Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly
Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. The Quinta de Regalia,
a spectacular and unusual estate in Portugal, was a passion
(00:21):
project for its owner, Antonio Augusto Caravario Montero, and he
is usually described as this rich eccentria coup chose to
use his money building his dream home, which he absolutely did.
But he also was an accomplished naturalist, something that's been
largely ignored until recent years, and he was a philanthropist,
so he seems like an interesting person to talk about. Also,
(00:44):
heads up, Portuguese is a very difficult language for both
of us, and compounding that difficulty, minutes ago we recorded
a podcast that was about Spanish speaking people. So we've
just been seeing very similar looking yes name structures that
(01:06):
are pronounced very differently with Portuguese phonemes. Yeah, Portuguese always
sounds so beautiful when I hear it spoken, and then
I will try to phonetically say the same things and
I'm like, well, no, that was painful and ugly. Yeah,
so bear with us if Portuguese is a leguage you speak.
(01:28):
We know we're bad at it. Yeah, we're doing our best.
We are doing our best. Antonio Augusto Carvagio Montero was
born in eighteen forty eight in Rio de Janeiro to
a very wealthy family. Often Antonio is referred to as
Montero dos Miliois, with milioice meaning millions, but his father
also had that nickname before him. This father, Francisco Montero,
(01:53):
had moved from Lagos Wierra, Portugal, to Brazil when he
was thirteen to try to avoid the future that his
family had planned for him, which was the priesthood. Francisco
married Teresa de Carvallio, whose family had also moved to
Brazil from Portugal, and in the process married into a fortune.
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When Antonio was thirteen, the family moved back to Portugal
and lived in a few places around Lisbon, including a
palace which they acquired when the royal who owned it
went bankrupt. Yeah, there are a lot of very fancy
domiciles getting put up for auction in this story, which
is a little, to my mind reflective of Portugal's kind
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of waxing and waning of various fortunes and political parties.
So Antonio got his degree in law in eighteen seventy
one at the age of twenty two. But he also
had done a healthy amount of studying in other subjects,
and he did quite well in them. He was a
really good scholar. He won honors in his agriculture and
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mineralogy courses, and he learned to speak and write French, German,
Greek and Latin, so much as one speaks Latin fluently.
Two years after receiving his law degree, Carvallio Montero married
Perpetua Augusta Peererra de Medo, and the couple spent the
early years of their marriage back in Brazil, Andtonio is
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said to have made this move so he could make
an entomological study in South America. In eighteen seventy six,
they moved back to Lisbon, where he continued his scientific pursuits.
He joined a number of scientific organizations, including the Royal
Spanish Society of Natural History, the Zoological Acclimatization Society of Paris,
(03:37):
and the Geographical Society of Lisbon, among many others. In
eighteen eighty two, he published a paper on Lepidoptera in
the journal of Mathematical, Physical and Natural Sciences of Lisbon.
In it, he detailed the discovery of a new butterfly
found in the mountain range Sara dea Strela. Throughout his life,
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Carvallo Montero used his ample wealth and his scientific knowledge
to collect all manner of specimens, particularly shells, butterflies and moths.
He was praised for the quality of his specimen preservation
of these specimens that he collected personally, but he also
acquired the collections of other entomologists over the years and
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amassed just a huge assortment of species that he kept
very meticulously. His shell collection totaled more than ten thousand pieces,
and his work in these fields as a collector and
cataloger led to his nomination to the Lisbon Academy of Sciences,
with notes in his recommendation from other scientists that his
efforts had really helped advance the work of others in
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the fields. And in eighteen ninety three Carvio Montero purchased
a large piece of property in CenTra, Portugal known as
Quinta de Regalaira CenTra, which is roughly twenty four kilometers
or fifteen miles northwest of Lisbon had long been the
summer getaway for wealthy inhabitants of por Chico's capital, and
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over the years it had been called all kinds of
romantic names. The Romans had called it the Mountain of
the Moon, and Lord Byron had referred to it as
an Eden in his poem Child Harold's Pilgrimage, one of
Lord Byron's least favorite people. Britain's poet laureate Robert Southey
called it quote the most blessed spot on the whole
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inhabitable globe. Cintra is a picturesque place that sits on
a mountain slope on the north face of the CenTra Mountains,
known and in Portuguese as the Sata da CenTra. The
property that Antonio bought at Centre has a recorded history
that goes back to the sixteen hundreds. It had changed
hands a number of times between the end of the
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seventeenth century and the beginning of the nineteenth century. In
sixteen ninety seven, it was purchased by a man named
Jose Leite. Next, in seventeen fifteen it went to auction
and was bought by Francisco Alberto de Castro, who named
it Quinta ded Tore. It is also sometimes referred to
as Quitta de Castro. During the time that he owned it,
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Castro updated the property by harnessing water supplies from the
mountain springs to give Quita de Torre running water. Then
in eighteen thirty it passed from the Castro family to
Manuel Bernardo Lopez, and then ten years after that, in
eighteen forty, a wealthy heiress Ermelinda Allen, who would become
the Baroness de Regualaire, purchased the property and eventually renamed it.
