April 30, 2025 • 58 mins
In modern English, we often say "don't shoot the messenger." As Ben, Matt and Noel discover in the first chapter of this week's special two-part series, diplomatic immunity is an ancient concept with real-world consequences in the modern day. So, is it true that various world powers have agreed to let some people exist beyond the rule of law? Tune in to learn more about diplomatic immunity, including why some argue it's necessary -- and why some believe it's carte blanche for crime, corruption and conspiracy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noman.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. Now, guys, I'm thinking for
the beginning of this we get into like, let's really
set the scene, Dylan Andrew. Could we get some kind
(00:51):
of like ominous you know, espionage music? Perfect? Yeah, No,
give us like you're great at this. Noom, give us
like a give us like a want to beat. Okay, okay,
(01:15):
I like it. I like it. Here we go. I
love a throat seeing. So we're setting the scene. A
fellow conspiracy realist. Let's say, Matt, Noel, you and I
have all gathered together. We're off the books. We're in
and out of the way cafe. It's a side street
in Vienna and uh, Noel, Matt, we're grabbing coffee. Uh,
(01:39):
whichever you like to order. Remember, there is symbolism involved.
So we're having a polite conversation with a well dressed, unremarkable,
middle aged gentleman. And we've all, you know, all four
of us have seen this guy here and there at
previous parties. He speaks with a refined pod Oxford tented
(02:01):
English accent. Yet we know him as a representative of
our friends in Moscow. In this conversation, which is polite
as pie, he speaks for Moscow. And so he comes
to us, Matt Nole and he he we're getting You know,
Nole's got cafe Olay, Matt, what kind of thing do
(02:22):
you get at a coffee bar?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Keeps barkeep? Yes, yes, I'll have I'll have one. Bailey's
in a shoe.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Okay, Bailey's in a shoe. Cafe Ola, h call me espresso.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
We're having this very polite conversation with this guy, and
he places two documents on the table. The first document
is a police report, and this police report, translated from Russian,
details a fatal car crash earlier that week, just that
week in Saint Petersburg. Turns out a US diplomat pulled
(02:58):
a hit and run after are colliding with a young
man on a motorbike. The second document shows a photo
that all of us recognize. It's a man that we
internally call John Smith. He's been held in Russian custody
for three years now. And this well dressed man putting
these things again politely on the table in this out
(03:20):
of the way cafe. He says, My friends, we can
all agree it's best to keep things collegiate. We are
at a wonderful time in our conversation, So why rock
the boat? Surely we can figure this out together.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Geez, yeah, I'll do whatever you say, buddy. That accent.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Is this story referencing the actual crash and death that
involved Harry Dunn.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Which we will get to. Uh, let's say, loosely inspired
by possible events.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Okay, wow, yeah we do? What do we do?
Speaker 4 (04:01):
It's not only for us to do. He's kind of
I mean, we kind of know where things stand, right.
Isn't that the whole idea that we're being strong armed
at this cafe amongst polite cohorts?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
But wait, who were we? Why is he telling us?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Are we We're uh, we're just some guys at a cafe.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Weird horses.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
So folks, welcome to our episode on diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Do you love me?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
I know it's a reference to Matt.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Okay, we all know it, just like we're at the cafe.
Yeah yeah, excuse me, uh Viennese server. Could we have
one more Bailey's in a shoe another cafe Oley and
espresso and my friend, Hey, would you.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Like Earl Gray?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Earl Gray? Sleepy time in a busy town.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Let's hit a quick sponsor break and we'll be back
with more on diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Here are the facts, all right, what is diplomatic immunity?
First off, you know, obviously it's I don't know. The
weirdest thing we can say about it is it's like
a cultural version of vaccination.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Can we also say a real quick right up front?
It's some bulls?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Uh yeah, yeah. It really does seem like that, especially
when you get into the real world. Examples that even
people like the State Department make YouTube videos to try
and explain, and when you watch them and you hear
the way local law enforcement officers are supposed to interact
(05:54):
with consulates and diplomatic.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Training video from the nineties, Matt, when you're describing this
I'm sorry, but feels yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Cool, but animated but animated yeah, Well, and you can't
show anything that actually happened or any of the specifics,
but you can just illustrate what happens in these situations.
So diplomatic immunity, what these things are trying to show, right,
is the literal immunity that certain individual human beings have
(06:21):
to the laws of a certain country they're operating in
because they don't live there, they're on a mission there there.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
To the rule of law. Yeah, it's it's at the
most basic level, it's the idea that certain human individuals,
due to their position in one government, will be holly
or partially exempt from the rule of law in another
government in another regime. So this guarantees basic stuff like
(06:53):
freedom and travel, safe passage in or out of a country.
And to this point, you know, obviously it's sounds a
little bit bonkers, like why are we placing some people
as automatically better than other people?
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Question, is this the kind of thing that the current
administration might start to put the kaibash on? It just
seems very anti their whole vibe.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well, as we'll see, there are a lot of conspiratorial
soft factors involved. That's an excellent question, and it's one
that people have wrestled with for no kidding millennia. History
has proven that concepts like diplomatic immunity are surprisingly ancient.
You can go to Indian epics like the Ramayana, you
(07:43):
can look through any number of examples in ancient Greece
and Rome. Cultures across the world kind of have this,
and across the chasms of time they kind of have
this loose gentleman's agreement or understanding that if you know,
King matt sends a messenger an envoy to the sultan null.
(08:06):
The thing is, no matter what kind of news is delivered,
the receiving sultan is not going to kill the messenger,
not going to kill that envoid. That's the origin of
the old saying, don't shoot the messenger.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Unless you're the mouth of Sauron, in which case you
get your head cut off.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
See, But guys Plutarch and Sophocles taught us about these
in the stories that they wrote, and one of the
primary ones that is cited often is this concept of
one I guess sultan or king or somebody at the
highest level of government in a country did that very thing.
We're got so angry at the bad news that was
(08:45):
delivered that he killed that person and then everyone was
afraid to share information to that king that was bad.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, I mean, I certainly think there's way problematic issues
around it that were going to get into, but in general,
it is sort of a guarantee that information can be
shared freely without fear of immediate retribution.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, and as always, let's go to the primary source.
I love you're pointing that out, Matt. The line that
stands out to me, and I think to a lot
of us is from Plutarch in his work Lives, where
he says the first messager that gave notice of Lucullus's
coming was so far from pleasing Tigrains that he had
his head caught off for his pains, and no man
(09:30):
dared to bring further information without any intelligence at all,
Tigrain sat while war was already blazing around him, giving
ear only to those who flattered him.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah. Well that's the point, right, That's kind of the
point of this, not the point, it's one of the
main points of the State Department, and a lot of
the stuff that exists under the State Department is to
intelligence gather That's what all of this is about. So
even as dipple mets are operating within the United States
and United States diplomats are quote operating in other countries.
(10:07):
It is this weird little game that we've talked about
in our spy episodes. It isn't exactly the same thing,
but it is directly tied to it.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
And as we'll see, there are other forms of immunity
that I think trouble all of us, especially with the KSA,
Saudi Nationals and some incidents in Japan where they absconded
with or they leverage state power and corruption to save
accountable from justice. We'll get to that towards the end
(10:38):
as well. I mean, like this is the great point.
It is not to say that everyone always respects this
loose agreement, especially pre Vienna. There are so many real
life horror stories about rulers who got bad news and
they broke a covenant. They didn't just murder the messenger.
They didn't just shoot the messenger. They would torture them
(11:00):
in brutal ways and then send pieces of the body
back as the message to that foreign power in general.
To the earlier point across the span of human civilization.
Everybody said, you know, this is dirty pool, this is
below the belt.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh yeah, for sure. Before we go below the belt, guys,
can we just quickly talk about town criers? Mm hmm, sure, yeah,
I think yeah, I think we mentioned it before. I
can't remember the context of the episode, but it was
kind of I don't know, mind blowing in a way,
but also makes a lot of sense that back in
(11:40):
the day, specifically in the United Kingdom, it was treasonous
to harm a town crier. I feel like we've talked
about this before. Yes, oh, okay, okay, I didn't. I
didn't realize that that we could. In a way, the
crier was the diplomat of the crown like that, coming
out to the people to speak right of the words
(12:01):
of the king or the queen or whatever.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
It's in theory an arrangement that benefits both the people
and the crown.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You know, it's the Twitter of the town, right, It's
the social media of the day. So if you have
a problem with what's being said and you kill the platform,
then now you have to find a new platform. So
there's logic to it.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, well, and it's a full affront to the person
who was making those statements, right, this concept right of that,
and that's the way I'm thinking about consulates and diplomats
now in this version, right.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, metonomy Like in our early you know, our opening
thought experiment, this Oxford accented man speaks for Moscow very
much is Moscow, and so the town crier is very
much the king, and so a relative of a sovereign.
Back in the cursed days of monarchies, the relative of
the sovereign is autonomy. For the sovereign is the crown
(12:58):
is speaking for and behalf thereof. So the logic being
that any injury or insults to that envoy is indeed
a direct attack upon the government or the regime represented.
You know, like it's so weird because this was incredibly
(13:21):
important back in the day. It was such a party
foul that the intelligentsia of the time would say, if you,
even if we don't have you know, modern laws, if
you break this agreement, if you kill the messenger, you
have violated divine protocols the gods. The gods should punish.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
It's an act of war at the very least, right.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yes, and happened very many times, especially as the kanate
expands through so much stuff, so many examples. We can
fast forward to modern diplomatic immunity. Let's call it nineteen
sixty one. There's a little town in Austria called Vienna.
(14:07):
They're known for their coffee shops. There's a thing that
occurs in nineteen sixty one, the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
This is still to this day, as we record on
April eighteenth, twenty twenty five, it is still regarded as
one of the bar nun top tier international agreements in
(14:31):
all of human history, because it says, look, even if
your countries are fighting, even if there is a regional
or dare we say, a world war, we're all going
to make a deal where you can send representatives to
respond to stuff, to propose some stuff, and you can't
(14:54):
kill them. You gotta let them get out. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, just this concept that we all need to be
able to talk first about whatever it is, whether it's
economic stuff, whether it's trading, you know, making some kind
of trade for prisoners, you know, all of these things.
