Behind the Scenes Minis: Fish Sandwich

Holly and Tracy discuss how neither of them like Sloppy Joes, and a cocktail recipe Holly found during research. Tracy shares how very much she adores Marjorie Courtenay-Latimer.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Honley Frye and
I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about sandwiches. We did.
I will talk about sandwiches all day long. Here's an

(00:25):
interesting thing that came up. We talked at the end
in the Ruben Origin story about Elizabeth Wile or weel.
I don't know how she pronounces it, so my apologies
if it's wrong. And she wrote several of the articles
that I was reading because she had her own like
sort of dramatic play out of what happened when she

(00:45):
initially shared her family story, which is that a food
historian named Andrew Smith, who has written a lot of
food histories, reached out and was kind of like, you
are wrong, wrong, wrong, And then she and her husband,
and particularly her husband really started to dig until they
could find a primary source, which is why we know
that the oldest one is from nineteen thirty four, because

(01:07):
he got the Nebraska Historical Society, I think, involved, and
they found one in their archives, and I was taken
aback a little bit because she very much shares this
entire story of their disagreement and how it played out,
and I'm like, I wouldn't do that. I'd be too scared.

(01:29):
But it's interesting, and listen, I'm just glad we have
a ruben sandwich. That's all I need. It's all I need.
We were going to talk about how we both dislike
Sloppy Joe's. I hate them. I hate them too. They
were a staple in my household growing up, Like there

(01:50):
was just there was sort of a rotation of the
things that we regularly ate for dinner, and Sloppy Joe's
was in the rotation. And I was like, I hate this.
This is effectively chili on a bun. Well, but there's
no beans. There are chilies that don't have beans at all.

(02:13):
All of these foods are on my no fly list. Yes,
So I hated that you bite into it and the
stuff comes out everywhere, and I hated how it made
the bun wet. I just hated it and it and

(02:37):
unlike Holly, I did not have a viscerally negative reaction
to the idea of chili. I was always like, why
don't we just have chili and not this hamburger bun
to go with it? Right? And my mom would make
chili that she would serve over rice, like there were
other ways to make the chili stretch with some or
you know whatever, the meat and sauce stretch with I'm

(03:00):
kind of sauce at our house, whether it was spaghetti
with spaghetti sauce or chili over rice or whatever. And
I was just always like, like, I hate it. Why
do this version when other options are a thing? Right?
It wasn't like I hated it enough to have a
standoff with my mother, which I did with some other
foods that I cannot deal with, But I was just

(03:21):
I was like, I don't understand. Why were we are
choosing to have this obviously inferior presentation of meat and
tomato sauce. Yeah, I don't don't. I don't have at all.
I don't like messiness, and we didn't mention in the episode,
but like some people do, theirs much sweeter and include

(03:43):
like barbecue sauce. I think some of the earliest, like
newspaper write ups before there were canned Sloppy Joe sauces
on the market, were like you can use a little
tomato paste and barbecue sauce, which you can. I guess
if this is your jam. I don't like any of it. Blick,
it's messy. I don't want sloppy, sticky glorp on me right, No,

(04:07):
thank you. It's just occurred to me that these objections
that I have to sloppy Joe's I do not have
over like a pulled pork barbecue sandwich because the pork,
the pulled pork holds together in a way that ground
beef and a sauce does not get ground beef, and
like loose meat sandwiches, no just no open face it

(04:30):
and milk cheese on top and will get closer. Yeah.
I might be willing to eat it, but I also
don't want it sweet. Now, Dad, if you're listening to this,
please don't play it for mom. Listen. My hat is
off to anybody who cooks for anybody. And if someone
cooks me a homemade meal, even if it's something I
don't like, I will eat it because I appreciate that

(04:51):
they took the time to do it. But this would
never be my first choice. I will never make it
in my home myself. I don't think I have had
a sloppy Joe since leaving my parents' home to live
on my own. I'm trying to remember. It's been a
long time, a very long time. Yeah, I just don't
love it, you know. I love a hot brown. I love.

