October 13, 2017 • 53 mins
You've probably heard of the infamous (and controversial) Bermuda Triangle, that alleged site of numerous disappearing aircraft and oceangoing vessels... but have you heard of the Dragon's Triangle, its counterpart in the Pacific Ocean? Join the guys as they dive headfirst into the conspiratorial lore surrounding vile vortices, as well as the fact -- and fiction -- surrounding the so-called Devil's Sea.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,
(00:24):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is Noman. They call me Ben. You are you?
And that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
We are joined by our super producer Alex Williams in
the on the ones and twos today in the booth.
Are there more than one? Now? Yeah, we have a
we have we've expanded in twos and threes by my account.
That's fair. Oh you meant more than one? Whatever stereo channels,
(00:49):
it's true. There you go. That's the ones in the
twos except our m P three's are monos, so we're
working on changing them. Yeah, we're working on all sorts
of things today. And if we don't take a if
we don't take an ill fated trip, all of those
things would come true. Just a bit of a bureaucratic
notation here. Before we begin today's episode, you're going to
(01:11):
see some uh, some big changes coming up with the
stuff they'll want you to know. Should we give him
the full scoop? I don't know, I don't know to
inside Baseball or should we do like a dipp and
dot kind of thing. We could just say we've been
hashtag blessed with funding from on High, which could mean
(01:32):
more and more shows, expansions. And there's a technature. Yeah,
there's a tech Crunch article you can find if you
wish to learn all about it. M M. Yeah. And
we are you know, we have our parent company How
Stuff Works. We are now officially our own thing with
how Stuff Works. So now if now, if Matt Nolan,
(01:56):
I say, uh, this goes all the way to the top,
we're talking about the guy who works next next to us. Okay.
In our previous episode, well the episode we previously recorded,
we mentioned some maritime adventures, right, Noel, you and I
have not been on cruises, however our compatriot has. Yes,
(02:21):
do we want to rehash the cruises again? Boys? You
were you weren't? You didn't hate it? I didn't hate it,
And uh, it was a thing. It was a thing
that happened, Yes, and it was a creepy and cruise right,
which brought us to brought you perhaps to something that
many people have heard of, the Bermuda Triangle. Yes, I
(02:46):
was near it, but not in it. And yet here
you sit right, I made it through, you guys reporting back.
It was it was a little weird, but it was cool.
And that is the as you know that as the
alleged side of numerous plane crashes, boat sinkings, and disappearances. Yeah,
(03:08):
but today we're going to examine the alleged Eastern version
of this, the so called Devil's Triangle. According to legends,
there have been tens of thousands of people who have
tried to cross this stretch of ocean, only to perish
or disappear in the attempt. In the modern era, so
(03:29):
it goes to the story, several Japanese research and military
vessels have also gone missing in this triangle, leading to
a number of dead and disappeared estimated to be over
seven people. Pretty pretty hefty stuff. Uh well, we'll get
those claims in a bit. First, let's let's look at
the facts. What are we talking about when we say
(03:51):
Devil's Triangle. Well, it's not only known at the Devil's Triangle.
It's also called the Devil's see the Dragon's Triangle and
the Taiwan Triangle. And just as with the Bermuda triangle.
It's even sometimes called the Devil's triangle. Dont donte dom Yeah,
so it gets weird when we ask each other, you know, well,
(04:13):
where is this? What was devil c Dragons triangle, Taiwan triangle? Ah,
because there's no official world map that plots this. Yeah,
it's written all over the place online where it's supposed
to run from. You know, it's a triangle. So in
theory it should have some pretty defined areas in which it,
(04:36):
you know, is affecting the world around it. Usually it's
said to run from Taiwan up to the volcanic island
of Miyake Jima that's just south of Tokyo, and then
to about Iwa Jima or somewhere in that vicinity pretty close.
Both of those locations are along something called the Ezo
moaning volcanic arc that's a laye of underwater volcano. It
(05:00):
was an islands that stretch well, they're part of a
larger system that stretches kilometers all the way from Japan
to Guam. And some people like the author Charles Burletts,
say that the Devil's see, which I think is my
favorite name so far. What do you think I think
Devil's see is quite I like ascribing a shape to it,
(05:21):
implying that it's sort of a zone. See, it's pretty
like the whole sea. Yeah, it's a scene that exists
in itself. That's a good point. We didn't need to
have parameters. Well, according to this author, Charles Burlets, the
Devil's Triangle is every bit as dangerous and mysterious as
(05:42):
the Bermuda Triangle. And we can imagine right now, how uh,
the people who are very dismissive of the Bermuda Triangle
might find this hilarious. Somebody is actually in their car
right now going that is true. Oh me, oh my,
(06:02):
for sure. But then there are other people in the
audiences who, as soon as they hear Devil's Triangle, they
think of the vile vortices, which is something that has
been traded around amongst the mysteriously minded for quite a while.
Vile vortices. Okay, what what's a vile vortes? Oh wait,
(06:23):
that's the plural. What are vile vortices? Man? Well, a
vile vortex is a concept. Really, it's the idea that
there's perhaps something strange going on with either the Earth's
electromagnetic system it's the way it functions. Maybe it's a
little stronger in this place than anywhere else. And odd
(06:46):
things tend to happen with metal objects and living beings. Okay,
all right, So the idea then is that these are
distributed across the planet. Yes, precisely, there are. There is
a map of sorts that you can find, and it
(07:06):
shows you where there's one at the North pole, and
there's one of the South pole, and then the rest
of them are kind of polka dotted in a pattern,
albeit across the Earth. And we can trace this idea
specifically to the author Ivan T. Sanderson, and he is
at the source of a lot of these claims. When
he first proposed this concept, other authors took it up
(07:30):
and they attributed different causes as the source of the
alleged disruption. Right. So, like you said, Matt, electromagnetic stuff
gateway to hell um, paranormal things port to another dimension
maybe extra dimensional, yeah, extra dimensional portals. And we have
a rundown of the of the vortices that that you mentioned, Matt,
(07:55):
that are distributed across the planet. Ladies and gentlemen, would
you like to know where they are? Okay, let's start
at the North and South Pole. If that's okay, just
because that's kind of obvious. If you're talking about electromagnetic strangeness,
you're gonna have perhaps some things going on at the
North and South Pole. Then you move on to the
Bermuda Triangle. That's the you know, the granddaddy of these vortices. Uh.
(08:20):
Then you got the Algerian Megaaliths. This is just south
of Timbuck two uh. And there you can find this
stuff online if you want to learn more about these
other specific vortices, and perhaps you know, we can pick
some of these up later. The Intes Valley over in Pakistan,
there's oh, there's a volcano just east of Hawaii. That's
(08:43):
a pretty interesting place. We got the Devil c the
one we're talking about today, the Triangle, whatever you wanna
call it. There's a oh, well, I'm gonna save this
one for last, the Wharton Basin, and you can you
can find a link to that on Kipedian. Check that out.
The Easter Island. Make a list of the statues the
(09:04):
just east of Rio de Janeiro. There's a section an
area over there that's said to be part of this
The Loyalty Islands, which are I believe between just north
of the intersection, or I guess the area between New
Zealand and Australia. Then my favorite one by far the
South Atlantic anomaly, which perhaps is this whole separate episode
(09:28):
on its own. It's this place where the Van Allen
Belts dip a little bit closer to Earth than the
rest of the belts. So you have this radiation at
x miles above the Earth that's much higher than it
should be and is in any other part of the
Earth and can interfere with high altitude orbital craft as
(09:49):
well as spacecraft. Right. Yeah, Even astronauts have reported, specifically
those above on the Space Shuttle when we would orbit,
that they would get the the shooting stars in their
eyes when they would go near that area. So then
later on down the road they had to improve the
radiation shielding for any other vessels, specifically the International Space Station. Folks,
(10:11):
they don't know the vent Alan Belts are like, it's
like a charged area in the atmosphere. Yeah, it's uh,
it's the things. These are the major reason that people
one of the major reasons that people believe we never
went to the Moon because you couldn't get through that
in theory, right right, yeah, and these can they fluctuate, right,
(10:35):
but this specific area has a higher rate. So then
allen belts wax wayne and depend on solar energy and
sometimes they can damage satellites. And I think you are correct.
We do have a South Atlantic anomaly episode in our future. Today,
most oceanographers or naval experts and scholars and related disciplines
(10:59):
are going to has missed the vast majority of claims
made by Ivan Sanderson and his supporters, and they're gonna
say that's malarkey, don't believe it via vort disease or
a whole another other realm of the made up uh.
And you know, we see this, We see similar things
happen with theories about lay lines or something when they
(11:21):
see people are just drawing lines at random and ascribing
meaning to them. But what exactly is supposed to be
going on here? So in his book UM, which was
probosed ninet nine called The Dragon's Triangle, this author of
Burlitz said that Japan lost five military vessels in the
(11:43):
area that we're talking about between n and that UM
accounts for a loss of somewhere in the neighborhood of
seven hundred sailors. Another author by the name of Dan
Cohen wrote a book in nineteen seventy four called Curses,
Hexes and Spouse Calls, in which he reported that legends
(12:04):
of the Danger of the Devil, ce, Devil's Triangle, what
have you, are centuries old, as far as Japanese lore
goes um so it's most famous modern casualty was the
number five Kyo Maru, which was a scientific research vessel
that disappeared with the loss of everyone on board um
(12:26):
on September twenty four, nineteen fifty three. And that's a
date that's wrongly reported often then yeah, yeah, yeah, um
sometimes nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty eight, but the actual
date is nineteen fifty three. And by any any single
person's measurement, it is it is an enormous tragedy to
(12:49):
lose people. Let's see. But let's let's look at some
of these other claims. There's stories and allegations. That's number
five Kayo Maru. That's the most well known modern one
according to other pro proponents of the idea. As Noel
mentioned just a second ago, the story dates back for centuries.
