March 1, 2019 • 55 mins
What if you could travel outside your body at will, sending your consciousness across the planet and beyond? While it may sound like a tale of science fiction to some, the phenomenon known as remote viewing was the subject intense government scrutiny for years. Join the guys as they interview physicist and author Russell Targ, creator of the new film Third Eye Spies, to learn more about his experience researching remote viewing, his work with the government, the future of remote viewing and more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,
(00:24):
and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel.
Our good friend and compatriot Matt Frederick is on adventures today,
but we will have someone filling in and you could
say they called me Ben. We are joined with our
super producer, Paul Mission Controlled Decans. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
(00:46):
want you to know a very trippy episode. This episode
is a trippy treat and it is something that's been
a long time in the worst because we've talked with
danced around this subject for years back as far as
the videos. I don't know if we danced around is
there Matt and I did this that time, you know.
And that's why I was such a bummer that Matt
couldn't be here today because this is something that's very
near and dear to him. So I hope we did
him proud with what you're about to hear him. Oh yes, yes,
(01:08):
we um. We are joined today by a very special guest,
the physicist parapsychologist and pioneer in the field of remote
viewing Russell Targ and Russell Targ has been instrumental in
UH in the way that we not just as people
(01:29):
but as governments understand the phenomenon they call remote viewing. Right.
He's perhaps best known in terms of this work for
his time with Stanford Research Institute, which I believe was
endowed by Stanford University and then spun off into a
completely independent entity in the early seventies. Targ got his
start in the hard science of lasers and then parlayed
(01:53):
that fascination with research and optics, and honestly, it was
an experiential thing for him to start because of his
faculties with his own vision, and he sort of took
that UH and turned it into this pursuit, lifelong pursuit
of being able to project yourself out of yourself and
being able to teach people how to do this. And
(02:13):
this is not a conspiracy theory. Dare we say there's
aspect of this that isn't a conspiracy at all. This
is has been declassified. Was a thing the c I
A participated in and funded actively. Long time listeners, you
will be familiar with many of the players involved and
certainly a lot of the phenomena involved. But today we
(02:34):
are going directly to the source. We recently had a
chance to sit down with Russell Targ ourselves, well sit
down in the podcast sense, and get a first hand
description of the evolution of s r I, the nuts
and bolts of remote viewing research, and possibly a look
(02:54):
into the future, although we say there's not much of
a difference. And Russell Targ was also instrumental in the
production of a film that is out now called Third
Eye Spies that goes into the history of his work
with the CIA. Some mysteries along the way that are
almost outside of the scope of this conversation, but I
think you'll see them in future episodes and more. And so,
(03:15):
without further ado, Russell Targ, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on the show with us today.
I believe one of our the first questions that our
audience will have will be a biographical or personal question. Uh.
You are a renowned physicist, parapsychologist and an author and
(03:37):
originally you uh you worked specifically with applications for laser technology.
To our audience, UH, the the idea of working in
that field and the idea of exploring what we would
today call ESP or remote viewing. Uh. They they seem
(03:58):
like at first plants two very very different things. Could
you tell us a little bit about what inspired your
exploration and experimentation with remote viewing. In the beginning, I
was a very verily defective person. My vision has lifelong
been terrible, so I was always doing things that could
(04:21):
improve my vision, and I got very interested in optics,
which is a natural thing for a usually handicapped person
to do. So through that I became what we could
call a pioneer in the development of the laser. I
was working on lasers before there were any lasers, so
I pursued that experiments with lasers laser communication, and I
(04:46):
wounded up building a ultra high power laser. But all
my life I was aware the psychic abilities were present
because as a kid I was interested in magic and
did pretend to magic on the stage. And when every
magician will tell you, I've talked to Melbourn, Christopher and
the Great christ Skin and they said, oh, yes, when
(05:09):
we're on the stage with the lights in our eyes,
we get the supplement our act with. Whenever sp comes
our way, and I had that experience also, so I
had the idea while I was doing laser work that
one of these days I would make a transition into
E s P work because I I was confident that
(05:32):
I could teach people how to get in touch with
their psychic abilities. So in my laser customer invited me
to a conference on speculative technology off the shore of Virginia,
and at that meeting I had a seven diputs run
in with Werner von Brown, Jim Fletcher, who the administrator
(05:56):
of all of NASA, and At Mitchell, who the astronaut
who just came to Earth. And together with my three
new friends, we outlined what a program investigating psychic abilities
would be and I took that to Stanford Research Institute.
So my first dough for ESP research was to build
(06:19):
an ESP teaching machine. And it just happens that that
machine I built is now available as a free application
called E s P Trainer for your iPhone. So I
got in. I got in business investigating psychic abilities through
(06:40):
my earlier development of an ESP teaching machine, and together
with support of NASA and also the CIA, we were
often running at Stanford. Because I had built laser stuff
for the CIA as well. So I had some credentials
with asked to end with the CIA so I could
(07:02):
propose this far out seeming program. And they knew that
I was a scientist who is already able to do
hard stuff and make it work, so they gave us
a small amount of money to start a program at
Stanford Research Institute. But so I have a question. So
for something like um ESP that even today sort of
(07:24):
exists for many in the speculative realm, where it's it's
difficult to prove, how do you take something like that,
especially when it involves funding and research dollars and eventually
government um And how do you prove something that too
many people is looked at a pseudoscience or as you know,
the supernatural. Well, there's there were ways to do that.
(07:46):
One of the ways I had, and I've written quite
a number of books describing how ESP worked with the
theory might be how you can learn to do it,
And of course that's not very efficacious. So I decided
five years ago to create a film making use of
all the previously top secret material we had. So I
(08:09):
made a film called Third Eye Spies, which shows people
doing psychic abilities looking for Soviet weapons factories, missing hostages,
Russian submarines. And the thing that makes our film unique,
makes it an event, is that we have on camera
(08:33):
the CIA contract monitors who oversaw our program. So we
have a CIS CIA scientist, Ken Kress, who is a
lifelong physicist, and Kid Green, who was the director of
the Life Science Division at the CIA, and these two
distinguished elder CIA operatives are on camera saying, as we
(08:58):
were polygraphed and we worked with Star and what he
said in this film is true. It really happened. So
unlike other films talking about ESP, where you have the
researchers or the psychics, here we have the guys who
paid for it. And you know, the CIA is not
(09:18):
easily amused. And we have these two distinguished CIA operators
on camera looking into the camera and said it might
be hard to believe, but we were there and it
really happened. So that's that's one. That's one way endeavored
to convince people that ESP is real. The other way, uh,
(09:42):
is to show them how to do it. So very often, uh,
we were trying to get money from the government to
do different kinds of things, and a government scientist will
come to our laboratory and say, well, we will show
can you show me what you guys are doing? And
in one instance like this, we had a visit from
the Under Secretary Defense Walter Lebert was a uh second
(10:08):
to the Secretary Defense at that time. Lebert came in
his helicopter clearing our parking lot and he said, okay,
can you show me something psychic? We've been supporting you. Now,
how do this work? And I said, certainly I can, sir. Well,
I'll just show you how to do it, which is
what I do. People come to the lab they want
(10:30):
to learn how to do resp and I show them
how to do remote viewing. So I said, the way
we do this, and your edjutants will go hide someplace
with my partner, how put off with some random location
in the San Francisco Bay area, and that's the target.
They've gone, some mystery spot, and I will sit with you, sir,
(10:52):
and I of course have no idea where they've gone,
but I will show you the moves to quiet your
mind and look for surprising images to pop into your awareness,
and then you will make a drawing of those surprising images.
And that's what we do. So he said, okay, I
(11:14):
if you tell me what to do, that I can
do that. He's a very senior scientist, accustomed to being successful.
And I said, all right, uh, they're at their place.
Now start drawing. And you see, you can't be wrong,
Dr Leberts, because only you know what your images are.
(11:34):
And I just want you to make a drawing of
what shows up in your awareness. That's surprising. And he
drew a kind of brick courtyard, circular courtyard with a
circular fountain in the middle, all bricks all the way around,
all bricks, so forth with fountain. He said, that's all
I got, the circular arrays of tears of bricks and said,
(11:57):
well that's fine. That's pretty surprising. And they came back
and then the four of us, the version, me and
the two travelers went to the place which were the
Arts Center, quite a distance from Sr. I, and he
got to see in real life what he had drawn,
and he said, well, that's pretty impressive that I didn't
(12:18):
even believe in this stuff. So what we know is
that remote viewing is an ability we all have to
quiet our minds and describe and experience what's going on
in a distance location and people can have that experience
and learn to quiet their minds and learn to do that.
(12:39):
And one of the most interesting things I know is
that remote viewing is a non local ability. Like much
in modern science, non locality is a very hot topic
pertaining particularly when when photons are electrons are separated at birth,
they remain attached. So if you have one of the twins,
(13:01):
the other one squeals, even though they're separated by the
whole universe. So the idea of non locality independent of
space and time is quite current in modern physics. It's
not it's not an occult idea anymore. The Buddhists, of course,
said there's no separation and consciousness, and they said that
(13:23):
years ago. But we would much rather believe in experiment
with twin photons than anything that appeared in the project
of permita years ago. But the other thing I can
tell you, which is the most interesting thing I know,
and what floats my boat these days, is that it's
no harder to describe something that happened in the future
(13:47):
days or weeks in the future than it is to
describe a hidden contemporaneous thing. So the future and the
distance are both available to the quiet mind and this
non local ability to know the future and the distance
of what we call remote viewing when we're talking about uh, this,
(14:11):
this sort of process. Entanglement may sound strange, but entanglement
is proven. And this gets us into well some of
the history of the involvement of the of the CIA
and other scientists, not just in the US, but around
the world. One thing that we picked up here when
(14:35):
we were watching Third Eye Spies and then also when
we're looking in some uh, some earlier stories of your work,
we found that a lot of this research occurred within
the cultural context of the Cold War, and one of
the most popular frames of thought, at least on the
(14:55):
US government side, was that the Soviet Union was not
just interested in similar research, but had already been conducting experiments.
