that
(17:17):
uh bless their hearts, as they say in the South
and outfit name the Science newsletter tried to dispel some
of what they saw as exaggeration. This publication exists today,
by the way, they are known as Science News. On
April twelfth of nine, they said, quote the Chinese pyramids
of that region are built of mud and dirt and
(17:39):
are more like mounds than the pyramids of Egypt, and
the region is little traveled. American scientists who have been
in the area suggests that the height of one thousand
feet or three more than twice as high as any
of the Egyptian pyramids may have been exaggerated because most
of the Chinese mounds of that area are built relatively low.
But the most important part to this story, and this
(18:00):
quotation comes at the end. The location reported forty miles
sixty kilometers southwest of Sean, is in an area of
great archaeological importance, but few of the pyramids have ever
been explored. All right, so let's let's think about this,
as so many academics want to say, let's unpack this.
(18:22):
So the argument here is that experts are aware something
exists out there, and they believe reports of the structure
have either been purposefully or accidentally exaggerated. And although they
gently point out that a pyramid is not automatically the
Egyptian structure most people think of, they do admit that
most scholars don't know what's inside these structures or how
(18:44):
they were built. And so on. So many questions still
remain right, and researchers like Chris Meyer are certain that
the pyramid depicted in the photo that we just described
is actually the Mao Ling mausolem of the Emperor. And
while it is the largest tomb built during the Han dynasty,
(19:05):
it's still only about a hundred and fifty four ft
or forty seven meters high. So if you look at
modern photos of the mound at this mausolem, it does
it does bear a striking resemblance. Oh yeah, for sure,
I'm looking at one right now. There's a little more
tree cover right as the trees have grown there, but
(19:28):
it's still it still looks close enough for government work. Yeah,
this is where the mystery has remained for several decades.
We knew there was something there, and the witnesses all
proved to be real people rather than inventions of journalists,
but we had no clue how old these structures might be,
and we didn't know what might be inside, at least
(19:51):
that is until now Here's where it gets crazy. So
we may have solved that mystery of the legendary white
sparkly pyramid. Uh. These recent investigations have revealed a lot
more about ancient China than than we thought they might uh.
In in August ofen there's an issue of Antiquity, a
(20:11):
journal published by the Cambridge University Press archaeologists, they revealed
that while excavating a ruin that historically people had thought,
or just scientists and archaeologists had thought it was part
of the Great Wall, they actually stumbled across something completely different,
insanely different. I would say, you know how often in
(20:33):
popular reporting, a small thing that could be maybe a
possibility is turned into a height buzzfeedyesque headline by different
authors and stuff. This happens all the time in the
world of experimental physics, right pretty much any science, pretty
much any science. This is unusual because this is the
(20:56):
real deal. Everything we're about to tell you is absolutely true.
In China. What they found when they thought they were
looking at this other part of the Great Wall was
a four thousand, three hundred year old metropolis, at least
that old, a city that was lost completely to history,
(21:18):
with a massive pyramid at its heart. This pyramid is
at least two hundred and thirty ft tall or seventy
meters tall, and it spans fifty nine acres or twenty
three point eight hectares at its base. Now that is massive,
the essentially the the area that it covers. So just
for a little perspective here the Great Pyramid of Pyramid
(21:41):
of Giza, it has a height of about a hundred
and thirty nine meters, so we're looking at seventy versus
a hundred nine um. So this new this new pyramid
is significantly shorter. But the Great Pyramid of Giza, this
massive thing that we all imagine when we see a pyramid,
it only takes up about five and a half hectares
at its base, Yeah, compared to twenty three point eight
(22:06):
for this new pyramid. And this makes this new pyramid
a much larger structure by some measures. Right. But also
you know, we know this goes down to the construction
methods because one pyramid to stone, the other one we
think is rammed compacted earth, we think, we think, but
(22:26):
it makes sense because of its location that we'll get
into here in a second. And it gets weirder. So
this pyramid, which again was entirely lost to history along
with the city which we're just spoiler alert. The city
was huge. The pyramid was decorated with eye symbols and
anthropomorphic or part human part animal faces. The ye eyes
(22:50):
it had, it had eyes. It's decorative with pyramid eyes
and animal human hybrids. It's very similar to Egyptian things
that you will see in hieroglyphics. Just putting that out there,
and now I'm thinking of the eye of the pyramid
on the dollars and our wallets. Oh boy, that's true.