We need to be able to talk at least before
we start firing weapons at each other. It's a great idea.
It is weird to me that it was written in
(15:19):
nineteen sixty one, but it wasn't officially entered into force
for three year well almost yeah, no, almost exactly three
years in nineteen sixty four. So it's and that.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
You aske didn't have a version until nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, So it makes sense though that I guess it
would take that long for enough countries to say, okay,
yes we agree when everybody else sends people to us,
will be careful with them and let them do whatever
they want, even though it's not It isn't saying that
these this the accords and this convention and everything. It
(15:55):
gets really close to saying people can just do what
they need to do in your country.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's it's very much like in personal experience. We won't
spend too much time on it. It's very much like
for anyone who's been to a college dormitory and you
have an RA or something where they resident advisors and
they say, look, I'm just a few years older than you.
We're all from different places.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
We all got to live together, like becoming the op
so quickly you know, it's all monitor right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Just don't make trouble, you know what I mean like
if you if you know, you might drink a little beer,
you might smoke a little pot, or just don't let
people see it and don't be a dick to the
other people in the door.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Maybe yeah, the one flavor of RA, but then you
also have the real hard nosed ones that everyone despises.
But you're absolutely right then, But.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
For me it goes even further. It's and and also,
I'm the RA, so I'm gonna need to do things
any that you don't need to know about. But I'm
gonna you know, I'm gonna be doing these things. And
you might even see me doing some of these things. Yes,
but that's that's if I do it, doesn't mean you
can do it.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
That's great because now our RA I love this example
because now our r R A is going to one
door room and saying, look, we all know this guy
came into your room and took a massive and he
did smear it on the walls. But there are factors
at play that are bigger than this.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
All right, Yeah, he doesn't have to clean it up.
That's just one of the rules.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Someone.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, sure, and we will also let me the RA
know that he did it, so you know, and I'm
aware that he did it.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
We all know. We've all seen his SpongeBob pants. It's
clearly this guy. So investigations continue. Yeah, this is this
is at heart a mission critical thing. This practice of
the concept of don't shoot the messenger, diplomatic immunity. It
has saved civilization from war and it has definitely saved
(18:14):
a lot of diplomats, add a lot of diplomats.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But it's made a lot of deals too.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
It's made so many deals. That's part of it. There
is very much an art of a deal. Unrelated to
the book, this is also a concept that all of
us found widely misunderstood in the modern day. I remember
when this came up and we decided to make an
episode about it. Maybe it was on air, maybe we
(18:43):
were hanging out. But the question is, is diplomatic immunity
really a get out of jail free card? But can
if you're powerful enough in say Foreign Ministry or US
State Department, can you actually get away with murder to
understand that we got to bust some myths it.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm already so uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yes, because we can get prosecuted. Yeah, like the three
of us, and.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
If I if I go into the Nordstrum somewhere and
take three thousand dollars worth of business jackets and stuff
them into a bag. This is this is an actual,
real example, and I walk out and the store says, hey,
(19:40):
you can't do that, and they call the police. I
go to jail for a felony. But some other people
might not.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
The thing's question, do they get to keep the stuff?
Speaker 3 (19:55):
All right, you said you were going to be cool man.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
I'm just asking, I'm just it seems like there has
to be a limit to this diplomatic community business.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
All right, Yes, and that's perfect. That's our first misconception,
and it's partially the fault of Hollywood and fiction and film.
Not every embassy employee the world round has some sort
of magical blanket immunity under the Vienna Convention of nineteen
sixty one, which again the vast majority of countries have ratified.
(20:28):
The laws of this magic getaway card only applies to
the top diplo dogs. So if you're saying one of
the it guys, massive apologies, you still have to pay
your parking tickets at some point, unless you're not really
an it guy whatever. So if you're a non embassy employee.
(20:50):
Right like, if we all just get a wild hair
and we say, hey, when's the last time we went
to Bhutan together? If we're just visiting a country, we
don't get immunity. And that's why, that's why it is
very important wherever you live, if you are traveling to
a different country, always check to see whether your country,
(21:14):
your origin country has an embassy or a consulate in
the place that you are visiting. Let them know your
travel plans if it is possible for you to do so. Yes, Yeah,
the US State Department is you know, we know folks
in there. They're doing their best kind of in an
(21:36):
uphill situation right now, but they will they will be
readily transparent with any concerns they might have.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Dude, let's really quickly. I think we've talked about this too,
but let's establish this as well. You will hear the
words embassy and consolate thrown around sometimes as the same thing.
It's synonymous, but they are not the same thing. An
embassy is the primary version of one state's operations within
(22:06):
another state like a host country. And then and that's
usually in like the capital city. But then the consulate
is there can be multiple consulates, and those are in
strategic areas for maybe economic stuff, trade stuff, or other
types of missions that might be happening within a host country.
(22:26):
But they're very interesting. You can look up both. You
can get in too the minutia of it. It's like
officially what they do, but diplomatic relations between the two
governments generally occur at the embassy. Consulate. Stuff often goes
into like the cultural.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Things, which is really interesting, Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Because that's where I don't know, I feel like that's
where that's where some of the Shenanikins can occur there
because it is there there they are the people. The
consulate is the place where the one on one stuff
happens between people who are visiting a host country from
the consulates country. That's where they interact often.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah, picture it like DMV or DDS. Our official line
is that for UH, for someone visiting foreign country, your consulate, UH,
your regional consulate is going to be the place where
there's a little window and you wait in line for
a former stamp. That is our official line to your point, Matt.
(23:27):
There are many cultural programs out of consulates, and there's
great time and care paid to those programs.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Oh yeah, I got Uh. Just, guys, I got invited
to a very interesting cultural thing for China recently here
through my son's school. That was very interesting. The way
it was worded, Did you go? No, I haven't gone yet,
but I might.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
What do you mean, oh, yes, can we crash?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
It's it's maybe yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Can you give us of the No, it's just it's
so language.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Did they give you the jimmies or something? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I didn't get the jimmies, I got the shakes. No, No,
I just it was one of those things where the
way it was worded specifically was so much in promotion
of China. It reminded me a bit of some of
the Shenyun stuff. But maybe from the state's side, does
(24:26):
that make sense?
Speaker 3 (24:27):
It does make sense such that I think I may
We're not going to say it on air, but I
think I may know what you're talking about.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
I think I might have gotten an invite too.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Also, there's a there's an International rud convention that occurs
every so often in Houston and Atlanta. If you guys
want to go.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
That sounds great, tasteful throws.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Speaking of speaking of tasteful throws. Here's the here's the
straight poop on this, and we're back. If you are
one of those top diplo dogs, you are an ambassador.
(25:14):
Usually in the US, at least typically, there's a mix
between lifelong career public servants, very high fluting experts on
a region, and straight up political hires. There are ambassadors
who might not even speak the language of the country
(25:34):
in which they reside. But if you are in that
rarefied air, you cannot be handcuffed, arrested, detained, you can't
even be prosecuted by law enforcement in the country that
you're working in. Caveat asterisk, caveat asterisk.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, dude, can I give a quick example of this? Okay,
So the State Department of the United States or the
United States State Department US sorry, or the US Department
of State. They have a YouTube channel, you guys, and
on that YouTube channel they posted this thing, and they
give an example of that I kind of already talked about.
(26:13):
It is the woman who was caught shoplifting three thousand
dollars worth of goods from a mall. The police showed
up and they said, oh, yeah, you have too much.
This is like too much money and goods. This is
a felony. I have to detain you like I have
to arrescue. And she said, well, she said no, this
is a real example the state department gave. She said, oh, no,
(26:36):
my husband is a diplomat. I have diplomatic immunity. And
everybody who has diplomatic immunity or supposedly has a state
department issued ID like a driver's license, but from the
state department. And she shows that to the police officer.
The police officer is required to make a phone call
that just goes to the state department and they say, hey,
(26:58):
I am confirming these numbers on the back of this
idea this person's identity, and the state department will say
yes or no to whether or not this person has immunity.
If they have immunity. In this case, the felony part,
the arrest cannot happen. The arrest cannot happen, so she
(27:19):
has to be let go and just go on her way.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Like, really, that's true, that is all true. Everything you
just heard is factual, folks. There are other misconceptions. That's
a high level thing. It doesn't always happen. For instance,
if you are the spouse of an administrative employee. You
may not have the same considerations and superpowers. People also
(27:46):
maybe confuse diplomatic immunity with the idea of that as
soon as you put your foot over the threshold of
an embassy, you are automatically on sovereign territory. That is
not quite true. You do not automatically get the rights
guaranteed in US law just because you made it past
(28:07):
the front gate. There are exemptions and exceptions to this,
to all of these concepts. Most notably and horrifically, I
think we've all seen the stories of North Korean refugees
escaping the Hermit Kingdom and getting by hook or by
(28:28):
crook to mainland China and then risking their lives to
get past those front gates for the r ok that
be South Korea to most Americans, or to the US
embassy or another friendly, friendly country, And you can see
terrible videos of Chinese authorities literally snatching these people by
(28:51):
the back of the neck as there as they're almost.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
To freedom by the scruss.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Just so, and if China catches these folks first, they're
considered not refugees but rather illegal economic immigrants. They're deported
back to a life of horror in the DPRK. So
there are exceptions, sort of like how for a long
time during the Cold War, United States standing policy is, hey,
(29:20):
we don't like illegal immigration, but if you are from
Cuba and you touch foot on the soil, we got you.
