Holodomor

“Holodomor” is a name that was coined in the 1980s to describe a famine that struck Ukraine in the early 1930s. There were food shortages taking place in other parts of the Soviet Union at the same time, but Soviet policies toward Ukraine specifically made the situation there much, much worse.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Before we
start today's episode, today's topic is a serious one, but

(00:21):
today is also our last chance to let everybody know
that we have a live streaming event coming up on
March So if you're listening to this episode on the
day that we released it, that's tomorrow. It's happening very soon.
That's going to be at eight p m Eastern, five
pm Pacific. Several folks, when we have posted about this

(00:44):
on social media have said things like that's one am
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(01:07):
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(01:29):
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(01:50):
That's on Thursday, March two, eight pm Eastern, five pm Pacific,
and now onto the act will episode. One topic that
we have gotten many, many, many requests for over the
years is the whole Amore. Some folks have even been
persistent enough to write in and request this topic more

(02:13):
than one time. The whole of Moore is the name
that was coined in the nineteen eighties to describe a
famine that struck Ukraine in the early nineteen thirties. The
name comes from Ukrainian words that roughly translate to death
by hunger, and while there were famines and food shortages
that were taking place in other parts of the Soviet Union.

(02:33):
At the same time, Soviet policies toward Ukraine specifically made
the situation there a whole lot worse, and they were
part of an intentional effort that was spearheaded by Joseph
Stalin to destroy Ukrainian culture and identity. This is also
obviously part of the historical context for Russia's invasion of

(02:56):
Ukraine that started on February of this year. It is
also really truly horrifying, so listening to it in light
of those events which are ongoing that may make it
seem even more horrifying. So take care of yourself while
you're listening. So to give a little bit of background,
Russia and Ukraine share a lot of overlapping history, going

(03:18):
all the way back to the establishment of Kievan russ
in the late ninth century. Keevan Ross was the first
Eastern Slavic state, and today Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia all
trace their origins and cultural identity back to it. But
over the centuries, the nations, peoples, and ethnic groups that
would form these countries as we know them today they

(03:39):
went through very different trajectories. What's now Ukraine was repeatedly
divided up and assigned to other nations and empires, including Poland, Lithuania,
and the Austro Hungarian Empire. Aside from its westernmost regions,
most of Ukraine became part of the Russian Empire in seventee.

(04:00):
Regardless of which nation or empire they were considered to
be living in, Ukrainians had their own ethnic and cultural identity.
By the middle of the nineteenth century, most of what's
now Ukraine had come under Russian control, but by that
point Ukrainian had also evolved as its own standardized language.

(04:20):
Literature written in Ukrainian reflected ukrainians own cultural and ethnic identities.
Imperial Russia eventually started to see this developing sense of
language and cultural consciousness as a threat, and in the
late nineteenth century, Russian officials started banning the teaching of
Ukrainian and removing Ukrainian books from schools. The Russian Imperial

(04:44):
government was overthrown in a series of revolutions in nineteen seventeen.
The Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin took control, changing their
name to the Russian Communist Party of Bolsheviks in nineteen eighteen.
As all of this was happening, Ukraine established a provisional
government and declared its independence, and for about the next

(05:04):
four years fought to keep that independence. This involved political, diplomatic,
and military efforts against other nations and against counter revolutionary
forces within its own borders. This lasted until nineteen two,
when Ukraine became the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, part of
the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. That same year, parts

(05:28):
of the Soviet Union faced a famine. This famine was
brought on by the political instability and warfare of the
previous few years, and it was made worse by a drought.
At first, Soviet leaders refused international aid, but eventually a
campaign for famine relief was underway in Soviet Russia. This

(05:49):
included suspending food taxes, but Ukraine was really facing the
same conditions, especially in its southern regions. Not only was
Ukraine left out of aid programs and other relief until
late nineteen twenty two, but it was also expected to
contribute food to Russia, including contributing food from the southern

(06:11):
regions that had been most stricken by the same famine.
The Communist Party had also instituted a system of war communism,
which involved nationalizing industries and forcibly requisitioning surplus grain and
other food. This affected the Soviet Union as a whole,
but it was particularly disruptive in Ukraine, where about eight

