February 2, 2024 • 29 mins
Holly and Tracy discuss van Dyck's personal life and historical photography. They also discuss mammogram science and try to reassure listeners about the experience.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and
I'm Tracy ve Wilson. We talked about Anthony Van Dyke
this week.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, who. As I mentioned at the end of the episode, I.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Probably drove my friends crazy because I have a really
beautiful book of a lot of his pieces, and I
would just take a picture on my phone and send
it to them and be like, can.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You believe because they're so good.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I mean, I'm just my mind boggles at his skill.
I am really fascinated by the sort of cagey information
we have.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
About his family situation.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, because I really do think when you put all
the pieces together, particularly the revelation that he had a
secret daughter that his sister was raising, then him going
so hard to fight his brothers in law over the
family fortune, starts to make a lot of sense. I mean,
(01:10):
he may have just done it for the benefit of
his siblings, but also when you think about like, oh,
one of those siblings was raising his kid, and it's like, ah,
now I see, yeah, which is pretty fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
All of that.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I mean, I think he was this is a guess
this is my speculation. I think he was purposely kind
of kg about his travels and whatnot for that very reason.
No one ever knew about this kid, apparently until his will.
So yeah, sneaky. I have a note in my notes
(01:50):
that says the timeline of European art Caravagio. You're like,
what did I mean? What I mean their lives overlapped? Yeah,
but I don't I wrote this outline long enough ago,
like we've been kind of juggling some recording stuff because
of our schedules and I and some problems with you know,
(02:12):
just technical issues, and I don't remember what that note
was about. It was so crystal clear to me then,
but there you go. Yeah, yeah, I do remember is
my note about historical portraits, Because okay, every once in
a while there is a trend in our modern lives
where like a portrait studio will pop up or an
(02:33):
existing studio will do an offer for a little while
where they do old timey photography were like you can
go get your picture taken and it looks like you're
in the wild West or you are in Victorian London
or whatever. And now, of course you know with photoshop
and like filter and filters. Yeah, and like, I don't
even want to get into the AI situation. You can
(02:56):
do that all the time, but his historical portraits kind
of made me think of that. Like people were like, no,
I want it to be me, but I want to
look like Venus.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I'm like, ah, that's an idea. I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So many things in this episode reminds me of our
episode on Mickle Nolatier. Yeah, who they were contemporaries, but
stuff like a lack of agreement about how to say
her name because it sort of depends on whether you
are being more French or more Dutch. And the part
about working as a professional artist while not being a
(03:37):
member of the guild.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, like that.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think that was something that I feel like, if
I'm remembering correctly, her brother had been working as a
professional painter without being in the guild. And then of
course just the the overlap of when and where when
and where they lived.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, I am. I wish we had more info on
his inner life, Yeah, because other than like his notes
about you know, finding pieces of art really beautiful or whatever,
we don't have, to the best of my knowledge, any
kind of like journals or discussions that are from his
(04:20):
point of view of his thoughts, and I feel like
he had to have been such an interesting character to
be down. I also think like he might be a
history crush. He's so handsome in those later self portraits.
I just think he's cute as pie. And he was apparently,
you know, right up until the point where he got
(04:40):
married right in his forties, like a womanizer, so clearly
like he had charm and appeal and charisma. The idea
pretty recently introduced that we have completely misunderstood his relationship
with Rubens is also fascinating to me, right, Like we
you and I see this all the time. I think
anybody who any kind of like history research regularly does,
(05:02):
where like there is a version of a story that
gets written, or a version of a biography or whatever
that gets written, sometimes pretty close to when the actual
events happened, and the default, because there aren't necessarily other sources,
is to take that as the truth. Yeah, but like
we don't know, right right, Yeah, There's That's something that
(05:27):
I find really interesting in the field of history in
general and just doing the show, like how how the
history that is written about a subject evolves over time
and that's normal.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
YEA.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Like sometimes folks who maybe I mean, I'm not I'm
not judging anybody's knowledge, Like, but folks who you know,
do not have a sense of like what the field
of history does. Will learn that there is a biography
that has sort of a new interpretation of something worked,
(06:01):
and we'll imagine that there's something like wrong with that
when really like that. That's how the whole field of
history works. It's the whole process of evaluating and interpreting
the sources that we have about something. And sometimes there
are new sources that are discovered, but other times it
(06:23):
is more that you know, the next historian to really
take a thorough look at something is looking at it
from a different perspective, with different you know, parts of
their own education and worldview and all of that, and
can interpret something a bit differently than before. Yeah, this
is why I really like that Christopher White biography that
(06:45):
we mentioned a couple times in the episode. It's fairly recent, right,
it's twenty twenty one, I believe. And he's really the
first one to point out like there isn't really any
evidence of some kind of dramatic fight between the two
of them, right, But it makes the I mean, if
you want to apply Okham's razor see how I did
(07:05):
that looped around to another old podcast subject, it makes
more logical sense that, like they just weren't in the
same place at the same time, they weren't having the
same life trajectory, since you know, Rubens had this other
career and a family that needed his time and attention.
