April 21, 2023 • 26 mins
Holly and Tracy talk about their relationships with Shirley Temples and Negronis. Tracy then shares her attempt to chase down the location of Mary Dyer's execution.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and
I'm Tracy V.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Wilson. I have so many things to talk about for
this time.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Okay, I'm gonna go in order of what we covered
on the eponymous Drinks at the Yeah. So I remember
with such clarity my first Chirley Temple mm hmm. It
was given to me on a plane and because it
was like this cool looking beverage and I was on
a plane and I felt super worldly. I think this
(00:41):
might be where I fell in love with cocktails. Okay,
Like I just associated it with like coolness and being like,
you know, a globe trotter. Oh, I was nine, but
in my head I was the coolest nine year old
ever for a minute. That was also a trip where
I lost one of my favorite toys and like we
never found it and it was very troubling.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
But the the Shirley Temple stayed with me forever. I
don't think I have ever had one because we were
not a drinking family in any way, and so I
like was never.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Exposed to the idea.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I mean I was exposed to the idea of a cocktail,
but I was like, never in a place where cocktails
were being served until I was an adult. Fascinating. Yeah,
you could have come to my locker in high school.
Don't do that, kids don't do that. Yeah, So I
like I didn't really, I didn't really know it was
(01:38):
even a like a drink with a recipe.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I thought it was a thing people.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Said to get something, Just give me something non alcoholic
and fruity.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Like I didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I didn't realize there was like a it was an
actual oh yeah, yeah thing that it's clearly variation variations
of the recipe, but like, I didn't know there was
even really that. Yeah, I feel like most people, if
you had to go with like this is the common one.
It's the grenadine and the lemon lime soda with the
Maraschino cherry on top. The other variations are all interesting
(02:12):
and yummy, but like maybe the ginger ale, but I'm
I always see it most of the time if I
get it, which I occasionally do. It's the grenadine and
the lemon lime. That's the basic. The others are variations.
You can also, you know, throw a spirit in there
and make it a whole other thing. Yep, I do
(02:35):
a spirited version of it where I do just to
splash a grenadine and most of the syrup is actually
a rose syrup, and it's a very yummy into list
that sounds good, listen. I love flour flavored drinks, nigronies,
so nigronies are interesting. We didn't really talk about it
(02:55):
in the episode, but they are not everyone's cup of alcohol.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It's a very strong flavor. It's a very unique and
strong flavor. Now, I did recently, and I've always had
a hard time making friends with an agronie, but I
did recently have I was on vacation and I had
a bartender who was doing like a cocktail flight and
talking through some stuff, and she made a very good
(03:24):
case where she was like, you know, most people, the
first time they take a sip of an agronie, they
do not like it. But the idea is that you
have that first sip and you let it settle, and
then you take your second sip and that's where you
start tasting all of the interesting notes of the actual beverage.
And she's not wrong. It's still a little harsh for me,
but I was able to drink it thinking about it
(03:45):
that way.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I also on that trip because I had set up
that tasting for me and several friends and it was
in a Star Wars situation where the drinks are named,
not what they're really named in the real world. Sure
saw several friends unknowingly rink and the groni for the
first time, and that was really fun for me.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Did you take pictures of their faces?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Kind of? Yeah? I mean I was cackling so hard,
which is terrible, possibly, but it was very funny to
watch them go like, oh.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I'll go, what is this holy? Because a lot the description.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Okay, I'm not questioning the idea that somebody could move
from Italy to the United States and become a cowboy,
just the way the dialogue is delivered in that pee,
I'm like, this does not feel real to me. This
feels made up. Maybe that opens up though many other
questions of like, okay, but then how did this guy
(04:41):
know about him? Because he did travel there, right, so
did he meet this person and rewrote how he spoke
or we don't know, Yeah, we don't know. Lots of
question marks, so many question marks. That's one of those things.
And I told you, I fully expect people to write
in and be like, you got it all wrong, because
(05:01):
people will argue about the origins of cocktails in general
is a heated space. So I tried to capture all
of the key elements on the Nigronie. If I didn't,
my deepest apologies. I'm fascinated by the lawsuit about the
bottled Negronie. Yeah, like just that one. I mean, I
think Campari's big thing. I didn't find any actual legal
(05:24):
documents on how that played out, but I think their
big thing was like, it's not in a gronny. I
of Compari's not in it, So this is not in
a gronie first of all, but also that other liqueur
companies were like, it's so terrible, this can't represent Italy. Like, yeah, no,
that gave me a moment of delight. Yeah, I don't
(05:44):
know how you would do a I mean, you can
bottle soda.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
There's something about that comba that doesn't seem right to
combine and bottle that it would keeps its unique flavor.
But I am no beverage chemistry expert in that regard.