(23:11):
So according to the scientists who conducted the dig or
are conducting it, these figures may have endowed the stepped
pyramid with special religious power and further strengthened the general
visual impression on its large audience. It's stepped right, so
it contains eleven steps. They're not the kind of steps
(23:31):
you can easily walk up. These are These are the
right angle kind of things like a zigger at almost Yeah,
it's almost like floors in a way. It's the same,
but it's it feels similar to them. Each of these
steps is lined with stone on the topmost steps. There
were extensive palaces with wooden pillars, roofing tiles, the gigantic
(23:52):
water reservoir, and domestic remains related to daily life. The
rulers of the city lived on top of this pyramid
on the eleventh step, of course they did on this
pyramid card with eyes. And also it looks like they
had the artisans and the skilled crafts people living or
(24:14):
at least working there. And they were a set of
walls surrounded this enclosure. And then there was another set
of walls surrounding the pyramid to restrict access by the
common folk. And then there was another set of These
are all stone walls, by the way, except no substitutions
religious despots. There was another set of stone walls surrounding
(24:37):
the city, so they're at least three to four degrees
of protection. These there are ramparts as well. It was
it was a big deal. It was an entire city
and was on lockdown. It also maybe home to the
oldest mural yet discovered in China. That's really cool. But
it gets stranger still, right when should we tell them
(25:00):
after a word from our sponsored so has been was
saying before. The walls of this area. The two separate
walls make this a gigantic space. And and for some reason, somehow,
(25:23):
even though it's such a large area, this place was
completely lost to time. Right now today, what is modernly
called is Simao We don't know what it was called.
You know, when it was flourishing, We don't have any
idea what what the civilization was or the people were um.
But for over five hundred years it flourished and grew
(25:45):
and eventually it reached an area of nine hundred and
eighty eight acres that's the city itself, or four hundred hectares,
and it made it one of the largest cities in
the world at its time. Yeah, one of the largest
at ease. We had no idea existed. We knew these
ruins were there as part of the Great Wall, but
(26:07):
no idea what was going on, much less it was
home to a pyramid. But what we do know now
is that it was very strange place where at least
it would seem alien to most modern observers today, is
a very very religious area sort of, and you know,
(26:28):
religion was a dominant political structure at the time, right
as as was in most pyramidal structures found throughout the world.
There are spaces of religious importance, right absolutely. So we
have made or these teams have made some discoveries that
(26:48):
are still baffling to some degree. So as the excavations continue,
archaeologists have already noted numerous aspects of the site, but
one thing that particularly interested them is the wealth of
jade artifacts that are crammed into spaces between the blocks
and every structure in Shamao found so far. The archaeologist
(27:09):
imagined this was meant to imbue the site with more
religious power potency. Yeah, or the perception thereof. I'd love
to know more about that. Just get like as they're
finding more, As you know, a couple of years from now,
maybe even a decade from now, we learn more about
the significance of the jade in these structures and why
weren't they stolen? Yeah, it's just been sitting there. And
(27:34):
the most grizzly part that we saved for last. There
are also remains of numerous human sacrifices. How many we
don't know yet, because these excavations continue in the outer
gateway of the Eastern Gate. On the outer rampart alone,
so towards the very outside, the research team already found
(27:56):
six pits full of human heads to capital aided human skulls. Yeah,
and these are just pits where bodies were dumped. But
in this case, it's not whole bodies, it's just the heads.
And some of the victims maybe from another nearby archaeological
site to the south of Shimao, and the people of
(28:16):
this city may have conquered that neighboring site, and these
victims are believed to have been taken to the pyramid
as captives during the expansion of the city and then
ritualistically killed for some religious give or take. We don't
know the religious practices of the people who populated this city,
(28:39):
yet we don't know how they influence creator China. In fact,
the paper that we mentioned that was published in Antiquity
is almost I mean, it's it's about how what is
seen as the periphery of modern Chinese civilization today was
once a cent sure of a civilization. Now those things
(29:01):
can shift. So it's a fairly dry paper. It's it is.
It's not full of buzzfeedy headlines, which I respect, but
be aware if you find a copy. It is an
academically centered work of thought. Well it's a it's a
it's a really I love thinking about it because it
(29:24):
makes you change and question your thoughts about where civilization
was developing in China at the time. Where were the
and it's what what you exactly what you're seeing the
papers about where were the centers of power, because it
feels like this place just with its size and the
way it was militarily built, you know, to withstand all
(29:45):
kinds of attack, and it was also a religious center.
It makes it feel as though this perhaps played a
large role in the large in the bigger area where
it's located. And here's another part of it that's strange.
I mean, you're absolutely right. We don't know why they
disappeared or how they disappeared. We don't know what brought
about the downfall of this five plus year old city.
(30:09):
Could it have been drought or famine? Those are two
Those are two big factors and a lot of disappearances
of ancient civilizations. Could it have been warring tribes or
neighboring communities. Could it have been a disease? Could there
(30:31):
violent religious practices have caught up with them? Is it
dismissive for us to say violent religious practices? Maybe that's
a good point, But here we have it off. If
a few years ago someone had told you or Matt
or me that a secret empire flourished in China, powered
by religious belief in human sacrifice, you probably have thought
(30:52):
that were bonkers, right, or you you would have maybe
put it in the same cognitive bucket that we reserve
for allegations of ancient aliens stuff like that. Or you
would have just said, I think you get the wrong area, right,
you would have said, maybe you're thinking of Mesoamerica. Right. Well,
it just goes to show how many more discoveries await us.
