Who Controls The Narrative? An Interview With Waiting On Reparations

In a world of ubiquitous information, protests, activism and propaganda exist in the digital world as much as the physical. The war for control of a given narrative is waged as much online as it is on the street. So how do we as individuals understand the discrepancy between the stories presented between various factions of the media? Join the guys as they sit down with Linqua Franqa and Dope Knife, hosts of iHeart's new podcast Waiting on Reparations to learn more about activism in the modern day.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

They don't want you to read our book.: https://static.macmillan.com/static/fib/stuff-you-should-read/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Before we begin today's episode, we have an announcement for you,
fellow conspiracy realists. This is something that we are massively
excited about. We've been working on it for a while
and astute listeners, you'll notice we've been hinting about it
for what would you say, guys, a month or so.
That's right, you've been asking for more episodes, and we

(00:24):
have granted thine wishes. Usually the fanfare comes before the announcement,
but I think it still works. It's true we're going
to five episodes a week. You're still going to get
the deep dive stuff they don't want to know episodes
you're used to every Wednesday and Friday, but we're introducing
a few other new styles of episode into the mix
as well. We often say that you, specifically, you are

(00:47):
the most important part of this show. We're putting our
money where our metaphorical mouth is here, and we'll have
a special listener mail episode each and every single week.
We'll also have up to the minute ish conspiracy news
on our Strange News segment, which comes out on Mondays.
And for everyone who's written to us searching for the

(01:09):
older episodes that you just can't find on Apple podcast
will be reintroducing our classics to the feet, so we
hope you are as excited as we are. Look forward
to lots more than Matt Noel and Mission Control coming
to you very soon. This episode contains explicit language, frank conversation,

(01:37):
and we wanted to let you know going in. If
you're a person who is bothered by curse words, perhaps
this is not for you. Yes, this is a little
bit of a different type of conversation that you might
be used to on stuff that it wants you to know. Um,
we and our guests dive deep into some very frank
conversations around race and politics and a lot of the
things that are going on right now in the world.

(01:58):
So just before one oh and one more thing, we
recorded this in mid June, so you're gonna hear us
reference a couple of events that were current at the
time but have already resolved or have evolved since then.
So just keep that in mind as you're listening. From
UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, History is riddled

(02:19):
with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn
the stuff they don't want you to know. A production
of My Heart Radio Hello, Welcome back to the show.

(02:40):
My name is Matt, my name isn't all They called
me Ben. We are joined as always with our super
producer Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. In the age of ubiquitous information,
it's no secret that protests are waged as much online

(03:01):
as they are in the streets, and there is an
ongoing struggle with many participants to control the narrative of events,
to spend the stories you see on the news, here,
on the radio, or hear from your friends on social media.
Today's questions where do these discrepancies come from? And how
do we combat them? Now? What we'd like to do

(03:24):
in today's episode is to explore a number of wide
ranging topics with some help from our peer podcasters, the
host of one of our newest and in my opinion,
best shows on the I Heart Network, Waiting on Reparations.
We are immensely fortunate to be joined today with Dope

(03:48):
Knife and Link with Franca. Thank you so much for
coming onto the show today. Yeah, it's tough to be here.
Thank you as for having us. Let's just maybe have
you guys introduce yourselves and tell us about eating on reparations.
So link with if you don't mind, can we start
with you? Yeah? So um I UM a linguists, an educator, UM,

(04:09):
a rapper, community organizer, and a politician here in Athens, Georgia.
I've been organizing in the community since two thousand sixteen.
Started off doing it around hip hop shows and then
later translating those skills into electoral campaign work, and then
decided to run for off myself. So um. I got

(04:31):
my Masters and linguistics at the University of Georgia in
two thousand seventeen. Currently working on my PhD and trying
to kick gas, take names, transform some broken systems. Uh
that I think a lot of us are seeing across
the country need transforming. Uh. So it's really great to
have this podcast at a time where people are looking

(04:51):
for direction in this movement, like what does it look
like to transform things in a localized way? What does
it look like on the ground organizing in these communities?
Is that needed? Um? So, Yeah, it's a little bit
about me. What about you? Mac oh um. My name
is Dope Knife Um. I'm a rapper producer from Savannah, Georgia.

(05:14):
Originally from Liberia, um son of a diplomat. I grew
up overseas. I used to work for the State Department
at one point in time before I started rapping. I've
toured all over the country, and uh, I'm pretty pretty
good at rapping, and you're an amazing illustrated Yes, I'm
also a comic book artist, and I direct and edit

(05:36):
music videos, and I'm also the producer as well as
co host of the Waiting on Reparations podcast. So so
do linquick? Could you tell us a little bit about
the impetus that led to the creation of Waiting on
Reparations and maybe describe what our audience encounters when they
hear an episode. Well, frankly, I've been a fan of

(05:57):
Mac for many years before we'd be came collaborators, and
so when we went on tour together back into thousand seventeen,
we got to learn a lot about each other's politics
and are like music and come to appreciate each other's
perspectives on both those things. And so when no reached
out to me about doing this podcast, he was the
first person I thought of. In fact, he was living

(06:18):
in Savannah at the time, and I invited him to
come move into my house so that we could do
this podcasts together. But um, given his background with international
travel and his expertise in LIKE media and my expertise
with like policy making at a local level, I just
made sense to bring together a podcast that touches on

(06:42):
both of those worlds in our brains and help listeners
to hip hop or followers of UH political developments across
the country to synthesize those ideas and kind of see
the way they relate through this show. Yeah. I mean
think the tour that we went on is probably the

(07:03):
most like, you know, the biggest revelation and the fact
that we'd be able to work together, because it was
like a solid with two three weeks just being on
the road and we're just hanging out and just talking
and getting to know each other better. Because like when
we first initially met, it was like I was at
a show and we were talking like over loud music