I've seen a lot more canned and bottled cocktails on
the market more recently, Yes, for sure. And I would
say I mixed results. Well that one is here's some
(06:13):
of the confusion for me on that one, if you're
actually mixing it and then bottling it again. I don't
know how this factory was written, but like vermouth is
one of those things that, like a lot of people,
keep at room temperature. You're not supposed to. You're supposed
to refrigerate it and once it's open, because it will
it will get skunky and weird. And if you think
you don't like Remoove, it might be because you've been
(06:34):
drinking it sitting on a after sitting on a bar
back when it should have been in the fringe. So
part of me is like, if you mixed that and
then you bottled it and then does that is the
vermouth at that point compromised? And will that ruin the
taste of the final thing? And I don't know. Do
(07:03):
you want to hear about lots of litigation involving doctor Pepper?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mm hmmm. Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
First of all, I will say I have questions because
all of the things that I read said that like
Alderton was like, no, I don't want any part of
this manufacturing business. But part of me is like, did
he just get pushed out? Because we never get any
more about it from that, And similarly, Morrison kind of
vanishes from the equation and his business partner takes over,
(07:28):
and I don't really know what the scoop is there.
That's not the litigation part. I did not realize how
many times Doctor Pepper and Coca Cola have been in
hardcore lawsuits together, Like there was during I'm trying to
remember what year it was hold on. Let me see
if I can find it in my notes, because I
(07:50):
did keep it handy. There was an instance where Doctor
Pepper was legally determined to be not a cola, which
is important because Pepsi and Coke have each had clauses
(08:12):
in their contract with bottling companies that are exclusivity clauses
like we will be the only cola you bottle and
manufacture here, which meant that Doctor Pepper couldn't get into
those markets without building a whole thing. But in being
declared legally not a cola, they were able to be
made in the same plants. So that's one thing just fascinating.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
The other.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Is that mister pib so When it was first taken
to market, mister PIB was called Peppo okay, and doctor
Pepper sued. It was like, come on, you're making a
copy of our drink because start, remember, has maintained a
(08:58):
pretty significant market share because it's a unique tasting soda
in the brown sodas. It doesn't taste like the others.
It has its own kind of quality to it.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So they sued, and.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Then Coca Cola was like, okay, and then they named
it mister PIB, which, by the way, it doesn't exist
anymore either. Now it is called is it not, it's
called hold on, let me make sure I get this right.
It still exists in a different flavor. It's like PIB.
(09:34):
I want to say it's PIB extreme, but I don't
think it's that. It's like PIB extra or something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It hasn't been made as mister PIB for like twenty years,
which I didn't realize until I was working on this
that I yeah, I didn't realize this either.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The other thing that I found really interesting and I
debated over adding it into the episode and didn't is
all of the pretty unique and interesting approaches to advertising
that Doctor Pepper has done over the years. Like for
a while their bottles had the numbers ten two and
four on them, and the idea was there had been
(10:15):
some studies done where people got tired or laggy at
yeh thirty, two thirty and four thirty, and so they
were like, if you drink at doctor Pepper at these times,
you won't get laggy.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, I remember this.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
It was pretty that's a pretty great, fascinating way to
do it.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It was.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Their slogan was drink a bite to eat at ten
two and four, and I'm like, those get sugared up.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
It's a weird messaging, Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
There was also a thing that they advertised, I think
several years in the winter to make hot doctor Pepper.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh no thanks.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I want to read this advertisement to you.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I don't know why it tickles me.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So it looks so jolly. It has a snowman holding
a clear mug of hot doctor Pepper, and it says,
here's something truly different Doctor Pepper, which is great as
an icy cold soft drink, is also delicious served steaming hot,
and hot doctor Pepper is so easy to prepare. Just
heat doctor Pepper or diet doctor pepper in a saucepan
(11:23):
till its steams, then pour over thin slices of lemon
hot doctor pepper. That's a hot idea. Okay. I am
a weirdo that will drink soda without ice. I don't
mind a warm soda if it hasn't been in the fridge.
I'm very European this way. I'm not really uh actually
heat it up soda.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, that's awful.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Having just as an example, having bought a doctor pepper
and had it in the car and left the car
for a couple of hours in the summertime to go
into the store or whatever, they come out and unthinkingly
took a swig of that car hot doctor pepper. That
sounds bad to me. I mean, my thing is I
(12:08):
guess here's here's where I'm getting hung up. Part of
why I love sodas like many people, I love the
bubbles like that's that's part of the magic. It's why
I always want a soda in my hand, essentially of
some type, and that is gonna get rid of all
the bubbles and then you just have hot sugar juice. Ah. Yeah,
(12:30):
Which I guess you could make the argument, like what
do you think like warm punches are. But I'm also
not super into those. But yeah, I think that's that's
where I'm like, no, thank you, I don't I don't
care for it. And of course now there are many
(12:50):
many flavors and many many things, and they've done all
this stuff. But Hot Doctor Pepper really got my attention. Yeah,
that would be a great cover band of some sort.