(06:33):
percent of the population were farmers. Growing grain was a
central part of the Ukrainian economy and identity. Ukraine is
nicknamed the bread basket of Europe and its flag represents
a blue sky over a yellow field of wheat. Under
war communism, Ukraine was no longer able to sell its
surplus grain, and as a consequence, it's economy collapsed. Unrest

(06:57):
was widespread, and agricultural productivity roped since people didn't want
to spend their time growing surplus grain that would just
be requisitioned with no compensation. Lenin introduced a new economic
policy in nineteen twenty one that addressed some of this,
but there was still a lot of anti Soviet and
anti communist sentiment. One step that was taken to try

(07:20):
to reverse that sentiment was a policy of indigenization. Russia
was by far the largest of the Soviet republics, and
Russians were by far the largest ethnic group, but the
Soviet Union was not at all monolithic, nor were the
Soviet republics that comprised it. This indigenization policy encouraged people

(07:43):
of different national identities and ethnic groups to really pursue
and develop their own cultures while still being part of
the Soviet Union. In Ukraine, this led to a huge
cultural flourishing involving literature, art, music, and language age. Newly
open schools taught courses in Ukrainian, with Russian treated more

(08:05):
like an elective class. The Ukrainian Autocephalis Orthodox Church became
independent from the Russian Orthodox Church, and its membership and
clergy both grew rapidly. The idea had been that encouraging
this kind of diversity and national identity would appease various
ethnic groups and it would increase their support for the

(08:27):
Soviet regime. But Lenin's successor, Joseph Stalin, found Ukraine's cultural
rebirth and it shift away from Russian culture and ideals
to be threatening. In ninety nine, he started arresting thousands
of Ukrainian scientists, poets, intellectuals and artists, claiming that they
were part of a secret organization that was plotting against Russia.

(08:50):
The Russian Orthodox Church had been opposed to the Ukrainian
churches independence from the start. It formally denounced the Ukrainian
Autocephalis or Docks Church as well, and Soviet authorities started
cracking down on it in nineteen twenty six. This involved
destroying churches and their icons, smashing church bells, arresting religious leaders,

(09:13):
and murdyring bishops. In the face of all of this,
the Ukrainian Orthodox Church abolished itself in nineteen thirty although
a smaller group of churches held on until nineteen thirty six.
The Ukrainian Autocephalus Orthodox Church didn't start re establishing itself
in Ukraine until the nineteen eighties. Another big factor leading

(09:35):
into the Holadamore was Stalin's First five Year Plan, which
was announced in ninety eight. This was a plan to
modernize and industrialize all of the Soviet Union. In terms
of agriculture, this would involve collectivizing the farms. Small farms
would become part of bigger collectives that were under state control,

(09:56):
and they would sell their crops at prices that were
set by the state. The idea was that this would
make farms more efficient, and that efficiency would allow the
Soviet Union to feed a larger population as it industrialized,
and to export more crops to bring in more revenue
to then buy the equipment and material that was needed

(10:17):
for that industrialization. Of course, farmers resisted this idea, and
there were thousands of uprisings against collectivization all across the
agricultural areas of the Soviet Union. Many of the poorest
farmers had received the land they were working in a
redistribution after the Russian Revolution, and now they were being

(10:37):
told to give it up. In general, people did not
want to go from controlling their own livelihoods to essentially
being employees of state run farms. The prices set by
the state were often lower than what people had been
able to sell their surplus for before, so overall the
farms were very slow to collectivize, leading the Communist Party

(10:59):
to start a huge push between January and March of
nineteen thirty and this included taxing independent farms so heavily
that the farmers wound up in debt and that forced
them to join the collective or go bankrupt. Soviet leadership
also targeted one particular class of farmers. That was a

(11:19):
group known as kulaks, which was a term that had
taken on some derisive connotations. Sometimes these people are described
as wealthy farmers, but to be clear, they were not
what most people would think of as wealthy today. The
Soviet government defined kulak farms as ones that brought in
an annual income of three hundred roubles per person or

(11:42):
fifteen hundred roubles per family, and hired farm workers are
owned farm machines. Being able to rent out some of
the farm property or having another income besides farming also
would fit the definition of kulak, but for comparison, the
average industrial worker only made about three hundred roubles per year.