Not if you're Haitian, not if you're from the Dominican Republic,
but specifically, if you're from Cuba and you make that
ninety mile trek, then we got you. So there are
(29:41):
many exceptions to these ideas of immunity.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Oh for sure. And the State Department wants you to
know that just because someone has immunity doesn't mean they
have immunity of consequences for their actions.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
They're very they're very strict about this, and they say,
just because some nobody can't get arrested for a felony
they committed, doesn't mean that the State Department isn't going
to get a full detailed report of that incident, and
then maybe the embassy itself or the consulate or the
State Department will take action.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
That could mean losing your job at the very least,
right or getting stripped of your diplomatic you know, schrcial powers.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, you nailed it. There are consequences
because being exempt from like having diplomatic immunity in a
destination country or a country of residents, does not provide
diplomatic immunity in a country of origin.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
And let's just remember too that this all even comes
into play and stuff kicks in when you get caught,
well everybody knows, you know, and then it becomes a
potential diplomatic crisis or a pr night. There has to
be dealt with in some way, you know, to keep
the relationship between the countries, you know, in good standing.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yes, many variables, And I want to spend a second
before we move on to that idea of getting caught. Yes,
getting officially caught is not the same thing as the
polite conversation we had at the top of this show
in Vienna.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh absolutely, it's not the same thing. It's also getting
caught by a police officer that just lets you go
isn't the same thing as being caught in the public eye,
right if And and let's let's get to this next
point about diplomats and consular employees driving vehicles in LAS
(31:36):
parking violations, moving violations, driving traffic, motor violations.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Right right, Dy's as well.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, oh yeah, like this is a big This is
a real big deal. And we talked about it when
we were we went we went pretty deep into the
diplomatic relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia a
while back, and we talked about this a bit.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
But our previous episode, why does the US let Saudi
fugitives flee the country? We're gonna spend some time on
that later too. Okay, we recorded that in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Oh yeah, so not that long ago. Oh my god,
you can't believe for so far from twenty twenty already.
But this is this is a huge deal because, just
like that other example, the Statement Department goes into some
of these violations, including getting like anyone else in the
world would get a DUI if they were definitely intoxicated
(32:31):
and crash their very nice consular vehicle into a railing
and destroy their vehicle. But in that case, a police
officer cannot arrest that person for any of those things.
They just have to let them go and notify the
State Department.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
See the car, make the call. Yeah, this is a
third lighter misconception parking violations. It's a whole ridiculous bag
at badgers. We do want to recommend an excellent piece
from NPR way back in twenty eleven. Shout out to
the journalist Mark Memmett who points out that Washington, d C,
(33:07):
and New York City in particular are still quarreling with
various foreign diplomats and embassies regarding parking tickets. Now, if
you've ever been to New York City or d C,
first off, they're great towns. They're two of the best
towns in the entirety of the United States, and parking
(33:29):
sucks there. Parking is a hostile environment in DC. And
these folks have people, they have, you know, stuff to do.
Matters as state. It's ongoing. But the scary thing is,
unlike an average person, a non diplomat committing a crime,
every crime you commit in this role is negotiable. That's
(33:54):
where the danger lies.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Oh dude. In the example the State Department gave of
that dui dude. Who the dui dude? It was in Maryland,
by the way, right outside d C. I think in
Arundel County makes sense. It's where it all happened. The embassy,
his home country's embassy that's within the United States ended
up terminating his assignment and sent him home, and the
(34:19):
US State Department suspended his license that he got through them,
and they made him pay for this for his three
other violations, which I'm pretty sure we're parking violations as
you're talking about, Ben, But so so there are consequences
for these things, right, But it's not at all, as
you're saying, the same way that anybody else would get
(34:40):
would have to deal with consequences.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Right Right, it's a it's a different it's still a pop,
but it's a different kind and we're not going to
reuse that sound. C The other the other thing we
have to set up here is that this type of
immunity is not permanent, nor is it consistent. One of
the first things they really hammer home in DOS or
(35:02):
in any foreign ministry kind of employment regimen is the following.
Your origin country can always get a call and they
can agree to waive immunity just because you know you
are the high muckety muck for whatever Ottoman Empire is
(35:25):
in vogue. It doesn't mean the Ottoman Empire is required
to support you. They can get the call and they
can say, oh yeah, ah man, beat me here Dylan.
They can say, oh yeah, no, yeah, fuck that guy.
Put him under the jail. You can meet with consequences.
And it's all because despite the modern legalese and all
(35:47):
the accords and whatnot, this is still the ancient gentleman's agreement.
People are still just sort of handshaking on this thing.
And that should scare you.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Oh yeah, for sure, absolutely, just to get in that
idea that you put forward, been the idea that diplomatic
community has varying degrees, right, Because there's one last example
I want to put out here from that video. I'm
sorry the guys I got all hypes on this animated
(36:18):
State Department video. This one other thing.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
They're really good, by the way, everybody should check them out.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, you guys know the highway four hundred that goes
from Atlanta up north. Now, there's an example from Roswell, Georgia,
which is a town along that highway as you're going
back into the city, where a dude got pulled over
on August fourth. They didn't give it like a year.
I don't know why, but he was going ninety two
miles per hour on four hundred, which is a big no.
(36:46):
No police officer lights and sirens pulled the guy over.
He showed yep, he showed his State Department ID. It
got checked there via the phone number you call on
the back, and it was noted that this guy does
have diplomatic community. But the state department says this quote
the driver, as a consular officer, has immunity only for
(37:10):
his consular functions, so he had to appear before a
criminal court for charges regarding non official acts. So in
this case, he got cited for like unsafe driving and
like because he was going so fast over the speed limit,
which I believe is like fifty five maybe sixty five
right in that area. But he did have to end
(37:32):
up going to court for that for those charges. But
this is what the State Department finishes that with. This
is the case for most consular officers, but there are
some exceptions, So always call the state department, and that
is speaking directly to law enforcement officers.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Just check in and we'll get to that point about
official versus personal duties as well. Well. We got to
hit you with here, folks, is that there are obviously
a lot of loopholes, caveats, soft variables, asterisk so on.
As a result, it is sadly not surprising that the
concept of diplomatic immunity has been corrupted, conspired with, leveraged,
(38:15):
and abused. And that's what we're looking at tonight. We're
going to take a break for a word from our sponsors,
and then we'll ask what happens when this immunity goes wrong?
Years where it gets crazy? All right? First type of
(38:37):
corruption with this the funniest one. We have it in
the notes as uh, screw you guys.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's about right.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, So what happens though? What is screw you guys
as the first type of corruption? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (38:54):
I think it's relatively self explanatory. In some cases, when
a foreign government and gets into a situation involving diplomatic community,
they may just decide to ignore the rules of that
country that their person is deployed in. So this is
once again kind of a callback to some of those
(39:15):
ancient examples of don't kill the messenger diplomatic community, you know,
one point zero. So, just as there were warlords of
the time who might slice the head off of someone
bringing some particularly unwelcome news and send that head back
to the rival rulers as a sign of their displeasure.
(39:37):
Dare we say an act of war. More modern governments,
you know, have exercised a slightly less dramatic, but equally
fu form of violating terms of the Vienna Convention numerous times.
This has happened over the course of more modern history.
It often happens during periods of international or regional dispute,
(40:01):
particularly when there is something of an uprising or a revolution.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, pre war and during war, that's when the paranoia
gets its worst.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
I mean, technically, isn't all time not during war?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Pre war you know that's good? Or post war? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Yeah, post war is another form of pre war. As
we know, it's common.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, but you don't kill them in post war. That's
when you.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Watch it, when you try to be nice and make agreements.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Nuremberg has entered the chat. The idea is, I would
argue human civilization is in a toxic relationship with itself. Yes,
just a few periods in between violence. What I love
about the example you're setting out there, Nolu. The anecdote
of warlords of old deciding or choosing how they send
(40:53):
their reply or their message. It reminds me of the
old joke I don't know a familiar with this is
with a lot of people. But uh, the old joke
goes the guy, one of the court members opens the
box that has returned from the connet and they find
human head with the word no written on it, and
(41:17):
they really need the know's. Yeah no, it's it's insult injury,
they said, your highness, I believe the con has replied, Yeah, yeah,
with revolutions. We got two examples that will be helpful
here and hopefully uh memorable to all of us playing
(41:39):
along tonight. Them then receiving a head in a box, Well,
we're not going to send heads. I don't think we
have it in the budget.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
They are quite pricey, especially they're really photo realistic looking
fake ones.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Pinkies exclusively, yeah or pinky toes mm toes, very very much,
in my opinion, an overrated part of Human Anatomy.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Check out the dailies.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Oh all right, all right, so.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
It's the French Revolution. There's this guy named Napoleon. He's
most famous for being in Bill and Ted's excellent Adventure
the first one.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Uh pivotal, Yes, pivotal character.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Really the star of the show, this guy Napoleon, who
was not that short. He went crazy arresting all foreign
diplomats he could touch during his rise to power and
his ascendancy toward the French Empire. And he he did
this despite the sort of gentleman's agreement about diplomatic immunity.
(42:45):
He arrested all these folks because he said they're actively
conspiring against the new France.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
This sounds really familiar, This sounds well.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Enemies from all the countries.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Well, history would proved Napoleon Batch crazy for a number
of reasons, but it would also prove him correct in
this regard. The monarchical powers of Europe were super pissed
at him, and they were doing anything they could to
kill him.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
Well, when you treat everyone like an enemy for long enough,
they eventually become enemies. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
So weird that works.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
Well.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Then, in nineteen seventy nine, we had another revolution, this
time in Iran, and it was a whole other bag
of badgers.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
That's right. Fifty three US citizens that included diplomats, were
held hostage inside the US embassy in Tehran. The Iranian
revolution really could be a series unto itself. But we'll
just talk about how this impacted the idea of diplomatic community.