Hot Doctor Pepper. Not for me, not for me anyway.
So many beverages, so much beverage talk I like about
of beverage history anyway, but those ones were fun to discuss.
(13:20):
This week, we talked about Mary Dyer and some of
the other folks who were executed for being Quakers in
colonial Massachusetts. I went down the biggest, biggest rabbit hole
about exactly where executions were taking place. What did you find?
(13:41):
Pretty much everything that is specifically about Mary Dyer and
is specifically about the other especially the other two people
who were executed before she was, they just say the
place of execution.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And that is all it says.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And like, there are other people who were also executed
around the same time in the seventeenth century, and some
of those do more specifically say that, like at that
point the place of execution was on Boston Neck. Boston
Neck doesn't exist anymore because on one side of Boston
Neck was the Back Bay, and on the other side
(14:20):
of Boston Neck was another body of water.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
All of that is filled in now, so like there's
no more narrow strip of land right there. But a
lot of people who described they're coming into Boston talked
about crossing Boston Neck and coming to a wall and
a gallows, and it was like outside of Boston, on
the other side of this wall on Boston Neck is
where the gallows was. There was a guy named Michael J.
(14:48):
Cannavan who delivered a paper in nineteen eleven in which
he walked through where other executions had taken place. He
walked through some of the vague things that people say
said about Mary Dye or other people, like there was
somebody who was like and then she was taken about
a mile and about a mile wouldn't have put her
(15:10):
on Boston Common, It would have put her on Boston Neck.
There was apparently a couple of decades later, Quakers in
Massachusetts were trying to like enclose the burial the burial
area where the people had been buried and to mark
their graves, which Massachusetts didn't want to do. But they
(15:36):
didn't really specifically say where that was, like where the
enclosure was trying to happen.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Was it on Boston Common? Was it on Boston Neck?
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And then the same person somewhat later talked about passing
by the place where the Quakers had tried to put
a little fence up, but was on the way to Dorchester,
and and he definitely would have gone down Boston Neck
on the way to Dorchester, but might also have gone
by Boston Common.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Not clear. None of this.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Was helpful, And so after looking at this for just
a huge amount of time, I was like, you know,
who might know Jake from Hub History Because Hub History
is a podcast that has been around for like two
hundred and seventy something episodes. It is just about Boston history.
Jake and I have forgotten the name of the woman
(16:30):
who was also hosting at the time. She's moved on
to other projects, but he had a co so that like,
they already did a Mary Dire episode, and in that
episode they described as happening on.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Boston Neck.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
But as we were going back and forth about it,
I was like, I still don't know though, Like I
really thought when I asked him this question on Twitter
on a Saturday, I thought the answer was either going
to be, oh, yes, here is a great source, or
it was gonna be I actually don't.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Know of one.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
But instead he very graciously spent way more time than
I expected, sending me a whole bunch of links to
a whole bunch of primary sources that to me just
made it more confusing. One of the things that I
think happened though, is that eventually hangings were definitely carried
out on Boston Common, and the same execution site on
Boston Common was used for a while. So then when
(17:21):
in the like later eighteenth and nineteenth century, people started
writing history books about the history of Boston, they were
used to the hangings being carried out on the Common,
and so that was like when this other piece of
common land on Boston Neck came up and was also
just called something like the common Land, like their mind
(17:43):
kind of filled in the blank of Boston the place
that we know of as a public park today. So
I it just was, it was so so much, so
much time that I spent on that without really feeling
like I had come to an actual answer, but the
(18:03):
idea that it was definitely on Boston Common is like
almost everywhere. So another thing is, as I was thinking
about this whole Boston Common question, I was like, you know,
it would be kind of ironic because with that statue
in front of the State House, she's basically looking out
(18:24):
at Boston Common. She would just be sort of in
perpetuity looking at her execution and burial place. Oh so
number one, there's all the questions I just talked about.
Number two though, just because of the layout of the
park and the layout of the State House, she is
not actually looking at the Boston It's not actually looking
(18:45):
at Boston Common.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
There's a building in the way. What she's actually looking
at as a Dunkin Donuts. Heaven. There's just a whole
different and very Massachusetts thing.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
America runs on. Duncan Tracy, She's fine, I guess, so yeah,
if you don't know, there's a lot of dunkin Donuts
in Massachusetts. Personally, I like the Mary Dier statue better
than the Anne Hutchinson one. And one of the reasons
that the Mary Dire statue has always caught my eye
(19:17):
is that it has a simplicity to it, which totally
makes sense because it is about a Quaker woman by
a Quaker sculpture, and like, simplicity is a value among Quakers,
and so she's wearing very simple clothing. She's sitting on
a bench that looks like maybe the bench in the
meetinghouse that where she would have attended services. She's not
(19:37):
actually looking at the dunkin donuts. She's looking more downward,
and it just it's a statue that I feels like
it has a peaceful contemplativeness to it while also feeling determined,
which I think just reflects a lot of things about her.