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She built a massive home and a chapel there. But
then once again, at the end of the nineteenth century,
it went up for auction and that's when Antonio went
after it. And once he had that estate, he also
purchased adjoining parcels of land to expand its footprint. He
acquired all this land because his plan was to build
a beautiful and impressive estate, including a new palace. He
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consulted with an architect named aure Lusseaux on the plans
for his grand design. Carvio Montero had a clear idea
of what he wanted and a checklist of needs for
this estate, and he wanted them all to be built
in a Portuguese Late Gothic style known as Manuelin. Lusseau
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drew up plans based on all of their meetings over
the course of eighteen ninety five and eighteen ninety six,
but his work wasn't quite what Antonio had envisioned. The
two men parted ways, and Carvio Montero sought out a
different designer. He found his collaborator in an Italian architect
and designer named Luigi Manini. Manini, who was the same
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age as Cavallo. Montero, had been an opera set designer
at Teatro la Scala, and he had moved to Lisbon
in eighteen seventy nine, and these two men clicked, and
after Antonio had described his vision to Luigi, the Italian
designer started translating those ideas into plans which were all approved.
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Coming up, we'll talk about the common belief that this
entire project was in support of Antonio's involvement with the
Templar Masons, but first we will pause for a sponsor break.
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It has long been believed that Carvarrio Mantero was very
interested in the Templar Masons. That is, of course, the
Knights Templar, which began in the twelfth century as a
group of warriors who served as protection for Christian pilgrims
en route to the Holy Land. This combination religious and
military force gained a great deal of power and influence
in Europe, including the favor of the Pope, who decreed
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that the Knights Templar were exempt from taxes. This is
obviously a very abbreviated story of them, but over time
the organization became incredibly wealthy and held a lot of
real estate, and after the Crusades, the Knights Templar ran
into a variety of problems, including many of their men
being executed, and they were officially dissolved as an order
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in thirteen twelve, once again on order of the Pope,
but the group persisted in secret, and many rumors of
their activities, holdings, and power have also persisted. For example,
the group is said to possess a number of deeply
significant religious artifacts, like the Holy Grail and the Shroud
of Turin, and this has led to the order being included,
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sometimes obliquely, in pop culture references. The Grail Night, for example,
in Indiana. Jones and the Last Crusade is an indirect reference,
and the Da Vinci Code and National Treasure also reference them.
The Knights Templar have also been intertwined with Freemasonry in
various historical theories and ideas, and sometimes they're called the
Templar Masons, as we mentioned just a moment ago, and
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sometimes in modern parlance. All of these names kind of
get used interchangeably. There are also named variations by region,
and over time. In some discussions of the order, the
concept has and on a less Catholic specific spiritual tone
and one which is inclusive of all Christian denominations and
even non Christians. Additionally, King Denny of Portugal also asked
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for papal approval to create his own religious military to
protect the newly formed kingdom that was after the Knights
Templar were dissolved, and it's said that he really used
his permission to do this to reorg existing Templars that
were in Portugal into a new group under his leadership.
So a lot of folks believe that Carvile Mantero was
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the Templar Mason himself, and there are a lot of
aspects of his grand estate that do seem to back
up that belief. But to be clear, as we're discussing this,
there's not outright evidence. There's like no piece of paper,
no letter mentioning interest or membership. I mean a lot
of times organizations like these were secretive, but you can
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still find some kind of documentation. In this case, there's
lots and lots of imagery and iconography baked into the
design of his palatial home, and people have interpreted that
imagery and iconography as being templar Masonic. That brings us
back to the design and architecture of Quindo di Reglarra.