(31:15):
Our species is going to find things in the stars,
in the ground, most particularly in the oceans beneath us.
I'm pretty certain we're going to see more and more
of this stuff as the technology to build reconstructions of
things swallowed by the waves, As that technology increases in
sophistication decreases in price, we're going to see some startling things.
(31:39):
I just want to say how much I love the
phrase things swallowed by the waves. It's true, that's what happens.
I know. I just enjoy that phrase. Everything is terrible
and we're all gonna die. Well, that's true, I mean,
that's definitely true. No, no, Ben, Ben, you're right, because
I agree and I'm right there with you, buddy. Well,
thank you, Matt, thank you, very thank you, very much.
I'm sure it is an ancient phrase that exists across
(32:02):
many languages. I do have to crack myself. It's pith helmet,
not plinth. Oh, pith helmet. Pith helmet, that's the that's
the Safari helmet. Yeah, yeah, the old doctor living instant,
I presumed. So what do you think was the significance
of Shumao and this new this new pyramid and this
(32:24):
new city that's been found out near the Great Wall?
Have you ever been to the Great Wall and maybe
seen something near there that perhaps was this? Do you
have any stories just in general from China and your travels,
or do you live in China and you can tell
us something about any of this? Is there more? Because
everything we've read so far as academic papers and just
(32:47):
some you know, some online journalism about what's been going
on there, we'd love to hear a source from a price,
like a primary source from the area and tell us
about it. Um If you want to do that, you
can find us on Twitter where we're conspirat see stuff
conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Facebook is conspiracy stuff and
you should definitely join up with our Facebook group. Here's
(33:07):
where it gets crazy. All you have to do is
answer a question about who hosts the show. Uh. And
if you're listening to this one as your first episode, Uh,
you need to put Matt, Ben and Noel because that
is the correct answer. Although we will we will take
bag of badgers. Sure, and if I'm if I'm there,
(33:28):
I'm I'm notoriously happy to let somebody in. If there's
something that makes me laugh, don't don't tell Cat. Sure,
and uh, that's that's Cat Riley, one of our moderators.
Shout out to you. Cat, shout out to Zach and
the rest of the team. Additionally, we are going on
tour to a city near you. You can find details
(33:50):
about that on our website. There's probably depend on where
you live. There's probably an ad plane about it too.
So uh, forgive our accident. We're done to see if
if there is redundancy that exists. We don't need your forgiveness.
And this isn't what This isn't redundant. This is important. Ben,
there we go. Well, you know what, Matt, You're right,
because I was all a segue for me to say.
(34:12):
If you are a Mandarin speaking or Cantonese speaking listener,
please forgive us our mispronunciations. That one I am going
to stick with the tour thing. Was just trying to
get to a get a segue there, but speaking so, Yeah,
I go to stuff they don't want you to know
dot com and click on the live shows a little
(34:33):
link there, and you will get tickets if you wish, yes, yes,
please buy them for your friends, by for your buy
for your relatives. You know, if you have relatives that
you think would find this particularly interesting, then then let
us know. Let us know who's going, and maybe we
can give them a shout out on air. There you go,
(34:53):
it'll be a great date and actually will be. I
was being to talk to you about this off air, Matt,
but I think we have a couple of Yeah, I
think it will actually be a good date show. But
the best way to find out is to join us
on tour, or you know, you could try to ask
us for spoilers. I don't know if you'll get any.
(35:14):
As Matt said, we're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the
good ones, all this stuff. But if none of that
is your particular bag of badgers and the social media thing,
it just creeps you out. We of all people get it,
and we have good news. You can write to us directly.
We are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com,
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M
(00:24):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. They
called me Ben. We are joined with our super producer,
Paul the Ace decond. Most importantly, you are you. You
are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know we're going into. I was thinking about
this off airmat We're going into a bit of a
(00:45):
pyramid scheme today, but not the not the way we
ordinarily do. Oh god, okay, yes we are. We're going
into an actual pyramid scheme where in a scheme of pyramids,
scheme about a pyramid, several schemes in fact. So in
an earlier episode, you and I explored the stories of
(01:09):
non Egyptian pyramids. Do you remember that one. Yeah, they
were all over the world, places where you probably wouldn't
expect to find pyramids. Sure, even if you are a
seasoned archaeologist. Right, It's true that while most people, at
least here in the West, associate pyramids with the Valley
of Kings in ancient Egypt. You know, the huge pyramid
(01:30):
of Giza and stuff. The world has tons of other
smaller similar structures. Yeah, you also are you associate the
pyramid with a rigid structure in a way built built
out of some sort of stone or block, where you
it's highly defined. But then you get other things like
cigarettes that you find throughout the world, especially in places
(01:51):
like Central and South America. You got mounds in North America.
