February 7, 2014 • 42 mins
What was COINTELPRO? What made it controversial? Do government agencies continue to infiltrate activist organizations in the modern day? Tune in to learn more.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From UFOs two ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Greetings everyone,
welcome back. My name is Max and I am Ben
and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today,
(00:23):
we're looking at something that's pretty dark. It's a part
of the American past, and it encompasses a lot of
different groups, um, but one in particular. Right we are
talking about the famous co in tell pro Ladies and gentlemen.
This is one of those things that was once called
(00:46):
a conspiracy theory and later emerged, surprise, surprise, to be
a factual conspiracy spanning decades. And what we'd like to
do today is talk a little bit up how this came,
about what it was, how it affected both the United
States and the world, and uh, maybe we'll end on
(01:09):
a question about what happened to it? Right, Yeah, where
did it go? Oh? Man? What what dark humor? We
already have at the beginning gallows or here? Um? All right,
so co intel pro uh counter intelligence on the part
of the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation here in
(01:31):
good old us of a UM, the thing is that
this was an act of political repression, right, yes, and
it was a way to keep tabs on political groups
that were completely legal inside the US that the FBI,
headed by Jedger Hoover, believed could be a threat to
(01:52):
the country. Now what kind of threat existential? Physical? Right,
kind of argicles, ideological? Yeah, it varies, but the one
that we're gonna be focusing on today or the threats
are the physical threats that? Okay, yeah, and I think
that's fair. So a little bit of background cointelpro you're
(02:14):
probably wondering, is this another overly awkward government acronym? Uh?
Kind of but not really because it's it stands for
counterintelligence programs, So thank goodness, it's not like changing one
intelligent new I can't do that. But but the point
being here that it was an active UH surveillance and
(02:37):
repression program UH seen as vital for the national security
of the United States. And of course, national security is
everybody's favorite boogeyman, depending on which political generation you live in. Well,
so it's a boogeyman, and it's also the thing you
can just mention if you want to convince someone that
(02:57):
it's something is important. Yeah, I wish I could start
using national security just on my own personal thing for
some extra swag, but unfortunately I'm not a nation yet.
One day many yeah, maybe one day. But uh so,
the FBI, as we know, has engaged in similar acts
(03:18):
way way back in its time of inception, which is,
you know, uh, the early nineteen hundreds. Another example that
isn't quite cointelpro but it's a very similar operation would
be the FBI surveillance of suspected communists during the two
Red Scares of US history. That's right, there were two.
(03:38):
And yeah, yeah, I'm just I feel like maybe we
need to go ahead and do a whole another episode
on that as well. I think that deserves its own research. Um,
if you'd like to hear more about the Red Scare
one and then it's Red Scare Redo, let us know
and we will make a whole audio episode on that.
And uh I also did a guest host spot with
(04:01):
stuff you missed in history class on the Red Scare,
so you can tune in to hear some of that.
It's a deep cut, you guys. It's an oldie, but
a goodie. So we know that there were these different
methods for combating people who would challenge the status quo
of the nation. These could be people like communists or
anarchistra other political dissidents. These could also just be labor
(04:25):
movements and unions. Um So during the Truman and Roosevelt
years we start to see things that are more direct
predecessors of cointelpro around the thirties. But what we're talking about.
Cointelpro in its most well known form, officially began in
ninety six in August, and it was to stop the
(04:47):
communist communists. Man, you don't like capitalism, that everything that
we do is based on this one idea of the
set of ideas. So, uh, the kind of stuff they
would do, uh seems to range from mean spirited middle
school or pranks like anonymous phone calls you know quit, well,
(05:10):
you you know quit? You read commie yeah, two unnecessary
audits or unnecessarily thorough audits, government harassment and attempts to
infiltrate these groups and of course turn them against one another.
And something I never really thought about, ben is that
just the act of infiltrating a group one time and
(05:33):
then making it known that that group has been infiltrated
can create such dissension inside a group even if you
didn't really do use that infiltration for any means other
than to expose that it's been infiltrated. It just that
idea creates such suspicion amongst group members. Uh. It creates
(05:55):
uh yeah, just that idea of oh wait, now, if
that guy was an infiltrator or an FBI agent, then
oh my god, who is this person I've been speaking with? Right?
And it removes credibility for outside groups or outside observers
who might be future supporters of a group. Uh. So, well,
let's brackett the idea of communists as a threat to
(06:17):
the U S. I agree, It's a different show. Um,
we won't cover today. Let's look at the one of
the huge problems here, which is that shortly after um,
the inception of the modern co intel pro guy named Hoover,
who some of our listeners may have heard of, uh, decided,
you know who is also a threat to America as
(06:40):
it stands today, Uh, black leaders, black people in general, because,
as we can tell, Hoover at this time is a
fan of the racist ideology prevalent in the United States,
at least it seems to be from the memos that
have been Uh, I guess he classified in the kay
you're being very fair, Matt, I'm trying to be fair.
(07:02):
You are being very fair, and I'm sorry. Um, clearly
I am pro civil rights. No, I'm kidding, O kidding,
I I am joking. I am joking. But yeah, I
think you're being fair with the treatment of Hoover because
all we know is um the stuff left over in
the documents that, as far as we know, we're authored
(07:24):
by him. Right. Yeah, he was obviously afraid because again
he was head of the FBI at this time, and
he was obviously afraid of in what he called an
uprising um basically an overthrow of the status quo of
the time. Right, he pictured a revolution, yes, and after
(07:45):
in nineteen sixty three he started saying, Martin Luther King Jr.
Is the primary focus or the primary um, the potential
leader of a violent revolution or a violent revolution, which
is which is strange when you think about it, because
one of the huge differentiating factors between Martin Luther King
(08:10):
and other similar leaders like Malcolm X was that Martin
Luther King Jr. Uh clearly advocated UH non violent revolution,
you know, similar to Gandhi, similar to other organizations seeking
equality around the world. And in the FBI and memos,
it actually states that Martin Luther King Jr. Would be
(08:33):
the supreme leader of this UH of the black nationalist
movement if not for what they called his liberal leanings,
his non violence right. They specifically called it his white
liberals something right. I think we have a quote, and
while we're checking that out, let's just go ahead and say,
(08:56):
off the top, a little bit of a disclaimer, UH,
Cohen Hell pros illegal activities during this time we're conducted
in secret, were conducted without government oversight outside of the FBI,
And we're incredibly racist with this sort of veneer of
um concern for social social upstanding. But it's just the
(09:22):
same way that you would hear people use other euphemisms
in sadly enough, the modern day to disguise UH, huge
racist tendencies. So we are going to be talking about
some very ugly things in US history, to say the least.
So so I'm just gonna give you this is a
partial quote from the the memo about the the counterintelligence program,
(09:47):
and this is referring to black nationalists hate groups. This
is what they called them, Black nationalists hate groups. And
this is part of the goals in one of these memos,
and I'm just gonna read this to you, um, please
forgive me, like thank you for that caveat Ben. But
here we go. This is goal number two, to prevent
(10:08):
the rise of a messiah who could unify and electrify
the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been
such a messiah. Cole and he is the martyr of
the movement today. Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, and Elijah
Mohammed all aspire to this position. King could be a
very real contender for this position should he abandon his
(10:28):
supposed obedience to white liberal doctrine. And then in uh,
and then it just says non violence, uh in quotation marks.
But yeah, it's it's uh. It's strange when we think
about this, because this sounds like it is something that
could be written by a hate group like a white
power group. Today. However, um, this the stuff that comes
(10:53):
out of the FBI at this time is sadly in
line with a lot of other official government documentation and position.