(07:23):
in a in a club while another performer was going on.
And then after that it was just like Facebook and
internet correspondence. So for that first time of us being
able to go on tour and then especially then it
was like, oh ship, you're wrapping now and you've got
an album and you're on tour ship all right, you know,
so getting to know her better like that, and seeing
the type of chemistry that we had, just in terms

(07:44):
of the conversations we would have, like when we're not
being recorded, it was like, okay, yeah, we could. We
could definitely do a podcast and have it be dope,
so listeners will get a taste of um. The way
that hip hop us influence public policy, anything from like
back in the nineties with the Crime Bill, the way
that gangster rap was being investigated by the Senate Judiciary
Committee and like and how that influenced mass incarceration that

(08:07):
followed the ninety four crime though, to the way that
hip hop artists have pushed forward messages of social change
through their music, to the way that poblic policy has
shaped the history of hip hop, you know, anything from
policy around sex work to labor rights to again mass incarceration,
the way that has inflected hip hop as we know it.

(08:30):
And so those are the kinds of things that you'll
end up hearing when you listen to Writing on Reparations.
The first episode of your of your podcast addresses the
current events that are happening since George Floyd's murder, and
I think maybe our audience would be very interested in
your take on the situation from that, from that policy making,
actually knowing where there are things that can be done,

(08:53):
places where improvement can can be done. Uh, maybe just
give us your take on what's happening with the movement
to seek change right now. Ultimately, for me, it depends
on where everyone's head is at, because like, right now,
there's it's definitely like the beginning of it where everyone's
got emotion behind them, and emotion is needed because it's

(09:15):
got people out there in the streets and it's bringing
attention to, you know, things that need to be done.
But I think now it's going to start moving into
the phase of is there like a solid policy goal
behind it? You know, so far it seems to be
so far to defund the police seems to be the
flagship that everyone's like writing on. But only time will

(09:37):
tell with things like like this, you know, like right now,
I think what makes this different is just this unique
situation that we're in where we've got a global pandemic
and then we're in a damn near recession, if not
a full on recession. Then you go and add this
to the mix, and it's just like a spark that
starts civil unrest. It's the sort of thing where I

(10:00):
think if George Floyd had just if George, if George
Floyd had happened at any other time, then I think
it would be a situation where people would be mad
for about two weeks and then we'd go on about
our lives, you know what I mean. But now I
think the urgency of the times that we live in
just make everything that much more heightened. And that's what

(10:21):
I think has people really energized to be like, no
funk this. I mean, something has to change, and it
has to change now. You know, there's no no more
of this like waiting for for stuff to like incrementally change.
We've got to like get out there and make it
happen now. And when we're talking about making it happen,
you know, people have been calling to defund the police,
but taking to the streets to that end, It's only

(10:43):
so effective. You can raise awareness, you can cause mass
disruption that draws attention to the this um this need,
but it really requires folks at the local level, in
my opinion, to start to get to know their local
government to add their local government's budget especially and start

(11:04):
making concrete, tangible demands for the reallocation of funds if
that's what people are desiring for from this, which I
agree is necessary. We've seen that reforms haven't worked. Chokeholds
were already banned in places, and people keep dying from
them anyway. Um, cops keep getting more training in de
escalation and use of force, but the cop that shot

(11:26):
Rachard Brooks, you know, that didn't stop him from murdering
a man, even though he'd recently received that training. And
so I am one of those folks that is um
joining in calls to the funding police. But it requires
understanding their current funding. Requires looking at that several hundred
page document and understanding where that money is going and
where that money isn't going in terms of community investments,

(11:50):
to understand how much we're spending on housing and social
work and wellness and community programs, and whether or not
we're fully meeting the needs of the community, and how
we can better allocate funds to actually support folks and
not getting you know, not uh falling asleep in a
Wendy's parking lot because they're too funked up or whatever.

(12:11):
So yeah, so what do we do now? People are
up in arms, a lot of folks that haven't been
involved in organizing before. But it's really critical that folks
come to understand the local governments, especially because cysically we're
not educated and how to get involved in our local government.
All the focuses on the federal level and you know,

(12:31):
somewhat so on the state level, and we ignore who
our county commissioners are and who our city counselors are
and we need to when but we can go to
that person's house and demand change. We can like write
them a letter or call them on the phone and
they'll actually pick up the phone. And so that is like,
to me, the critical uh pressure point that people need

(12:53):
to be taking advantage of and like and exploring and
learning more about and leaning on absolutely. And I think
people get really caught up in like getting disenchanted by, oh,
I only have so much power, and it's all about
like you know, national elections rather than state elections or
local government, and so people kind of like lose sight
of some of those ways that you can't actually affect

(13:14):
change on that level. I think that's a really good
good advice just in general, just kind of be more
aware of these levers that you have at your disposal.
I mean, the government is technically there to serve you
in the community, and it's up to you to get
involved and to reach out and to ask questions and
to you know, investigate this kind of stuff. But I'd
like to just really quickly double back to the idea
of defunding the police on its surface and as a

(13:36):
rallying cry, and if you don't really know anything about
it, it it seems really extreme. It seems like really radical,
like let's get rid of police. People will say, well,
who's going to protect us? You know what happens then
it's gonna be chaos in the streets. And I think
it's really important to point out that that's not what
that means. It's more what you said where it's like,
where is that money going. I saw a meme or
something where I was like, how come teachers have to

(13:57):
buy their own supplies, but every cop gets a Captain
America a shield. You know, It's like the amount of
money that's like it costs to like outfit a health
worker in Ppe pales in comparison to what it costs
to outfit a police officer and right here. So it's just,
you know, it's all about that kind of like disconnect,
I think, and I think, you know, the idea of
saying defund the police. It's easy to get worked up

(14:19):
about that and say, oh, that's absurd, that's extreme. But
I don't know, i'd let's just talk a little bit
more about what that actually means at heart and and
and what it looks like. Yeah, I kinda, I kind of.
I mean, personally, I think that, um, you know, I've
I've heard the argument that it's like it's not on
the the burdens, not on the people who are out
there to to come up with a slogan that's fitting