The positive note is, of course that the hostages were released. However,
(43:56):
it's a bit of a play, you know, when you
look at the timing, it doesn't it just feels, you know,
But that's sort of the nature of a lot of
these diplomatic deals. They're all kind of strategic plays.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
And now you can go back to twenty eighteen and
listen to our episode that we did on Iran back
in the day. Can't remember what it was called, but
it was about the imperial time in Iran and then
how everything changed, and I think we even touched on
this exact revolution.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
You can also watch this popular Western media. You can
watch film adaptations like Argo I think it's called, which
goes into a hostage crisis.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
Where they made like a fake movie and that was true,
that actually happened.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, those hostages are released on January twentieth, nineteen eighty one.
This shows us that there are bigger issues not just
with the concept of diplomatic immunity, but with the concept
of international accords in general. The rules only work when
every one agrees to follow them, just like painted lines
(45:03):
on the interstate are the only things stopping other cars.
From swarping at.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
You, and that nice thing that some new cars have
that makes you stay in the same lane, but sometimes
doesn't understand what lanes are.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
So it beeps at you when it turns off that
lea's mind does I've.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Been using it.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
It actually works relatively well most of the time.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Or it makes you try and turn into traffic across
the line because it doesn't understand it's a line.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yeah, like how early GPS services would say the best
possible move is for you to take this impossible left.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, through the woods.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Through the woods, over the river. Yes, yeah, Look, if
a given state doesn't want to play along, there are
sovereign power the international community can impose consequences carrot and
stick stuff right sanctions. We're gonna pull out of this deal,
But if we exercise empathy, you realize these macro maneuvers,
(46:03):
they're not really helpful to the individuals who have been detained, imprisoned, tortured,
or murdered in the meantime. And you know, we're not
going to get too into this for our own time here,
but we also suggest to you folks that there are
state powers currently using quote unquote terrorist groups as proxies
(46:26):
when they violate diplomatic immunities, so they can say, oh
my gosh, it wasn't us. You guys, we're just as
confused and pissed off and worried as you. You know. Oh,
by the way, you have a few of our very
innocent people in your prison. If you consider a trade
of some sort, we can talk with these terrorists, even
(46:50):
though we don't know them, again and we definitely don't
control them, Maybe we can work something out. Wow, spooky, stuffy. Yeah,
sometimes immunity doesn't It just doesn't work. That's not the
worst part. Let's go to the second type of corruption, uh, crimes.
(47:10):
Who doesn't love to do a good crime? Don't email us?
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Just really feel good? This really makes you feel alive.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Yeah, just have a feeling, you know.
Speaker 4 (47:19):
So.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Diplomatic immunity can be weaponized as a cover for criminal activity.
As was pointed out earlier, the law and all international
accords technically do not cover. You don't get immunity if
you are doing private acts that are unrelated to official duties.
(47:40):
To spend this out. That means that if you are
if you are a top level diplomat, you get caught
doing something unclean and creepy or just dumb and impulsive
like shoplifting. You would have to prove that's part of
your official duties. That doesn't mean you automatically get in trouble.
(48:01):
But if you or your legal team can make a
case that says, you know, this guy is stealing snacks
and one tourist hat as a diplomat, as a representative
of the UK or the US, then you scooch it.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
Is that the same as leaning him.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
I'm not sure, okay, fair, Oh oh, oh, guys, I
can't believe I haven't already brought it up. Whenever we
talk about diplomats, I'm always fascinated by this, this idea
of this attached a case or this diplomatic pouch that
everyone's always screaming about. That's where all the secrets are hidden, right, that's.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
The hot one. Yeah, diplomatic pouch or diplomatic.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Bag, diplomatic capoose if you will, here we.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
Go, diplomatic valise, diplomatic shipping container.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Career in all shapes and sizes, diplomatic Fannie pack.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
It's kind of like how any airplane the US President
is on is air Force one. It becomes that. So
anything you put the right official stamp, lock and seal on.
That container gets some of the same rights that individual
diplomats have as people. You've got a bit of immunity.
(49:13):
Your container cannot be searched. It can't be seized so
long as it contains articles for official diplomatic use.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Huh huh. How do you confirm if said items enclosed
are for official use?
Speaker 4 (49:29):
Well, you can't because you can't look inside. Don't ask
stupid questions. Back what no cheating? Sort of a Schrodinger's situation.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yea, I say so, Therefore it is right right, right.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
This is methemphetamine for government purposes, so you can stay
late to do all the work.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
These North Korean counterfeit supernotes are for the Swiss Bank,
not for you, guys. Don't cham us up. You said
you were being cool. Yeah. North Korean officials have used
diploma pouches to smuggle drugs counterfeit currency. One example of
how easy it is for this stuff to go wrong.
(50:11):
Do you guys remember back in twenty twelve, someone not
officially identified used counterfeit diplomatic pouches to send thirty five
pounds of cocaine straight to the UN.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
That's a lot of pouches. Broh, it was.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
Two bags, I think, yeah, two bags they officially caught.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
I guess that one.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
That's a question that I have though, like the nature
of the pouch in terms of it being an accessory. Oh,
it can be anything, or is it like a particular
style or brand.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
You can ship huge things in these huge pouches they've created,
as long as it's got that State Department official language
and stuff.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Right, Yeah, contains like it just needs the lock and
seal and the super fish stamp.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Yeah, or if you just I'm looking around, I'm imagining
stuff that I could fit into some of the pouches
I've seen. You could fit a guitar in some of them.
And they have this like brown kind of color that
is just off putting in a weird way.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
Who can also forced me to do it?
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I'm googling, Like here, I have a lunch box from
our friends at McSweeney's with the right stamping, with the
right heraldry signage and lock and seal. This would qualify
as a diplomatic pouch. WHOA, that's yeah, cool lunchbox too,
you know what.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
Some of these are more like diplomatic duffel bags. And
they're like diplomatic bag, the property the People's Republic of China.
A twelve five eighty seven is the one that I'm
looking at. And then there's one or like literally a
wooden shipping container with that stamp on it and like
draped with a velveted cloth that says diplomatic pouch.
Speaker 3 (51:57):
That's correct. Yeah, classic, sweet. Yeah, they've got this style
over function.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
Sure. Actually they're big into function overfunction. They're they're an
equal measure of style.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
What's that aesthetic called hemma? The Swedish concept is this
aesthetic of living comfortably? We agree with it anyway. This
the thing with this smuggling of massive amounts of cocaine
is that they were not using real diplo bags. They
knew most people do not understand what those look like.
(52:32):
So they made a close counterfeit and it made it
all the way from Mexico City to New York City,
primarily because most people couldn't tell the difference, and they
got shook. They saw something that looked like a bag
they have maybe seen earlier, or looked like signage they
have maybe seen earlier, and they said, oh, okay, we
gotta you know, move this forward. It didn't get popped
(52:55):
until it made it all the way to the actual
United Nations.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Dude, Okay, let's talk about that. So if you put
a phone number on that bag, that is like a
lot of the other state department signage for diplomatic purposes,
like the ones that's on the license the licenses that
people carry, like the one that you can find on
a license plate on some state department issues cars. Sure,
(53:20):
you just call that number, and whoever's on the other end,
you ask questions or try and confirm is this bag legit?
And you probably, if you're like me who called like
one of these numbers earlier today, you just believe whatever
the person on the other end of the line says.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
So it could be a fake number.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
Yes, you just put a fake number, and now you just, oh,
this is that's kind of terrifying.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Well, unfortunately, I don't know if it works anymore. But
this was a great exploit and you absolutely nailed it.
There's also a log record of people pretending to be diplomats,
which is also cartoonishly easy, you know, if you've got
your vinegar about you.
Speaker 4 (54:03):
We do have to say, though, this.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
Is the part we really want to get to yes,
some individual diplomats and people we could call VIPs do
get away with stuff, a lot of stuff with very
few things in the way of actual consequences. And speaking
of crime, yes, individual diplomats and people we could call
(54:27):
VIPs do get away with stuff up to child abuse,
domestic violence, manslaughter, willful murder. It gets really dirty, really quick.
And that is going to be part two of our
series on diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
It feels right, there's just so much there and it's
really truly kind of plumbing the darker depths of this topic.
So please tune in for part two.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
In the meantime. Thank you so much for tuning in,
fellow conspiracy realist, diplomat, non diplomats, criminals and non criminals alike.
We can't thank you enough for your time. We want
to hear your thoughts, your experiences. Tell us if you've
ever seen a shady diplomatic pouch. We try to be
(55:15):
easy to find online. You can get us on the internet,
you can call us on a telephonic device. You can
even send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
I'd like to put forth that the producer and DJ
Diplo is missing out on a crucial merch opportunity. You
should have diplomatic pouches.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Are the pouches that play his songs when you open them?
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Maybe that's how you know it's real.
Speaker 4 (55:42):
Yes, exactly, And what are some ideas that you might
have for merchandising opportunities for DIPLO. You can write to
us all over the internet where conspiracy stuff on x FKA, Twitter,
on YouTube we have video content galore for your enjoyment.
And on Facebook with our Facebook group here's where it's crazy.
On Instagram and TikTok. However, we're conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
We have a phone number. You can call it right now.
It's one eight six six two one seven two o
eight nine. Oh wait no, sorry, that's the Diplomatic Security
Command Center.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
Call that one to leave them. You don't even have
to limit it three minutes.
Speaker 3 (56:22):
I call them all the time. Ask for Steve.
Speaker 2 (56:24):
Just actually, let's not harass the State Department has.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
Just check in with Steve's your reasonable questions.
Speaker 4 (56:34):
We're also lonely.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
They are available twenty four to seven.
