NASA History: Chief Historian Bill Barry on Hugh Dryden

The NASA space program likely wouldn't be what it is today without the work Hugh Dryden did before NASA even existed, and his guidance in its early years. NASA's Chief Historian Bill Barry joins Holly for a talk about Dryden's impressive life.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Steph you missed in history class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast,
and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, We're going to be
out in the world soon, really soon. We're going to
escape from the studio the weekend immediately after this episode

(00:22):
comes out, we will be at Convention Days in Seneca Falls,
New York. Yeah, we're gonna do a live show there
about Frederick Douglas and that is going to be on
July the six. This is that's the year that we
are in right now, correct, And if you would like,
if you would like to tails, you can go to
Convention Days dot com for the whole schedule, including when
and where our show will be. Yeah, there's a lot

(00:45):
of great programming at Convention Days, a lot of yes. So,
now do you want to get into the episode I do.
Last year, after we did our episode about James Webb
and the James web Space telescope, for which I have
deep fund this, we got a lovely eat Neil mentioning
that Hugh Dryden is another figure in NASA's history that
would really be worth talking about. But the best part

(01:05):
is it that email actually came from none other than
NASA's chief historian, Bill Berry. Yes, it's always cool when
you get an email from the person that is the
actual bona fide expert on something. Yeah, so it really
seemed like it would be a wasted opportunity not to
ask Bill to come on a podcast and talk about
it himself directly. So that is exactly what Holly did,

(01:26):
and he very kindly agreed, and today we have that conversation,
and of course Bill was a percent correct. Hugh Dryden
is a really impressive figure in NASA history, but he
was just a surprising and inspiring person in general. But
we can say all of that, but it's really better
if we just let Bill tell you all about So

(01:52):
we are lucky enough to have Bill Berry, who is
NASA's chief historian, here on the line, and we're going
to talk about Hugh Dryden. But before we get into
dryden story and his legacy, I have to ask, how
does one become a NASA historian? Well, that's a really
good question. Um. Being an aerospace history geek helps a
real a real lot, um, but also luck plays a

(02:16):
really big factor. Um. There are actually only seven people
who are historians who work for NASA. Two of them
here at headquarters and the other five scattered around the
agency in various spots. So, um, do you not know,
I have to you know, be qualified for it, but
you have to wait for the magic ferry dust to
land on you at the same time, so one of
those spots opens up. I was gonna say, I can't
imagine that's a high turnover job. I think if you

(02:38):
get it, you probably love it. Uh well, there have
been six chief historians so far in the history of NASA,
so since n so, so it tends to be a
long tenure job yet and we're all pretty happy with
the job. That's perfect. Uh So, now we can transition
over to a huge riding story. And first, you had

(02:58):
actually mentioned him to me when you first emailed us,
And I'm curious from your perspective, what makes Hugh Dryden
an important part of history. Uh well, I really enjoyed
the episode uh that you guys did on Jim Webb,
and but as I was listening to it, I you
mentioned Hugh Ryden kind of just in passing, and it's

(03:18):
kind of a um character that didn't seem all that
important to the story, But he really is critical to
the whole history of aerospace in the first half of
the twentieth century. In a lot of ways, Dryden sort
of the Forrest Gump of aerospace history. Um, he's in
all the pictures. Oftentimes in his case he would be
in a backgrow hiding someplace. But but he was a

(03:40):
major force behind all the federally sponsored research on flight
and in the twentieth century and had a huge impact
on making NASA what it is. So when you first
reached out to me, you also called Dryden much overlooked,
And I wonder why you think there hasn't really been
a lot of spotlight shined on his particular legacy. So

(04:01):
there are really two things that I think drive the
issue on on why he dried in his overlooked by history. UM.
One is himself and one is the timing of his death. UM.
He was very much an introvert, very self confident, but
also you know, quiet and self effacing, and a lot
of his traces back to his religious views, I think

(04:21):
where he didn't believe in promoting himself. UM. Interestingly, he
could be he really could be very quite sociable and
he was very effective at dealing with people. UM. And
in fact he was so effective at sort of hiding
things about himself that most people didn't know. He was
a teetotaler. So he'd go to hit cut of these events,
you know, parties and events and things, and he would
always go over and have a quiet word with the

