March 9, 2024 • 50 mins
Breaking up is hard to do. Your brain might even think you're getting over a cocaine addiction. Learn all about the science behind break-ups in this classic episode!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's Select, I've
chosen our twenty nineteen episode on the science of breakups.
It's just a straight ahead, interesting episode about people and
what makes us tick. I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's
Charles w Chuck Bryan over there, there's Jerry Rush Rush Rush, Jerry.
This is Stuff you Should Know, the breakup edition.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Right, Three people who you've never broken up with one another? No,
that's true, the last three great point modern triad.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, the tryad.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So I picked this one out because mainly this is
a refrain. We get an email a lot. We hear
from heartbroken people a lot, sure more than you would
think that are just like, that's so sad. Lots of
broken hearts up and you you guys have helped me
with this show as a distraction, which we will learn
as one of the official ways to get over a breakup.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, look over here, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So it just got me thinking about, like, is there
any science behind breakups and the emotions that go along
with it. And it turns out there's a lot, like
a disturbing amount of study has been done. I know
when you look at it, you're like, oh, man, maybe
you should have allocated that money toward research toward other things.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, like cancer. Yeah, although social psychology couldn't do anything
about cancer.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
No, And it's you know, it's not like they're like, oh, well,
we'll just it's all taken from one big pool, so
we'll just allocate some of this breakup money toward cancer research.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Sure, it's not. It works, well, you could allocate the money,
but the mental energy, I guess, is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, but that was just it seemed like study after study.
And also we should point out too that I think
there was one case in here of one study where
they looked at homosexual couples, But most of this study
is like cisgendered straight couples. Yeah, through that lens only,
(02:25):
they're not doing a ton of research outside that.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I found I found one that, uh that that tracks
it correlates the likelihood of breaking up to time, and
they had it broken out by same sex and straight,
married and unmarried. Those are like the four categories. So
some people are doing it, sure, but yeah, for the
(02:48):
most part now. And I think one of the reasons
why Chuck is a lot of this is from the
mid two thousand's, early twenty tens. Yeah, and that was,
you know, was about the last like the tail end
of that. Now I think it's starting to change, fortunately, right,
because people of all genders and sexual orientation break up
(03:13):
and get dumped, and we're here to help all of you.
So buckle in, grab a hanky, and let's get through this.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, I mean, let's we should go ahead and start
out by saying, I guess that in theory, more people
are breaking up now because people are generally waiting longer
to get married. So if you could extrapolate that if
you're not married for ten more years than let's say
our parents were, right, then maybe you've gone through a
couple more breakups along the way.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah. We should give a shout out to Kristen Conger
of Unladylike Media Yeah Kongs, who wrote this article our
old pal, and she points out that that typically means
that you are going to find somebody who you work
with rather than rushing into it. But it also, as
she puts it, like leaves the window open longer for
heartbreak to be dumped. Yeah, one thing I saw, Chuck.
(04:04):
This is mind boggling to me. Eighty five percent of people,
according to this one study, will be dumped in their lifetime,
will experience being a breakup in their lifetime. That means
fifteen percent of humanity won't. That is those are some
interesting people.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Eight fifteen percent have not had a breakup or been
broken up with.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Will not in their lifetime. They're just going to either
never have a relationship or the first time they're going
to hit it out of the park.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
But that doesn't mean like or subtle I've never been dumped.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, Like they'll never have gone through a breakup.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
But I've been through breakups. I've been the dumper.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Right, I know what you're saying. No, I believe that
they will not have experienced a breakup in their lifetime.
Either way, Well that's great.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
That means they sure, yeah, they met the person that
they love when they're young, probably again.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Or it means that they decided to of their life
alone just fine, right, or or both they like I said,
they decided like, yeah, I'm just gonna stick with this person. Yeah,
I don't want to I want to be what I
don't want to ruin my record, my spotless record.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I think it's very interesting here that supposedly, and this
is very hinky how they found this out about the
spikes and breakups from Like, that's.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
A Facebook data poll, so media doesn't count, social psychology
doesn't count.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I agree, But it doesn't make a little bit of sense.
