May 2, 2025 • 64 mins
OK, it's no secret that the law can apply differently to high-level diplomats and other government employees. But how far does this concept of immunity go? In the second chapter of this special two-part episode, Ben, Matt and Noel dive into intensely disturbing cases of crime, conspiracy, and geopolitical cover-ups.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noble.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. And folks, we are
returning to you after an Easter weekend as we record
(00:48):
on Monday, April twenty first, Happy for twenty to all
who celebrated another correlation of holidays there.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
It was a nice crossover.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Yeah, everyone was super mellow at the Easter egg Hugh
and also our ip the Pope.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Right, Pope Francis has passed away.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
I mean they're gonna have to do the whole thing
right with the white smoke, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
The Conclave, the black smoke if they don't reach a decision,
the white smoke when they find the new head of
the Catholic Church.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Did you all see the movie Conclave that was recently
I quite enjoyed it. I thought it was an interesting
way of really dramatizing that but not being too heavy handed.
If anyone hasn't seen it and want of insight into
the process we're about to go through in the news,
check it out.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Interesting. Yeah, because the Vatican is big with diplomatic immunity
ever since the Vienna Conventions.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Good tie in.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh, that's the thing we're talking about, diplomatic immunity now.
In our first chapter on this, we had we had
so much to get to because it's a I don't
know if it's surprising, but it is an ancient concept.
That is where the old trope don't kill the messenger
comes from. You know, imagine what was the example we had.
(02:04):
Let's see Matt and Noel as respective rulers of their lands,
and they had to make sure that the guy they
sent to talk to the other team was able to
send and deliver or was able to go and return safely.
That's what diplomatic immunity is supposed to.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Allow you to do, and at its heart it makes
a lot of sense for you know, perhaps opposing forces
to be able to communicate for the purposes of either
getting ready for a conflict or you know, hopefully maybe
hashing things out. But that kind of dispensation for an
individual carrying important matters of state between these two factions,
(02:50):
it's very important for both parties for that individual to
be considered off limits in terms of you know, immediate retributions,
like y'all will have your time, let's work things out
and figure out some parameters and then we can murder
each other.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, there are a lot of moments to which are
are frankly cinematic, even though this is the real world.
I'm always reminded of the copaganda shows where someone gets
busted for criminal activity and they get into you know,
the the interrogation room and they say, actually, I'm an
undercover cop. Because there have been cases where people claim
(03:30):
diplomatic immunity and appear to be civilians which don't get
that special dispensation or indulgence.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Dare we say that's a good that's a good word
for it, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's an indulgence. You know, Catholics are Catholicism is in
our minds today. It's the idea or there have been
moments where a government will say, okay, we have you
dead to rights, right, you know, where the government of
Pakistan you shot to people walked up to your car,
(04:01):
you shot one of them in the back, and then
they say, actually, I have diplomatic immunity. What, No, you don't.
You're a You're just an it guy.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, yeah, if you're an it guy for the State Department,
then perhaps there is something to discuss there, because there
are many a civilian looking person that worked for the
for any country, state department that end up in situations.
But as we talked about in the first episode, usually
diplomatic immunity is a thing that is stated to some
(04:34):
responding officer, like the initial encounter with some law enforcement
no matter where you are, that's when a card comes
out a card.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Yeah, you talked about the pouch and all of that,
but there are obviously very well established credentials that one
could produce, absolutely encounter.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Absolutely and to be considered a working diplomat. You are
issue credentials for your time in the country that you're
that you're working in, right, and.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
A one time thing like per use kind of it's okay.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
It gets your credentials expire when you move on to
a different country. So in the case of the US
State Department, it's there's a thing where you you serve
essentially a tour for a few years in one country.
Then you move to another country. Your diplomatic credentials follow
(05:29):
with you country per country, So you can't like, you
can't do a number of years in Ghana and then
just on a lark go back to Ghana and say, yeah,
I'm not paying parking tickets.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
You can't just hop around.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
There's no like diplomatic community, tourist package or whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I mean.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
You are typically stationed somewhere for a time and then
are reassigned, you know, and this is all above board,
at least in terms of the issuing government, the issuing country, right, yeah, correct.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It should be noted that it's funny. We talked about
it before, like when you're talking about an embassy and
diplomats and a consulate and consoles. One thing we didn't
bring up last time are honorary consoles.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I love an honorary anything. Well, yes, it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Honorary consoles aka shadow diplomats is something Pro Publica talked
about a few years ago and we mentioned it. We
we talked about like what is that, What the heck
is an honorary console and how does that work? And
what kind of vetting process goes into making someone an
honorary console for a country.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Is it like getting an honorary degree where you're a
luminary in some field and they're just like, this guy
clearly could be a huge boon to us in terms
of diplomacy, right is that?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I like? I like that comparison because it is shadow
diplomacy is a part of diplomacy. It is murky. It's
such a as weird as it sounds in twenty twenty five.
A lot of this stuff goes down to like gentlemen agreements,
you know what I mean. We have a special relationship
(07:08):
with the United Kingdom. We're sorry this kid died, but
we're going to work out some stuff, or in Pakistan
where the US will pay the blood price or called
da under Sharia law. But yeah, there's so much this
and I love that we're pointing out, you know, at
the very beginning, as he said, no, diplomatic immunity is
(07:31):
supposed to be a protective measure to allow diplomats freedom
of movement and activity. The most common example of diplomatic
immunity being abused is parking violations, and it's hilarious and
sometimes not paying taxes. The parking violation thing is hilarious
(07:52):
because at some point, even when an embassy racks up
tens of thousands of dollars of park tickets, at some
point there are very high level conversations between two governments
where they say, Okay, this guy parks like a dick,
but we can't make this world War three.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's true. We talked about last episode, a
guy who had a bunch of these parking violations racked up,
got a dui, and then finally his embassy basically said,
you got to get out of here. Oh and you
got to pay all those back parking.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Tickets, right right, Yeah, indeed, Yeah, immunity in your destination
country is not the same thing. Well, we'll get into
this man. It gets so, it gets so crazy and spoiler,
you know, the problem runs much deeper than parking tickets.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
And maybe this is off base to do here, but
I figured, from my own edification, I get it out
of the way. I think it might be fun to
talk quickly about the difference between a diplomat, an ambassador,
and a dignitary. Right, So it's like, while all ambassadors
are diplomats, not all diplomats are ambassadors. Ambassadors are like
the high mucky muck of diplomats representing a country attending
(09:11):
public kind of facing things right.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Absolutely, like how all mazes or puzzles, right, not all
puzzles or mazes.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
And a dignitary could be an ambassador and may have
diplomatic immunity or be accompanied by diplomats, But a dignitary
is more a foreign visitor to a country who holds
high rank of some kind, whether in.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
The medlary of the government. Yeah, dignitary could just be
someone who, through genetic accident, is a member of an
aristocratic system, right, And that's how it used to go
in earlier evenings. So that's part of why diplomatic immunity exists,
because the first diplomats were like the siblings and the
cousins of the king, you.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Know, yeah, sometimes like proving themselves by being the one
that gets sort of pushed forth to like give the
bad news.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
That is funny.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
Then even in fiction you see that a lot where
like the nephew or the son of the king will
appear in court to the opposition to make known the
intentions or wishes of you know, whom he represents.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
The Habsburg say, we've got to talk to this foreign power.
Which one of us has the least weird chin.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I have to say, guys, while we've been having this conversation,
I've been delighted watching Nole's camera. For everybody listening, Noel
has a new cool camera and.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
It moves, ye moves and zooms, and there's.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
A portrait behind Nole's head kind of to his right,
and it keeps I think it keeps seeing that portrait
as a person standing behind Nol, and it keeps trying
to reframe.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
For it's I could stand up and.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Look literally track me all the way to a standing position.
If anyone wants to nerd out with a sick monitor,
the Apple Studio display is expensive, but it's really really
cool and I'll never need another monitor again.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
They are not paying us to say that fans the monitor.
With this, let's take a quick word from our sponsors,
and let's see just how deeply problematic and conspiratorial diplomatic
immunity can become. Here are the facts. Please, please please,
(11:28):
fellow conspiracy realists, check out our first chapter of this
series before continuing, as we'll call in that exploration, we
talked about the ancient roots of what we call diplomatic
immunity today, and we talk about some crucial misconceptions. We're
gonna recap these briefly just to pop the top tonight,
(11:48):
because look, no judgment, but if you are diplomatic staff
in the audience this evening, I think we can all
agree it's better to know about these things in advance.
And you know, we hope you never find yourself in
a situation where knowing these misconceptions applies. I think the
(12:10):
first one we got a bust, and Matt you alluded
to it a little bit earlier. Not everyone gets this superpower.
Not everyone gets full or even partial immunity. If you just.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Trap are different.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Okay, well, it's like all the conversation and caveated and loophold,
and we'll get to some specific cases, but the main
takeaway is that if you do not have the official cosign,
you cannot one hundred percent assume that your origin country
(12:45):
will support you'll back you up.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But there are instances where some
form of diplomatic community will get you out of like
you said, parking tickets, but like a moving violation if
you're speeding to a certain extent in certain states, even
if you have immunity, you're still going to have to
go to court to face those charges because that is
not a part of your official duties.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Right, That's one of the other that's one of the
other misconceptions. I'm glad we're bringing that up. So look,
if you are not granted this superpower, which most people
don't possess, it doesn't matter what's legal in your origin country.
If you are safe. If you are from a place
(13:28):
where cannabis is decriminalized or even fully legal, and you
travel to a place where it's not legal, you're still
in trouble. You can't be like, I'm sorry, you know
me and mar or whatever. I apologize Singapore, but weed
is fine in Portland.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Well question or just made me example.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
I have a friend who owned that name, but did
get detained in an Asian country in Korea, right was
Korea for having a weed vape. And it was right
when there is a big kerfuffle and the changeover in
the government there, and so this individual.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Was held for a day.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I want to say, but like the moment that that
shuffle happened, they were released. I'm wondering if you know,
even if you're not a diplomat, you are a citizen
of another country, and there are almost always an opportunity
for that to be an act of diplomacy of some kind,
to either mess with or not mess with someone from
(14:28):
another country, depending on the nature of your relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Right, yeah, many factors go into this. People, anyone can
become a pawn right on the board. We've seen a
piece of leverage. We have seen many multiple times. We
also know, to your point earlier that you raised Matt
this this get out of jail free card. This actual immunity,
(14:53):
like the high level immunity, it applies to top notch staff,
the bigger family of dogs and there families UH and ambassadors.
And part of the part of the reasonable see is
that's simply a necessity of state craft. But even if
you have this immunity, even if you are the ambassador
or family member of UH, you know, the ambassador's crew,
(15:16):
a member of the ambassador's family, say, yeah, the protection
only technically applies in the course of your official duties.
So let's say you are the US ambassador to UH.
Let's pick a random country. When we don't talk about Oftenswana.