(07:26):
You know, it just makes and he was clearly like
passing commissions off to Van Dyck, right right, So whether
or not you buy the idea that like, oh the portraits,
because those were not as well regarded as real art,
he's still making sure the guy's get in the living,
(07:46):
you know what I mean it well, and that like
that was something that was really interesting to me. There
have always been forms of art or literature or whatever
that were viewed as the real deal, while others were
viewed as like commercial or not worthy of scholarly attention.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
And like, like.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
The literature department that I studied in in college, I
loved so many things about it was snobby in terms
of like what was considered okay to study and what
was serious literature and what was not.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So I find this.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Whole idea of like the portraiture was thought of as
commercial and not art art really interesting, and it also
just makes me curious about how, like if this really
was something that was playing into his mind at all,
Like how did he feel about it?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Was he like, I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Making plenty of money, Like what's your goal with your art?
Is it to be able to support yourself or is
it to you know, make great art?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Or is it both? Like what is it? And I
don't do that?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Just I kept getting distracted by those thoughts while we
were talking about.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
That part of his work.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, and I mean, he was painting other things, but
he really became so known for his portraits. And I
almost think, right, that is a unique opportunity. Right at
a time when art art, for lack of a better phrase,
was glutted with people doing religious imagery, historical imagery, et cetera,
(09:24):
he elevated portraiture in a way that made everybody excited
about portraits. Right, So, like he kind of took that opportunity,
whether he intended to or not, of like the lesser
regarded part of the art world and made it something that,
you know, really transcended all of the others and makes
(09:45):
it so interesting. It really to me, seems like I
wish this is another use of our imaginary time machine.
I would love to go to England and see the
unveiling of like his or Rubens's very naturalistic portraits in
a world where mannerism had been like it for a while,
(10:05):
because it is such a gear shift of like those
very stiff, surreal, slightly surreal looking portraits of people that,
like you know, almost vibe to me the way like
the characters on a deck of playing cards look right
like they're very stiff and not quite natural, and they're
(10:26):
often very beautiful, but there they don't feel like real life,
whereas then you have these portraits that often look like photographs,
and like, how was that being perceived? Obviously a lot
of people in England were excited about it, but I'm
sure there were people that were like.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
What is this?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
That's what people look like? I see that all the time.
I don't want it en up painting. I don't know.
I'm sure there were detractors of that nature. But I
love it all. I love it all. I could really
look at his stuff all the time, and now I've
got it in my head that I need to do
like a Van museum crawl and just plan maybe multiple
trips to go places where they have some of his
(11:06):
best things. But I think that sounds great with that
sunflower portrait you can only see in a book, Yeah,
unless it gets loaned out one day, which I don't
think happens very often.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
But I don't know. I haven't tracked it.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Right anyway, Anthony Van Dyke, you sneaky little minx, your
secret families and your unclear impetus for doing various things right,
I don't even care. Just keep showing me the paintings.
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
We talked about mammograms this week. We sure did.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
One thing I did want to say before we start
is the most recent email that we got asking for
an episode on mammograms. The person he wrote in expressed
feeling very afraid about the idea of eventually needing to
get a mammogram because of all the horror stories shared.
And so I just want to take a minute, and
(12:08):
I want to acknowledge first I am not having to
deal with medical racism or fat phobia or transphobia, or
like I'm a white woman in a major metropolitan area
who has insurance. So I recognize that I'm starting like
having the easiest access to getting a mammogram. But I
(12:31):
have been getting mammograms since I think twenty thirteen, which
is I think earlier that at this point anyone record
recommend doing so. I think I was thirty eight. Because
my mom has had a breastpater, I would say it's
not a comfortable experience. There is squeezing of the breasts. Yes,
(12:53):
every single person who has ever conducted a mammogram for me,
which at this point has been at three different medical
centers in Atlanta and in like the Boston area, every
single person has been compassionate and efficient and in terms
of like having to go back this time, very reassuring.
(13:16):
It is clear that everybody knows that, like getting a
mammogram is not the funnest thing, and everybody has just
tried to get me in and out as efficiently and
with the least discomfort possible. Yes, I would rather have
twenty five mammograms than one set of dental X rays.
(13:40):
Oh yeah, because dental X rays make me gag and
I find it embarrassing, and also would rather have a
whole bunch of paps than dental X rays. But yeah,
I just I feel like people hear the horror stories,
and I just of all the things that I could
(14:02):
go through in a medical context, I am more stressed
out about driving to the mammogram than I am the
mammogram itself. This most recent time, we have one car
in our household and we accidentally double booked the car.
Patrick was going to be out of town with the
car and the If you live in the Boston area,
(14:23):
you know the tea has been incredibly broken lately, and
I did not trust a ride share service to get
me there on time either, So I literally stayed in
a hotel near the medical center the night before so
that I would not have to deal with that stress
in the morning, which again, I know, having money to
(14:43):
spend on a random hotel night is a privilege, but
it made it so much easier.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, I will say too, And I wonder if this
is your experience, because I have been getting mammograms for
around the same amount of time you have. I am
a large, busted woman, But I will say in that
decade a little over, because I just had one very recently,
(15:12):
I feel like it has gotten less and less uncomfortable
as imaging technology has gotten more and more fine tuned.