So when they say that there are these radical black
hate groups or whatever, what, what they're focusing on are
things like the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee and Stokely
(11:17):
Carmichael the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Yeah, which they sund
like some bruisers, right, but they actually started program in
nineteen seventies, nineteen sixty seven, UH, and the FBI called
it co Intel pro Dash Black Hate. So it focused
on the Christian Leadership Conference, the Non Violent Coordinating Committee,
(11:38):
Martin Luther King himself, and the offices. UH. Twenty three
different FBI offices around the States were instructed to disrupt, misdirect, discredit,
or otherwise neutralize the activities of black nationalists hate type
organizations UM and the biggest to the right. Yeah too,
(11:59):
because there was a growing movement at the time and
they were just saying, you know, chop the head off,
you know. Not well they didn't. They didn't literally put
down in words anything about causing violence. Again these against
any of these leaders. They only were talking about undermining
their leadership, right, more of a nippet in the bud, Yes,
nippet in the bud, the kind of thing. And at
(12:20):
the same time this is interesting. At the same time,
they were working too to partner with other government agencies
in the case of wide scale civil unrest. I mean
riots that eat up a city and stuff. But one
of the one of the subtext of the secret co
(12:42):
Intel pro operations that I find so fascinating is that
a lot of this kicked into gear when Martin Luther
King was began speaking about uh, social inequality and financial inequality.
So the large speech that made him that made Dr
(13:03):
King number one on Hoover's Okay, we're a family friendly show,
so i'll call it a hit list, but that's alright,
short list of people that he considered a threat um.
One of the big speech that set this off was
(13:23):
came from his nineteen three March on Washington for Jobs
and Freedom, and that sounds so dangerous, doesn't it. Well,
I mean, I guess it could be to the status
quo at the time. But the the other thing was
the Poor People's Campaign, which was the idea to occupy Washington,
(13:46):
d C. And an idea that might sound familiar to
some of our listeners who might have been involved in
the occupy movement. So all of this goes on, and
there are other players that we're going to meet too,
of course, the Nation of Islam, the Black Panther Party
and the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party,
UM are definitely much more UM, let's see, much more
(14:12):
likely to consider violence as a mean to an end.
And depending on the members or the sections of what
you go to for some of these groups, UM, you know,
the Nation of Islam does have clearly racist elements. And
you know, I don't feel comfortable making a blanket statement
about the Black Panther Party because I do believe that
(14:35):
there is a difference between saying, you know, you can
be a black nationalist and not be a racist person. UM.
I think that is I I think we might get
some hate mail for that, but I can defend that
statement and to be fair. At the same time, co
intel Pro has putting some resources into monitoring white hate groups,
specifically the Ku Klux Klan just a little bit. What
(14:57):
was it about? Yeah, yeah, UM, the vast majority of
funding was going towards monitoring uh black what they call
black hate groups. And as we find later when the
Church Committee from the U. S. Senate investigated co intel Pro, UH,
they found that Cointelpro in some ways began because the
(15:19):
FBI was UM felt the FBI felt stymied and UH
they felt like they were too constrained by the Supreme
Court going, hey, you can't go out and beat the
crap out of people because they don't, you know, want
they don't agree with the current setup of the government. Uh.
(15:40):
But interesting story. The public would have never known about
co intel pro or it would have stayed a conspiracy
theory where it not for one particular moment in history,
one particular crime. Yes it was. There was a crime,
and we're gonna learn about that right after we get
back from a quick word from our sponsor. Thank you
(16:03):
for listening. And you know, like every every show, we
have ads and we just hope you will take into consideration. Uh,
you know, especially this new sponsor because we're really proud
of it. Are you tired of being unheard? Do you
feel that no one is listening to your voice? Are
(16:23):
you tired of forgetting all those great ideas you've had
and then just sitting around and trying to think of
them again in a haze of probably marijuana. When's the
last time you got angry about your phone bill? Friends,
fret no more. The answer to these and more questions
can all be found in our newest sponsor, Co and
(16:44):
Tell Phone. Co and Tell Phone, It's the only phone
that's always listening, even if it's all even if the
batteries aren't in. Never fear your next statements. Any thing
from a half hearted murmur of assent to a rambling
rants about the president will be collected instantly at our
(17:07):
top secret dative facilities. Information will be sent to the
n s A, the FBI, to c i A, and
all other government agencies in the alphabet. And the best
part is there's no charge for either the data plan
or the phone itself. Be aware of the tampering with, hacking, altering, misusing, purposely,
misplacing or otherwise damaging your CO and Tell phone maybe
(17:28):
punishable by up to fifteen years in prison. So come
on down to your nearest corner anywhere really and just
wave your hands around and say I want CO and
Telephone and we'll be there. Co and Tell Phone. We're
always listening. Brought to you by and we're back. So
(17:54):
uh now it's time to talk about how John and
Jane Q Public ever learned of CO and t L
pros weird racist campaign. To begin with, well, it's a
funny story, actually really interesting. Small group of activists calling
themselves the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI. They decided
(18:15):
they're in Philadelphia and there is a small FBI office
that is lightly guarded, and they believe that there is
information being held at the FBI um of illegal activities, essentially,
And these are just kind of regular citizens, like you said, Ben,
These aren't career criminals or no, not not criminals at all, terrorists.
(18:39):
These are much more likely to be students, academics and
such and uh, there's one PhD in there. And well,
they decided on the night of the Fight of the
Century in quotes the nine bout between Muhammad Ali and
Joe Frasier, they thought, well, hey, everybody's gonna be listening
on their radios or preoccupied on their television jans, this
(19:01):
is a great night to go and do some nefarious stuff,
nefarious to an extent. So they broke into the small office.
One guy was a lock pick, by the way, um,
and they took just a ton of files and they
proceeded to disseminate those files to various publishers and journalists.
(19:22):
And uh, that's how we found out about it, just
because a small group of people decided, you know what,
We're going to go in there and see what the
heck they're up to. And let's be clear, we are
not we're we're not able to say that this is
something people should ever do themselves, because it was committing
a crime. Still, they were absolutely committing. To correct, we
(19:42):
would not have uncovered the great deal of other crimes
perpetrated by the government had these people not committed a
crime themselves. In the aftermath of this, Uh, the public
goes bananas. Yeah, and this once upon a time, conspiracy
theories spread around by members of these various groups, including
(20:04):
anti war advocates. Uh, let's not forget that the FBI
also was focusing on people who were against the war
in Vietnam, for example. And so this comes to light
and what what is that from this, we see congressional investigations,
(20:25):
and these investigations conclude that the tactics employed by the
FBI and the programs that they were running are no
ifs ands or butts illegal so illegal just so against
the law. But then also the church committees report on
(20:46):
this emerged with some interesting instances of other, um, other
breaches of privacy, often the request of presidents. So let's
just walk through the presidents real quick. I'm ready, okay, um,
if you had if one of your favorite presidents is
from or earlier, just to get ready to know they're
(21:07):
not perfect. Um. Alright, So Roosevelt, President Roosevelt won the
FBI to UH keep track of citizens who are sending
telegrams to the White House against his national defense policy. UM.
Truman got insider information on Roosevelt's UH staffing, UM his
(21:29):
staff aids and how he would arrange meetings with them.
Eisenhower got reports on any UH contacts like friends of
foreign officials who they hung out with when they hung
out Washington, which you know a lot of these you
can understand. If the abilities there, someone's going to use it.