(15:37):
It's perfect. And also I love Ladies Detective Agency.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
That one was great.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Yes, I forgot all about that with Jill Scott, who
we had a podcast with here on the network for
quite a little while.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
So you're the US ambassador to Botswana. For some reason,
in addition to your duties, you picked up a side
hustle where you're stealing Pokemon cards and bulk. You're just
you're lifting the trucks. You're hoisting them, just like that
meat heist, and they fell off the trucks.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Sure, all right, it sounds like a shadow diplomat, So all.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Right, all right, all right, which which ironically is also
the name of a Pokemon.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
So if you get caught boosting all these Pokemon cars
sweet sweet Poke, Yeah, then yeah, boosting these boosters. Uh,
if you've got mad boosties like Jack and Miles, then
you have to you would have to explain somehow why
boosting truckloads of sweet Pokemon merch is part of your
(16:41):
job as the ambassador. First off, how do you find
the time of the day. But secondly, how would you
explain that? It sounds cut and dry. But then to
that earlier point we made, there's so many other complicated
intervening factors. They're not really asking whether or not you
committed a that's that's fine, that happens, you know what
(17:03):
I mean, that's a conversation somewhere else. But the next
questions in that conversation are going to be, like, do
we have any sensitive deals between the two countries? Does
rocking the boat? Like does does dying on this hill
or fighting for the good grace of Pokemon? Is that
going to mess up our pipeline, our telecom deal?
Speaker 5 (17:24):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And to think about it.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
And it's pretty gross and cliche.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
But an example that always seems to come up and
fictionalized accounts of these type of exchanges are like someone
has killed a sex worker, you know, in a hotel room,
and they know, and we have to either decide is
this person so high level and valuable that we're going
to cover it up for them?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Right?
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Like it's it's it's almost a joke.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Right right, And sometimes sometimes people choose pretty strident solutions
to those conversations. Another thing, is there a quid pro quote?
Is there an opportunity in the chaos, you know, we
could maybe swap some prisoners, or swap some tourists or whatever.
Does if we're one country, do we want something from
(18:12):
the other. Could we leverage this criminal case to help
us in that conversation, like we want a different kind
of trade deal, tariff regimen. So maybe Johnny Blue jeans,
my favorite, doesn't have to get booked for murder. Yeah,
(18:32):
it's it's weird. They all come into play. The third
misconception that we cannot emphasize over emphasize is that your immunity,
even if you have, you know, premium plus America immunity,
it can be revoked no matter who you are. You
push the envelope too far and you can get cut loose.
(18:53):
And this always the way this happens is. Let's say
there's a serious crime, domestic abuse, money laundry via diplomatic pouches,
which we shouted out earlier, and I think we're all
still fascinated with the destination country, the country where that
crime occurred or where that diplomat is supposed to be working.
(19:13):
They can make a phone call, sort of like your
friend's parents at a sleepover can call your parents if
you're misbehaving at the sleepover, and they can say when
the country's called, they say, look, can you guys just
tell us, this person does not have diplomatic immunity, And
sometimes the other country will say, yeah, wait, truckloads of pokemon.
(19:38):
Forget that guy.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
No, no, too much, a bridge too far, bridge too far.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, And we talked about an example of that where
a woman was caught shoplifting and she happened to be
the spouse of a diplomat, so she had diplomatic immunity
through his employment with the state department or some state department,
and she was not arrested, but the state department was notified,
and so basically they then said, actually, you don't have
(20:07):
immunity from this specific thing.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
She did end up getting.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
In quite a bit of trouble for stealing three thousand
dollars worth of stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Which at that let you don't need to why she
wasn't doing it to eat. Yeah, it was shoplifting. It's
such a weird one. That's an excellent example. We also
have to note that countries can be hesitant to waive immunity.
First off, not all spouses and family members get tucked
(20:37):
up into diplomatic immunity. It can vary due to a
number of factors. But if like let's imagine we're the
United States, and tri Force is president, best president in
recent history. Obviously, thank you for your service, Andrew. Your
(20:57):
administration is not going to be super open to waving
immunity in general, because it can set a precedent. You
want the people who work for you to know that
they do have some degree of protection. Otherwise it feels
like you're throwing people to the wolves.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
So even the term immunity also of course makes one
think of immunity in testifying, like in court cases. Right,
it's just sort of like that usually almost always is
a quid pro quo situation, right where they're like, you
do something for us, and we're going to make sure
that you're not in trouble or that you're get a
lesser sentence or whatever. But even immunity is more than that, Like,
(21:39):
it's more than just getting a lesser sentence. Usually it
involves testifying against somebody so that the things that you
do are not going to prevent you from doing that,
and that you are able to have a clean slate
even though you are known.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
To have perhaps colluded with said individual or charges.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, that's true, lesser charges. Yeah, So it be immunity
from something like in a case, community from maybe the
death penalty or we're not going to get you on
this level of racketeering.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Full immunity, however, would probably be rare, and maybe more
of the stuff of you know, TV procedurals.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
It can happen. You know, it's happened. Shout out paper clip,
a couple of things, a couple of other related things
from World War Two. But yeah, you're absolutely on the
money there, man, because if you grant full immunity, it
is almost always a kind of payment for services rendered.
Help us get the bigger fish, quid pro quo. Look,
(22:35):
if the home country does not waive immunity, which they
often will not, then the destination country still has a
couple of other rabbits in the top hat. The most prominent,
of course, is declaring an individual persona non grata, which
is the fancy Latin way of saying you're not welcome here,
(22:56):
go away. It could happen to civilians as well, but
when it happens to diplomats it usually also bundles in
things like revoking their diplomatic credentials and expelling them from
the country. Also, if you're declared persona and on grata
in a country, you can't stay there. You know what
I mean. You don't have to go home, but you
(23:18):
can't stay in Nepal or whatever.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
You know, was that semisonic supersonic semisonic?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I mean, oh, closing time, hmm.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
Stay here.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah. This idea of expulsion or persona no grata important
to note that is entirely the destination country's decision. They
can make it at any time. They don't need approval
from the home country of a diplomat. When we saw,
you know, the outbreak of the newest iteration of Russia's
(23:55):
war against Ukraine and their invasion thereof there was internet
furor and a lot of Russian diplomats were just expelled.
Nobody was asking the home country of Russia to really
wave immunity. They just kick the people out and it's
their decision. So immunity is not as sacro sanct as
(24:20):
we might think it is. And the last, maybe the
most important point is if you successfully claim diplomatic immunity
in one country, that does not mean that you're free
from all consequences. You might get away with some very
unclean evil stuff in say like the Japanese diplomat in
(24:43):
Canada that we mentioned earlier, right, domestic violence case. But
then you get kicked out, you get the boot, you
get shipped back home, and you have consequences in your
home country. In this guy's case in Japan, you get demoted,
you might face criminal charges in your country of origin.
(25:03):
All they did was move you to a different justice system,
a system to which you are not, in this case immune.
There you go. And so again, despite all these loopholes,
these caveats, these asterisks, there's no escaping. A diplomatic community
is powerful, it's necessary. I also think it purposely bakes
(25:26):
in a window of time, right, everybody saying, don't act
too rashly, give us some time to go through this.
You know, if there wasn't immunity on some level, there
wouldn't be anything stopping a hostile country from just rounding
up foreign ministry or embassy staff whenever they please and
(25:49):
then making charges to support their agenda. That's true, that's true.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Well, yeah, because we talked about in the past, in
the way way past, especially before those conventions, you could
just you could round up everybody and accuse them of
being spies, right, And that still occurs these days where
diplomats are kicked out unceremoniously from countries when their country
(26:15):
of origin is in some way embroiled in a conflict,
whether cold, hot or you know what, lukewarm, I guess,
uh yeah, countries will just say, hey, you have to
get out now. That happened with the United States and
Cuba not that long ago. That's the last one I
can remember. But I know that there's other stuff happening
(26:36):
even right now, where because of all of the trade
war that's happening, some diplomatic relationships are being highly strained
and potentially moving.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
That reminds me, when are we going to Hong Kong?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You were going to Hong Kong whenever you please?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Or but this, Yeah, and that's a great example. We
also see that again with European governments and Russian diplomats
right often related to windows stumbles or polonium underwear, but
more so related recently to the invasion of Ukraine. In
(27:16):
this power that is diplomatic community, it's a superpower, we
also see opportunity for crime, corruption, and conspiracy. So tonight,
what happens when this gets misused? What happens when things
go wrong We're going to pause for a word from
our sponsors, who are hopefully the State Department, and we'll
(27:36):
be back. Here's where it gets crazy. We previously talked
about we sort of categorized it into different types of corruption.
The first one is that people might not follow the rules.
(27:57):
The second one is that members of diplomatic state can
knowingly use their position to aid and a bet or
originate criminal acts. One thing we didn't talk about earlier
in chapter one is the nebulous gray area. So we
mentioned that people will do People will only get diplomatic
(28:19):
immunity technically if it's in the course of their official employment.
So riddle me this, guys. Does diplomatic immunity apply to
acts of trade craft of espionage?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So well, I guess it depends on what they're caught for.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Right and who you're asking. Right. On the one hand, right,
if you're the origin country, you could say internally, this
does qualify as an act carried out in the course
of an employment period. This is a job, right. But
on the other hand, if you are the destination country
where these shenanigans occur and you catch a foreign spine,
(29:02):
that's probably a crime.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, Well, wherever it's occurring for sure. Well, it's one
of those things. Are you Are you working for the
state Department for some private industry from for some private company,
and are you.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Our contractor how does that work?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, yeah, but you're let's say you're copying files and
putting them onto a drive of some sort to transfer somewhere.
But as a part of your official job for that
private company, you're just doing your job. You're also just
doing your job as your employment for the State Department?
Is what part of that could be argued as like
(29:39):
not being part of your official duties? You know, like
and is that just the espionage?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
But that's the word too official, is it not? You
know what I mean? The US Administration comes back and says,
holy smokes, we're just as surprised as you. This was
Ori T guy. He's there to like turn on on
the server.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah, I know, you're you're absolutely right. But what
if you are just driving to a destination, right? Is
that a part of your official duties, driving to where
you're supposed to function and.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
You just happen to have a telescope, some scissors, a
couple pieces of cloth, GPS system, that's all off the books.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, but they can't search your car because you've got immunity.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Right, that's why you throw it out while you're driving away.
This is we're alluding to a specific case. But yeah,
you're absolutely right, Matt. As ever, you know, in these situations,
countries will often come together, right, work out a deal,
grab some coffee in Vienna, what the hell have you?
(30:44):
And the way this gets us to something we talked
about so often in the past and remains true regardless
of where you live. You as a member of the public,
as a domestic populace, your government speaks very differently to
you than your government speaks to other governments behind closed doors.
