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July 14, 2014 30 mins

Makeup has a rich and lengthy history that spans the globe and crosses cultures. From 10,000 B.C.E. to the 20th century, people have been using cosmetics to enhance their looks -- sometimes with unintended side effects.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly cry and I'm Tracy P. Wilson. So here's
the thing that everybody sees all the time and may
or may not think verty much about it is makeup.

(00:22):
It's such a common part of our society that we
really don't think about it outside our own use normally
unless that is like your field of interest or career.
But it really has a rich and lengthy history that
spans the globe, acrosses cultures. Uh, it goes so far
back and it's been in so many sort of places
in terms of where it's trended and what kind of
things have been used. So that's what we're talking about today.

(00:45):
And uh, just to kind of set it up for you,
we're going to jump around a little bit from location
to location and talk about like how things developed in
each location. So the timeline isn't going to be strictly followed,
although we will start in the oldest known location of
makeup and then kind of end up in the West
in the early half of the twentieth century where it
really became an actual industry. And so we're covering this

(01:08):
very wide swath, so I feel like I need to, um,
you know, just give everybody a heads up up front
that there's probably there's well, there's definitely stuff that isn't
gonna get covered. Uh. And if we miss something that
you're fond of or you know, you want to know
more about, or if it's your favorite thing and you
wish we had mentioned it, that's always a good reason
to send us an email. Uh. And we'll have the

(01:29):
contact info at the end of the episode like we
always do so. Uh. For right now, climb into your
time machine or your tartists if that's your thing, and
we're gonna whisk away. First to ancient Egypt. So as
early as ten thousand BC. In Egypt, moisturizing emolliance were
being used to protect people's skin against the very dry

(01:50):
desert climate, and perfumes were also popular during this time.
They were pretty much used in ceremonial religious events. And
it's interesting because these included ingredients such as peppermint, lily, lavender, almond, oile, camemeal,
things that are still popular in cosmetics today. Later on
in Egypt's history, so around four thousand to b C,

(02:14):
that's when we see the first known use of true makeup. Galina,
which is the mineral form of lead sulfide, and malachite,
which is a green huge carbonate of copper were used
as eye enhancements, and you see these really often in
Egyptian art. These are minerals that would be ground down
and combined with burned almonds. Lead and ash also ground

(02:38):
into a fine powder, and this created coal eyeliner. So
one of the most popular looks is that green shading
would be used on the lower eye, sort of under
the eye, while the charcoal gray and you know, solid
black would be used for the top lid. And this
is creating a look that sometimes it's still in a
stylized version mimic today and called the Cleopatra I all.

(03:00):
She actually falls a little bit later on the timeline
than this. During this time, it also became really popular
for people to carry around small makeup boxes with them
when they went to social events. These were sort of
the first evening clutches. Yeah, and they also sort of
represented a certain class level, like if you are a
very fancy person, you could have your own fancy makeup

(03:21):
box that you carried around with you. Uh, and Both
Egyptian women and men used lipstick as well, and some
lip color during this time was made from a combination
of a purplish red dye which was taken from seaweed.
There was also a bit of iodine and a bromine
man nite that were used. But this is one of
those many instances where people suffer for what's fashionable, because

(03:43):
since bromine mannite is a toxic plant derivative, this made
the potential price of you very very steep, not just
for the wearer but also anyone that the wearer kissed.
It could really cause some very severe illness and even
death with a surprisingly small dose. During Cleopatra's era, which
her reign was from fifty one to thirty BC, lip

(04:05):
color was a really big trend. Ground carmine beetles gave
her lip tent, this lush red toad, while non royals
had to go with this mixture of watered down clay. Yeah,
you'll sometimes also see accounts that say that she combined
carmine beetles and ground ants to create this color that
she liked. Um And one of the interesting benefits of

(04:28):
these various concoctions that were being used by the ancient
Egyptians for beauty, specifically for their eyes, was that they
also had antibacterial properties. In two thousand nine, a team
of scientists published a report in Analytical Chemistry detailing the
study that they conducted using fifty two makeup samples and
these are all samples that are held by the LOUVER

(04:49):
and this team used electron microscopy and X ray diffraction
to analyze this makeup and they were able to identify
galina which is mentioned above, and it was used to
make dark tones as well as uh lighter colored compounds
of seracite, lorianite, and phosgenite. And all of these chemicals
are lead based, so the lead content acted as a