You can find those all over the place. Even here
in Georgia you can find some different kinds of mounds. Um,
you can find them in Europe too. Yeah. In fact,
structures similar to pyramids have been found not just in Europe,
not just in Mesoamerica and North America, but in Indonesia, Peru, India,
(02:15):
the Roman Empire, uh Sudan, in the Kingdom of Nubia, Greece, Nigeria,
all these other places that you would not normally expect
to be home to pyramids. In fact, we could likely say,
if there's a land mass that you think does not
have pyramids on it, you're probably wrong, unless we're talking
about Antarctico, which is a different episode. We've read the mails.
(02:38):
We will get to it. I wonder if this is
not something that I have researched, and I don't know
if you have either, But pyramids on islands, I wonder
how common that is because it seems like it would
be difficult to find just the raw materials to make
a pyramid true? True? Uh? And would those be more
of the mound type thing is given the difficulties of
(03:02):
creating large works of stone, and most islands, other than
the Rapa Nui in Easter Island, that was an enormous undertaking.
They also apparently the people destroyed their economy in pursuit
of these um Such a fascinating tragic story. But it's
a good point, Matt. The glib answer to that question,
(03:26):
where the glib deflection rather is well, isn't a continent
just a large island? I don't. We don't think that flies, folks.
We think there is a size limit to what should
be termed an island. And as we're going to find out,
there are many ways to build a pyramid like structure,
and one of them is just to take the earth
that exists there and basically press it as hard as
(03:49):
you can to create a structure. And quite a few
pyramids are exactly that. They are pressed rammed earth, and
for a long time, there were tons of legends about
pyramids in one of the most mysterious parts of the world.
(04:10):
At least two early westerners that as China, this vast
continent so far to the east, so distant, that legend
and fact we're treated equally because no one could prove
one or the other, and they certainly intermingle, and it
was difficult to figure out what's what. Yeah, well, I
(04:32):
mean there were legends that that China had these ancient,
ancient pyramids that were around long before any other structure,
that were perhaps hidden for some reason, right hidden from
the rest of the world. And this idea makes sense
when we look at the historical context of trade restrictions
(04:53):
and travel restrictions in China for Westerners, you know, like
the secret of the silk worm or silk manufacturing. It
seemed very reasonable to people that, of course the civilization
would have more secrets, you know, that's just what they
do apparently, And and the ancient secrets are some of
(05:15):
the most fascinating, right because the ones that especially gosh,
ancient hidden secrets, that's just like perfect, It's the perfect
thing for any mystery novel, for any anyone who's even
inclined to want to explore those regions of their own mind. Yeah. Absolutely.
And I know when we say ancient hidden secrets, many
(05:37):
people may think, well, what are you guys gonna go
full history channel on me here? Not really, but we
do have to point out that there are so many
real examples of ancient hidden secrets, often tied to religions,
to mystery religions, right, and so it is completely reasonable
(05:59):
if we're a person who's living in these ages past,
it's completely reasonable for us to assume that this legend
of pyramids is true. However, things change here and we
have to start with the folklore. So here here are
the facts. After these legends have been established, and they
(06:19):
are pretty well insulated into the world of Western folklore
as kind of footnotes. There's not a ton of exploration
or literature about them. Things change when a modern sighting occurs.
In nineteen twelve, there's a trader and a travel agent
by the name of fred Meyer Schroeder who is the
(06:41):
first modern Westerner to record a sighting of a pyramid
and the Shansi province of the country of China. So
what happens. It's twelve, which means he's probably not flying right. Yeah,
he's got one of those hats, you know, that that
you find in old movies the large explorer has. Yeah,
(07:03):
not necessarily, but but he's walking. He's got a guide
with him who happened to be a Buddhist monk. And
then he sees way off in the distance. He's not
really sure what it is, but he kind of squints
a little bit maybe, and he thinks, oh, that's a
that's a pyramid, and they're all these other little structures
around it. WHOA what am I looking at here? And
(07:24):
we have a quote, Yes, he says, let's see, he's
an old timey American. It was even more on canny
than if we had found it in the wilderness. About
those pyramids were to some extent exposed to the eyes
of the world, but still totally unknown in the western world. Yes, yes,
so the and just the remarkable thing, at least in
(07:47):
his eyes, with this discovery is that they're just kind
of sitting there. And if you happen to be walking
along where he was walking along, or maybe even flying
a plane in that area, well yeah, or you know,
in the air of for some reason, in a limp
even or a hot air balloon, balloon. You're gonna see
this thing and it's just sitting there and it would
be very difficult to cover up the fact that it existed. Right.
(08:11):
And by comparison, there are people in the modern day
who experienced a similar fascination when they attempt to observe
spy satellites, right, because they're publicly un acknowledged. No one's
supposed to know about them, but you can't really hide
them based still blink, or you couldn't for a while, right,
(08:31):
So it's just inversed as far as elevation and sit Yeah, sightline. Yeah,
it's not one to what, but it's still it's it's
a pretty I don't know, it's somewhere between hilarious and fascinating.