And I could see this being true that generally dumping
someone or getting broken up with can happen on any
day of the year, but there are spikes in early
December and early March, yeah, because of Christmas holidays and
spring break.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah, And technically you could see that being true. There
has I'm sure it's true at least on Facebook. And yeah,
this is a pretty big data pull. But it's like,
that's so lazy.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
It's lazy. But I see it because it's it makes
a little bit of sense that you would not want
to go through the holidays with someone that And you
said a thing too, And this is important to point out,
like when the breakup happens, when that talk or these
days text message or phone call happens, it's not okay,
that is the end of something for maybe both of you,
(06:24):
but definitely one of you.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, sometimes most of the time.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
That that actual act of saying we're breaking up, that's
at the end of many, many weeks or even months
or even years of contemplation about whether or not you
want to still be with this person.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Right, And that's why being broken up with is almost
across the board, way harder sure than breaking up because
by the time, like you said, by the time the
person who initiates the breakup initiates the breakup is this
is at the end of a long road of decision making,
Whereas the other person might have been blissfully unaware or
(07:00):
at least wilfully ignorant or not willing to address the issues,
and so they are one way or another largely caught
off guard by being broken up with. So the person
who does the breaking up has already gone through all
these stages of grief of separation, Whereas now it's this person,
the person who's just been dumped, it's their time to
(07:21):
go through it.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right. So, if you're doing the dumping, like the hour
after you have that conversation, you're like, what a relief,
I'm I'm starting over. Let's go get some gin, Whereas
the dumpy is like, let's go get some gin. That begins,
that begins their process. Although the only thing I'll take
issue with that whole line of thought though, is that
a lot of people, even that might get dumped, aren't
(07:45):
like what like They may have known and just didn't
want to admit it or weren't brave enough or strong
enough to do it themselves.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, and I agree with you on that. I think
that there's still a thread that they had not been
preparing themselves just by being in SAE denial and willing
to address it face it. Now they have no choice
but to face reality, whereas the person who did the
breakup was like facing reality and coming to terms with
(08:15):
it quietly, sure, and then now it's your.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Turn, right, Which brings me back to my original point,
which is Christmas and spring break make a little bit
of sense because the person who was desperate to get
out of a relationship and break up with somebody, they're
staring at those Christmas holidays and that first week of
December rolls around, They're like, I gotta do this now
because I don't want to travel a lot of time
(08:39):
with this person and go through the whole gift thing, right,
and the holidays are just it's tough to be in
a relationship that's a lie.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Well, it's sure because the holidays, I mean, the holidays
are so about like connecting and feeling and warmth and
all that, and if you're faking it or have to
fake it, you know, some people are like, I'm not
going through that, no good. I also saw an explanation
in Harper's Bizarre of All Places that some people may
do that because of the pressure of coming up with
(09:06):
a really good gift, sure that the relationship is not
worth the pressure of coming up with a good gift
outweighs the value of the relationship to those people. Or
there are some people who don't want to put their
significant other through that, so they just break up proactively, right,
which also means that they didn't value the relationship that
(09:26):
much either, But at least in their mind, they're not
doing it for themselves. They're doing it for the other
person because they don't want to put the other person
through that pressure of having to get the perfect gift. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I've never had that thing either, where you start dating
someone and it's like a couple of weeks for their
birthday or Christmas, and you're and then that pressure of like,
oh man, how do I play this one?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
You know, a couple after a couple of weeks, Yeah,
oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
This person? But how deep do I go on this
gift here?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I don't really know you, So I got you a
basket of socks. Everyone loves socks.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So here's an Amazon gift card for thirty eight fifty.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right, Yeah, after a couple of weeks, it's a little
it's a little close. Yeah, I come up with a
perfect gift, or even be expected to.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And I did mention breaking up by text or whatever,
like you would suspect if you were born before nineteen
seventy five, like myself, you break up in person supposedly
about seventy four percent of the time. Not bad post
nineteen eighty four. If you were born less than fifty
percent of the time, you're going to do that in person.
(10:36):
And they say generation, Why whatever that is?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I think it's millennials, is it? I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
When did they name them?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Like?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Do they know what?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Like?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Does my daughter have a generation already? I don't know,
like a name.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I'm sure somebody out there is name your daughter's generation.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I annoying, don't box her in right?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, you got a pigeonhole folks, let her grow.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Up, be your own person. But if you are jen y,
you're or likely thirty percent to do it over the phone.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And of course this says a searing instant message or
an email. I think these days you would call that
a text.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And email is the lowest percent wise and compassion wise
four percent of people. That's the worst break up by email.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
What was this?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Pretty bad? Email? Is as bad as it gets?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Was it sex in the city where it was a
sticky note?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
No? I don't remember. I feel like the movie or
the show. I didn't see the movie Sticky Note Break,
I think.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So should we take a break?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, let's take a break? Man? All right, this is
going really really well so far. All right, Chuck. So
(12:07):
we've talked about when people break up, how they break up,
why do they break up?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Well, actually, there's one more, okay, I think pretty important
thing about the how, which is men and women. Women
tend to present and this sort of makes sense to
if you want to be stereotypically, you know, stereotypical about it.
Women tend to present a list of grievances.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Here's all the things wrong with you both.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Pretty much, whereas men it's a little more supposedly a
little more nebulous.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Where'd the magic go?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's apparently the difference is as far as like rationale
for breaking up.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And these are so macro level and broad and how
we talk about it. It's a little embarrassing to even do.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
To talk about this stuff. I know I wouldn't do this.
Women do this right. No, it's absolutely true. That's but
I feel like when you talk about this, people can
find themselves in the contours of of all if you
put all this stuff together, if you just took one
study and said that this is definitive, people should should
punch you in the kidney, agreed, but not really don't
(13:19):
punch anybody. You know, everyone. Over the last almost eleven
years of stuff, you should know, I've said a lot
of things that make it sound like I'm inciting people
to violence.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Friendly violence.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I was joking every single time why someone said something. No,
I just I just want to make sure that everyone
knows that I was never ever actually serious in saying
hit somebody in the head with a tag camera or
punch someone in the kidney. Actually, I'm kidding all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Except for when you recommend that you pants somebody, and.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I was kidding even then that's psychological abuse.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
It is.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
It's physical, but it's more psychological than anything.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You ever been pants in front of people?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yes? Really, yes, And I can tell you it's psychological.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I don't think I've ever been pantsed. Boy, I can't
imagine anything more horrifying than being pantsed. What's underwear on?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
What? I can confirm that because I can't remember being pantsed.