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This piece of land had been a templar property that
had been donated to the Order by King Alfonso Enriquees,
and Carvio Montero knew this history when he bought it
at that auction. So from eighteen ninety eight to nineteen eleven,
Manini and Carvalio Mantero worked on this massive project. And
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as we just noted, the design of everything that Luigi
Minini created for the estate is full of symbolism and iconography,
and it references both Christian and pagan ideology. For example,
there are eight pointed stars that incorporate what many believe
to be the templar cross. To create four of the points,
as well as a central circle. Some history orians have
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interpreted all of this as representing the eight original templars
and their grand master. Even the layout of the estate
is meant to invoke this idea of ascension, as it
has multiple levels which kind of lead uphill, intending to
offer guests and inhabitants this sort of tangible representation in
a walkable way that represents the search for enlightenment. The
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gardens contain their own surprises. There's a copse of Scandinavian
serpent trees down one garden path that appears to end
at a boulder, but the boulder is reportedly easily moved
with a light push. Doing so reveals two doors. This
leads to the detail of the estate that captures most
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people's attentions and imaginations, and that's the initiation well. This
well is actually two wells, although it's usually referred to
with just a singular name, and this structure is not
designed or intended to collect water, but it's instead built
for a spiritual journey. It's sometimes called an inverted tower,
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which is apt. It has staircases spiraling down the outside
edges of the well, so nine flights of them going
thirty meters into the earth. Each flight is said to
represent one of the nine founders of the Templar order,
and this inverted tower is believed to have been used
in Templar initiations. So the theory is that initiates would
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be blindfolded and brought to the top of this well
that Carvarrio Montero had designed, and then they would be
set upon its downward spiral staircase path. As one of
these people traversed the nine flights down, he would be
holding a sword close to his chest, and upon reaching
the bottom of the well, the initiate would then enter
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into a dark labyrinth, and then the initiate would have
to find his way out of the subterranean labyrinth. There
are multiple paths you can take, and he would have
to find his way out of them and into the light,
and then proceed to the nearby chapel to officially become
part of the brotherhood. And the chapel, which was redone
by Manini, like many other places on the estate, includes
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a number of Templar crosses in its decoration, and one
section of the exit of this labyrinth features stepping stones
that lead across a pool of water that is fed
by a waterfall fountain. It's quite beautiful, but it's said
to represent the steps of Jesus walking on the water.
So this whole process of going down the inverted tower
and through the labyrinth and then out into the light
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to the chapel is said, like the layout itself to
have represented the passage through darkness into the light of enlightenment.
But here's the thing, this all sounds super cool. We
don't know for sure if it was ever used in
this way, even if that was what Antonio had intended
for it. Yeah, those inverted towers, like they remind me
(15:00):
of stepwells that have been a method of cooling the
air in very hot places, right, Like that's and I'm like,
maybe this is very if so he went the extra
distance to make it look really cool and ornate, Yeah, okay.
In addition to decor elements that are believed to be
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references to the templars, there are also references to the
epic poem Luciids, written by Luis de Camoige and published
in fifteen seventy two. The narrative begins with the voyage
of Vasco da Gama and tells the story of Portugal
and its history. The entire design aesthetic incorporates a wide
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range of ideology and visual form, always seeming to suggest
a cohesive worldview that offers spiritual insight. In addition to Christian,
pagan and templar symbology, they are also visual references to
ancient Egypt and the writings of Dante's Inferno. But the
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features and buildings that Quinta de Regulaira also reflect Carvio
Manterro's love of nature. In some cases there are clear
flights of fancy, as is the case of the Beast Gary,
which is populated by statues of all kinds of hybrid animals.
But in other parts of the property there's more practicality,
like there's a spacious greenhouse constructed so that orchids could
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be grown on the property. The Gothic Revival style that's
in play throughout all of the buildings gives them this
almost fairy tale quality. There are within some of them
quaint murals showing seventeenth century lords and ladies at leisure.