Is that correct, and was potentially actively using it against
us to spy on us. It strikes me as almost
like a space race kind of situation, only in the
psychic realm. Yeah, would you would you say that? Correct? Yeah?
(15:16):
The American book by Ostrander and Schroeder, these two journalists
Wroder book in seventy called Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain,
and they revealed a lot of the work that was
going out on the Soviet Union. This is non classified work,
of course, but one of the experiments that we can
(15:36):
verify because we know one of the participants now, the
risk of Alanskaya was a Russian physicist who eventually worked
with us. Was present when they did a long distance
strangulation experiment where one fellow was in Moscow and his
best friend was in Leningrad hooked up to bio our
(15:57):
technology so that when love in Moscow was told, now
try and get the attention of your friend in the lab,
and Lennon grad he said, well, one way to get
an attention is to strangle him. And this is Russian thinking,
of course, and they carry out. Larissa was with the
guy at Moscow and she said, they carried out the
(16:19):
experiment until the guy and learning we had fell office
chair at near death. And didn't he also lose consciousness
at some point? Yes, he did. He with all like
he was near death. It was almost the end of
his life. And so the difference between the Russian experiments
(16:40):
and the American experiments is that my interest is in
flowing information. He had, Remember this was legally blind person
you're talking to, I'm always interested in getting more information.
So my pitch, my interest and the CIA's prince interest
was how can we learn what's going on in distant places?
(17:04):
And the Russians interest is how can we affect somebody
in a distant place. Can we embarrass an American leader
while it's giving a talk and we confuse his mind
at a distance And the answer is probably yes. So
it's almost weaponization versus information technology in terms of the purpose.
(17:24):
And one one thing that is fascinating about this is
the way in which the CIA began to take interest
in your work. From from what we understand, there were
experiments wherein UH one or more people would learn specific
(17:47):
information in one case special access code names UH in
another case, as you have mentioned, you know submarines, although
they were already involved at that point. When when did
the CIA come to your group directly with with regards
with this. Did they pitch you or I went to
(18:10):
the C I A. I had done laser stuff for
the CIA in my earlier incarnations a laser scientist, so
I was I was prepared now after my nice meeting
with Van Brown and Jim Fletcher and the promise of dough,
I was prepared to play my other card and go
to the CIA and say, can we get some support
(18:34):
for teaching people how to actually use this ability? And
Kid Green, who are the head of Life Science division
at that time, said, well, something we could do. How
how about we give you geographical coordinates and you can
describe what's there, and I'll give you coordinates of something
(18:54):
that I don't know. So it's a double blind experiment.
And Pat Price, who is of our great psychics, retired
Police Commissioner Price said, it looks to me that these
coordinates pertained to some kind of military base. I see
a microwave antenna and their big roll updoors. If I
(19:15):
go in, there a lot of activity at lower levels,
the whole row of filing cabinets, and this place is
called rack up, and it's all all the programs are
named like eight Paul and Cuball and so forth. They
all have Billiard names. And he wrote down a bunch
(19:35):
of those, and I delivered those two Kid Green. That
was our our program, of our deliverable is a picture
of this radar site and the name of the programs,
a picture that he had drawn, that the Price had drawn,
And that wasn't at all what Kid expected. Because the
(19:56):
kid then went to his buddy who gave him the
coordinates and it was the Lucked cabin. But because Ingo Swan,
another psychic in our lab. In fact, Swan is the
one who taught us how to do remote viewing. Swan
had drawn things very similar to Pat Price. And the
reason that Kid Green wanted to pursue this is that
(20:18):
both psychics threw the same thing. So he drove up
towards the cabin there was the ostensible target, and a
hundred meters past the cabin there was this military facility
which is called Sugar Grove, a highly classified National Security
Agency listening post. But kid of course has all the credentials,
(20:41):
so he could go anywhere, and he went in there,
drove around, saw what they had talked to the management
that you knew anything about these funny names that the
psychic gave us, and all hell brokers because of what
Pat Price has described were top secret codein aimes of
ongoing programs listening to Russian microwave transmissions. So the thing
(21:08):
that we had penetrated accidentally was one of the most
secret things in America, namely a n S, a crypto
listening post penetrated by two psychics in California, So that
caused a major freak out at the National Security Agency.
First of all, they were angry at Kid Green and
(21:29):
complained to their management at CIA, why are you guys
targeting our facility with a bunch of psychics, And Kick
Green said it was an accident. They missed the log
cabin and somehow zeroed in on your place. So we
went at a meeting at s r I where the
(21:49):
security people at ns A face path Price and said,
if you're so psychic, why did you look at our
place if you're targeted at a log cabin? And he did, well,
I was coming in at fifty feet and I looked
on and I of course saw the log cabin, but
I saw you're a huge spread of giant microwave dishes,
(22:12):
and I assumed that that must be what thereafter, So
I landed there and walked around and describe what I found,
and he said, you've got to remember that the more
attention you have on hiding something, the more it shines
like a beacon in psychic space. And that, of course
totally freaked out all these people overcome with security. That
(22:34):
was going to be the question, Yeah, how how did
they react. Did they did they immediately go into shock?
Did they did they assume that someone had leaked to
the location from their side or how did they handle this?
The first thing they decided there was a security league,
Except this is if there is almost worse for there
(22:56):
to be a security league than for for a psychic
to look in, because if you have a security league
where a top secret program in the basement of the
NSA has penetrated, then you've got a super major problem,
even worse than ESP And they decided that there was
no league. The n s A went away, and we
(23:19):
promised not to look in on them anymore and kicked
green at. The CIA then supported our program for many
more years. And that's how we wound up looking at
a Soviet weapons factory. We were targeted to look at
a Soviet site someplace in Siberia, and Pep I was
(23:44):
I'm always the in house person because I don't drive,
so in all the experiments, I'm the one sitting with
the dark, sitting in the dark with the psychic, and
I'm saying, okay, Pat, we got a new target today.
It's in Russia. No idea? What there? Uh? And he
quiet your mind and tell me what what surprising things
(24:06):
come into view, which is my magic words to launch
as pepro target. And he said, well, I'm lying on
a building in the sunshine, and the sun feels good
on my body, says he. And there is giant crane
rolling back and forth over me. Huge crane. It's a
gantry crane with four wheels on either side of the building,
(24:29):
rolling back and forth. This is such to me. I've
got to draw this crane. And he drew the crane
and the next day we brought that to Ken Creft
and Kit Crean and he's unrolled a photograph that they had,
a top secret satellite photograph and what place drew was
(24:52):
remarkably similar to the crane on the ground. Jeny were
shocked that he could. He could out of his head
had replicates this thing that was already marked top secret.
And of course we had clearances to see this. I mean,
part of the part of the evidence that are that
e SP was real is that my partner and I
(25:13):
had top secret clearances because the things we were describing
were verified by satellite photography. So this was this was
not game playing. We were uh serious contenders. So Ken
Chris said, well we We knew that that was there
because we had That's why we picked the site. What
(25:34):
we want to know is what are they doing underground?
What does this crane used? What are they building? And
Price set back and put in his glasses and said, well,
they're making a giant steel swear about sixty ft in diameter,
and they're building that out of gores like orange peel slices,
(25:55):
and they're welding it together. But they're having a hard
time welding it because of material. It was so thick
that the material is warping as they try and weld it.
And he drew a picture of the sixty ft gore's
sixty ft orange fields and then sketch of sixty sphere. Unfortunately,
(26:18):
the CIA then hired him away from US, sort of
captured him and took him from sunny California to Virginia
to be a contractor for the CIA, and Price mysteriously
died four months later. But the CIA had no idea
(26:38):
whether or not there were sixty ft spheres buried under
the Semi Pelletants weapons factory. But two years later the
factory was opened up and they rolled out two of
these giant six spheres exactly as Price drew them, and
in the photographs that we show in the movie, you
(26:59):
can see how they're put together with gores and Aviation
Week sent me those photographs, so fad I spies are
in our movie. This is the first place anybody could
ever actually see what these giant sphears looked like. And
Price was able to describe something that nobody in America,
(27:20):
nobody in the CIA knew anything about. That was because
it was buried in a secret rush of the site.
Esp researchers worry about did he look in the future
and describe his feedback And the answer is no, he
did not do that because he was dead before anybody
in the West, before he could get any place place,
(27:42):
got no feedback for the crystal clear description of his spears.