(21:49):
UM the UH. Kennedy wire tapped a bunch of people, UM,
including some law firms UM and UH the US and
his brother Robert F. Kennedy also UH listened into an
FBI wire tap on Dr King. I know President Johnson
(22:12):
Lyndon Johnson, who did all kinds of ridiculous stuff as well,
also had the FBI check up on his opponent in
the election. UH. And of course President Nixon had all
sorts of wire tapping adventures that we could probably cover
in a different podcast, and he himself found himself You know,
(22:32):
attached to a recording on the phone several times. Yep, uh,
I guess it. I don't know. Is it a lesson?
Maybe tappers become the tapped. If you live by the tap,
you should die by the tap. I don't know. That
doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's just a bad quotation. But
with this, what what this means is that the program
(22:56):
was exposed. And these kind of things only thrive in
darkness an obscurity. Yeah. The only the only way you're
ever going to find out about it if someone decides
to use go by their conscience and leak it out.
I mean really, it's It's kind of brings us back
to whistleblowers again and the importance of that kind of thing,
and also the danger to these organizations like the FBI
(23:19):
of whistleblowers and the n s A and why they're
so terrified of people like Edward Snowden and I. You know,
I have to ask you before let's take a sidebar,
before we finish the co intel part or get to
what I think is the most exciting part of this podcast. Um,
I have to ask you do you think that people
(23:40):
who uh, people who as you said, follow their conscious
working for the government or any government and disclose these secrets.
Do you think that they should be immune to the
laws for violating that agreement? It's very strange, it should be.
It's it's such a tough area because you've you've got
to be beholden to law. Law has to stand no
(24:03):
matter what. If we live in a just society. Um.
But if but if a group, a group that you're
working for is breaking the law and you're you're aware
of it, but nobody else is aware of it, and
you come out, I think I think there should be
some kind of immunity there. Okay, here's my thing. If
you are whistle blowing for a private organization that is
(24:26):
breaking the law, let's say, um let's let's say that
some you find out that some fast food company is
uh skirting hygiene laws putting illegal additives in. You blow
the whistle. You're probably gonna get fired. Why would you
want to keep working there? And there are protections for
you and in government organizations or those affiliated with government
(24:49):
organizations when you sign the oaths of secrecy or the
n d A s and all that other stuff, which
means non disclosure agreement, then I believe that people should
if you're if you're following your conscience, you should be
fully prepared for the ramifications or consequences of the actions
that you agree to, Like it's a process that you
(25:10):
agree to originally. And we could have some maybe some
of our listeners will write in and say, well, there
they you don't know what you're agreeing to. It's a
pig in a poke because you don't know what you're
keeping secret in tift you sign it. But the idea
of UM, the the idea of blanket immunity for anyone
(25:31):
who follows their conscious that the problem with that is
that people's conscious or moral decisions don't always follow the
same compass. Sure, sure they all vary. And and also
if that was true, then yeah, there would be so
many whistleblowers because come on, man, capitalism is based on
the exploitation of of something, right I mean, And so
(25:55):
if you're if everyone was following their conscience, yeah, nothing
would ever get done. There would be no industry. Well,
you know, it's very interesting because you and I have
You and I have had this conversation often and outside
of work or when we're off the air, and one
of the questions that we ask each other is are
(26:15):
we approaching a future wherein secrets will be impossible? And
I think that's a that's a powerful question, but it's
also a question for another day. And but it kind
of brings us to the last part of this episode,
which is, as we approached this future where secrets don't
exist anymore, and we're getting closer and closer to that edge,
(26:39):
what the heck happened to this co Intel program? Does
it still exist and it or did it just morph?
Did it change a little bit into something else? What
do you think? Ben? Personally? I think that it never
really stopped. There's absolutely no reason nor compelling consequence large
(27:01):
enough to prevent people from continuing to use this ability.
In fact, as the leaks by both Julian Osandra and
Edwards Snowden show, UH, the technology has increased and the
intent has also become more focused, more clarified. Uh. The
(27:24):
idea of national security UM, whether or not you are
I or anyone thinks it's a valid or invalid thing. Uh,
the point is that the idea has enough support there
that it gets us to uh some some frightening edges.
So I think that not only do things like cointelpro
(27:46):
continue and there is proof that you know, these things
do continue, maybe not in a huge unified way, but
it's kind of monitoring infiltration clearly continues. Um. The scary
thing is for me it six siding and frightening is uh,
how how far along has technology pushed these original aims?
(28:08):
You know, the idea that the days of having to
physically go to a telephone line, physically put a wire
in to listen to someone. Uh, those days are long gone. Yeah,
that is That is something that we didn't even really
talk about too much. Is the methods used for these
co intels under the information Um, and I don't mean
(28:30):
to swing way back, but just as some context for
what we're talking about here, you would you if you
wanted to say, listen into somebody's conversations they were having
in a hotel room, let's say in a motel somewhere,
the you would have to get the room next to
adjacent to the room of the person you're trying to monitor,
put a microphone up against the wall, or somehow plant
(28:52):
a microphone in that room before they rent the room out,
or I mean there's it was very difficult, or you'd
have to catch them on a phone conversation in order
to get actual evidence. Yeah, there's uh there's a guy
named Brian Glick who wrote a book called War at Home,
and in War at Home, Glick talks about for umbrella
(29:14):
methods that the FBI would use during co and telpro
and one of these courses infiltration. So you know, you're
I know, I always use the Vegan co op as
an example, So you're you're the Vegan coop, right, and
guys are uh so angry that, um, it's difficult to
grow heirloom produce right because of all the pesticides used
(29:38):
in large agricultural concerns and income. Some guy, you know,
Falcon and he came from Portland's or something, and he's
super cool. You know, he's cool. It turns out he's
been working for the FBI the entire time, not Falcon Alkin.
And then there's uh so that's one infiltration, another one
(29:59):
psychological war fair. I would also count this as propaganda,
So this would be misinformation like sending out getting the
letter head of whatever group you're upset with, and then
sending out baked publications like I always I always enjoy
reading a news story, um where the news is coming
from an anonymous source or an official who asked not
(30:22):
to be named of the company or the department, because
that that kind of that always makes me think that
someone got the soft go ahead, the soft green light. Uh.
So the next one would be legal harassment. This is
what we're talking about when we said, UM, people getting
audited every year on the dot um without necessarily being
(30:44):
shady or false, arrest um, wrong, wrongful imprisonment um. And
then another one, of course, one of the more dangerous
would be illegal force uh, which which is kind of
a vague term, but that means stuff like partnering with
local law enforcement to do break in a raid on
(31:05):
a house. No, no warrant searches is one of the
big ones. Nowidation really that's yeah, it all all, all,
all three of the everything except for UM. I think
the propaganda stuff goes back to intimidation and maybe propaganda
as well. Psychological warfare also includes directly addressing people. It's
(31:28):
a dirty, murky realm. It is infiltration, it is and
you know, we have to stop back. We have to
step back for a second here, UM, and I have
to ask you the question, and then we also have
to make a statement after this. So here's the question. That.
Do you think Coentel Pro or something like it continues. Well, yeah,
(31:50):
I think obviously, I think anyone who's paying attention to
the news lately, just the technology. The technology makes it
so easy. Now, why wouldn't you, like you said earlier,
you know, if if you have access to a technology
that makes with the presidents that you have the ability
to get I'm going to use this word. I know
(32:11):
this is kind of a bad word, but gather information.
It's so easy to do it now that why wouldn't
you So? Yeah, it's if we look at these capabilities
is sort of the Lord of the Rings analogy, a
ring of power. It's very, very difficult to throw that
kind of ability away, and for some people it's impossible.