(14:43):
or suitable, and I completely understand that, but just in
terms of messaging, I think it's a pretty stupid name
for what they mean because it's well, I think I
think that the issue isn't like, well, it wasn't up
to them to come up with a good slogan. It's
that these folks have been organizing on the ground and
studying the work up abolitionist thinkers for decades, and so
if they decided that this is what they wanted to

(15:04):
go with, it's not that they just made it up
on the fly. It's like, this is an intentional effort
and we should get behind them. From a principal standpoint,
I totally get that. It's just it's just a matter
of everybody who I hear talking about defund the police
always has to like start with it doesn't actually mean. Well,

(15:24):
if if defund the police legitimately meant defund the police,
like what those words mean, then that's what we mean.
That it does literally mean take money away from police departments. Well,
I mean it doesn't it more so. I mean maybe
it's me misunderstanding it, but from it seems like it
more means like reallocating funds for police departments, like for example,

(15:45):
you know the whole notion of um, why send somebody
who's arm to go answer like a situation that's not
a dangerous situation. I literally had a constituent this morning
text me to say that they were on a walk
with their dog and saw a man laying down in
his yard who, when approached, wasn't able to identify himself

(16:06):
by name, and so they were trying to figure out
They didn't want to call nine one one, but they
wanted to get this man help. Unfortunately, one of their
other neighbors called nine one, one, and four cop cars
showed up. Does that make that man laying in his
yard feel safer to know that, oh good, there's a
bunch of dudes with guns here now. And so I
also conceptualized this as like reimagining public safety, uh, diversifying

(16:30):
the way we address community crisis and crisis prevention. So,
I mean, I get whatever critiques people want to have
about defund the police, but the organizers that came up
with it are smart folks, and so I stand with them.
I mean again, I still I still think the fund
the police. It it rolls off the tongue nicely, but

(16:51):
at the end of the day, I mean, we saying
it know that it evokes a perception like it makes
people think that it's something that it's not. So my
you know, just my general thinking is okay, then why
don't we say what we mean? But I mean, you know,
if the it seems like the strategy is to just

(17:12):
to stick to that slogan and that and the messaging
is more important than necessarily worrying about who can easily
understand it. The political education has to happen either way.
If we're like, well, we want to reallocate funding to housing.
Like still it requires that study our budgets to understand
to what degree we need to do that reallocation and

(17:33):
like how many dollars are actually putting into that stuff,
and then answering those questions about what public safety will
look like if we reallocate funding. So I don't buy,
I don't buy people saying to fund the police doesn't
work because the political education that's happened. No matter what,
I think, we're hitting on a fantastic point here, and
and it's a larger one because we're talking about, you know,

(17:55):
to a degree, we're talking about messaging, right and mass
perception and this this goes into this concept of of narrative, right.
I think for anyone who's been watching the protests ongoing right,
anybody's watching this or participating, notices this huge discrepancy between

(18:17):
what you're seeing on you know, your local channel two
versus what you're seeing from your own experience or what
you're seeing in your friends Instagram stories or protesters posting
directly to social media. What do opponents of various grassroots
movements who control the levers of mass media, what what

(18:38):
tactics do they use too, I would say, dilute or
deter or control, uh, the narrative of a movement and
and how do people how do people combat that? I mean,
it makes it all the more important for us to
be their own reporters of our experiences. The importance of
social media right now. It's disseminate uh, verified accounts of

(19:04):
like what's going on, because they can easily focus on
that ten second shot of this tussle happening in the
Crown where a pro police in a defund the police
protesters are throwing fisticuffs and miss out on the other
four hours of the protests where they're marching peacefully and
singing together. And so it's so important for us to
tell our own stories because I think they are cherry

(19:26):
picking their informants. They are trying to sensationalize what's happening
by focusing on the most the triolic imagery that they
can find. And so yeah, I would agree that mass
perception is sort of being twisted by folks that get
clicks when it looks violent, or get views when people
are glued to their screen because what they see scares them,

(19:48):
rather than getting a variety of accounts to give a better, clearer,
more objective view of what's happening out here. What I
think about that kind of it kind of you know,
goes back into the the last question that we're talking
about in terms of messaging and with the defund the police,
because it's like, we can't ignore the fact that something

(20:11):
like Fox News exists and that Fox News talks to
millions and millions of people. So I'm not saying we
have to gear any sort of message for Fox News,
But what I'm saying is, if we know that Fox
News is manipulated, if channels like Fox News in these
big corporate news stations, if we know that they're manipulating

(20:31):
our messages and stuff like that, to me, it just
seems like counterproductive to give them AMMO, you know, because
it's like, we know what to fund the police means,
but there's a whole echo chamber out there that's being
literally brainwashed to think it means something other than what
it means. So we can either like be in the
mindset of like, yo, that sixty million people, screw them.

(20:55):
We don't give a funk about what they know or
what they think, or what who's feeding the went information
we're sticking by your thing because you should you should
know what we know then. I mean, I'm just saying like,
if that's if that's where we're at, then okay. But
I just think that it would probably be you know,
and even saying it out loud sounds stupid because it's like, oh,
protesters and an activist should be thinking about a slogan.

(21:18):
That sounds ridiculous. But you know, in the world that
we live in, you know, messaging matters, and I just
think that of a more streamlined message would be would
be better for that. What do you all think about
the way that this uprising is being portrayed in the media. Well,
I mean, I think one of the main things to
look at right now is what's happening in Seattle exactly

(21:43):
perfect point. Yeah, just just the very almost polar opposite
ways in which the movement there is being portrayed in
the media. Um, and it really, like like you're saying,
it does speak to I mean you'd have to you
have to go back really far to really get into

(22:04):
all this stuff. But really thinking about the media bubbles
that have existed for a while, that have been shaped
by these different companies who are serving specific audiences, and
you know they're they're telling their audiences what they want
to hear in order to capture their eyes and ears
for advertising dollars. Right. I mean, that's really what it is, um.