(05:12):
toxin to kill bacteria. Specifically, bacterial infections of the eye
were a big problem in ancient Egypt, so this use
of heavy coal around the eye probably did a good
job of warding off a lot of those infections. We
also know from art that cosmetics are believed to be
a form of magic and ancient Egypt, so the researchers
make the case that these antibacterial formulations on the part

(05:36):
of ancient Egyptian chemists were deliberate and they weren't just
this accidental offshoot of the quest for beauty. Yeah, the
initial use may have been but they develop it, and
there's a passage in their report that reads quote. One
cannot evidently go so far as to propose that the
lorianite was purposely introduced into the composition of the makeup

(05:56):
because of any recognized antibacterial properties. Yet one can presume
that ancient Egyptian chemists recognized empirically that whenever this white
precipitate was present in the makeup paste, their bearers were
enjoying better health, and thus decided to amplify this empirical
protective function by specifically manufacturing lauranite. So the problem here,

(06:20):
which was probably obvious, is that lad, while toxic to bacteria,
is also toxic to human beings. So there was a problem. Yeah, Yeah,
so that was is sort of the legacy of Egypt
is that I think we hear a lot more about
sort of the lead being toxic to people, which it is,
of course, but um it also kind of helping them

(06:42):
with their their vision and to prevent ocular problems is
less discussed. So having hit on Egypt, we're now going
to pop over to Asia. Around three thousand BC, and
this is where we, to the best of our knowledge,
we first see the use of people coloring their face
your nails, which was happening in China at this time

(07:02):
uh and it's often referred to as the first nail polish,
but in truth this was more of a stained situation.
Color pigments were mixed in with egg, beeswax, gum, arabic,
and gelatine to create these stains, and vibrant or deep
colors were reserved exclusively for royals, whereas other people would
have to go with much paler tones. If we move
ahead into about fifteen hundred BC, in both China and Japan,

(07:26):
the aesthetic of paleness became the pinnacle of beauty, and
rice powder started to be used to create this illusion
of a flawless white complexion. And at this point Hannah
dies were also used to stain here as well as
facial features. So it's almost like if you've ever seen
someone have their makeup tattooed, uh, which sometimes women will

(07:47):
still get eyeliner tattoos. This was sort of like the
the semi permanent version, because henna will last a much
longer time than if you use coal. And we can
hop over to grease. At about the same time as
fingernails stains are coming popular. In China and Greece, having
white lead face paint was really all the rage, and

(08:07):
they would add a flush to their cheeks over this
white paint using this compound that was made of crushed mulberries,
and they would crush the mulberries down and then use
the juice as a stain. Fake eyebrows also became really popular,
and they were usually made with the hair of oxen,
which sounds very itchy to me, it does. It also
sounds kind of funny to me, just the idea of uh,

(08:30):
you know, augmented fake eyebrows, since it's not the aesthetic
of the modern world for the most part, certainly not
the western modern world. Like the idea of people purposely
giving themselves really heavy eyebrows, that strikes me as kind
of entertaining. So if we move forward a couple of
thousand years in the history of Greece to one thousand

(08:50):
BC E, you'll see that the white complexion was still
very favored at this time and the white lead was
still used, but chalk was growing in popular as an alternative.
Lip color also became really popular and it was usually
made with clay and red iron. UH. And now we're
gonna once again shift gears and locations, and we're going

(09:12):
to Mesopotamia. So it's not a long journey at this point,
and we're once again going back to three thousand BC.
And this is actually the space between three thousand and
fiftd BC that these things were happening uh. And Mesopotamian
ladies at this time had a pretty spectacular approach to
lip color. They would actually grind semi precious stones to

(09:33):
dust and use that dust as a lip and a
face adornment. There was also a lot of use of
spiced perfumes during this time, and coal was also used
to line both the eyes and the eyebrows. People in
Mesopotamia also used tanna as a nail stain UH. And
perfume concoction was actually taking pretty seriously in this area

(09:53):
by the ninth century. I feel like perfume on its
own could be a whole other podcast. So this won't
be completely in depth, but we'll mention it a couple
of times since it is technically a cosmetic as well.
So at this point we have crossed over from BC
to C At this point or Common era UH and
perfumer Yakuba Kindi, who lived from about eight hundred and