I just remember that I have been pants So I
think I just immediately blocked out everything.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, so no story, no story there. Okay, So if
you get broken up with, you will feel and we're
going to talk about the science of a lot of
this because it's very similar to overcoming addictions sometimes but
of course depression and anxiety, sometimes suicidal.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Thoughts, sometimes homicide. Oh sure, that's a that's an outcome,
a worst case outcome. That and suicide of breakups, but
they are directly related to break That's how bad breakups
can be.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, And apparently, you know when people do write in
about getting dumped and stuff, I always say, you know,
it's the most trite thing in the world. But like
time is the only thing that really helps. Yeah, like
ice cream and stuff like that is good, but like
it really does decrease over time. However, in studies, eight
(15:23):
weeks after being dumped in this study, forty percent of
people still had signs of clinical depression, and twelve percent
appeared moderately or severely depressed. So it depends on the
relationship along you're in it, how much it meant to you,
what kind of person you are. But it can stick
around for a bit.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
It can. So the thing is, though, there are things
you can do to help accelerate the healing process, and
we'll talk about those at the end. How about that. Okay,
we'll make y'all wait, all right, So where are we at, Chuck?
Are we at the well?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
The attachment styles I think is interesting because we did
talk about like gay, straight, cisgendered, you know, on the
gender spectrum. Maybe none of that matters. Maybe what matters
is what they call your attachment styles.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
That's what this says pretty plainly. Tho. Yeah, that's what
it comes down.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
To, how you attach yourselves to other people.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
You can be a needy, clingy dude. You can be
a avoidant woman, yeah, or you can be either one
of those things. Anywhere on the gender spectrum. That's the thing,
like the idea that women are clinging and men are
distant is fabled. Yeah, it's at least ham fisted.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, I think so. It's sort of that thing in
social science that bothers me, which is like, you're either
this or this, right, like one thing or the other.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And really all you are is a white college student.
That's what they really mean.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, who had a little time on their hands.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Right, you needed extra credit.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But there are two supposedly again two things attachment styles,
anxious attachment and avoidant well attachment.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Conger points out, like, that's two ends of a spectrum.
Oh okay, and you can fall somewhere on there. There's
actually a it's pretty straightforward. It's the OIS, I believe
or OSI. It's a scale where you pick how your
relationship is best described by a series of ven diagrams,
(17:24):
and one circles you, and one circle is your significant other,
and they're just increasingly together, from just barely touching to
almost completely merged into one single circle, and you just
circle the one that best describes your sense of what
your relationships like, and that supposedly gets your spectrum replacement
(17:45):
on the spectrum of attachment across. Oh interesting, So it's
real subjective and self reported, so that is to say,
not scientific, right.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Unfortunately, Supposedly two thirds of women initiate divorces, and in
this article it says that might give them a statistical
edge over getting over a relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Because they initiated the breakup, so they've been in the
process already. Maybe that's what I think she meant.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I think so, I'm just not so sure that just
because a woman initiates a divorce, it may have been
after years of systematic abuse, you know, which may not
mean like she's so ready to get over this quicker
than he might be.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Right, you know, Yeah, No, I mean you can't just
say it like if X, then Y. With this stuff,
it's relationship, sir as messy as as humans get. It's
a relationship. Yeah, that's all you need to say.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, let's talk about the brain a little bit, because
this is where it does get a little more interesting,
I think, slightly god slightly more scientific.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
There was a study in twenty eleven by neurologist at
the Einstein College of Medicine which sounded totally fake, totally,
but it's not.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I have sounds made up written down.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's in the bronx.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, there's also reputable. There were also anthropologists from Rutgers
in Sunni to legitimize things.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh in this study, if Rutgers is legitimizing things, sure,
we're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh really, is that? Is that? Really? I thought Rutgers
was all right? Or am I confusing of its toughs?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Uh? You're probably thinking Princeton, okay, both New Jersey schools.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I thought Rutgers was the public ivy. Okay, sorry, Rutgers.
I tried the check back.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Then they're gonna be so mad at me. I've hung
out at Rutgers.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I've been there people, so you know what you're talking about.
I know exactly what I'm Is it like the Detroit
of New Jersey colleges or something.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
That's not untrue?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Okay, all right, you don't disagree, boy, we're gonna.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Get killed, that's okay. So this study from Einstein College
of Medicine found that just looking at a photograph of
an ex partner caused the second somo somatosensory cortex and
the dorsal posterior insula. Nice geez, and these areas process
(20:13):
physical discomfort. They start lighting up. The same thing as
happens is when you get physically injured basically.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Right like you are in actual, legitimate pain as far
as your brain is concerned, in the midst of a breakup,
at least when you're stuck in an MRI machine and
showing a picture of your recent X.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Which is a big deal now with social media, because
every modern article I read about breakups and getting over
them talked about what a deletrious effect social media will
have on your recovery process.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Are you taunting me?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Because the stuff's everywhere now? It used to be easy.