(22:27):
And when you you know, I'll just to stand up
for a second. Like I've been having, I think a
lot of us have been having a lot of conversations
with our friends and families. Maybe I know, I know
in my family, my wife's family, there's been some hard
conversations trying to get people to see a little more
evenly rounded of what it's happening here, so to be

(22:49):
able to see points of view outside of their own,
outside of our own, my own, um. And it's been
a difficult process because we can each be fed our
own version of the truth or the thing that we
want to believe is the truth for sure. And that's
why I like that person to person political education is
so important for us to have that conversation with our

(23:11):
cousins or co workers or classmates about what to fund
the police means because everyone else has an agenda, they
got ads lots to feel, uh. Whereas a person genuinely
expressing their vision for a better world to someone that
they trust and know. It's a lot more effective way

(23:32):
of like building a movement to spelling myths and just
building community as well as like having that honest kind
of dialogue. And in general, we're not a political show.
We do our best to kind of stay relatively a
political and not you know, show too much of our
personal opinions about a lot of stuff. We try to
stick to the facts, but you'll talk about a lot
of governmentships, We absolutely do, but our goal is not

(23:56):
to be editorializing most of the time. UM. And with
this stuff, it's kind of pushed things to a place
where that's really difficult to do. UM. And I think
that's why we're we're ready to have this conversation with
with y'all and because it's such a polarizing time more
than ever. But it's also like, I don't know, it's

(24:16):
like we're we sometimes are dancing around like, oh, how
do we say this, how do we couch this? How
do we you know, say our opinions about this without
offending anybody or offending the people were trying to support.
And I just an example for me personally as my
ex wife who I'm really close with, and I and
our eleven year old daughter and a friend of hers
and her son, Um we did like a little mini

(24:37):
protests because they've been really careful about coronavirus and she
has a young baby, young young toddler, and so she's like,
I want to do the thing. And we both live
in the same predominantly black neighborhood in Atlanta and um
Candler mccafee area. And at first I was uncomfortable because
I was like, Okay, we're it's five of us. We're

(24:57):
standing on the corner on this you know, busy intersection
in this predominantly black neighborhood that is being gentrified and
we are part of that. And I was like, a,
are we coming off as like preaching to the choir
where people are like duh, black lives matter? Yeah, Like
what are you? Who are you trying to tell? But
that was another response we got at all, and I
felt this sense of like, Okay, it matters that people

(25:21):
see that they are supported and that they are seeing
And it was something that like was very empowering is
not the right word, but it just it gave me
this feeling that I hadn't that have been struggling with
where it's like how do you voice your support without
coming off as performative or coming off in whatever way.
And the fact is, if you really mean what you're saying,
then you're not going to come off that way. And

(25:42):
if you really are and maybe somebody calls you out
for performativity and you accept that with grace and you
like learn and you figure out how to be a
better ally, but like you have to be willing to fail.
So the fact that you went out there on that
corner and just like I'm going to hold this on
and see what happens, like you have to do that
kind of stuff and to learn what is the most
effective form of support that your community needs. I'd like

(26:05):
to interject your real quick No, with all due respect,
I disagree with your characterization of the show all things,
all actions are political actions. Uh tell them. I feel
that we have the facts on our side, or we
work very hard to find the facts. And when we've
been accused of being quote unquote political, it's often by

(26:29):
people who are angry that the facts and the reality
of the world do not conform to their opinion. And
that's I think that's an important distinction there. Um and
and I think you're making excellent points about direct action
and protest. Everyone is involved. You can admit it or
you you can accept it or you can deny it.

(26:50):
But everyone is involved in every action is inherently a
political action. And then I completely agree with you. And
all I was trying to say was we do our
best to grandstand or to make it about us. It's
all about the facts, like you said, and people that
get upset don't like which side the facts fall on,
whether it makes them feel bad about their view or

(27:11):
or what have you. Um, when I say we're trying
to be a political show, that was a poor choice
of words. I just mean, you know, we are. We
do try to be fact based and let the chips
fall where they may in terms of how people interpret
that or the reality. It's not up to us. We just,
like you said, do the research and try to you know,
get to the heart of things. And many of those
things are political issues. Yeah, and on that point, you know,

(27:34):
we just had a recent episode about coincial pro and
in it um talking a lot about the gears of
government that turn unseen beyond the veneer of electoral politics.
We elect people and put them in office that then
task the FBI these paper pushers, these agents that are
just taking orders from the higher ups to do things

(27:56):
like like burn Black Cultural Meeting center US to the ground,
or to wire tap or sabotage or drum up false
charges against them. So those facts remain, you know, the facts,
but they do come from a political place, and that
someone in a place of power is is setting that
machinery into motion for sure. And will continue our conversation

(28:21):
after a word from our sponsor and we're back. Let's
let's talk about the militarization of police forces within the
United States, because this is something we've talked about before
a little bit. It is incredible to see the show

(28:42):
of force from police departments when there are protests, even
if there is civil disobedience going on as part of
that protest, it's not any action that you would need
literally a military force to be there. So I mean
two recent examples. I organized a march here and Athens
of about two thousand people on May thirty one that

(29:03):
was peaceful. In fact, there was two protests going on,
and we were able to march the city and merge
them and continue in our you know route, shutting down
downtown together, and it was really moving the way that
people came together UH to listen to black folks come
up and speak about their experience of racism, to speak
to the crowd about policy next steps. UM. But then

(29:27):
at one point in the protest UM a number of
men armed with UM A K s and stuff like
that showed up in Hawaiian shirts UH and kind of
put everybody on edge. So we decided to disband the
rally at that point and send everyone on their way. Now,
a couple of hundred people remained downtown through the evening

(29:48):
peacefully occupying the main square, and the mayor set a
curfew to try to send people home around nine Around midnight,
the police decided to use tear gas and be your
bean backgrounds to uh disperse the crowd, and ended up
arresting nineteen people. In their subsequent police report, they identified

(30:09):
these protesters as um booloo. Though these are all friends
of mine that are organized at the community, who lived
here for years and who were you know, peacefully occupying
this square. But this intel about you know, far right
groups are Antifa infiltrating these peaceful gatherings, to do harm

(30:33):
to our community, to do property, damage to life. Fires
was used as a pretext to bring in the National Guard.
For the following weekend, we had thousands of troops and
police people stationed on top buildings and riding down the
streets and tanks while another people gathered peacefully in the street.