(05:17):
Of course. That's another one that like you don't pick
up you eat it with a fork and a knife
because it's it's a big mess, and it feels sort
of in that same genre as like a krooke monsieur
to me, And I do like a crooked monsieur. I
love a chrooked monsieur. You make it a croke madomin,
I'm all over it, say Frida egg on top. Yeah, love,

(05:38):
I love, I love, but I do like a hot brown,
and it made me want to make them. Do you remember.
I didn't remember, and my memory was jogged in an article,
but I didn't have time to like go chase it
down right. We talked about, uh, the introduction of the
Manwich brand sauce, which inherently has had some problems hmm,

(06:01):
of it being somehow a gendered sandwich. Yeah, weirdly gendered
for some reason. And they had an ad campaign not
that long ago, but I don't remember. I mean it's
been a little while. That was kind of like hyper
masculine in its thing and suggesting that like, if men

(06:22):
did not like this sandwich, there was something wrong with
them or whatever, and they pulled it very quickly because
people were like, what are you doing? To their credit,
they immediately pulled it. But I'm still like, how did
that ever make it to air? I don't. Yeah, I
remember like man which ads when I was a kid
being on TV having a weird like, I was like,

(06:44):
why is it sandwich for men? I don't understand a lot. Clearly,
I'm just not understanding about sloppy Japs. Yeah, me either.
I'm with you. I don't get the appeal. I don't,
but I do know people that love them. So we
also mentioned that I wanted to talk about the reviews
of the newly opened newly in the last ten years,

(07:05):
Sloppy Joe's in Havana. Yeah, if you go, like on
trip Advisor and you read the reviews, they are so
desperately polarized that it sounds like some people are going
to the real Sloppy Joe's and some people might be
going to a different place that's using the same name

(07:27):
because they don't sound like the same place at all.
Oh wow, And I don't know if that's the case.
But like some of them are like, oh my gosh,
this was such an elegant meal. It was incredible, Like
I loved it. It's a bar, but like the cocktails
are amazing and the food was really good, and I'm
so glad that the Historic Society brought this back. And
then others are like the only thing they have on

(07:48):
the menu is tuna, and I'm like what, Like, I
really don't know what's going on there where these are
so completely disparate. But should I get to Havanah, I'm
I'll find out. Okay, we have not talked about the

(08:09):
Jewel of Discovery in the research. Okay, I mentioned in
the episode. I don't remember which of us talked about it,
that there was a book that came out in nineteen
thirty two which is the Cocktail Menu with instructions for
the Havana Sloppy Joe's. And this book is fully available

(08:31):
online in digital form nice like where they have scanned
the whole book in on a site that does a
lot of old cocktail books. And it is such a
jewel because it has a lot of interesting cocktail recipes
in it if you're into that. But here there is
also a drink in it called the sloppy Joe, oh wow,
which sounds far more interesting to me than the sandwich.

(08:54):
I also don't like rapavieja or I clearly have a
problem with like shredded or ground meat. That is kind
of I don't dislike either of those inherently, but there's
something about in a sauce. It becomes I'm like, what
else is in this sauce? Like I just I'm not trusting.
Apparently you're not really into soup sea there. Oh no,

(09:15):
I do not like gloopy food. That's the bottom line.
It's bisc or bust. I was just telling my friend Kristin.
It has to be very thick and very creamy, and
I have to know who made it. I don't know
why I'm very weird about it because I will literally
eat food off the floor sometimes. I don't know why.
This is the place where I'm persninkity, but not just

(09:35):
like I'm not wandering around the earth going look food
on the floor, but if I drop a thing, I'll
sometimes eat it. Anyway. The drink called a sloppy Joe,
which I have not made yet but I am absolutely
going to, is one part pineapple juice, one part cognac
and one part port wine with a few drops of
grenadine and curisau and you shake it with cracked ice

(09:57):
and then you serve it in a tall glass and
sounds really interesting to me, and I'm going to make it.
I'm making a puzzled face. But it's just like they're
just kept being more what is your puzzlement? I don't
I don't know. They just it started with pineapple, and

(10:18):
I was like, okay, and I think my brain kind
of built out a drink from there and it was
not then the list of things that you were expecting
a teaki drink and not knyac and wine in it, right, yeah, right, yeah,
I actually think this sounds pretty darn good. I'm gonna
I'll report back, okay with the Sloppy Joe cocktail. But

(10:39):
I kind of just want to make a bunch of
drinks from that book because they there are a lot
of interesting ones that sounds fun, which put me in
the mind of I was like, oh, this is why
Ernest Hemingway like this. Listen, we all know Ernest Hemingway
loved to drink. Do you know what a death in
the afternoon is? I I feel like yes, but I'm not.