(13:09):
So you will hear tales of fleets from China and
Kubla Khan going missing in the area. The specific legend
that we're digging around in is one that says in
the twelve hundreds Kubla Khan tried several times to invade
Japan by crossing the Devil's Triangle. In this process, according
to his story, he lost his vessels and he lost
(13:31):
forty thousand men are especially the time. Yes, it is um,
and we mentioned, you know, we we mentioned that they've
wrongly reported the date of that Modern Tragedies nineteen fifty
two or nineteen fifty eight, which lets us know that
things slip a little um with the Cayu Maru. Oftentimes,
(13:56):
the authors who say that this is an example of
somebody being lost in Japan's Bermuda Triangle. Uh, they often
make increasing the unsubstantiated claims, and they say that everything
from visiting Ufo to some sort of lost style electromagnetic fluke.
I didn't say what happened. I knew you were going
(14:18):
to say that I didn't. Oh man, there's an entire
wiki dedicated to lost I'm not yeah, I'm I'm not
standing down on that one. The other examples that we
heresided are often going to be portrayed as military vessels
or large commercial vessels disappearing in calm weather with no
(14:42):
clear explanation. That's the thing where it gets weird for
me is like, you know, you've got these giant vessels
where there's meticulous bookkeeping, they know exactly who's on board,
what's on board, and there's you know, protocol of keeping
in touch with home base. That's the stuff that really
makes me kind of like, thank is this a thing?
You know? Yeah, I absolutely absolutely agree that's the Like,
(15:08):
the ocean is vast and deep, right, but we also
have technology even the fifties that would allow people to
be in if not continual, incredibly frequent communication with someone else,
you know what I mean, Radio existed. Uh. You know,
there's one thing. One of the pieces of research that
(15:29):
we looked at in this I think we should just
mention at this point was Skeptic wid who did an
episode on this and mentions that a lot of the
times the large military vessels from way back in the
day that were reported being missing, we're actually fishing vessels. Um,
just just pointing that out right, I'm glad you mentioned that.
(15:49):
We'll we'll see that coming up again later on in
the show. For now, we've I think we painted some
of the lore and some of the the legend and
the claims. Here, let's take a look at the evidence
evidence after a word from our sponsor. Unfortunately, evidence of
(16:15):
this devil's triangle or see in action is extremely hard
to come by, right Sure, Sure, of course there are
historical records of fishing boats going missing, sinking, or wrecking
throughout regional history, throughout global history, from the ancient past
to the modern day. However, in this instance, there are
no cases of scholars at the time citing a dragon's
(16:38):
triangle or attributing widespread paranormal causes to these tragedies. It
was enough for most of human history to just acknowledge that,
you know, the ocean is a very dangerous and deadly
place and people are not built for it. To be fair,
there were also numerous spiritual explanations for the tragedy, But
I think we canna agree that's a that's a very
(17:00):
different thing made. It's more of a belief system, maybe
even in some level coping mechanism. But we would be
remiss if we did not talk about the kublack Hahn adventure.
Because first things first, there really was an attempted invasion
of Japan by the Mongol forces in the twelve hundred's.
Not only was there one, there was more than one.
(17:22):
I guess anything that isn't one is more than one.
In Cresson zero, somebody saved me here, right. So in
twelve seventy four, the Yuon fleet set out with an
estimated fifteen thousand Mongol and Chinese soldiers and eight thousand
Korean soldiers in three hundred large vessels, and they also
had four hundred to five hundred smaller craft. Um although
(17:47):
figures very widely has to heten do with these things
depending on the source. Man, that is a massive fleet.
It's a pretty pretty mega fleet. Uh So they initially
made significant progress into the area, but then around nightfall,
a typhoon caused the Mongol ship captains to suggest the
land force re embark in order to avoid the risk
(18:08):
of being um, you know, shipwrecked marooned on Japanese soil,
which would be bad times. Right. So they were saying, okay,
the weather is clearly sourings, we need to hop on
the boats here and get back before we are stuck.
And who knows what would have happened. You know, maybe
other supporting Japanese forces could have come to the area.
(18:29):
Can we just set the scene here bends a little bit,
or if you would maybe help. What's what's at stake here?
What is the kind of like the surrounding reason before
this of this event. Well, if we're painting with broad
brush strokes, the typical say, the typical line would be
that the Mongol Empire depended upon expansion, so it's sort
(18:55):
of like unrestricted capitalism. It didn't it could exist without
things to consume, you know what I mean. And also
the Mongol forces of the time, we're not well known
seafaring fighters. They were, they were you know, they didn't
(19:17):
have an awesome navy. They were much more well known
for their ability to wage one horses for their specialized bows,
which were some real, uh, real fascinating stuff. We're talking
about explosives, we're talking about rockets. Uh. But can I
just pause the conversation here for one second, everybody take
(19:38):
one step back. As we're recording this, we're in the
aftermath of Harvey here in the United States, and then
Hurricane Irma is on its way possibly to striking Florida.
Definitely gonna hit the Caribbean islands even coming through Atlanta. Yeah,
imagine in the twelve hundreds, you're, you know, you were
experts at the sea, if you're you know, the captain
(19:58):
of a naval ship back and especially in a military capacity.
Still you don't have Doppler radar from across, you know,
the other side of the ocean to see as a
typhoon is forming and like to really get an understanding
of where it's headed or what's going on. That's that's
an intense situation because you know, it has to be
pretty close just to even see it. You know, I
(20:21):
would I I completely agree. I also would be quick
not to underestimate the knowledges folks have because they're probably
reading the migratory patterns of birds. They're probably noticing little
things that would pass most of us completely by, you know.
But it's a great point. But still it's not But
(20:43):
still you make a great point. It's not comparable to
having Doppler radar or something. By daybreak, only of almost
all the ships had set out to sail back to
mainland China um and those that had. This is where
the Devil's Dragons triangle stuff comes in because those that
(21:04):
have were destroyed by the storm. We're talking about around
two d Mongol ships lost a sea um. The small
Japanese boats were much more maneuverable than the Mongol ships,
and so the remaining ships were on the Mongols I
(21:24):
were boarded by the Japanese and cripple took over. Very
un good double plus bad day for everybody, or double
un plus. I mean, I'm not caught up in. The
Mongols would attempt another invasion just fe years later, in
twelve eighty one. So that is as we can see.
(21:47):
That is like the root of the cryptic references you'll
hear in these vile vortices or dragons triangle books about
uh the the great cons who words were lost in
the well and as as intense and horrifying as being
caught in a typhoon, I'm assuming is I have never
(22:10):
experienced it, but I'm assuming it's intense. Especially then it
would have been considered not such a strange thing, right,
I mean, what people are aware of weather patterns in
the force of nature at that time, and you attribute
it to, you know, whatever you attribute it to, but
generally it's kind of mundane. Was there may be a
(22:31):
sense that like the Bermuda Triangle, in some of these
areas of you know, disturbance, shall we say, are maybe
more prone to extreme weather conditions, and that's sort of
what gives them this reputation because there's just you know,
that far out to see you're gonna get bigger storms
(22:52):
than you are closer to the mainland. I don't know,
that's a great question. One of the things that we
run into a lot here in the modern day is
that authors and critics, opponents and proponents of different ideas
will accuse each other of misleading the audience. So Charles
Burlitz gets accused of sort of editorializing this thing. Um,
(23:15):
this is this instance of a failed invasion and taking
a as Matt said, completely explicable sort of series of
events and reframing it as something in a poorly written
reality TV show. You know, that's the thing about reality
television that just to go a little bit off air here.
(23:37):
I was never the biggest fan, but I had no
idea how much of that stuff is scripted? And carefully
will they call it produced? Beause the like industry term
for that stuff is unscripted, exactly right, And I think, yeah,
I think off air the three of us, at least
of all run into what that looks like a little
(24:00):
bit behind the curtain, you know. And I guarantee you
if you if you watch reality television, I wish you
the best and I hope you have a good time
with it. But to be to be aware that, I'm
sure most people know that every time the camera is
not directly on somebody who is making a big deal
out of an incredibly insignificant problem, there is a producer
(24:22):
or an assistant producer who's sort of grooming them and
coaxing them man in some cases trying to get them drunk.
And this is sort of like that, only the individuals
being described didn't really have a say in it at all.
It's just kind of one guy sort of painting with
a broad brush, I guess, and uh, deciding with the
narrative actually, And I mean we see that all the
(24:43):
time with history. I mean they say history is written
by the by the victors, and this is a little
bit different than that. But I will never forget the
end of the Ozzy Osbourne reality TV show where they
show you the behind the scenes of the scripted parts.
Oh really, yeah, I it blew my mind. Blew my mind.
Ozzy Osborne can read well, and I said it was
(25:07):
a long time ago. When you imagine that was I
guess high school for me. I can't even remember exactly
what it was. But you know, I don't remember where
this came from, and I will try to find it
and put it on our social media. I read somewhere
that there was a study being conducted, genetic study being
(25:28):
conducted on Ozzy Osbourne. I don't know if this was
a hoax, because they were trying to figure out how
he could have done so many drugs and still you know,
not had debilitating disease and still be relatively all there.
I certainly hope he included Keith Richards in that study, right, Yeah,
he should be in there too. Um, we've got to well,
(25:49):
let's see, well, let's give the show a little bit
and see if we can. We can dig that up
as we proceed. But yes, also, to be fair to
Mr Burlet's we have not spoken with him directly, and
to be even even uh, to be even more fair, Um,
(26:13):
this typhoon, this historic typhoon, did occur at an abnormal time.