(31:06):
In general, people don't want to rock the boat. They're
very smart at this level. They have dozens hundreds of
other factors to consider, and that's why you know you'll
see people do crimes and the worst thing that happens
is they get expelled. The countries that expel diplomats are
(31:26):
genuinely concerned that if they crack down too hard, they
are going to be economic consequences. Other countries are going
to say, we're not sending our people here, and then
that spells disaster for goodwill. Perhaps more immediately it spells
disaster for trade agreements. So that's really what goes on
(31:47):
trial or in consideration.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, and that's when the tariffs begin.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's so weird, man, Like, it's surreal, it's infuriating, and
it bothers me. Like, let's say you are running a country.
Your law enforcement has someone dead to rights, like they
know they were digging dirt. This insert embassy employee here
is not what they seem right, and they're breaking the
(32:14):
laws of our country. But we can't do anything because
we need this telecom deal, right, we need this pipeline.
We've got so many you know, pistachios to ship abroad
or whatever it may be. That's the trickiest part. People
can get away with crimes, and even when they are punished,
the consequences they encounter can be extremely different from those
(32:38):
of the average civilian criminal. So maybe we talk about
some specific examples, you know, getting away with murder. People
do get away with a lot way pass, parking tickets,
cases of child abuse, domestic violence, manslaughter. We're naming specific
we're referencing specific cases. And in each of those specific
(33:02):
genres of case we're referencing, there's more than one example.
So with these considerations, yes, in theory, a diplomat of
a certain level could murder someone purposely or through negligence.
They could refuse to be arrested, they could skip down.
In practice, that doesn't prevent them from being judged sometimes
(33:24):
in absentia, sometimes as we'll see remotely, like imagine appearing
to court via video. And at this point we see
all those soft factors we mentioned previously. We also see
the idea, as cold as it sounds, of taking a
tragedy and engineering from that tragedy and opportunity. Could we
(33:46):
have some sort of prisoner trade, a mutual extradition agreement.
This brings us to the case of Harry Dunn from
August twenty seven, twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, Harry Dunn is on a motorcycle and he is
traveling down the road. He is in the United Kingdom,
so he is traveling on the left side of the
road as Yeah, as he's making his way. It's a kid.
It's already a dangerous situation being on a motorcycle right well,
as he's traveling down the road as he should be,
(34:19):
someone is traveling towards him on his side of the road,
so they are traveling on the right side of the road,
which is wrong way traffic in the UK, and this
person strikes him with their vehicle and he is ultimately
killed because of the accident, I guess the collision as
(34:41):
you would call that. And then after the driver of
the vehicle flags down some others is attempting to get help.
Then it has found out that this forty five year
old woman, and Seculas has this thing called diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
The US argues that she has this thing called diplomatic immunity.
The United Kingdom disagrees. Harry Dunn is not doing bad stuff.
He's driving on the right side of the road. He's
a kid who likes his motorcycle. Seculis is married to
a CIA employee who at the time is stationed as
(35:30):
at a listening station raf Crowton, and Seculis claim does
cooperate with police, right does try to help this help
make things not a fatality. But young Harry Dunn does
expire at the major trauma center in Oxford, the John
(35:51):
Radcliffe Hospital, And when Seculis is speaking with police, we
know that we know that things were a little murky
at the beginning. There were a lot of conversations, because again,
the idea of being the spouse of a diplomat hinges
(36:14):
onto negotiable variables. Right, First, is the diplomat high level
enough to get that kind of family protection? Second, do
both countries agree that person counts as a diplomat.
Speaker 5 (36:29):
And are the privileges exactly the same every time? Or
is there no?
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Kay, I didn't think so.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
I mean for the spouse, like, they don't automatically get
all of the same protections as the actual facts diplomat.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
It depends on the level, you know, like if you're
the ambassador level, then there will be more privileges afforded,
and it really is a privilege. So this is the thing.
Secoolest admits that she's driving on the wrong side of
the road. This is further confirmed by CCTV footage. No
(37:05):
one is arguing that she did not do this, that
she was not responsible for this fatal collision. Instead, everyone
is frantically trying to figure out what happens next. So
Coolest doesn't really wait, I mean, she talks with police,
she cooperates, right, but then she claims diplomatic immunity. She
skips town and before this makes her sound like an
(37:27):
utter villain, because I'm sure many of us have never
heard the name before. She likely took these actions on
the explicit orders of the US government. They told her
what to do, she did what they said. She wasn't
becoming some kind of international ghost.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
No, but it certainly didn't look great at the time,
because it is essentially somebody leaving the scene of you know,
a homicide.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Or well not just the scene in the country.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, but it's just somebody who got
out got out right when when trouble arose and she
did something really really wrong. It's my understanding though, that
then the United States and the United Kingdom we're working
together to say, hey, what can we do here? Like
this seems weird? Like what is this loophole being a
(38:18):
she's an analyst, but she's a spouse of this diplomat,
So why she has community? What do we do?
Speaker 3 (38:23):
She's the spouse of a guy we the US consider
a diplomat for these purposes.
Speaker 5 (38:28):
Yes, actually, probably was she just confused about what country
she is?
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Then wow, wow, she left intoxicated.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Well I don't understand. No, no, it doesn't seem to
be intoxication. There was a breathalyzer deployed on the scene.
Looks more like she was leaving the base and perhaps
doing distracted driving. There was actually a prior issue with
distracted driving here in the US a few years prior,
I see, and they'd only been in only been in
the UK about three weeks.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
This is a quote from her. As I turned out
of the exit from the Air Force base, taking a
left turn, I instinctively moved to the right side of
the road.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
She was confused about what country she was in.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Well, well, she said, I knew that the proper side
of the road to drive was the left side, not
the right side, as I was accustomed to driving in
the US. My action was based on instinct and not
recalling in the moment that I should should have been
driving on the other.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Side and maybe be on your phone, maybe maybe be
that's if you look at the case, that's what they're arguing.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
I've never had to drive in the UK, but I
do every time I see it in a film or
a TV show.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
Whatever I do, my mind does like recoils a little bit.
Like I do.
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Think there would be situations where it would be easy
to follow that muscle memory and just kind of screw up.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Of course, yeah, especially if you are you know, you're
newly minted in this place with a different set of
literal rules of the road. The important thing is the
government of the Unining Kingdom was in continual contact with
the government of the United States after this collision occurred.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
And did we say she went to the US.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yes, she's skipped out, but to the US.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Yeah, so she not is some malicious kind of fleeing
the scene kind of why.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
No, No, the US government told her to do that
and she followed those instructions, the US and the British government. Also,
this is a thing that didn't get reported immediately. The
British government was aware of this and they were like,
you can see text messages whether we're speaking with each other,
and the Foreign Minister was saying, look, we don't We
(40:37):
asked you guys to wave immunity and you said no,
we don't approve of this individual leaving the country. We
have strong reservations. But since you refused to waive immunity
and she claimed diplomatic immunity, we are not going to
prevent her from boarding the next flight home. And that's
exactly what happened. And as the case winds on, there's
(41:02):
a lot of tension between the UK and the US.
The British public is asking more and more questions. Journalists
over in the UK, who are pretty great at their jobs,
they verify that Seculas is how did they they had
to be so careful at first? Because they're reporting laws?
(41:23):
She was quote previously involved with the CIA somehow associated.
Like we're not saying you're in Wu Tang, but you
hang out with Riza a.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Lot, are you? You are kind of in it for
a little while.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
We're to say, you know, previously associated. It's it's terrible
because imagine you know, the family of this poor, unfortunate kid,
Harry Dunn.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
They're really pushing and they're asking really valley questions like
why do the laws seem to be different for this person?
In particular? Is the government of the United Kingdom giving
this person special protection? And why won't they tell us
exactly what's happening there in the UK right? Why can't
(42:20):
we get the full disclosure? These are questions that just
make the case look worse and worse.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Well, yeah, and so she ends up appearing via video
at the inquest what is known as there and she
talks about all of this stuff. She's still in the
United States. The United States refuses to extradite her to
the UK to actually stand physical trial, to be there,
as they call live give live evidence there, and she
(42:50):
ends up pleading guilty right in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, in October of twenty twenty two, via a remote
video appearance in the UK court, she pleads guilty and
she is sentenced to eight months in jail, suspended for
twelve months. She's beenned from driving for twelve months. The
entire time. The dun family is not happy with this,
and I love that you're mentioning that pre existing UK
(43:15):
US extradition treaty, which is a real thing. We have
to remember the context in which this occurs. At this time,
the UK is still refusing to extradite Wicked Leak's founder,
Julian Assange. So the dun family, or i should say
their legal team went to the UK government and said, well,
(43:37):
what about this, Why don't you say give us skulas
and you can have Assange, at which point the UK
government apparently went oh pishposh.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, well yeah, but yes, imagine that somebody kills your
child and you go through all of that for years.
It's been three almost four years. Yeah, you're going through
all of this legal stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Massive protest by the way.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah yeah. But then finally there is a there is
a legal plea of guilty from the person that killed
your son, but they're still in a different country and
the judge cannot enforce any sentence on the person that
killed your son because they're in a different country.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, they have no jurisdiction and that's issue, and that's it. Yeah,
reminds us of our earlier episode on Saudi fugitives in
the United States. You can see all sorts of Shenanig
and ree Shanan. And if you allow people to uh
(44:45):
Shanan once.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
What happens Shenani once again?
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Once again? For an even murcurer case. We could check out,
well just for time. I don't know how far we're
going to get into it, but do you check out
what is called the Raymond Alan Davis incident with a
guy in Pakistan, US national later revealed to be a
CIA contractor, and it gets super dirty, super quick. Oh yeah,
(45:14):
it's an episode all its own out, but argume it.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
You can go back and listen to our episode. Oh
I don't know if it was on the Saudi Arabian
thing we talked about. I think the dude was from Qatar,
sa Muhammad Almani. It was a yeah, Katari diplomat in
the US. There was a lawsuit of some sort filed
by people who said they were being kept at his
(45:40):
palatial mansion.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Over in Beverly Hills or something.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yeah, to work basically as indentured servants there.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
And it was the one lady who managed to scale
the wall.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, exactly, because there were allegations of sexual assault and
all kinds of other stuff happening along with the you know,
the terrible human trafficking stuff. So it's just there's all
kinds of examples like this where a human being is covered,
usually by a country.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Yeah, and how about this, let's take a let's take
a break for a word from our sponsors, and then
let's let's explore some of those KSA Kingdom of Saudi
Arabia cases in specific other types of immunity in shenanigans.
Speaker 4 (46:33):
And we've returned.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
So we're not saying that every single high level diplomat
is out to do crimes. This is this is absolutely
not the case. But it is important to remember and
inarguably true that they do have a higher chance of
getting away with some type of crime than your average
(46:54):
person or tourists in another country. A diplomat is essentially
a an officer of another country who is in a
different country under the protection of their home country, with
an agreement, you know, between that country and the country
they're in. So they are more than an individual. They
are afforded more rights and privileges.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
I don't just you know, I'm not here just as
Ben Winter. I am here as a representative of the
crowd for our conversations. Right now, I am the crown,
right There's an autonomy to this, especially.