(30:53):
Once again. And so, I mean we've seen that equipping
are are are police department with weapons of of you
know that they want to say that are used to
keep their peace. But like things like tear gas like
are outlawed in the Geneva Convention. Like it, it's almost
like it gives them a reason to look for an

(31:16):
excuse to use us on folks. They want to see
us as the boogeyman. They want to see us as
uh the boogaloo boys, when in fact we're just peacefully
occupying a square. It's somewhat in the logic of the
way they operate that, like civilians are just enemy combatants
that need to be quelled by force, uh if possible.

(31:37):
And so I've seen the way that this military militarizision
has um played out, you know, in a small town
like Athens, and I can't imagine in larger cities and
municipalities how that must feel to be occupied by this
military force and under these threats of of UM violence
from the stain Ben. In our previous episode on agent provocateurs,

(32:03):
we touched briefly on the idea of this far right movement,
the Boogaloos, and you had said, oh, this was worth
an episode in itself. Could you talk a little bit
about what that is, what you what your research has
shown you on what this group is? And is it
a thing? Is it like this kind of specter like
Antifa that's sort of used and thrown around to sort
of give a face to this like emminent threat or

(32:24):
is it like a real thing. That's an interesting question.
I think that's when we would we should we should
pose to everyone here because um, you know, link wise
you brought up that phrase, the boogaloo boys, right, Uh,
this this phrase is UM. It's found its way into media,
It's found its way into narrative. You can find them

(32:46):
portrayed as UH far alt rights agitators who are who
are seeking to UM escalate a protest. You can see
it's weird. It's almost like anonymous because UH membership is
defined by describing oneself as anonymous or describing oneself as boogaloo.

(33:07):
There's no like club or authorization process. You don't have
to send you a membership. It's it's like um. As
far as the political leanings, it's kind of all over
the map. It can go from libertarians to actually like
far left people to you know, straight up neo Nazi

(33:28):
types can be in it um pretty much. The term
boogaloo is actually is actually related to hip hop in
away Um the movie Breaking Back in the Day, Breaking
Part two, the Electric Boogaloo was the name of the
sequel to Breaking, So their whole entire, like the thing

(33:49):
is that there's gonna be a second civil war, so
it's like Civil War two Electric Boogaloo. That's the Boogaloo boys. So, like,
you know, depending whatever side that they're on, whether you
know it's like left this boogal loose or right boogal loose,
they're pretty much all preparing to go to war with
the government and to incite that in some way. So

(34:11):
a massive mass protest that's engulfing the entire country. It's
kind of like the perfect situation for like groups of
that nature, which is one of the things that makes
it tricky because on one end, yeah, definitely, the authorities
are going to try to discredit the protests however they can,
but they damn sure just arrested one of the Boogaloo

(34:31):
boys for like spraying up some cops today. That was
today with like a with like a homemade machine gun
pipe bombs. So but my thing that is, like I
hear that name and I hear that association with that
that film, which is you know, a part it is,
like you like that kind of breakdancing culture is like
a big part of like hip hop culture and black culture,

(34:53):
and it seems to me to be like a far
right white group appropriating that term, which makes me think
it's inherently racist. They're looking for like a race war,
but I'm hearing that it's more anti government that it's
anti black or like anti it's it's I mean, there's
definitely black bugaloos and there's there's that. So again, it

(35:14):
all depends, like you know, you could be in a
situation to where you have one group of Buggaloos and
they see another group of Boogaloose and they're like, oh,
those guys are sucking Nazis, you know what I mean,
And they're having that sort of conflicts amongst each other.
So it's like Antifa, it's like not really an organization,
is more of a like idea and philosophy. So it's

(35:35):
it's just it's harder to classify exactly what it is
and what they want. Just from my from my understanding
of it, if you were to get like ten buggaloos
in a room, eight of them are pretty much just
cause players, you know what I mean, and like two
of them like have some like extremists like the other

(35:57):
the other guys like think, oh man, yeah, like we're
Hawaiian shirts and we have tactical vests on this is
this is cool? Like you know, so yeah, that's that's
the thing. That's what I think makes it so um
easy for mainstream media narrative controllers because if you have
a group that can just you know, self appoint a

(36:17):
group that internally disagrees on a great many things, then
you can make that phrase a thought terminating cliche like
who okay, thankfully you know we've made this explicit so
I can say it plainly. Who the funk would have
thought in twenty that being against fascism is a bad thing?
Like say it? Please say? I know? Motherfucker's who loosely

(36:43):
called it like I'm in I'm in Antifa, blah blah.
Like all the people in Antifa couldn't fill up a
fucking civic center in most cities. So like the fact
that it's being dubbed some great threat, I mean, you
know it's You don't even have to say that it's
a bullshit to just know that it's bullsh it, you
know what I mean. Like, you can't name any deaths
that have been caused by anybody who is in Antifa,

(37:05):
but you can name a hell of a lot of
people that neo Nazis and right wingers have killed. So
there's black men and women getting hung from trees all
across this country right now, and who's who's doing that
and ain't Antifa. And one of those one of those
murders was I think initially somehow rule this suicide. Yeah,