And will pause momentarily for a word from our sponsor,
and we're back now. One thing I really enjoyed in
the film is the way you take a lot of
(28:03):
these drawings and you overlay them over I'm assuming more
modern aerial photography of some of these locations, and sometimes
they line up in a very um affecting way, like
kind of creepy, for lack of a better term. My
question though, is at the time, this is just my
ignorance about the technology of the time, but were there
was there not that level of satellite photography available, like
(28:25):
how the underground I see, I see? And this was
the mid seventies. Right to the photograph we we the
c i A did have photographs of the big crane,
but that was already a tough secret photograph, very very
closely held, and they had no idea what was in
(28:46):
the building under the crane, what are they making? And
in fact, the reason for the exercise is could the
psychic describe the stuff on the surface at seven pets
And if we could do that, could they then reveal
what was going on at this huge weapons factory. And
(29:06):
there's one question that kept popping into my mind while
watching Third Eye Spies, which was the multiple occasions people
say that they that the program had support from various
branches of the government or intelligence or or the military,
(29:28):
but that the CIA seemed to be um for lack
of a better word, they seemed to be the ones
who were pushing the brakes. In your experience, Uh, we
totally understand. If that's something they can't be said on air.
What was it like working with the c I A.
I mean clearly the people in Third Eye Spies like
(29:49):
Christopher kit Green Uh. They clearly supported the project and
believed in the science behind it. But overall is an institution.
What was the c I like as a funding partner
or research partner? I was a co founder in ninety
two and I left in two when it became totally
(30:11):
classified and I could no longer publish anything that I
grew up in. My father was a distinguished New York publisher,
so I grew up in the purpose of life with
the pub right books, so and papers. So by two
I could no longer publish anything, and I felt that
my time in graduate school was not spent to be
(30:33):
a psychic spy for the CIA, but rather to understand
how our awareness could transcendence space and time and tell
people about it. But during my decade we worked with
John McMahon, who was the director of Intelligence at c I,
A a very smart guy trained as a lawyer, who
(30:53):
was totally on board with what we were doing and
very supportive. So the CIA has given a lot of
people a lot of problems, and killed a lot of
people and written a reprehensive organization, but they let us
do what we wanted to do. The deal we made
with John McMahon, head of Intelligence, is that we would
(31:15):
spend half of our time trying to understand psychic abilities,
and in that's direction, we would publish our findings in
Nature magazine and in English Distinguished Journal, and in the
Proceedings of the Institute of Electrical Engineers, which is which
is the which would be my traditional journal as a
(31:37):
laser guy. So we published a lengthy paper in the
I Triple A journal called Information Transmission under Conditions of
Sensory Shielding. From their point of view, that looked like
a microwave paper. No problem, and the Information Transmission has
happened to be esp But the CIA had a lot
(32:00):
of closed minded people there, but the guys we were
working it with were very supportive. Bob Gates became the
head of CIA, and he became the Secretary Defense eventually,
and he was on television saying that, uh, the s
(32:23):
R program did not provide any information that was useful
to anybody. And that was very shortly after the Army
group that I trained six Army intelligence officers to create
a Army Psychic Corps in Maryland. So the Army had
been became embarrassed at having to come to s R
(32:45):
I wherever they wanted to find something. So we had
recently found a downed airplane that the CIA couldn't find.
A Russian plane crashed in Africa, and the CIA couldn't
find it because it was in the jungle and the
photography doesn't penetrate the jungle. Of course, so ce IA
(33:07):
came to us and said, can do you think your
psychic could find this airplane in northern Africa? And we
worked with Air Force Intelligence who also had a psychic,
and between us we drew a little circle three mile
diameter circle between the river and the mountains to one
(33:28):
side of a village, and the CIA launched their helicopter
to our little circle, and as they landed in the circle,
they could see natives dragging big hunks of metal from
the river to the village, showing that they had already
found the airplane. So so a California psychic led the
(33:50):
CIA to find this airplane that they were unable to
find by any other means. In our film, and Third
Eye Spies opens up with Jimmy Carter talking about how
during his presidency, the most remarkable thing he had experienced
was the locating of a down rushan airplane by psychics
(34:11):
in California. And that's actually something that has an Atlantic
connection to Jimmy Carter being a native Atlanta. He gave
a commencement speech at Emory University. It's also featured in
the film where he I think the members of the
audience were able to submit questions and somebody mentioned this
programmer this quote that he had mentioned that he had said,
and he bringing that up at that point, which I
(34:31):
believe was in the nineties, um it caused helped blow
our cover. It caust some problems. Can you explain why
if that was already in the public record him saying that,
why was it such a big deal for him to
say it then? And like was it didn't create renewed
interest when at that point it becomes so classified And
it wasn't It wasn't in a public record until Jimmy
Carter said it. It was that the CIA knew that
(34:53):
we had found it because he founded for them, and
the remote viewing operators at Ford made knew about it,
as did we, But the public didn't know that there
was a extensive ESP program going on until Jimmy Carter
announced it on television. See I was missing. I misunderstood that.
(35:16):
I thought that he had said it previously, because the
footage in the film is more grainy and black and white.
I thought it was like a comment that he had
made a long time ago. But that's not the case.
He made it for the very first time in the
nineties at that Emery commencement, and that's what blew your
cover correct. Okay, So it's interesting that Robert Gates, of
all people, was the one who who said that he
(35:39):
didn't see some sort of significance, because wasn't Wasn't he
the same person who, as an analyst received the information
about the Russian sub and then called it a lucky
guess even though it was. Yeah, I mean he he
was on television line of the ass off saying that
we never said anything. Worth didn't give him any information.
(36:01):
They didn't know. Joe mcmonagal was targeted by the uh
Fort Meat organization that he worked with. He was one
of the seven or eight psychic I trained up Joe,
along with six other people. I wouldn't say that. I
would never say on the air that I taught Joe
(36:22):
how to be psychic. He he came to me psychic,
but I just showed him the moves for how to
do remote viewing and make use of this information. And
he became a prodigious psychic practitioner at Fort Mead, and
he was able to draw the sub he was targeted
on the building. There was a large building quarter mile
(36:45):
inland from the North Sea. They knew the while of
activity was going there and Joe said, well, it was not.
It was not a sub base. But Joe said, I
see them building this huge submarine. They're building us up
twice as big as anything I've ever seen, as more
than five feet long, and twice the width of an
(37:07):
ordinary sub as though they've stuck two subs together side
by side. So this is the biggest thing is that
it looks like a huge whale of a submarine and
they're gonna launch it in three months. And they launched
it in three months, and it was exactly what Joe described,
this typhoon class submarine. No one had seen. No one
(37:29):
in the West had ever seen anything remotely like there's
five fifty foot submarine that Joe drew in detail three
months before it was launched. And then and then Gates
was on the Ted Compo Show, saying that we never
I was with I was in the film I'm at
show that I'm sitting with Joe and he just says, uh,
(37:53):
Gates are just lying. There's no other way to explain
it because he knew about this and what he said
back to there was this lucky guess more with Russell
targ after we take a quick break to thank our sponsor,
and now we are back with more from Russell Tark.
(38:15):
I have a question, so um when when you when
you talk about being able to train somebody to do this,
and it sounds to me like almost a meditative process
that is akin to astral projection, I guess as it's
known in in the you know parlance of our time. Yeah,
I suppose so um. To me, this begs the question of,
you know, the nature of science versus spirituality and the mind,
(38:38):
the brain versus the soul, etcetera. Um, And this is
something that I think we've been dancing around a little
bit in this conversation, but I would love to hear
how you view those differences. We're still recovering from the Enlightenment,
the big contribution of the Enlightenment with the card who
was the author of the Terrible Mind Brain Sism. He
(39:02):
knew that there was survival after death, but he absolutely
wanted no part of science dealing with spirituality. And the
Church didn't want scientists creeping around with the nature of
the soul. There was a heresy for a person who
was not in the clergy to start incur inquiring about
(39:24):
the nature of the soul. And science was just coming
out from under the edge of spirituality with with with
Newton's laws and Copernicus and heard edge science. So the
separation between science and spirituality really came at that point
and became increasingly hard edged. Now there's these days you
(39:49):
have people like shrouding or saying, uh, consciousness is a
singular which there is no plural consciousness uh everywhere. And
Shortinger said the most important discovery in quantum mechanics and entanglement.
So quantum mechanics has really saved us from the sitism
(40:12):
created by Descartes, that is, it's now allo quantum mechanics.
The so called measurement problem that is also pioneered by Shortinger,
and the famous kath problem. The cat is neither're alive
nor not alive until you look and see that paradox
(40:34):
was invented two thousand years ago by a Buddhist dharma master,
Narco Juna, who said that most things are neither true
nor not true. But that's outside of what we're saying now.
But to answer your question, there had been a big
citism between consciousness research and physics research, and that has
(40:57):
mended itself largely now. Physics is very interested in the
nature of consciousness, so so work that we're doing now
might have been uh sinsematic fifty years ago, but it's
quite a choral these days. That's fantastic news because this
this reminds me of something else. To continue the thread
(41:20):
of schisms, of mending um and of learning and scholarship
in general. It seems that in some conversations UH certain researchers, professors,
UH learned people and so on are concerned about publicly
sharing their opinions on one sort of research or another publicly,
(41:45):
whether in audio interviews or in print. The crux of
the question here is where where is that hesitancy coming from?
Our researchers, perhaps intimidated? Do they think they may lose
funding or if they're professor, do they think they may
lose their position at their at their institute of learning.