But uh, that's that's a pretty crappy comparison, of course. Um,
(32:35):
one thing I would say, or maybe it's not too
much of a bad comparison, because you can be invisible,
can as you said, gather information. I like it. I'm
on board. I'm back on board with it. But the
biggest thing that is whether or not it's whether or
not the infiltration techniques are being used and the you know, um,
I'm trying to think of groups that are being uh,
(32:59):
you know, their doors are being pushed in by a
local police or something. There are groups who have made
we've made claims about stuff like this. Uh. We have
to be very careful with this too, because it's no
secret that often, often both both sides of these equations
(33:20):
can tell wildly different stories. You know. There are examples
of people who said that the um f d A
came and confiscated all of the raw milk that a
small farm was creating. Um, and it comes out that
there was an outbreak of disease and it wasn't just
(33:40):
this farm, it was everything in a certain risk area
or something like that. I'm not saying that there's a
right wrong, but I am saying there are two ways
about it. And then I feel that it would be
remiss for us to make this this statement. Um, don't
do it. Let me get my soapbox. Oh yeah, if
we did not make this statement, we would be remiss.
(34:01):
Thank you mann. Good save um, so, let me get
my audio soapbox. Here. Probably hear me stepping up on it,
and here we go. We are not saying that governments
are inherently evil. We are not telling anybody that, you know,
big brother is going to come and just steal things
(34:22):
to make your life inconvenient, like just your left shoes
or something. But what we are saying is that it
is clearly proven that cointelpro as with the co Intel
pro pro proper, actually did occur and probably would have
continued had it not been for someone committing a crime.
This is a very heavy moral question, you know, um,
(34:45):
and it's one that comes back up again in the
modern day with Edward Snowdon. I read an interesting conspiracy
theory recently met that said, um, Edward Snowdon as a
Russian operative, um and that he was deep cover, which
doesn't make too much sense given his age. But um,
(35:07):
I've been reading a lot of Edward Snowden conspiracy theories
and I heard, uh one that said that he was
working for Russia and that the secrets he's quote unquote leaked,
we're not really true at all, and it's Russian propaganda. Um. Well,
our our government certainly hasn't done a great job of
dispelling They have not. They have not. And then another
(35:31):
one I read was that um was that he had
Edward Snowden had a green light from Washington and from
Langley to go public with this, whoa to try and
start descent amongst them? I don't know, the World War
three will come along and then there wasn't any evidence
of this at least that I could find. But you know,
(35:53):
right in and and uh, let us know what you think. Well,
it's see, it's so crazy, man, because in the world's
again these murky world of just spying and and secret information.
Who the heck? Who do you trust? Ben? Who do
I trust? Who can you trust? Um? No trust no one. Yeah,
(36:14):
I'm starting to wonder about you and Noel. Honestly, Well, look,
I'll tell you about an old later. We'll have a
little sidebar. He's always listening. He's always got these headphones on.
I swear you can hear every word that I say. Alright,
so uh before here, Well, thee last thing, one last thing.
If you're if you're interested in the Citizens Commission to
(36:35):
Investigate the FBI and that whole story, please check out
The Burglary Colon The Discovery of Jed gro Hoover's Secret FBI.
It's a book written by Betty Metzker and it's fascinating.
I put a little clip of it in our episode
about coin tel pro Um when I think they were
on democracy Now. It's a fascinating book. It's really good read. Um,
(36:57):
check it out if you're interested. Oh and less, do
you think that we are being a direct source of misinformation?
And maybe you're saying no, man, Co and tell Pro
that's crazy talk. You can go to the FBI dot
gov website directly check out the thing they have called
the vault where they admit what the Congressional investigation found
(37:20):
in CO and tel Pro. That was a mental exercise
to phrase that that carefully, wasn't it. That is interesting
that they're like, yes, we will admit to what this
one congressional committee said was true. And you know that's
probably that's probably the way you have to do it.
And as always before we in the podcast, we always
want to go straight to the learn more with with you, Matt.
(37:44):
You always have a source for us to learn more from,
and thank you for doing that, by the way, And
then we like to read listener mail. All right, we've
got got a couple today. So um, First, we we've
been getting some ghost stories. Remember we get the ghosts
(38:04):
really good one. Yes. Uh so first I was thinking
we could go to a government related thing and then
we'll do one ghost story, all right. So uh, Tiffany
w writes to us, um, I believe Tiffany is just
from the Internet. She doesn't say where she's from. So
Tiffany says, Hi, guys, I'm writing to request to show
about nine eleven and Ben Lauden. Uh heh, Tiffany says,
(38:26):
A cousin of mine recently posted to Facebook this. I
feel bad for Ben lauding our government through nine eleven
on him. He denied it, But if you did that
to America, wouldn't you brag about it? Don't believe me?
Watch loose Change nine eleven, which is loose change is
a thing that you and I hear about a lot.
It's one of the first things I ever saw in
the Conspiracy realm uh So, Tiffany continues, it was such
(38:47):
an inflammatory post. He got quite defensive when the folks
on his friends list tried to debate this with him.
I would like to know more about this topic. I
know it's controversial and it's a touchy subject, but it
might be a good idea to educate folks about this
topic and the theory surrounding it. I'm in a man
A few words, all right, Um, yeah, we'll take a
look at especially if other listeners are interested in hearing it,
(39:10):
or there's something you want us to talk about related
to ben La and nine eleven. Let us know our
last email, the one that is related to ghosts. I'm
looking at it and I'm realizing it's probably a little
too long to read on on this show right now.
Maybe we can great, Yeah, it was great. Uh. It
comes from a friend of ours named Nick. Uh and
(39:30):
Nick wrote into tell us about a paranormal experience he
add on set on Saturday in December nineteen, two thousand
and nine, which remains the worst day of his life. Uh. Nick,
we hope you're listening. We want you to know that
we were big fans of this story, and you know,
maybe we should save this for when we do another
(39:51):
entirely listener mail episode. That'd be great. We just read
the entire story. Yeah, we can make a make a
day of it. Yeah, let's do it. Let's put that
the vault, all right, So everybody is gonna have to
hold on for Nick's ghost story. But we've been receiving
some other great ghost stories and uh, we would like
to read some of them on the air in the future.
(40:12):
So if you have a story for us, please write
to us and let us know. You can find us
on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can
find us on Oh what wait, big news. We have
our very own website now it's w w W dot stuff.
They don't want you to know dot com. Yeah, it's
(40:32):
all true. We have a website. It's crazy. If you
guys want to support what we're doing here, the best
way to do that is to go to our website.
You can watch all of our videos there. You can
listen to all of these podcast episodes. Um easily clickable.
We're gonna have blogs coming. Uh. And we also want
to know if we should start a forum. We've been
(40:53):
looking into it. We don't want to start it unless
you are into it and something that you would be
interested in doing. Uh. Being able to talk with the
other listeners in this community directly. Uh inside, Yes, and
in the future are that forum can really serve as
our future episode kind of the machine that creates our
(41:14):
future episodes where we have people discussing certain topics and
then I think it's gonna be huge if you guys
are interested. Every every really good episode we do is
not originally our idea comes from a listener. It comes
from someone like you in the audience. So let us
know what the next big idea is. Let us know
what we should cover. Let us know what you think
(41:36):
about CO and Tell and about ghosts, and what we
should say or look into, at least about Osama bin Laden.