(10:14):
three to eight seventy wrote a book called The Book
of Perfume Chemistry and Distillation, and this described the uses
of many essential oils. UH and even former podcast subject
Avicenna introduced new chemistry concepts around this time that really
changed the distillation of alcohol for both medicinal and perfume
you significantly. So there was some pretty important groundwork being

(10:38):
laid in this area at this time. In the year
one hundred, in Rome, a personal interest of mine because
this has always been a trouble spot for me, is
when pimple treatment really hit the scene. People in Rome
were using a mixture of barley flour and butter to
apply to blemishes to try to soothe them and remove
the irritation. And this is another location where we see

(11:02):
a fingernail color becoming popular. They used a combination of
animal fat and blood UH and then applied that to
the nails to give a pink to red tint to
the to their fingernails, depending on the formulation, like it
would kind of vary on how pale or deep it was.
Just by playing with the amounts of blood in the formula.
Over in India between three and four hundred is when

(11:25):
Hannah became really popular as both the hair dye and
in Mendy art. Hannah and Mendy are both still around
as popular cosmetic practices in India today. Mendy is the
like the Hanna artwork on people's skin. Yeah, and it's
often so beautiful, like to see all of the really
intricate designs. Um and before we get to Europe and

(11:46):
kind of what was going on there throughout all of
these times, do you want to take a quick word
from a sponsor? Sure? Alright, So now jumping into Europe.
While there is definitely evidence of the use of rouge
cole bath oils and perfumes in the Roman Empire at
the start of the Common Era, the fall of the

(12:06):
Roman Empire in the fifth century really marks this sort
of vanishing in cosmetics in Europe for a time, at
least as any sort of common practice. It was probably
happening in pockets or in some of the very you know,
sort of upper echelons of society, but it really was
not a common thing for people to wear make up
there for a bit. That started to change around twelve
hundred when thanks to the Crusades, perfumes and other cosmetics

(12:30):
started traveling from them at least into Europe and were
reintroduced into the culture. And between fourteen hundred and fifteen
hundred this is when we really first start to see
cosmetics as an industry start to heat up. And this
was happening in Italy and France primarily. Other places in
Europe were using them, but this is where they were
mostly being made, but even so the concept of perfumes

(12:54):
and cosmetics was really still the privilege of the upper classes.
This is also the period when art and science of
perfume as we know it today was born in France. Yeah,
we mentioned perfume happening in other places earlier, but this
is really where like what we would call like our
today's sort of perfume production and development. This is really

(13:15):
where the modern versions of perfume started. And between fifteen
hundred and sixteen hundred, you know, we are now into
Elizabethan era. And it's no secret that Queen Elizabeth the
first popularized red hair in Europe. Uh she also as
the Virgin Queen, was a trend setter when it came
to the use of white lead for creating this illusion

(13:37):
of youth. Cerus was made from white lead combined with vinegar,
and it caused a number of skin problems. It caused
the skin to become gray and shriveled, and Queen Elizabeth
is said to have developed this pockmarked appearance to her
natural skin, which she just covered with progressively heavier and
heavier layers of cerus. Yes, of the thing that was

(14:00):
really ruining her skin, she was also using to cover
up that ruination, and it just kind of kept getting
worse and worse. Uh. And it began to be noticed
that this white lead based paint was really causing a
problem with people's skin in their health. And so while
some women opted instead to use egg whites, they would
just use plain egg whites and sort of glaze their face, uh,

(14:23):
to create this illusion of a smoother, paler complexion. There
were plenty of others that just thought that applying any
cosmetics was going to create a health threat because they
believed it compromised circulation. People later figured out that cerus
was toxic and it was linked to a number of
physical problems, including facial tremors and muscle paralysis, which, given

(14:45):
that it contained so much lead is not surprising. The
toxic compound was also recognized as being lethal with cumulative use,
and it's possible that it contributed to Queen Elizabeth's death. Yeah,
she was also getting older. I mean, there were probably
a few different factors involved in that, but it is
sometimes mentioned as one of the possible contributors and in

(15:09):
less dangerous beauty doings, though Elizabeth the First had also
used a lip color that was made I find this
so charming from beeswax and crushed flowers. I'm glad you
said that because I feel the exact same way. Especially
it sounds much less horrifying. Ever, the ruined pockmarked skin
from the makeup she had been wearing prior so to