For to me, the flattening and extruding aspect of it
used to be way more painful than it is now. Yeah,
now it's like it's not comfortable. I don't want to
hang out there. But like I wasn't like, oh, I
just have to gut it out through this. I was like, okay.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I think the first mamogram that I ever got was
a digital mammogram, but it was not the three D
mammogram that they offer where I am now, which I
do feel like there's less compression involved in that than
there was the first time I got one, which again
I think was in something like twenty thirteen, and I'm
(15:55):
usually in and out, in and out of there in minutes, Yeah,
longer sitting in the waiting room than like actually back there.
When I had to go back up for a follow up,
there was more compression involved than just for a screening
mamogram because they got to get a closer look at it,
(16:15):
and then I also had an ultrasound and everything was fine.
But like that that, I think the like the going
back the diagnostic mammogram was I would say, more uncomfortable,
but still like not anything that I would describe to
anybody as like the worst thing I know everybody's body's difference, right,
(16:40):
But I also feel like if the if you have
heard about mammograms from folks that were getting them in
the eighties or nineties, probably way more uncomfortable than now.
I feel like some of this, in the weirdest way
come along on this journey with me relates to kind
of this we were talking about when we were talking
(17:03):
about Anthony van Dyke, that there's one version of the
story of his relationship with Rubens that has impacted the
way we have perceived that relationship forever.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Similarly, in the eighties there was a huge, I don't
know if huge is the right word, there were significant,
high profile women comedians talking about mammograms, and I feel
like that seeded because of course you're always kind of
like probes to exaggeration, to get the laugh, to the comedian,
(17:35):
make the punchline as strong as you can, and I
feel like that has seeded this sense of terror in
people that have never experienced them, because then it becomes
funny to talk about them that way, and that becomes
kind of culturally the norm.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and so there are.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
People that are coming up and reaching the age or
they're getting close to having to do it and all
they've ever heard from like relatives and whatnot. And part
of that is also like getting over the still existing
stigma of talking about like completely normal medical stuff you
got to do to take care of your body. Right,
has been a joke about the horror of it, And
I remember there was one comedian that used to talk
(18:12):
about like smashing your boob between two books, and like, yeah,
that being like the image people have in their heads
or what they've heard their you know, older friends or
relatives talk about.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Of course that's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And again it's not I don't want to stand there
and drink a diet coke and chat. But like, right,
it's not that bad at this point, at least it
has not been for me. I am sure for some
people it probably is still more painful.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Certainly than what I experienced, but right, I also, you know,
I to try to do the recommendation of like trying
to schedule them between periods when my breasts are less
likely to be tender. But that's becoming more challenging, yes,
because that's more random. And also since the coat like
the height of the COVID pandemic, especially getting the appointment scheduled.
(19:03):
Everything's been farther out. Yeah, like the medical system is
still struggling from the pandemic. And uh, I think it
was not my mammogram that I had to reschedule. I
had to reschedule my physical and because I had COVID
and in seven months, yeah was it was like two months?
(19:25):
Was was how far out my physical moment? But anyway, Yeah,
I just I wanted to have that. If you have
never had one and you only heard horror stories, I
understand feeling really scared about it.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Uh I do not feel them.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I do not personally find them to be a horror
story worthy experience.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
No. And I will say to add on to your
mention of how compassionate and kind and really you know,
as gentle as possible, most of the people working in
those in breast care imaging centers can beat a lot
of them too. Really try to make it almost like spa,
like where like, oh, yeah, you get a heated gow
(20:07):
when you go to do your thing, and like they're
playing gentle, soft music and it's very chill.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I got one at a women's hospital in Atlanta that
was one hundred percent like a day spa with a
heated robe, and I still miss it because that is
not what I'm doing in Boston. What I'm doing in
Boston is like I mean, it's it's fine, it's but
it's a very no frills. It's like there's there's your locker,
you can put your stuff in. Here is a plastic
(20:34):
bag containing like a clean cotton rope that you and
it's it just wasn't just much of a nice It's
not as much of a nice experience as the time
that there was a heated bathroom on me.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, some of them definitely do this hospital experience, which
is nice. Yeah, here's the question that I had. Sure,
So we mentioned we quoted a statistic about the high
(21:10):
incidents where a patient or someone in their life has
been how they found their breast cancer. But I am
really curious about the parameters of reporting because is that
a case not the great question? Is that a case
(21:32):
where they're like, hey, my husband mentioned something felt weird here,
so I scheduled a mammogram, like right, well, and that's yes.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, this particular study that that came from, and as
I remember, it was something where it was like patient
self reports, like the question was asked, how was your
breast cancer very first detected, with that first detection being
what we're talking about, and where a lot of people
they were either intentionally examining their own breasts right or
(22:06):
it was by accident like you're trying to carry something
and you're like that feels weird, or or their partner
finding it, and like that was the majority of how
people first So it was like, yes, they did detect
something and then went to the doctor and got like