Speaker 3 (56:38):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
If you want to call us, our number is one
eight three three st d w y t K. It's
a voicemail system. When you call in Please leave a
cool nickname for yourself and let us know within the
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the air. If you've got more to say than can
fit in a three minute message, why not instead send
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Speaker 3 (56:56):
We are the entities to read each piece, of course,
by fundance we receive. It does not have to be
a long email. It can be any length format that
you wish. We want to see those ancillery links. We
want to hear your favorite stories. We also always love
to hear recommendations for new episodes you feel your fellow
(57:18):
listeners may enjoy. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the
void writes back, so you can see us online. You're
not gonna catch us in vienna. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
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Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noman.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. Now, guys, I'm thinking for
the beginning of this we get into like, let's really
set the scene, Dylan Andrew. Could we get some kind
(00:51):
of like ominous you know, espionage music? Perfect? Yeah, No,
give us like you're great at this. Noom, give us
like a give us like a want to beat. Okay, okay,
(01:15):
I like it. I like it. Here we go. I
love a throat seeing. So we're setting the scene. A
fellow conspiracy realist. Let's say, Matt, Noel, you and I
have all gathered together. We're off the books. We're in
and out of the way cafe. It's a side street
in Vienna and uh, Noel, Matt, we're grabbing coffee. Uh,
(01:39):
whichever you like to order. Remember, there is symbolism involved.
So we're having a polite conversation with a well dressed, unremarkable,
middle aged gentleman. And we've all, you know, all four
of us have seen this guy here and there at
previous parties. He speaks with a refined pod Oxford tented
(02:01):
English accent. Yet we know him as a representative of
our friends in Moscow. In this conversation, which is polite
as pie, he speaks for Moscow. And so he comes
to us, Matt Nole and he he we're getting You know,
Nole's got cafe Olay, Matt, what kind of thing do
(02:22):
you get at a coffee bar?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Keeps barkeep? Yes, yes, I'll have I'll have one. Bailey's
in a shoe.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Okay, Bailey's in a shoe. Cafe Ola, h call me espresso.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
We're having this very polite conversation with this guy, and
he places two documents on the table. The first document
is a police report, and this police report, translated from Russian,
details a fatal car crash earlier that week, just that
week in Saint Petersburg. Turns out a US diplomat pulled
(02:58):
a hit and run after are colliding with a young
man on a motorbike. The second document shows a photo
that all of us recognize. It's a man that we
internally call John Smith. He's been held in Russian custody
for three years now. And this well dressed man putting
these things again politely on the table in this out
(03:20):
of the way cafe. He says, My friends, we can
all agree it's best to keep things collegiate. We are
at a wonderful time in our conversation, So why rock
the boat? Surely we can figure this out together.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Geez, yeah, I'll do whatever you say, buddy. That accent.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Is this story referencing the actual crash and death that
involved Harry Dunn.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Which we will get to. Uh, let's say, loosely inspired
by possible events.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Okay, wow, yeah we do? What do we do?
Speaker 4 (04:01):
It's not only for us to do. He's kind of
I mean, we kind of know where things stand, right.
Isn't that the whole idea that we're being strong armed
at this cafe amongst polite cohorts?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
But wait, who were we? Why is he telling us?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Are we We're uh, we're just some guys at a cafe.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Weird horses.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
So folks, welcome to our episode on diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Do you love me?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
I know it's a reference to Matt.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Okay, we all know it, just like we're at the cafe.
Yeah yeah, excuse me, uh Viennese server. Could we have
one more Bailey's in a shoe another cafe Oley and
espresso and my friend, Hey, would you.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Like Earl Gray?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Earl Gray? Sleepy time in a busy town.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Let's hit a quick sponsor break and we'll be back
with more on diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Here are the facts, all right, what is diplomatic immunity?
First off, you know, obviously it's I don't know. The
weirdest thing we can say about it is it's like
a cultural version of vaccination.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Can we also say a real quick right up front?
It's some bulls?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Uh yeah, yeah. It really does seem like that, especially
when you get into the real world. Examples that even
people like the State Department make YouTube videos to try
and explain, and when you watch them and you hear
the way local law enforcement officers are supposed to interact
(05:54):
with consulates and diplomatic.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Training video from the nineties, Matt, when you're describing this
I'm sorry, but feels yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Cool, but animated but animated yeah, Well, and you can't
show anything that actually happened or any of the specifics,
but you can just illustrate what happens in these situations.
So diplomatic immunity, what these things are trying to show, right,
is the literal immunity that certain individual human beings have
(06:21):
to the laws of a certain country they're operating in
because they don't live there, they're on a mission there there.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
To the rule of law. Yeah, it's it's at the
most basic level, it's the idea that certain human individuals,
due to their position in one government, will be holly
or partially exempt from the rule of law in another
government in another regime. So this guarantees basic stuff like
(06:53):
freedom and travel, safe passage in or out of a country.
And to this point, you know, obviously it's sounds a
little bit bonkers, like why are we placing some people
as automatically better than other people?
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Question, is this the kind of thing that the current
administration might start to put the kaibash on? It just
seems very anti their whole vibe.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well, as we'll see, there are a lot of conspiratorial
soft factors involved. That's an excellent question, and it's one
that people have wrestled with for no kidding millennia. History
has proven that concepts like diplomatic immunity are surprisingly ancient.
You can go to Indian epics like the Ramayana, you
(07:43):
can look through any number of examples in ancient Greece
and Rome. Cultures across the world kind of have this,
and across the chasms of time they kind of have
this loose gentleman's agreement or understanding that if you know,
King matt sends a messenger an envoy to the sultan null.
(08:06):
The thing is, no matter what kind of news is delivered,
the receiving sultan is not going to kill the messenger,
not going to kill that envoid. That's the origin of
the old saying, don't shoot the messenger.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Unless you're the mouth of Sauron, in which case you
get your head cut off.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
See, But guys Plutarch and Sophocles taught us about these
in the stories that they wrote, and one of the
primary ones that is cited often is this concept of
one I guess sultan or king or somebody at the
highest level of government in a country did that very thing.
We're got so angry at the bad news that was
(08:45):
delivered that he killed that person and then everyone was
afraid to share information to that king that was bad.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, I mean, I certainly think there's way problematic issues
around it that were going to get into, but in general,
it is sort of a guarantee that information can be
shared freely without fear of immediate retribution.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, and as always, let's go to the primary source.
I love you're pointing that out, Matt. The line that
stands out to me, and I think to a lot
of us is from Plutarch in his work Lives, where
he says the first messager that gave notice of Lucullus's
coming was so far from pleasing Tigrains that he had
his head caught off for his pains, and no man
(09:30):
dared to bring further information without any intelligence at all,
Tigrain sat while war was already blazing around him, giving
ear only to those who flattered him.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah. Well that's the point, right, That's kind of the
point of this, not the point, it's one of the
main points of the State Department, and a lot of
the stuff that exists under the State Department is to
intelligence gather That's what all of this is about. So
even as dipple mets are operating within the United States
and United States diplomats are quote operating in other countries.
(10:07):
It is this weird little game that we've talked about
in our spy episodes. It isn't exactly the same thing,
but it is directly tied to it.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
And as we'll see, there are other forms of immunity
that I think trouble all of us, especially with the KSA,
Saudi Nationals and some incidents in Japan where they absconded
with or they leverage state power and corruption to save
accountable from justice. We'll get to that towards the end
(10:38):
as well. I mean, like this is the great point.
It is not to say that everyone always respects this
loose agreement, especially pre Vienna. There are so many real
life horror stories about rulers who got bad news and
they broke a covenant. They didn't just murder the messenger.
They didn't just shoot the messenger. They would torture them
(11:00):
in brutal ways and then send pieces of the body
back as the message to that foreign power in general.
To the earlier point across the span of human civilization.
Everybody said, you know, this is dirty pool, this is
below the belt.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh yeah, for sure. Before we go below the belt, guys,
can we just quickly talk about town criers? Mm hmm, sure, yeah,
I think yeah, I think we mentioned it before. I
can't remember the context of the episode, but it was
kind of I don't know, mind blowing in a way,
but also makes a lot of sense that back in
(11:40):
the day, specifically in the United Kingdom, it was treasonous
to harm a town crier. I feel like we've talked
about this before. Yes, oh, okay, okay, I didn't. I
didn't realize that that we could. In a way, the
crier was the diplomat of the crown like that, coming
out to the people to speak right of the words
(12:01):
of the king or the queen or whatever.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
It's in theory an arrangement that benefits both the people
and the crown.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You know, it's the Twitter of the town, right, It's
the social media of the day. So if you have
a problem with what's being said and you kill the platform,
then now you have to find a new platform. So
there's logic to it.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, well, and it's a full affront to the person
who was making those statements, right, this concept right of that,
and that's the way I'm thinking about consulates and diplomats
now in this version, right.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, metonomy Like in our early you know, our opening
thought experiment, this Oxford accented man speaks for Moscow very
much is Moscow, and so the town crier is very
much the king, and so a relative of a sovereign.
Back in the cursed days of monarchies, the relative of
the sovereign is autonomy. For the sovereign is the crown
(12:58):
is speaking for and behalf thereof. So the logic being
that any injury or insults to that envoy is indeed
a direct attack upon the government or the regime represented.
You know, like it's so weird because this was incredibly
(13:21):
important back in the day. It was such a party
foul that the intelligentsia of the time would say, if you,
even if we don't have you know, modern laws, if
you break this agreement, if you kill the messenger, you
have violated divine protocols the gods. The gods should punish.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
It's an act of war at the very least, right.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yes, and happened very many times, especially as the kanate
expands through so much stuff, so many examples. We can
fast forward to modern diplomatic immunity. Let's call it nineteen
sixty one. There's a little town in Austria called Vienna.
(14:07):
They're known for their coffee shops. There's a thing that
occurs in nineteen sixty one, the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
This is still to this day, as we record on
April eighteenth, twenty twenty five, it is still regarded as
one of the bar nun top tier international agreements in
(14:31):
all of human history, because it says, look, even if
your countries are fighting, even if there is a regional
or dare we say, a world war, we're all going
to make a deal where you can send representatives to
respond to stuff, to propose some stuff, and you can't
(14:54):
kill them. You gotta let them get out. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, just this concept that we all need to be
able to talk first about whatever it is, whether it's
economic stuff, whether it's trading, you know, making some kind
of trade for prisoners, you know, all of these things.