You could just throw everything in a shoe box and
set it on fire and send it down a river
and a little boat made of rage. Sure, but you
can't do that anymore because they're everywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
No, but that's that's tip number one from psychologist Guy Wench,
author of How to Fix a Broken Heart. Stay the
h off of social media. Do not stalk your ex
on social do not check in, like just separate.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I imagine that would be really hard because in the
old days it was just left to your imagination to
think about how much fun they were having m with
You know, now you can see pictures of the nine
new boyfriends that she has, right, but yeah, you're right now,
or you know, maybe it helps.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I'm people, I don't know. I think it's imperative that
you not do that to help to help, Like, it's
not like watching them on social media will prevent you
from ever getting over it. I think no matter what
you do, you're going to eventually get past this. Sure,
but all you're doing is prolonging the process, and that
(21:58):
like unnecessarily.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah. And then also when you were on the fMRI
machine and they did brain scans from people who had
been broken up with recently, they found that very much
similar to people overcoming like an addiction to cocaine, and
that that same circuitry is of overcoming addiction is just
lighting up. It's that potent.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah. So so far with this MRI study from Albert
Einstein came up with is that you were in physical
pain from the breakup. Huh, And you're the same centers
that are activated by addiction. Cravings withdrawals are activated by
the breakup as well. That's astounding.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, And this weird mental cycle happens basically when you
do look at like a photograph of a what they
say a former lover.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
You're right, like the burger king laying rug pair skin rug.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
But you will, you'll see the photo. And the weird
thing is you'll immediately get a reward. You will get
a dopamine hit, like a pleasurable feeling by seeing this person.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And then you realize, oh wait, well then you.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Get sad all right immediately afterward, and then that sagnus sagnus,
Where did that come from?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
It is a little saggy feeling.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
That triggers the brain's ventral tegmental area and the nucleus
acumen bins acumen bins.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I think, so, I know we've run into that before.
We just talk about the brain a lot more human beins.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I think we figured out the brain though, right, so
we stopped.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, we were like done.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
But these two things working together, regardless of how I
mispronounced them, they trigger the urge to see that person.
So you get sad, and then your brain lights up
in two areas and then you go, hey, I remember
that dopamine hit you get from looking this picture. Why
don't you just give them a call and see what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Right? You want the real stuff? Go go get home.
They also those two areas apparently also are analytical as
well well. So they're responsible for rehashing the relationship, but
apparently they're not very realistic because most people, when rehashing
the relationship, highlight the good parts and forget about all
(24:14):
the bad parts.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I kind of have tended to do that, I think
everybody does.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I don't understand why. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I don't agree with that. Like Emily, and we of
course been married so long the subject never comes up anymore.
But I was always like, oh, with the old girlfriend,
what was so bad there? And then if I really
thought about it, I would remember where She's always like,
oh that was awful?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Oh really? Yeah, gotcha? Well she's smart.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah maybe so and I'm not dumb dumb so but okay.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
So even and you're not dumb dumb, even if like
you represent a third of people or a half of
people who do when rehashing, only think about the good
stuff and forget about all the negative stuff, like what
is that? Why does that even happen? It's bizarre if
you think about.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
The personality thing. What if I tend to be optimistic? Maybe?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Or yeah, yeah, I guess that's a pretty good explanation
to tell you the truth. What I was going to
say is if you look at relationships or romantic love
sure as an evolutionary drive to pair and mate sure
successfully over and over again, and to stay together, that
would bring you back to this person that you've already
(25:30):
connected with, rather than making you go look for another mate.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So maybe it's kind of like a backstop or fail
safe for breakups evolutionarily speaking.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Right, Like I was so close to having nine babies,
Like I really want to start all over again.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right right, Which is funny because that means that Emily's
more evolved than you in that sense.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, in every sense, that's awesome. But the end of
that mental cycle, basically, though, is those areas light up
that say go back and see that person. Then you
are immediately unsatisfied and about the fact that that's not happening.
That's when your pre frontal cortex trips into gear and
that's when you get angry. And it's just that mental
(26:12):
cycle that starts seeing that photo on a social media
platform and ending up upset ye in the end.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
But the same study led by Helen Fisher, found that
after over time, the same process is greatly degraded. Sure,
I think they did a follow up in well months,
Conger says, found that the whole process and all of
the neurochemicals and the brain regions are much less active,
(26:42):
which again, just time, give it.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Time, right. But if you don't give it time and
you do the thing where you do get back together,
that can be great, you know, it's sometimes you can
work it out and people can change.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But there's a big caveat there.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Well, right, go ahead, no no, no, no, you say yours okay,
because I think I'm talking about something else.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So what I saw was that if you get back together,
rather than saying like this is a fresh start, we're
going to try this over again, we're going to really
make a go of it. If you do that, all
you're going to do is just walk right back into
the same pitfalls and pratfalls, because the separation probably did
nothing or virtually nothing to your individual personalities, which are
(27:28):
the source of all of your conflicts. So it's not
like you just magically worked your conflicts out and you're
getting back together and everything's fine. That's just a charade.
But if you get back together and say I decided
I love you the way you are and I don't
want to be away from you, and I just accept
you for you, and I accept our relationship with all
(27:49):
of its problems. You're probably going to have a successful
reunion if you go into it like all of our
problems are solved because we broke up. You're just going
to do the same thing again down the line. Apparently
a fairly frequent thing that something like sixty percent or
some crazy percentage of younger the younger generation generation. Why,
(28:10):
I guess the process of breaking up the majority of
them that breakup involves getting back together multiple times, not
just once. Yeah, so you're getting back together and just
going through the same pattern. I think there's a field
of thought in psychology called scripts. These are scripts that
we're playing out one another's scripts, and if you don't
(28:31):
alter the script, you're going to go through the same
script over and over again. You're working out the same
things from your past or from your childhood against one another,
and you're not doing it the right way. So all
you're doing is creating conflict. And that doesn't just magically
go away because you spend a couple of months apart.