(42:05):
And if so, is this a well founded fear? Is
it genuine? Is it exaggerated? Where does this come from? Well,
what Pluck said in about you're never going to convince
the old folks that quantum mechanics is true. You're just
gonna have to wait for them to die and the
new people will discover that it's true. Um and physics
(42:30):
universities people are still by and large, I don't want
to get tired with the ESP brush that the older
the older faculty is gonna tease or laugh at younger
people who are interested in ESP because still still not permitted.
But for people are working quantum mechanics, the idea of
(42:54):
consciousness research UH is quite appropriate that you could you
could go to my making this up now, but I
guarantee that if you went to the internet and look
for consciousness and quantum mechanics you would find hundreds of papers.
Is a hot topic at the edges of quantum mechanics
(43:17):
because you have the nature, you have the whole nature
of consciousness is UH for grabs. The consciousness is efficacious.
That's the That's the thing that UH people don't realize
is that they're one of those consciousness material or not material.
So I would say that consciousness is neither material nor
(43:40):
not material. It's it's a bad question because we know
that the thoughts of one person can affect the physiology
of a distant person. That is one of the most
replicated experiments in all of sp research is called diston
mental influence on living persons on living things. So you
can see somebody's sitting in a distant laboratory and on
(44:05):
a random schedule you're supposed to excite them or put
them to sleep, and then you can look at the
later time and their brain waves or heart rate will
show that when I was trying to excite them, they
became excited, even though they might have been fifty away.
So the fact that so consciousness is able to do stuff.
(44:27):
So let give a kind of physical reality to consciousness
because it's deficacious. It's not it's not an epiphenomena. Is
my consciousness is able to move the dial? So because
there my consciousness demands cognizant and a as a real
thing and not an epiphenomena. But we've come to see
(44:50):
how the fil film is about the true story of
c I A psychic spying. So we've come quite quite
away that I'm unreconstructed logical positives, that I grew up
doing experiments where I could lay the experiment desk of
the theory and say, here's what's supposed to happen, here's
(45:11):
what did happen. Do we know what's going on? So
I really believe in good experiments stronger than good theory
And say why did I Why? What makes you believe
in esp targ And I said, Well, after I left
s R I I started a group called Delphi Associates.
(45:33):
Forecasting changed in the silver market, and by the time
we got set up with a broker and an investor,
we thought that we understood how to do that. At
the end of eighty four, we made nine adventures into
the silver market to determine whether the silver goes up
(45:53):
a little, or goes up a lot, down a little,
or down a lot. And all nine of our forecasts
were direct spot on, I mean a hundred two dollars
and in there was a lot of money, and we're
on the front page of the Wall three Journal talking
about the psychic worm corner of the silver market. So
(46:18):
doing anything nine times in a row in life is remarkable,
and doing it in a four choice game up a
little up a lot, down a little down in a
lot is close to odds of one thousands. And that's
something people are listening to because, as as you show
in the film um, there have been people from institutes
(46:43):
around the world or countries around the world who have
traveled to attempt to learn these techniques, specifically uh some
Russian some some Russian individuals and groups. And this this
leads us to maybe one of the biggest questions that
people have listening to this, or biggest series of related questions,
(47:08):
why aren't there publicly working government assets doing this in
the field today? And also do you believe that there
may still be some somewhere out there government funded research
occurring along these lines, maybe not in the public sphere anymore,
maybe it went underground, or maybe they stopped. What what's
(47:31):
your take on this? Well, in the film and Third
Eye Spies, we have kicked Green on camera saying that
the best of his knowledge is still a underground program
at the CIA with people doing remote viewing. For example,
why wouldn't there be that The last effort that that
(47:52):
Price did at CIA was looking into the code room
in the Libyan embassy, and he was able to penetrate
that embassy, find the code room, enter it, and describe
it to the satisfaction of the CIA who had once
been there before. And I had trained up to CIA
(48:14):
operatives who came to us to see people were always
checked up on us to make sure there's no loophole
in what we're doing. So we had a man who
was mainly a lock picker and a woman who was
a mechanical engineer, both high level CIA operators who came
to our lab wanted to see how we're doing experiments
(48:35):
and then they wanted to do it themselves. So we
had to make sure that our protocol was as tight
and secure as possible. And both of them did highly
successful remote viewings of distant places that we would lock
them into our room and then tape the door shot
because we didn't trust them either. Then Hall and I
(48:58):
would go to some random place and both of them
were able to give exquisite, accurate descriptions of where we
were hiding. And Kitt Green said that in Pat Price's
last days at s r I, he was working with
these two highly trained CIA operatives doing remote viewing at
(49:19):
the CIA he said, according to his conversation with the
Director of Intelligence right now, and the film has made
uh that he believed that there's Joe remote viewing going
on in the basement of the CIA, and and why
wouldn't there be m hmm, unfortunately for for all of us,
(49:43):
especially for you, and I know, oh man, we had
like fifty questions here, but you know, I mean, podcasting
technically is an infinite medium, but we shood, we do
try to keep it a little bit tight if possible.
You can find the film at all digital platforms starting
nine o'clock tonight. That's perfect, fantastic and we highly recommend
the film. Both Ben and I watched it. It is
I plan on watching it again immediately. There's so much
(50:04):
stuff in there that we did not cover, which is
a good thing. So go see the film. You will
find out a world of information about this, uh, this
this entire kind of clandestine universe of psychic spies. Yes,
Russell Targ, thank you so much for your time today.
Russell Targ folks American physicist, parapsychologist and author, world renowned
(50:27):
pioneer in the field of remote viewing. And that's not
that's not our opinion. That's the opinion of the CIA
very much. So who again, are very hard to please.
So thank you so much for joining us today for
the show. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I'm
happy to chat with you. So we did not get
to a significant amount of the stuff that we wanted
(50:49):
to explore with Russell Targ today, but I have to say,
what a delightful conversation, what a fascinating story. It was
absolutely fascinating and just a delightful human being to talk to.
It's such an interesting combination of the love for the
metaphysical and the physical and his uh separation of the
mind and brain and soul. All of that is really
(51:11):
hit home for me. And he was so generous with
his time that even after we wrapped the interview there
were topics we wanted to explore more, and he was
just like, yeah, just call me, well, I'll come back,
So look for that. Yeah, so look for him to
return in the meantime. We don't have questions just for
Russell Targ of course not. If you know this show
well enough, you know that we always end with questions
(51:33):
for you. There's a lot of stuff that we didn't
get to in our initial conversation, but we want to
know what related topics you believe we should explore in
the future. We'd also like to hear your take on this.
Do you think esp remote viewing, clairvoyance, call it what
you wish? Do you think there is some sand to it?
(51:54):
And regardless of where you fall into debate, what do
you think the future of this research holds. I'm also
very interested to see for any of us listening who
live in the ivory towers of academia, have you ever
felt that you were intimidated or bullied away from conducting
a particular type of research and if so, what And
(52:15):
I had a question for you, Ben off Air, was
how is this different from some of the cold reading
techniques that we associate with mentalists and hypnotists that would
be um doing more of a parlor trick rather than
something like this that seems to really have some scientific
sand behind it. And you had a really good answer
for Yeah, So there are So there are two different
(52:37):
types of ways that someone who's perpetrating a fraud or
a hoax would convince their mark that they had psychic powers.
One way is called cold reading. Cold reading is when
you're fishing for things. That's when you hear someone like
what was that guy a few years ago, John Edwards
who say I could speak with the deck pick up artists.
Oh no, no, different, yes exactly. And he would say
(52:58):
he would say stuff like okay, I'm I'm feeling out
in the crowd, something with a J A Jeremy John
a J John John J. And they would they would
go around like that until someone says, yes, I know
someone Jeremy and then say, okay, there, I think they're
They like colors, right, they had a they had a
favorite color, and then they'll say their favorite color was
(53:20):
blue and they're like, yes, that's right blue. That's cold reading.
The second kind is hot reading. Hot reading is when
you straight up do research beforehand. You google our pal
Matt Frederick, you learn about his life, and then when
you meet him you pretend that you're getting a psychic impression.
This would be a little different the way that they're
explaining the the coordinate sending or remote sensing UH is
(53:43):
such that the person who is the interviewer. The role
Russell targ was playing was was legitimate on his part
because he did not have knowledge of where his associate
was taking people they had no pre determined understanding what
that location would be. So if he didn't know, he
(54:05):
could not cold read or lead the the person attempting
to remove you. But that all depends on whether or
not they had that information. It doesn't sound like they did.
It does not and adds something that I'm meant to ask,
but we just had so much stuff to cover that
it'd slipped my mind. But I think that's a really
good explanation. Who killed Pat Price? Noal well exactly again,
subject for another day. In the meantime, if you want
(54:27):
to reach out to us, you can do so on
our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy, where you
can post questions. And I think we're gonna start doing
a thing where we start like a thread for each episode,
or even let people know in advance what the next
episode is going to be. We've talked about doing that. Yep.
The episode thread should be out right now. So go
join our favorite part of the show, your fellow listeners.
(54:47):
In the meantime, you can find us on Twitter. You
can find our show on Instagram where Conspiracy Stuff Show.
You can also find me personally. I just had some
weird adventures with a snake I'm at ben Bolan on
Instagram and i am at Embryonic Insider on Instagram. And
if you want to call and leave us a voicemail,
try to keep it to three minutes if you can.