a physical exam of the doctor or a mammogram or whatever.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
The point was.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
That, like that I physically felt the thing with my
hand or my partner's hand was the first sign for
a lot of people, not the going for the routine
screening mamogram right now. My other question though, is was
that was there a comparable of people who self reported
things that turned out to not.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Be I don't think so in the study that I
was reading, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Because I know there have definitely been times when I'm like,
I don't know, everything feels kind of lumpy at the moment, sure,
and it's been like no clean as a whistle, like,
so I wonder if there's that as well to be
factored in, Like sometimes people are just gonna be like, huh,
that's not quite right. And sometimes unfortunately it tests positive
(23:12):
or it's you know, imaging reveals a mass, but other
times probably it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah, I am pretty sure my mom's breast cancer was
detected on a mammogram.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
One of the people my age I know who just
who went through a breast cancer diagnosis was actually getting
what he thought was going to be his last mammogram
before a gender affirming surgery, and the mammogram found calcifications
that were a sign of cancer, and everything's fine. Uh
(23:46):
with my mom, everything's fine. Like at this point with
my mom, that's been I might even be twenty years ago,
like it's been a long time. Yeah, And so it's
like anecdotally, I feel like I know several people personally
whose breast cancer was first detected on a mammogram. And
(24:07):
it's a hard thing, I think to track because there's
not I mean, there are increasing electronic medical records and
things like that that might make it more possible, but
like that's not something that's necessarily specifically written down in
a way that's going to be something that you can
just correlate across a broad number range of people.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, the other thing too, is like, how often are
people like, something that doesn't feel right, I should schedule
a mammogram, but they don't ever tell their doctor or
the radiologists that yeah, yeah, I just generally found the
framing of the question of are mammograms a cost effective
way to detect early breast cancer? Like I found that
a really frustrating thing. I feel like there are legitimate
(24:50):
questions about some of the some of the growths that
are caught really really early.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
There are questions of like did that actually needed to
be that actually need to be treated, same question that's
been around since the seventies, or you know, was that
a tumor that just would have been there causing no
actual harm for the patient's whole life?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Right, And again, having.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Not really realized that it was within my lifetime that
we very first started having routine screening mammograms as a thing,
it doesn't surprise me that there are still so many
pieces of it that there are still questions about, and
it is so personal to people that the idea that like,
(25:41):
maybe you would not start until fifty. People are like,
but what if I developed cancer between forty and fifty?
Like I totally get that, and I remember when recommendations
were changed about when and how often to get paps,
because getting PAP used to be an annual thing, and
(26:03):
now there's a whole I don't want. It's almost like
an equation based on like your age, whether you are
sexually active or monogamous, and whether you've had negative HPV tests,
like all factors into how often you should get a
PAP test.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And when the.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
These like new standards were first put out, I remember
women in my family being so angry because they were like,
they want us to not have this every year and
people are gonna die and some of the examples that
they had pointed out. I was like, okay that this
you know, long ago family member that you're talking about
did not have cervical cancer, had a different cancer that
(26:45):
would not have been detected through a PAP at all.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
But I get it.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I get how it can feel like ah, but they
now they're just gonna miss it, and it's like, well,
there's a question of did we actually need to do that?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Though?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, I mean I I understand the I'm very like,
pro get all your screenings, particularly you know, as I
have gotten older. I no, none of it's fun you're
not like we I would like to be poked and prodded,
but I don't know. There's a little bit of peace
(27:19):
of mind that comes from knowing that you're getting things
looked at and hope, hey, people can develop good relationships
with their doctors. I know that's not the easiest thing
in the world, but it's just you know, I want
to keep everybody around as long as possible. So if
you can do an early detection on something, I'm very
I'm very much a proponent of it. Again, I know
(27:40):
it stinks, but I kind of several years, like probably
six or seven years ago, I just like made my
ongoing one of my annual resolutions is like, get all
the tests my doctor says I need.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And then during the height of the pandemic, when nobody
was going anywhere if they didn't have you, like, there
were several years where nobody was getting stuff screened, right
then I had to have We we had our little
discussion here at our house of like, you know, we
have to go get a million things.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
We got to even do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I remember at one point reading headlines about like the
whole debate about whether people should be screened between forty
and fifty and I did then go talk to my doctor,
say what are what do you recommend here? And the
recommendation is that I continue to do it annually. Yeah,
so that's what I've been That's what I've been doing.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Medical stuff so fun, super fun.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Uh. Anyway, So yeah, again, not medical advice beyond try
to find a provider that you trust, which I understand.