You have to just say i'd love you for who
you are, and we're going to just keep going.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, I think what I was going to say was,
don't they think though that that also depends on just
what kind of person you are in terms of thinking,
either people can really make substantial change in their lives
or they can't.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
That's how how you deal with a breakup, which we'll
talk about in a minute.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That sounds like a good place for a break I.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Think so too, all right.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Before we get to that what we were just talking
about before the split. This is one piece of data
from the same sex couple community. Supposedly from studies, they
do think that same sex couples are better at staying friends.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I saw that after a breakup, which.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Particularly lesbian couples. Yeah, and then gay men and then
straight couples are.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Like, forget about it so long. Yeah, it's an interesting thing.
Can you really be friends after? And it all depends
on how intense and how long and how kind of
a person you are. But yeah, it's interesting when I
meet people that legitimately are friends with people that they
seriously dated years later.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
It's pretty rare, I think. Actually I think it's too.
I think it seems less rare because you see it
on like TV shows, A lot, you know, and it's
also almost aspirational, like, oh, look at how like how
laid back and like with these people are that they
can be friends after this, you know. I think it's
pretty rare, actually, I think it's an idealized form, right,
(30:51):
because people like to you like to think that like
you're on good terms with everybody in your life.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think that's usually the person breaking up though. There
it's like I'd like to still be friends, right sure,
whereas the person getting broken up with this, like or
you could get hit by car, right, yeah, and that
would solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah. And then sticking with the whole same sex straight thing,
are we saying straight still?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I don't know. That doesn't feel right, does it.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
It doesn't, So let's just say same sex and hetero. Yeah, hetero.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
There's a clinical name for it.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Boy. So the time and marriage seemed to be the
two greatest indicators, at least as far as this one
study I saw went for the likelihood of staying together
over long periods of time. Right, all relationships, same sex
and hetero man woman, all of them are in at
(31:48):
the greatest risk of breakup within the first year or two.
And then it starts to drop precipitously. But I think
married hetero couples have a fairly low rate of a
low chance of breaking up over time. It's pretty much
flat the whole time, say, and then with same sex couples,
(32:10):
the same thing happens. The chance of breakup is pretty
high at the beginning, and then it starts to come down,
and then it's basically tracks with hetero couples. For marriage,
So marriage is kind of the factor. Time is the
second factor, but then time stops being a factor after
like thirty forty years. For unmarried couples, both hetero and
(32:30):
same sex, they start to break up after year like
thirty or forty, like, the chance of a breakup increases. Yeah,
but once you get married, once you get a ring
on it, over time, over like you know, decades is
what we're talking about. Your chance is almost nil of
breaking up, right, like less than I think of percent.
But that doesn't sound right because to like half of
(32:52):
all marriages into divorce. Yeah, this thing was way off,
But maybe that's when taking into account, maybe that's front
loaded by all the divorces that happened in the first
five years or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah, Okay, that would make a little bit more sense.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
They do find that your chances of getting over a
breakup or adjusting to that new post breakup life really
centers around regaining your sense of self. That when you
couple up with someone. It's not saying you can't have
a sense of self anymore, because it's very healthy too. Sure,
but there's an inevitable absorption and morphing that happens, and
(33:33):
a little bit of your sense of self goes away
when you couple.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, all the same friends, the same phone number, yeah,
and the same madre yes.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah. Boy. What about couples that share the email address?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah? You mean I have one? Really?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Sure, never had one, But you have your own too, well.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, we just have our own, but we have our
shared one too.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think I'm talking about the people that just have
the shared address. Sure, I've always found that interesting. Yeah,
I'm judging. I don't know anybody who just as a
shared address. I don't get why people would have the
same one. I guess I just always Emily sells a
MindSpring address.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Oh wow, is it Emily atmindspring dot com.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
No, And that is the truth, because I'm not saying
that just to keep people from emailing her. But she's
she had it for so long and I make fun
of her all the time, sure because she still pays
like twenty dollars a year for this what And she
was like, I've had it for so long that I
just can't give it up.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Well that's why people stay on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, Like, I'm not changing my email address.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
There's like so many of your memories there.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's like, well even that just her contact list and
every email, Like, I don't know, I just think it's funny.
I was like, where's that money going?
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Right? Who owns MindSpring? The air of the mind Spring fortune?
He can count on twenty bucks a month.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Back of cigarettes every month because of Emily yep oh
Man and then for recovery the whole stress related growth
thing that can happen with which is and I think
women tend to be more apt to do this than men.
But like, all right, you know what, I'm free now.
(35:08):
I'm gonna do all those things that I lost while
I was with him. I didn't have time for my
friends anymore. I lost connections with them.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I didn't do I didn't fly model airplanes or RCA
airplanes anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm gonna drop some weight. I'm gonna start eating healthier.
The post breakup weight loss is a huge, huge thing.