(12:04):
Authorities didn't really stick strictly to this definition, and a
lot of people that were treated as kulaks had even
less than that. The Soviet government believed that if there
was going to be an organized uprising against collectivization, it
was probably going to start with these slightly more affluent peasants,
so it branded them as class enemies, claiming that they

(12:27):
were exploiting hired workers and taking advantage of their communities.
Authorities pursued a policy of liquidating the kulak class, or
decoulak azation. They arrested about fifty thou people, some of
whom were deported or executed. Authorities also confiscated their property
and their farm equipment. This was catastrophic in addition to

(12:50):
the loss of labor and production from these farms. Many
of these people described as kulaks were the most skilled
and experienced farmers in the areas they lived and a
lot of towns and villages. They were also community leaders.
They were the people who really helps to hold the
community together. So this community resource for knowledge and support

(13:11):
just disappeared. Between the forced collectivization and the de cool
acquization campaign. More than two hundred and eighty thousand peasant
households simply vanished from Ukraine between nineteen thirty and nineteen
thirty one. And all of this set the stage for
a famine, and we're going to get into that after

(13:32):
we pause for a sponsor break. After all of the
factors that we talked about before the break, harvest was
poor across a lot of the Soviet Union. The collectivization

(13:52):
and de cool acquization process had been really disruptive, and
then bad weather made it worse. The collective farms also
had not been run particularly efficiently, even though the whole
point was to be more efficient. This was in part
because that liquidation of the koolat class had involved a
lot of loss of knowledge and leadership. Soviet leadership also

(14:13):
set quotas for how much grain each community was expected
to contribute to the collective, and in many cases those
quotas were just unattainably high. To even come close to
meeting them, farming families had to turnover grain that they
would normally keep for their own food supply. Although these
quotas existed in all of the Soviet Union's agricultural regions,

(14:36):
their effects were particularly dramatic in Ukraine, which was expected
to contribute about as much grain and other produce as
all the rest of the Soviet Union combined. In December
of one, Joseph Stalin's government started placing more and more
pressure onto these communities to meet their quotas. A lot

(14:57):
of the enforcement of these regulations was overseen by the
State Political Directorate, which is abbreviated from Russian as GPU.
This was kind of a combined intelligence and secret police force.
In internal memos about this there is an insistence that
the poor harvest and the failure to meet the quotas

(15:18):
was the result of a coordinated program of intentional sabotage
and theft that was meant to undermine the collectivization process
and ruin the harvest and undermine the Soviet Union as
a whole. So mass uprisings against collectivization, which involved everything
from work stoppages to destructions of machinery to violent revolts,

(15:40):
that was interpreted as a conspiracy against Soviet leadership rather
than as a response to all of this increasing hardship
and instability. This is a really destructive cycle in which
people were arrested, deported to Siberia or sent to a gulag,
and then that would spark further uprisings among the who
had known those folks. Uprisings and unrest continued through the

(16:04):
nineteen thirty two planting and growing season, with farmers struggling
to both meet their quotas and just retain enough food
to live on. In most cases it was flatly impossible
to do both, or in some cases to do either.
By June of ninety two, Ukrainian leaders were writing to
Stalin and other Soviet leaders for aid. In August, Stalin

(16:27):
wrote to his adviser Lazar Kaganovitch, saying that if they
did not improve the situation in Ukraine, they might lose it.
Grain quotas were lowered three times in nineteen thirty two,
but really not enough to address this situation, and the
quota reductions were also more about trying to keep the
system of agriculture running, not about a humanitarian impulse. Were

(16:49):
the people who were doing that. Even with those reductions,
Ukraine was still expected to contribute about of its grain
to the state. Punishments for failing to meet the reduced
quotas also became a lot harsher, and the other policies
that were contributing to the famine, like this continuing push
for collectivization and the ongoing liquidation of the Kulak class,

(17:13):
none of that changed. A new decree called the five
Stocks of Grain Decree went into effect in August of
ninety two. Under this law, theft of state property was
punishable by ten years in prison or death, and this
meant that people who stole food because they were starving
could be executed for it, no matter how little food

(17:36):
they stole. This applied to everyone, even children. It also
applied to people who went through fields that had already
been harvested to glean anything that was left to save
themselves from starvation. More than fifty thousand people were charged
with violating this decree, and more than two thousand of

(17:56):
them were executed. Although the five stocks grain decree applied
all across the Soviet Union, the vast majority of people
who were arrested were from Ukraine. Because of the truly
dire situation there. In the fall of two, Soviet leadership
started blacklisting towns and villages that failed to meet their