The invasion took place in November, but the typical Typhoon
season runs from May to October. We've already started talking
about some of the problems with this story, and this
legend American author named Larry Kush published The Bermuda Triangle
(26:39):
Mystery Solved. I know, along the way he debunked or
for many people, he debunked Burlits his claims about the
Bermuda Triangle and the Dragons Triangle. He says that the
military vessels that were mentioned that as we allude to earlier,
were actually just fishing vessels. Now why does that matter, Well,
(27:03):
it matters because fishing vessels are easily lost, and they're
extremely common, right, and they're probably a little bit smaller,
and they're yeah, they're going to be in many cases,
they're gonna be much much smaller, and uh, for those
to get lost is an unfortunate reality of life at sea,
(27:24):
especially if we're considering also that many of the fishing
military vessels have the ability for their story to be known.
They probably have better communications systems, you know, might not
be the case with a lot of smaller, uh, fishing
vessels you know, anywhere from mom and pop operations to
like local businesses or local regional businesses. But there's more. Yes, yes,
(27:50):
as Billy Mays was wont to say, is indeed more
some of those crashes listed by Charles Burlett's sank outside
the area that's the mind as the dragons triangle, that
is that a problem with where they sank or you know,
the boundaries of the Dragons triangle. Maybe it's bigger than
we think, Maybe it is, Maybe it is. Cush also
(28:13):
wrote that the Japanese vessel carried not a hundred personnel,
as burl its a claim, but only thirty one, and
that an undersea volcano is what destroyed it. M Now,
that's peculiar on its in its own right in my mind, yeah,
under see volcano has sound weird. And then okay, another
another problem with this idea. If the legend really does
(28:35):
go back for centuries and centuries, then why isn't there
more scratched that any information about it in the historical
record from any of the countries lining the place where
this this triangle is supposed to exist? And then Enters
(28:55):
skept the skeptoids. Brian Dunning He did or supposedly did
a search for any type of newspaper, magazine, articles, books,
really anything written down specifically about the dragons see Triangle,
Devil's Triangle, all that stuff, and he came up empty
handed until twenty years after the loss of the Cayumaru.
(29:19):
Apparently the story then just became it was, was breathed
into existence. So yeah, apparently this legend of things going
back for centuries was a fairly recent invention, at least
according to Brian Dunning and the research he conducted. The
first written records of the Trian will only show up
(29:40):
in the nineties seventies, and then when they blew up
in the fringe scene, the literature became flooded with accounts
of this new mysterious region, with tales that had been
feared for centuries. Nearly all published references. Again Dunning sites
this as well do as well as a couple of others.
Nearly all published references are from the early seventies, and
they're immediately upon the heels of Ivan Sanderson's articles from
(30:04):
nineteen seventy one two, and all of that stuff led
Downning to conclude that quote, in short, there is no
devil Cy and there never was outside the imagination of
Ivan Sanderson and the authors who wrote about his vile vortices.
But it sounds so great. Vile vortices. They're just really
(30:28):
like disgusting. Yes, yeah, they squeeze toothpaste from the middle.
They picked their noses forgot to shower for about a month.
So uh. Personally, I think the phrase vile vortices sounds
um like a super villain weapon, like something Cobra Commander
(30:50):
would use. Yeah, or a team. It's like a team
of somebody who's really really dastardly. It's just a it's
like a by gang that got a hold of a
thesaurus but didn't read the whole entry from Pokemon. So
we we do, you know, we do hate to look.
(31:15):
We all want to believe in these amazing extraordinary things.
And the long and short of it is, in the
research that we found, in primary historical sources and in
common parlance in the area, this is largely considered a myth,
and it's not treated with near as much prominence as
(31:39):
several other local or regional h extraordinary events or beliefs.
And this is in many ways kind of a Western thing. Yeah,
it's a It's a thing that people in the coast
of China and in the coast of Japan don't really
think about, give near as much credence to it feels
(32:02):
like a tale of the other Yeah, yeah, and haven't
for uh certainly haven't been worrying about it for centuries.
Most people are you know, uh, families or friends on
the coast, just hoping their loved ones make it back.
Before you know, a storm hits or disaster occurs, which
(32:23):
are real dangerous. But we're not ending the tail there yet.
We do have some explanations a peak if you will,
behind the curtain, after a word from our sponsors, welcome back,
(32:43):
ladies and gentlemen. As we promised before the break, we
have some possible explanations for some of these bizarre occurrences
in the Devil's Sea. Um. Starting off, there's pretty much
no way around it. But boats and ships and vessels
you know what float uh, they really have disappeared in
(33:05):
this area of the Pacific, you know quite a bit
in fact, um that much is true. But what's the
deal with the triangle or with with all of the triangles?
You know what? Why? What? Very the second like, what's
the deal with that? Any seinfeld bit seinfeld e rooney
too interesting? But really really really really yes, what's going on?
(33:34):
Why aren't there more devil's squares or Devil's octagons. Obviously,
you know you gotta have some hangs and angles, Devil's pentagram.
Come on, that's what I'm saying. You know you Devil's
not a square. The Devil's not a circle, alright, Devil
is clearly a triangle or a series of triangles shaped
like a goat's head. Literally, edgy, Okay, too much, that's fine, Um,
(33:57):
but yeah, like that's true. But what's what why? So
you know we there there is research that explorers some
of these environmental changes um as the cause of such
anomalies as said, triangle triangles. Um. One of these explanations
is that the vast field of methane hydrates that exists
(34:22):
at the bottom of the ocean in that area could
potentially have something to do with these disturbances that we
talked about. The originally of some people attributed to an
electromagnetic lost kind of situation. These are to me the
existence of these So yeah, this is this is very unfair.
(34:46):
Nature's brutal and unfair. This is one example Nature doesn't
care about you. No, not at all. Uh. There are
these deposits of methane hydrates gas that thing class rates,
and when they reach a certain temperature, they will quote
unquote explode that temperature just so you know, is not
(35:10):
very insane in sixty four degrees thankfully there you know
the bottom of the ocean. Yeah, they're these ice like
deposits that break off from the bottom and they can rise,
forming bubbles on the surface of the water. And again
this is just like, this is the scary part. This theoretical. Uh,
(35:30):
these gas eruptions could interrupt buoyancy. What this means is
they could easily sink a ship, leaving no trace of debris.
You would just be sailing along and then like it
would suck you down. Essentially, it almost you lose buoyancy,
so you would just you're the ship will just go.
When I pictured your Bermuda triangle, that's kind of what
(35:53):
I've always pictured is something like that. So that's pretty wild.
See in my head, it's it's a vortex essentially. So
you're saying it literally just disrupts the ability of your
vessel to float. It would be like a bunch of
air bubbles down below your ship that you're going over
(36:13):
and you just kind of and it's not exactly that
because I pictured like the water just opening up in
like a hole and then you just fall down. And
I always pictured, you know, I remember so many films
or older, older things, like episodes of the Twilight Zone,
where there would be this gray, all enveloping fall rolling
(36:37):
in and then you know, the the captain or the
pilot of a plane, for instance, they do the thing
where they tap their there yea, their compass and stuff
and the altimeter and everything's going crazy and next thing
you know, it opens up in there in a weird
unknown land. But then they crashed or they're like on
(36:57):
top of a mountain or something. I remember, really, I gotta,
I gotta harp on this. So the water is affected
in such a way that it will not support the
weight of the ship. So here's here's the problem. No
one has ever seen an actual eruption like this. You
wouldn't No one would be left to tell the tale.
(37:19):
No one knows how large the bubbles coming off the
methane deposit would be. But theory, but yeah, but the
scientists who pump your brakes, but the but the the
There are scientists who have conducted research on this, and
they found that they made a model of a single
large bubble coming up under a ship, and they trapped
(37:40):
trapped water between vertical class plates. They launched gas bubbles
from the bottom right, and they used a video camera
to record what happened to this whole they have floating
on the surface. If the thing is exactly above the bubble,
then it's safe. But if it's far enough way, if
it's where it's towards the edge, that it just sinks
(38:02):
in and so it doesn't explode, the bubble sort of
swallows it for lack of a better word, which to
me is more frightening than an explosion. No, you're helping
me out real big with my mental image of this phenomenon.
It's freaking me out. Uh this is is this uh
the best advertisement for cruise ever? I don't really. I
(38:24):
don't want to be that far out in the other man,
you know, we just did the Titanic. I mean, like,
come on, we really are scaring people away from you know,
being on the ocean right now. Well, no reason to
stop yet, because there's a different explanation, right should we
get into great white sharks instead? You know? Because yeah,
what's up with you? Save that for another day. I'm
(38:46):
just saying, like, another reason why I don't like to
swim in the ocean. Bo okay, let's keep going. Oh okay, Well,
another reason that ships could disappear more frequently in this
area would be that small isle in this triangle and
the dragons triangle UH frequently disappear in new islands frequently
(39:07):
up here due to um volcanoes and seismic activity. We
cannot forget, ladies and gentlemen, about the Ring of Fire.
The Ring of Fire is this huge twenty five thousand
mile horseshoe shaped area in the basin of the Pacific
Ocean down there at the bottom, including in the area
that we consider to be the Devil's Sea. It's uh.
(39:31):
It's home to just a ton of earthquakes and volcanic
activity down there. It's associated with almost a continuous creation
of trenches, oceanic trenches, of volcanic arcs, volcanic belts, plate movements,
and it has over four hundred and fifty volcanoes. That's
over seventy of the world's active and dormant volcanoes exist
(39:54):
in this Ring of fire down at the bottom of
the ocean. So is it possible that a volcanic eruption
on the ocean floor could reach a ship. Well, yeah,
you're just talking about the release of gases again as
the you know, the immense heat that's being generated right
below where the water is and then coming up and
(40:15):
meeting with that water, creating steam that has to get
pushed up. Again, you're talking about swallowing ships potentially. I
know that. Um, this is this kind of ridiculous. Twenty fifteen,
there was an active underwater volcano that was that came
to life off of Granada and you guys will really
(40:38):
enjoy the name. Are you ready? It was called the
kick Him Jenny volcano. Kick him Jenny. Yeah, yeah, like
that like three words. If it's New Zealand, Uh, keep
him kick him Jimmy, Jimmy or Jenny. Yeah, oh boy,
(40:58):
everybody and everybody in New Zealand. We apologize we've been
practicing this accident. I don't think we have any New
Zealand listeners left at this point. No, right in and
let us know, actually, let us know about Keyweek conspiracies too.