It is, and partially from stress, but partially just because
like I'm gonna make myself the best I can be
and I'll show her or him.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I think it's also like just as simple as like
more free time.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Sure, you know too, and something to do that is,
you know, exercises also stress relieving. You might not be
eating as much because your stomach is tied up into stress.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Nots right.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So there are a bunch of reasons for it.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
But here is that. Here's where that that part you
were talking about earlier I said we would get to
kind of kicks in. Is how much of the so
you identify with does relate to how well you handle
a breakup? How much of your how much of the
you is the we in the relationship? Yeah, And what
(36:10):
they found is that that's a huge part of it.
But more significant is the amount of growth that happens
while you're in a relationship, Like you can share a
tremendous amount of the same self with your significant other
and grow as a person as a result. And if
you do that, you're actually going to have a harder
(36:30):
breakup because that we that that super attachment that led
to that personal growth is related to that other person
who's now gone. Whereas if you were you even if
you were totally in messed with another person, but you
didn't grow much personally. If you experience a burst of
growth after the breakup, you're going to have the easiest
(36:52):
breakup of all. Even though you were super in messed
with the person, you weren't growing, But then you grow afterward.
Now that period of non growth is related to that
person who's gone, and you can be like, so long zero,
I'm gonna make myself a hero, yeah, DC, sure did
they come across? Yeah, because sometimes I'm not the best
(37:15):
at explaining things.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Which is pretty funny if you think about it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
In two thousand, they did a study at Northwestern University
where they did find out though that they ask people,
I believe, how bad do you think this breakup is
going to be? If you know you're in a relationship,
what if you broke up? And then they found out
that they weren't as bad off as they thought they
(37:43):
would be, which is encouraging.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
It is, but also think about this, Chuck, These vultures
who are running the study where like, you're in a relationship,
just we're going to study just in case you guys
break up. Yeah, And so they would get that info,
that self reporting info about how bad the breakup of be,
and then they swooped in upon the breakup. They're like,
how bad is it?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Tell us And the person was like, well, this is
as bad as it is, And it was almost across
the board. Yeah, not anywhere near as bad as the
people thought it would be when they were in the relationship. Yeah,
which is pretty surprising. And what was even more surprising
is the more in love you are, the easier it's
(38:24):
going to be relative to how bad do you think
it will be during the relationship, right, Which makes sense
if you stop and think about it.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah. I thought the other interesting thing too, when we
were talking about getting over a breakup and your sense
of self, that's closely tied to how you feel about rejection.
And there are a couple of I mean more than
a couple of ways. But if your reflection of your
(38:52):
how you think about rejection is tied heavily into how
you feel about yourself, so there's some people that might
be rejected and it might devastate them because they start
to analyze themselves and what did I do wrong? And
what's wrong with me? Right, there's a whole other camp
out there, And I think this goes into personality and
ego and all that stuff. But you call these people
(39:13):
healthy or sociopaths, maybe, Oh, it's probably on a range.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow, I just we just put both of our cards
on the table. Then.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
But the people that are like, yeah, I got broken
up with and I but and I got rejected. But
you know, as happens that happens in life, people get rejected.
It's not because of me, I just not everyone. You know,
So you find together, you.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Find this quote sociopathic. I learned that two people can
both be quality individuals, but that doesn't mean they belong together.
That's sociopathic to you.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
That's that was Oh wait, it says you said that
it was Ted.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Bundy, Patrick Bateman.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No, no, no, I don't think it necessarily necessarily means
you're a sociopath. But I think someone with that is
a true sociopath would probably be way more apt to
be like, oh yeah, well.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
It was them, not me.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, It's like it's fine, your point breakup.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
There's a sub a subgroup to that sociopath as you
call it camp, and they are like, well, breakups happen.
I heard what the other person said, and there's some
things I feel like I need to work on, Like say,
I was a terrible communicator, so I'm going to work
on becoming a better communicator as a result. It's called
stress related growth is what that's called. Where you're growing
(40:26):
out of this horrific experience. And that's healthy, that's super healthy.
But they the key is what's unhealthy is to say
this was all because of some fatal flaw that I have,
that's part of my personality that I'll never be able
to get rid of. And so all I'm going to
do is poison every relationship from here on out, and
(40:49):
I'm just going to build walls and keep everybody at
a distance. And that's what some people do as a
result of a breakup. And you can't do that. Even
if your brain starts to go that way. This research says,
stop it. Don't you have to disassociate yourself become the sociopath.
I guess if it need be to say this is
not because of an inherent flaw in me, that's uncorrectable,
(41:13):
even if the person was right, even if they're like,
you're a terrible communicator and you have serious mommy issues,
that doesn't mean that you will always be a terrible
communicator with serious mommy issues. You could work on those
post breakup and become a much better SOO to the
next person or whatever. The key is not being a
(41:36):
fatalist like there's nothing you can do to change. And
then also you should evaluate whether the person was saying
that in anger, how much faith you put in their
opinion of you. There's a lot of factors that you
need to take into account before you take on that
kind of thing that just puts you in the bottom
of a well where you could conceivably hang out for
(41:57):
the rest of your life if you're not careful without
copious amounts of therapy.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah agreed, or turning to drugs and alcohol, which is
a big, gin yeah, big thing that a lot of
people do.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Gin cuts both ways.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Should we talk about some of these tips from.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
This guy, the psychologist Guy Wench. Remember number one is
don't check up on them on social media.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Good luck with that.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Here's why. He says that this will reinforce your ex's
presence in your mind and will make it harder for
you to stop fantasizing about your broken relationship. You're basically
just like literally keeping them right there in front of
your face, right through social media. Yeah, which is why
it's a bad idea.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Number two, avoid creating mysteries about why the breakup happened.