(04:42):
bartender at the beginning and say, you know, give me
a highball glassful of ice and water and just keep
refilling it from time at the time. So he was
drinking water the whole time, and nobody realized that. So, uh,
an interesting guy. Um. And the other thing courses is
he dies in December nineteen sixty five. Um, And that's

(05:02):
before all the big things happened at NASA, and when
NASA achieves the goal of landing a man in the
moon in a decade, and most of the sort of
retelling of the story of you know, how we got
to the moon happens after ninety nine, and he wasn't
around to sort of talk about his partner, to be
interviewed and things like that. So so his kind of

(05:22):
really critical role in that. So he gets left behind
because you know, there was no one near to really
tell his story. And by the time they started asking questions,
he had been gone for four or five years. So um,
he did play an incredibly crucial role behind the scenes,
but not well recognized, in part because he didn't push
his own story and also in part because he just

(05:42):
wasn't there to tell it when the time came. And
his life story really started out pretty humbly, but then
he excelled so much academically that it kind of catapulted
him into being the person that eventually had this impact.
Will you tell us a little bit about his early life. Yeah,
Dryden is really the classic American story of the kids

(06:03):
from you know, out of nowhere, achieves great things in
his life and and and and and has a huge impact.
He was born July second, just before the turn of
the century there in Pocomoke City and rural southern Maryland,
from a not particularly distinguished family that the Dryden's were merchants,

(06:23):
mostly um but he was reading by the age of
four and um um. About that time, his father's business
went went bust in the nineteen oh seven um um
recession in the United States. Uh So the family moved
to Baltimore, and his father, who had been a school
teacher for a while and then a shopkeeper, winds up
working as a tram conductor in Baltimore for the rest

(06:46):
of his life, barely kind of squeaking by a living
for the family, but driving himself, as uh recognized for
you know, his early academic achieve and moved quickly through school. Um.
And he was around for some interesting things. That the
first airplane flight over the city of Baltimore where he
lived was on November seventh, nineteen ten, and like most
of the rest of the city, Drying was out there

(07:07):
to watch it. Um. And he was in school at
the time, and he wrote a paper about it. And
in fact, the paper he wrote was about why airships
or you know, dirigibles or bloimps, why those were better
than airplanes? Uh and and and he got an f
on the paper, by the way. Um. But curiously enough,
actually he was right about most of his observations as

(07:30):
a young man. He saw that, you know, planes were
not very reliable, They couldn't fly for very long, they
were very fragile and would break easily. Uh And But
he's hooked on aviation, and he winds up actually solving
most of the problems that he identified in that first
paper in nineteen ten. UM. As he's working on air
aeronautx research in the twenties and thirties. So anyway, so

(07:51):
he graduates from high school in three years at the
age of fourteen. So he rushes through school there, he's
number one in his class. UM. He has no prospect
for going to college, but at number of his teachers
from UM from high school, UH find a scholarship for
him and get him to Johns Hopkins. And so he
goes to Johns Hopkins, which happens to be in Baltimore,
so we can live at home and live cheaply. UM.
And again he finishes in three years, four year course

(08:14):
at college in physics, graduates at the top of his
class and then moves into a right into the master's
program and then the PhD UM and he finishes his
PhD at the age of twenty, the youngest PhD in
Johns Hopkins history and UH. And he wrote his his
dissertation on basically supersonic UH flight, the physical principles behind

(08:35):
supersonic flight. And this is when airplanes were going just
barely over a hundred miles an hour, So pretty amazing
the guy to be seeing that far ahead into the
future and and achieving the academic things and and doing
so from the very modest background. He seems so much
like the perfect combination of uh inherent intellect and talent

(08:57):
and like hard work, that it kind of is the
perfect recipe right for him to achieve. I mean, I
can't imagine getting a PhD at twenty that's a lot
of work. Yeah, it took me a lot longer to
do that myself. I think it takes almost everything, everybody
a lot longer. He's amazing, that's really astonishing. UM. And
one of his professors, Joseph Ames, really played a large