Otherwise you'll be asked to leave a second voicemail. But
(55:09):
you can do that at one A three three S
T d W y t K. It's like we're doing
an incantation of some common we do that. I like it.
And if none of that quite bagg your badgers, you
can reach us directly via an old fashioned email. We
are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,
(00:24):
and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel.
Our good friend and compatriot Matt Frederick is on adventures today,
but we will have someone filling in and you could
say they called me Ben. We are joined with our
super producer, Paul Mission Controlled Decans. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
(00:46):
want you to know a very trippy episode. This episode
is a trippy treat and it is something that's been
a long time in the worst because we've talked with
danced around this subject for years back as far as
the videos. I don't know if we danced around is
there Matt and I did this that time, you know.
And that's why I was such a bummer that Matt
couldn't be here today because this is something that's very
near and dear to him. So I hope we did
him proud with what you're about to hear him. Oh yes, yes,
(01:08):
we um. We are joined today by a very special guest,
the physicist parapsychologist and pioneer in the field of remote
viewing Russell Targ and Russell Targ has been instrumental in
UH in the way that we not just as people
(01:29):
but as governments understand the phenomenon they call remote viewing. Right.
He's perhaps best known in terms of this work for
his time with Stanford Research Institute, which I believe was
endowed by Stanford University and then spun off into a
completely independent entity in the early seventies. Targ got his
start in the hard science of lasers and then parlayed
(01:53):
that fascination with research and optics, and honestly, it was
an experiential thing for him to start because of his
faculties with his own vision, and he sort of took
that UH and turned it into this pursuit, lifelong pursuit
of being able to project yourself out of yourself and
being able to teach people how to do this. And
(02:13):
this is not a conspiracy theory. Dare we say there's
aspect of this that isn't a conspiracy at all. This
is has been declassified. Was a thing the c I
A participated in and funded actively. Long time listeners, you
will be familiar with many of the players involved and
certainly a lot of the phenomena involved. But today we
(02:34):
are going directly to the source. We recently had a
chance to sit down with Russell Targ ourselves, well sit
down in the podcast sense, and get a first hand
description of the evolution of s r I, the nuts
and bolts of remote viewing research, and possibly a look
(02:54):
into the future, although we say there's not much of
a difference. And Russell Targ was also instrumental in the
production of a film that is out now called Third
Eye Spies that goes into the history of his work
with the CIA. Some mysteries along the way that are
almost outside of the scope of this conversation, but I
think you'll see them in future episodes and more. And so,
(03:15):
without further ado, Russell Targ, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on the show with us today.
I believe one of our the first questions that our
audience will have will be a biographical or personal question. Uh.
You are a renowned physicist, parapsychologist and an author and
(03:37):
originally you uh you worked specifically with applications for laser technology.
To our audience, UH, the the idea of working in
that field and the idea of exploring what we would
today call ESP or remote viewing. Uh. They they seem
(03:58):
like at first plants two very very different things. Could
you tell us a little bit about what inspired your
exploration and experimentation with remote viewing. In the beginning, I
was a very verily defective person. My vision has lifelong
been terrible, so I was always doing things that could
(04:21):
improve my vision, and I got very interested in optics,
which is a natural thing for a usually handicapped person
to do. So through that I became what we could
call a pioneer in the development of the laser. I
was working on lasers before there were any lasers, so
I pursued that experiments with lasers laser communication, and I
(04:46):
wounded up building a ultra high power laser. But all
my life I was aware the psychic abilities were present
because as a kid I was interested in magic and
did pretend to magic on the stage. And when every
magician will tell you, I've talked to Melbourn, Christopher and
the Great christ Skin and they said, oh, yes, when
(05:09):
we're on the stage with the lights in our eyes,
we get the supplement our act with. Whenever sp comes
our way, and I had that experience also, so I
had the idea while I was doing laser work that
one of these days I would make a transition into
E s P work because I I was confident that
(05:32):
I could teach people how to get in touch with
their psychic abilities. So in my laser customer invited me
to a conference on speculative technology off the shore of Virginia,
and at that meeting I had a seven diputs run
in with Werner von Brown, Jim Fletcher, who the administrator
(05:56):
of all of NASA, and At Mitchell, who the astronaut
who just came to Earth. And together with my three
new friends, we outlined what a program investigating psychic abilities
would be and I took that to Stanford Research Institute.
So my first dough for ESP research was to build
(06:19):
an ESP teaching machine. And it just happens that that
machine I built is now available as a free application
called E s P Trainer for your iPhone. So I
got in. I got in business investigating psychic abilities through
(06:40):
my earlier development of an ESP teaching machine, and together
with support of NASA and also the CIA, we were
often running at Stanford. Because I had built laser stuff
for the CIA as well. So I had some credentials
with asked to end with the CIA so I could
(07:02):
propose this far out seeming program. And they knew that
I was a scientist who is already able to do
hard stuff and make it work, so they gave us
a small amount of money to start a program at
Stanford Research Institute. But so I have a question. So
for something like um ESP that even today sort of
(07:24):
exists for many in the speculative realm, where it's it's
difficult to prove, how do you take something like that,
especially when it involves funding and research dollars and eventually
government um And how do you prove something that too
many people is looked at a pseudoscience or as you know,
the supernatural. Well, there's there were ways to do that.
(07:46):
One of the ways I had, and I've written quite
a number of books describing how ESP worked with the
theory might be how you can learn to do it,
And of course that's not very efficacious. So I decided
five years ago to create a film making use of
all the previously top secret material we had. So I
(08:09):
made a film called Third Eye Spies, which shows people
doing psychic abilities looking for Soviet weapons factories, missing hostages,
Russian submarines. And the thing that makes our film unique,
makes it an event, is that we have on camera
(08:33):
the CIA contract monitors who oversaw our program. So we
have a CIS CIA scientist, Ken Kress, who is a
lifelong physicist, and Kid Green, who was the director of
the Life Science Division at the CIA, and these two
distinguished elder CIA operatives are on camera saying, as we
(08:58):
were polygraphed and we worked with Star and what he
said in this film is true. It really happened. So
unlike other films talking about ESP, where you have the
researchers or the psychics, here we have the guys who
paid for it. And you know, the CIA is not
(09:18):
easily amused. And we have these two distinguished CIA operators
on camera looking into the camera and said it might
be hard to believe, but we were there and it
really happened. So that's that's one. That's one way endeavored
to convince people that ESP is real. The other way, uh,
(09:42):
is to show them how to do it. So very often, uh,
we were trying to get money from the government to
do different kinds of things, and a government scientist will
come to our laboratory and say, well, we will show
can you show me what you guys are doing? And
in one instance like this, we had a visit from
the Under Secretary Defense Walter Lebert was a uh second
(10:08):
to the Secretary Defense at that time. Lebert came in
his helicopter clearing our parking lot and he said, okay,
can you show me something psychic? We've been supporting you. Now,
how do this work? And I said, certainly I can, sir. Well,
I'll just show you how to do it, which is
what I do. People come to the lab they want
(10:30):
to learn how to do resp and I show them
how to do remote viewing. So I said, the way
we do this, and your edjutants will go hide someplace
with my partner, how put off with some random location
in the San Francisco Bay area, and that's the target.
They've gone, some mystery spot, and I will sit with you, sir,
(10:52):
and I of course have no idea where they've gone,
but I will show you the moves to quiet your
mind and look for surprising images to pop into your awareness,
and then you will make a drawing of those surprising images.
And that's what we do. So he said, okay, I
(11:14):
if you tell me what to do, that I can
do that. He's a very senior scientist, accustomed to being successful.
And I said, all right, uh, they're at their place.
Now start drawing. And you see, you can't be wrong,
Dr Leberts, because only you know what your images are.
(11:34):
And I just want you to make a drawing of
what shows up in your awareness. That's surprising. And he
drew a kind of brick courtyard, circular courtyard with a
circular fountain in the middle, all bricks all the way around,
all bricks, so forth with fountain. He said, that's all
I got, the circular arrays of tears of bricks and said,
(11:57):
well that's fine. That's pretty surprising. And they came back
and then the four of us, the version, me and
the two travelers went to the place which were the
Arts Center, quite a distance from Sr. I, and he
got to see in real life what he had drawn,
and he said, well, that's pretty impressive that I didn't
(12:18):
even believe in this stuff. So what we know is
that remote viewing is an ability we all have to
quiet our minds and describe and experience what's going on
in a distance location and people can have that experience
and learn to quiet their minds and learn to do that.
(12:39):
And one of the most interesting things I know is
that remote viewing is a non local ability. Like much
in modern science, non locality is a very hot topic
pertaining particularly when when photons are electrons are separated at birth,
they remain attached. So if you have one of the twins,
(13:01):
the other one squeals, even though they're separated by the
whole universe. So the idea of non locality independent of
space and time is quite current in modern physics. It's
not it's not an occult idea anymore. The Buddhists, of course,
said there's no separation and consciousness, and they said that
(13:23):
years ago. But we would much rather believe in experiment
with twin photons than anything that appeared in the project
of permita years ago. But the other thing I can
tell you, which is the most interesting thing I know,
and what floats my boat these days, is that it's
no harder to describe something that happened in the future
(13:47):
days or weeks in the future than it is to
describe a hidden contemporaneous thing. So the future and the
distance are both available to the quiet mind and this
non local ability to know the future and the distance
of what we call remote viewing when we're talking about uh, this,
(14:11):
this sort of process. Entanglement may sound strange, but entanglement
is proven. And this gets us into well some of
the history of the involvement of the of the CIA
and other scientists, not just in the US, but around
the world. One thing that we picked up here when
(14:35):
we were watching Third Eye Spies and then also when
we're looking in some uh, some earlier stories of your work,
we found that a lot of this research occurred within
the cultural context of the Cold War, and one of
the most popular frames of thought, at least on the
(14:55):
US government side, was that the Soviet Union was not
just interested in similar research, but had already been conducting experiments.