I mean, we've been focusing on the United States and
the fact that we don't have universal health care, but
I know it can be difficult for people to find
primary care doctors in places that do have universal health
care because of shortages of doctors and things like that.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
So I like just.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Situations everywhere. But yeah, Happy Friday. Whatever is happening on
your weekend.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I hope it's good.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something
brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class
is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and
I'm Tracy ve Wilson. We talked about Anthony Van Dyke
this week.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, who. As I mentioned at the end of the episode, I.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Probably drove my friends crazy because I have a really
beautiful book of a lot of his pieces, and I
would just take a picture on my phone and send
it to them and be like, can.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You believe because they're so good.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I mean, I'm just my mind boggles at his skill.
I am really fascinated by the sort of cagey information
we have.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
About his family situation.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, because I really do think when you put all
the pieces together, particularly the revelation that he had a
secret daughter that his sister was raising, then him going
so hard to fight his brothers in law over the
family fortune, starts to make a lot of sense. I mean,
(01:10):
he may have just done it for the benefit of
his siblings, but also when you think about like, oh,
one of those siblings was raising his kid, and it's like, ah,
now I see, yeah, which is pretty fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
All of that.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I mean, I think he was this is a guess
this is my speculation. I think he was purposely kind
of kg about his travels and whatnot for that very reason.
No one ever knew about this kid, apparently until his will.
So yeah, sneaky. I have a note in my notes
(01:50):
that says the timeline of European art Caravagio. You're like,
what did I mean? What I mean their lives overlapped? Yeah,
but I don't I wrote this outline long enough ago,
like we've been kind of juggling some recording stuff because
of our schedules and I and some problems with you know,
(02:12):
just technical issues, and I don't remember what that note
was about. It was so crystal clear to me then,
but there you go. Yeah, yeah, I do remember is
my note about historical portraits, Because okay, every once in
a while there is a trend in our modern lives
where like a portrait studio will pop up or an
(02:33):
existing studio will do an offer for a little while
where they do old timey photography were like you can
go get your picture taken and it looks like you're
in the wild West or you are in Victorian London
or whatever. And now, of course you know with photoshop
and like filter and filters. Yeah, and like, I don't
even want to get into the AI situation. You can
(02:56):
do that all the time, but his historical portraits kind
of made me think of that. Like people were like, no,
I want it to be me, but I want to
look like Venus.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I'm like, ah, that's an idea. I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So many things in this episode reminds me of our
episode on Mickle Nolatier. Yeah, who they were contemporaries, but
stuff like a lack of agreement about how to say
her name because it sort of depends on whether you
are being more French or more Dutch. And the part
about working as a professional artist while not being a
(03:37):
member of the guild.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, like that.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think that was something that I feel like, if
I'm remembering correctly, her brother had been working as a
professional painter without being in the guild. And then of
course just the the overlap of when and where when
and where they lived.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, I am. I wish we had more info on
his inner life, Yeah, because other than like his notes
about you know, finding pieces of art really beautiful or whatever,
we don't have, to the best of my knowledge, any
kind of like journals or discussions that are from his
(04:20):
point of view of his thoughts, and I feel like
he had to have been such an interesting character to
be down. I also think like he might be a
history crush. He's so handsome in those later self portraits.
I just think he's cute as pie. And he was apparently,
you know, right up until the point where he got
(04:40):
married right in his forties, like a womanizer, so clearly
like he had charm and appeal and charisma. The idea
pretty recently introduced that we have completely misunderstood his relationship
with Rubens is also fascinating to me, right, Like we
you and I see this all the time. I think
anybody who any kind of like history research regularly does,
(05:02):
where like there is a version of a story that
gets written, or a version of a biography or whatever
that gets written, sometimes pretty close to when the actual
events happened, and the default, because there aren't necessarily other sources,
is to take that as the truth. Yeah, but like
we don't know, right right, Yeah, There's That's something that
(05:27):
I find really interesting in the field of history in
general and just doing the show, like how how the
history that is written about a subject evolves over time
and that's normal.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
YEA.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Like sometimes folks who maybe I mean, I'm not I'm
not judging anybody's knowledge, Like, but folks who you know,
do not have a sense of like what the field
of history does. Will learn that there is a biography
that has sort of a new interpretation of something worked,
(06:01):
and we'll imagine that there's something like wrong with that
when really like that. That's how the whole field of
history works. It's the whole process of evaluating and interpreting
the sources that we have about something. And sometimes there
are new sources that are discovered, but other times it
(06:23):
is more that you know, the next historian to really
take a thorough look at something is looking at it
from a different perspective, with different you know, parts of
their own education and worldview and all of that, and
can interpret something a bit differently than before. Yeah, this
is why I really like that Christopher White biography that
(06:45):
we mentioned a couple times in the episode. It's fairly recent, right,
it's twenty twenty one, I believe. And he's really the
first one to point out like there isn't really any
evidence of some kind of dramatic fight between the two
of them, right, But it makes the I mean, if
you want to apply Okham's razor see how I did
(07:05):
that looped around to another old podcast subject, it makes
more logical sense that, like they just weren't in the
same place at the same time, they weren't having the
same life trajectory, since you know, Rubens had this other
career and a family that needed his time and attention.