We need to be able to talk at least before
we start firing weapons at each other. It's a great idea.
It is weird to me that it was written in
(15:19):
nineteen sixty one, but it wasn't officially entered into force
for three year well almost yeah, no, almost exactly three
years in nineteen sixty four. So it's and that.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
You aske didn't have a version until nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, So it makes sense though that I guess it
would take that long for enough countries to say, okay,
yes we agree when everybody else sends people to us,
will be careful with them and let them do whatever
they want, even though it's not It isn't saying that
these this the accords and this convention and everything. It
(15:55):
gets really close to saying people can just do what
they need to do in your country.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's it's very much like in personal experience. We won't
spend too much time on it. It's very much like
for anyone who's been to a college dormitory and you
have an RA or something where they resident advisors and
they say, look, I'm just a few years older than you.
We're all from different places.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
We all got to live together, like becoming the op
so quickly you know, it's all monitor right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Just don't make trouble, you know what I mean like
if you if you know, you might drink a little beer,
you might smoke a little pot, or just don't let
people see it and don't be a dick to the
other people in the door.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Maybe yeah, the one flavor of RA, but then you
also have the real hard nosed ones that everyone despises.
But you're absolutely right then, But.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
For me it goes even further. It's and and also,
I'm the RA, so I'm gonna need to do things
any that you don't need to know about. But I'm
gonna you know, I'm gonna be doing these things. And
you might even see me doing some of these things. Yes,
but that's that's if I do it, doesn't mean you
can do it.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
That's great because now our RA I love this example
because now our r R A is going to one
door room and saying, look, we all know this guy
came into your room and took a massive and he
did smear it on the walls. But there are factors
at play that are bigger than this.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
All right, Yeah, he doesn't have to clean it up.
That's just one of the rules.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Someone.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, sure, and we will also let me the RA
know that he did it, so you know, and I'm
aware that he did it.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
We all know. We've all seen his SpongeBob pants. It's
clearly this guy. So investigations continue. Yeah, this is this
is at heart a mission critical thing. This practice of
the concept of don't shoot the messenger, diplomatic immunity. It
has saved civilization from war and it has definitely saved
(18:14):
a lot of diplomats, add a lot of diplomats.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But it's made a lot of deals too.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
It's made so many deals. That's part of it. There
is very much an art of a deal. Unrelated to
the book, this is also a concept that all of
us found widely misunderstood in the modern day. I remember
when this came up and we decided to make an
episode about it. Maybe it was on air, maybe we
(18:43):
were hanging out. But the question is, is diplomatic immunity
really a get out of jail free card? But can
if you're powerful enough in say Foreign Ministry or US
State Department, can you actually get away with murder to
understand that we got to bust some myths it.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm already so uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yes, because we can get prosecuted. Yeah, like the three
of us, and.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
If I if I go into the Nordstrum somewhere and
take three thousand dollars worth of business jackets and stuff
them into a bag. This is this is an actual,
real example, and I walk out and the store says, hey,
(19:40):
you can't do that, and they call the police. I
go to jail for a felony. But some other people
might not.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
The thing's question, do they get to keep the stuff?
Speaker 3 (19:55):
All right, you said you were going to be cool man.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
I'm just asking, I'm just it seems like there has
to be a limit to this diplomatic community business.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
All right, Yes, and that's perfect. That's our first misconception,
and it's partially the fault of Hollywood and fiction and film.
Not every embassy employee the world round has some sort
of magical blanket immunity under the Vienna Convention of nineteen
sixty one, which again the vast majority of countries have ratified.
(20:28):
The laws of this magic getaway card only applies to
the top diplo dogs. So if you're saying one of
the it guys, massive apologies, you still have to pay
your parking tickets at some point, unless you're not really
an it guy whatever. So if you're a non embassy employee.
(20:50):
Right like, if we all just get a wild hair
and we say, hey, when's the last time we went
to Bhutan together? If we're just visiting a country, we
don't get immunity. And that's why, that's why it is
very important wherever you live, if you are traveling to
a different country, always check to see whether your country,
(21:14):
your origin country has an embassy or a consulate in
the place that you are visiting. Let them know your
travel plans if it is possible for you to do so. Yes, Yeah,
the US State Department is you know, we know folks
in there. They're doing their best kind of in an
(21:36):
uphill situation right now, but they will they will be
readily transparent with any concerns they might have.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Dude, let's really quickly. I think we've talked about this too,
but let's establish this as well. You will hear the
words embassy and consolate thrown around sometimes as the same thing.
It's synonymous, but they are not the same thing. An
embassy is the primary version of one state's operations within
(22:06):
another state like a host country. And then and that's
usually in like the capital city. But then the consulate
is there can be multiple consulates, and those are in
strategic areas for maybe economic stuff, trade stuff, or other
types of missions that might be happening within a host country.
(22:26):
But they're very interesting. You can look up both. You
can get in too the minutia of it. It's like
officially what they do, but diplomatic relations between the two
governments generally occur at the embassy. Consulate. Stuff often goes
into like the cultural.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Things, which is really interesting, Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Because that's where I don't know, I feel like that's
where that's where some of the Shenanikins can occur there
because it is there there they are the people. The
consulate is the place where the one on one stuff
happens between people who are visiting a host country from
the consulates country. That's where they interact often.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah, picture it like DMV or DDS. Our official line
is that for UH, for someone visiting foreign country, your consulate, UH,
your regional consulate is going to be the place where
there's a little window and you wait in line for
a former stamp. That is our official line to your point, Matt.
(23:27):
There are many cultural programs out of consulates, and there's
great time and care paid to those programs.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Oh yeah, I got Uh. Just, guys, I got invited
to a very interesting cultural thing for China recently here
through my son's school. That was very interesting. The way
it was worded, Did you go? No, I haven't gone yet,
but I might.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
What do you mean, oh, yes, can we crash?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
It's it's maybe yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Can you give us of the No, it's just it's
so language.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Did they give you the jimmies or something? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I didn't get the jimmies, I got the shakes. No, No,
I just it was one of those things where the
way it was worded specifically was so much in promotion
of China. It reminded me a bit of some of
the Shenyun stuff. But maybe from the state's side, does
(24:26):
that make sense?
Speaker 3 (24:27):
It does make sense such that I think I may
We're not going to say it on air, but I
think I may know what you're talking about.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
I think I might have gotten an invite too.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Also, there's a there's an International rud convention that occurs
every so often in Houston and Atlanta. If you guys
want to go.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
That sounds great, tasteful throws.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Speaking of speaking of tasteful throws. Here's the here's the
straight poop on this, and we're back. If you are
one of those top diplo dogs, you are an ambassador.
(25:14):
Usually in the US, at least typically, there's a mix
between lifelong career public servants, very high fluting experts on
a region, and straight up political hires. There are ambassadors
who might not even speak the language of the country
(25:34):
in which they reside. But if you are in that
rarefied air, you cannot be handcuffed, arrested, detained, you can't
even be prosecuted by law enforcement in the country that
you're working in. Caveat asterisk, caveat asterisk.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, dude, can I give a quick example of this? Okay,
So the State Department of the United States or the
United States State Department US sorry, or the US Department
of State. They have a YouTube channel, you guys, and
on that YouTube channel they posted this thing, and they
give an example of that I kind of already talked about.
(26:13):
It is the woman who was caught shoplifting three thousand
dollars worth of goods from a mall. The police showed
up and they said, oh, yeah, you have too much.
This is like too much money and goods. This is
a felony. I have to detain you like I have
to arrescue. And she said, well, she said no, this
is a real example the state department gave. She said, oh, no,
(26:36):
my husband is a diplomat. I have diplomatic immunity. And
everybody who has diplomatic immunity or supposedly has a state
department issued ID like a driver's license, but from the
state department. And she shows that to the police officer.
The police officer is required to make a phone call
that just goes to the state department and they say, hey,
(26:58):
I am confirming these numbers on the back of this
idea this person's identity, and the state department will say
yes or no to whether or not this person has immunity.
If they have immunity. In this case, the felony part,
the arrest cannot happen. The arrest cannot happen, so she
(27:19):
has to be let go and just go on her way.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Like, really, that's true, that is all true. Everything you
just heard is factual, folks. There are other misconceptions. That's
a high level thing. It doesn't always happen. For instance,
if you are the spouse of an administrative employee. You
may not have the same considerations and superpowers. People also
(27:46):
maybe confuse diplomatic immunity with the idea of that as
soon as you put your foot over the threshold of
an embassy, you are automatically on sovereign territory. That is
not quite true. You do not automatically get the rights
guaranteed in US law just because you made it past
(28:07):
the front gate. There are exemptions and exceptions to this,
to all of these concepts. Most notably and horrifically, I
think we've all seen the stories of North Korean refugees
escaping the Hermit Kingdom and getting by hook or by
(28:28):
crook to mainland China and then risking their lives to
get past those front gates for the r ok that
be South Korea to most Americans, or to the US
embassy or another friendly, friendly country, And you can see
terrible videos of Chinese authorities literally snatching these people by
(28:51):
the back of the neck as there as they're almost.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
To freedom by the scruss.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Just so, and if China catches these folks first, they're
considered not refugees but rather illegal economic immigrants. They're deported
back to a life of horror in the DPRK. So
there are exceptions, sort of like how for a long
time during the Cold War, United States standing policy is, hey,
(29:20):
we don't like illegal immigration, but if you are from
Cuba and you touch foot on the soil, we got you.