But it's important to know it here that fred Meyer
Schroeder is an actual person. So in a lot of
(08:52):
these early explorer stories and tales like the idea of
an ancient civilization hidden in the Grand Canyon, what we
find is that the person who is our reporter or
eye witness for this stuff often turns out to be
the pseudonym for a unscrupulous journalist or an editor who
(09:15):
wants to get people excited However, there's a great book
you can read. There's an okay book you can read
called Guns Golden Caravans. The Extraordinary Life and Times of
Fred Meyer Schroeder. It's back in u written by him. No,
it's written by Robert Onney Easton, and Robert Easton writes
this biography, which is based on primary sources in first person,
(09:42):
which is I would say that put me off a
bit about just just reading a first person biography is
it's a little weird to me. But it does go
through the life and times of this guy, So we
do know that he is real. We do know that well,
he saw something. Maybe it was just pyramid, like you know,
(10:06):
maybe it was a structure that appeared to be a
pyramid from that distance from right. So one of the
initial questions, some of the more skeptical of us in
the crowd may be asking, is what's the difference between
what looks like a pyramid in in a close to
mid distance and a mountain? You know, given the right terrain,
(10:27):
a mountain could look pyramid s just a hill maybe
or just a hill. What's what's the difference be that?
As it may. Schroeder goes on to have many adventures,
and our story leaves him. It jumps to there's a
US Air pilot named James Gosman on the return leg
(10:49):
of a supply run from China to India. And during
this run, just to imagine the cartography here, during this flight,
they leave from a position in China to supply arms
or food other various sunjuries to a spot in India
and it's a round trip things, so they fly back
(11:11):
to China. This can be dangerous because there's not a
huge margin of error for the fuel tank. They have
to go over something called the Burma bump, which may
be familiar to people who have looked into night in
this era of time in this part of the world.
So the Burma bumps a problem. The guys flying back
(11:32):
to China after dropping off these supplies, and due to
engine trouble, he has to lower his altitude, so he
was much lower than he would have normally at this
point in the trip. And that's when things get kind
of weird. Yeah, he uh again. Very similarly, he sees
what he believes to be a pyramid, and this is
(11:55):
no ordinary pyramid to him. This thing is huge, he said,
it's got to be bigger than the pyramids in Egypt,
and it must be built of some um sparkling white
marble or polished stone. And why does it have uh,
why does I have jewels encrusting the capstone? What the
(12:18):
hell is going on? But of course he's still got
to land his playing, so he makes a note of it.
He flies back over and he is convinced. We do
have to say in his defense here or in defense
of his account. He is a professional pilot, so he
(12:38):
is familiar with how things appear from the air. He
gets the concept of perspective and in the various factors
that could influence his vision because he has to rely
on this vision. He has to rely on this vision
in order to stay alive in the air. So he
is one of the most reliable witnesses possible at this point.
(13:00):
And he's not the only person who sees this. No,
So that was ninety five when James Gosman saw it.
Then two years later, March nineteen, Colonel Maurice Sheehan he uh,
he's the Far Eastern director of the trans World Airline.
He recounted a sighting that ended up in the New
(13:20):
York Times. Actually his his recounting. And we have another quote,
would you do the honors? Absolutely. I flew around a
mountain and then we came to a valley. Directly below
us was a gigantic white pyramid. It looked as if
it were from a fairy tale. The pyramid was draped
and shimmering white. It could have been metal or some
(13:40):
other form of stone. It was white on all sides.
What was most curious about it was its capstone, a
large piece of precious gem like material. I was deeply
moved by the colossal size of the thing. And a
few days after this, there's a photo that emerges. It's
printed in the New York Sunday News. This photo is
(14:03):
allegedly of the pyramid that they are describing, and Matt
we you pulled up the original photograph there it does
it looks like a man made mound. It does. Certainly
it doesn't necessarily match the description that Sheehan and Gosman
(14:26):
are putting on it, probably due to the quality of
the photograph and the fact that it's in black and white,
so you don't see the same color values. Yeah, it's
high contrast black and white. The angle that it's at
you can see the shadow from the sun casting the
pyramid shape, so you can tell that it is actually
(14:47):
pyramid shaped. Um, there's not much around it there. It
looks like there may be some structures of some sort
on one of the sides. Yeah, but yeah, it's I mean,
it definitely is pyramid shaped. So this and similar stories
they draw a great public interest and the game of
(15:07):
telephone begins. So now when you read about these encounters
on many sites, what you'll see is that the quote
from Sheehn is attributed to Gosman as well as the photo.