We'd love to hear those. Um. So the problem with
this is I'm bringing this up because this is a
(41:20):
good um, this is a good specific example of the
problems here because not only is a underwater volcano powerful enough,
as as Matt said, to affect the surface, but it
could even shoot hot rocks into the air. Uh, these
(41:41):
can be massive. In the case of kick Him Jenny Um,
scientists set up an exclusion zone for ships around the volcano.
Recreational ships had to stay three miles away from it,
and I think commercial ships had to stay a mile
or two away just in case. So it is completely
possible that some of these ships, maybe even the Maru
(42:05):
that we mentioned earlier number five, it is possible that
these ships were instead the victims of volcanoes. Wow. That's
terrifying and for me, much more terrifying than a mysterious
devil's area. Yeah, what about mysterious gas bubbles? That's that's
that's the one that gives me pause. Yeah, I feel
(42:26):
like a fiery death at c is Um more understandable
than just all this sudden saying, oh we're on the water,
now we're in it. Why can't I breathe? Yeah, Yeah,
that's the thing that I mean, like a fiery death
and see, it seems like it would leave behind more
flotsam and jetsam and whatnot, and like the whole you know,
kicker of these of these places usually tends to be
(42:50):
gone without a trace, right, Like that's sort of like
the the calling card. I guess, yeah, and then if
you do find them, it's you know, fifty two hundreds
of years it or at the bottom of the sea.
And we'd like to know what We would like to
know what your experiences are, your maritime experiences, and most importantly,
(43:11):
what your take is on these ideas of uh the
Bermuda triangle, the Dragons triangle. Also, you know, I want
to ask people, well, which idea about this vile vortices
thing in general, because we would love to hear about
a source that comes from before the nineteen fifties. Let's say,
(43:34):
you know, I do you live near one, right? Could
you go check it out? Or have you had any
experiences there? That's how we find out if we have
any friends in the Eastern Islands. If so, we may
be coming to uh your house to crash. Will be
there in two weeks? And is it? Will it take
(43:55):
us two weeks? Well, it's just there's a lot of
planning that goes into that. That's probably true. Ye, uh
so unfortunately, Yeah, a lot of the stuff about this
seems to have sprung up after the fact with a
little supporting evidence in the preceding literature. However, we do
know that there is absolutely nothing fictitious about losing ships
(44:17):
at sea. According to a maritime assure named Alian's, losses
at sea continue in the modern day. Yeah, I mean
this is still clearly happening. We've got UM stats from
two thousand seven to indicating that the area comprising South China, Indonesia,
and the Philippines UM counted two hundred and forty nine
(44:39):
lost ships, while the area north of that think Japan,
the Korean Peninsula in the like counted a hundred and
thirty three lost vessels. And these numbers are actually on
the decline thankfully. Yeah. The maritime industry on the whole
has seen the total number of losses decrease UM during
(45:06):
five and then the number of incidents or casualties also
is on a year over year UM downturn. And according
to a another report from Alian's, one of the big
questions would be how many ships disappeared without a trace
right overall UM from two thousand two thousand and thirteen,
(45:31):
there were only seven that were considered what they call
missing slash overdue. So you can still be missing for
two years and be overdue. Wow, missing for two years.
Let's see, it's not a fate I want to experience.
And so concludes our show. You know what we haven't
done in a little while? Is it at Gona? Our
(45:58):
first shoutout gos to Nick says high gang, love your show.
In the Effervescent episode three hundred, you mentioned blood donations.
I think it was a nine nine Pie podcast or
maybe radio lab where I first heard that donated blood
is a big business and that hospitals seek out more
blood than they need to sell it to other hospitals.
(46:20):
It might even have been stuff to blow your mind to,
come to think of it. Well, you need to get
your podcast straight, Nick, come on. In the process, in
the process, lots of plasma gets thrown away. Apparently, here
are a couple of links that go that take us
down this rabbit hole. So we sent us some great
stuff from w PTV. And then there's a nice little
(46:40):
reddit today. I learned section here. So we're gonna dive
into this, Nick and uh, we'll report back with what
we find. Literal blood money about plasma money same ring
to it doesn't it's a wave of the future though, right,
Plasma money, that's where all the money is. Let's get
in early. Our next shout out comes from Nicole. Hi, Guys,
(47:04):
what happened to the video podcast in the iTunes store?
I haven't received any new updates in quite some time?
Are the podcast audio only now? Thanks Nicole? Uh. We
mentioned the top of the show, we had some changes
in the works in terms of some investment in our
company and um, the podcast business. I guess he could say,
spinning off from the how stuff works in general. Uh.
(47:26):
With that has come kind of an emphasis on the podcasts,
and that means a less video and you know, Matt
and beyond the iTunes store, Apple Podcast Video Store, we
have put a pause on our video production for the
stuff they don't want you to know video series, specifically
(47:47):
on our YouTube channel, UM and anywhere else that you've
been watching our show, maybe on on Amazon, and we're
just putting a pause on that. Like Noel said, to
focus on this show. Uh, this thing that people who
make more money than us and make decisions above us
have faith in. So we're gonna keep going with it.
But there may be like opportunities online to supplement some
(48:08):
of the stuff we do here with some video stuff
for SOUF. We'll see but you know, a lot of
exciting new stuff coming down the pike, but we're not
fully aware of all of it yet. And thanks so
much for writing in Nicole. We have one more shout
out for today, but it's a it's a bit of
a doozy, so get comfortable in your seat or scoot
(48:28):
to the edge of it, you know, wherever you prefer
to encounter doozy messages. Uh hey, guys, says Laura B.
I just listened to your podcast about America's Zone of Death,
and I'm actually a former student Professor coult I attached
the photo of his class syllabus to prove it. I
really appreciate you guys giving him credit for this topic
because it's been showing up a lot on social media
(48:49):
without him being credited at all. That's a real that's
a real pill, I, Laura, I find that personally offensive. Um,
that was me, Ben, that wasn't Laura. Laurie continues, You
guys should give professor call to Google because he has
also written on a wide variety of other super interesting,
little discussed topics and I'm sure he'd be more than
(49:09):
happy to talk with you guys. Keep up the good work, Laura,
thank you so much for writing in Laura. And here's
the bonus. Here's the doozy part. Professor Kay did right
back to us. He wrote back to us yesterday, I think,
and his his email was very, very kind, to the
(49:33):
point where I was thinking, Man, I wish you were
my professor. He uh, we'll just read some some brief
highlights here. Uh what they really liked wash, He said,
a few points. I heard and enjoyed your podcast about
my Yellowstone theory. I wanted to reach out offer my
enthusiastic participation with whatever else you want to do with
(49:53):
the subject. And also on the pardon power. As you mentioned.
A few points that came to mind as I listened.
One you called me doctor cult, but like so many
law professors, I'm not a PhD. Also, I pronounced cult
like halt or salt, not kilt. Uh. No worries, though
I've been called far worse. I think this guy's it creates.
It's a humor too. In case you get me feedback
(50:15):
on the Yellowstone theory, A very common responses that the
state of Idaho would just prosecute you and That's true
of most national parks. If the Feds couldn't prosecute you,
the state would be able to step in. But in
a few of them, like Yellowstone, the FEDS have exclusive jurisdictions,
so that's no go. Three, it's worth mentioning that if
you tried to use the loophole, you would still be
subject to get ensued civil liability and prosecuted for misdemeanors
(50:39):
for which you have no right to a jury trial.
You also would not be able to use the loophole
if you did any part of the crime, like forming
your intent or conspiring outside the zone. Oh man, you
know what that means. We're already guilty. Our our moonshine
operation already went elbows up. Uh. Perhaps most importantly, if
you're thinking employing something, there's probably someone else there with
(51:01):
the same idea, and he's bigger than you. All of
this eliminates much of the loophole's usefulness to would be criminals.
I still think the loophole is worth fixing, though, even
with all the reasons why it's limited and why it
might not work, there really is no good reason not
to fix it and just color inside the lines on
pardons Number One, you mentioned pardons declaring you guilty. I
(51:24):
wrote a short piece and attempt to do disabuse people
of that notion. And so he has a piece in
the Wall Street Journal that he refers to pardons aren't
only for the guilty. And two he said self pardoning
was the subject of my first legal article in the
chapter of my book in two thousand twelve. If you're
ever interested in doing anything on pardons, I'd love to help.
(51:46):
And he also recommends uh chapter from a book called
Constitutional Cliffhangers, a legal guy for presidents and their enemies. Uh,
And it's on the loophole in the twenty second Amendment
that could allow a two term president to stay in power. Oh,
I want to do both of those. Do you want
to both be uh president state of power? Yeah, the
(52:07):
that specifically as well as self partnering and partnering in general.
I just want to learn more about that, and I
think people have to would want to as well. Yeah,
let us know if you'd like to learn more about
legal loopholes. And we are going to be following up
with our new favorite law professor. And for now this
concludes our Gosh but not our show. If fear not
(52:33):
ladies and gentlemen. We will return next week with something
uh strange, either very new or very ancient and eldredge
but nonetheless fascinating. In the meantime, if you want to
get in touch with us, you can do the social
media thing. We are conspiracy stuff on Facebook and Twitter.
If you want to do the Instagram thing, we are
conspiracy stuff show and Matt, I think there's a there's
(52:55):
a there's another way. We always talk about if people
don't want to do any of that stuff, what is
that It's three candles in a triangle. You have to
be in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and there's
one this area between Taiwan some volcanic islands anyway on
a raft made of cadavers. Yep, that's new raft, that's
(53:16):
new foreen. But that's definitely in the in the rules.