Is that correct, and was potentially actively using it against
us to spy on us. It strikes me as almost
like a space race kind of situation, only in the
psychic realm. Yeah, would you would you say that? Correct? Yeah?
(15:16):
The American book by Ostrander and Schroeder, these two journalists
Wroder book in seventy called Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain,
and they revealed a lot of the work that was
going out on the Soviet Union. This is non classified work,
of course, but one of the experiments that we can
(15:36):
verify because we know one of the participants now, the
risk of Alanskaya was a Russian physicist who eventually worked
with us. Was present when they did a long distance
strangulation experiment where one fellow was in Moscow and his
best friend was in Leningrad hooked up to bio our
(15:57):
technology so that when love in Moscow was told, now
try and get the attention of your friend in the lab,
and Lennon grad he said, well, one way to get
an attention is to strangle him. And this is Russian thinking,
of course, and they carry out. Larissa was with the
guy at Moscow and she said, they carried out the
(16:19):
experiment until the guy and learning we had fell office
chair at near death. And didn't he also lose consciousness
at some point? Yes, he did. He with all like
he was near death. It was almost the end of
his life. And so the difference between the Russian experiments
(16:40):
and the American experiments is that my interest is in
flowing information. He had, Remember this was legally blind person
you're talking to, I'm always interested in getting more information.
So my pitch, my interest and the CIA's prince interest
was how can we learn what's going on in distant places?
(17:04):
And the Russians interest is how can we affect somebody
in a distant place. Can we embarrass an American leader
while it's giving a talk and we confuse his mind
at a distance And the answer is probably yes. So
it's almost weaponization versus information technology in terms of the purpose.
(17:24):
And one one thing that is fascinating about this is
the way in which the CIA began to take interest
in your work. From from what we understand, there were
experiments wherein UH one or more people would learn specific
(17:47):
information in one case special access code names UH in
another case, as you have mentioned, you know submarines, although
they were already involved at that point. When when did
the CIA come to your group directly with with regards
with this. Did they pitch you or I went to
(18:10):
the C I A. I had done laser stuff for
the CIA in my earlier incarnations a laser scientist, so
I was I was prepared now after my nice meeting
with Van Brown and Jim Fletcher and the promise of dough,
I was prepared to play my other card and go
to the CIA and say, can we get some support
(18:34):
for teaching people how to actually use this ability? And
Kid Green, who are the head of Life Science division
at that time, said, well, something we could do. How
how about we give you geographical coordinates and you can
describe what's there, and I'll give you coordinates of something
(18:54):
that I don't know. So it's a double blind experiment.
And Pat Price, who is of our great psychics, retired
Police Commissioner Price said, it looks to me that these
coordinates pertained to some kind of military base. I see
a microwave antenna and their big roll updoors. If I
(19:15):
go in, there a lot of activity at lower levels,
the whole row of filing cabinets, and this place is
called rack up, and it's all all the programs are
named like eight Paul and Cuball and so forth. They
all have Billiard names. And he wrote down a bunch
(19:35):
of those, and I delivered those two Kid Green. That
was our our program, of our deliverable is a picture
of this radar site and the name of the programs,
a picture that he had drawn, that the Price had drawn,
And that wasn't at all what Kid expected. Because the
(19:56):
kid then went to his buddy who gave him the
coordinates and it was the Lucked cabin. But because Ingo Swan,
another psychic in our lab. In fact, Swan is the
one who taught us how to do remote viewing. Swan
had drawn things very similar to Pat Price. And the
reason that Kid Green wanted to pursue this is that
(20:18):
both psychics threw the same thing. So he drove up
towards the cabin there was the ostensible target, and a
hundred meters past the cabin there was this military facility
which is called Sugar Grove, a highly classified National Security
Agency listening post. But kid of course has all the credentials,
(20:41):
so he could go anywhere, and he went in there,
drove around, saw what they had talked to the management
that you knew anything about these funny names that the
psychic gave us, and all hell brokers because of what
Pat Price has described were top secret codein aimes of
ongoing programs listening to Russian microwave transmissions. So the thing
(21:08):
that we had penetrated accidentally was one of the most
secret things in America, namely a n S, a crypto
listening post penetrated by two psychics in California, So that
caused a major freak out at the National Security Agency.
First of all, they were angry at Kid Green and
(21:29):
complained to their management at CIA, why are you guys
targeting our facility with a bunch of psychics, And Kick
Green said it was an accident. They missed the log
cabin and somehow zeroed in on your place. So we
went at a meeting at s r I where the
(21:49):
security people at ns A face path Price and said,
if you're so psychic, why did you look at our
place if you're targeted at a log cabin? And he did, well,
I was coming in at fifty feet and I looked
on and I of course saw the log cabin, but
I saw you're a huge spread of giant microwave dishes,
(22:12):
and I assumed that that must be what thereafter, So
I landed there and walked around and describe what I found,
and he said, you've got to remember that the more
attention you have on hiding something, the more it shines
like a beacon in psychic space. And that, of course
totally freaked out all these people overcome with security. That
(22:34):
was going to be the question, Yeah, how how did
they react. Did they did they immediately go into shock?
Did they did they assume that someone had leaked to
the location from their side or how did they handle this?
The first thing they decided there was a security league,
Except this is if there is almost worse for there
(22:56):
to be a security league than for for a psychic
to look in, because if you have a security league
where a top secret program in the basement of the
NSA has penetrated, then you've got a super major problem,
even worse than ESP And they decided that there was
no league. The n s A went away, and we
(23:19):
promised not to look in on them anymore and kicked
green at. The CIA then supported our program for many
more years. And that's how we wound up looking at
a Soviet weapons factory. We were targeted to look at
a Soviet site someplace in Siberia, and Pep I was
(23:44):
I'm always the in house person because I don't drive,
so in all the experiments, I'm the one sitting with
the dark, sitting in the dark with the psychic, and
I'm saying, okay, Pat, we got a new target today.
It's in Russia. No idea? What there? Uh? And he
quiet your mind and tell me what what surprising things
(24:06):
come into view, which is my magic words to launch
as pepro target. And he said, well, I'm lying on
a building in the sunshine, and the sun feels good
on my body, says he. And there is giant crane
rolling back and forth over me. Huge crane. It's a
gantry crane with four wheels on either side of the building,
(24:29):
rolling back and forth. This is such to me. I've
got to draw this crane. And he drew the crane
and the next day we brought that to Ken Creft
and Kit Crean and he's unrolled a photograph that they had,
a top secret satellite photograph and what place drew was
(24:52):
remarkably similar to the crane on the ground. Jeny were
shocked that he could. He could out of his head
had replicates this thing that was already marked top secret.
And of course we had clearances to see this. I mean,
part of the part of the evidence that are that
e SP was real is that my partner and I
(25:13):
had top secret clearances because the things we were describing
were verified by satellite photography. So this was this was
not game playing. We were uh serious contenders. So Ken
Chris said, well we We knew that that was there
because we had That's why we picked the site. What
(25:34):
we want to know is what are they doing underground?
What does this crane used? What are they building? And
Price set back and put in his glasses and said, well,
they're making a giant steel swear about sixty ft in diameter,
and they're building that out of gores like orange peel slices,
(25:55):
and they're welding it together. But they're having a hard
time welding it because of material. It was so thick
that the material is warping as they try and weld it.
And he drew a picture of the sixty ft gore's
sixty ft orange fields and then sketch of sixty sphere. Unfortunately,
(26:18):
the CIA then hired him away from US, sort of
captured him and took him from sunny California to Virginia
to be a contractor for the CIA, and Price mysteriously
died four months later. But the CIA had no idea
(26:38):
whether or not there were sixty ft spheres buried under
the Semi Pelletants weapons factory. But two years later the
factory was opened up and they rolled out two of
these giant six spheres exactly as Price drew them, and
in the photographs that we show in the movie, you
(26:59):
can see how they're put together with gores and Aviation
Week sent me those photographs, so fad I spies are
in our movie. This is the first place anybody could
ever actually see what these giant sphears looked like. And
Price was able to describe something that nobody in America,
(27:20):
nobody in the CIA knew anything about. That was because
it was buried in a secret rush of the site.
Esp researchers worry about did he look in the future
and describe his feedback And the answer is no, he
did not do that because he was dead before anybody
in the West, before he could get any place place,
(27:42):
got no feedback for the crystal clear description of his spears.