You can emails directly. Our address is conspiracy at Discovery
dot com. Oh and don't forget to order your CO
and telephone by heading on down to the street and
waving your arms around. Please note, by listening to this podcast,
(41:58):
you have legally agreed to the in terms of service
anti your sport go and help hope. For more on
this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube dot com
slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in touch on
(42:19):
Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
From UFOs two ghosts and government cover ups. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Greetings everyone,
welcome back. My name is Max and I am Ben
and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today,
(00:23):
we're looking at something that's pretty dark. It's a part
of the American past, and it encompasses a lot of
different groups, um, but one in particular. Right we are
talking about the famous co in tell pro Ladies and gentlemen.
This is one of those things that was once called
(00:46):
a conspiracy theory and later emerged, surprise, surprise, to be
a factual conspiracy spanning decades. And what we'd like to
do today is talk a little bit up how this came,
about what it was, how it affected both the United
States and the world, and uh, maybe we'll end on
(01:09):
a question about what happened to it? Right, Yeah, where
did it go? Oh? Man? What what dark humor? We
already have at the beginning gallows or here? Um? All right,
so co intel pro uh counter intelligence on the part
of the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation here in
(01:31):
good old us of a UM, the thing is that
this was an act of political repression, right, yes, and
it was a way to keep tabs on political groups
that were completely legal inside the US that the FBI,
headed by Jedger Hoover, believed could be a threat to
(01:52):
the country. Now what kind of threat existential? Physical? Right,
kind of argicles, ideological? Yeah, it varies, but the one
that we're gonna be focusing on today or the threats
are the physical threats that? Okay, yeah, and I think
that's fair. So a little bit of background cointelpro you're
(02:14):
probably wondering, is this another overly awkward government acronym? Uh?
Kind of but not really because it's it stands for
counterintelligence programs, So thank goodness, it's not like changing one
intelligent new I can't do that. But but the point
being here that it was an active UH surveillance and
(02:37):
repression program UH seen as vital for the national security
of the United States. And of course, national security is
everybody's favorite boogeyman, depending on which political generation you live in. Well,
so it's a boogeyman, and it's also the thing you
can just mention if you want to convince someone that
(02:57):
it's something is important. Yeah, I wish I could start
using national security just on my own personal thing for
some extra swag, but unfortunately I'm not a nation yet.
One day many yeah, maybe one day. But uh so,
the FBI, as we know, has engaged in similar acts
(03:18):
way way back in its time of inception, which is,
you know, uh, the early nineteen hundreds. Another example that
isn't quite cointelpro but it's a very similar operation would
be the FBI surveillance of suspected communists during the two
Red Scares of US history. That's right, there were two.
(03:38):
And yeah, yeah, I'm just I feel like maybe we
need to go ahead and do a whole another episode
on that as well. I think that deserves its own research. Um,
if you'd like to hear more about the Red Scare
one and then it's Red Scare Redo, let us know
and we will make a whole audio episode on that.
And uh I also did a guest host spot with
(04:01):
stuff you missed in history class on the Red Scare,
so you can tune in to hear some of that.
It's a deep cut, you guys. It's an oldie, but
a goodie. So we know that there were these different
methods for combating people who would challenge the status quo
of the nation. These could be people like communists or
anarchistra other political dissidents. These could also just be labor
(04:25):
movements and unions. Um So during the Truman and Roosevelt
years we start to see things that are more direct
predecessors of cointelpro around the thirties. But what we're talking about.
Cointelpro in its most well known form, officially began in
ninety six in August, and it was to stop the
(04:47):
communist communists. Man, you don't like capitalism, that everything that
we do is based on this one idea of the
set of ideas. So, uh, the kind of stuff they
would do, uh seems to range from mean spirited middle
school or pranks like anonymous phone calls you know quit, well,
(05:10):
you you know quit? You read commie yeah, two unnecessary
audits or unnecessarily thorough audits, government harassment and attempts to
infiltrate these groups and of course turn them against one another.
And something I never really thought about, ben is that
just the act of infiltrating a group one time and
(05:33):
then making it known that that group has been infiltrated
can create such dissension inside a group even if you
didn't really do use that infiltration for any means other
than to expose that it's been infiltrated. It just that
idea creates such suspicion amongst group members. Uh. It creates
(05:55):
uh yeah, just that idea of oh wait, now, if
that guy was an infiltrator or an FBI agent, then
oh my god, who is this person I've been speaking with? Right?
And it removes credibility for outside groups or outside observers
who might be future supporters of a group. Uh. So, well,
let's brackett the idea of communists as a threat to
(06:17):
the U S. I agree, It's a different show. Um,
we won't cover today. Let's look at the one of
the huge problems here, which is that shortly after um,
the inception of the modern co intel pro guy named Hoover,
who some of our listeners may have heard of, uh, decided,
you know who is also a threat to America as
(06:40):
it stands today, Uh, black leaders, black people in general, because,
as we can tell, Hoover at this time is a
fan of the racist ideology prevalent in the United States,
at least it seems to be from the memos that
have been Uh, I guess he classified in the kay
you're being very fair, Matt, I'm trying to be fair.
(07:02):
You are being very fair, and I'm sorry. Um, clearly
I am pro civil rights. No, I'm kidding, O kidding,
I I am joking. I am joking. But yeah, I
think you're being fair with the treatment of Hoover because
all we know is um the stuff left over in
the documents that, as far as we know, we're authored
(07:24):
by him. Right. Yeah, he was obviously afraid because again
he was head of the FBI at this time, and
he was obviously afraid of in what he called an
uprising um basically an overthrow of the status quo of
the time. Right, he pictured a revolution, yes, and after
(07:45):
in nineteen sixty three he started saying, Martin Luther King Jr.
Is the primary focus or the primary um, the potential
leader of a violent revolution or a violent revolution, which
is which is strange when you think about it, because
one of the huge differentiating factors between Martin Luther King
(08:10):
and other similar leaders like Malcolm X was that Martin
Luther King Jr. Uh clearly advocated UH non violent revolution,
you know, similar to Gandhi, similar to other organizations seeking
equality around the world. And in the FBI and memos,
it actually states that Martin Luther King Jr. Would be
(08:33):
the supreme leader of this UH of the black nationalist
movement if not for what they called his liberal leanings,
his non violence right. They specifically called it his white
liberals something right. I think we have a quote, and
while we're checking that out, let's just go ahead and say,
(08:56):
off the top, a little bit of a disclaimer, UH,
Cohen Hell pros illegal activities during this time we're conducted
in secret, were conducted without government oversight outside of the FBI,
And we're incredibly racist with this sort of veneer of
um concern for social social upstanding. But it's just the
(09:22):
same way that you would hear people use other euphemisms
in sadly enough, the modern day to disguise UH, huge
racist tendencies. So we are going to be talking about
some very ugly things in US history, to say the least.
So so I'm just gonna give you this is a
partial quote from the the memo about the the counterintelligence program,
(09:47):
and this is referring to black nationalists hate groups. This
is what they called them, Black nationalists hate groups. And
this is part of the goals in one of these memos,
and I'm just gonna read this to you, um, please
forgive me, like thank you for that caveat Ben. But
here we go. This is goal number two, to prevent
(10:08):
the rise of a messiah who could unify and electrify
the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been
such a messiah. Cole and he is the martyr of
the movement today. Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, and Elijah
Mohammed all aspire to this position. King could be a
very real contender for this position should he abandon his
(10:28):
supposed obedience to white liberal doctrine. And then in uh,
and then it just says non violence, uh in quotation marks.
But yeah, it's it's uh. It's strange when we think
about this, because this sounds like it is something that
could be written by a hate group like a white
power group. Today. However, um, this the stuff that comes
(10:53):
out of the FBI at this time is sadly in
line with a lot of other official government documentation and position.