(11:02):
It's not gelling with the answer. It is a cocktail
that is generally some people say Hemingway invented this, uh huh,
and uh it is half by some measures. You'll see

(11:26):
different measures included. Some will say it is half champagne
half absinthe, and some will say it is just like
a flute of champagne, and then like you do a
jigger of absinthe, But jiggers come in all sizes, so like,
depending on how big your flute is, you're already into it.
But it's a lot, And I'm like, who I mean,
that's good for a once in a while. But I

(11:47):
was like, oh, no, wonder Hemingway like sloppyges. They made
a lot of interesting drinks. Now we know, now we know.
And then he just imported it into Key West in
his own version. This all makes sense to me. I
want to rubin so bad right now I can't. Yeah,
I don't think I've ever eaten one. It's just corn
beef and sauerkraut and thousand island dressing, this, thousand aves

(12:10):
and right, these just weren't ingredients that we had around
the house, right, But like you, I've been to delis
with you. I know you've had access I have. So
here's kind of a funny story. Uh, my dad goes
to visit like his one living aunt as to the
community where she lives, and that is what they get

(12:34):
every time because it's the one. And I think there
have been at least two times that I have been
visiting my parents and there has been a plan that
I'm going to accompany Dad on this visit, We're all
going to get rubens. And then every time something has
gone wrong and like either the visit hasn't happened, or
I have needed to stay with my mom or something

(12:54):
like that. Yeah, I don't it's I think it's just
one of those things. Similarly to like a cob salad,
where since I never really had one growing up, by
the time I became an adult and was in restaurants
that served sandwiches and salads and stuff, I already had
other sandwiches and salads that are favorites. I do like

(13:16):
to try new foods. I mean that's not something I
shy away from doing ever, right, But when it comes
to things like a salad or a sandwich or whatever,
A lot of times, like there's a thing that's the
thing that I want, and I stick with that. I'm
going to totally get a Ruben though you've convinced me
I should try one. I hope you like it. If
you don't save it, freeze it, I'll eat it when

(13:38):
we're together next. I don't let no Ruben be left behind.
That's okay. I'll bring it on the plane with me
to Iceland. I mean, yeah, I'll do it. Speaking of
which is a good time to mention we're going to Iceland.
They are going to Iceland the first week of November,
the second to the eighth. If you would like to go.

(13:59):
This is in in the next in the series of
our fun international trips that we've been doing each year
almost except the pandemic messed up that whole plan. We're
going to Iceland. We're going to spend some time in
Raykovic and some time in vic and we're gonna eat
interesting things and visit historical places and you can come

(14:19):
to You can do that at Defined Destinations dot com.
That's Defined Destinations dot com. Uh, and it should be
right there on the main page for it, says Ice.
I'm mailed in my mail in voting application, so I'm
set for that. You are set. Yes, it happens during
the election here in the US, so be mindful if

(14:40):
you want to sign up that that may be part
of the situation, part of the planning. Yeah, you want to,
you want to plan ahead for that, but we uh
envision a very good time and you can get all
the details there on the Defined Destination website. This week

(15:03):
we talked about Marjorie Courtney Latimer and the celacanth. Sure did.
Boy do I love her? She's yeah, I love her
trumping around in repurposed nursing uniform and stockings, ripping those
stockings all to shreds, doing her naturalist work. I would
not wear stockings to do that or address But the

(15:26):
fact that she was absolutely adore the fact that a
man was like, yeah, I want to marry you, but
you can't be doing this naturalist thing, and she was like,
we're breaking up. Then I love that. Don't love the
fact that when she did finally find somebody that seemed
to release support these interests, that he died. That was

(15:50):
very sad, But I love her. I tried to track
down as much as I could about her relationships with
the like the indigenous population of Southern Africa, because that
whole thing is really fraught obviously, and ethnographic collections and

(16:15):
museums can also be really fraught. But based on everything
I was able to find, it does seem like that
she was approaching these kinds of things with as much
respect as possible given, especially like the time that she
was living. Yeah, for reasons I don't know, she was
the only person in her family to go buy a