Not if you're Haitian, not if you're from the Dominican Republic,
but specifically, if you're from Cuba and you make that
ninety mile trek, then we got you. So there are
(29:41):
many exceptions to these ideas of immunity.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Oh for sure. And the State Department wants you to
know that just because someone has immunity doesn't mean they
have immunity of consequences for their actions.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
They're very they're very strict about this, and they say,
just because some nobody can't get arrested for a felony
they committed, doesn't mean that the State Department isn't going
to get a full detailed report of that incident, and
then maybe the embassy itself or the consulate or the
State Department will take action.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
That could mean losing your job at the very least,
right or getting stripped of your diplomatic you know, schrcial powers.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, you nailed it. There are consequences
because being exempt from like having diplomatic immunity in a
destination country or a country of residents, does not provide
diplomatic immunity in a country of origin.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
And let's just remember too that this all even comes
into play and stuff kicks in when you get caught,
well everybody knows, you know, and then it becomes a
potential diplomatic crisis or a pr night. There has to
be dealt with in some way, you know, to keep
the relationship between the countries, you know, in good standing.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yes, many variables, And I want to spend a second
before we move on to that idea of getting caught. Yes,
getting officially caught is not the same thing as the
polite conversation we had at the top of this show
in Vienna.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh absolutely, it's not the same thing. It's also getting
caught by a police officer that just lets you go
isn't the same thing as being caught in the public eye,
right if And and let's let's get to this next
point about diplomats and consular employees driving vehicles in LAS
(31:36):
parking violations, moving violations, driving traffic, motor violations.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Right right, Dy's as well.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, oh yeah, like this is a big This is
a real big deal. And we talked about it when
we were we went we went pretty deep into the
diplomatic relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia a
while back, and we talked about this a bit.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
But our previous episode, why does the US let Saudi
fugitives flee the country? We're gonna spend some time on
that later too. Okay, we recorded that in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Oh yeah, so not that long ago. Oh my god,
you can't believe for so far from twenty twenty already.
But this is this is a huge deal because, just
like that other example, the Statement Department goes into some
of these violations, including getting like anyone else in the
world would get a DUI if they were definitely intoxicated
(32:31):
and crash their very nice consular vehicle into a railing
and destroy their vehicle. But in that case, a police
officer cannot arrest that person for any of those things.
They just have to let them go and notify the
State Department.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
See the car, make the call. Yeah, this is a
third lighter misconception parking violations. It's a whole ridiculous bag
at badgers. We do want to recommend an excellent piece
from NPR way back in twenty eleven. Shout out to
the journalist Mark Memmett who points out that Washington, d C,
(33:07):
and New York City in particular are still quarreling with
various foreign diplomats and embassies regarding parking tickets. Now, if
you've ever been to New York City or d C,
first off, they're great towns. They're two of the best
towns in the entirety of the United States, and parking
(33:29):
sucks there. Parking is a hostile environment in DC. And
these folks have people, they have, you know, stuff to do.
Matters as state. It's ongoing. But the scary thing is,
unlike an average person, a non diplomat committing a crime,
every crime you commit in this role is negotiable. That's
(33:54):
where the danger lies.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Oh dude. In the example the State Department gave of
that dui dude. Who the dui dude? It was in Maryland,
by the way, right outside d C. I think in
Arundel County makes sense. It's where it all happened. The embassy,
his home country's embassy that's within the United States ended
up terminating his assignment and sent him home, and the
(34:19):
US State Department suspended his license that he got through them,
and they made him pay for this for his three
other violations, which I'm pretty sure we're parking violations as
you're talking about, Ben, But so so there are consequences
for these things, right, But it's not at all, as
you're saying, the same way that anybody else would get
(34:40):
would have to deal with consequences.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Right Right, it's a it's a different it's still a pop,
but it's a different kind and we're not going to
reuse that sound. C The other the other thing we
have to set up here is that this type of
immunity is not permanent, nor is it consistent. One of
the first things they really hammer home in DOS or
(35:02):
in any foreign ministry kind of employment regimen is the following.
Your origin country can always get a call and they
can agree to waive immunity just because you know you
are the high muckety muck for whatever Ottoman Empire is
(35:25):
in vogue. It doesn't mean the Ottoman Empire is required
to support you. They can get the call and they
can say, oh yeah, ah man, beat me here Dylan.
They can say, oh yeah, no, yeah, fuck that guy.
Put him under the jail. You can meet with consequences.
And it's all because despite the modern legalese and all
(35:47):
the accords and whatnot, this is still the ancient gentleman's agreement.
People are still just sort of handshaking on this thing.
And that should scare you.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Oh yeah, for sure, absolutely, just to get in that
idea that you put forward, been the idea that diplomatic
community has varying degrees, right, Because there's one last example
I want to put out here from that video. I'm
sorry the guys I got all hypes on this animated
(36:18):
State Department video. This one other thing.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
They're really good, by the way, everybody should check them out.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, you guys know the highway four hundred that goes
from Atlanta up north. Now, there's an example from Roswell, Georgia,
which is a town along that highway as you're going
back into the city, where a dude got pulled over
on August fourth. They didn't give it like a year.
I don't know why, but he was going ninety two
miles per hour on four hundred, which is a big no.
(36:46):
No police officer lights and sirens pulled the guy over.
He showed yep, he showed his State Department ID. It
got checked there via the phone number you call on
the back, and it was noted that this guy does
have diplomatic community. But the state department says this quote
the driver, as a consular officer, has immunity only for
(37:10):
his consular functions, so he had to appear before a
criminal court for charges regarding non official acts. So in
this case, he got cited for like unsafe driving and
like because he was going so fast over the speed limit,
which I believe is like fifty five maybe sixty five
right in that area. But he did have to end
(37:32):
up going to court for that for those charges. But
this is what the State Department finishes that with. This
is the case for most consular officers, but there are
some exceptions, So always call the state department, and that
is speaking directly to law enforcement officers.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Just check in and we'll get to that point about
official versus personal duties as well. Well. We got to
hit you with here, folks, is that there are obviously
a lot of loopholes, caveats, soft variables, asterisk so on.
As a result, it is sadly not surprising that the
concept of diplomatic immunity has been corrupted, conspired with, leveraged,
(38:15):
and abused. And that's what we're looking at tonight. We're
going to take a break for a word from our sponsors,
and then we'll ask what happens when this immunity goes wrong?
Years where it gets crazy? All right? First type of
(38:37):
corruption with this the funniest one. We have it in
the notes as uh, screw you guys.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's about right.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, So what happens though? What is screw you guys
as the first type of corruption? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (38:54):
I think it's relatively self explanatory. In some cases, when
a foreign government and gets into a situation involving diplomatic community,
they may just decide to ignore the rules of that
country that their person is deployed in. So this is
once again kind of a callback to some of those
(39:15):
ancient examples of don't kill the messenger diplomatic community, you know,
one point zero. So, just as there were warlords of
the time who might slice the head off of someone
bringing some particularly unwelcome news and send that head back
to the rival rulers as a sign of their displeasure.
(39:37):
Dare we say an act of war. More modern governments,
you know, have exercised a slightly less dramatic, but equally
fu form of violating terms of the Vienna Convention numerous times.
This has happened over the course of more modern history.
It often happens during periods of international or regional dispute,
(40:01):
particularly when there is something of an uprising or a revolution.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, pre war and during war, that's when the paranoia
gets its worst.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
I mean, technically, isn't all time not during war?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Pre war you know that's good? Or post war? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Yeah, post war is another form of pre war. As
we know, it's common.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, but you don't kill them in post war. That's
when you.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Watch it, when you try to be nice and make agreements.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Nuremberg has entered the chat. The idea is, I would
argue human civilization is in a toxic relationship with itself. Yes,
just a few periods in between violence. What I love
about the example you're setting out there, Nolu. The anecdote
of warlords of old deciding or choosing how they send
(40:53):
their reply or their message. It reminds me of the
old joke I don't know a familiar with this is
with a lot of people. But uh, the old joke
goes the guy, one of the court members opens the
box that has returned from the connet and they find
human head with the word no written on it, and
(41:17):
they really need the know's. Yeah no, it's it's insult injury,
they said, your highness, I believe the con has replied, Yeah, yeah,
with revolutions. We got two examples that will be helpful
here and hopefully uh memorable to all of us playing
(41:39):
along tonight. Them then receiving a head in a box, Well,
we're not going to send heads. I don't think we
have it in the budget.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
They are quite pricey, especially they're really photo realistic looking
fake ones.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Pinkies exclusively, yeah or pinky toes mm toes, very very much,
in my opinion, an overrated part of Human Anatomy.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Check out the dailies.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Oh all right, all right, so.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
It's the French Revolution. There's this guy named Napoleon. He's
most famous for being in Bill and Ted's excellent Adventure
the first one.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Uh pivotal, Yes, pivotal character.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Really the star of the show, this guy Napoleon, who
was not that short. He went crazy arresting all foreign
diplomats he could touch during his rise to power and
his ascendancy toward the French Empire. And he he did
this despite the sort of gentleman's agreement about diplomatic immunity.
(42:45):
He arrested all these folks because he said they're actively
conspiring against the new France.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
This sounds really familiar, This sounds well.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Enemies from all the countries.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Well, history would proved Napoleon Batch crazy for a number
of reasons, but it would also prove him correct in
this regard. The monarchical powers of Europe were super pissed
at him, and they were doing anything they could to
kill him.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
Well, when you treat everyone like an enemy for long enough,
they eventually become enemies. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
So weird that works.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
Well.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Then, in nineteen seventy nine, we had another revolution, this
time in Iran, and it was a whole other bag
of badgers.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
That's right. Fifty three US citizens that included diplomats, were
held hostage inside the US embassy in Tehran. The Iranian
revolution really could be a series unto itself. But we'll
just talk about how this impacted the idea of diplomatic community.
The positive note is, of course that the hostages were released. However,
(43:56):
it's a bit of a play, you know, when you
look at the timing, it doesn't it just feels, you know,
But that's sort of the nature of a lot of
these diplomatic deals. They're all kind of strategic plays.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
And now you can go back to twenty eighteen and
listen to our episode that we did on Iran back
in the day. Can't remember what it was called, but
it was about the imperial time in Iran and then
how everything changed, and I think we even touched on
this exact revolution.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
You can also watch this popular Western media. You can
watch film adaptations like Argo I think it's called, which
goes into a hostage crisis.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
Where they made like a fake movie and that was true,
that actually happened.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, those hostages are released on January twentieth, nineteen eighty one.