(15:29):
achieve the Queen's locks and even to get lighter blonde tones,
people used concoctions of sulfur, honey and alum. It was
sort of a renaissance version of sun in. If anybody
else remembers that product, it would be applied to the
hair and then exposed to the sun to create lighter
and brighter hair. And that's another thing that you know,

(15:51):
I mean, we mentioned sun In, which was very popular
in the eighties. Is the thing that people would spray
in their hair and had hydrogen peroxide and would lighten it.
But I also think of even like break at Tiffany's
where she would put lemon juice on her hair and
sit in the sun. It's the same concept. Yeah, that's
been around for a while. My mom and her sisters
who you know, we're growing up in the in the
forties and fifties would talk about putting lemon juice in

(16:13):
their hair and laying out in the sun. Yeah, don't
do that. It's bad for you. So please see a
license stylists, the colorists to change your hair color for
the hair, but for the laying out in the sun.
Not again, all of it's Uh, there are a number
of potential problems there, especially because there's a complete aside.

(16:35):
But some citrus will really react poorly with your skin
in the sun if it's exposed, and you can get
some really really dangerous and bad problems. So again we're
not saying to try any these beauty treatments. Uh. And
if you go online, in fact, there are places where
you can find like recipes for cosmetics that were popular
in Queen Elizabeth's era, but they will even say please

(16:56):
don't make these this is for historical use only, not
as an instruction manual for you to create toxins to
put on your face. I kind of do want to
make some lipstick out of beeswax and crushed flowers, though
I I worry it would be woefully disappointing and then
I would be like, why didn't I just buy something?
So in eighteen hundred, zinc oxide started to become popular

(17:16):
as a face powder, and of course this is a
much safer replacement for the lead and copper that we're
being used prior. And by this point in the timeline,
the use of makeup has permeated through almost all of
the classes and the development of cosmetics popularity throughout Europe,
specifically in Great Britain. UH was arrested a little bit

(17:37):
when Queen Victoria denounced makeup as completely improper, suitable only
for the stage, and it was makeups association with prostitutes
at this point that led her to this very vocal stance,
and so respectable women did not paint their faces. Makeup
did remain popular in France during this time, though, even
though respectable society in Britain and the America's did not

(18:00):
look upon it, favorably at all. It kind of reminds
me of the reality show Frontier House that was on PBS. Um,
they take the makeup away from all of the women
and some of them are extremely sad about that pact.
Uh So, remembering that France at this time was like, Nope,

(18:21):
We're still going to wear some makeup. It should not
surprise you that the first modern lipstick was actually manufactured
in Paris in eighty four. And this came wrapped in
silk paper, which just sounds so luxurious to me. And
it was made from dear tallow which is solid rendered
fat which sounds less glamorous, uh, castor oil and beeswax,

(18:42):
and just as had been used in Cleopatra's time, Carmine
die gave this lipstick its red tint. In the late
eighteen nineties, color for the lips and cheeks was offered
for the first time in the Sears Roebuck catalog. Yeah,
so at this point we're not just in Europe but
also into the America's and uh you know, kind of

(19:03):
Western culture at that point. But before we go on
to what starts to happen next, which is pretty exciting,
do you want to do another word from our sponsor. Sure,
So to return to the story of makeup, we're gonna
jump over to the early nine hundreds. After Victoria's death,
Edwardian society started to really embrace the idea of makeup
and cosmetics, although often the use of it was still

(19:26):
highly denounced, even by people who were benefiting from them.
This is basically the Edwardian equivalent of denying that you
got botox or had surgical touch ups. Yeah, people would
be like, oh, are you you know using me? Are
you wearing a lip tent? No, this is my natural
lip color. It was kind of funny. Uh. And this

(19:48):
is really the period when beauty salons became relatively common
in the Western world, although because of this denial mentality
about using any sort of cosmetics was still pretty common.
People also denied going to see these, you know, two
beauty salons. Patrons would actually often come and go through
a back or a side door so they wouldn't be seen. Uh.