The one of Anne Hutchinson. There's Anne. She has her
(20:00):
arm around a little girl, which is I'm pretty sure
supposed to be her daughter, Susannah, and so she's like
one arm is around the little girl, the other arm
she's holding a bible to her breast, and she's sort
of looking heavenward. And it's just a lot more ostentatious
to me in the way that it kind of portrays everything.
(20:21):
And so it's also harder to get a look at
from the sidewalk because in addition to it being farther
away from the sidewalk, there's some I don't know if
it's construction or landscape work going on, but there's a
bunch of temporary fencing right now between the sidewalk and
the statue, so it's just not as easy to get
a good look at unless you want to get on
the other side of the fence, which I think you
(20:43):
can do.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Maybe not all the time, but I think you can
do so anyway.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Statue talk, Yeah, I kind of cracked up that we
have done two shows about heresy right on each other's heels. Yeah,
but like in ways that played out so drastically differently.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
For sure, one is like a bunch of dudes kind
of slap fighting, and this one is much graver.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I did not get into it in the episode, but
I did read a whole paper about how this event
influenced sort of Quaker's views of themselves and of their
religion and also sort of the mythological mythologizing, as a
(21:33):
better word, the story that the United States tells about itself. Yeah,
because the colony, like colonial Boston, you could argue, had
a lot more sustained part of like the growth of
(21:54):
the United States as a nation than the colony at
Plymouth colony at Plymouth has its whole different issues, right,
But the colony at Plymouth didn't publicly hang for people
for being coakers, Right, So this paper kind of argued
that maybe one of the reasons that there is more
(22:17):
of a focus on this not very accurate story of
like the First Thanksgiving and the Colony at Plymouth and
all that is because then you don't have to talk
about these incidents of like religious persecution and hangings.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I mean, here's what I I love is not the
right word, but here your's what intrigues me about this
whole story. This is such a good examination of the
psychology of fear, right, because on the one hand, humans
(22:55):
fear the unexpected and the fear change, and so right,
there's that, and it's like, you know, you can't help
but think. I can't help but think. And I'm sure
many people feel the same as you. Hear it, Like,
here's a woman who lost her child and probably you know,
(23:16):
was grieving that, and somehow, in the midst of that pain,
also became an outcast because people were so scared that
somehow the bad thing that happened to her meant that
God was angry and they were afraid that a bad
(23:37):
thing might happen to them if they did not cast
her out. And it's like, it's interesting in the way
that like groupthink in situations like that can cause fear
to supersede any kind of compassion. Sure, and I'm always
very intrigued by these these kinds of things where it's
(23:57):
like that is a woman who just loves lost a child. Yeah,
she's got her own stuff going on. You don't need
to be like this, But they did because they were terrified,
which is weird. There are a number of people who
have drawn conclusions about like Mary Dyer's baby and like
(24:20):
how that baby would have been diagnosed today, and the
same for Ann Hutchinson's mishearage. And I didn't put any
of that in there because I'm like, we are talking
about somebody who exhumed a baby that had been buried
months before and then interpreted what they saw through this
lens of like monstrousness. I'm like, I don't That's not
(24:44):
a lot of scientific rigor being applied there. It's very
thin evidence to try to make a diagnosis out of.
So I did not feel comfortable, even though there are
a lot of people that have made that I was like,
I don't feel comfortable really putting that in there. I
had to go back into Boston for a totally different reason,
for a different episode. And while I was there, I
(25:07):
as I was walking in the direction I needed to walk,
I walked past the Merryder statue and I looped back
and I was like, is she really.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Looking at the dunkin Donuts?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
She is? And then I was like, let me go
look at the Anne Hutchinson statue, even though that's not
the way that I'm walking, And like walked whole way
and was like, that is a lot farther back from
the road than I. Like, it's odd how that stretch
of like Park and Land and State House is kind
of laid out in a way that's definitely not square, right.
You end up with like one side of the Stayhouse
(25:36):
way farther back from.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
The road than the other.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
So anyway, if you go walking around Boston, we got
a lot of statues and they all have stories they
do they do. On that same walk, there were a
couple other statues that I made note of.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I was like, who is this person?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I got to look them up because I'm intrigued by
this statue.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
So Happy Friday.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And if you've got great stuff going on this weekend,
I hope it's great. If your weekend is not looking
this great, you know, I hope you're able to take
a minute for yourself. I've been trying very hard to
carve out some moments for my own self every day,
even if something's going on, it's trying to prevent that.