There are grottos and caves to get lost in. There
is carved marble absolutely everywhere, and all of this incredible
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architecture is surrounded by four hectares. That's a little less
than ten acres of land which has been made into
a massive part with its own gardens and forests and
lakes and gazebos and walking paths. When you look at
the palace from the front of it, you can see
the chapel, which is very impressive in its own right
off to the left. But what's more striking is the
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way all of this sits in its own lush landscape.
The palace is positively surrounded by greenery of varying heights,
to the point that from some angles it almost looks
like it's dripping with plants, although then if you have
the straight on view, the facade looks clean. Luigi Manini
designed all these spaces in addition to his work on
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the palace and the estate at Cintra. Massive as it was,
was not his only project he had going on at
the time. He was simultaneously working on the South Carlos
National Theater in Lisbon. Some historians suggest that the theatrical
nature of Quinta de Regualaira is in part due to
the fact that Menini was also really deeply involved in
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working on a theater at the same time, but really,
his resume had already been full of similarly styled projects,
although none of them so grand in scale and opulence
as his work with Carvile Montero. In just a moment,
we're going to talk about some of the other things
that were happening in Antonio's life besides his palace construction
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in the first decade of the nineteen hundreds. But first
we'll hear from the sponsors that keep stuff you missed
in history class going. Although this grand estate we've been
describing is the thing that Carvario Montero is most known
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for today, he was in the news for other reasons
and also had additional personal projects going on while it
was being constructed. For example, in February nineteen oh five,
a story ran in papers in the US and Europe
about a very unique watch. That story read quote the
firm of Leroy and Coe, who presented a miniature watch
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to Miss Roosevelt, have just finished a still more remarkable watch,
sold for four thousand dollars. It has two dials, one
showing the time and phases of the moon, the date
for four hundred years, the months, seasons, solstices, and equinoxes.
There is a chronograph for scientific observations, a reminder of
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the time of winding up, and indications of the means
solar time and equation of time. There is also a thermometer, hygrometer,
aneroid barometer, the hours of sunrise and sunset, the night sky,
or firmament, et cetera. Artistically, the watch is also a masterpiece,
the case representing the fates and time. The watch has
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been made to satisfy Count de Carvalio Montero of Lisbon
and Rio Digenio, Brazil, and has occupied the leisure of m. Juneaude,
the maker for seven years. So that watch, incidentally is real.
It's one that you can today see photographs of. It
was featured in a number of newspapers in the US
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and Europe in nineteen fifty eight, when it became part
of the collection of a museum in Besensent, France, which
sits on the French border with Switzerland. While that watch
was being worked on, Carvio Montero was also corresponding with
Philagen Weitzmann, a Belgian ornithologist, who wanted the millionaire's help
with something. This actually ties them to our prior episode
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on how the European naturalist community learned about the o'capi episode.
I think is from twenty twenty two. This had just
come to the attention of non Africans a few years
prior to this exchange of correspondence. In nineteen oh one.
Weitzmann's writing suggests that an o'copy specimen could be procured
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from the Belgian Congo for a zoological museum in Lisbon
if Carvio Montero were to use his money and influence
to gain the favor of a fish in Congo. And
it seems that Carbio Manterro did try to get a
specimen for the Lisbon Zoological Society, but that was unsuccessful.
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This is a story which has only come to light
in recent years, and as an article in National Geographic
Portugal from twenty twenty two points out work being done
by the Culture CenTra Foundation to piece together more of
Carbio Materro's story is shifting his historical identity away from
one of just a wealthy eccentric with little connection to
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reality to just a more nuanced picture that shows his
interests in things like naturalism and entomology. There's a really
interesting photograph in that article that shows up in another
Portuguese language biography of him, and it's like him in
front of a bunch of entomological tools and equipment, but
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all of the commentary on the picture is always like
you could tell he's rich because nobody had all this stuff.