And will pause momentarily for a word from our sponsor,
and we're back now. One thing I really enjoyed in
the film is the way you take a lot of
(28:03):
these drawings and you overlay them over I'm assuming more
modern aerial photography of some of these locations, and sometimes
they line up in a very um affecting way, like
kind of creepy, for lack of a better term. My
question though, is at the time, this is just my
ignorance about the technology of the time, but were there
was there not that level of satellite photography available, like
(28:25):
how the underground I see, I see? And this was
the mid seventies. Right to the photograph we we the
c i A did have photographs of the big crane,
but that was already a tough secret photograph, very very
closely held, and they had no idea what was in
(28:46):
the building under the crane, what are they making? And
in fact, the reason for the exercise is could the
psychic describe the stuff on the surface at seven pets
And if we could do that, could they then reveal
what was going on at this huge weapons factory. And
(29:06):
there's one question that kept popping into my mind while
watching Third Eye Spies, which was the multiple occasions people
say that they that the program had support from various
branches of the government or intelligence or or the military,
(29:28):
but that the CIA seemed to be um for lack
of a better word, they seemed to be the ones
who were pushing the brakes. In your experience, Uh, we
totally understand. If that's something they can't be said on air.
What was it like working with the c I A.
I mean clearly the people in Third Eye Spies like
(29:49):
Christopher kit Green Uh. They clearly supported the project and
believed in the science behind it. But overall is an institution.
What was the c I like as a funding partner
or research partner? I was a co founder in ninety
two and I left in two when it became totally
(30:11):
classified and I could no longer publish anything that I
grew up in. My father was a distinguished New York publisher,
so I grew up in the purpose of life with
the pub right books, so and papers. So by two
I could no longer publish anything, and I felt that
my time in graduate school was not spent to be
(30:33):
a psychic spy for the CIA, but rather to understand
how our awareness could transcendence space and time and tell
people about it. But during my decade we worked with
John McMahon, who was the director of Intelligence at c I,
A a very smart guy trained as a lawyer, who
(30:53):
was totally on board with what we were doing and
very supportive. So the CIA has given a lot of
people a lot of problems, and killed a lot of
people and written a reprehensive organization, but they let us
do what we wanted to do. The deal we made
with John McMahon, head of Intelligence, is that we would
(31:15):
spend half of our time trying to understand psychic abilities,
and in that's direction, we would publish our findings in
Nature magazine and in English Distinguished Journal, and in the
Proceedings of the Institute of Electrical Engineers, which is which
is the which would be my traditional journal as a
(31:37):
laser guy. So we published a lengthy paper in the
I Triple A journal called Information Transmission under Conditions of
Sensory Shielding. From their point of view, that looked like
a microwave paper. No problem, and the Information Transmission has
happened to be esp But the CIA had a lot
(32:00):
of closed minded people there, but the guys we were
working it with were very supportive. Bob Gates became the
head of CIA, and he became the Secretary Defense eventually,
and he was on television saying that, uh, the s
(32:23):
R program did not provide any information that was useful
to anybody. And that was very shortly after the Army
group that I trained six Army intelligence officers to create
a Army Psychic Corps in Maryland. So the Army had
been became embarrassed at having to come to s R
(32:45):
I wherever they wanted to find something. So we had
recently found a downed airplane that the CIA couldn't find.
A Russian plane crashed in Africa, and the CIA couldn't
find it because it was in the jungle and the
photography doesn't penetrate the jungle. Of course, so ce IA
(33:07):
came to us and said, can do you think your
psychic could find this airplane in northern Africa? And we
worked with Air Force Intelligence who also had a psychic,
and between us we drew a little circle three mile
diameter circle between the river and the mountains to one
(33:28):
side of a village, and the CIA launched their helicopter
to our little circle, and as they landed in the circle,
they could see natives dragging big hunks of metal from
the river to the village, showing that they had already
found the airplane. So so a California psychic led the
(33:50):
CIA to find this airplane that they were unable to
find by any other means. In our film, and Third
Eye Spies opens up with Jimmy Carter talking about how
during his presidency, the most remarkable thing he had experienced
was the locating of a down rushan airplane by psychics
(34:11):
in California. And that's actually something that has an Atlantic
connection to Jimmy Carter being a native Atlanta. He gave
a commencement speech at Emory University. It's also featured in
the film where he I think the members of the
audience were able to submit questions and somebody mentioned this
programmer this quote that he had mentioned that he had said,
and he bringing that up at that point, which I
(34:31):
believe was in the nineties, um it caused helped blow
our cover. It caust some problems. Can you explain why
if that was already in the public record him saying that,
why was it such a big deal for him to
say it then? And like was it didn't create renewed
interest when at that point it becomes so classified And
it wasn't It wasn't in a public record until Jimmy
Carter said it. It was that the CIA knew that
(34:53):
we had found it because he founded for them, and
the remote viewing operators at Ford made knew about it,
as did we, But the public didn't know that there
was a extensive ESP program going on until Jimmy Carter
announced it on television. See I was missing. I misunderstood that.
(35:16):
I thought that he had said it previously, because the
footage in the film is more grainy and black and white.
I thought it was like a comment that he had
made a long time ago. But that's not the case.
He made it for the very first time in the
nineties at that Emery commencement, and that's what blew your
cover correct. Okay, So it's interesting that Robert Gates, of
all people, was the one who who said that he
(35:39):
didn't see some sort of significance, because wasn't Wasn't he
the same person who, as an analyst received the information
about the Russian sub and then called it a lucky
guess even though it was. Yeah, I mean he he
was on television line of the ass off saying that
we never said anything. Worth didn't give him any information.
(36:01):
They didn't know. Joe mcmonagal was targeted by the uh
Fort Meat organization that he worked with. He was one
of the seven or eight psychic I trained up Joe,
along with six other people. I wouldn't say that. I
would never say on the air that I taught Joe
(36:22):
how to be psychic. He he came to me psychic,
but I just showed him the moves for how to
do remote viewing and make use of this information. And
he became a prodigious psychic practitioner at Fort Mead, and
he was able to draw the sub he was targeted
on the building. There was a large building quarter mile
(36:45):
inland from the North Sea. They knew the while of
activity was going there and Joe said, well, it was not.
It was not a sub base. But Joe said, I
see them building this huge submarine. They're building us up
twice as big as anything I've ever seen, as more
than five feet long, and twice the width of an
(37:07):
ordinary sub as though they've stuck two subs together side
by side. So this is the biggest thing is that
it looks like a huge whale of a submarine and
they're gonna launch it in three months. And they launched
it in three months, and it was exactly what Joe described,
this typhoon class submarine. No one had seen. No one
(37:29):
in the West had ever seen anything remotely like there's
five fifty foot submarine that Joe drew in detail three
months before it was launched. And then and then Gates
was on the Ted Compo Show, saying that we never
I was with I was in the film I'm at
show that I'm sitting with Joe and he just says, uh,
(37:53):
Gates are just lying. There's no other way to explain
it because he knew about this and what he said
back to there was this lucky guess more with Russell
targ after we take a quick break to thank our sponsor,
and now we are back with more from Russell Tark.
(38:15):
I have a question, so um when when you when
you talk about being able to train somebody to do this,
and it sounds to me like almost a meditative process
that is akin to astral projection, I guess as it's
known in in the you know parlance of our time. Yeah,
I suppose so um. To me, this begs the question of,
you know, the nature of science versus spirituality and the mind,
(38:38):
the brain versus the soul, etcetera. Um, And this is
something that I think we've been dancing around a little
bit in this conversation, but I would love to hear
how you view those differences. We're still recovering from the Enlightenment,
the big contribution of the Enlightenment with the card who
was the author of the Terrible Mind Brain Sism. He
(39:02):
knew that there was survival after death, but he absolutely
wanted no part of science dealing with spirituality. And the
Church didn't want scientists creeping around with the nature of
the soul. There was a heresy for a person who
was not in the clergy to start incur inquiring about
(39:24):
the nature of the soul. And science was just coming
out from under the edge of spirituality with with with
Newton's laws and Copernicus and heard edge science. So the
separation between science and spirituality really came at that point
and became increasingly hard edged. Now there's these days you
(39:49):
have people like shrouding or saying, uh, consciousness is a
singular which there is no plural consciousness uh everywhere. And
Shortinger said the most important discovery in quantum mechanics and entanglement.
So quantum mechanics has really saved us from the sitism
(40:12):
created by Descartes, that is, it's now allo quantum mechanics.
The so called measurement problem that is also pioneered by Shortinger,
and the famous kath problem. The cat is neither're alive
nor not alive until you look and see that paradox
(40:34):
was invented two thousand years ago by a Buddhist dharma master,
Narco Juna, who said that most things are neither true
nor not true. But that's outside of what we're saying now.
But to answer your question, there had been a big
citism between consciousness research and physics research, and that has
(40:57):
mended itself largely now. Physics is very interested in the
nature of consciousness, so so work that we're doing now
might have been uh sinsematic fifty years ago, but it's
quite a choral these days. That's fantastic news because this
this reminds me of something else. To continue the thread
(41:20):
of schisms, of mending um and of learning and scholarship
in general. It seems that in some conversations UH certain researchers, professors,
UH learned people and so on are concerned about publicly
sharing their opinions on one sort of research or another publicly,
(41:45):
whether in audio interviews or in print. The crux of
the question here is where where is that hesitancy coming from?
Our researchers, perhaps intimidated? Do they think they may lose
funding or if they're professor, do they think they may
lose their position at their at their institute of learning.
(42:05):
And if so, is this a well founded fear? Is
it genuine? Is it exaggerated? Where does this come from? Well,
what Pluck said in about you're never going to convince
the old folks that quantum mechanics is true. You're just
gonna have to wait for them to die and the
new people will discover that it's true. Um and physics
(42:30):
universities people are still by and large, I don't want
to get tired with the ESP brush that the older
the older faculty is gonna tease or laugh at younger
people who are interested in ESP because still still not permitted.