(37:29):
I've had kind of information overload and haven't learned a
lot about this other than I'm aware that this is happening,
and I, you know, myself, have gotten some threasts of
lynching recently on the internet and so like that definitely
makes me feel a little afraid to know that this
is happening actually in other places, Uh, so maybe I
should look into what happened and uh get some home

(37:52):
security system. We're just talking the other day about getting
like a tear gas gun or something. At least I was, yeah,
kevlars leaves to fend off NiFe attacks. Uh, borrowing a
friend's dog, big old German shepherd to hang out in
the house. I have a personal security team of folks
to show up if that's anything. We can joke about

(38:15):
all this stuff, and it's almost like you do it
to keep from like going insane or just completely depressed.
But it's like, this is real. These threats are real,
like and it's more prevalent now and more obvious now
than I think it's maybe ever been. And you know,
I mean, I I don't want to be a down
or anything, but like, I mean, how can you not.
But like, for example, the comments section on your page

(38:38):
on Apple Podcasts for the show, like it's as it's
got like almost a thousand reviews, and it's got as
many one star reviews, it has five star reviews and
about and nothing in between. And all the people the
people that right text and this is true of any
podcast reviews for the most part, people that actually take
the time to you know, rate and review there, and

(39:00):
we want people to rate and view them if you
like it and give positive feedback, and if you don't
want to give negative feedback, make it constructive at the
very least. But this stuff that we're seeing here is
not constructive. It's literally saying like I'll buy you a
ticket back to Africa. Or there was some stuff we
actually got like taken off because it was outright threatening
like it it it cited uh like you know, said

(39:21):
like keep hiding joggers or something like that, and it
was like referring to the shooting that took place in Brunswick. Um,
the mon Areverrey and we we got it taken off. Yeah.
So but all I'm saying is like I haven't read that.
I haven't read our comments section yet. These people exist,
don't don't bother. I just wouldn't. It's it's not worth

(39:45):
the pain and the stress and just seeing out whatever.
It just makes you kind of sad about people, and
you know the state of people's minds and how can
people think like this? Um, but these people are real
and then these extreme views are real, and I you know,
it's just something that you have to be aware of.
And you have to kind of guard against like with
maybe with tear gas cannons at your door or whatever.

(40:08):
I am, I don't know. I mean that's the direction
that we're heading, I guess. I mean, if the police
are militarized, like, what's the as private citizens, what's the
big old deal if we you know, I mean, my
my number one issue in all of this is just
like for me, it's it's hard to think about anything

(40:29):
in any sort of context that doesn't involve like the
cult of Trump. And I know you guys were trying
to like keep it, you know, not like make it
to like political, but I mean, it's just just like
every aspect of the situation that we're in, you know,
I just think people need to realize that there is
a literal death cult that's numbered in millions of people

(40:53):
that like live in the country amongst us, you know
what I mean. And I just don't I just foresee
in the next few months Trump doing something ridiculously insane
and having way more people than there should be following
what he does. And that's what's gotten. That's what keeps

(41:13):
me up at night to pick up on that point.
You know, Um, one thing that this the people in
this country have taken for granted. Is you know, any
any student of geopolitics knows this, Uh, the peaceful transfer
of power is it's astonishing that it ever happens with

(41:35):
human beings, just the way we're hardwired. But there there's
a very real danger. I don't want to be alarmist
or whatever or you know, conspiratorial quote, You're not being alarmist.
And like all of this ship hangs on a very
very like thin thread, you know. I mean, I grew
up immersed in African politics of the nineteen eighties and nineties.

(41:57):
The Civil War of Liberia was like the backdrop of
my childhood, so like it's very hard to know about
how that ship went down. And then look at what
the political situation is in America right now. The only
reason that you could think that, oh, that couldn't happen
here is because you're racist and you think, oh, it's
white people, so they wouldn't do that, you know what

(42:20):
I mean. But no, it could get just as fucked
up here here is as it could anywhere else, because
like really, I think like Western democracies really hinge on
like the the veneer of like civility. You know what
I mean. So it's it's it's kind of important that

(42:40):
the Western politicians feel the need to have to lie
to their constituents, you know what, Like once, once you
have politicians that don't give a funk about lying, like wholesale,
whether you know they're lying or not. Once they don't
care about that and they're openly lying, that's when the
like the the body politics should be up in, you know,

(43:04):
it should have like the hairs raised. Is like, Yo,
something's not right, you know, something is like extremely wrong
with this because because tomorrow, if if, if the election happened,
this is this is what I think. And this is
just me being pessimistic. Let's say election night goes through,
and let's say Trump loses and he's like, fuck it,

(43:25):
I'm not going anywhere. I'm just kind of in the
state where it's like I see a lot of people
reading about that on their cell phone and being like, oh,
I gotta go to work, and that'd be in it
is Matt Matt Angry tweets for about an hour, you
know what I'm saying, and then motherfucker's got shipped to do.

(43:47):
Sorry I didn't bring it down. We've wandered we've wandered far,
far away from anything we had. You know, this is
what this is what I would say. I can totally
see why you And sometimes I think that that is
a possibility, like for sure, but just from what's from rhetoric,

(44:08):
from what's happened. Yeah, I have I Yeah, I have to. Honestly,
I have to believe that the transfer of power, no
matter what happens, is going to occur because of I
don't believe that, like it's bunker time for Maddie over here,
Like I'm going in the bunker and my family is

(44:31):
not coming out for months. To what extent do you
when you when you say the peaceful transfer of power, Like,
what do you mean exactly? Because I don't think that
there's gonna I don't think that there's like a situation
to where like the generals are like, yes, we're on
the side of Trump. I don't mean that. I mean
something a lot more smaller scale, but say the same

(44:53):
amount of menace, you know what I mean? Like, I
honestly think that if Donald Trump was getting arrested right
now and as putting on the handcuffs on him and
he was looking in the camera was like burn it down,
burn it all down. I think you'd have like bare
minimum five million people that would be out in the
street shooting, shut up and setting it on fire. That's