We'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow. We will
(26:22):
be back Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff You
Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and
I'm Tracy V.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Wilson. I have so many things to talk about for
this time.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Okay, I'm gonna go in order of what we covered
on the eponymous Drinks at the Yeah. So I remember
with such clarity my first Chirley Temple mm hmm. It
was given to me on a plane and because it
was like this cool looking beverage and I was on
a plane and I felt super worldly. I think this
(00:41):
might be where I fell in love with cocktails. Okay,
Like I just associated it with like coolness and being like,
you know, a globe trotter. Oh, I was nine, but
in my head I was the coolest nine year old
ever for a minute. That was also a trip where
I lost one of my favorite toys and like we
never found it and it was very troubling.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
But the the Shirley Temple stayed with me forever. I
don't think I have ever had one because we were
not a drinking family in any way, and so I
like was never.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Exposed to the idea.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I mean I was exposed to the idea of a cocktail,
but I was like, never in a place where cocktails
were being served until I was an adult. Fascinating. Yeah,
you could have come to my locker in high school.
Don't do that, kids don't do that. Yeah, So I
like I didn't really, I didn't really know it was
(01:38):
even a like a drink with a recipe.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I thought it was a thing people.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Said to get something, Just give me something non alcoholic
and fruity.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Like I didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I didn't realize there was like a it was an
actual oh yeah, yeah thing that it's clearly variation variations
of the recipe, but like, I didn't know there was
even really that. Yeah, I feel like most people, if
you had to go with like this is the common one.
It's the grenadine and the lemon lime soda with the
Maraschino cherry on top. The other variations are all interesting
(02:12):
and yummy, but like maybe the ginger ale, but I'm
I always see it most of the time if I
get it, which I occasionally do. It's the grenadine and
the lemon lime. That's the basic. The others are variations.
You can also, you know, throw a spirit in there
and make it a whole other thing. Yep, I do
(02:35):
a spirited version of it where I do just to
splash a grenadine and most of the syrup is actually
a rose syrup, and it's a very yummy into list
that sounds good, listen. I love flour flavored drinks, nigronies,
so nigronies are interesting. We didn't really talk about it
(02:55):
in the episode, but they are not everyone's cup of alcohol.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It's a very strong flavor. It's a very unique and
strong flavor. Now, I did recently, and I've always had
a hard time making friends with an agronie, but I
did recently have I was on vacation and I had
a bartender who was doing like a cocktail flight and
talking through some stuff, and she made a very good
(03:24):
case where she was like, you know, most people, the
first time they take a sip of an agronie, they
do not like it. But the idea is that you
have that first sip and you let it settle, and
then you take your second sip and that's where you
start tasting all of the interesting notes of the actual beverage.
And she's not wrong. It's still a little harsh for me,
but I was able to drink it thinking about it
(03:45):
that way.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I also on that trip because I had set up
that tasting for me and several friends and it was
in a Star Wars situation where the drinks are named,
not what they're really named in the real world. Sure
saw several friends unknowingly rink and the groni for the
first time, and that was really fun for me.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Did you take pictures of their faces?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Kind of? Yeah? I mean I was cackling so hard,
which is terrible, possibly, but it was very funny to
watch them go like, oh.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I'll go, what is this holy? Because a lot the description.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Okay, I'm not questioning the idea that somebody could move
from Italy to the United States and become a cowboy,
just the way the dialogue is delivered in that pee,
I'm like, this does not feel real to me. This
feels made up. Maybe that opens up though many other
questions of like, okay, but then how did this guy
(04:41):
know about him? Because he did travel there, right, so
did he meet this person and rewrote how he spoke
or we don't know, Yeah, we don't know. Lots of
question marks, so many question marks. That's one of those things.
And I told you, I fully expect people to write
in and be like, you got it all wrong, because
(05:01):
people will argue about the origins of cocktails in general
is a heated space. So I tried to capture all
of the key elements on the Nigronie. If I didn't,
my deepest apologies. I'm fascinated by the lawsuit about the
bottled Negronie. Yeah, like just that one. I mean, I
think Campari's big thing. I didn't find any actual legal
(05:24):
documents on how that played out, but I think their
big thing was like, it's not in a gronny. I
of Compari's not in it, So this is not in
a gronie first of all, but also that other liqueur
companies were like, it's so terrible, this can't represent Italy. Like, yeah, no,
that gave me a moment of delight. Yeah, I don't
(05:44):
know how you would do a I mean, you can
bottle soda.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
There's something about that comba that doesn't seem right to
combine and bottle that it would keeps its unique flavor.
But I am no beverage chemistry expert in that regard.