(18:17):
grain Quotas. Blacklisted towns were banned from receiving food and
from buying basic necessities like salt or kerosene. More than
a third of the towns in Ukraine were blacklisted. So
to some all this up Joseph Stalin's policies had created
the conditions that sparked the famine, then made the famine worse,

(18:39):
and punished its victims for being the victims of famine.
At this point, many farmers started trying to leave Ukraine,
either to buy food from one of its neighbors or
just to relocate entirely in the hope of finding a
better life, and of course Soviet leadership did not want
this to happen because Ukraine was the Soviet Union's largeist

(19:00):
food producer, But instead of taking steps to address the
escalating famine in Ukraine, which again was being worsened by
unreachable food quotas. Soviet leadership worked to stop Ukrainian farmers
from leaving. In October, about a hundred thousand Communist Party
representatives and military personnel were dispatched to Ukraine, as well

(19:22):
as to the Northern Caucasus and the Volga Basin to
conduct house to house searches to make up for the
shortfall in the quotas. During these searches, they confiscated any
grain or flower or their food that they found. People
started selling whatever they had wedding rings, household goods, furniture,
their tools, just to try to buy back some of

(19:45):
their own produce to eat. Calls for aid to Ukraine
became increasingly desperate, but in ninety two, more than four
million tons of grain were taken from Ukraine, enough to
feed more than twelve million people for a year. Moscow
exported more than a million tons of green to other
countries and held enough green in reserves to feed at

(20:08):
least ten million people. Yet all over the Soviet Union
people were starving, especially in Ukraine. In December of ninety two,
still tied to the idea that a huge conspiracy was
intentionally undermining agriculture in Ukraine, Soviet authorities started a series
of mass arrests of people who were accused of being

(20:31):
involved in secret paramilitary organizations. These organizations did exist. They
included the Ukrainian Military Organization or u v O and
the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists or oh u N, but
this alleged involvement was really being used as a justification
for mass arrests without actually offering any proof that the

(20:53):
arrested person had any ties whatsoever to these organizations. In
January of nine thirty three, Pavel post Yachev arrived in
Ukraine as Stalin's personal representative and implemented a series of
massive purges, removing Ukrainians from positions of leadership and replacing
them with Russians. On New Year's Day of nineteen thirty three,

(21:16):
an amnesty was announced for anyone who turned in stolen
or hidden grain. The implication was that anyone who didn't
turn in any grain was clearly hiding something. The house
to house searches that had started in October intensified, with
anything that could be eaten being confiscated, including seed crops

(21:37):
meant to be planted the next season, and people's pets.
In late January of three, Joseph Stalin and Lazarre Molotov
ordered the Ukrainian borders to be sealed. Efforts had already
been underway to keep Ukrainian farmers from leaving, but this
measure also kept people from entering Ukraine, so people couldn't

(21:59):
leave to buy food. That's also kept word of the
famine from spreading, and it kept any kind of relief
from being brought into Ukraine. An internal passport system was
implemented for travel within Ukraine as well, but farmers were
not allowed to have them, so in addition to being
unable to leave Ukraine to find work or food, they

(22:21):
also couldn't try to move to a city or a
different rural area where things might not be so dire.
Even though other parts of the Soviet Union were also
experiencing a famine, Ukraine was the only Soviet republic where
these measures were in place. In late January of nineteen
thirty three, the Pullit Bureau, which was the Communist Party's

(22:43):
supreme policy making body, resolved that the Ukrainian Communist Party
had failed to carry out its duties. Pavl Postazev was
named the new head of the party, he implemented another
wave of purges of Ukrainian intellectuals, cultural figures, and party leaders,
again replacing the people who were removed from their positions

(23:05):
with Russians. Many of those who had been arrested and
imprisoned in earlier years were executed. Ukrainian Communist leader Michoelas
Krupnik took his own life in July three rather than
go through a show trial connected to all these purges.
A month earlier, Ukrainian poet and writer Michael Kulvi took

(23:26):
his own life in protest, feeling that that was the
only action left open to him. The deadliest months of
the dam Or were in early nineteen thirty three. During
this time, it is estimated that a thousand people were
starving to death in Ukraine every single hour. People died
of starvation while waiting in line for bread, with those