That doesn't discredit what they're saying, but it is important
(15:28):
for us to note that people started muddying things up
pretty early on in this story. So for many people,
even in two thousand eighteen, that was the first time
the West was aware of these structures. That's that's what
most people believe. That's what many of us believe. It
(15:48):
started in the nineteen forties. What's happening now, we'll shed
some light on this. After a word from our sponsor.
We're back and we're going back in time. We're going
to the first Western mention of Chinese pyramids, which is
(16:09):
not no it goes back to sixteen sixties seven when
Jesuit Athanasius Kersher writes about them in his book China
Monumentous Illustrata. And you can actually find this on archive
dot org if you choose to go down that rabbit hole. Um,
it is really interesting looking. You can flip through some
(16:32):
of the pages and look and look at it. It's
got some great maps in there of China. It's got
lots of writing that I cannot read. Um, it's a
it's a cool manuscripture book. It's very very cool. Oh wow,
really great illustrations in here. And in this book he
(16:55):
conducts more of a survey of these various structures. Yeah,
and as you said, doesn't and an inordinate amount of
time on any particular one, but he does mention them
again sixteen sixty seven. And if we jump back to
the days of Gosman and Sheehan and the various things
being published in newspapers about these pyramids, we find that
(17:17):
uh bless their hearts, as they say in the South
and outfit name the Science newsletter tried to dispel some
of what they saw as exaggeration. This publication exists today,
by the way, they are known as Science News. On
April twelfth of nine, they said, quote the Chinese pyramids
of that region are built of mud and dirt and
(17:39):
are more like mounds than the pyramids of Egypt, and
the region is little traveled. American scientists who have been
in the area suggests that the height of one thousand
feet or three more than twice as high as any
of the Egyptian pyramids may have been exaggerated because most
of the Chinese mounds of that area are built relatively low.
But the most important part to this story, and this
(18:00):
quotation comes at the end. The location reported forty miles
sixty kilometers southwest of Sean, is in an area of
great archaeological importance, but few of the pyramids have ever
been explored. All right, so let's let's think about this,
as so many academics want to say, let's unpack this.
(18:22):
So the argument here is that experts are aware something
exists out there, and they believe reports of the structure
have either been purposefully or accidentally exaggerated. And although they
gently point out that a pyramid is not automatically the
Egyptian structure most people think of, they do admit that
most scholars don't know what's inside these structures or how
(18:44):
they were built. And so on. So many questions still
remain right, and researchers like Chris Meyer are certain that
the pyramid depicted in the photo that we just described
is actually the Mao Ling mausolem of the Emperor. And
while it is the largest tomb built during the Han dynasty,
(19:05):
it's still only about a hundred and fifty four ft
or forty seven meters high. So if you look at
modern photos of the mound at this mausolem, it does
it does bear a striking resemblance. Oh yeah, for sure,
I'm looking at one right now. There's a little more
tree cover right as the trees have grown there, but
(19:28):
it's still it still looks close enough for government work. Yeah,
this is where the mystery has remained for several decades.
We knew there was something there, and the witnesses all
proved to be real people rather than inventions of journalists,
but we had no clue how old these structures might be,
and we didn't know what might be inside, at least
(19:51):
that is until now Here's where it gets crazy. So
we may have solved that mystery of the legendary white
sparkly pyramid. Uh. These recent investigations have revealed a lot
more about ancient China than than we thought they might uh.
In in August ofen there's an issue of Antiquity, a
(20:11):
journal published by the Cambridge University Press archaeologists, they revealed
that while excavating a ruin that historically people had thought,
or just scientists and archaeologists had thought it was part
of the Great Wall, they actually stumbled across something completely different,
insanely different. I would say, you know how often in
(20:33):
popular reporting, a small thing that could be maybe a
possibility is turned into a height buzzfeedyesque headline by different
authors and stuff. This happens all the time in the
world of experimental physics, right pretty much any science, pretty
much any science. This is unusual because this is the
(20:56):
real deal. Everything we're about to tell you is absolutely true.
In China. What they found when they thought they were
looking at this other part of the Great Wall was
a four thousand, three hundred year old metropolis, at least
that old, a city that was lost completely to history,
(21:18):
with a massive pyramid at its heart. This pyramid is
at least two hundred and thirty ft tall or seventy
meters tall, and it spans fifty nine acres or twenty
three point eight hectares at its base. Now that is massive,
the essentially the the area that it covers. So just
for a little perspective here the Great Pyramid of Pyramid
(21:41):
of Giza, it has a height of about a hundred
and thirty nine meters, so we're looking at seventy versus
a hundred nine um. So this new this new pyramid
is significantly shorter. But the Great Pyramid of Giza, this
massive thing that we all imagine when we see a pyramid,
it only takes up about five and a half hectares
at its base, Yeah, compared to twenty three point eight
(22:06):
for this new pyramid. And this makes this new pyramid
a much larger structure by some measures. Right. But also
you know, we know this goes down to the construction
methods because one pyramid to stone, the other one we
think is rammed compacted earth, we think, we think, but
(22:26):
it makes sense because of its location that we'll get
into here in a second. And it gets weirder. So
this pyramid, which again was entirely lost to history along
with the city which we're just spoiler alert. The city
was huge. The pyramid was decorated with eye symbols and
anthropomorphic or part human part animal faces. The ye eyes
(22:50):
it had, it had eyes. It's decorative with pyramid eyes
and animal human hybrids. It's very similar to Egyptian things
that you will see in hieroglyphics. Just putting that out there,
and now I'm thinking of the eye of the pyramid
on the dollars and our wallets. Oh boy, that's true.