I've seen a lot more canned and bottled cocktails on
the market more recently, Yes, for sure. And I would
say I mixed results. Well that one is here's some
(06:13):
of the confusion for me on that one, if you're
actually mixing it and then bottling it again. I don't
know how this factory was written, but like vermouth is
one of those things that, like a lot of people,
keep at room temperature. You're not supposed to. You're supposed
to refrigerate it and once it's open, because it will
it will get skunky and weird. And if you think
you don't like Remoove, it might be because you've been
(06:34):
drinking it sitting on a after sitting on a bar
back when it should have been in the fringe. So
part of me is like, if you mixed that and
then you bottled it and then does that is the
vermouth at that point compromised? And will that ruin the
taste of the final thing? And I don't know. Do
(07:03):
you want to hear about lots of litigation involving doctor Pepper?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mm hmmm. Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
First of all, I will say I have questions because
all of the things that I read said that like
Alderton was like, no, I don't want any part of
this manufacturing business. But part of me is like, did
he just get pushed out? Because we never get any
more about it from that, And similarly, Morrison kind of
vanishes from the equation and his business partner takes over,
(07:28):
and I don't really know what the scoop is there.
That's not the litigation part. I did not realize how
many times Doctor Pepper and Coca Cola have been in
hardcore lawsuits together, Like there was during I'm trying to
remember what year it was hold on. Let me see
if I can find it in my notes, because I
(07:50):
did keep it handy. There was an instance where Doctor
Pepper was legally determined to be not a cola, which
is important because Pepsi and Coke have each had clauses
(08:12):
in their contract with bottling companies that are exclusivity clauses
like we will be the only cola you bottle and
manufacture here, which meant that Doctor Pepper couldn't get into
those markets without building a whole thing. But in being
declared legally not a cola, they were able to be
made in the same plants. So that's one thing just fascinating.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
The other.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Is that mister pib so When it was first taken
to market, mister PIB was called Peppo okay, and doctor
Pepper sued. It was like, come on, you're making a
copy of our drink because start, remember, has maintained a
(08:58):
pretty significant market share because it's a unique tasting soda
in the brown sodas. It doesn't taste like the others.
It has its own kind of quality to it.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So they sued, and.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Then Coca Cola was like, okay, and then they named
it mister PIB, which, by the way, it doesn't exist
anymore either. Now it is called is it not, it's
called hold on, let me make sure I get this right.
It still exists in a different flavor. It's like PIB.
(09:34):
I want to say it's PIB extreme, but I don't
think it's that. It's like PIB extra or something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It hasn't been made as mister PIB for like twenty years,
which I didn't realize until I was working on this
that I yeah, I didn't realize this either.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The other thing that I found really interesting and I
debated over adding it into the episode and didn't is
all of the pretty unique and interesting approaches to advertising
that Doctor Pepper has done over the years. Like for
a while their bottles had the numbers ten two and
four on them, and the idea was there had been
(10:15):
some studies done where people got tired or laggy at
yeh thirty, two thirty and four thirty, and so they
were like, if you drink at doctor Pepper at these times,
you won't get laggy.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, I remember this.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
It was pretty that's a pretty great, fascinating way to
do it.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It was.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Their slogan was drink a bite to eat at ten
two and four, and I'm like, those get sugared up.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
It's a weird messaging, Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
There was also a thing that they advertised, I think
several years in the winter to make hot doctor Pepper.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh no thanks.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I want to read this advertisement to you.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I don't know why it tickles me.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So it looks so jolly. It has a snowman holding
a clear mug of hot doctor Pepper, and it says,
here's something truly different Doctor Pepper, which is great as
an icy cold soft drink, is also delicious served steaming hot,
and hot doctor Pepper is so easy to prepare. Just
heat doctor Pepper or diet doctor pepper in a saucepan
(11:23):
till its steams, then pour over thin slices of lemon
hot doctor pepper. That's a hot idea. Okay. I am
a weirdo that will drink soda without ice. I don't
mind a warm soda if it hasn't been in the fridge.
I'm very European this way. I'm not really uh actually
heat it up soda.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, that's awful.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Having just as an example, having bought a doctor pepper
and had it in the car and left the car
for a couple of hours in the summertime to go
into the store or whatever, they come out and unthinkingly
took a swig of that car hot doctor pepper. That
sounds bad to me. I mean, my thing is I
(12:08):
guess here's here's where I'm getting hung up. Part of
why I love sodas like many people, I love the
bubbles like that's that's part of the magic. It's why
I always want a soda in my hand, essentially of
some type, and that is gonna get rid of all
the bubbles and then you just have hot sugar juice. Ah. Yeah,
(12:30):
Which I guess you could make the argument, like what
do you think like warm punches are. But I'm also
not super into those. But yeah, I think that's that's
where I'm like, no, thank you, I don't I don't
care for it. And of course now there are many
(12:50):
many flavors and many many things, and they've done all
this stuff. But Hot Doctor Pepper really got my attention. Yeah,
that would be a great cover band of some sort.