So he was definitely leveraging his fortune to help him
in these pursuits. But he wasn't just like a rich
guy blowing money on weird things. This effort to bring Diocopi,
which was considered an important specimen to Portugal, was not
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the only time that Antonio Carvalio Montero used his money
for philanthropy or the betterment of the greater good. He
founded garden spaces, and he worked with others to create
a fund to offer assistance to tuberculosis patients, as well
as work on ways to fight it. The name Carvalio
Montero is given to various streets and public spaces in
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both Brazil and Portugal, in part because of the philanthropy
that he did. Just as Antonio's house was being completed,
he faced new challenges in his country's shifting politics. He
had been a devoted supporter of the monarchy, but as
far back as eighteen eighty nine, the monarchy had struggled
with anti monarchy sentiment. This grew over the years that
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followed as the monarchy made decisions that made it appear weak,
like capitulating to demands from Britain that Portuguese colonial holdings
in Africa be handed over to them. Portugal acquiesced to
this request because it owed its ally Britain a lot
of money. Yeah, this is also we will once again
caveat like a pretty high level look at what was
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going on in Portugal politically at this time. But anger
and dissatisfaction with the monarchy continued, and in nineteen oh eight,
King Carlos the First was assassinated, as was his son
Louis Philippe. His other son, Manuel the Second became king,
and he tried to make some changes that would address
some of the people's concerns and alleviate some of the
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tension in the country. But people really wanted Portugal to
just cut its ties with Britain. Most citizens felt that
Britain had manipulated Portugal and they wanted nothing more to
do with their alliance. Manuel the second his advisers felt
that cutting off their relationship with Britain would weaken the
country more than fortify it. Plus there was also still
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that money problem. The two years after Carlos the First
was killed were fraught and filled with violence, and ultimately,
Manuel the Second fled to Britain and Portugal was declared
a republic. All of this was presumably difficult for Antonio
Carvio Mantero. We know he continued to believe that the
monarchy should be reinstated because he was arrested in nineteen
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thirteen for suspected involvement in a plot to kill Republican
politician Alfonso Costa Carveo. Mattero was accused of sheltering a
participant in this plot. This is an accusation that he
met with absolute outrage. He was openly Royalist, but he
never admitted to having been involved in the murder plot,
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and he was released several weeks after his arrest. Nineteen
thirteen continued to be difficult for Antonio, though wife Perpetua Augusta,
the mother of his two children, died on Christmas Day
that year, and the next several years of his life
are not very well documented. We know only that he
lived at his estate during them, and then in the
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autumn of nineteen twenty he had a fall, and he
didn't really recover from it. He died at home on
October twenty fourth that year. After Antonio died, his heirs
were left with his impressive but odd estate, and they
reportedly really didn't care for it. They sold his papers
and his personal effects, and then they left the building vacant.
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Over time, it fell into disrepair, and then in nineteen
forty seven, Carvio Montero's airs were bankrupt. They sold the
property to try to make some money. It was purchased
by Valdemar Doret and he had it restored. In nineteen
eighty seven, the Quinta de Regallera was once again up
for sale. The Gothic revival home had been valued by
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Sotheby's at three point seven eight million dollar. They also
said that it was priceless, but that was the number
they were willing to put on it, and it's unclear
how this amount actually compared to the cost of building it,
as Carvaria Monteo never recorded what he had spent on construction,
decor and landscaping, or if he did, those documents were
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no longer available. Most press about the house being for
sale this time around mentioned that a lot of people
in the area were hurrying to visit it before it
might be entirely closed off, so presumably at that time
the private owners allowed people to visit and walk the grounds.
At that point, no one was living in the palace itself,
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but a member of the Dore family was living in
what had been the estate's stables, which had been converted
into living quarters. The other thing that the press really
built up about Carvio Montero's estate was that it was
a spooky, possibly haunted affair. It's written about in ways
that sound almost similar to all the lore around the
(27:01):
Winchester Mystery House. One write up noted quote behind its
ornate facade, Regularra reveals an uncommon feast of esoteric symbols,
hidden passages, and secret underground chapels where the rights of
the condemned fourteenth century knights templars were believed to have
been performed. That same ride Up goes Onto lists some
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of the odd architectural features of the house. It quotes
Fernando Dorra, one of Aldemar Dorre's heirs. Dorray told journalists
that he believed that carvill Mantero intended for the house
to be both his paradise on earth and the place
he would return to after his death, pointing out a
high tower that stands in the middle of the garden
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but which has no access points to get in. Locals
had claimed to have seen the ghost of its prior
owner in the tower during full moons. At the time,
the Doray family mentioned that a Japanese firm was interested
in the property and hoped that was who it would
be sold to. That deal did come to pass, but
the fears of the locals were also realized. The Aoki Corporation,
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which was a construction company, closed the site to visitors.