(09:19):
role in Dryden's life. Would you talk a little bit
about their relationship and how Dryden eventually ended up with
a job in aerodynamics at the National Bureau of Standards. Sure,
Joseph Aames was, of course, uh not as well known now,
but he was. He was a titan in physics research
in in the early twentieth century. UM. He wound up

(09:40):
he was ahead of the Department of Physics at Johns
Hopkins when when Dryden first showed up there, but later
he became the president of Johns Hopkins University, and also
for most of that time he was the chairman of
the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics UM, which was the
organization founded in nineteen fifteen, and it eventually becomes NASA

(10:01):
and the basis of NASA UM. But as a chairman
of the Committee UM, he basically controlled the group that
made decisions about you know, what research and that n
a c A would would perform and kind of what
directions they were going, and did a lot of the
you know, political work in Washington, d C. To make
sure that n a c A had the funding it
needed to do things. So Aames takes Drying under his wing.

(10:26):
When he shows up as a master student. You know,
it's clear that Dryden is extremely gifted and talented, but
also very young. UM and UM. Because Aames is well
connected in the Washington, d C. Area, he's able to
put UM Drying in a job at the National Bureau
of Stands Drying just just got married about then and
had a you know, a wife to take care of,

(10:46):
didn't have a whole lot of job prospects, UM, and
so World War One is still going on at the time,
and and Ames puts UM drying at the National Bureau
of Standards UH, originally doing sort of basic side you know,
physics research work, but UM quickly, the Bureau of Standards
decides to establish an aerodynamics section and Drying. At the

(11:06):
age of twenty two, becomes the first chief of the
Aerodynamics Section at the National Bureau of Standards UM and
National Bureau Standards had its own wind tunnels, did a
lot of research work UH and that in the nineteen
twenties and thirties UM and UH Aames now had you know,
Professor Amames now had a inside guy that he knows
at National Beureau Standards UH with these wind tunnels, and

(11:27):
so he starts funneling an A c A research projects
toward towards drying, and Drying does a lot of really
important work for for an A C. A while at
the National Bureau of Standards UM. UH. While he's at
National Beera Standards, he shows um not only an ability
to be a brilliant thinker about things, but he's also
really good with people. And he rises quickly too, you know,

(11:50):
from the chief at Aerodynamics Section to a number of
other responsible positions in the Bureau UM and eventually is
the deputy head by the by the end of World
War two. UM and in the process he establishes an
international scientific reputation for himself UM, not not just for
being a smart guy who can think theoretically, but also

(12:11):
someone who can do practical things like UM. One of
the problems they had was that was the wind tunnels.
The accuracy of the replicability of data from wind various
wind tunels around the country was it was hard to
UM to sync up. There they get discrepancies in the
same tests and different tunnels uh dry and figured out
that it might well be UM turbulence different kinds of

(12:35):
different levels of turbans of different tunnels, and so he
actually helps invent this thing called the hot wire anemometer,
which is the way to the measure the actual wind
velocity and direction and UH at various points in the
tunnel with extreme precision. And he proves with that hot
wire anomometer that most of the discrepancies were caused by
wind tunnels that had non non linear flow that that

(12:57):
were turbulence. So he sort of solves the hope on
with with wind tunnels being undependable UM and then goes
on to build these really high fidelity wind tunnels at
National Bureau of Standards that that he uses to prove
a bunch of things like, for example, the nineteen o
seven theory by the German uh Ludwig prontal Um, who

(13:18):
propose the theory about how bound you layer flows around wings.
And it was very controversial theory. But in these highly
accurate wind tunnels, Dryden proofs that the theory is actually true.
And that's that becomes a major benchmarkt aviation theory, and
and and puts Dryden's name on the map, at least
among people who were in the field of very datamics
around the world. Listening to build talk about huge Dryden's

(13:47):
accelerated academic achievement made me feel like a total under achiever,
probably most people, because those transcended normal human development. Yeah, well,
I feel like I was an overachiever, and that's the
puts my like, was I lying down too much? What happened?
So while we ruminate on that, we're gonna pause and
have a word from one of our fantastic sponsors. So