(23:47):
lines often being thousands of people long. As crops grew
in the early spring of nineteen thirty three, people died
while trying to eat unripe grain uncooked in the fields.
Parents abandoned their children close to cities, hoping that city
dwellers with more access to food might take them in.
Survivors accounts are full of just absolutely desperate steps that

(24:11):
people took to try to stay alive. Eventually, so many
people were dying that wagons were sent house to house
to collect the dead. The wagons were drawn by horses,
which had to be fed at night and in secret,
otherwise starving people would understandably mob the stables trying to
get the horses food. Many many farm animals died of

(24:33):
starvation during this period as well, because there was no
grain to feed them with, and there was also a
wave of just appalling and brutal crimes, including cannibalism, committed
by people who had reached a point of having to
do just anything possible to find something to eat. Throughout
the late nineteen twenties and early nineteen thirties, the focus

(24:56):
of the mass arrests and purges had mainly been men
that men that often them, and where the people trying
to hold their families and their communities together as the
wolodamor peaked. Survivors of the famine have described women trying
to find and store whatever food they could, and trying
to turn things that would be considered to be inedible,
like leather and horse hides and dried leaves and twigs

(25:18):
into food. Women also formed mutual aid organizations and banded
together to try to guard communities food stores, or to
fight back against food confiscations and arrests. The Soviet government
took steps to try to cover up the famine. Russian
propaganda films depicted Ukraine as a happy and bountiful place,

(25:40):
as professional journalists and ordinary citizens risk their lives trying
to document what was happening. Foreign journalists and dignitaries were
allowed into the Soviet Union, but they were given very
tightly controlled tours that made it look like everything was
under control. A small number of journalists did manage to
publish articles on what was really going on. One was

(26:03):
Welsh journalist Gareth Jones, who published multiple articles on the
famine in ninety two and nineteen thirty three. The Soviet
Union published extensive rebuttals to this reporting, insisting that everything
was fine and that reports of a famine were simply
anti Soviet propaganda. Even journalists outside the Soviet Union questioned

(26:25):
or dismissed Jones's reports. Walter Duranti of The New York Times,
for example, stated that he quote thought Mr. Jones's judgment
was somewhat hasty. Jones was ultimately forbidden from being allowed
to re enter the Soviet Union, and he was murdered
in Japanese occupied Mongolia in ninety five. Yeah, there were

(26:45):
there were some other journalists as well who were able
to publish accurate accounts, some of it later, like later
in the nineteen thirties. We'll get more into the aftermath
of all of this. After another quick sponsor break, the

(27:08):
Holidamora came to an end as crops were harvested in
three and more people were allowed to keep enough of
that harvest to feed themselves. Accurate death records were not
kept during the famine, though, so there are multiple estimates
of how many people died. The most commonly cited figures
today are about five million deaths across the Soviet Union,

(27:32):
with about four million of those happening in Ukraine, but
some estimates are a lot higher, as many as ten
million total deaths, with seven million of those deaths in Ukraine.
It's estimated that more than ten percent of the population
of Ukraine died in the Holidamor, with a much higher
death toll in some communities. This, combined with the intentional

(27:55):
arrests and purges of Ukrainian leaders, intellectuals, artists, and cultural
figure to just have a devastating effect on the nation
and its identity. In February of nineteen thirty four, Ukrainian
writer Boris and Tanenko Davidovich wrote quote, at the present time,
there is no Ukrainian culture, and if there is, it
is the corpse of Ukrainian culture, because the entire Ukrainian

(28:19):
intelligentsia and its culture are in exile. Although the Soviet
Union had tried relentlessly to cover up the famine, it
was really impossible to keep it completely secret. But in
spite of that, there was not really an international response
to what was going on at the time. Discussions of
the famine in the international community generally framed it as

(28:41):
an internal matter for the Soviet Union and not something
that called for some sort of international consequences. The United
States recognized the Soviet government on November sixteenth, nineteen thirty three,
more than a decade after the Soviet Union was first established.
The Soviet Union also became a member of the League
of Natans in nineteen thirty four. Purges and arrests also

(29:04):
continued into nineteen thirty four, including replacing Ukrainian leaders with Russians.
Russians were also recruited to repopulate parts of Ukraine that
had been most affected by the famine. Some of these
people were volunteers who returned to Russia after about a year,
but this was part of an ongoing effort to transfer