Hot Doctor Pepper. Not for me, not for me anyway.
So many beverages, so much beverage talk I like about
of beverage history anyway, but those ones were fun to discuss.
(13:20):
This week, we talked about Mary Dyer and some of
the other folks who were executed for being Quakers in
colonial Massachusetts. I went down the biggest, biggest rabbit hole
about exactly where executions were taking place. What did you find?
(13:41):
Pretty much everything that is specifically about Mary Dyer and
is specifically about the other especially the other two people
who were executed before she was, they just say the
place of execution.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And that is all it says.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And like, there are other people who were also executed
around the same time in the seventeenth century, and some
of those do more specifically say that, like at that
point the place of execution was on Boston Neck. Boston
Neck doesn't exist anymore because on one side of Boston
Neck was the Back Bay, and on the other side
(14:20):
of Boston Neck was another body of water.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
All of that is filled in now, so like there's
no more narrow strip of land right there. But a
lot of people who described they're coming into Boston talked
about crossing Boston Neck and coming to a wall and
a gallows, and it was like outside of Boston, on
the other side of this wall on Boston Neck is
where the gallows was. There was a guy named Michael J.
(14:48):
Cannavan who delivered a paper in nineteen eleven in which
he walked through where other executions had taken place. He
walked through some of the vague things that people say
said about Mary Dye or other people, like there was
somebody who was like and then she was taken about
a mile and about a mile wouldn't have put her
(15:10):
on Boston Common, It would have put her on Boston Neck.
There was apparently a couple of decades later, Quakers in
Massachusetts were trying to like enclose the burial the burial
area where the people had been buried and to mark
their graves, which Massachusetts didn't want to do. But they
(15:36):
didn't really specifically say where that was, like where the
enclosure was trying to happen.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Was it on Boston Common? Was it on Boston Neck?
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And then the same person somewhat later talked about passing
by the place where the Quakers had tried to put
a little fence up, but was on the way to Dorchester,
and and he definitely would have gone down Boston Neck
on the way to Dorchester, but might also have gone
by Boston Common.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Not clear. None of this.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Was helpful, And so after looking at this for just
a huge amount of time, I was like, you know,
who might know Jake from Hub History Because Hub History
is a podcast that has been around for like two
hundred and seventy something episodes. It is just about Boston history.
Jake and I have forgotten the name of the woman
(16:30):
who was also hosting at the time. She's moved on
to other projects, but he had a co so that like,
they already did a Mary Dire episode, and in that
episode they described as happening on.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Boston Neck.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
But as we were going back and forth about it,
I was like, I still don't know though, Like I
really thought when I asked him this question on Twitter
on a Saturday, I thought the answer was either going
to be, oh, yes, here is a great source, or
it was gonna be I actually don't.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Know of one.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
But instead he very graciously spent way more time than
I expected, sending me a whole bunch of links to
a whole bunch of primary sources that to me just
made it more confusing. One of the things that I
think happened though, is that eventually hangings were definitely carried
out on Boston Common, and the same execution site on
Boston Common was used for a while. So then when
(17:21):
in the like later eighteenth and nineteenth century, people started
writing history books about the history of Boston, they were
used to the hangings being carried out on the Common,
and so that was like when this other piece of
common land on Boston Neck came up and was also
just called something like the common Land, like their mind
(17:43):
kind of filled in the blank of Boston the place
that we know of as a public park today. So
I it just was, it was so so much, so
much time that I spent on that without really feeling
like I had come to an actual answer, but the
(18:03):
idea that it was definitely on Boston Common is like
almost everywhere. So another thing is, as I was thinking
about this whole Boston Common question, I was like, you know,
it would be kind of ironic because with that statue
in front of the State House, she's basically looking out
(18:24):
at Boston Common. She would just be sort of in
perpetuity looking at her execution and burial place. Oh so
number one, there's all the questions I just talked about.
Number two though, just because of the layout of the
park and the layout of the State House, she is
not actually looking at the Boston It's not actually looking
(18:45):
at Boston Common.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
There's a building in the way. What she's actually looking
at as a Dunkin Donuts. Heaven. There's just a whole
different and very Massachusetts thing.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
America runs on. Duncan Tracy, She's fine, I guess, so yeah,
if you don't know, there's a lot of dunkin Donuts
in Massachusetts. Personally, I like the Mary Dier statue better
than the Anne Hutchinson one. And one of the reasons
that the Mary Dire statue has always caught my eye
(19:17):
is that it has a simplicity to it, which totally
makes sense because it is about a Quaker woman by
a Quaker sculpture, and like, simplicity is a value among Quakers,
and so she's wearing very simple clothing. She's sitting on
a bench that looks like maybe the bench in the
meetinghouse that where she would have attended services. She's not
(19:37):
actually looking at the dunkin donuts. She's looking more downward,
and it just it's a statue that I feels like
it has a peaceful contemplativeness to it while also feeling determined,
which I think just reflects a lot of things about her.