(14:15):
now let's get back to NASA Chief historian Bill Berry
talking about huge riding, including some really surprising projects he
was involved in during World War Two. You referenced briefly
World War two and where Dryden had ended up by
the time that had all played out, But will you
talk a little bit more about how the Second World

(14:37):
War impacted his life. Well, World War two was a
dominant factor and just about anybody's life will live through it,
I suspect, but Dryden, being in a position of responsibility
for research work, was particularly involved and it made a
big impact on him. And he had subsequently a big
impact on scientific work in the war. Of course, many

(15:00):
people in the business, and you know, aeronautics business saw
you know what was coming. Uh. You know, Germans were
doing a lot of research and they were concerned about um,
you know, competing with the Germans in other countries. So UH,
research efforts in the US picked up quite a bit
in the late nineteen thirties and and Dryden was involved

(15:21):
in that. One of the projects he was involved in
at the National Bureau of Standards was designing the fins
that on the back of bombs that get dropped out
of airplanes. So you know, he helped standardized those fins
in that design was actually UH used throughout the war.
But more importantly, UH, the Office of Scientific Research and Development,
led by man of Our bush Um, saw Dryden as

(15:43):
a as a key person, not only as a person
who had, you know, good scientific chops, but also who
could manage a good project UM, and so they put
him in charge of this wacky idea to build the
bomb that could find its way to its target all
by itself. UM. They called it a guided glide bomb.
It was really the first sort of smart weapon that

(16:04):
was ever invented UM and it was known as bat
B a t UM and UM. It was designed would
use an analog computer to UH UM and a radar
return signal to to identify its target, UM, steer itself
to the target and make sure it hit the target. UM.
It took a couple of years, but but Dryden actually

(16:26):
led that project to completion and and and deployment and
actually used the bat UH particularly in the Pacific theater
in the last year the war. And it took out
a lot of Japanese ships as well as land targets.
So it had had a substantial impact on the war
and UM and contributed to dry And being recognized at
the end of the the war with the Medal of Freedom
and a number of other UM number of other things.

(16:47):
Another aspect of the war for Dryden was that he
was well known before this point by Theodore van Carmen
and and Carmen had gotten involved with the Army Air
Forces as UH an advisor to them and UH when
they set up the Air Force Army Air Force Scientific

(17:07):
Advisory Group, Carmen turns to Dryden and asked him to
be the deputy director of the group. And that group
UM gets called in at the end of World War
Two in a spring in n to go to Europe
and do an assessment of UM aeronautics research across Europe,
and Dryden winds up in a uniform but pretending he's

(17:28):
an Army Air Force colonel UM. Carmen gets to be
a general and UH and they wander around Europe debriefly
people like word of von Braun and other folks like
that about things. UH that the group took most of
a year to do his work. Dryden went on the
first trip to Europe and they came back to Washington
and UH he winds up being the editor of the

(17:49):
of the research project that's being done. UH. Their thirty
three had papers written UM. Dryden wrote several of them himself. UM.
And the report that comes out of this was entitled
Towards New Horizon and UM and it was really the
seminal study that laid out the plans for where not
just the Air Force, but I'd say it's in general
would go in scientific research in the post war era.

(18:11):
And it was hugely influential. And Dryden was you know,
not only there at the creation, but he helped right
right part of that report so critical and setting the
agenda for where um U S Aerospace reacherch would go
after the war. That is sort of an astonishing adventure
story that ties in with the science is so compelling. Yeah,

(18:32):
like I said, I could talk forever. So if I'm
going to law and let me know, no way, are
you kidding? You're like a fond of knowledge. That's fantastic
and excellent. Uh. And so when did Dryden leave the
National Bureau of Standards and finally actually become part of
the n a c AH. Well, of course, at National

(18:53):
Bureer Standards, Chris Professor Ames is running the n a
c A, running a committee that runs the n a
c A for for most of this period, uh, in
the twenties and thirties and into the war. Um and
um so Dryden is actually doing a research for the
n a C that's you know, funded by the n
a c A. But he's doing at the National Bureau Standards,
so he's really been working for the n a c