Speaker 5 (47:32):
An ambassador or some sort of you know, high level dignitary.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
So that means, yeah, just like you're saying Noel, that
means any conflict or issue with that individual immediately becomes
a state level problem, you know what I mean. Now,
we're not just locking up some joker for loose Pokemon cards.
Now we're locking up in a way the United States government.
(48:00):
So we got to figure this out.
Speaker 5 (48:01):
Do you guys think in the way that we always
joke about loose diamonds and go bags for folks that
are about to go on the run. Do you think
there's anyone that just has really really valuable Pokemon cards
in there? Hell yeah, I think there must be. There
have to made matter cards whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah, full mock sets. I love that you dropped Ben Winter.
M hm. That makes me very happy.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
So we have we have other cases of immunity that
we I think we want to get to. Matt, you
you mentioned an episode that I think really really stuck
with all three of us. Back in twenty twenty, we
asked why does the US have such a terrible track
record letting Saudi fugitives flee the country even if they
(48:47):
are so not convicted of crimes, but accused of crimes, right,
maybe made a court appearance and then made bail because
they're not hurting for money. Right. In this investigation, we
discovered undeniable proof that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has,
on multiple occasions in the US and in other countries,
(49:07):
exercised state level power to extradite, to rescue Saudi nationals
who are not diplomats, who are in some case just
like might be college students a little after college. Right,
they're not high level ambassadors. We're not talking about this.
We're talking about people accused of human trafficking, sexual abuse,
(49:30):
up to and including murder, and in each of these
cases from that episode, we found that the KSA has
loosely put a different interpretation of diplomatic immunity. They used
proxy funding, straight up state funding to do stuff like
provide clean passports, sometimes under different identities, which is a
(49:53):
real supermove, to provide funding to secure bail if there
was a court a period, and as soon as bail
was made, KSA immediately transported these folks outside of that
destination or host country, like private plane, you know what
I mean, off to the races. These folks don't wait
(50:15):
in line at the security checkpoint. It also did not
nine to eleven whatever, keep it.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
Oh that's right, No, I remember that there being some
hay made about that. Yeah, about like certain diplomats receiving
much more preferential treatments, you know, in a situation that
was absolute pandemonium.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Specifically from saudio behavior. You even some family members of
the guard that they said masterminded the whole thing. It's cool,
it's fine, everything's fine.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Let's see a little podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Hey, black bagged shadow diplomats, guys, this is really fun
honorary consoles. Well, please everyone, if you have time, please please,
please please please head over to pro Publica and read
a December twenty second, twenty twenty two article titled shadow
diplomats have posed a threat For decades, the world's governments
(51:11):
looked the other way. This is a fantastic article written
by Debbie sen Zipper and several others from various reporting outlets,
and this thing goes deep into people, including a shadow
diplomat slash honorary console to the United States from guess where,
(51:33):
guess where? Name of country?
Speaker 4 (51:35):
What did we say earlier?
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Botswana? Yes, just this is the guy working in the
United States on the behalf of Botswana. And it, like
the top of the article details how this guy was
doing some weird stuff, paying off officials to basically as
a bribe essentially that then would change where some pension
funds went. And then he made like one point two
(51:58):
to one point three million dollars off the top of
the deal. And nobody officially vetted this guy, at.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Least I I had to step out for a second.
This is our honorary console.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yep, yeah, mister Robert Shoemake, Yeah, yeah, A very very
interesting person and with Bob. Yeah, I don't know how
he's doing right now. He could not be reached for
comment back in December twenty twenty two. But I do
know just in this article, it discusses how there are
an estimated one one hundred honorary consoles from different countries
(52:33):
in the United States operating within the US right now,
or at least at that time. There's more or less
who knows at this very moment in twenty twenty five.
But this title operates much in the same way that
all the other ones do. Where you've got a diplomatic
pouch that can't be searched, you can't go to their
office and search it the way you would some other place.
(52:55):
If it is officially, you know, labeled as such and
with the correct stuff, you officially can't wire tap them.
Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it's international law to protect
these folks. But the biggest question that's put forth in
this article shadow Diplomat's opposed a threat for decades is
(53:17):
how are these individuals vetted? And then how is the
State Department of the United States specifically aware of these
honorary consoles in operation? And they found that it wasn't
it I think it was twenty seventeen was the last
time they had even checked on official records of who
(53:38):
is operating in the US as honorary consoles from other countries,
Like they took a five year span in between just
checking to see who's operating.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
And it's the DOS response to this, if I recall,
because I remember this being a huge hullabloo, thank you
for your service pro publica. I remember the state departments
idea or their argument in defense of this was to say, hey,
this is a very large, complicated situation or miliu, and
(54:13):
they essentially said they don't They implied they don't have
the funding to do a detailed review of everybody. So
they're saying, despite the fact that this is a very
powerful position background checks. I don't know, man, just tell
us if the ViBe's good.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Well yeah, well, mister Shoemate, the guy that we just
talked about had been in big trouble in two thousand
and two. He lost his real estate license for all
kinds of under the table junk he was doing. He
got in big, big trouble a couple years after that,
and then he just happens to be operating in the
US it's this honorary diplomat.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
We love tourism.
Speaker 4 (54:50):
Man.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Oh, there's a thing called the Office of Foreign Missions,
which is something I didn't know about. They put out
statements at the time of this investigation they're talking about.
This is what they say. The Department has zero tolerance
for evidence of inappropriate activity by any member of a
foreign mission, including honorary consoles.
Speaker 3 (55:12):
I love that very pursuit of happiness. I remember reading that.
So the office has zero tolerance not for criminal acts,
but for evidence of cridminal acts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
remember that meeting. Yeah, man, this is this is crazy.
I think maybe we do a third episode in this
series just on shadow diplomacy. What say you?
Speaker 4 (55:33):
Oh yeah, absolutely, this.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
Stuff is nuts and there's so many examples they give.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
In guys, and they're from the past. So maybe in
our in our in our mission, on our continuing on
our continuing knowledge, heist, maybe our mission is to find
active shadow diplomats, which is legal to do. It's legal
to ask that.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
There's a dude for from the Czech Republic who was
an honorary console in two thousand and five, he tried
to avoid paying taxes in Michigan, and Ohio on a
sixteen thousand square foot home near Detroit.
Speaker 3 (56:13):
Yeah, and it's like the de thousand at that point
just started church man, you know the game. We will
make it so easy in this country.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Well, he said the property was owned by the Czech government.
It was transferred to the Czech government for the United
States government cannot enforce any taxes high right.
Speaker 3 (56:32):
I think we've all been in that situation. You tried
to do a couple moves as April approaches, Which government did?
Which government? Did you seed your house? Do you met?
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Oh Botswana?
Speaker 3 (56:44):
Of course, of course, yes. This episode is brought to
you by Botswada. Don't have the time to get into
some other cases of things like diplomatic immunity, particularly a
case that is always he's really haunted us, which we
talked about briefly in our Uncaught serial Killers episode is
(57:06):
Essay Sagawa. This guy is a the Quick Skinny. This
is not appropriate for all audience members. The Quick Skinny
is in nineteen eighty one in Paris, France. This guy,
who is not a diplomat but the son of a
very powerful industrial family in Japan. He murders a classmate
(57:26):
and he proceeds to mutilate and defile the cadaver, and
he consumes pieces of the corpse, consumes pieces of the flesh.
He is dead to rights. He definitely did it, but
his wealthy family pushes the needle, so instead of going
to French prison, he goes to a psychiatric institution. A
(57:46):
few years later, the family in Japan push again. He
has deported back to Japan. He's declared saying all the
paperwork regarding his case is lost, and he lives the
rest of his life is a minor celebt, completely free.
He didn't pass away until twenty twenty two, so he
was alive while we were making this show. And he's
(58:07):
a very evil person who got something like immunity. Because
I feel like what this teaches us the most troubling
thing is in the world of international intrigue, we are
again and again like the lesson is hammered home. The
crime itself is not as important as who you are
(58:27):
when that crime is committed.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
Well, yeah, and the protections that are officially in place
to save you and to help you get stuff in
and out of a country through a pouch that nobody
can look at, Like, think about what that means. Back
in the nineteen eighties, US lawmakers wanted to change this
and wanted to review how diplomats move in between countries
(58:51):
with these pouches of anything. Could be arms, could be explosives,
could be dreat drugs. Think about moving explosives quietly, secretly,
without molestation by anybody on let's say an airplane.
Speaker 3 (59:06):
Sure, think think about a shipping container in the right port.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
It's just it is horrifying. In the nineteen eighties, guess
what happened. Guess what happened with the whole diplomatic immunity review. Nothing, what,
no way, absolutely nothing had died trying to get past.
Speaker 3 (59:26):
The thing is a good grift system, and this can
be weaponized as a good grift system. It's like a carousel.
Nobody wants to stop the ride because everybody's got their
favorite horse.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, everybody's using it, man.
Speaker 3 (59:40):
And that's why these conversations keep going in circles. Let's
do our part three on this. We do have a
prediction for you, fellow conspiracy realist. The existing global power
structure is increasingly imperiled. Right. We're in what people call
a fluid situation, especially over the your future. So this
(01:00:02):
means we have a high likelihood have seen more arguments
about diplomatic immunity, more accusations of it being misused. Some
claims of diplomatic immunity are going to be in good faith.
They're meant to protect diplomats from actions and possibly hostile countries.
But others, others may claim this immunity for less noble
(01:00:24):
purposes to commit crime, to exercise espionage or worse. You know,
reminds me of what our Russian friends always used to say.
You'll love this, knull. Nobody makes bulletproof vest for a
third story window.
Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
It's true, it's true.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
They do make those things they like, auto inflate when
you fall over.
Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
Yeah, yeah, bouncy castles, like we talked about. We've got
a new business. We're very excited to share with you folks.
We also, you know, the inflatable slides on planes, but
you just can't put those on every window.
Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Apparently, it's true, we could have, We could have all
officials wear those suits that auto inflate when you fall
then also sound yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
They were also a giant bubble.
Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Immediately they look ridiculous too, but yeah, ridiculously sick.
Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
True, true, Maybe yeah, maybe we should normalize it. But
then what does that lead us to. We'll tell you
what this all inevitably proves. Inarguably, some people have a
different set of rules, and this is the stuff they
don't want you to know. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
We can't wait for you to join us. In some
upcoming episodes, we're going to talk about how you can
(01:01:40):
break physics. We'll have a little bit of a stuff
they don't want you to know book club with our
favorite sabotage manual from evenings of yesteryear. And in the meantime,
give us some suggestions for things we should cover in
episodes on the wave. Find us online, give us a
telephone call, or reach at our good old fashioned email address.
Speaker 4 (01:02:02):
It's right.
Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noble.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. And folks, we are
returning to you after an Easter weekend as we record
(00:48):
on Monday, April twenty first, Happy for twenty to all
who celebrated another correlation of holidays there.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
It was a nice crossover.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Yeah, everyone was super mellow at the Easter egg Hugh
and also our ip the Pope.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Right, Pope Francis has passed away.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
I mean they're gonna have to do the whole thing
right with the white smoke, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
The Conclave, the black smoke if they don't reach a decision,
the white smoke when they find the new head of
the Catholic Church.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Did you all see the movie Conclave that was recently
I quite enjoyed it. I thought it was an interesting
way of really dramatizing that but not being too heavy handed.
If anyone hasn't seen it and want of insight into
the process we're about to go through in the news,
check it out.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Interesting. Yeah, because the Vatican is big with diplomatic immunity
ever since the Vienna Conventions.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Good tie in.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Oh, that's the thing we're talking about, diplomatic immunity now.
In our first chapter on this, we had we had
so much to get to because it's a I don't
know if it's surprising, but it is an ancient concept.
That is where the old trope don't kill the messenger
comes from. You know, imagine what was the example we had.
(02:04):
Let's see Matt and Noel as respective rulers of their lands,
and they had to make sure that the guy they
sent to talk to the other team was able to
send and deliver or was able to go and return safely.
That's what diplomatic immunity is supposed to.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Allow you to do, and at its heart it makes
a lot of sense for you know, perhaps opposing forces
to be able to communicate for the purposes of either
getting ready for a conflict or you know, hopefully maybe
hashing things out. But that kind of dispensation for an
individual carrying important matters of state between these two factions,
(02:50):
it's very important for both parties for that individual to
be considered off limits in terms of you know, immediate retributions,
like y'all will have your time, let's work things out
and figure out some parameters and then we can murder
each other.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, there are a lot of moments to which are
are frankly cinematic, even though this is the real world.
I'm always reminded of the copaganda shows where someone gets
busted for criminal activity and they get into you know,
the the interrogation room and they say, actually, I'm an
undercover cop. Because there have been cases where people claim
(03:30):
diplomatic immunity and appear to be civilians which don't get
that special dispensation or indulgence.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Dare we say that's a good that's a good word
for it, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's an indulgence. You know, Catholics are Catholicism is in
our minds today. It's the idea or there have been
moments where a government will say, okay, we have you
dead to rights, right, you know, where the government of
Pakistan you shot to people walked up to your car,
(04:01):
you shot one of them in the back, and then
they say, actually, I have diplomatic immunity. What, No, you don't.
You're a You're just an it guy.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, yeah, if you're an it guy for the State Department,
then perhaps there is something to discuss there, because there
are many a civilian looking person that worked for the
for any country, state department that end up in situations.
But as we talked about in the first episode, usually
diplomatic immunity is a thing that is stated to some
(04:34):
responding officer, like the initial encounter with some law enforcement
no matter where you are, that's when a card comes
out a card.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Yeah, you talked about the pouch and all of that,
but there are obviously very well established credentials that one
could produce, absolutely encounter.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Absolutely and to be considered a working diplomat. You are
issue credentials for your time in the country that you're
that you're working in, right, and.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
A one time thing like per use kind of it's okay.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
It gets your credentials expire when you move on to
a different country. So in the case of the US
State Department, it's there's a thing where you you serve
essentially a tour for a few years in one country.
Then you move to another country. Your diplomatic credentials follow
(05:29):
with you country per country, So you can't like, you
can't do a number of years in Ghana and then
just on a lark go back to Ghana and say, yeah,
I'm not paying parking tickets.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
You can't just hop around.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
There's no like diplomatic community, tourist package or whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I mean.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
You are typically stationed somewhere for a time and then
are reassigned, you know, and this is all above board,
at least in terms of the issuing government, the issuing country, right, yeah, correct.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It should be noted that it's funny. We talked about
it before, like when you're talking about an embassy and
diplomats and a consulate and consoles. One thing we didn't
bring up last time are honorary consoles.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I love an honorary anything. Well, yes, it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Honorary consoles aka shadow diplomats is something Pro Publica talked
about a few years ago and we mentioned it. We
we talked about like what is that, What the heck
is an honorary console and how does that work? And
what kind of vetting process goes into making someone an
honorary console for a country.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Is it like getting an honorary degree where you're a
luminary in some field and they're just like, this guy
clearly could be a huge boon to us in terms
of diplomacy, right is that?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I like? I like that comparison because it is shadow
diplomacy is a part of diplomacy. It is murky. It's
such a as weird as it sounds in twenty twenty five.
A lot of this stuff goes down to like gentlemen agreements,
you know what I mean. We have a special relationship
(07:08):
with the United Kingdom. We're sorry this kid died, but
we're going to work out some stuff, or in Pakistan
where the US will pay the blood price or called
da under Sharia law. But yeah, there's so much this
and I love that we're pointing out, you know, at
the very beginning, as he said, no, diplomatic immunity is
(07:31):
supposed to be a protective measure to allow diplomats freedom
of movement and activity. The most common example of diplomatic
immunity being abused is parking violations, and it's hilarious and
sometimes not paying taxes. The parking violation thing is hilarious
(07:52):
because at some point, even when an embassy racks up
tens of thousands of dollars of park tickets, at some
point there are very high level conversations between two governments
where they say, Okay, this guy parks like a dick,
but we can't make this world War three.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's true. We talked about last episode, a
guy who had a bunch of these parking violations racked up,
got a dui, and then finally his embassy basically said,
you got to get out of here. Oh and you
got to pay all those back parking.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Tickets, right right, Yeah, indeed, Yeah, immunity in your destination
country is not the same thing. Well, we'll get into
this man. It gets so, it gets so crazy and spoiler,
you know, the problem runs much deeper than parking tickets.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
And maybe this is off base to do here, but
I figured, from my own edification, I get it out
of the way. I think it might be fun to
talk quickly about the difference between a diplomat, an ambassador,
and a dignitary. Right, So it's like, while all ambassadors
are diplomats, not all diplomats are ambassadors. Ambassadors are like
the high mucky muck of diplomats representing a country attending
(09:11):
public kind of facing things right.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Absolutely, like how all mazes or puzzles, right, not all
puzzles or mazes.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
And a dignitary could be an ambassador and may have
diplomatic immunity or be accompanied by diplomats, But a dignitary
is more a foreign visitor to a country who holds
high rank of some kind, whether in.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
The medlary of the government. Yeah, dignitary could just be
someone who, through genetic accident, is a member of an
aristocratic system, right, And that's how it used to go
in earlier evenings. So that's part of why diplomatic immunity exists,
because the first diplomats were like the siblings and the
cousins of the king, you.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Know, yeah, sometimes like proving themselves by being the one
that gets sort of pushed forth to like give the
bad news.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
That is funny.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
Then even in fiction you see that a lot where
like the nephew or the son of the king will
appear in court to the opposition to make known the
intentions or wishes of you know, whom he represents.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
The Habsburg say, we've got to talk to this foreign power.
Which one of us has the least weird chin.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I have to say, guys, while we've been having this conversation,
I've been delighted watching Nole's camera. For everybody listening, Noel
has a new cool camera and.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
It moves, ye moves and zooms, and there's.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
A portrait behind Nole's head kind of to his right,
and it keeps I think it keeps seeing that portrait
as a person standing behind Nol, and it keeps trying
to reframe.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
For it's I could stand up and.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Look literally track me all the way to a standing position.
If anyone wants to nerd out with a sick monitor,
the Apple Studio display is expensive, but it's really really
cool and I'll never need another monitor again.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
They are not paying us to say that fans the monitor.
With this, let's take a quick word from our sponsors,
and let's see just how deeply problematic and conspiratorial diplomatic
immunity can become. Here are the facts. Please, please please,
(11:28):
fellow conspiracy realists, check out our first chapter of this
series before continuing, as we'll call in that exploration, we
talked about the ancient roots of what we call diplomatic
immunity today, and we talk about some crucial misconceptions. We're
gonna recap these briefly just to pop the top tonight,
(11:48):
because look, no judgment, but if you are diplomatic staff
in the audience this evening, I think we can all
agree it's better to know about these things in advance.
And you know, we hope you never find yourself in
a situation where knowing these misconceptions applies. I think the
(12:10):
first one we got a bust, and Matt you alluded
to it a little bit earlier. Not everyone gets this superpower.
Not everyone gets full or even partial immunity. If you just.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Trap are different.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Okay, well, it's like all the conversation and caveated and loophold,
and we'll get to some specific cases, but the main
takeaway is that if you do not have the official cosign,
you cannot one hundred percent assume that your origin country
(12:45):
will support you'll back you up.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But there are instances where some
form of diplomatic community will get you out of like
you said, parking tickets, but like a moving violation if
you're speeding to a certain extent in certain states, even
if you have immunity, you're still going to have to
go to court to face those charges because that is
not a part of your official duties.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Right, That's one of the other that's one of the
other misconceptions. I'm glad we're bringing that up. So look,
if you are not granted this superpower, which most people
don't possess, it doesn't matter what's legal in your origin country.
If you are safe. If you are from a place
(13:28):
where cannabis is decriminalized or even fully legal, and you
travel to a place where it's not legal, you're still
in trouble. You can't be like, I'm sorry, you know
me and mar or whatever. I apologize Singapore, but weed
is fine in Portland.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Well question or just made me example.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
I have a friend who owned that name, but did
get detained in an Asian country in Korea, right was
Korea for having a weed vape. And it was right
when there is a big kerfuffle and the changeover in
the government there, and so this individual.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Was held for a day.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I want to say, but like the moment that that
shuffle happened, they were released. I'm wondering if you know,
even if you're not a diplomat, you are a citizen
of another country, and there are almost always an opportunity
for that to be an act of diplomacy of some kind,
to either mess with or not mess with someone from
(14:28):
another country, depending on the nature of your relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Right, yeah, many factors go into this. People, anyone can
become a pawn right on the board. We've seen a
piece of leverage. We have seen many multiple times. We
also know, to your point earlier that you raised Matt
this this get out of jail free card. This actual immunity,
(14:53):
like the high level immunity, it applies to top notch staff,
the bigger family of dogs and there families UH and ambassadors.
And part of the part of the reasonable see is
that's simply a necessity of state craft. But even if
you have this immunity, even if you are the ambassador
or family member of UH, you know, the ambassador's crew,
(15:16):
a member of the ambassador's family, say, yeah, the protection
only technically applies in the course of your official duties.
So let's say you are the US ambassador to UH.
Let's pick a random country. When we don't talk about Oftenswana.