So when they say that there are these radical black
hate groups or whatever, what, what they're focusing on are
things like the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee and Stokely
(11:17):
Carmichael the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Yeah, which they sund
like some bruisers, right, but they actually started program in
nineteen seventies, nineteen sixty seven, UH, and the FBI called
it co Intel pro Dash Black Hate. So it focused
on the Christian Leadership Conference, the Non Violent Coordinating Committee,
(11:38):
Martin Luther King himself, and the offices. UH. Twenty three
different FBI offices around the States were instructed to disrupt, misdirect, discredit,
or otherwise neutralize the activities of black nationalists hate type
organizations UM and the biggest to the right. Yeah too,
(11:59):
because there was a growing movement at the time and
they were just saying, you know, chop the head off,
you know. Not well they didn't. They didn't literally put
down in words anything about causing violence. Again these against
any of these leaders. They only were talking about undermining
their leadership, right, more of a nippet in the bud, Yes,
nippet in the bud, the kind of thing. And at
(12:20):
the same time this is interesting. At the same time,
they were working too to partner with other government agencies
in the case of wide scale civil unrest. I mean
riots that eat up a city and stuff. But one
of the one of the subtext of the secret co
(12:42):
Intel pro operations that I find so fascinating is that
a lot of this kicked into gear when Martin Luther
King was began speaking about uh, social inequality and financial inequality.
So the large speech that made him that made Dr
(13:03):
King number one on Hoover's Okay, we're a family friendly show,
so i'll call it a hit list, but that's alright,
short list of people that he considered a threat um.
One of the big speech that set this off was
(13:23):
came from his nineteen three March on Washington for Jobs
and Freedom, and that sounds so dangerous, doesn't it. Well,
I mean, I guess it could be to the status
quo at the time. But the the other thing was
the Poor People's Campaign, which was the idea to occupy Washington,
(13:46):
d C. And an idea that might sound familiar to
some of our listeners who might have been involved in
the occupy movement. So all of this goes on, and
there are other players that we're going to meet too,
of course, the Nation of Islam, the Black Panther Party
and the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party,
UM are definitely much more UM, let's see, much more
(14:12):
likely to consider violence as a mean to an end.
And depending on the members or the sections of what
you go to for some of these groups, UM, you know,
the Nation of Islam does have clearly racist elements. And
you know, I don't feel comfortable making a blanket statement
about the Black Panther Party because I do believe that
(14:35):
there is a difference between saying, you know, you can
be a black nationalist and not be a racist person. UM.
I think that is I I think we might get
some hate mail for that, but I can defend that
statement and to be fair. At the same time, co
intel Pro has putting some resources into monitoring white hate groups,
specifically the Ku Klux Klan just a little bit. What
(14:57):
was it about? Yeah, yeah, UM, the vast majority of
funding was going towards monitoring uh black what they call
black hate groups. And as we find later when the
Church Committee from the U. S. Senate investigated co intel Pro, UH,
they found that Cointelpro in some ways began because the
(15:19):
FBI was UM felt the FBI felt stymied and UH
they felt like they were too constrained by the Supreme
Court going, hey, you can't go out and beat the
crap out of people because they don't, you know, want
they don't agree with the current setup of the government. Uh.
(15:40):
But interesting story. The public would have never known about
co intel pro or it would have stayed a conspiracy
theory where it not for one particular moment in history,
one particular crime. Yes it was. There was a crime,
and we're gonna learn about that right after we get
back from a quick word from our sponsor. Thank you
(16:03):
for listening. And you know, like every every show, we
have ads and we just hope you will take into consideration. Uh,
you know, especially this new sponsor because we're really proud
of it. Are you tired of being unheard? Do you
feel that no one is listening to your voice? Are
(16:23):
you tired of forgetting all those great ideas you've had
and then just sitting around and trying to think of
them again in a haze of probably marijuana. When's the
last time you got angry about your phone bill? Friends,
fret no more. The answer to these and more questions
can all be found in our newest sponsor, Co and
(16:44):
Tell Phone. Co and Tell Phone, It's the only phone
that's always listening, even if it's all even if the
batteries aren't in. Never fear your next statements. Any thing
from a half hearted murmur of assent to a rambling
rants about the president will be collected instantly at our
(17:07):
top secret dative facilities. Information will be sent to the
n s A, the FBI, to c i A, and
all other government agencies in the alphabet. And the best
part is there's no charge for either the data plan
or the phone itself. Be aware of the tampering with, hacking, altering, misusing, purposely,
misplacing or otherwise damaging your CO and Tell phone maybe
(17:28):
punishable by up to fifteen years in prison. So come
on down to your nearest corner anywhere really and just
wave your hands around and say I want CO and
Telephone and we'll be there. Co and Tell Phone. We're
always listening. Brought to you by and we're back. So
(17:54):
uh now it's time to talk about how John and
Jane Q Public ever learned of CO and t L
pros weird racist campaign. To begin with, well, it's a
funny story, actually really interesting. Small group of activists calling
themselves the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI. They decided
(18:15):
they're in Philadelphia and there is a small FBI office
that is lightly guarded, and they believe that there is
information being held at the FBI um of illegal activities, essentially,
And these are just kind of regular citizens, like you said, Ben,
These aren't career criminals or no, not not criminals at all, terrorists.
(18:39):
These are much more likely to be students, academics and
such and uh, there's one PhD in there. And well,
they decided on the night of the Fight of the
Century in quotes the nine bout between Muhammad Ali and
Joe Frasier, they thought, well, hey, everybody's gonna be listening
on their radios or preoccupied on their television jans, this
(19:01):
is a great night to go and do some nefarious stuff,
nefarious to an extent. So they broke into the small office.
One guy was a lock pick, by the way, um,
and they took just a ton of files and they
proceeded to disseminate those files to various publishers and journalists.
(19:22):
And uh, that's how we found out about it, just
because a small group of people decided, you know what,
We're going to go in there and see what the
heck they're up to. And let's be clear, we are
not we're we're not able to say that this is
something people should ever do themselves, because it was committing
a crime. Still, they were absolutely committing. To correct, we
(19:42):
would not have uncovered the great deal of other crimes
perpetrated by the government had these people not committed a
crime themselves. In the aftermath of this, Uh, the public
goes bananas. Yeah, and this once upon a time, conspiracy
theories spread around by members of these various groups, including
(20:04):
anti war advocates. Uh, let's not forget that the FBI
also was focusing on people who were against the war
in Vietnam, for example. And so this comes to light
and what what is that from this, we see congressional investigations,
(20:25):
and these investigations conclude that the tactics employed by the
FBI and the programs that they were running are no
ifs ands or butts illegal so illegal just so against
the law. But then also the church committees report on
(20:46):
this emerged with some interesting instances of other, um, other
breaches of privacy, often the request of presidents. So let's
just walk through the presidents real quick. I'm ready, okay, um,
if you had if one of your favorite presidents is
from or earlier, just to get ready to know they're
(21:07):
not perfect. Um. Alright, So Roosevelt, President Roosevelt won the
FBI to UH keep track of citizens who are sending
telegrams to the White House against his national defense policy. UM.
Truman got insider information on Roosevelt's UH staffing, UM his
(21:29):
staff aids and how he would arrange meetings with them.
Eisenhower got reports on any UH contacts like friends of
foreign officials who they hung out with when they hung
out Washington, which you know a lot of these you
can understand. If the abilities there, someone's going to use it.