The one of Anne Hutchinson. There's Anne. She has her
(20:00):
arm around a little girl, which is I'm pretty sure
supposed to be her daughter, Susannah, and so she's like
one arm is around the little girl, the other arm
she's holding a bible to her breast, and she's sort
of looking heavenward. And it's just a lot more ostentatious
to me in the way that it kind of portrays everything.
(20:21):
And so it's also harder to get a look at
from the sidewalk because in addition to it being farther
away from the sidewalk, there's some I don't know if
it's construction or landscape work going on, but there's a
bunch of temporary fencing right now between the sidewalk and
the statue, so it's just not as easy to get
a good look at unless you want to get on
the other side of the fence, which I think you
(20:43):
can do.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Maybe not all the time, but I think you can
do so anyway.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Statue talk, Yeah, I kind of cracked up that we
have done two shows about heresy right on each other's heels. Yeah,
but like in ways that played out so drastically differently.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
For sure, one is like a bunch of dudes kind
of slap fighting, and this one is much graver.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I did not get into it in the episode, but
I did read a whole paper about how this event
influenced sort of Quaker's views of themselves and of their
religion and also sort of the mythological mythologizing, as a
(21:33):
better word, the story that the United States tells about itself. Yeah,
because the colony, like colonial Boston, you could argue, had
a lot more sustained part of like the growth of
(21:54):
the United States as a nation than the colony at
Plymouth colony at Plymouth has its whole different issues, right,
But the colony at Plymouth didn't publicly hang for people
for being coakers, Right, So this paper kind of argued
that maybe one of the reasons that there is more
(22:17):
of a focus on this not very accurate story of
like the First Thanksgiving and the Colony at Plymouth and
all that is because then you don't have to talk
about these incidents of like religious persecution and hangings.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I mean, here's what I I love is not the
right word, but here your's what intrigues me about this
whole story. This is such a good examination of the
psychology of fear, right, because on the one hand, humans
(22:55):
fear the unexpected and the fear change, and so right,
there's that, and it's like, you know, you can't help
but think. I can't help but think. And I'm sure
many people feel the same as you. Hear it, Like,
here's a woman who lost her child and probably you know,
(23:16):
was grieving that, and somehow, in the midst of that pain,
also became an outcast because people were so scared that
somehow the bad thing that happened to her meant that
God was angry and they were afraid that a bad
(23:37):
thing might happen to them if they did not cast
her out. And it's like, it's interesting in the way
that like groupthink in situations like that can cause fear
to supersede any kind of compassion. Sure, and I'm always
very intrigued by these these kinds of things where it's
(23:57):
like that is a woman who just loves lost a child. Yeah,
she's got her own stuff going on. You don't need
to be like this, But they did because they were terrified,
which is weird. There are a number of people who
have drawn conclusions about like Mary Dyer's baby and like
(24:20):
how that baby would have been diagnosed today, and the
same for Ann Hutchinson's mishearage. And I didn't put any
of that in there because I'm like, we are talking
about somebody who exhumed a baby that had been buried
months before and then interpreted what they saw through this
lens of like monstrousness. I'm like, I don't That's not
(24:44):
a lot of scientific rigor being applied there. It's very
thin evidence to try to make a diagnosis out of.
So I did not feel comfortable, even though there are
a lot of people that have made that I was like,
I don't feel comfortable really putting that in there. I
had to go back into Boston for a totally different reason,
for a different episode. And while I was there, I
(25:07):
as I was walking in the direction I needed to walk,
I walked past the Merryder statue and I looped back
and I was like, is she really.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Looking at the dunkin Donuts?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
She is? And then I was like, let me go
look at the Anne Hutchinson statue, even though that's not
the way that I'm walking, And like walked whole way
and was like, that is a lot farther back from
the road than I. Like, it's odd how that stretch
of like Park and Land and State House is kind
of laid out in a way that's definitely not square, right.
You end up with like one side of the Stayhouse
(25:36):
way farther back from.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
The road than the other.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
So anyway, if you go walking around Boston, we got
a lot of statues and they all have stories they
do they do. On that same walk, there were a
couple other statues that I made note of.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I was like, who is this person?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I got to look them up because I'm intrigued by
this statue.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
So Happy Friday.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And if you've got great stuff going on this weekend,
I hope it's great. If your weekend is not looking
this great, you know, I hope you're able to take
a minute for yourself. I've been trying very hard to
carve out some moments for my own self every day,
even if something's going on, it's trying to prevent that.
We'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow. We will
(26:22):
be back Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff You
Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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