Aoki may have intended to renovate and reopen the property,
but they never did, likely due to finance issues they
were facing at the time. Yeah, they eat not too
long after. In the decade that followed, got kind of
subsumed into another big conglomerate because of their finance problems.
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In nineteen ninety five, the cultural landscape of CenTra became
a UNESCO World Heritage Site. UNESCO describes the significance of
this site in part as follows quote. In the nineteenth century,
CenTra became the first center of European Romantic architecture. Ferdinand
the second turned a ruined monastery into a castle, where
this new sensitivity was displayed in the use of Gothic, Egyptian,
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Moorish and Renaissance elements, and in the creation of a
park blending local and exotic species of trees. Other fine
dwellings built along the same lines in the surrounding Seta
created a unique combination of parks and gardens which influenced
the development of landscape architecture throughout Europe. This cultural landscape
is an exceptional mixture of natural and cultural sites within
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a distinct framework. Seen from a distance, it gives the
impression of an essentially natural landscape that is distinct from
its surroundings, a small chain of forested granite mountains rising
over the hilly rural landscape. When seen from closer at hand,
the Seta reveals a surprisingly rich cultural evidence, spanning over
several centuries of Portugal's history, and of course, as part
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of the makeup of CenTra, the Quinta de Regalaira is
part of the World Heritage Site. After the UNESCO listing,
the CenTra Town Council acquired Quinta di Rigulaira from Aoki
and started its own restoration of the property. In nineteen
ninety eight. It was open to the public and quickly
became a popular tourist destination. Visitors can walk the path
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of the initiation well the caves at the bottom are
now illuminated. It's considered by Portugal to be a public
interest property and it's planned to remain open in perpetuity,
charging a small fee to visitors, and people do flock there.
Prior to the start of the COVID nineteen pandemic, the
estate received more than one million visitors a year. We
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don't have numbers that Holly has been able to find
for sort of post twenty nineteen, twenty twenty years, but
it sure is on my list now. Yeah. Yeah, it's
really pretty. I really really I'm into it. I have
so many thoughts about all of the things, the freemasonry,
the decor, all of it. I also have listener mail. Yeah,
(30:53):
this listener mail is from our listener Erica, and it
is about our VidCon Quizzling episode. Erica writes, I was
ex I did to listen to the episode you did
last week on vidcom Quizzling, even though it's not a
happy topic, because it connected both to my growing up
Norwegian American we love stories of Norwegian resistance to the
Nazis and my dissertation which deal with Norwegian American identity
(31:15):
in the United States. One part of my dissertation focused
on Sons of Norway, a Norwegian American fraternal society. I
got to read through lots of great archival material, including
a set of amazing pamphlets called Why Sons of Norway.
The nineteen forty two pamphlet had a new section called
History's Blackest Chapter about the Nazi invasion of Norway and
(31:38):
did a lot of work to portray Norwegians as uniformly
hating the Nazis. The author of the pamphlet refused to
mention Quizzling by name, only saying about him quote, what
may be termed a fifth column was a very small group,
which in reality would have been a minor nuisance if
there had been no Nazi invasion. In fact, there may
(31:59):
not even have been that group if it were not
for one man, whose name we refrain from mentioning because
that very name has become an international opprobrium. This is
on page three of that pamphlet. It was really interesting
to hear more about Quisling's life, and it was an
interesting chance for me to go back and think about
how Norwegian Americans at least have been invested in keeping
(32:19):
his story a footnote almost from the very start, thanks
to the wonderful work you do bringing the lesser known
parts of history to a wide audience. Best Erica, this
is a very cool piece of information. I do think
this is like one of those great examples of very
carefully selecting narrative information, because what this pamphlet says is
(32:45):
not wrong. There wasn't a lot of support for Quizzling.
That was part of why it all fell apart, but
there was enough that he got in, so it's interesting.
I super appreciate this little bit of additional perspective on
the whole thing. So thank you, Erica. That sounds amazing
your work in this effort. If you would like to
(33:07):
write to us with interesting tidbits, you can do that,
or even non interesting tidbits, even you know, as we
always say, animal pictures welcome here. You could do that
at History podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. You can also
subscribe to the podcast Easiest Pie on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you
(33:31):
missed in history class is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.