(23:11):
So according to the scientists who conducted the dig or
are conducting it, these figures may have endowed the stepped
pyramid with special religious power and further strengthened the general
visual impression on its large audience. It's stepped right, so
it contains eleven steps. They're not the kind of steps
(23:31):
you can easily walk up. These are These are the
right angle kind of things like a zigger at almost Yeah,
it's almost like floors in a way. It's the same,
but it's it feels similar to them. Each of these
steps is lined with stone on the topmost steps. There
were extensive palaces with wooden pillars, roofing tiles, the gigantic
(23:52):
water reservoir, and domestic remains related to daily life. The
rulers of the city lived on top of this pyramid
on the eleventh step, of course they did on this
pyramid card with eyes. And also it looks like they
had the artisans and the skilled crafts people living or
(24:14):
at least working there. And they were a set of
walls surrounded this enclosure. And then there was another set
of walls surrounding the pyramid to restrict access by the
common folk. And then there was another set of These
are all stone walls, by the way, except no substitutions
religious despots. There was another set of stone walls surrounding
(24:37):
the city, so they're at least three to four degrees
of protection. These there are ramparts as well. It was
it was a big deal. It was an entire city
and was on lockdown. It also maybe home to the
oldest mural yet discovered in China. That's really cool. But
it gets stranger still, right when should we tell them
(25:00):
after a word from our sponsored so has been was
saying before. The walls of this area. The two separate
walls make this a gigantic space. And and for some reason, somehow,
(25:23):
even though it's such a large area, this place was
completely lost to time. Right now today, what is modernly
called is Simao We don't know what it was called.
You know, when it was flourishing, We don't have any
idea what what the civilization was or the people were um.
But for over five hundred years it flourished and grew
(25:45):
and eventually it reached an area of nine hundred and
eighty eight acres that's the city itself, or four hundred hectares,
and it made it one of the largest cities in
the world at its time. Yeah, one of the largest
at ease. We had no idea existed. We knew these
ruins were there as part of the Great Wall, but
(26:07):
no idea what was going on, much less it was
home to a pyramid. But what we do know now
is that it was very strange place where at least
it would seem alien to most modern observers today, is
a very very religious area sort of, and you know,
(26:28):
religion was a dominant political structure at the time, right
as as was in most pyramidal structures found throughout the world.
There are spaces of religious importance, right absolutely. So we
have made or these teams have made some discoveries that
(26:48):
are still baffling to some degree. So as the excavations continue,
archaeologists have already noted numerous aspects of the site, but
one thing that particularly interested them is the wealth of
jade artifacts that are crammed into spaces between the blocks
and every structure in Shamao found so far. The archaeologist
(27:09):
imagined this was meant to imbue the site with more
religious power potency. Yeah, or the perception thereof. I'd love
to know more about that. Just get like as they're
finding more, As you know, a couple of years from now,
maybe even a decade from now, we learn more about
the significance of the jade in these structures and why
weren't they stolen? Yeah, it's just been sitting there. And
(27:34):
the most grizzly part that we saved for last. There
are also remains of numerous human sacrifices. How many we
don't know yet, because these excavations continue in the outer
gateway of the Eastern Gate. On the outer rampart alone,
so towards the very outside, the research team already found
(27:56):
six pits full of human heads to capital aided human skulls. Yeah,
and these are just pits where bodies were dumped. But
in this case, it's not whole bodies, it's just the heads.
And some of the victims maybe from another nearby archaeological
site to the south of Shimao, and the people of
(28:16):
this city may have conquered that neighboring site, and these
victims are believed to have been taken to the pyramid
as captives during the expansion of the city and then
ritualistically killed for some religious give or take. We don't
know the religious practices of the people who populated this city,
(28:39):
yet we don't know how they influence creator China. In fact,
the paper that we mentioned that was published in Antiquity
is almost I mean, it's it's about how what is
seen as the periphery of modern Chinese civilization today was
once a cent sure of a civilization. Now those things
(29:01):
can shift. So it's a fairly dry paper. It's it is.
It's not full of buzzfeedy headlines, which I respect, but
be aware if you find a copy. It is an
academically centered work of thought. Well it's a it's a
it's a really I love thinking about it because it
(29:24):
makes you change and question your thoughts about where civilization
was developing in China at the time. Where were the
and it's what what you exactly what you're seeing the
papers about where were the centers of power, because it
feels like this place just with its size and the
way it was militarily built, you know, to withstand all
(29:45):
kinds of attack, and it was also a religious center.