(15:37):
It's perfect. And also I love Ladies Detective Agency.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
That one was great.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Yes, I forgot all about that with Jill Scott, who
we had a podcast with here on the network for
quite a little while.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
So you're the US ambassador to Botswana. For some reason,
in addition to your duties, you picked up a side
hustle where you're stealing Pokemon cards and bulk. You're just
you're lifting the trucks. You're hoisting them, just like that
meat heist, and they fell off the trucks.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Sure, all right, it sounds like a shadow diplomat, So all.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Right, all right, all right, which which ironically is also
the name of a Pokemon.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
So if you get caught boosting all these Pokemon cars
sweet sweet Poke, Yeah, then yeah, boosting these boosters. Uh,
if you've got mad boosties like Jack and Miles, then
you have to you would have to explain somehow why
boosting truckloads of sweet Pokemon merch is part of your
(16:41):
job as the ambassador. First off, how do you find
the time of the day. But secondly, how would you
explain that? It sounds cut and dry. But then to
that earlier point we made, there's so many other complicated
intervening factors. They're not really asking whether or not you
committed a that's that's fine, that happens, you know what
(17:03):
I mean, that's a conversation somewhere else. But the next
questions in that conversation are going to be, like, do
we have any sensitive deals between the two countries? Does
rocking the boat? Like does does dying on this hill
or fighting for the good grace of Pokemon? Is that
going to mess up our pipeline, our telecom deal?
Speaker 5 (17:24):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And to think about it.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
And it's pretty gross and cliche.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
But an example that always seems to come up and
fictionalized accounts of these type of exchanges are like someone
has killed a sex worker, you know, in a hotel room,
and they know, and we have to either decide is
this person so high level and valuable that we're going
to cover it up for them?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Right?
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Like it's it's it's almost a joke.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Right right, And sometimes sometimes people choose pretty strident solutions
to those conversations. Another thing, is there a quid pro quote?
Is there an opportunity in the chaos, you know, we
could maybe swap some prisoners, or swap some tourists or whatever.
Does if we're one country, do we want something from
(18:12):
the other. Could we leverage this criminal case to help
us in that conversation, like we want a different kind
of trade deal, tariff regimen. So maybe Johnny Blue jeans,
my favorite, doesn't have to get booked for murder. Yeah,
(18:32):
it's it's weird. They all come into play. The third
misconception that we cannot emphasize over emphasize is that your immunity,
even if you have, you know, premium plus America immunity,
it can be revoked no matter who you are. You
push the envelope too far and you can get cut loose.
(18:53):
And this always the way this happens is. Let's say
there's a serious crime, domestic abuse, money laundry via diplomatic pouches,
which we shouted out earlier, and I think we're all
still fascinated with the destination country, the country where that
crime occurred or where that diplomat is supposed to be working.
(19:13):
They can make a phone call, sort of like your
friend's parents at a sleepover can call your parents if
you're misbehaving at the sleepover, and they can say when
the country's called, they say, look, can you guys just
tell us, this person does not have diplomatic immunity, And
sometimes the other country will say, yeah, wait, truckloads of pokemon.
(19:38):
Forget that guy.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
No, no, too much, a bridge too far, bridge too far.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, And we talked about an example of that where
a woman was caught shoplifting and she happened to be
the spouse of a diplomat, so she had diplomatic immunity
through his employment with the state department or some state department,
and she was not arrested, but the state department was notified,
and so basically they then said, actually, you don't have
(20:07):
immunity from this specific thing.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
She did end up getting.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
In quite a bit of trouble for stealing three thousand
dollars worth of stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Which at that let you don't need to why she
wasn't doing it to eat. Yeah, it was shoplifting. It's
such a weird one. That's an excellent example. We also
have to note that countries can be hesitant to waive immunity.
First off, not all spouses and family members get tucked
(20:37):
up into diplomatic immunity. It can vary due to a
number of factors. But if like let's imagine we're the
United States, and tri Force is president, best president in
recent history. Obviously, thank you for your service, Andrew. Your
(20:57):
administration is not going to be super open to waving
immunity in general, because it can set a precedent. You
want the people who work for you to know that
they do have some degree of protection. Otherwise it feels
like you're throwing people to the wolves.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
So even the term immunity also of course makes one
think of immunity in testifying, like in court cases. Right,
it's just sort of like that usually almost always is
a quid pro quo situation, right where they're like, you
do something for us, and we're going to make sure
that you're not in trouble or that you're get a
lesser sentence or whatever. But even immunity is more than that, Like,
(21:39):
it's more than just getting a lesser sentence. Usually it
involves testifying against somebody so that the things that you
do are not going to prevent you from doing that,
and that you are able to have a clean slate
even though you are known.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
To have perhaps colluded with said individual or charges.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, that's true, lesser charges. Yeah, So it be immunity
from something like in a case, community from maybe the
death penalty or we're not going to get you on
this level of racketeering.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Full immunity, however, would probably be rare, and maybe more
of the stuff of you know, TV procedurals.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
It can happen. You know, it's happened. Shout out paper clip,
a couple of things, a couple of other related things
from World War Two. But yeah, you're absolutely on the
money there, man, because if you grant full immunity, it
is almost always a kind of payment for services rendered.
Help us get the bigger fish, quid pro quo. Look,
(22:35):
if the home country does not waive immunity, which they
often will not, then the destination country still has a
couple of other rabbits in the top hat. The most prominent,
of course, is declaring an individual persona non grata, which
is the fancy Latin way of saying you're not welcome here,
(22:56):
go away. It could happen to civilians as well, but
when it happens to diplomats it usually also bundles in
things like revoking their diplomatic credentials and expelling them from
the country. Also, if you're declared persona and on grata
in a country, you can't stay there. You know what
I mean. You don't have to go home, but you
(23:18):
can't stay in Nepal or whatever.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
You know, was that semisonic supersonic semisonic?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I mean, oh, closing time, hmm.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
Stay here.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah. This idea of expulsion or persona no grata important
to note that is entirely the destination country's decision. They
can make it at any time. They don't need approval
from the home country of a diplomat. When we saw,
you know, the outbreak of the newest iteration of Russia's
(23:55):
war against Ukraine and their invasion thereof there was internet
furor and a lot of Russian diplomats were just expelled.
Nobody was asking the home country of Russia to really
wave immunity. They just kick the people out and it's
their decision. So immunity is not as sacro sanct as
(24:20):
we might think it is. And the last, maybe the
most important point is if you successfully claim diplomatic immunity
in one country, that does not mean that you're free
from all consequences. You might get away with some very
unclean evil stuff in say like the Japanese diplomat in
(24:43):
Canada that we mentioned earlier, right, domestic violence case. But
then you get kicked out, you get the boot, you
get shipped back home, and you have consequences in your
home country. In this guy's case in Japan, you get demoted,
you might face criminal charges in your country of origin.
(25:03):
All they did was move you to a different justice system,
a system to which you are not, in this case immune.
There you go. And so again, despite all these loopholes,
these caveats, these asterisks, there's no escaping. A diplomatic community
is powerful, it's necessary. I also think it purposely bakes
(25:26):
in a window of time, right, everybody saying, don't act
too rashly, give us some time to go through this.
You know, if there wasn't immunity on some level, there
wouldn't be anything stopping a hostile country from just rounding
up foreign ministry or embassy staff whenever they please and
(25:49):
then making charges to support their agenda. That's true, that's true.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Well, yeah, because we talked about in the past, in
the way way past, especially before those conventions, you could
just you could round up everybody and accuse them of
being spies, right, And that still occurs these days where
diplomats are kicked out unceremoniously from countries when their country
(26:15):
of origin is in some way embroiled in a conflict,
whether cold, hot or you know what, lukewarm, I guess,
uh yeah, countries will just say, hey, you have to
get out now. That happened with the United States and
Cuba not that long ago. That's the last one I
can remember. But I know that there's other stuff happening
(26:36):
even right now, where because of all of the trade
war that's happening, some diplomatic relationships are being highly strained
and potentially moving.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
That reminds me, when are we going to Hong Kong?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You were going to Hong Kong whenever you please?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Or but this, Yeah, and that's a great example. We
also see that again with European governments and Russian diplomats
right often related to windows stumbles or polonium underwear, but
more so related recently to the invasion of Ukraine. In
(27:16):
this power that is diplomatic community, it's a superpower, we
also see opportunity for crime, corruption, and conspiracy. So tonight,
what happens when this gets misused? What happens when things
go wrong We're going to pause for a word from
our sponsors, who are hopefully the State Department, and we'll
(27:36):
be back. Here's where it gets crazy. We previously talked
about we sort of categorized it into different types of corruption.
The first one is that people might not follow the rules.
(27:57):
The second one is that members of diplomatic state can
knowingly use their position to aid and a bet or
originate criminal acts. One thing we didn't talk about earlier
in chapter one is the nebulous gray area. So we
mentioned that people will do People will only get diplomatic
(28:19):
immunity technically if it's in the course of their official employment.
So riddle me this, guys. Does diplomatic immunity apply to
acts of trade craft of espionage?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So well, I guess it depends on what they're caught for.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Right and who you're asking. Right. On the one hand, right,
if you're the origin country, you could say internally, this
does qualify as an act carried out in the course
of an employment period. This is a job, right. But
on the other hand, if you are the destination country
where these shenanigans occur and you catch a foreign spine,
(29:02):
that's probably a crime.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, Well, wherever it's occurring for sure. Well, it's one
of those things. Are you Are you working for the
state Department for some private industry from for some private company,
and are you.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Our contractor how does that work?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, yeah, but you're let's say you're copying files and
putting them onto a drive of some sort to transfer somewhere.
But as a part of your official job for that
private company, you're just doing your job. You're also just
doing your job as your employment for the State Department?
Is what part of that could be argued as like
(29:39):
not being part of your official duties? You know, like
and is that just the espionage?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
But that's the word too official, is it not? You
know what I mean? The US Administration comes back and says,
holy smokes, we're just as surprised as you. This was
Ori T guy. He's there to like turn on on
the server.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah, I know, you're you're absolutely right. But what
if you are just driving to a destination, right? Is
that a part of your official duties, driving to where
you're supposed to function and.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
You just happen to have a telescope, some scissors, a
couple pieces of cloth, GPS system, that's all off the books.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, but they can't search your car because you've got immunity.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Right, that's why you throw it out while you're driving away.
This is we're alluding to a specific case. But yeah,
you're absolutely right, Matt. As ever, you know, in these situations,
countries will often come together, right, work out a deal,
grab some coffee in Vienna, what the hell have you?
(30:44):
And the way this gets us to something we talked
about so often in the past and remains true regardless
of where you live. You as a member of the public,
as a domestic populace, your government speaks very differently to
you than your government speaks to other governments behind closed doors.
(31:06):
In general, people don't want to rock the boat. They're
very smart at this level. They have dozens hundreds of
other factors to consider, and that's why you know you'll
see people do crimes and the worst thing that happens
is they get expelled. The countries that expel diplomats are
(31:26):
genuinely concerned that if they crack down too hard, they
are going to be economic consequences. Other countries are going
to say, we're not sending our people here, and then
that spells disaster for goodwill. Perhaps more immediately it spells
disaster for trade agreements. So that's really what goes on
(31:47):
trial or in consideration.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, and that's when the tariffs begin.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's so weird, man, Like, it's surreal, it's infuriating, and
it bothers me. Like, let's say you are running a country.
Your law enforcement has someone dead to rights, like they
know they were digging dirt. This insert embassy employee here
is not what they seem right, and they're breaking the
(32:14):
laws of our country. But we can't do anything because
we need this telecom deal, right, we need this pipeline.