(45:13):
what I think. Now I could be paranoid or wrong,
but I don't really don't think. I am. Well, that's
the I guess that's the that's the question, right, So
what is the peaceful transfer power? At the most uh
most basic level, I would say it's the idea that

(45:33):
people vote through our cartoonishly uh imperfect system, which is
I think designed to be cartoonishly inefficient. Uh people vote,
one candidate wins, and then that candidate gets that position
and there's not there's not a war, there's not Trump
saying burn it all down with the handcuffs on. But

(45:57):
but that's something that um, I think we've taken for
granted in this country at times, and it's it's very real, um,
a very vulnerable point for democracies as a structure or
republic or what have you. And this I think the
militarization of police is in step with this. And if
you if we look back at the militarization, right, it

(46:20):
really begins like when when we start seeing swats and
military grade equipment. It really begins with something called the
Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act way back in
n and then in step with that evolution, we also
see widespread defunding of educational systems. So keep people scared,

(46:41):
make sure they're dumb, and don't give them an opportunity
to think critically about why there is a fucking tank
at the corner of the public park. It's scary. Well,
it wasn't a large impetus. Also, wasn't it the Watts riots.
Wasn't that one of the main reasons why SWAT teams

(47:01):
came around. I think it's l A. P D. I
can't remember the officers or the chief's name that actually started.
We talked about our when our old video has been
but specifically they link it to the Watts riots, uh,
and them saying that they were unprepared for it and
they needed basically a military police to handle that. And

(47:24):
then a war on drugs, a war on terrorism, and
then you know, at the end of the day, it's like,
you know, you just have to you know, factor in
like human nature, you know what I'm saying, like so
many to to a lot of police officers, like it's
just a job, like anyody else would have a job.
It shouldn't be, but a lot of them like see

(47:45):
it as just a job. So you've got like this
thing that's a job. And then they're just giving them
all of these toys to play with, and of course
they're gonna abuse that ship and you're like, what else
do they have to do? You know, because obviously that
much military force isn't needed from police, so if they
have it, they're gonna like use it on something. So

(48:08):
it's like, I think the key step is to like
take all that ship away. Have these motherfucker's be like
British cops with like a billy club, just not even
a billy cloud. What do you what do you call
those uh those little those little nightstick things, well, cardboard
ryant shields. I think the I think the proper British
term for them is a truncheon. Truncheon truncheon. Love that

(48:32):
And with that, we're gonna take a quick break to
hear a word from our sponsors, but we'll be right
back and we're back. Hey. And we talked about elections
and just how perhaps poorly designed they are on purpose.

(48:54):
We just had an election here in Georgia not long ago,
and you know, I know all and what up. I
know y'all are in Athens, but specifically here in Fullon County,
we had some serious issues. I wonder if y'all had
been following all of that and just what your thoughts were. Yeah,
that's kind of that. That all again, this is all

(49:17):
just a continuous cycle. But that feeds into what we're
just talking about with the peaceful transfer of power. It's
like there is an entire political party that doesn't care
about democracy at all, you know. So it's just like
there's just certain things that we're really lucky of. Like,
for example, I was watching I forget what the hell

(49:38):
was watching, but that somebody mentioned that it was really
a really good point. But did you guys hear about
how in North Carolina, after the Democrats won the governorship,
the Republican state Senate started changing a bunch of laws
to strip power away from the governor since they were
since they lost power. Well, I mean, that same sort
of thing can happen on a national scale. And that's

(50:00):
what again, this is one of those things that people
don't think about. If the House and the Senate we're
both Republican and Joe Biden. One, you can rest assured
that they would change a bunch of rules to make
the president pretty much powerless until Republican become president again,
and that they're they're doing ship like that, they're doing
the voter suppression with making having them be long lines,

(50:22):
throwing out voter ballots again. It's just it's stuff that
it's like, it's it's weird. It seems like it's just
regular political corruption as usual. But I just have a
sense that it's like something a bit more long term
and nefarious with that sort of thing happening, because that's
those those lines that were going on in Georgia. That's

(50:42):
not that's not anything that anybody's like reading too deep into,
Like you can clearly see it, and it's it's clearly
meant to suppress the vote. So yeah, link wid just
do you have any specific thoughts on it just too
as an elected official. UM, I mean, I find it
very because concerning I think that we already have a

(51:04):
hard time or I have seen like really low voter
turnout in general in the district where I serve, and
the fact that there's already all these impediments in terms
of folks that gotta work, folks who don't have access
to reliable transportation or child care, um, and the ways
that prevents people from voting in the first place. When
you add all these technological impediments of machines that aren't down,

(51:26):
or absentee ballots that don't get sent, and these long lines,
when you know, folks gotta go back to work in
an hour while they're you know, trying to fix the
machines that aren't working. Uh, it does give me a
lot of pause, and uh I feel somewhat powerless to
stop it at the local level, because, like, we can
criticize the folks in control of the Secretary of State's

(51:48):
office all day, but then we're gonna also need them
for stuff. And so to like like retain positive relationships
with these higher ups with whom we don't always agree
is a very weird delicate as to try to maintain
as an elected official. So figuring out how best to
like address this, how best to educate the public about
has secured their votes? Uh, When at the same time,

(52:09):
you can't account for the things that can pop up
on election day, like what we saw with the long
lines in Fulton County in the election that has happened
last Tuesday. My experience was even even worse than the
long lines. I know, Ben and I both I think
Matt was smart and did a mail in ballot or
an absentee ballot and voted early. Lucky he said they
got sent one. You know, Ben and I both waited

(52:34):
in different precincts for quite a while, at least two
hours a piece or so. And mine was in my
old neighborhood where I just moved from, so I still
obviously registered there. And I waited about three hours in line.
And at the end of the line there was this
lady who wasn't there. They were like a c LU
like poll monitors there, and there were poll workers and stuff,
but this lady was just a civilian, and I guess