But for people are working quantum mechanics, the idea of
(42:54):
consciousness research UH is quite appropriate that you could you
could go to my making this up now, but I
guarantee that if you went to the internet and look
for consciousness and quantum mechanics you would find hundreds of papers.
Is a hot topic at the edges of quantum mechanics
(43:17):
because you have the nature, you have the whole nature
of consciousness is UH for grabs. The consciousness is efficacious.
That's the That's the thing that UH people don't realize
is that they're one of those consciousness material or not material.
So I would say that consciousness is neither material nor
(43:40):
not material. It's it's a bad question because we know
that the thoughts of one person can affect the physiology
of a distant person. That is one of the most
replicated experiments in all of sp research is called diston
mental influence on living persons on living things. So you
can see somebody's sitting in a distant laboratory and on
(44:05):
a random schedule you're supposed to excite them or put
them to sleep, and then you can look at the
later time and their brain waves or heart rate will
show that when I was trying to excite them, they
became excited, even though they might have been fifty away.
So the fact that so consciousness is able to do stuff.
(44:27):
So let give a kind of physical reality to consciousness
because it's deficacious. It's not it's not an epiphenomena. Is
my consciousness is able to move the dial? So because
there my consciousness demands cognizant and a as a real
thing and not an epiphenomena. But we've come to see
(44:50):
how the fil film is about the true story of
c I A psychic spying. So we've come quite quite
away that I'm unreconstructed logical positives, that I grew up
doing experiments where I could lay the experiment desk of
the theory and say, here's what's supposed to happen, here's
(45:11):
what did happen. Do we know what's going on? So
I really believe in good experiments stronger than good theory
And say why did I Why? What makes you believe
in esp targ And I said, Well, after I left
s R I I started a group called Delphi Associates.
(45:33):
Forecasting changed in the silver market, and by the time
we got set up with a broker and an investor,
we thought that we understood how to do that. At
the end of eighty four, we made nine adventures into
the silver market to determine whether the silver goes up
(45:53):
a little, or goes up a lot, down a little,
or down a lot. And all nine of our forecasts
were direct spot on, I mean a hundred two dollars
and in there was a lot of money, and we're
on the front page of the Wall three Journal talking
about the psychic worm corner of the silver market. So
(46:18):
doing anything nine times in a row in life is remarkable,
and doing it in a four choice game up a
little up a lot, down a little down in a
lot is close to odds of one thousands. And that's
something people are listening to because, as as you show
in the film um, there have been people from institutes
(46:43):
around the world or countries around the world who have
traveled to attempt to learn these techniques, specifically uh some
Russian some some Russian individuals and groups. And this this
leads us to maybe one of the biggest questions that
people have listening to this, or biggest series of related questions,
(47:08):
why aren't there publicly working government assets doing this in
the field today? And also do you believe that there
may still be some somewhere out there government funded research
occurring along these lines, maybe not in the public sphere anymore,
maybe it went underground, or maybe they stopped. What what's
(47:31):
your take on this? Well, in the film and Third
Eye Spies, we have kicked Green on camera saying that
the best of his knowledge is still a underground program
at the CIA with people doing remote viewing. For example,
why wouldn't there be that The last effort that that
(47:52):
Price did at CIA was looking into the code room
in the Libyan embassy, and he was able to penetrate
that embassy, find the code room, enter it, and describe
it to the satisfaction of the CIA who had once
been there before. And I had trained up to CIA
(48:14):
operatives who came to us to see people were always
checked up on us to make sure there's no loophole
in what we're doing. So we had a man who
was mainly a lock picker and a woman who was
a mechanical engineer, both high level CIA operators who came
to our lab wanted to see how we're doing experiments
(48:35):
and then they wanted to do it themselves. So we
had to make sure that our protocol was as tight
and secure as possible. And both of them did highly
successful remote viewings of distant places that we would lock
them into our room and then tape the door shot
because we didn't trust them either. Then Hall and I
(48:58):
would go to some random place and both of them
were able to give exquisite, accurate descriptions of where we
were hiding. And Kitt Green said that in Pat Price's
last days at s r I, he was working with
these two highly trained CIA operatives doing remote viewing at
(49:19):
the CIA he said, according to his conversation with the
Director of Intelligence right now, and the film has made
uh that he believed that there's Joe remote viewing going
on in the basement of the CIA, and and why
wouldn't there be m hmm, unfortunately for for all of us,
(49:43):
especially for you, and I know, oh man, we had
like fifty questions here, but you know, I mean, podcasting
technically is an infinite medium, but we shood, we do
try to keep it a little bit tight if possible.
You can find the film at all digital platforms starting
nine o'clock tonight. That's perfect, fantastic and we highly recommend
the film. Both Ben and I watched it. It is
I plan on watching it again immediately. There's so much
(50:04):
stuff in there that we did not cover, which is
a good thing. So go see the film. You will
find out a world of information about this, uh, this
this entire kind of clandestine universe of psychic spies. Yes,
Russell Targ, thank you so much for your time today.
Russell Targ folks American physicist, parapsychologist and author, world renowned
(50:27):
pioneer in the field of remote viewing. And that's not
that's not our opinion. That's the opinion of the CIA
very much. So who again, are very hard to please.
So thank you so much for joining us today for
the show. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I'm
happy to chat with you. So we did not get
to a significant amount of the stuff that we wanted
(50:49):
to explore with Russell Targ today, but I have to say,
what a delightful conversation, what a fascinating story. It was
absolutely fascinating and just a delightful human being to talk to.
It's such an interesting combination of the love for the
metaphysical and the physical and his uh separation of the
mind and brain and soul. All of that is really
(51:11):
hit home for me. And he was so generous with
his time that even after we wrapped the interview there
were topics we wanted to explore more, and he was
just like, yeah, just call me, well, I'll come back,
So look for that. Yeah, so look for him to
return in the meantime. We don't have questions just for
Russell Targ of course not. If you know this show
well enough, you know that we always end with questions
(51:33):
for you. There's a lot of stuff that we didn't
get to in our initial conversation, but we want to
know what related topics you believe we should explore in
the future. We'd also like to hear your take on this.
Do you think esp remote viewing, clairvoyance, call it what
you wish? Do you think there is some sand to it?
(51:54):
And regardless of where you fall into debate, what do
you think the future of this research holds. I'm also
very interested to see for any of us listening who
live in the ivory towers of academia, have you ever
felt that you were intimidated or bullied away from conducting
a particular type of research and if so, what And
(52:15):
I had a question for you, Ben off Air, was
how is this different from some of the cold reading
techniques that we associate with mentalists and hypnotists that would
be um doing more of a parlor trick rather than
something like this that seems to really have some scientific
sand behind it. And you had a really good answer
for Yeah, So there are So there are two different
(52:37):
types of ways that someone who's perpetrating a fraud or
a hoax would convince their mark that they had psychic powers.
One way is called cold reading. Cold reading is when
you're fishing for things. That's when you hear someone like
what was that guy a few years ago, John Edwards
who say I could speak with the deck pick up artists.
Oh no, no, different, yes exactly. And he would say
(52:58):
he would say stuff like okay, I'm I'm feeling out
in the crowd, something with a J A Jeremy John
a J John John J. And they would they would
go around like that until someone says, yes, I know
someone Jeremy and then say, okay, there, I think they're
They like colors, right, they had a they had a
favorite color, and then they'll say their favorite color was
(53:20):
blue and they're like, yes, that's right blue. That's cold reading.
The second kind is hot reading. Hot reading is when
you straight up do research beforehand. You google our pal
Matt Frederick, you learn about his life, and then when
you meet him you pretend that you're getting a psychic impression.
This would be a little different the way that they're
explaining the the coordinate sending or remote sensing UH is
(53:43):
such that the person who is the interviewer. The role
Russell targ was playing was was legitimate on his part
because he did not have knowledge of where his associate
was taking people they had no pre determined understanding what
that location would be. So if he didn't know, he
(54:05):
could not cold read or lead the the person attempting
to remove you. But that all depends on whether or
not they had that information. It doesn't sound like they did.
It does not and adds something that I'm meant to ask,
but we just had so much stuff to cover that
it'd slipped my mind. But I think that's a really
good explanation. Who killed Pat Price? Noal well exactly again,
subject for another day. In the meantime, if you want
(54:27):
to reach out to us, you can do so on
our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy, where you
can post questions. And I think we're gonna start doing
a thing where we start like a thread for each episode,
or even let people know in advance what the next
episode is going to be. We've talked about doing that. Yep.
The episode thread should be out right now. So go
join our favorite part of the show, your fellow listeners.
(54:47):
In the meantime, you can find us on Twitter. You
can find our show on Instagram where Conspiracy Stuff Show.
You can also find me personally. I just had some
weird adventures with a snake I'm at ben Bolan on
Instagram and i am at Embryonic Insider on Instagram. And
if you want to call and leave us a voicemail,
try to keep it to three minutes if you can.
Otherwise you'll be asked to leave a second voicemail. But
(55:09):
you can do that at one A three three S
T d W y t K. It's like we're doing
an incantation of some common we do that. I like it.
And if none of that quite bagg your badgers, you
can reach us directly via an old fashioned email. We
are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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