(07:26):
You know, it just makes and he was clearly like
passing commissions off to Van Dyck, right right, So whether
or not you buy the idea that like, oh the portraits,
because those were not as well regarded as real art,
he's still making sure the guy's get in the living,
(07:46):
you know what I mean it well, and that like
that was something that was really interesting to me. There
have always been forms of art or literature or whatever
that were viewed as the real deal, while others were
viewed as like commercial or not worthy of scholarly attention.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
And like, like.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
The literature department that I studied in in college, I
loved so many things about it was snobby in terms
of like what was considered okay to study and what
was serious literature and what was not.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So I find this.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Whole idea of like the portraiture was thought of as
commercial and not art art really interesting, and it also
just makes me curious about how, like if this really
was something that was playing into his mind at all,
Like how did he feel about it?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Was he like, I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Making plenty of money, Like what's your goal with your art?
Is it to be able to support yourself or is
it to you know, make great art?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Or is it both? Like what is it? And I
don't do that?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Just I kept getting distracted by those thoughts while we
were talking about.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
That part of his work.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, and I mean, he was painting other things, but
he really became so known for his portraits. And I
almost think, right, that is a unique opportunity. Right at
a time when art art, for lack of a better phrase,
was glutted with people doing religious imagery, historical imagery, et cetera,
(09:24):
he elevated portraiture in a way that made everybody excited
about portraits. Right, So, like he kind of took that opportunity,
whether he intended to or not, of like the lesser
regarded part of the art world and made it something that,
you know, really transcended all of the others and makes
(09:45):
it so interesting. It really to me, seems like I
wish this is another use of our imaginary time machine.
I would love to go to England and see the
unveiling of like his or Rubens's very naturalistic portraits in
a world where mannerism had been like it for a while,
(10:05):
because it is such a gear shift of like those
very stiff, surreal, slightly surreal looking portraits of people that,
like you know, almost vibe to me the way like
the characters on a deck of playing cards look right
like they're very stiff and not quite natural, and they're
(10:26):
often very beautiful, but there they don't feel like real life,
whereas then you have these portraits that often look like photographs,
and like, how was that being perceived? Obviously a lot
of people in England were excited about it, but I'm
sure there were people that were like.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
What is this?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
That's what people look like? I see that all the time.
I don't want it en up painting. I don't know.
I'm sure there were detractors of that nature. But I
love it all. I love it all. I could really
look at his stuff all the time, and now I've
got it in my head that I need to do
like a Van museum crawl and just plan maybe multiple
trips to go places where they have some of his
(11:06):
best things. But I think that sounds great with that
sunflower portrait you can only see in a book, Yeah,
unless it gets loaned out one day, which I don't
think happens very often.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
But I don't know. I haven't tracked it.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Right anyway, Anthony Van Dyke, you sneaky little minx, your
secret families and your unclear impetus for doing various things right,
I don't even care. Just keep showing me the paintings.
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
We talked about mammograms this week. We sure did.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
One thing I did want to say before we start
is the most recent email that we got asking for
an episode on mammograms. The person he wrote in expressed
feeling very afraid about the idea of eventually needing to
get a mammogram because of all the horror stories shared.
And so I just want to take a minute, and
(12:08):
I want to acknowledge first I am not having to
deal with medical racism or fat phobia or transphobia, or
like I'm a white woman in a major metropolitan area
who has insurance. So I recognize that I'm starting like
having the easiest access to getting a mammogram. But I
(12:31):
have been getting mammograms since I think twenty thirteen, which
is I think earlier that at this point anyone record
recommend doing so. I think I was thirty eight. Because
my mom has had a breastpater, I would say it's
not a comfortable experience. There is squeezing of the breasts. Yes,
(12:53):
every single person who has ever conducted a mammogram for me,
which at this point has been at three different medical
centers in Atlanta and in like the Boston area, every
single person has been compassionate and efficient and in terms
of like having to go back this time, very reassuring.
(13:16):
It is clear that everybody knows that, like getting a
mammogram is not the funnest thing, and everybody has just
tried to get me in and out as efficiently and
with the least discomfort possible. Yes, I would rather have
twenty five mammograms than one set of dental X rays.
(13:40):
Oh yeah, because dental X rays make me gag and
I find it embarrassing, and also would rather have a
whole bunch of paps than dental X rays. But yeah,
I just I feel like people hear the horror stories,
and I just of all the things that I could
(14:02):
go through in a medical context, I am more stressed
out about driving to the mammogram than I am the
mammogram itself. This most recent time, we have one car
in our household and we accidentally double booked the car.
Patrick was going to be out of town with the
car and the If you live in the Boston area,
(14:23):
you know the tea has been incredibly broken lately, and
I did not trust a ride share service to get
me there on time either, So I literally stayed in
a hotel near the medical center the night before so
that I would not have to deal with that stress
in the morning, which again, I know, having money to
(14:43):
spend on a random hotel night is a privilege, but
it made it so much easier.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, I will say too, And I wonder if this
is your experience, because I have been getting mammograms for
around the same amount of time you have. I am
a large, busted woman, But I will say in that
decade a little over, because I just had one very recently,
(15:12):
I feel like it has gotten less and less uncomfortable
as imaging technology has gotten more and more fine tuned.