And again, this is along those same lines of just
keeping your ex like forefront in your mind, which is hard.
I mean it's gonna take a little while. Sure, he says,
next day to pop up and just be like, well,
they're out of my mind.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
That's sociopathic.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, even if you're the breaker upper, you know, it
doesn't mean that you don't have a process to go
through as well.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Sure, you know, but that's why he says, avoid creating mysteries,
like it's it's probably going to happen, but like be
mindful when it's going on and be like enough, I'm
going to go work out, yeah, or go drink some
gin or both.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Number three, Make a list of all the comp Oh,
this is a good one. Make a list of all
the compromises that you had to make that you don't
want to make again. Start to think about like, yeah,
you know when I was with this person, I felt
like I could never really have my real sense of
humor out in public because they thought it was loud.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
That counters that that rehashing that just focuses on the positive. Yeah,
it cuts the legs out from under that set and legs.
What about Number four?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Do the things that used to bring you enjoyment? Is
kind of what I was talking about earlier, even if
they don't seem interesting now. That whole thing where like, Jeez,
I used to really love pottery right and throwing clay, sure,
and I just I quit doing it once I started
dating Josh.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, Clay throwing my house.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
H and Josh hated it when Chuck went to the
Potter's Wheel because it reminded him of Ghost And Josh
hated that movie, so he wouldn't allow me to do it.
But you know what, I'm going to reclaim that pottery wheel.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, which is ironic because I was always walking around
our house just like Patrick swayzey in that scene. But
I still hated that movie. Oh that was more like
the Chris Farley, Chippindale Patrick swayzee version.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Number five Remove reminders. This is the box that you
will burn, which is now just throw your laptop in
the fireplace, right in your smartphone.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
And then like reconnect with your friends, Like, yeah, you
left him in the dusty years ago, but they're still alive.
They probably wouldn't mind hearing from you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
The problem here is is if you truly do have
a mix of friends that you both love, not like
I didn't leave behind all my old friends. Or the
worst case scenario is like all of my friends are
from you. Now what do I do?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Go down to the YMCA and make some new friends?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I guess. So I found this one last study I
thought was interesting. The best way to get over a
breakup according to science, And this is actually published in
the Journal of Experimental Psychology, And they tested a bunch
of strategies for getting over a breakup twenty four heartbroken
people ages twenty to thirty seven that had been in
(45:34):
at least a two and a half year relationship, so
pretty significant. Some were dumpies, some were dumpers, and they
said there were three strategies. One is to negatively reappraise
your ex just think about all the bad things. The
other one was called love reappraisal, which is believe and
(45:55):
read statements like it's okay to love someone I'm no
longer with it's all right. And then the third was distraction,
literally the ice cream and look over here movies trick,
the black mirror trick. And then there was the fourth prompt,
which was the control, which was don't think about anything.
Of course means you're thinking of the stape of March Vela.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
You don't think about anything. Really, just undermine the science
of that clear brain.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
So those were the four prompts. Then they showed everyone,
They hooked everyone up to an EEG machine, showed them
photos of their exes, and they measured the intensity of
emotion in response to that photo, and then had them
use these different prompts to see which one works best.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
When they looked in the people who were not thinking
about anything, they were bleeding out of their eye sockets.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
They were and according to the readings, all three, all
three of the strategies significantly decreased their emotional response to
the photos really relative to the control. If you looked
at your ex in a negative light that first one,
like there was such a jerk. You had a decrease
(47:03):
in feelings of love, but you left in a worse
mood like that judged up bad feelings.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Like you wasted your time or something all that.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Maybe or just like just really took me off thinking
about all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Right? You know?
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So now did dumb study.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Drove some clay?
Speaker 2 (47:20):
That's right, distraction made feel made you feel better overall,
but didn't that have much of an effect on how
you really felt about them? Okay, you just didn't leave
it necessarily a bad mood. You just got ice cream
and watched a funny movie good enough, which is fine.
But they said that that doesn't do anything long term
to help you recover. Oh okay, just like a temporary whatever.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Does it prolong it? Though? Do you think? I mean,
you know as much as the people conducting it said.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
It's a form of avoidance that is shown to reduce
the recovery.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Okay, so it would prolong it. Then, I guess. So
everybody stop eating ice cream and watching Black Mirror.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
And then love Appraisal show no effect on your mood
or how you feel about them, but it did dull
the emotional response a little bit, So.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
There's really nothing to do.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Doesn't sound like it.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I saw a couple more tips. One is you could
write a letter that under no circumstances, will you ever send?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, that's a good trick actually reship price like anything
bothering her.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
It also really works well for grieving too. You just
write a letter, sure, and you say whatever you want
because you know for a fact that the other person
will never read it. You could say whatever you want
and it's just like a cathartic process that can help
hasten things. And then also, why do sad songs feel
so good when you're going through a breakup? Why do
(48:46):
people seek out sad songs? And the best explanation I saw,
the best theory is that a song is a little
capsule of emotion, and when you're seeking out a sad song,
you're confronting the very emotions that you're probably stifling right then,
and confronting it in such a raw form forces you
to express those emotions i e. Cry and that helps
(49:09):
you process them faster because you're you're not pushing them
off any longer. You're you're you're you're expressing them, you're
sorting through them. So that's what sad songs make you do.