(19:15):
for quite a lot. There are a number of really
important n a c A reports that were written during
that time that you know that Dryden was the author
of UM, but George lewis the guy who did who
ran the day to day operation of UM of the
n a c A. So he had aims running the
committee that oversaw the n a c A. But but
George lewis the guy ran it. Uh. George had been

(19:37):
a director basically from the beginning and and by the
end of World War Two had been the director for
twenty eight years. UM. He really basically worked himself to
death UM. And by the end of the war he's
he retires UM and around and dies within a year
of when he retires UM. And it was pretty clear
that they needed somebody, you know, of a similar character

(19:58):
and caliber to take over the place, and tried and
with sort of the clear choice for directors. So UH,
he becomes the director in n UM and UH based
on what he knew from that report that he wrote,
the Torrey New Horizons report. UH, he immediately immediately starts
changing the direction of the n a c A from
just being an aeronautics research agency to doing um basically

(20:22):
aerospace research. UM. In fact, the within about two weeks
and when he got on the job is one of
the first things he does is he gets on a
train and goes across the country to Edwards Air Force
Space or what's now Edwards Air Force BACE, UH to
visit the n a c A people that were out
there working on the X one project, the first plane
to go supersonic that was that was a joint project. UM.

(20:45):
You know, the Air Force and NAC worked on it together.
UM and the n a c A folks were out
there on temporary duty basically from uh their their normal
post at Langley Research Center in Virginia. UM him goes
out there to see how things are going, check out
the scene, and when he comes back, he signs in
order that basically makes uh that center those folks that

(21:07):
they're permanently assigned out in California and creates the Flight
High Speed Flight Research Center UM out in California. And
that's it's not the Armstrong Flight Research Center, but uh,
uh that thing. Date the formalization of that as A
as a as a major research facility for for the
n a c A and later NASA. Actually dates the
Dryden's first couple of weeks in office, so uh. And

(21:31):
after that, he basically, you know, without without any change
in the mandate of the n a c A starts
doing more and more rocket research and space related research,
so that by the time in the mid nineteen fifties,
um n AC is doing supersonic study, hypersonic work, and
work on reentry vehicles from space, um and early sorts
of things. He basically turned the n a c A

(21:52):
into a into a semi space agency without ever asking
anybody's permission to do so. But we alway have such
a debt of gratitude for that, exactly. It's astonishing. And
I'm glad that you brought him up because I hadn't
realized any of that until you had sent over some
some information about him, and I was like, wait, how
did how is nobody talking about this? So I'm so

(22:13):
glad you're here to do so. Um. When the n
a c A became NASA, how did Dryden's roll evolve
within the organization, Well, that's a really interesting one. Um.
Of course, in nineteen fifty seven, October four, the Soviets
launched the first satellite around the Earth. And that's kind
of a surprise to everybody, um, and a lot of

(22:34):
people will get upset about it. Um. Probably more troubling
is that within a month in early November seven and
launched a second satellite and it's got a dog on board. Uh.
And that got everybody's attention. Um. And suddenly there's a
lot of As happens here in Washington, d C. From
time to time, there's a lot of recrimination about who's
the blame for various things, and attention immediately falls on

(22:58):
the n a c A for not being more of
a space agency, even though they really weren't authorized to
be a space agency. Uh. So, so Drying kind of
get some blame for not anticipating uh spot nick, although
he actually had been because he had been redirecting the
agency all along. Um. But probably more importantly, um, Dryden

(23:18):
was kind of a straight shooter and um um. While
an introvert and quiet and polite um, they also made
it clear when he didn't agree with people necessarily, So
apparently he didn't make many friends on Capitol Hill. When
they called him up there to complain to him about
about the job he did so UM, several members of
Congress made it known that they would not really like