So if you don't want to do any of that
stuff in the cadaver boat just really doesn't you know,
strike your fancy, you can just write us an email.
We are conspiracy at house stuff works dot com.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,
(00:24):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is Noman. They call me Ben. You are you?
And that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
We are joined by our super producer Alex Williams in
the on the ones and twos today in the booth.
Are there more than one? Now? Yeah, we have a
we have we've expanded in twos and threes by my account.
That's fair. Oh you meant more than one? Whatever stereo channels,
(00:49):
it's true. There you go. That's the ones in the
twos except our m P three's are monos, so we're
working on changing them. Yeah, we're working on all sorts
of things today. And if we don't take a if
we don't take an ill fated trip, all of those
things would come true. Just a bit of a bureaucratic
notation here. Before we begin today's episode, you're going to
(01:11):
see some uh, some big changes coming up with the
stuff they'll want you to know. Should we give him
the full scoop? I don't know, I don't know to
inside Baseball or should we do like a dipp and
dot kind of thing. We could just say we've been
hashtag blessed with funding from on High, which could mean
(01:32):
more and more shows, expansions. And there's a technature. Yeah,
there's a tech Crunch article you can find if you
wish to learn all about it. M M. Yeah. And
we are you know, we have our parent company How
Stuff Works. We are now officially our own thing with
how Stuff Works. So now if now, if Matt Nolan,
(01:56):
I say, uh, this goes all the way to the top,
we're talking about the guy who works next next to us. Okay.
In our previous episode, well the episode we previously recorded,
we mentioned some maritime adventures, right, Noel, you and I
have not been on cruises, however our compatriot has. Yes,
(02:21):
do we want to rehash the cruises again? Boys? You
were you weren't? You didn't hate it? I didn't hate it,
And uh, it was a thing. It was a thing
that happened, Yes, and it was a creepy and cruise right,
which brought us to brought you perhaps to something that
many people have heard of, the Bermuda Triangle. Yes, I
(02:46):
was near it, but not in it. And yet here
you sit right, I made it through, you guys reporting back.
It was it was a little weird, but it was cool.
And that is the as you know that as the
alleged side of numerous plane crashes, boat sinkings, and disappearances. Yeah,
(03:08):
but today we're going to examine the alleged Eastern version
of this, the so called Devil's Triangle. According to legends,
there have been tens of thousands of people who have
tried to cross this stretch of ocean, only to perish
or disappear in the attempt. In the modern era, so
(03:29):
it goes to the story, several Japanese research and military
vessels have also gone missing in this triangle, leading to
a number of dead and disappeared estimated to be over
seven people. Pretty pretty hefty stuff. Uh well, we'll get
those claims in a bit. First, let's let's look at
the facts. What are we talking about when we say
(03:51):
Devil's Triangle. Well, it's not only known at the Devil's Triangle.
It's also called the Devil's see the Dragon's Triangle and
the Taiwan Triangle. And just as with the Bermuda triangle.
It's even sometimes called the Devil's triangle. Dont donte dom Yeah,
so it gets weird when we ask each other, you know, well,
(04:13):
where is this? What was devil c Dragons triangle, Taiwan triangle? Ah,
because there's no official world map that plots this. Yeah,
it's written all over the place online where it's supposed
to run from. You know, it's a triangle. So in
theory it should have some pretty defined areas in which it,
(04:36):
you know, is affecting the world around it. Usually it's
said to run from Taiwan up to the volcanic island
of Miyake Jima that's just south of Tokyo, and then
to about Iwa Jima or somewhere in that vicinity pretty close.
Both of those locations are along something called the Ezo
moaning volcanic arc that's a laye of underwater volcano. It
(05:00):
was an islands that stretch well, they're part of a
larger system that stretches kilometers all the way from Japan
to Guam. And some people like the author Charles Burletts,
say that the Devil's see, which I think is my
favorite name so far. What do you think I think
Devil's see is quite I like ascribing a shape to it,
(05:21):
implying that it's sort of a zone. See, it's pretty
like the whole sea. Yeah, it's a scene that exists
in itself. That's a good point. We didn't need to
have parameters. Well, according to this author, Charles Burlets, the
Devil's Triangle is every bit as dangerous and mysterious as
(05:42):
the Bermuda Triangle. And we can imagine right now, how uh,
the people who are very dismissive of the Bermuda Triangle
might find this hilarious. Somebody is actually in their car
right now going that is true. Oh me, oh my,
(06:02):
for sure. But then there are other people in the
audiences who, as soon as they hear Devil's Triangle, they
think of the vile vortices, which is something that has
been traded around amongst the mysteriously minded for quite a while.
Vile vortices. Okay, what what's a vile vortes? Oh wait,
(06:23):
that's the plural. What are vile vortices? Man? Well, a
vile vortex is a concept. Really, it's the idea that
there's perhaps something strange going on with either the Earth's
electromagnetic system it's the way it functions. Maybe it's a
little stronger in this place than anywhere else. And odd
(06:46):
things tend to happen with metal objects and living beings. Okay,
all right, So the idea then is that these are
distributed across the planet. Yes, precisely, there are. There is
a map of sorts that you can find, and it
(07:06):
shows you where there's one at the North pole, and
there's one of the South pole, and then the rest
of them are kind of polka dotted in a pattern,
albeit across the Earth. And we can trace this idea
specifically to the author Ivan T. Sanderson, and he is
at the source of a lot of these claims. When
he first proposed this concept, other authors took it up
(07:30):
and they attributed different causes as the source of the
alleged disruption. Right. So, like you said, Matt, electromagnetic stuff
gateway to hell um, paranormal things port to another dimension
maybe extra dimensional, yeah, extra dimensional portals. And we have
a rundown of the of the vortices that that you mentioned, Matt,
(07:55):
that are distributed across the planet. Ladies and gentlemen, would
you like to know where they are? Okay, let's start
at the North and South Pole. If that's okay, just
because that's kind of obvious. If you're talking about electromagnetic strangeness,
you're gonna have perhaps some things going on at the
North and South Pole. Then you move on to the
Bermuda Triangle. That's the you know, the granddaddy of these vortices. Uh.
(08:20):
Then you got the Algerian Megaaliths. This is just south
of Timbuck two uh. And there you can find this
stuff online if you want to learn more about these
other specific vortices, and perhaps you know, we can pick
some of these up later. The Intes Valley over in Pakistan,
there's oh, there's a volcano just east of Hawaii. That's
(08:43):
a pretty interesting place. We got the Devil c the
one we're talking about today, the Triangle, whatever you wanna
call it. There's a oh, well, I'm gonna save this
one for last, the Wharton Basin, and you can you
can find a link to that on Kipedian. Check that out.
The Easter Island. Make a list of the statues the
(09:04):
just east of Rio de Janeiro. There's a section an
area over there that's said to be part of this
The Loyalty Islands, which are I believe between just north
of the intersection, or I guess the area between New
Zealand and Australia. Then my favorite one by far the
South Atlantic anomaly, which perhaps is this whole separate episode
(09:28):
on its own. It's this place where the Van Allen
Belts dip a little bit closer to Earth than the
rest of the belts. So you have this radiation at
x miles above the Earth that's much higher than it
should be and is in any other part of the
Earth and can interfere with high altitude orbital craft as
(09:49):
well as spacecraft. Right. Yeah, Even astronauts have reported, specifically
those above on the Space Shuttle when we would orbit,
that they would get the the shooting stars in their
eyes when they would go near that area. So then
later on down the road they had to improve the
radiation shielding for any other vessels, specifically the International Space Station. Folks,
(10:11):
they don't know the vent Alan Belts are like, it's
like a charged area in the atmosphere. Yeah, it's uh,
it's the things. These are the major reason that people
one of the major reasons that people believe we never
went to the Moon because you couldn't get through that
in theory, right right, yeah, and these can they fluctuate, right,
(10:35):
but this specific area has a higher rate. So then
allen belts wax wayne and depend on solar energy and
sometimes they can damage satellites. And I think you are correct.
We do have a South Atlantic anomaly episode in our future. Today,
most oceanographers or naval experts and scholars and related disciplines
(10:59):
are going to has missed the vast majority of claims
made by Ivan Sanderson and his supporters, and they're gonna
say that's malarkey, don't believe it via vort disease or
a whole another other realm of the made up uh.
And you know, we see this, We see similar things
happen with theories about lay lines or something when they
(11:21):
see people are just drawing lines at random and ascribing
meaning to them. But what exactly is supposed to be
going on here? So in his book UM, which was
probosed ninet nine called The Dragon's Triangle, this author of
Burlitz said that Japan lost five military vessels in the
(11:43):
area that we're talking about between n and that UM
accounts for a loss of somewhere in the neighborhood of
seven hundred sailors. Another author by the name of Dan
Cohen wrote a book in nineteen seventy four called Curses,
Hexes and Spouse Calls, in which he reported that legends
(12:04):
of the Danger of the Devil, ce, Devil's Triangle, what
have you, are centuries old, as far as Japanese lore
goes um so it's most famous modern casualty was the
number five Kyo Maru, which was a scientific research vessel
that disappeared with the loss of everyone on board um
(12:26):
on September twenty four, nineteen fifty three. And that's a
date that's wrongly reported often then yeah, yeah, yeah, um
sometimes nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty eight, but the actual
date is nineteen fifty three. And by any any single
person's measurement, it is it is an enormous tragedy to
(12:49):
lose people. Let's see. But let's let's look at some
of these other claims. There's stories and allegations. That's number
five Kayo Maru. That's the most well known modern one
according to other pro proponents of the idea. As Noel
mentioned just a second ago, the story dates back for centuries.