(52:55):
she had voted her, you know, and came back around
to tell everybody and kind of warn everybody. Hey, it's
not really clear about this second step in the voting process.
You the first part of it is like the old
school way, where you take the little scam card, they
put all your info on it, they give it to you,
put it in the machine, you use your little stylus
and they give you because you know, COVID and they

(53:16):
sanitize it all that you get your own special stylus. Um,
you do it on the screen. But the new step
is it prints you out this page. And a lot
of people were leaving with that page thinking this is
my receipt, and and nobody was stopping them. And this
lady was warning everybody in line, walking along the line,

(53:36):
warning everybody about this. And my one of my best
friends who actually was been my roommate until very very recently, um,
very very politically active guy like canvases like you know,
he was there ahead of me just because we were
both registered in the same spot because that's where we
moved from. And he was about an hour ahead of
me in line, and so I saw him leave with
that paper in his hand, and I caught him and

(53:59):
I said, hey, dude, I think you missed a step.
And he's like, no, no, it's just like it used
to be. This is just a new thing where you
get this receipt. And he's a he's a smart guy. Um,
and he he went back in sure enough came out
without the paper. So I'm not saying it's necessarily malicious,
but the people that were there were not trained to
spot that, and so the guy behind me in line

(54:20):
was reporting it as voter irregularity. A reporter reached out
to me through UH a friend of mine UM, and
then I told her about my friend's story and she
asked to be connected with him. So, you know, it's
that really concerns me, like how many people walked out
of that voting place without their vote counted. So peek
behind the scenes, UM to our to our missied episode.

(54:44):
In our original conversation that we sadly did not record, UH,
we knew coming into today's show that the five of
us would have a wealth of topics. We had one
of the best problems you can have on a podcast,
which is we have so much stuff to explore that
we we knew that we probably wouldn't get to all

(55:07):
of it UH today. But with that being said, you know,
we have to thank you, thank you both link, thank
you Dope for coming on the show today and and
being so generous with your time. We like to end
or draw things to a conclusion by giving our fellow
listeners UH action points, something actionable, some some like direct

(55:33):
takeaway or set of things they can do in the
in the real world. UM. With that mind, wondering, Uh,
you know earlier link what you talked about the importance
of being informed about the local budget, right, Like, you know,
don't just vote every four years when someone is going

(55:54):
to be president. Make your voice heard locally. Do you
think that's a good place for maybe protestors are activists
or would be protesters or activists to start? Yes, absolutely,
finding out who your city council person is and sending
their office an email to see where they stand on things. Uh,
if you can join an organization that has been keeping
tabs on your local elected officials. Uh, there's Athens for everyone.

(56:18):
Here in Athens, there's various political groups and various cities
that have already been doing this work and so to
kid kind of caught up to speed, um, as well
as getting more localized action steps from them about you know,
projects they are already working on. Who the leaders are
in the community to follow, what events are going on.

(56:38):
What you can do to help strengthen your community and
bring more people into the fight. UM. I recommend everyone
trying to join an organization like that, uh if one exists,
or start one if the one doesn't exist in your community.
Thus far um, Yeah, and just educate yourself. Uh, be
willing to be wrong, you know, go stand out there
on the corner by yourself with your Black Lives Matter

(57:00):
sign uh. And if someone throws a milkshake at you,
like if like, you know, take that in stride. Learn
from you know, what tactics are effective and what the
community really needs in terms of solidarity and support. Um.
But definitely getting to know the folks that represent you.
You are their boss. You pay these people salaries. They

(57:22):
must be accountable to you, So hold them accountable, figure
out what that's going on in their office, is what
they're thinking about with their budgets, and develop a relationship.
I second that, Yeah, No, I mean, you know, knowledge
is power, and that's that's kind of my thing is
like just keep yourself informed about whatever it is that

(57:42):
that's important to you. Just make sure that you're you're
read up and up to speed about the things that
they are to know about it. And as well, I
would add to that, read up on history, you know,
learn about the social movements that came before us, learn
about the thinkers that have informed uh uh visionary social
change movements. Looks like Angela Davis, Ruth Wilson, Gilmore, Cornell

(58:05):
West to get a better understanding of like how we
got to this point in terms of progress, as well
as the ideas that are going to lead the way
for what our future needs to look like. So stay
on top of what's going on, but also learned from
the past. Thank you so much for joining us. Tell
everybody the best way to listen to Waiting on Reparations
to find more information about it, and you know, to

(58:26):
find your music as well. So we're on Instagram at
I Heart Reparations, uh, Facebook, waiting on Reparations, Twitter, I
Heart Reparation or something. Don't worry about that. We're not
really on Twitter. I don't even try to find us
on today. But my music can be found at Lingua
Franca dot band camp dot com. That's l I in

(58:47):
Q you a f R A and q A and
uhm Lingua Franca on Instagram or Mariah for Athenes on
Instagram as well. Uh you can find my music at
dope knife dot com or if you just type in
dope Knife anywhere you'll you'll find me my Instagram's Dope

(59:08):
Underscore Knife and um yeah, yeah, I'm out there. Awesome, awesome.
You can also find us if you want to if
you have any questions about this show, you know obviously
right to all of us. Uh, anything we talked about today,
if something sparked you know, something within you, and you
think there's another episode we need to cover because of

(59:29):
everything we've talked about, please write to us. Let us know.
You can find us on Facebook and Instagram, Twitter mostly
conspiracy stuff conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. Uh, and if
you don't want to do any of that, you can
give us a call. Our number is one eight three
three st d W I t K. You are able
to leave electronic voice messages and three minute increments, So um,

(59:53):
either you know, really condense your story down to three
minutes or be ready to call back. But we will
put this together, and I think there's going to be
a future where we're going to have many more opportunities
to discuss some of these amazing voicemails, um that all
of us have access to. And if you don't want
to do any of that, you can just send us
a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at I

(01:00:14):
heeart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You to

(01:00:35):
Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.