This shows us that there are bigger issues not just
with the concept of diplomatic immunity, but with the concept
of international accords in general. The rules only work when
every one agrees to follow them, just like painted lines
(45:03):
on the interstate are the only things stopping other cars.
From swarping at.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
You, and that nice thing that some new cars have
that makes you stay in the same lane, but sometimes
doesn't understand what lanes are.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
So it beeps at you when it turns off that
lea's mind does I've.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Been using it.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
It actually works relatively well most of the time.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Or it makes you try and turn into traffic across
the line because it doesn't understand it's a line.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yeah, like how early GPS services would say the best
possible move is for you to take this impossible left.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, through the woods.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Through the woods, over the river. Yes, yeah, Look, if
a given state doesn't want to play along, there are
sovereign power the international community can impose consequences carrot and
stick stuff right sanctions. We're gonna pull out of this deal,
But if we exercise empathy, you realize these macro maneuvers,
(46:03):
they're not really helpful to the individuals who have been detained, imprisoned, tortured,
or murdered in the meantime. And you know, we're not
going to get too into this for our own time here,
but we also suggest to you folks that there are
state powers currently using quote unquote terrorist groups as proxies
(46:26):
when they violate diplomatic immunities, so they can say, oh
my gosh, it wasn't us. You guys, we're just as
confused and pissed off and worried as you. You know. Oh,
by the way, you have a few of our very
innocent people in your prison. If you consider a trade
of some sort, we can talk with these terrorists, even
(46:50):
though we don't know them, again and we definitely don't
control them, Maybe we can work something out. Wow, spooky, stuffy. Yeah,
sometimes immunity doesn't It just doesn't work. That's not the
worst part. Let's go to the second type of corruption, uh, crimes.
(47:10):
Who doesn't love to do a good crime? Don't email us?
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Just really feel good? This really makes you feel alive.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Yeah, just have a feeling, you know.
Speaker 4 (47:19):
So.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Diplomatic immunity can be weaponized as a cover for criminal activity.
As was pointed out earlier, the law and all international
accords technically do not cover. You don't get immunity if
you are doing private acts that are unrelated to official duties.
(47:40):
To spend this out. That means that if you are
if you are a top level diplomat, you get caught
doing something unclean and creepy or just dumb and impulsive
like shoplifting. You would have to prove that's part of
your official duties. That doesn't mean you automatically get in trouble.
(48:01):
But if you or your legal team can make a
case that says, you know, this guy is stealing snacks
and one tourist hat as a diplomat, as a representative
of the UK or the US, then you scooch it.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
Is that the same as leaning him.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
I'm not sure, okay, fair, Oh oh, oh, guys, I
can't believe I haven't already brought it up. Whenever we
talk about diplomats, I'm always fascinated by this, this idea
of this attached a case or this diplomatic pouch that
everyone's always screaming about. That's where all the secrets are hidden, right, that's.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
The hot one. Yeah, diplomatic pouch or diplomatic.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Bag, diplomatic capoose if you will, here we.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
Go, diplomatic valise, diplomatic shipping container.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Career in all shapes and sizes, diplomatic Fannie pack.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
It's kind of like how any airplane the US President
is on is air Force one. It becomes that. So
anything you put the right official stamp, lock and seal on.
That container gets some of the same rights that individual
diplomats have as people. You've got a bit of immunity.
(49:13):
Your container cannot be searched. It can't be seized so
long as it contains articles for official diplomatic use.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Huh huh. How do you confirm if said items enclosed
are for official use?
Speaker 4 (49:29):
Well, you can't because you can't look inside. Don't ask
stupid questions. Back what no cheating? Sort of a Schrodinger's situation.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yea, I say so, Therefore it is right right, right.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
This is methemphetamine for government purposes, so you can stay
late to do all the work.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
These North Korean counterfeit supernotes are for the Swiss Bank,
not for you, guys. Don't cham us up. You said
you were being cool. Yeah. North Korean officials have used
diploma pouches to smuggle drugs counterfeit currency. One example of
how easy it is for this stuff to go wrong.
(50:11):
Do you guys remember back in twenty twelve, someone not
officially identified used counterfeit diplomatic pouches to send thirty five
pounds of cocaine straight to the UN.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
That's a lot of pouches. Broh, it was.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
Two bags, I think, yeah, two bags they officially caught.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
I guess that one.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
That's a question that I have though, like the nature
of the pouch in terms of it being an accessory. Oh,
it can be anything, or is it like a particular
style or brand.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
You can ship huge things in these huge pouches they've created,
as long as it's got that State Department official language
and stuff.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Right, Yeah, contains like it just needs the lock and
seal and the super fish stamp.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Yeah, or if you just I'm looking around, I'm imagining
stuff that I could fit into some of the pouches
I've seen. You could fit a guitar in some of them.
And they have this like brown kind of color that
is just off putting in a weird way.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
Who can also forced me to do it?
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I'm googling, Like here, I have a lunch box from
our friends at McSweeney's with the right stamping, with the
right heraldry signage and lock and seal. This would qualify
as a diplomatic pouch. WHOA, that's yeah, cool lunchbox too,
you know what.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
Some of these are more like diplomatic duffel bags. And
they're like diplomatic bag, the property the People's Republic of China.
A twelve five eighty seven is the one that I'm
looking at. And then there's one or like literally a
wooden shipping container with that stamp on it and like
draped with a velveted cloth that says diplomatic pouch.
Speaker 3 (51:57):
That's correct. Yeah, classic, sweet. Yeah, they've got this style
over function.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
Sure. Actually they're big into function overfunction. They're they're an
equal measure of style.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
What's that aesthetic called hemma? The Swedish concept is this
aesthetic of living comfortably? We agree with it anyway. This
the thing with this smuggling of massive amounts of cocaine
is that they were not using real diplo bags. They
knew most people do not understand what those look like.
(52:32):
So they made a close counterfeit and it made it
all the way from Mexico City to New York City,
primarily because most people couldn't tell the difference, and they
got shook. They saw something that looked like a bag
they have maybe seen earlier, or looked like signage they
have maybe seen earlier, and they said, oh, okay, we
gotta you know, move this forward. It didn't get popped
(52:55):
until it made it all the way to the actual
United Nations.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Dude, Okay, let's talk about that. So if you put
a phone number on that bag, that is like a
lot of the other state department signage for diplomatic purposes,
like the ones that's on the license the licenses that
people carry, like the one that you can find on
a license plate on some state department issues cars. Sure,
(53:20):
you just call that number, and whoever's on the other end,
you ask questions or try and confirm is this bag legit?
And you probably, if you're like me who called like
one of these numbers earlier today, you just believe whatever
the person on the other end of the line says.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
So it could be a fake number.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
Yes, you just put a fake number, and now you just, oh,
this is that's kind of terrifying.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Well, unfortunately, I don't know if it works anymore. But
this was a great exploit and you absolutely nailed it.
There's also a log record of people pretending to be diplomats,
which is also cartoonishly easy, you know, if you've got
your vinegar about you.
Speaker 4 (54:03):
We do have to say, though, this.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
Is the part we really want to get to yes,
some individual diplomats and people we could call VIPs do
get away with stuff, a lot of stuff with very
few things in the way of actual consequences. And speaking
of crime, yes, individual diplomats and people we could call
(54:27):
VIPs do get away with stuff up to child abuse,
domestic violence, manslaughter, willful murder. It gets really dirty, really quick.
And that is going to be part two of our
series on diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
It feels right, there's just so much there and it's
really truly kind of plumbing the darker depths of this topic.
So please tune in for part two.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
In the meantime. Thank you so much for tuning in,
fellow conspiracy realist, diplomat, non diplomats, criminals and non criminals alike.
We can't thank you enough for your time. We want
to hear your thoughts, your experiences. Tell us if you've
ever seen a shady diplomatic pouch. We try to be
(55:15):
easy to find online. You can get us on the internet,
you can call us on a telephonic device. You can
even send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
I'd like to put forth that the producer and DJ
Diplo is missing out on a crucial merch opportunity. You
should have diplomatic pouches.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Are the pouches that play his songs when you open them?
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Maybe that's how you know it's real.
Speaker 4 (55:42):
Yes, exactly, And what are some ideas that you might
have for merchandising opportunities for DIPLO. You can write to
us all over the internet where conspiracy stuff on x FKA, Twitter,
on YouTube we have video content galore for your enjoyment.
And on Facebook with our Facebook group here's where it's crazy.
On Instagram and TikTok. However, we're conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
We have a phone number. You can call it right now.
It's one eight six six two one seven two o
eight nine. Oh wait no, sorry, that's the Diplomatic Security
Command Center.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
Call that one to leave them. You don't even have
to limit it three minutes.
Speaker 3 (56:22):
I call them all the time. Ask for Steve.
Speaker 2 (56:24):
Just actually, let's not harass the State Department has.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
Just check in with Steve's your reasonable questions.
Speaker 4 (56:34):
We're also lonely.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
They are available twenty four to seven.
Speaker 3 (56:38):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
If you want to call us, our number is one
eight three three st d w y t K. It's
a voicemail system. When you call in Please leave a
cool nickname for yourself and let us know within the
message if we can use your name and message on
the air. If you've got more to say than can
fit in a three minute message, why not instead send
us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (56:56):
We are the entities to read each piece, of course,
by fundance we receive. It does not have to be
a long email. It can be any length format that
you wish. We want to see those ancillery links. We
want to hear your favorite stories. We also always love
to hear recommendations for new episodes you feel your fellow
(57:18):
listeners may enjoy. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the
void writes back, so you can see us online. You're
not gonna catch us in vienna. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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