(13:09):
So you will hear tales of fleets from China and
Kubla Khan going missing in the area. The specific legend
that we're digging around in is one that says in
the twelve hundreds Kubla Khan tried several times to invade
Japan by crossing the Devil's Triangle. In this process, according
to his story, he lost his vessels and he lost
(13:31):
forty thousand men are especially the time. Yes, it is um,
and we mentioned, you know, we we mentioned that they've
wrongly reported the date of that Modern Tragedies nineteen fifty
two or nineteen fifty eight, which lets us know that
things slip a little um with the Cayu Maru. Oftentimes,
(13:56):
the authors who say that this is an example of
somebody being lost in Japan's Bermuda Triangle. Uh, they often
make increasing the unsubstantiated claims, and they say that everything
from visiting Ufo to some sort of lost style electromagnetic fluke.
I didn't say what happened. I knew you were going
(14:18):
to say that I didn't. Oh man, there's an entire
wiki dedicated to lost I'm not yeah, I'm I'm not
standing down on that one. The other examples that we
heresided are often going to be portrayed as military vessels
or large commercial vessels disappearing in calm weather with no
(14:42):
clear explanation. That's the thing where it gets weird for
me is like, you know, you've got these giant vessels
where there's meticulous bookkeeping, they know exactly who's on board,
what's on board, and there's you know, protocol of keeping
in touch with home base. That's the stuff that really
makes me kind of like, thank is this a thing?
You know? Yeah, I absolutely absolutely agree that's the Like,
(15:08):
the ocean is vast and deep, right, but we also
have technology even the fifties that would allow people to
be in if not continual, incredibly frequent communication with someone else,
you know what I mean, Radio existed. Uh. You know,
there's one thing. One of the pieces of research that
(15:29):
we looked at in this I think we should just
mention at this point was Skeptic wid who did an
episode on this and mentions that a lot of the
times the large military vessels from way back in the
day that were reported being missing, we're actually fishing vessels. Um,
just just pointing that out right, I'm glad you mentioned that.
(15:49):
We'll we'll see that coming up again later on in
the show. For now, we've I think we painted some
of the lore and some of the the legend and
the claims. Here, let's take a look at the evidence
evidence after a word from our sponsor. Unfortunately, evidence of
(16:15):
this devil's triangle or see in action is extremely hard
to come by, right Sure, Sure, of course there are
historical records of fishing boats going missing, sinking, or wrecking
throughout regional history, throughout global history, from the ancient past
to the modern day. However, in this instance, there are
no cases of scholars at the time citing a dragon's
(16:38):
triangle or attributing widespread paranormal causes to these tragedies. It
was enough for most of human history to just acknowledge that,
you know, the ocean is a very dangerous and deadly
place and people are not built for it. To be fair,
there were also numerous spiritual explanations for the tragedy, But
I think we canna agree that's a that's a very
(17:00):
different thing made. It's more of a belief system, maybe
even in some level coping mechanism. But we would be
remiss if we did not talk about the kublack Hahn adventure.
Because first things first, there really was an attempted invasion
of Japan by the Mongol forces in the twelve hundred's.
Not only was there one, there was more than one.
(17:22):
I guess anything that isn't one is more than one.
In Cresson zero, somebody saved me here, right. So in
twelve seventy four, the Yuon fleet set out with an
estimated fifteen thousand Mongol and Chinese soldiers and eight thousand
Korean soldiers in three hundred large vessels, and they also
had four hundred to five hundred smaller craft. Um although
(17:47):
figures very widely has to heten do with these things
depending on the source. Man, that is a massive fleet.
It's a pretty pretty mega fleet. Uh So they initially
made significant progress into the area, but then around nightfall,
a typhoon caused the Mongol ship captains to suggest the
land force re embark in order to avoid the risk
(18:08):
of being um, you know, shipwrecked marooned on Japanese soil,
which would be bad times. Right. So they were saying, okay,
the weather is clearly sourings, we need to hop on
the boats here and get back before we are stuck.
And who knows what would have happened. You know, maybe
other supporting Japanese forces could have come to the area.
(18:29):
Can we just set the scene here bends a little bit,
or if you would maybe help. What's what's at stake here?
What is the kind of like the surrounding reason before
this of this event. Well, if we're painting with broad
brush strokes, the typical say, the typical line would be
that the Mongol Empire depended upon expansion, so it's sort
(18:55):
of like unrestricted capitalism. It didn't it could exist without
things to consume, you know what I mean. And also
the Mongol forces of the time, we're not well known
seafaring fighters. They were, they were you know, they didn't
(19:17):
have an awesome navy. They were much more well known
for their ability to wage one horses for their specialized bows,
which were some real, uh, real fascinating stuff. We're talking
about explosives, we're talking about rockets. Uh. But can I
just pause the conversation here for one second, everybody take
(19:38):
one step back. As we're recording this, we're in the
aftermath of Harvey here in the United States, and then
Hurricane Irma is on its way possibly to striking Florida.
Definitely gonna hit the Caribbean islands even coming through Atlanta. Yeah,
imagine in the twelve hundreds, you're, you know, you were
experts at the sea, if you're you know, the captain
(19:58):
of a naval ship back and especially in a military capacity.
Still you don't have Doppler radar from across, you know,
the other side of the ocean to see as a
typhoon is forming and like to really get an understanding
of where it's headed or what's going on. That's that's
an intense situation because you know, it has to be
pretty close just to even see it. You know, I
(20:21):
would I I completely agree. I also would be quick
not to underestimate the knowledges folks have because they're probably
reading the migratory patterns of birds. They're probably noticing little
things that would pass most of us completely by, you know.
But it's a great point. But still it's not But
(20:43):
still you make a great point. It's not comparable to
having Doppler radar or something. By daybreak, only of almost
all the ships had set out to sail back to
mainland China um and those that had. This is where
the Devil's Dragons triangle stuff comes in because those that
(21:04):
have were destroyed by the storm. We're talking about around
two d Mongol ships lost a sea um. The small
Japanese boats were much more maneuverable than the Mongol ships,
and so the remaining ships were on the Mongols I
(21:24):
were boarded by the Japanese and cripple took over. Very
un good double plus bad day for everybody, or double
un plus. I mean, I'm not caught up in. The
Mongols would attempt another invasion just fe years later, in
twelve eighty one. So that is as we can see.
(21:47):
That is like the root of the cryptic references you'll
hear in these vile vortices or dragons triangle books about
uh the the great cons who words were lost in
the well and as as intense and horrifying as being
caught in a typhoon, I'm assuming is I have never
(22:10):
experienced it, but I'm assuming it's intense. Especially then it
would have been considered not such a strange thing, right,
I mean, what people are aware of weather patterns in
the force of nature at that time, and you attribute
it to, you know, whatever you attribute it to, but
generally it's kind of mundane. Was there may be a
(22:31):
sense that like the Bermuda Triangle, in some of these
areas of you know, disturbance, shall we say, are maybe
more prone to extreme weather conditions, and that's sort of
what gives them this reputation because there's just you know,
that far out to see you're gonna get bigger storms
(22:52):
than you are closer to the mainland. I don't know,
that's a great question. One of the things that we
run into a lot here in the modern day is
that authors and critics, opponents and proponents of different ideas
will accuse each other of misleading the audience. So Charles
Burlitz gets accused of sort of editorializing this thing. Um,
(23:15):
this is this instance of a failed invasion and taking
a as Matt said, completely explicable sort of series of
events and reframing it as something in a poorly written
reality TV show. You know, that's the thing about reality
television that just to go a little bit off air here.
(23:37):
I was never the biggest fan, but I had no
idea how much of that stuff is scripted? And carefully
will they call it produced? Beause the like industry term
for that stuff is unscripted, exactly right, And I think, yeah,
I think off air the three of us, at least
of all run into what that looks like a little
(24:00):
bit behind the curtain, you know. And I guarantee you
if you if you watch reality television, I wish you
the best and I hope you have a good time
with it. But to be to be aware that, I'm
sure most people know that every time the camera is
not directly on somebody who is making a big deal
out of an incredibly insignificant problem, there is a producer
(24:22):
or an assistant producer who's sort of grooming them and
coaxing them man in some cases trying to get them drunk.
And this is sort of like that, only the individuals
being described didn't really have a say in it at all.
It's just kind of one guy sort of painting with
a broad brush, I guess, and uh, deciding with the
narrative actually, And I mean we see that all the
(24:43):
time with history. I mean they say history is written
by the by the victors, and this is a little
bit different than that. But I will never forget the
end of the Ozzy Osbourne reality TV show where they
show you the behind the scenes of the scripted parts.
Oh really, yeah, I it blew my mind. Blew my mind.
Ozzy Osborne can read well, and I said it was
(25:07):
a long time ago. When you imagine that was I
guess high school for me. I can't even remember exactly
what it was. But you know, I don't remember where
this came from, and I will try to find it
and put it on our social media. I read somewhere
that there was a study being conducted, genetic study being
(25:28):
conducted on Ozzy Osbourne. I don't know if this was
a hoax, because they were trying to figure out how
he could have done so many drugs and still you know,
not had debilitating disease and still be relatively all there.
I certainly hope he included Keith Richards in that study, right, Yeah,
he should be in there too. Um, we've got to well,
(25:49):
let's see, well, let's give the show a little bit
and see if we can. We can dig that up
as we proceed. But yes, also, to be fair to
Mr Burlet's we have not spoken with him directly, and
to be even even uh, to be even more fair, Um,
(26:13):
this typhoon, this historic typhoon, did occur at an abnormal time.
The invasion took place in November, but the typical Typhoon
season runs from May to October. We've already started talking
about some of the problems with this story, and this
legend American author named Larry Kush published The Bermuda Triangle
(26:39):
Mystery Solved. I know, along the way he debunked or
for many people, he debunked Burlits his claims about the
Bermuda Triangle and the Dragons Triangle. He says that the
military vessels that were mentioned that as we allude to earlier,
were actually just fishing vessels. Now why does that matter, Well,
(27:03):
it matters because fishing vessels are easily lost, and they're
extremely common, right, and they're probably a little bit smaller,
and they're yeah, they're going to be in many cases,
they're gonna be much much smaller, and uh, for those
to get lost is an unfortunate reality of life at sea,
(27:24):
especially if we're considering also that many of the fishing
military vessels have the ability for their story to be known.