(20:10):
Patronizing these establishments. Industrialization led to several developments that really
sewed the seeds of the cosmetics industry as we know
it today. There was the inventtion of photography, which meant
that people started having portraits made, you know, not sitting
for a portrait forever from a painter who was going
to maybe touch you up as he went, but actual photographs. Um,

(20:33):
it became pretty clear to people that having some makeup
on would make the picture look nicer. And since most
people had to save up for these photography sessions, they
had to really make them count. So people started really
relying on makeup as a way to make sure they
would look their best in the pictures that they were
spending so much money on. Yeah, I mean, this is

(20:53):
a time when you would maybe have your picture taken
a few times in your lifetime. Uh, So each of
the big shirts had to be the best possible. Uh.
And additionally, this is the time when mirrors became a
commonly manufactured item. So looking glasses have been around since
at least six thousand BC, and they were certainly familiar
objects in European high society and the Renaissance, but the

(21:16):
late eighteen hundreds in early nineteen hundreds was really the
first time that mirrors were inexpensive enough that they crossed
all class boundaries. And so this meant that everyone became
more aware of their day to day appearance. And this
meant that everyone grew a little more interested in cosmetics.
And then there were movies. As actors made the transition

(21:37):
from the stage to the screen, uh, their makeup had
to adapt. It quickly became clear that stage makeup did
not look good on film, which, if you've ever warned,
stage makeup is not a surprise. Stage makeup does not
look good anywhere except on stage. It was especially on film.
It was really too heavy and looked very clownish. And uh,

(21:59):
this is where famous names start to appear. Because Max Factor,
who was primarily a wigmaker at this time for film,
developed foundation paints that had a more subtle effect that
he really is often referred to as the inventor of
pancake makeup. And these makeups looked more natural on cinema
screens and he uh you know. This development happened in

(22:22):
nineteen fourteen, and this kicked off his now famous makeup company,
which initially catered exclusively to the acting world. A year later,
in nineteen fifteen, the Maybellene Company was founded by T. L.
Williams to sell an adapted version of his sister's petroleum
jelly and coal dust mascara to the public. This version

(22:43):
of mascara came in a cake form, and eventually mascara
went through a wax phase before becoming the liquid that
most people are more familiar with today. Um. However, maybe
Line still makes one of the most highly reviewed mascaras
among the general public and makeupists. Like, Yeah, that famous
sort of pink and green tube of mascara that maybel

(23:07):
in his manufactured for years and years and years. It's
really quite funny. If you ever talked to a makeup artist,
most of them will mention that that's still their favorite. Uh.
Just kind of interesting. It's been around for a hundred years,
not in that form, but the company has Uh. Also
in NIFT, the metal retractable lipstick tube was invented. So
this is when it went from being kind of a

(23:27):
a round cake that you would apply to actually being
a thing you could uh, you know, twist up and
down and toss in your handbag and not be a problem.
It was easy to carry, it was easy to apply
on the go. Although this is also a time when
stencils were marketed to assure that users could get like
that perfect Clara bo pouch. Uh, those would have been
a little trickier to tuck into a handbag because they

(23:49):
were sort of I'm estimating the sizes, but you know,
I've seen pictures of people where they look like they're
probably about a four by four four inch by four
inch card with this little kind of heart shaped lipstick
stencil cut out of the middle, and you would put
it over your lips and then apply your lipsticks that
it would be the perfect shape. After years of catering
to film stars, Max Factor decided to expand his business

(24:12):
by selling his formulas to the masses. And as the
decadence and the glamour of the flapper girl was on
the rise in the nine twenties, makeup, which is a
term he's said to have coined, made movie star looks
available to everybody, and this really started a landslide of popularity.
So before mass production, makeup had been a little bit tedious.

(24:34):
You know, people would have to either figure out ways
to kind of concoct their own or they would buy
these sort of bizarre formulations and have to apply them,
and they didn't look very natural, and uh, it was
just there were a lot of barriers to use. But
as it became easily purchased and easily applied, like you
didn't need a lot of special skills. It became very
quickly adopted into the mainstream. On average, the global beauty

(24:58):
market has grown about four point five percent each year
for the last twenty years, with some downward fluctuation concurrent
with economic issues. I think we actually have an article
on the website about the lipstick indicator. Yeah. Uh. And
today the global sales for cosmetics is estimated to be

(25:18):
about a hundred and seventy billion dollars a year, and
that breaks down to about forty billion in the America's
about sixty billion in Europe, about sixty billion in Australia
and Asia combined, and another ten billion in Africa. The
Western world spends the most per person on cosmetics, but
it is really just a shade ahead of Asia on this.