For to me, the flattening and extruding aspect of it
used to be way more painful than it is now. Yeah,
now it's like it's not comfortable. I don't want to
hang out there. But like I wasn't like, oh, I
just have to gut it out through this. I was like, okay.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I think the first mamogram that I ever got was
a digital mammogram, but it was not the three D
mammogram that they offer where I am now, which I
do feel like there's less compression involved in that than
there was the first time I got one, which again
I think was in something like twenty thirteen, and I'm
(15:55):
usually in and out, in and out of there in minutes, Yeah,
longer sitting in the waiting room than like actually back there.
When I had to go back up for a follow up,
there was more compression involved than just for a screening
mamogram because they got to get a closer look at it,
(16:15):
and then I also had an ultrasound and everything was fine.
But like that that, I think the like the going
back the diagnostic mammogram was I would say, more uncomfortable,
but still like not anything that I would describe to
anybody as like the worst thing I know everybody's body's difference, right,
(16:40):
But I also feel like if the if you have
heard about mammograms from folks that were getting them in
the eighties or nineties, probably way more uncomfortable than now.
I feel like some of this, in the weirdest way
come along on this journey with me relates to kind
of this we were talking about when we were talking
(17:03):
about Anthony van Dyke, that there's one version of the
story of his relationship with Rubens that has impacted the
way we have perceived that relationship forever.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Similarly, in the eighties there was a huge, I don't
know if huge is the right word, there were significant,
high profile women comedians talking about mammograms, and I feel
like that seeded because of course you're always kind of
like probes to exaggeration, to get the laugh, to the comedian,
(17:35):
make the punchline as strong as you can, and I
feel like that has seeded this sense of terror in
people that have never experienced them, because then it becomes
funny to talk about them that way, and that becomes
kind of culturally the norm.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and so there are.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
People that are coming up and reaching the age or
they're getting close to having to do it and all
they've ever heard from like relatives and whatnot. And part
of that is also like getting over the still existing
stigma of talking about like completely normal medical stuff you
got to do to take care of your body. Right,
has been a joke about the horror of it, And
I remember there was one comedian that used to talk
(18:12):
about like smashing your boob between two books, and like, yeah,
that being like the image people have in their heads
or what they've heard their you know, older friends or
relatives talk about.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Of course that's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And again it's not I don't want to stand there
and drink a diet coke and chat. But like, right,
it's not that bad at this point, at least it
has not been for me. I am sure for some
people it probably is still more painful.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Certainly than what I experienced, but right, I also, you know,
I to try to do the recommendation of like trying
to schedule them between periods when my breasts are less
likely to be tender. But that's becoming more challenging, yes,
because that's more random. And also since the coat like
the height of the COVID pandemic, especially getting the appointment scheduled.
(19:03):
Everything's been farther out. Yeah, like the medical system is
still struggling from the pandemic. And uh, I think it
was not my mammogram that I had to reschedule. I
had to reschedule my physical and because I had COVID
and in seven months, yeah was it was like two months?
(19:25):
Was was how far out my physical moment? But anyway, Yeah,
I just I wanted to have that. If you have
never had one and you only heard horror stories, I
understand feeling really scared about it.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Uh I do not feel them.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I do not personally find them to be a horror
story worthy experience.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
No. And I will say to add on to your
mention of how compassionate and kind and really you know,
as gentle as possible, most of the people working in
those in breast care imaging centers can beat a lot
of them too. Really try to make it almost like spa,
like where like, oh, yeah, you get a heated gow
(20:07):
when you go to do your thing, and like they're
playing gentle, soft music and it's very chill.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I got one at a women's hospital in Atlanta that
was one hundred percent like a day spa with a
heated robe, and I still miss it because that is
not what I'm doing in Boston. What I'm doing in
Boston is like I mean, it's it's fine, it's but
it's a very no frills. It's like there's there's your locker,
you can put your stuff in. Here is a plastic
(20:34):
bag containing like a clean cotton rope that you and
it's it just wasn't just much of a nice It's
not as much of a nice experience as the time
that there was a heated bathroom on me.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, some of them definitely do this hospital experience, which
is nice. Yeah, here's the question that I had. Sure,
So we mentioned we quoted a statistic about the high
(21:10):
incidents where a patient or someone in their life has
been how they found their breast cancer. But I am
really curious about the parameters of reporting because is that
a case not the great question? Is that a case
(21:32):
where they're like, hey, my husband mentioned something felt weird here,
so I scheduled a mammogram, like right, well, and that's yes.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, this particular study that that came from, and as
I remember, it was something where it was like patient
self reports, like the question was asked, how was your
breast cancer very first detected, with that first detection being
what we're talking about, and where a lot of people
they were either intentionally examining their own breasts right or
(22:06):
it was by accident like you're trying to carry something
and you're like that feels weird, or or their partner
finding it, and like that was the majority of how
people first So it was like, yes, they did detect
something and then went to the doctor and got like
a physical exam of the doctor or a mammogram or whatever.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
The point was.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
That, like that I physically felt the thing with my
hand or my partner's hand was the first sign for
a lot of people, not the going for the routine
screening mamogram right now. My other question though, is was