They probably have better communications systems, you know, might not
be the case with a lot of smaller, uh, fishing
vessels you know, anywhere from mom and pop operations to
like local businesses or local regional businesses. But there's more. Yes, yes,
(27:50):
as Billy Mays was wont to say, is indeed more
some of those crashes listed by Charles Burlett's sank outside
the area that's the mind as the dragons triangle, that
is that a problem with where they sank or you know,
the boundaries of the Dragons triangle. Maybe it's bigger than
we think, Maybe it is, Maybe it is. Cush also
(28:13):
wrote that the Japanese vessel carried not a hundred personnel,
as burl its a claim, but only thirty one, and
that an undersea volcano is what destroyed it. M Now,
that's peculiar on its in its own right in my mind, yeah,
under see volcano has sound weird. And then okay, another
another problem with this idea. If the legend really does
(28:35):
go back for centuries and centuries, then why isn't there
more scratched that any information about it in the historical
record from any of the countries lining the place where
this this triangle is supposed to exist? And then Enters
(28:55):
skept the skeptoids. Brian Dunning He did or supposedly did
a search for any type of newspaper, magazine, articles, books,
really anything written down specifically about the dragons see Triangle,
Devil's Triangle, all that stuff, and he came up empty
handed until twenty years after the loss of the Cayumaru.
(29:19):
Apparently the story then just became it was, was breathed
into existence. So yeah, apparently this legend of things going
back for centuries was a fairly recent invention, at least
according to Brian Dunning and the research he conducted. The
first written records of the Trian will only show up
(29:40):
in the nineties seventies, and then when they blew up
in the fringe scene, the literature became flooded with accounts
of this new mysterious region, with tales that had been
feared for centuries. Nearly all published references. Again Dunning sites
this as well do as well as a couple of others.
Nearly all published references are from the early seventies, and
they're immediately upon the heels of Ivan Sanderson's articles from
(30:04):
nineteen seventy one two, and all of that stuff led
Downning to conclude that quote, in short, there is no
devil Cy and there never was outside the imagination of
Ivan Sanderson and the authors who wrote about his vile vortices.
But it sounds so great. Vile vortices. They're just really
(30:28):
like disgusting. Yes, yeah, they squeeze toothpaste from the middle.
They picked their noses forgot to shower for about a month.
So uh. Personally, I think the phrase vile vortices sounds
um like a super villain weapon, like something Cobra Commander
(30:50):
would use. Yeah, or a team. It's like a team
of somebody who's really really dastardly. It's just a it's
like a by gang that got a hold of a
thesaurus but didn't read the whole entry from Pokemon. So
we we do, you know, we do hate to look.
(31:15):
We all want to believe in these amazing extraordinary things.
And the long and short of it is, in the
research that we found, in primary historical sources and in
common parlance in the area, this is largely considered a myth,
and it's not treated with near as much prominence as
(31:39):
several other local or regional h extraordinary events or beliefs.
And this is in many ways kind of a Western thing. Yeah,
it's a It's a thing that people in the coast
of China and in the coast of Japan don't really
think about, give near as much credence to it feels
(32:02):
like a tale of the other Yeah, yeah, and haven't
for uh certainly haven't been worrying about it for centuries.
Most people are you know, uh, families or friends on
the coast, just hoping their loved ones make it back.
Before you know, a storm hits or disaster occurs, which
(32:23):
are real dangerous. But we're not ending the tail there yet.
We do have some explanations a peak if you will,
behind the curtain, after a word from our sponsors, welcome back,
(32:43):
ladies and gentlemen. As we promised before the break, we
have some possible explanations for some of these bizarre occurrences
in the Devil's Sea. Um. Starting off, there's pretty much
no way around it. But boats and ships and vessels
you know what float uh, they really have disappeared in
(33:05):
this area of the Pacific, you know quite a bit
in fact, um that much is true. But what's the
deal with the triangle or with with all of the triangles?
You know what? Why? What? Very the second like, what's
the deal with that? Any seinfeld bit seinfeld e rooney
too interesting? But really really really really yes, what's going on?
(33:34):
Why aren't there more devil's squares or Devil's octagons. Obviously,
you know you gotta have some hangs and angles, Devil's pentagram.
Come on, that's what I'm saying. You know you Devil's
not a square. The Devil's not a circle, alright, Devil
is clearly a triangle or a series of triangles shaped
like a goat's head. Literally, edgy, Okay, too much, that's fine, Um,
(33:57):
but yeah, like that's true. But what's what why? So
you know we there there is research that explorers some
of these environmental changes um as the cause of such
anomalies as said, triangle triangles. Um. One of these explanations
is that the vast field of methane hydrates that exists
(34:22):
at the bottom of the ocean in that area could
potentially have something to do with these disturbances that we
talked about. The originally of some people attributed to an
electromagnetic lost kind of situation. These are to me the
existence of these So yeah, this is this is very unfair.
(34:46):
Nature's brutal and unfair. This is one example Nature doesn't
care about you. No, not at all. Uh. There are
these deposits of methane hydrates gas that thing class rates,
and when they reach a certain temperature, they will quote
unquote explode that temperature just so you know, is not
(35:10):
very insane in sixty four degrees thankfully there you know
the bottom of the ocean. Yeah, they're these ice like
deposits that break off from the bottom and they can rise,
forming bubbles on the surface of the water. And again
this is just like, this is the scary part. This theoretical. Uh,
(35:30):
these gas eruptions could interrupt buoyancy. What this means is
they could easily sink a ship, leaving no trace of debris.
You would just be sailing along and then like it
would suck you down. Essentially, it almost you lose buoyancy,
so you would just you're the ship will just go.
When I pictured your Bermuda triangle, that's kind of what
(35:53):
I've always pictured is something like that. So that's pretty wild.
See in my head, it's it's a vortex essentially. So
you're saying it literally just disrupts the ability of your
vessel to float. It would be like a bunch of
air bubbles down below your ship that you're going over
(36:13):
and you just kind of and it's not exactly that
because I pictured like the water just opening up in
like a hole and then you just fall down. And
I always pictured, you know, I remember so many films
or older, older things, like episodes of the Twilight Zone,
where there would be this gray, all enveloping fall rolling
(36:37):
in and then you know, the the captain or the
pilot of a plane, for instance, they do the thing
where they tap their there yea, their compass and stuff
and the altimeter and everything's going crazy and next thing
you know, it opens up in there in a weird
unknown land. But then they crashed or they're like on
(36:57):
top of a mountain or something. I remember, really, I gotta,
I gotta harp on this. So the water is affected
in such a way that it will not support the
weight of the ship. So here's here's the problem. No
one has ever seen an actual eruption like this. You
wouldn't No one would be left to tell the tale.
(37:19):
No one knows how large the bubbles coming off the
methane deposit would be. But theory, but yeah, but the
scientists who pump your brakes, but the but the the
There are scientists who have conducted research on this, and
they found that they made a model of a single
large bubble coming up under a ship, and they trapped
(37:40):
trapped water between vertical class plates. They launched gas bubbles
from the bottom right, and they used a video camera
to record what happened to this whole they have floating
on the surface. If the thing is exactly above the bubble,
then it's safe. But if it's far enough way, if
it's where it's towards the edge, that it just sinks
(38:02):
in and so it doesn't explode, the bubble sort of
swallows it for lack of a better word, which to
me is more frightening than an explosion. No, you're helping
me out real big with my mental image of this phenomenon.
It's freaking me out. Uh this is is this uh
the best advertisement for cruise ever? I don't really. I
(38:24):
don't want to be that far out in the other man,
you know, we just did the Titanic. I mean, like,
come on, we really are scaring people away from you know,
being on the ocean right now. Well, no reason to
stop yet, because there's a different explanation, right should we
get into great white sharks instead? You know? Because yeah,
what's up with you? Save that for another day. I'm
(38:46):
just saying, like, another reason why I don't like to
swim in the ocean. Bo okay, let's keep going. Oh okay, Well,
another reason that ships could disappear more frequently in this
area would be that small isle in this triangle and
the dragons triangle UH frequently disappear in new islands frequently
(39:07):
up here due to um volcanoes and seismic activity. We
cannot forget, ladies and gentlemen, about the Ring of Fire.
The Ring of Fire is this huge twenty five thousand
mile horseshoe shaped area in the basin of the Pacific
Ocean down there at the bottom, including in the area
that we consider to be the Devil's Sea. It's uh.
(39:31):
It's home to just a ton of earthquakes and volcanic
activity down there. It's associated with almost a continuous creation
of trenches, oceanic trenches, of volcanic arcs, volcanic belts, plate movements,
and it has over four hundred and fifty volcanoes. That's
over seventy of the world's active and dormant volcanoes exist
(39:54):
in this Ring of fire down at the bottom of
the ocean. So is it possible that a volcanic eruption
on the ocean floor could reach a ship. Well, yeah,
you're just talking about the release of gases again as
the you know, the immense heat that's being generated right
below where the water is and then coming up and
(40:15):
meeting with that water, creating steam that has to get
pushed up. Again, you're talking about swallowing ships potentially. I
know that. Um, this is this kind of ridiculous. Twenty fifteen,
there was an active underwater volcano that was that came
to life off of Granada and you guys will really
(40:38):
enjoy the name. Are you ready? It was called the
kick Him Jenny volcano. Kick him Jenny. Yeah, yeah, like
that like three words. If it's New Zealand, Uh, keep
him kick him Jimmy, Jimmy or Jenny. Yeah, oh boy,
(40:58):
everybody and everybody in New Zealand. We apologize we've been
practicing this accident. I don't think we have any New
Zealand listeners left at this point. No, right in and
let us know, actually, let us know about Keyweek conspiracies too.