(25:39):
So it's interesting to me. It feels like, you know,
industrialization is kind of what has catapulted us into, you know,
almost this obsession with beauty and looks and uh, sort
of always being super self conscious about what we look like. Uh,
whereas before that maybe a little more relaxed. I had
thought about the role of people having easy access to

(26:01):
mirrors in sort of the perception of what beauty is
and what you should look like and how much care
you should put into your appearance. But it had never
dawned on me that photography played a role. Also, Yeah,
I mean it. You know, it's these various things that
kind of fold in on themselves and they kind of
add layers of consciousness to this this idea of beauty

(26:21):
and looks, and it's very easy, sort of, I think too,
to see how that eventually develops and becomes a bigger
and bigger thing. And you know, television changing that as well,
and seeing people on TV all the time who are
allegedly air quote normal, looking particularly beautiful, and wanting to
aspire to look the same as them, and how you
could see where we landed today where this is this

(26:43):
huge industry. So that is of a sort of, you know,
high level, glossy version of kind of how makeup has
developed around the world through the years. I want to
do I would love to go back and do more
on Asia, which we only briefly covered, because there's so
much great stuff there and I'm sure there are people
with instant image conjuring going on in their head, of

(27:04):
like Geisha with their beautiful and very specific makeup rules. Uh,
and some of the theatrical makeups that go on there. Uh.
And perhaps we will get to that on another episode,
but for today, that's where we're at. Uh. I also
have a bit of listener mail. Please read it and
you read it. It is about a boo boo that
I made, and I make it all the time, and
I promise I will make a concerted effort to not

(27:25):
do this so much. And it comes from our wonderful listener, Lauren,
And she says, Hi, ladies, I'm a big fan of
the podcast. I've been listening to some past episodes lately
and was thrilled to see the Bloomers and Beyond podcast.
I'm a fashion historian myself, currently a research associate with
the largest cost costume collection in the US. Lauren. That
sounds awesome, she says, I just wanted to give you

(27:46):
a note on your terminology. Bloomers in the podcast were
referred to as the pants worn under the chemise. However,
those pants are properly called pantalets. Bloomers are the outerwear
pants offered in the mid nineteenth century by reformers as
a more healthful option for women. They would be worn
under a shorter length dress as an outerwear option. The
central seams were sown closed between the legs. Pantilets can

(28:09):
be worn under bloomers, but the two are not interchangeable.
She is, of course absolutely correct, And I fall into
that habit that I think a lot of people do,
where bloomers are anything that is sort of the puffy
pants that ladies will are in olden times. I promise
I will make a concerted effort to fix that. It's
one of those things I've read before, but my brain
just always goes bloomers not right. It's also just fun
to say the word frankly. So thank you Lauren. That's awesome,

(28:32):
and it's always good to have an expert's uh touch
up to the things. She gives us. Also some cool
ideas for future podcast. If you would like to write
to us, you can do so at History Podcast at
how stuff Works dot com. You can also visit us
on Facebook, dot com slash missed in History, or on
Twitter at missed in History or at missed in history

(28:52):
dot COM's or dot com and even mind us pinning
away pictures of bloomers and pantilets and all manner of
other things at pinterest dot com slash Missed in History.
If you would like to learn a little bit more
about what we talked about today, you can go to
our parents site, which is house to Works and taking
the word cosmetics in the search bar and you'll get
a couple of different articles, many more than a couple,

(29:13):
but two that I wanted to point out, where why
did ancient Egyptian men wear cosmetics? And uh five Iconic Cosmetics,
which mentions the Rebelong company, which we did not talk
about and was also kind of developing at the same
time that Max Factor enabling were happening, and their fire
and Ice campaign, which is important because it was the
first advertising campaign to overtly link makeup in sex and

(29:34):
sexuality and sexual appeal. So it's uh certainly an important
touchstone in cultural history. If you would like to learn
about that, you can. You can look up almost anything
else your heart desires House to Works dot com, And
if you just want to visit Tracy and I on
the web, you can go to our website, which is
missed in History dot com, where you will find all
manner of show notes and searchable episodes and an archive

(29:59):
and some fun pictures. So we hope you do that
and We'll season for more on this and thousands of
other topics because it has stuff works dot com mm
hmmmm

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Tracy V. Wilson

Tracy V. Wilson

Holly Frey

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