(29:24):
more people who were ethnically Russian into Ukraine. The Soviet
cover up of the famine also continued for years. In
nineteen thirty seven, there was a census that made it
obvious that something terrible had happened in Ukraine. Joseph Stalin
suppressed the census and then had the committee that had
carried it out executed. Soviet efforts to cover up the

(29:46):
famine and to break apart Ukrainian culture and society ended
only after Nazi Germany invaded in nineteen forty one. At first,
many people in Ukraine saw this as a liberation, both
because of the horrors they had endured at the hands
of the predominantly Russian Soviet leadership during the famine and

(30:06):
the ongoing oppression and dismantling of Ukrainian culture. Some people
also thought that because Germany and the USSR were enemies,
Germany would be on the side of Ukrainian independence. Germany
used these perceptions to its own ends, including using inspections
of mass graves from the famine to deflect from its

(30:27):
own crimes, But of course the Nazi invasion brought its
own horrific incidents to Ukraine. Nazi policies were the same
in Ukraine as they were in any other territory that
the Nazis occupied. This included the massacre at bobby Ar
that began on September. More than thirty three thousand Jews

(30:51):
were killed in this massacre, and the ravine where it
happened was the site of additional massacres and mass burials
over the remainder of the war. Somewhere between a hundred
thousand and a hundred and fifty thousand Jews, prisoners of
war and Ukrainian nationalists were killed and buried in mass
graves there before the war ended. After World War Two,

(31:14):
the Soviet Union continued to refuse to acknowledge or discuss
the famine of nineteen thirty two and nineteen thirty three.
Survivors in Ukraine, of course knew about it, as did
Ukrainians living elsewhere, but the Kremlin denied that it had
happened for more than fifty years. Soviet research into the famine,
starting in the nineteen fifties and sixties, was meant to

(31:37):
try to disprove that it had ever happened, and to
provide evidence that it had really all been propaganda cooked
up by Ukrainian nationalists and bourgeois expatriots. The famine wasn't
totally unknown outside the USSR and Ukrainian immigrant communities, though.
For example, in nineteen fifty three, past podcast subject Raphael Lampkin,

(32:00):
who coined the term genocide, gave a speech at a
New York commemoration of the famine. He also published this
speech as an article titled Soviet Genocide in Ukraine. In
this he walked through why he believed Russia's destruction of
Ukraine was genocide, incorporating a four pronged plan that included

(32:22):
the destruction of the Ukrainian intelligentsia, the destruction of the
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the starvation of Ukrainian farmers, and the
replacement of Ukrainian population with non Ukrainians from Russia and
elsewhere in the Soviet Union. More accurate, scholarly and popular
articles about the Holodomor began to be published in the

(32:43):
early nineteen eighties, right around the fiftieth anniversary of the famine.
Public statements on the subject increased after the nineteen eighties
six Chernobyl disaster, including people pointing out earlier Soviet efforts
to cover up a disaster. The Soviet Union's first official
acknowledgement of the famine came in nineteen eighties seven. The

(33:05):
Ukrainian Communist Party also formally acknowledged it on December twenty five,
Night seven, which was the anniversary of the founding of
the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. More information became available about the
whole damore after the collapse of the Soviet Union in nine,
at which point Ukraine again became an independent nation. Much

(33:26):
of the ongoing historical analysis of the Holodamar has taken
place in Ukrainian immigrant communities in North America. Harvard University
is home to the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute, which was
founded in nineteen seventy three with support from Ukrainian Americans. Alberta, Canada,
is home to the lad More Research and Education Consortium,

(33:48):
which was established in On November two thousand and six,
the Ukrainian Parliament passed an Act defining the Holadamor as
an act of genocide, and since then at least fifteen
other nations have also formally done the same. Lad More
Remembrance Day is observed in Ukraine and around the world

(34:08):
on the fourth Saturday of November. Uh, and that is
the whole of moral Uh. In lieu of listener mail today,
we're going to take one last chance to say, live
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from this podcast coming out. That's March ten. Everything you

(34:30):
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It feels a little weird to end this podcast with
that announcement in this particular episode, but uh, we have
no other no other episodes coming out before the live
stream is happening. Yes, sometimes that is just how the

(34:51):
calendar works out. Yeah. Yeah, So we hope to see
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(35:12):
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