(23:40):
Mr Dryden to be head of this new organization, whatever
it was going to be. In the eyes and our
administration had been considering just taking the n A c
A and turning it into NASA and leaving Dryden at
the head of it. But it was pretty clear that
politically that wasn't gonna fly, so they turned to UH,
a guy named Ti Keith Glennon. Dr. Glennon was at
that time he had he had done it, had a

(24:02):
number of higher government jobs, worked in atomic energy business UM,
and was the in president of Case Institute of Technology
what's what's now Case Western Reserve University. So UM he
was a good guy. UH. Interestingly enough, Glennon, when he
agreed to take the job, did it only on a

(24:22):
condition that Dryden stayed as his number two and UH.
Dryden actually was being offered a position as a professor
at m I T. And UH he turned down the
m I T job and agreed to stay because Glennon
asked him to, because he felt it was his duty
to stay on and help about and and I was
a why his choice by by Glennon, because Dryden knew

(24:43):
the nuts and bolts of the whole n a c
A organization and was really good at, you know, juggling
lots of things that were happening. And this new organization,
NASA was not only the n a c A, but
it had all these other pieces being bolted on, like
the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and parts of the Army Ballistic
Missile Agency and the Naval Research Lab that all become
part of NASA UM and Dryden's the guy who made

(25:06):
all that sort of background stuff work. Webb was our
Glennon was uh, you know, the front guy who did
all the political wheeling and dealing and and managed the
political relations and inside the government and it was sort
of the spokesman for the agency. But but Dryden was
the behind the scenes guy who you know, dealt with
the day to day operations of the organization and making

(25:28):
sure it actually functioned effectively. Interesting too that the of course,
as an hour runs out, of his turn runs out,
and uh, President Kennedy gets elected, and Kennedy goes looking
for a new administrator for NASA, and he finally selects
Jim Webb and and Jim Webb becomes becomes a director
of nas and at the sixty one and he agrees
to become NASA administrator again only if Dryden stays on.

(25:53):
That was one of the conditions he applied to that
was that the Dryden's stay on as as his deputy
and and drying that at that point. Um. Shortly after that,
way in the fall of Dryden is actually diagnosed with
cancer um and uh. But he continues to work. In fact,
he worked until when he finally succumbed to the cancer.
Um and it worked. At that point, they were working

(26:16):
six day schedules because of the race to get to
the moon. After that point, um and uh. And so
Dryden was in in the office six days a week,
um and dealing with cancer and uh. Um a phenomenally
uh focused and driven person. Yeah, I had had no

(26:37):
idea that really shaped the US aerospace program even before
the United States had an aerospace program. We're going to
talk a little bit more about the perhaps surprising aspect
of Dryden's personal life, but first let's pause for a
quick sponsor break. All right, let's cut to the conclusion

(27:01):
of my interview with NASA's chief historian Bill Berry and
we'll kick this segment off talking about Hugh Dryden's religious life,
and I imagine it will surprise people. You mentioned it
a little bit earlier at the beginning of our talk
that Dryden was religious, but I bet it would probably

(27:21):
surprise people to know that he actually held a Methodist
preacher's license. Um. Will you talk a little bit about
his religious background and how that factored into his life
and career. Yeah, it's a really interesting aspect that I
think people these days would find very surprising. But in fact, uh,
Dryden Dryden's faith was really a central part of his life. Um. Um,

(27:43):
you know he was. In fact, his name Hugh Hugh Laddimer.
Hugh Latimer was the name of his first middle name
were the names of a Methodist preacher in a town
where his paths were when he was born, and so
he was actually named after another Methodist minister. Um. So
uh as an important partner his young life. He met
his wife Libby at a church event and uh and

(28:06):
his uh, you know, with his faith and and stuff
was really important. I mentioned that he was working six
day weeks at that NASA, particularly in in the early sixties. Uh.
In fact, unlike God of the Bible. He didn't rest
on the seventh Day. He actually spent a lot of
Sundays out preaching at local churches. So he had, you know,

(28:27):
work at NASA six days a week, and on Sundays
he'd go preach. And uh, I actually found us out
look going through his letters. Um. He donated his his
personal papers to Johns Hopkins University. Uh. So I was
up at Johns Hopkins looking for something else about Dryden's
work on our first agreement with the Soviet Union. Actually