It makes it feel as though this perhaps played a
large role in the large in the bigger area where
it's located. And here's another part of it that's strange.
I mean, you're absolutely right. We don't know why they
disappeared or how they disappeared. We don't know what brought
about the downfall of this five plus year old city.
(30:09):
Could it have been drought or famine? Those are two
Those are two big factors and a lot of disappearances
of ancient civilizations. Could it have been warring tribes or
neighboring communities. Could it have been a disease? Could there
(30:31):
violent religious practices have caught up with them? Is it
dismissive for us to say violent religious practices? Maybe that's
a good point, But here we have it off. If
a few years ago someone had told you or Matt
or me that a secret empire flourished in China, powered
by religious belief in human sacrifice, you probably have thought
(30:52):
that were bonkers, right, or you you would have maybe
put it in the same cognitive bucket that we reserve
for allegations of ancient aliens stuff like that. Or you
would have just said, I think you get the wrong area, right,
you would have said, maybe you're thinking of Mesoamerica. Right. Well,
it just goes to show how many more discoveries await us.
(31:15):
Our species is going to find things in the stars,
in the ground, most particularly in the oceans beneath us.
I'm pretty certain we're going to see more and more
of this stuff as the technology to build reconstructions of
things swallowed by the waves, As that technology increases in
sophistication decreases in price, we're going to see some startling things.
(31:39):
I just want to say how much I love the
phrase things swallowed by the waves. It's true, that's what happens.
I know. I just enjoy that phrase. Everything is terrible
and we're all gonna die. Well, that's true, I mean,
that's definitely true. No, no, Ben, Ben, you're right, because
I agree and I'm right there with you, buddy. Well,
thank you, Matt, thank you, very thank you, very much.
I'm sure it is an ancient phrase that exists across
(32:02):
many languages. I do have to crack myself. It's pith helmet,
not plinth. Oh, pith helmet. Pith helmet, that's the that's
the Safari helmet. Yeah, yeah, the old doctor living instant,
I presumed. So what do you think was the significance
of Shumao and this new this new pyramid and this
(32:24):
new city that's been found out near the Great Wall?
Have you ever been to the Great Wall and maybe
seen something near there that perhaps was this? Do you
have any stories just in general from China and your travels,
or do you live in China and you can tell
us something about any of this? Is there more? Because
everything we've read so far as academic papers and just
(32:47):
some you know, some online journalism about what's been going
on there, we'd love to hear a source from a price,
like a primary source from the area and tell us
about it. Um If you want to do that, you
can find us on Twitter where we're conspirat see stuff
conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Facebook is conspiracy stuff and
you should definitely join up with our Facebook group. Here's
(33:07):
where it gets crazy. All you have to do is
answer a question about who hosts the show. Uh. And
if you're listening to this one as your first episode, Uh,
you need to put Matt, Ben and Noel because that
is the correct answer. Although we will we will take
bag of badgers. Sure, and if I'm if I'm there,
(33:28):
I'm I'm notoriously happy to let somebody in. If there's
something that makes me laugh, don't don't tell Cat. Sure,
and uh, that's that's Cat Riley, one of our moderators.
Shout out to you. Cat, shout out to Zach and
the rest of the team. Additionally, we are going on
tour to a city near you. You can find details
(33:50):
about that on our website. There's probably depend on where
you live. There's probably an ad plane about it too.
So uh, forgive our accident. We're done to see if
if there is redundancy that exists. We don't need your forgiveness.
And this isn't what This isn't redundant. This is important. Ben,
there we go. Well, you know what, Matt, You're right,
because I was all a segue for me to say.
(34:12):
If you are a Mandarin speaking or Cantonese speaking listener,
please forgive us our mispronunciations. That one I am going
to stick with the tour thing. Was just trying to
get to a get a segue there, but speaking so, Yeah,
I go to stuff they don't want you to know
dot com and click on the live shows a little
(34:33):
link there, and you will get tickets if you wish, yes, yes,
please buy them for your friends, by for your buy
for your relatives. You know, if you have relatives that
you think would find this particularly interesting, then then let
us know. Let us know who's going, and maybe we
can give them a shout out on air. There you go,
(34:53):
it'll be a great date and actually will be. I
was being to talk to you about this off air, Matt,
but I think we have a couple of Yeah, I
think it will actually be a good date show. But
the best way to find out is to join us
on tour, or you know, you could try to ask
us for spoilers. I don't know if you'll get any.
(35:14):
As Matt said, we're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the
good ones, all this stuff. But if none of that
is your particular bag of badgers and the social media thing,
it just creeps you out. We of all people get it,
and we have good news. You can write to us directly.
We are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com,
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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