(21:49):
UM the UH. Kennedy wire tapped a bunch of people, UM,
including some law firms UM and UH the US and
his brother Robert F. Kennedy also UH listened into an
FBI wire tap on Dr King. I know President Johnson
(22:12):
Lyndon Johnson, who did all kinds of ridiculous stuff as well,
also had the FBI check up on his opponent in
the election. UH. And of course President Nixon had all
sorts of wire tapping adventures that we could probably cover
in a different podcast, and he himself found himself You know,
(22:32):
attached to a recording on the phone several times. Yep, uh,
I guess it. I don't know. Is it a lesson?
Maybe tappers become the tapped. If you live by the tap,
you should die by the tap. I don't know. That
doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's just a bad quotation. But
with this, what what this means is that the program
(22:56):
was exposed. And these kind of things only thrive in
darkness an obscurity. Yeah. The only the only way you're
ever going to find out about it if someone decides
to use go by their conscience and leak it out.
I mean really, it's It's kind of brings us back
to whistleblowers again and the importance of that kind of thing,
and also the danger to these organizations like the FBI
(23:19):
of whistleblowers and the n s A and why they're
so terrified of people like Edward Snowden and I. You know,
I have to ask you before let's take a sidebar,
before we finish the co intel part or get to
what I think is the most exciting part of this podcast. Um,
I have to ask you do you think that people
(23:40):
who uh, people who as you said, follow their conscious
working for the government or any government and disclose these secrets.
Do you think that they should be immune to the
laws for violating that agreement? It's very strange, it should be.
It's it's such a tough area because you've you've got
to be beholden to law. Law has to stand no
(24:03):
matter what. If we live in a just society. Um.
But if but if a group, a group that you're
working for is breaking the law and you're you're aware
of it, but nobody else is aware of it, and
you come out, I think I think there should be
some kind of immunity there. Okay, here's my thing. If
you are whistle blowing for a private organization that is
(24:26):
breaking the law, let's say, um let's let's say that
some you find out that some fast food company is
uh skirting hygiene laws putting illegal additives in. You blow
the whistle. You're probably gonna get fired. Why would you
want to keep working there? And there are protections for
you and in government organizations or those affiliated with government
(24:49):
organizations when you sign the oaths of secrecy or the
n d A s and all that other stuff, which
means non disclosure agreement, then I believe that people should
if you're if you're following your conscience, you should be
fully prepared for the ramifications or consequences of the actions
that you agree to, Like it's a process that you
(25:10):
agree to originally. And we could have some maybe some
of our listeners will write in and say, well, there
they you don't know what you're agreeing to. It's a
pig in a poke because you don't know what you're
keeping secret in tift you sign it. But the idea
of UM, the the idea of blanket immunity for anyone
(25:31):
who follows their conscious that the problem with that is
that people's conscious or moral decisions don't always follow the
same compass. Sure, sure they all vary. And and also
if that was true, then yeah, there would be so
many whistleblowers because come on, man, capitalism is based on
the exploitation of of something, right I mean, And so
(25:55):
if you're if everyone was following their conscience, yeah, nothing
would ever get done. There would be no industry. Well,
you know, it's very interesting because you and I have
You and I have had this conversation often and outside
of work or when we're off the air, and one
of the questions that we ask each other is are
(26:15):
we approaching a future wherein secrets will be impossible? And
I think that's a that's a powerful question, but it's
also a question for another day. And but it kind
of brings us to the last part of this episode,
which is, as we approached this future where secrets don't
exist anymore, and we're getting closer and closer to that edge,
(26:39):
what the heck happened to this co Intel program? Does
it still exist and it or did it just morph?
Did it change a little bit into something else? What
do you think? Ben? Personally? I think that it never
really stopped. There's absolutely no reason nor compelling consequence large
(27:01):
enough to prevent people from continuing to use this ability.
In fact, as the leaks by both Julian Osandra and
Edwards Snowden show, UH, the technology has increased and the
intent has also become more focused, more clarified. Uh. The
(27:24):
idea of national security UM, whether or not you are
I or anyone thinks it's a valid or invalid thing. Uh,
the point is that the idea has enough support there
that it gets us to uh some some frightening edges.
So I think that not only do things like cointelpro
(27:46):
continue and there is proof that you know, these things
do continue, maybe not in a huge unified way, but
it's kind of monitoring infiltration clearly continues. Um. The scary
thing is for me it six siding and frightening is uh,
how how far along has technology pushed these original aims?
(28:08):
You know, the idea that the days of having to
physically go to a telephone line, physically put a wire
in to listen to someone. Uh, those days are long gone. Yeah,
that is That is something that we didn't even really
talk about too much. Is the methods used for these
co intels under the information Um, and I don't mean
(28:30):
to swing way back, but just as some context for
what we're talking about here, you would you if you
wanted to say, listen into somebody's conversations they were having
in a hotel room, let's say in a motel somewhere,
the you would have to get the room next to
adjacent to the room of the person you're trying to monitor,
put a microphone up against the wall, or somehow plant
(28:52):
a microphone in that room before they rent the room out,
or I mean there's it was very difficult, or you'd
have to catch them on a phone conversation in order
to get actual evidence. Yeah, there's uh there's a guy
named Brian Glick who wrote a book called War at Home,
and in War at Home, Glick talks about for umbrella
(29:14):
methods that the FBI would use during co and telpro
and one of these courses infiltration. So you know, you're
I know, I always use the Vegan co op as
an example, So you're you're the Vegan coop, right, and
guys are uh so angry that, um, it's difficult to
grow heirloom produce right because of all the pesticides used
(29:38):
in large agricultural concerns and income. Some guy, you know,
Falcon and he came from Portland's or something, and he's
super cool. You know, he's cool. It turns out he's
been working for the FBI the entire time, not Falcon Alkin.
And then there's uh so that's one infiltration, another one
(29:59):
psychological war fair. I would also count this as propaganda,
So this would be misinformation like sending out getting the
letter head of whatever group you're upset with, and then
sending out baked publications like I always I always enjoy
reading a news story, um where the news is coming
from an anonymous source or an official who asked not
(30:22):
to be named of the company or the department, because
that that kind of that always makes me think that
someone got the soft go ahead, the soft green light. Uh.
So the next one would be legal harassment. This is
what we're talking about when we said, UM, people getting
audited every year on the dot um without necessarily being
(30:44):
shady or false, arrest um, wrong, wrongful imprisonment um. And
then another one, of course, one of the more dangerous
would be illegal force uh, which which is kind of
a vague term, but that means stuff like partnering with
local law enforcement to do break in a raid on
(31:05):
a house. No, no warrant searches is one of the
big ones. Nowidation really that's yeah, it all all, all,
all three of the everything except for UM. I think
the propaganda stuff goes back to intimidation and maybe propaganda
as well. Psychological warfare also includes directly addressing people. It's
(31:28):
a dirty, murky realm. It is infiltration, it is and
you know, we have to stop back. We have to
step back for a second here, UM, and I have
to ask you the question, and then we also have
to make a statement after this. So here's the question. That.
Do you think Coentel Pro or something like it continues. Well, yeah,
(31:50):
I think obviously, I think anyone who's paying attention to
the news lately, just the technology. The technology makes it
so easy. Now, why wouldn't you, like you said earlier,
you know, if if you have access to a technology
that makes with the presidents that you have the ability
to get I'm going to use this word. I know
(32:11):
this is kind of a bad word, but gather information.
It's so easy to do it now that why wouldn't
you So? Yeah, it's if we look at these capabilities
is sort of the Lord of the Rings analogy, a
ring of power. It's very, very difficult to throw that
kind of ability away, and for some people it's impossible.