We'd love to hear those. Um. So the problem with
this is I'm bringing this up because this is a
(41:20):
good um, this is a good specific example of the
problems here because not only is a underwater volcano powerful enough,
as as Matt said, to affect the surface, but it
could even shoot hot rocks into the air. Uh, these
(41:41):
can be massive. In the case of kick Him Jenny Um,
scientists set up an exclusion zone for ships around the volcano.
Recreational ships had to stay three miles away from it,
and I think commercial ships had to stay a mile
or two away just in case. So it is completely
possible that some of these ships, maybe even the Maru
(42:05):
that we mentioned earlier number five, it is possible that
these ships were instead the victims of volcanoes. Wow. That's
terrifying and for me, much more terrifying than a mysterious
devil's area. Yeah, what about mysterious gas bubbles? That's that's
that's the one that gives me pause. Yeah, I feel
(42:26):
like a fiery death at c is Um more understandable
than just all this sudden saying, oh we're on the water,
now we're in it. Why can't I breathe? Yeah, Yeah,
that's the thing that I mean, like a fiery death
and see, it seems like it would leave behind more
flotsam and jetsam and whatnot, and like the whole you know,
kicker of these of these places usually tends to be
(42:50):
gone without a trace, right, Like that's sort of like
the the calling card. I guess, yeah, and then if
you do find them, it's you know, fifty two hundreds
of years it or at the bottom of the sea.
And we'd like to know what We would like to
know what your experiences are, your maritime experiences, and most importantly,
(43:11):
what your take is on these ideas of uh the
Bermuda triangle, the Dragons triangle. Also, you know, I want
to ask people, well, which idea about this vile vortices
thing in general, because we would love to hear about
a source that comes from before the nineteen fifties. Let's say,
(43:34):
you know, I do you live near one, right? Could
you go check it out? Or have you had any
experiences there? That's how we find out if we have
any friends in the Eastern Islands. If so, we may
be coming to uh your house to crash. Will be
there in two weeks? And is it? Will it take
(43:55):
us two weeks? Well, it's just there's a lot of
planning that goes into that. That's probably true. Ye, uh
so unfortunately, Yeah, a lot of the stuff about this
seems to have sprung up after the fact with a
little supporting evidence in the preceding literature. However, we do
know that there is absolutely nothing fictitious about losing ships
(44:17):
at sea. According to a maritime assure named Alian's, losses
at sea continue in the modern day. Yeah, I mean
this is still clearly happening. We've got UM stats from
two thousand seven to indicating that the area comprising South China, Indonesia,
and the Philippines UM counted two hundred and forty nine
(44:39):
lost ships, while the area north of that think Japan,
the Korean Peninsula in the like counted a hundred and
thirty three lost vessels. And these numbers are actually on
the decline thankfully. Yeah. The maritime industry on the whole
has seen the total number of losses decrease UM during
(45:06):
five and then the number of incidents or casualties also
is on a year over year UM downturn. And according
to a another report from Alian's, one of the big
questions would be how many ships disappeared without a trace
right overall UM from two thousand two thousand and thirteen,
(45:31):
there were only seven that were considered what they call
missing slash overdue. So you can still be missing for
two years and be overdue. Wow, missing for two years.
Let's see, it's not a fate I want to experience.
And so concludes our show. You know what we haven't
done in a little while? Is it at Gona? Our
(45:58):
first shoutout gos to Nick says high gang, love your show.
In the Effervescent episode three hundred, you mentioned blood donations.
I think it was a nine nine Pie podcast or
maybe radio lab where I first heard that donated blood
is a big business and that hospitals seek out more
blood than they need to sell it to other hospitals.
(46:20):
It might even have been stuff to blow your mind to,
come to think of it. Well, you need to get
your podcast straight, Nick, come on. In the process, in
the process, lots of plasma gets thrown away. Apparently, here
are a couple of links that go that take us
down this rabbit hole. So we sent us some great
stuff from w PTV. And then there's a nice little
(46:40):
reddit today. I learned section here. So we're gonna dive
into this, Nick and uh, we'll report back with what
we find. Literal blood money about plasma money same ring
to it doesn't it's a wave of the future though, right,
Plasma money, that's where all the money is. Let's get
in early. Our next shout out comes from Nicole. Hi, Guys,
(47:04):
what happened to the video podcast in the iTunes store?
I haven't received any new updates in quite some time?
Are the podcast audio only now? Thanks Nicole? Uh. We
mentioned the top of the show, we had some changes
in the works in terms of some investment in our
company and um, the podcast business. I guess he could say,
spinning off from the how stuff works in general. Uh.
(47:26):
With that has come kind of an emphasis on the podcasts,
and that means a less video and you know, Matt
and beyond the iTunes store, Apple Podcast Video Store, we
have put a pause on our video production for the
stuff they don't want you to know video series, specifically
(47:47):
on our YouTube channel, UM and anywhere else that you've
been watching our show, maybe on on Amazon, and we're
just putting a pause on that. Like Noel said, to
focus on this show. Uh, this thing that people who
make more money than us and make decisions above us
have faith in. So we're gonna keep going with it.
But there may be like opportunities online to supplement some
(48:08):
of the stuff we do here with some video stuff
for SOUF. We'll see but you know, a lot of
exciting new stuff coming down the pike, but we're not
fully aware of all of it yet. And thanks so
much for writing in Nicole. We have one more shout
out for today, but it's a it's a bit of
a doozy, so get comfortable in your seat or scoot
(48:28):
to the edge of it, you know, wherever you prefer
to encounter doozy messages. Uh hey, guys, says Laura B.
I just listened to your podcast about America's Zone of Death,
and I'm actually a former student Professor coult I attached
the photo of his class syllabus to prove it. I
really appreciate you guys giving him credit for this topic
because it's been showing up a lot on social media
(48:49):
without him being credited at all. That's a real that's
a real pill, I, Laura, I find that personally offensive. Um,
that was me, Ben, that wasn't Laura. Laurie continues, You
guys should give professor call to Google because he has
also written on a wide variety of other super interesting,
little discussed topics and I'm sure he'd be more than
(49:09):
happy to talk with you guys. Keep up the good work, Laura,
thank you so much for writing in Laura. And here's
the bonus. Here's the doozy part. Professor Kay did right
back to us. He wrote back to us yesterday, I think,
and his his email was very, very kind, to the
(49:33):
point where I was thinking, Man, I wish you were
my professor. He uh, we'll just read some some brief
highlights here. Uh what they really liked wash, He said,
a few points. I heard and enjoyed your podcast about
my Yellowstone theory. I wanted to reach out offer my
enthusiastic participation with whatever else you want to do with
(49:53):
the subject. And also on the pardon power. As you mentioned.
A few points that came to mind as I listened.
One you called me doctor cult, but like so many
law professors, I'm not a PhD. Also, I pronounced cult
like halt or salt, not kilt. Uh. No worries, though
I've been called far worse. I think this guy's it creates.
It's a humor too. In case you get me feedback
(50:15):
on the Yellowstone theory, A very common responses that the
state of Idaho would just prosecute you and That's true
of most national parks. If the Feds couldn't prosecute you,
the state would be able to step in. But in
a few of them, like Yellowstone, the FEDS have exclusive jurisdictions,
so that's no go. Three, it's worth mentioning that if
you tried to use the loophole, you would still be
subject to get ensued civil liability and prosecuted for misdemeanors
(50:39):
for which you have no right to a jury trial.
You also would not be able to use the loophole
if you did any part of the crime, like forming
your intent or conspiring outside the zone. Oh man, you
know what that means. We're already guilty. Our our moonshine
operation already went elbows up. Uh. Perhaps most importantly, if
you're thinking employing something, there's probably someone else there with
(51:01):
the same idea, and he's bigger than you. All of
this eliminates much of the loophole's usefulness to would be criminals.
I still think the loophole is worth fixing, though, even
with all the reasons why it's limited and why it
might not work, there really is no good reason not
to fix it and just color inside the lines on
pardons Number One, you mentioned pardons declaring you guilty. I
(51:24):
wrote a short piece and attempt to do disabuse people
of that notion. And so he has a piece in
the Wall Street Journal that he refers to pardons aren't
only for the guilty. And two he said self pardoning
was the subject of my first legal article in the
chapter of my book in two thousand twelve. If you're
ever interested in doing anything on pardons, I'd love to help.
(51:46):
And he also recommends uh chapter from a book called
Constitutional Cliffhangers, a legal guy for presidents and their enemies. Uh,
And it's on the loophole in the twenty second Amendment
that could allow a two term president to stay in power. Oh,
I want to do both of those. Do you want
to both be uh president state of power? Yeah, the
(52:07):
that specifically as well as self partnering and partnering in general.
I just want to learn more about that, and I
think people have to would want to as well. Yeah,
let us know if you'd like to learn more about
legal loopholes. And we are going to be following up
with our new favorite law professor. And for now this
concludes our Gosh but not our show. If fear not
(52:33):
ladies and gentlemen. We will return next week with something
uh strange, either very new or very ancient and eldredge
but nonetheless fascinating. In the meantime, if you want to
get in touch with us, you can do the social
media thing. We are conspiracy stuff on Facebook and Twitter.
If you want to do the Instagram thing, we are
conspiracy stuff show and Matt, I think there's a there's
(52:55):
a there's another way. We always talk about if people
don't want to do any of that stuff, what is
that It's three candles in a triangle. You have to
be in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and there's
one this area between Taiwan some volcanic islands anyway on
a raft made of cadavers. Yep, that's new raft, that's
(53:16):
new foreen. But that's definitely in the in the rules.
So if you don't want to do any of that
stuff in the cadaver boat just really doesn't you know,
strike your fancy, you can just write us an email.
We are conspiracy at house stuff works dot com.
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