We've got so many you know, pistachios to ship abroad
or whatever it may be. That's the trickiest part. People
can get away with crimes, and even when they are punished,
the consequences they encounter can be extremely different from those
(32:38):
of the average civilian criminal. So maybe we talk about
some specific examples, you know, getting away with murder. People
do get away with a lot way pass, parking tickets,
cases of child abuse, domestic violence, manslaughter. We're naming specific
we're referencing specific cases. And in each of those specific
(33:02):
genres of case we're referencing, there's more than one example.
So with these considerations, yes, in theory, a diplomat of
a certain level could murder someone purposely or through negligence.
They could refuse to be arrested, they could skip down.
In practice, that doesn't prevent them from being judged sometimes
(33:24):
in absentia, sometimes as we'll see remotely, like imagine appearing
to court via video. And at this point we see
all those soft factors we mentioned previously. We also see
the idea, as cold as it sounds, of taking a
tragedy and engineering from that tragedy and opportunity. Could we
(33:46):
have some sort of prisoner trade, a mutual extradition agreement.
This brings us to the case of Harry Dunn from
August twenty seven, twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, Harry Dunn is on a motorcycle and he is
traveling down the road. He is in the United Kingdom,
so he is traveling on the left side of the
road as Yeah, as he's making his way. It's a kid.
It's already a dangerous situation being on a motorcycle right well,
as he's traveling down the road as he should be,
(34:19):
someone is traveling towards him on his side of the road,
so they are traveling on the right side of the road,
which is wrong way traffic in the UK, and this
person strikes him with their vehicle and he is ultimately
killed because of the accident, I guess the collision as
(34:41):
you would call that. And then after the driver of
the vehicle flags down some others is attempting to get help.
Then it has found out that this forty five year
old woman, and Seculas has this thing called diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
The US argues that she has this thing called diplomatic immunity.
The United Kingdom disagrees. Harry Dunn is not doing bad stuff.
He's driving on the right side of the road. He's
a kid who likes his motorcycle. Seculis is married to
a CIA employee who at the time is stationed as
(35:30):
at a listening station raf Crowton, and Seculis claim does
cooperate with police, right does try to help this help
make things not a fatality. But young Harry Dunn does
expire at the major trauma center in Oxford, the John
(35:51):
Radcliffe Hospital, And when Seculis is speaking with police, we
know that we know that things were a little murky
at the beginning. There were a lot of conversations, because again,
the idea of being the spouse of a diplomat hinges
(36:14):
onto negotiable variables. Right, First, is the diplomat high level
enough to get that kind of family protection? Second, do
both countries agree that person counts as a diplomat.
Speaker 5 (36:29):
And are the privileges exactly the same every time? Or
is there no?
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Kay, I didn't think so.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
I mean for the spouse, like, they don't automatically get
all of the same protections as the actual facts diplomat.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
It depends on the level, you know, like if you're
the ambassador level, then there will be more privileges afforded,
and it really is a privilege. So this is the thing.
Secoolest admits that she's driving on the wrong side of
the road. This is further confirmed by CCTV footage. No
(37:05):
one is arguing that she did not do this, that
she was not responsible for this fatal collision. Instead, everyone
is frantically trying to figure out what happens next. So
Coolest doesn't really wait, I mean, she talks with police,
she cooperates, right, but then she claims diplomatic immunity. She
skips town and before this makes her sound like an
(37:27):
utter villain, because I'm sure many of us have never
heard the name before. She likely took these actions on
the explicit orders of the US government. They told her
what to do, she did what they said. She wasn't
becoming some kind of international ghost.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
No, but it certainly didn't look great at the time,
because it is essentially somebody leaving the scene of you know,
a homicide.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Or well not just the scene in the country.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, but it's just somebody who got
out got out right when when trouble arose and she
did something really really wrong. It's my understanding though, that
then the United States and the United Kingdom we're working
together to say, hey, what can we do here? Like
this seems weird? Like what is this loophole being a
(38:18):
she's an analyst, but she's a spouse of this diplomat,
So why she has community? What do we do?
Speaker 3 (38:23):
She's the spouse of a guy we the US consider
a diplomat for these purposes.
Speaker 5 (38:28):
Yes, actually, probably was she just confused about what country
she is?
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Then wow, wow, she left intoxicated.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Well I don't understand. No, no, it doesn't seem to
be intoxication. There was a breathalyzer deployed on the scene.
Looks more like she was leaving the base and perhaps
doing distracted driving. There was actually a prior issue with
distracted driving here in the US a few years prior,
I see, and they'd only been in only been in
the UK about three weeks.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
This is a quote from her. As I turned out
of the exit from the Air Force base, taking a
left turn, I instinctively moved to the right side of
the road.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
She was confused about what country she was in.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Well, well, she said, I knew that the proper side
of the road to drive was the left side, not
the right side, as I was accustomed to driving in
the US. My action was based on instinct and not
recalling in the moment that I should should have been
driving on the other.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Side and maybe be on your phone, maybe maybe be
that's if you look at the case, that's what they're arguing.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
I've never had to drive in the UK, but I
do every time I see it in a film or
a TV show.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
Whatever I do, my mind does like recoils a little bit.
Like I do.
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Think there would be situations where it would be easy
to follow that muscle memory and just kind of screw up.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Of course, yeah, especially if you are you know, you're
newly minted in this place with a different set of
literal rules of the road. The important thing is the
government of the Unining Kingdom was in continual contact with
the government of the United States after this collision occurred.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
And did we say she went to the US.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yes, she's skipped out, but to the US.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Yeah, so she not is some malicious kind of fleeing
the scene kind of why.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
No, No, the US government told her to do that
and she followed those instructions, the US and the British government. Also,
this is a thing that didn't get reported immediately. The
British government was aware of this and they were like,
you can see text messages whether we're speaking with each other,
and the Foreign Minister was saying, look, we don't We
(40:37):
asked you guys to wave immunity and you said no,
we don't approve of this individual leaving the country. We
have strong reservations. But since you refused to waive immunity
and she claimed diplomatic immunity, we are not going to
prevent her from boarding the next flight home. And that's
exactly what happened. And as the case winds on, there's
(41:02):
a lot of tension between the UK and the US.
The British public is asking more and more questions. Journalists
over in the UK, who are pretty great at their jobs,
they verify that Seculas is how did they they had
to be so careful at first? Because they're reporting laws?
(41:23):
She was quote previously involved with the CIA somehow associated.
Like we're not saying you're in Wu Tang, but you
hang out with Riza a.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Lot, are you? You are kind of in it for
a little while.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
We're to say, you know, previously associated. It's it's terrible
because imagine you know, the family of this poor, unfortunate kid,
Harry Dunn.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
They're really pushing and they're asking really valley questions like
why do the laws seem to be different for this person?
In particular? Is the government of the United Kingdom giving
this person special protection? And why won't they tell us
exactly what's happening there in the UK right? Why can't
(42:20):
we get the full disclosure? These are questions that just
make the case look worse and worse.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Well, yeah, and so she ends up appearing via video
at the inquest what is known as there and she
talks about all of this stuff. She's still in the
United States. The United States refuses to extradite her to
the UK to actually stand physical trial, to be there,
as they call live give live evidence there, and she
(42:50):
ends up pleading guilty right in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, in October of twenty twenty two, via a remote
video appearance in the UK court, she pleads guilty and
she is sentenced to eight months in jail, suspended for
twelve months. She's beenned from driving for twelve months. The
entire time. The dun family is not happy with this,
and I love that you're mentioning that pre existing UK
(43:15):
US extradition treaty, which is a real thing. We have
to remember the context in which this occurs. At this time,
the UK is still refusing to extradite Wicked Leak's founder,
Julian Assange. So the dun family, or i should say
their legal team went to the UK government and said, well,
(43:37):
what about this, Why don't you say give us skulas
and you can have Assange, at which point the UK
government apparently went oh pishposh.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, well yeah, but yes, imagine that somebody kills your
child and you go through all of that for years.
It's been three almost four years. Yeah, you're going through
all of this legal stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Massive protest by the way.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah yeah. But then finally there is a there is
a legal plea of guilty from the person that killed
your son, but they're still in a different country and
the judge cannot enforce any sentence on the person that
killed your son because they're in a different country.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, they have no jurisdiction and that's issue, and that's it. Yeah,
reminds us of our earlier episode on Saudi fugitives in
the United States. You can see all sorts of Shenanig
and ree Shanan. And if you allow people to uh
(44:45):
Shanan once.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
What happens Shenani once again?
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Once again? For an even murcurer case. We could check out,
well just for time. I don't know how far we're
going to get into it, but do you check out
what is called the Raymond Alan Davis incident with a
guy in Pakistan, US national later revealed to be a
CIA contractor, and it gets super dirty, super quick. Oh yeah,
(45:14):
it's an episode all its own out, but argume it.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
You can go back and listen to our episode. Oh
I don't know if it was on the Saudi Arabian
thing we talked about. I think the dude was from Qatar,
sa Muhammad Almani. It was a yeah, Katari diplomat in
the US. There was a lawsuit of some sort filed
by people who said they were being kept at his
(45:40):
palatial mansion.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Over in Beverly Hills or something.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yeah, to work basically as indentured servants there.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
And it was the one lady who managed to scale
the wall.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, exactly, because there were allegations of sexual assault and
all kinds of other stuff happening along with the you know,
the terrible human trafficking stuff. So it's just there's all
kinds of examples like this where a human being is covered,
usually by a country.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Yeah, and how about this, let's take a let's take
a break for a word from our sponsors, and then
let's let's explore some of those KSA Kingdom of Saudi
Arabia cases in specific other types of immunity in shenanigans.
Speaker 4 (46:33):
And we've returned.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
So we're not saying that every single high level diplomat
is out to do crimes. This is this is absolutely
not the case. But it is important to remember and
inarguably true that they do have a higher chance of
getting away with some type of crime than your average
(46:54):
person or tourists in another country. A diplomat is essentially
a an officer of another country who is in a
different country under the protection of their home country, with
an agreement, you know, between that country and the country
they're in. So they are more than an individual. They
are afforded more rights and privileges.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
I don't just you know, I'm not here just as
Ben Winter. I am here as a representative of the
crowd for our conversations. Right now, I am the crown,
right There's an autonomy to this, especially.
Speaker 5 (47:32):
An ambassador or some sort of you know, high level dignitary.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
So that means, yeah, just like you're saying Noel, that
means any conflict or issue with that individual immediately becomes
a state level problem, you know what I mean. Now,
we're not just locking up some joker for loose Pokemon cards.
Now we're locking up in a way the United States government.
(48:00):
So we got to figure this out.
Speaker 5 (48:01):
Do you guys think in the way that we always
joke about loose diamonds and go bags for folks that
are about to go on the run. Do you think
there's anyone that just has really really valuable Pokemon cards
in there? Hell yeah, I think there must be. There
have to made matter cards whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah, full mock sets. I love that you dropped Ben Winter.