But uh, that's that's a pretty crappy comparison, of course. Um,
(32:35):
one thing I would say, or maybe it's not too
much of a bad comparison, because you can be invisible,
can as you said, gather information. I like it. I'm
on board. I'm back on board with it. But the
biggest thing that is whether or not it's whether or
not the infiltration techniques are being used and the you know, um,
I'm trying to think of groups that are being uh,
(32:59):
you know, their doors are being pushed in by a
local police or something. There are groups who have made
we've made claims about stuff like this. Uh. We have
to be very careful with this too, because it's no
secret that often, often both both sides of these equations
(33:20):
can tell wildly different stories. You know. There are examples
of people who said that the um f d A
came and confiscated all of the raw milk that a
small farm was creating. Um, and it comes out that
there was an outbreak of disease and it wasn't just
(33:40):
this farm, it was everything in a certain risk area
or something like that. I'm not saying that there's a
right wrong, but I am saying there are two ways
about it. And then I feel that it would be
remiss for us to make this this statement. Um, don't
do it. Let me get my soapbox. Oh yeah, if
we did not make this statement, we would be remiss.
(34:01):
Thank you mann. Good save um, so, let me get
my audio soapbox. Here. Probably hear me stepping up on it,
and here we go. We are not saying that governments
are inherently evil. We are not telling anybody that, you know,
big brother is going to come and just steal things
(34:22):
to make your life inconvenient, like just your left shoes
or something. But what we are saying is that it
is clearly proven that cointelpro as with the co Intel
pro pro proper, actually did occur and probably would have
continued had it not been for someone committing a crime.
This is a very heavy moral question, you know, um,
(34:45):
and it's one that comes back up again in the
modern day with Edward Snowdon. I read an interesting conspiracy
theory recently met that said, um, Edward Snowdon as a
Russian operative, um and that he was deep cover, which
doesn't make too much sense given his age. But um,
(35:07):
I've been reading a lot of Edward Snowden conspiracy theories
and I heard, uh one that said that he was
working for Russia and that the secrets he's quote unquote leaked,
we're not really true at all, and it's Russian propaganda. Um. Well,
our our government certainly hasn't done a great job of
dispelling They have not. They have not. And then another
(35:31):
one I read was that um was that he had
Edward Snowden had a green light from Washington and from
Langley to go public with this, whoa to try and
start descent amongst them? I don't know, the World War
three will come along and then there wasn't any evidence
of this at least that I could find. But you know,
(35:53):
right in and and uh, let us know what you think. Well,
it's see, it's so crazy, man, because in the world's
again these murky world of just spying and and secret information.
Who the heck? Who do you trust? Ben? Who do
I trust? Who can you trust? Um? No trust no one. Yeah,
(36:14):
I'm starting to wonder about you and Noel. Honestly, Well, look,
I'll tell you about an old later. We'll have a
little sidebar. He's always listening. He's always got these headphones on.
I swear you can hear every word that I say. Alright,
so uh before here, Well, thee last thing, one last thing.
If you're if you're interested in the Citizens Commission to
(36:35):
Investigate the FBI and that whole story, please check out
The Burglary Colon The Discovery of Jed gro Hoover's Secret FBI.
It's a book written by Betty Metzker and it's fascinating.
I put a little clip of it in our episode
about coin tel pro Um when I think they were
on democracy Now. It's a fascinating book. It's really good read. Um,
(36:57):
check it out if you're interested. Oh and less, do
you think that we are being a direct source of misinformation?
And maybe you're saying no, man, Co and tell Pro
that's crazy talk. You can go to the FBI dot
gov website directly check out the thing they have called
the vault where they admit what the Congressional investigation found
(37:20):
in CO and tel Pro. That was a mental exercise
to phrase that that carefully, wasn't it. That is interesting
that they're like, yes, we will admit to what this
one congressional committee said was true. And you know that's
probably that's probably the way you have to do it.
And as always before we in the podcast, we always
want to go straight to the learn more with with you, Matt.
(37:44):
You always have a source for us to learn more from,
and thank you for doing that, by the way, And
then we like to read listener mail. All right, we've
got got a couple today. So um, First, we we've
been getting some ghost stories. Remember we get the ghosts
(38:04):
really good one. Yes. Uh so first I was thinking
we could go to a government related thing and then
we'll do one ghost story, all right. So uh, Tiffany
w writes to us, um, I believe Tiffany is just
from the Internet. She doesn't say where she's from. So
Tiffany says, Hi, guys, I'm writing to request to show
about nine eleven and Ben Lauden. Uh heh, Tiffany says,
(38:26):
A cousin of mine recently posted to Facebook this. I
feel bad for Ben lauding our government through nine eleven
on him. He denied it, But if you did that
to America, wouldn't you brag about it? Don't believe me?
Watch loose Change nine eleven, which is loose change is
a thing that you and I hear about a lot.
It's one of the first things I ever saw in
the Conspiracy realm uh So, Tiffany continues, it was such
(38:47):
an inflammatory post. He got quite defensive when the folks
on his friends list tried to debate this with him.
I would like to know more about this topic. I
know it's controversial and it's a touchy subject, but it
might be a good idea to educate folks about this
topic and the theory surrounding it. I'm in a man
A few words, all right, Um, yeah, we'll take a
look at especially if other listeners are interested in hearing it,
(39:10):
or there's something you want us to talk about related
to ben La and nine eleven. Let us know our
last email, the one that is related to ghosts. I'm
looking at it and I'm realizing it's probably a little
too long to read on on this show right now.
Maybe we can great, Yeah, it was great. Uh. It
comes from a friend of ours named Nick. Uh and
(39:30):
Nick wrote into tell us about a paranormal experience he
add on set on Saturday in December nineteen, two thousand
and nine, which remains the worst day of his life. Uh. Nick,
we hope you're listening. We want you to know that
we were big fans of this story, and you know,
maybe we should save this for when we do another
(39:51):
entirely listener mail episode. That'd be great. We just read
the entire story. Yeah, we can make a make a
day of it. Yeah, let's do it. Let's put that
the vault, all right, So everybody is gonna have to
hold on for Nick's ghost story. But we've been receiving
some other great ghost stories and uh, we would like
to read some of them on the air in the future.
(40:12):
So if you have a story for us, please write
to us and let us know. You can find us
on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can
find us on Oh what wait, big news. We have
our very own website now it's w w W dot stuff.
They don't want you to know dot com. Yeah, it's
(40:32):
all true. We have a website. It's crazy. If you
guys want to support what we're doing here, the best
way to do that is to go to our website.
You can watch all of our videos there. You can
listen to all of these podcast episodes. Um easily clickable.
We're gonna have blogs coming. Uh. And we also want
to know if we should start a forum. We've been
(40:53):
looking into it. We don't want to start it unless
you are into it and something that you would be
interested in doing. Uh. Being able to talk with the
other listeners in this community directly. Uh inside, Yes, and
in the future are that forum can really serve as
our future episode kind of the machine that creates our
(41:14):
future episodes where we have people discussing certain topics and
then I think it's gonna be huge if you guys
are interested. Every every really good episode we do is
not originally our idea comes from a listener. It comes
from someone like you in the audience. So let us
know what the next big idea is. Let us know
what we should cover. Let us know what you think
(41:36):
about CO and Tell and about ghosts, and what we
should say or look into, at least about Osama bin Laden.
You can emails directly. Our address is conspiracy at Discovery
dot com. Oh and don't forget to order your CO
and telephone by heading on down to the street and
waving your arms around. Please note, by listening to this podcast,
(41:58):
you have legally agreed to the in terms of service
anti your sport go and help hope. For more on
this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube dot com
slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in touch on
(42:19):
Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Show Links
RSSStoreAboutLive ShowsPopular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.