(16:36):
hyphenated Courtney Latimer last name. A lot of the rest
of her family just went by Latimer, or her sisters
when they had sons, would put Latimer or would put
Courtney as like the son's middle name. But she made
it her hyphenated last name, which I liked. I don't

(16:57):
know why I liked that, I just did. I also
needed I needed her colleague J LB. Smith. I needed
him to calm down. I get it. I have absolutely
worried myself into sleeplessness over something that was within my control,
well not within my control anyway, But his letters to

(17:20):
her are so overwhelming in how worried he is about
the fish guts, and I understand the reasons for being
upset about it, but I just feel like being in
her position, getting a letter that's like, you must preserve
the fish's viscera, and it's like it's too late, like

(17:43):
they were rotten. We didn't have anywhere to store one
hundred and twenty five pound fishes viscera. Keep it like
I was doing my best. It's clear that she was
doing her best. And it's also clear that as he understood,

(18:03):
like was catching up with the situation as it unfolded,
that he also understood that she did her best. She
did her best, Like he never none of the letters
that I read came across as criticizing her once he
knew what the situation was like, he doesn't seem he
never said anything to her that was like you are

(18:28):
so bad of your job for having Like, none of
it was ever like that saying that it was the
biggest tragedy to zoology. I was like, you didn't really
need to put that in writing. But he does seem
to have been once he understood the situation, like, Hey,
you really did your best, and in a lot of
ways did more than a person could reasonably be expected

(18:51):
to do. You found a way to preserve this one
hundred and twenty five or however many pound fish in
the summer overs in a place where there wasn't refrigeration
for it, right, and no one wanted to help, And
no one wanted to help because everybody was like, I
don't want that stinky fish. Her account of it was

(19:12):
definitely like, this fish was literally alive this morning. It
does not stink. It will stink if you don't let
me put it in the morgue. So anyway, I love her.
I do like that. Smith when it came to other
people criticizing her, was very publicly vocal about no, no,

(19:37):
you do not understand. Yeah, you know, at a time
when it was probably very easy and natural for other
people in that field to presume that she was a
foolish woman ding dong who didn't handle it right to
have like somebody that was respected and male to go like, no,

(19:58):
you're all wrong, you don't understan And I named the
fish for her because she did so much. She's the
reason we have this, it's the reason we have any
of the fish at all. Well, And I would love
for him to have pointed out, like the first, the
first dude that she talked to you about it was like,

(20:19):
it's just a fish. I'm going on a yeah, I Also,
we've already rerun the episode on the piltdown man hoax.
Uh huh, we have already run that as a Saturday Classic.
But you know, when I was, when I was reading

(20:41):
about all of this, and I, you know, found this
article where what was that guy's name, Arthur Smith Woodward.
I want to say, that's what his name was. I
scrolled past it in my outline. Yeah, when I found
that he had written this where he was this article
where he was like because because its value was not

(21:02):
appreciated only the exterior, And I was like, yeah, that's
not what happened, Arthur Smith Woodward. Also, you don't know
this yet, but you have no room to be casting
aspersions on anybody else's judgment. You're going to be real
discredited before. Yeah, you told everyone that the skull that

(21:27):
was pieced together with dental putty was the missing link.
So you don't you don't get to, you know, try
to subtly shame a woman museum curator in your papers.
You are not the arbiter of good specimen judgments. Really
not super not anyway. I keep saying I love her,

(21:52):
I really do do you love her? I do I
love her? I kept finding things where I was like, oh,
and this is also great nursing uniforms to just being like,
all right, I'm not going to be a nurse anymore,
but I made all these uniforms, so that's what I'm
gonna wear for now. This is mr personal style. My
personal styles is that it does kind of mystify me

(22:16):
a little bit that people were like, yeah, we are
going to trust this seven year old judgment about which
mushrooms are safe to eat. But apparently she did know
by that point which mushrooms were safe to eat. So anyway,
I am very glad that I stopped being sort of
preemptively concerned about the availability of information and finally got

(22:41):
her up to the top of the list. Love it,
Love it. This is your weekend coming up. You know,
if you like to go out into the woods and
look at bird nests and stuff, I hope you get
to do a whole lot of that. And if not,
if you're an indoor kid, I hope there is some
great video game or book reading in your few. We'll

(23:01):
be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand
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