M hm. That makes me very happy.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
So we have we have other cases of immunity that
we I think we want to get to. Matt, you
you mentioned an episode that I think really really stuck
with all three of us. Back in twenty twenty, we
asked why does the US have such a terrible track
record letting Saudi fugitives flee the country even if they
(48:47):
are so not convicted of crimes, but accused of crimes, right,
maybe made a court appearance and then made bail because
they're not hurting for money. Right. In this investigation, we
discovered undeniable proof that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has,
on multiple occasions in the US and in other countries,
(49:07):
exercised state level power to extradite, to rescue Saudi nationals
who are not diplomats, who are in some case just
like might be college students a little after college. Right,
they're not high level ambassadors. We're not talking about this.
We're talking about people accused of human trafficking, sexual abuse,
(49:30):
up to and including murder, and in each of these
cases from that episode, we found that the KSA has
loosely put a different interpretation of diplomatic immunity. They used
proxy funding, straight up state funding to do stuff like
provide clean passports, sometimes under different identities, which is a
(49:53):
real supermove, to provide funding to secure bail if there
was a court a period, and as soon as bail
was made, KSA immediately transported these folks outside of that
destination or host country, like private plane, you know what
I mean, off to the races. These folks don't wait
(50:15):
in line at the security checkpoint. It also did not
nine to eleven whatever, keep it.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
Oh that's right, No, I remember that there being some
hay made about that. Yeah, about like certain diplomats receiving
much more preferential treatments, you know, in a situation that
was absolute pandemonium.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Specifically from saudio behavior. You even some family members of
the guard that they said masterminded the whole thing. It's cool,
it's fine, everything's fine.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Let's see a little podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Hey, black bagged shadow diplomats, guys, this is really fun
honorary consoles. Well, please everyone, if you have time, please please,
please please please head over to pro Publica and read
a December twenty second, twenty twenty two article titled shadow
diplomats have posed a threat For decades, the world's governments
(51:11):
looked the other way. This is a fantastic article written
by Debbie sen Zipper and several others from various reporting outlets,
and this thing goes deep into people, including a shadow
diplomat slash honorary console to the United States from guess where,
(51:33):
guess where? Name of country?
Speaker 4 (51:35):
What did we say earlier?
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Botswana? Yes, just this is the guy working in the
United States on the behalf of Botswana. And it, like
the top of the article details how this guy was
doing some weird stuff, paying off officials to basically as
a bribe essentially that then would change where some pension
funds went. And then he made like one point two
(51:58):
to one point three million dollars off the top of
the deal. And nobody officially vetted this guy, at.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Least I I had to step out for a second.
This is our honorary console.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yep, yeah, mister Robert Shoemake, Yeah, yeah, A very very
interesting person and with Bob. Yeah, I don't know how
he's doing right now. He could not be reached for
comment back in December twenty twenty two. But I do
know just in this article, it discusses how there are
an estimated one one hundred honorary consoles from different countries
(52:33):
in the United States operating within the US right now,
or at least at that time. There's more or less
who knows at this very moment in twenty twenty five.
But this title operates much in the same way that
all the other ones do. Where you've got a diplomatic
pouch that can't be searched, you can't go to their
office and search it the way you would some other place.
(52:55):
If it is officially, you know, labeled as such and
with the correct stuff, you officially can't wire tap them.
Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it's international law to protect
these folks. But the biggest question that's put forth in
this article shadow Diplomat's opposed a threat for decades is
(53:17):
how are these individuals vetted? And then how is the
State Department of the United States specifically aware of these
honorary consoles in operation? And they found that it wasn't
it I think it was twenty seventeen was the last
time they had even checked on official records of who
(53:38):
is operating in the US as honorary consoles from other countries,
Like they took a five year span in between just
checking to see who's operating.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
And it's the DOS response to this, if I recall,
because I remember this being a huge hullabloo, thank you
for your service pro publica. I remember the state departments
idea or their argument in defense of this was to say, hey,
this is a very large, complicated situation or miliu, and
(54:13):
they essentially said they don't They implied they don't have
the funding to do a detailed review of everybody. So
they're saying, despite the fact that this is a very
powerful position background checks. I don't know, man, just tell
us if the ViBe's good.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Well yeah, well, mister Shoemate, the guy that we just
talked about had been in big trouble in two thousand
and two. He lost his real estate license for all
kinds of under the table junk he was doing. He
got in big, big trouble a couple years after that,
and then he just happens to be operating in the
US it's this honorary diplomat.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
We love tourism.
Speaker 4 (54:50):
Man.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Oh, there's a thing called the Office of Foreign Missions,
which is something I didn't know about. They put out
statements at the time of this investigation they're talking about.
This is what they say. The Department has zero tolerance
for evidence of inappropriate activity by any member of a
foreign mission, including honorary consoles.
Speaker 3 (55:12):
I love that very pursuit of happiness. I remember reading that.
So the office has zero tolerance not for criminal acts,
but for evidence of cridminal acts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
remember that meeting. Yeah, man, this is this is crazy.
I think maybe we do a third episode in this
series just on shadow diplomacy. What say you?
Speaker 4 (55:33):
Oh yeah, absolutely, this.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
Stuff is nuts and there's so many examples they give.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
In guys, and they're from the past. So maybe in
our in our in our mission, on our continuing on
our continuing knowledge, heist, maybe our mission is to find
active shadow diplomats, which is legal to do. It's legal
to ask that.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
There's a dude for from the Czech Republic who was
an honorary console in two thousand and five, he tried
to avoid paying taxes in Michigan, and Ohio on a
sixteen thousand square foot home near Detroit.
Speaker 3 (56:13):
Yeah, and it's like the de thousand at that point
just started church man, you know the game. We will
make it so easy in this country.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Well, he said the property was owned by the Czech government.
It was transferred to the Czech government for the United
States government cannot enforce any taxes high right.
Speaker 3 (56:32):
I think we've all been in that situation. You tried
to do a couple moves as April approaches, Which government did?
Which government? Did you seed your house? Do you met?
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Oh Botswana?
Speaker 3 (56:44):
Of course, of course, yes. This episode is brought to
you by Botswada. Don't have the time to get into
some other cases of things like diplomatic immunity, particularly a
case that is always he's really haunted us, which we
talked about briefly in our Uncaught serial Killers episode is
(57:06):
Essay Sagawa. This guy is a the Quick Skinny. This
is not appropriate for all audience members. The Quick Skinny
is in nineteen eighty one in Paris, France. This guy,
who is not a diplomat but the son of a
very powerful industrial family in Japan. He murders a classmate
(57:26):
and he proceeds to mutilate and defile the cadaver, and
he consumes pieces of the corpse, consumes pieces of the flesh.
He is dead to rights. He definitely did it, but
his wealthy family pushes the needle, so instead of going
to French prison, he goes to a psychiatric institution. A
(57:46):
few years later, the family in Japan push again. He
has deported back to Japan. He's declared saying all the
paperwork regarding his case is lost, and he lives the
rest of his life is a minor celebt, completely free.
He didn't pass away until twenty twenty two, so he
was alive while we were making this show. And he's
(58:07):
a very evil person who got something like immunity. Because
I feel like what this teaches us the most troubling
thing is in the world of international intrigue, we are
again and again like the lesson is hammered home. The
crime itself is not as important as who you are
(58:27):
when that crime is committed.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
Well, yeah, and the protections that are officially in place
to save you and to help you get stuff in
and out of a country through a pouch that nobody
can look at, Like, think about what that means. Back
in the nineteen eighties, US lawmakers wanted to change this
and wanted to review how diplomats move in between countries
(58:51):
with these pouches of anything. Could be arms, could be explosives,
could be dreat drugs. Think about moving explosives quietly, secretly,
without molestation by anybody on let's say an airplane.
Speaker 3 (59:06):
Sure, think think about a shipping container in the right port.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
It's just it is horrifying. In the nineteen eighties, guess
what happened. Guess what happened with the whole diplomatic immunity review. Nothing, what,
no way, absolutely nothing had died trying to get past.
Speaker 3 (59:26):
The thing is a good grift system, and this can
be weaponized as a good grift system. It's like a carousel.
Nobody wants to stop the ride because everybody's got their
favorite horse.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, everybody's using it, man.
Speaker 3 (59:40):
And that's why these conversations keep going in circles. Let's
do our part three on this. We do have a
prediction for you, fellow conspiracy realist. The existing global power
structure is increasingly imperiled. Right. We're in what people call
a fluid situation, especially over the your future. So this
(01:00:02):
means we have a high likelihood have seen more arguments
about diplomatic immunity, more accusations of it being misused. Some
claims of diplomatic immunity are going to be in good faith.
They're meant to protect diplomats from actions and possibly hostile countries.
But others, others may claim this immunity for less noble
(01:00:24):
purposes to commit crime, to exercise espionage or worse. You know,
reminds me of what our Russian friends always used to say.
You'll love this, knull. Nobody makes bulletproof vest for a
third story window.
Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
It's true, it's true.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
They do make those things they like, auto inflate when
you fall over.
Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
Yeah, yeah, bouncy castles, like we talked about. We've got
a new business. We're very excited to share with you folks.
We also, you know, the inflatable slides on planes, but
you just can't put those on every window.
Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Apparently, it's true, we could have, We could have all
officials wear those suits that auto inflate when you fall
then also sound yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
They were also a giant bubble.
Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Immediately they look ridiculous too, but yeah, ridiculously sick.
Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
True, true, Maybe yeah, maybe we should normalize it. But
then what does that lead us to. We'll tell you
what this all inevitably proves. Inarguably, some people have a
different set of rules, and this is the stuff they
don't want you to know. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
We can't wait for you to join us. In some
upcoming episodes, we're going to talk about how you can
(01:01:40):
break physics. We'll have a little bit of a stuff
they don't want you to know book club with our
favorite sabotage manual from evenings of yesteryear. And in the meantime,
give us some suggestions for things we should cover in
episodes on the wave. Find us online, give us a
telephone call, or reach at our good old fashioned email address.
Speaker 4 (01:02:02):
It's right.
Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where
it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube
with video content color for your perusing enjoyment. On Instagram
and TikTok, we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself a
cool nickname and within the message, let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air
and then tell us what you think was that the
last pope is the next one the last pope? Does
the pope matter? What about diplomatic community and all the
(01:02:42):
stuff we talked about today. Just call us and say
anything you want to in three minutes. If you've got
a ton to save, you got links, if you've got
stuff to attach one instead, send us a good old
fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the voice
rights back. Want to give a special shout out to
a couple of listeners here, Skeptical dark Horse hit us
with the best pun for the upcoming Boeing F forty seven,
the F bomb federal bombastic overlord, maneuverable blunderber ten ten
(01:03:17):
Skeptical dark Horse no notes, but we'd love to get
some notes from you. We'd love to share them with you.
We're an ongoing discourse with many of our friends neighbors
all the world round. Who would you like to be
a shadow diplomat for? Buy not us conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart rate, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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