that was there a comparable of people who self reported
things that turned out to not.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Be I don't think so in the study that I
was reading, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Because I know there have definitely been times when I'm like,
I don't know, everything feels kind of lumpy at the moment, sure,
and it's been like no clean as a whistle, like,
so I wonder if there's that as well to be
factored in, Like sometimes people are just gonna be like, huh,
that's not quite right. And sometimes unfortunately it tests positive
(23:12):
or it's you know, imaging reveals a mass, but other
times probably it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah, I am pretty sure my mom's breast cancer was
detected on a mammogram.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
One of the people my age I know who just
who went through a breast cancer diagnosis was actually getting
what he thought was going to be his last mammogram
before a gender affirming surgery, and the mammogram found calcifications
that were a sign of cancer, and everything's fine. Uh
(23:46):
with my mom, everything's fine. Like at this point with
my mom, that's been I might even be twenty years ago,
like it's been a long time. Yeah, And so it's
like anecdotally, I feel like I know several people personally
whose breast cancer was first detected on a mammogram. And
(24:07):
it's a hard thing, I think to track because there's
not I mean, there are increasing electronic medical records and
things like that that might make it more possible, but
like that's not something that's necessarily specifically written down in
a way that's going to be something that you can
just correlate across a broad number range of people.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, the other thing too, is like, how often are
people like, something that doesn't feel right, I should schedule
a mammogram, but they don't ever tell their doctor or
the radiologists that yeah, yeah, I just generally found the
framing of the question of are mammograms a cost effective
way to detect early breast cancer? Like I found that
a really frustrating thing. I feel like there are legitimate
(24:50):
questions about some of the some of the growths that
are caught really really early.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
There are questions of like did that actually needed to
be that actually need to be treated, same question that's
been around since the seventies, or you know, was that
a tumor that just would have been there causing no
actual harm for the patient's whole life?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Right, And again, having.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Not really realized that it was within my lifetime that
we very first started having routine screening mammograms as a thing,
it doesn't surprise me that there are still so many
pieces of it that there are still questions about, and
it is so personal to people that the idea that like,
(25:41):
maybe you would not start until fifty. People are like,
but what if I developed cancer between forty and fifty?
Like I totally get that, and I remember when recommendations
were changed about when and how often to get paps,
because getting PAP used to be an annual thing, and
(26:03):
now there's a whole I don't want. It's almost like
an equation based on like your age, whether you are
sexually active or monogamous, and whether you've had negative HPV tests,
like all factors into how often you should get a
PAP test.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And when the.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
These like new standards were first put out, I remember
women in my family being so angry because they were like,
they want us to not have this every year and
people are gonna die and some of the examples that
they had pointed out. I was like, okay that this
you know, long ago family member that you're talking about
did not have cervical cancer, had a different cancer that
(26:45):
would not have been detected through a PAP at all.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
But I get it.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I get how it can feel like ah, but they
now they're just gonna miss it, and it's like, well,
there's a question of did we actually need to do that?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Though?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, I mean I I understand the I'm very like,
pro get all your screenings, particularly you know, as I
have gotten older. I no, none of it's fun you're
not like we I would like to be poked and prodded,
but I don't know. There's a little bit of peace
(27:19):
of mind that comes from knowing that you're getting things
looked at and hope, hey, people can develop good relationships
with their doctors. I know that's not the easiest thing
in the world, but it's just you know, I want
to keep everybody around as long as possible. So if
you can do an early detection on something, I'm very
I'm very much a proponent of it. Again, I know
(27:40):
it stinks, but I kind of several years, like probably
six or seven years ago, I just like made my
ongoing one of my annual resolutions is like, get all
the tests my doctor says I need.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And then during the height of the pandemic, when nobody
was going anywhere if they didn't have you, like, there
were several years where nobody was getting stuff screened, right
then I had to have We we had our little
discussion here at our house of like, you know, we
have to go get a million things.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
We got to even do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I remember at one point reading headlines about like the
whole debate about whether people should be screened between forty
and fifty and I did then go talk to my doctor,
say what are what do you recommend here? And the
recommendation is that I continue to do it annually. Yeah,
so that's what I've been That's what I've been doing.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Medical stuff so fun, super fun.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Uh. Anyway, So yeah, again, not medical advice beyond try
to find a provider that you trust, which I understand.
I mean, we've been focusing on the United States and
the fact that we don't have universal health care, but
I know it can be difficult for people to find
primary care doctors in places that do have universal health
care because of shortages of doctors and things like that.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
So I like just.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Situations everywhere. But yeah, Happy Friday. Whatever is happening on
your weekend.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I hope it's good.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something
brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class
is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Tracy V. Wilson
Holly Frey
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