(28:47):
Dryden was the key negotiator of that um and uh
and I kept writting across these these letters that he
had sent to various churches sending back their checks because
he'd go give a preach a sermon. Did send him
a check for being a guest preacher, and hit send
it back saying, you know, I'm sorry, I really can't
accept this money. Um. And if they if they returned
to check to him again. He had donated to a

(29:09):
charity and sent him a notes I had donated to
this charity, thank you very much, but I really can't
accept the money. So what what an interesting guy? And
he was a guy who didn't see religious faith and
sciences is incompatible at all. And that's a really interesting
perspective these days. It is. And I when't you mentioned
that he was working six days a week and then

(29:30):
basically working on the seventh by preaching. That's a grueling
schedule for someone who is not ill, so for someone
that was battling cancer like it's a testament to his
incredible drive. He really the more I read about about
Hugh dried the more I I feel completely completely inadequate,
because because here's a guy who's you know, uh, sick

(29:53):
with canted and dying and he's working seven days a
week basically and uh and keeping the whole thing together
just unbelievable and and a brilliant mind and a nice
guy on top of that from all all reports. Uh
I actually um his long time secretary. Um, we have
an oral history from his his longtime secretary, and she

(30:14):
writes about about Dryden and uh, uh you know what
a nice guy was, and how polite he was to everybody,
how nice he was to her. Uh and he even
writes about the NASA headquarters. There's a train track that
runs through south Southwest DC and and from Dryden's office
you could see the train track that went through and Um,

(30:37):
one time, the Ringling Brothers Barnard Bailey circus train is
going through DC on his track and he's has a
meeting with with some senior official according to a secretary,
and he stops the meeting, steps out and grabs his
secretary and says, come on in here, you gotta see this,
And they basically stopped the whole meetings, Like I watched
the circus train go by. But yeah, I mean exactly,

(30:59):
I mean, he comes Crosses is just the sweetest guy,
um you'd ever know. He is almost one of those
people that if someone were to write him as a
fictional character, no one would believe. They would be like, no,
that's too much, it's too much. I have to have been.
I sometimes wondered myself about that, But the more I
read about it, then the more more research I do it,

(31:20):
and the more I find the fascinating and interesting things
like like those stories, you kind of referenced what a
prescient thinker he was in many ways, and how he
could see way ahead of what was going on in
terms of current and contemporary science. How do you think
Hugh Dryden would view today's NASA and its achievements since

(31:40):
he did miss all of the big sort of news
headline type events. Well, Tryden didn't live long enough to
see the X fifteen fly, which that's a part of
the story I haven't even touched on yet. But he
was crucial to starting the X fifteen project and and
and actually getting the Air Force in the Navy to
come up with the money to make the sifting project happened. Uh.

(32:02):
But uh, but he'd actually get to see the X
fifteen fly, And of course he didn't didn't last long
enough to see the Apollo program reached the Moon. But
I sort of imagine um that Dryden would respond to
um the current state of NASA with sort of his
the right enigmatic smile that you see in pictures of

(32:22):
him quite frequently. Uh, where he'd I think he'd be
very proud of of what NASA had accomplished. Um, of
course he had attribute that the accomplishments of other people, probably,
but uh, I think it'd be very proud of what happened.
But it also be I think a little sad that that,
you know, we didn't continue on at the same pace

(32:45):
that that we were in the sixties, Because it's clear
from speeches that he gave and uh, and his writings
that he really thought that the world had reached an
inflection point with the space race and that that we
were going to go to as a as a you
know race, you know, humans would get out to the
Moon and then get onto Mars and uh, and that

(33:07):
we would, you know, by this point in time, probably
have a um, you know, much more robust economy out
in space. Uh. But again, I think he'd probably have
that that sort of rice smile because it also, having
been a bureaucrat most of his life, realized that, you know,
things don't always turn out the way you plan and
uh and sometimes uh, you know, you you know, you

(33:30):
take what you get and you're happy with with those things.
So I think it'd be Um, I think it'd be
pretty happy with how things turned out. I wonder how
he would react to really how much of a legacy
he's left, even though things don't always have his name
on them. Clearly a lot of what has happened in

(33:51):
the time since he's been gone has been due to
the work he was doing when he was alive. Yeah,
but I think that never really mattered to him. Yeah, So,
I mean, so I think it could probably say, yeah, well.
In fact, in some ways, I think you'd probably internally
see it as a success. You know, all these great
things happened, I helped make them happen, and nobody noticed. That.

(34:12):
Isn't that good? So we really cannot thank Bill Burry
enough for sharing his time and his knowledge with us.
I am so thankful that he wrote to us, because
had he not, maybe never would have come back to
Hugh Dryden. And there's really no getting around what an

(34:33):
important part of NASA his story is really is, and
also just what a fascinating person he is in history. Yeah,
so I'm so thankful and I feel so lucky that
we got to have him on the show. Do you
also have some listener mail for us? I do, and
it's about roses. Yeah. This is from our listener, MICHAELA.
I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. She writes, Dear Holly

(34:53):
and Tracy, I thoroughly enjoyed your recent episode on the
history of roses. Not having a green thumb myself, I've
always found rose is beautiful, but never knew much about them.
This is my asside. Roses are shockingly easy to grow.
I don't think I have a green thumb and I
have a lot of roses growing in my house. That
being said, I recently traveled to Portland, Oregon, and had
the opportunity to visit the International Rose Test Garden there.

(35:16):
If you're not familiar with it, I highly recommend a visit.
It has more than six and fifty varieties roses spanning
over four acres, and while there, I was fascinated to
learn that the rose garden was established during World War
One as a safe haven for European hybrid roses that
were endangered by the bombings during the war. I've copied
a paragraph from the Parks Department website below and that

(35:37):
reads quote In nineteen fifteen, Jesse, a Curry rose hobbyist
and Sunday editor of the Oregon Journal, convinced city officials
to institute a rose test garden to serve as a
safe haven during World War One for hybrid roses grown
in Europe. Rose lovers feared that these unique plants would
be destroyed in the bombings. The Park Bureau approved the
idea in nineteen seventeen, and by early nineteen eighteen, hybridist

(36:00):
from England began to send roses in Ninete. Florence Holmes girky.
I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. The landscape
architect for the City of Portland was charged with designing
the International Rose Test Garden and the Amphitheater. The garden
was dedicated in June nine four. Currie was appointed as
the garden's first rose curator and served in that capacity

(36:21):
until his death in nineteen seven. Uh And she goes
on to say the garden has plenty of historically significant roses,
including an entire section of roses that were mentioned in
Shakespeare's plays and named after his characters. I was delighted
to discover that it is also home to some thoroughly
modern creations, including roses that smell like grape soda, bubblegum,
and creamsicle. There is a centennial celebration this summer, so

(36:44):
if any of your listeners are in the area, I
encourage them to visit, as it is a truly special place.
An admission is free. I want everybody to go to that,
and I want them to take me with. I have
been to it once, but it was too early in
the year for anything to be blooming, and it was
one of those or we just stopped in just in case. Uh,
and it just in case it was it was too early.

(37:04):
I had no idea it existed, and now I have
a place that I have to go in Oregon. Yeah,
so that's pretty exciting. So if you would like to
write to us, you can do so at History Podcast
at how stuff works dot com. You can also find
us across the spectrum of social media as Missed in History.
That means on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on Pinterest,
and on tumbler. Uh. You can also visit us at

(37:27):
our homepage, which is missed in History dot com, where
you will find every single episode of the show that's
ever existed, as well as show notes for any of
the episodes that Tracy and I have worked on together.
We have no consolidated show notes into the show page,
so it's a little simpler to navigate. Uh. You can
also go to our parents site, how stuff works dot
com and type in anything you wish in the search bar,

(37:48):
including space history, or roses or anything else. You'll come
up with all kinds of stuff to look at. So
come and visit us at missed in History dot com
and how stuff Works dot com. For more on this
and thousands of other topics, visit howstoff works dot com,