That's why people seek out sad songs when they're down,
and it actually helps hasten recovery Lady in Red. I
don't think that's a sad standing with me.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
That's the saddest song.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
You're like, savely it takes me away?
Speaker 2 (49:36):
That uh sailing by Christopher Cross Lady in Red, and
then Dan Fogelberg's saying same old anxione right, three set
of songs.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Jerry knows that song. Those were two Christopher Cross songs.
He's got two of the three sets.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
No, Lady in Red's not Christopher Cross.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Now five dollars, Jerry, we're all nodding.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Now, five dollars is on the table.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
All right, I'll look it up.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Well, you guys will find out next episode whether I
was right or not.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
I remember the guy's name.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
It's Christopher Cross. Oh, Jerry's rarely doing one of her
rare speaking parts. She says, Christoph Waltz. That's the actor.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
You know. What's funny is I mistyped something and it
changed my search to Lady in Red wings like red
wing boots. Boot must be a fetish side, I guess.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
So. Yeah. If you want to get in touch with me,
Chuck or Jerry, you can shoot us an email to
Stuff Podcast how Stuff Works dot.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
Com Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's Select, I've
chosen our twenty nineteen episode on the science of breakups.
It's just a straight ahead, interesting episode about people and
what makes us tick. I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's
Charles w Chuck Bryan over there, there's Jerry Rush Rush Rush, Jerry.
This is Stuff you Should Know, the breakup edition.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Right, Three people who you've never broken up with one another? No,
that's true, the last three great point modern triad.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, the tryad.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So I picked this one out because mainly this is
a refrain. We get an email a lot. We hear
from heartbroken people a lot, sure more than you would
think that are just like, that's so sad. Lots of
broken hearts up and you you guys have helped me
with this show as a distraction, which we will learn
as one of the official ways to get over a breakup.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, look over here, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So it just got me thinking about, like, is there
any science behind breakups and the emotions that go along
with it. And it turns out there's a lot, like
a disturbing amount of study has been done. I know
when you look at it, you're like, oh, man, maybe
you should have allocated that money toward research toward other things.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, like cancer. Yeah, although social psychology couldn't do anything
about cancer.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
No, And it's you know, it's not like they're like, oh, well,
we'll just it's all taken from one big pool, so
we'll just allocate some of this breakup money toward cancer research.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Sure, it's not. It works, well, you could allocate the money,
but the mental energy, I guess, is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, but that was just it seemed like study after study.
And also we should point out too that I think
there was one case in here of one study where
they looked at homosexual couples, But most of this study
is like cisgendered straight couples. Yeah, through that lens only,
(02:25):
they're not doing a ton of research outside that.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I found I found one that, uh that that tracks
it correlates the likelihood of breaking up to time, and
they had it broken out by same sex and straight,
married and unmarried. Those are like the four categories. So
some people are doing it, sure, but yeah, for the
(02:48):
most part now. And I think one of the reasons
why Chuck is a lot of this is from the
mid two thousand's, early twenty tens. Yeah, and that was,
you know, was about the last like the tail end
of that. Now I think it's starting to change, fortunately, right,
because people of all genders and sexual orientation break up
(03:13):
and get dumped, and we're here to help all of you.
So buckle in, grab a hanky, and let's get through this.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, I mean, let's we should go ahead and start
out by saying, I guess that in theory, more people
are breaking up now because people are generally waiting longer
to get married. So if you could extrapolate that if
you're not married for ten more years than let's say
our parents were, right, then maybe you've gone through a
couple more breakups along the way.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah. We should give a shout out to Kristen Conger
of Unladylike Media Yeah Kongs, who wrote this article our
old pal, and she points out that that typically means
that you are going to find somebody who you work
with rather than rushing into it. But it also, as
she puts it, like leaves the window open longer for
heartbreak to be dumped. Yeah, one thing I saw, Chuck.
(04:04):
This is mind boggling to me. Eighty five percent of people,
according to this one study, will be dumped in their lifetime,
will experience being a breakup in their lifetime. That means
fifteen percent of humanity won't. That is those are some
interesting people.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Eight fifteen percent have not had a breakup or been
broken up with.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Will not in their lifetime. They're just going to either
never have a relationship or the first time they're going
to hit it out of the park.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
But that doesn't mean like or subtle I've never been dumped.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, Like they'll never have gone through a breakup.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
But I've been through breakups. I've been the dumper.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Right, I know what you're saying. No, I believe that
they will not have experienced a breakup in their lifetime.
Either way, Well that's great.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
That means they sure, yeah, they met the person that
they love when they're young, probably again.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Or it means that they decided to of their life
alone just fine, right, or or both they like I said,
they decided like, yeah, I'm just gonna stick with this person. Yeah,
I don't want to I want to be what I
don't want to ruin my record, my spotless record.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I think it's very interesting here that supposedly, and this
is very hinky how they found this out about the
spikes and breakups from Like, that's.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
A Facebook data poll, so media doesn't count, social psychology
doesn't count.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I agree, But it doesn't make a little bit of sense.
And I could see this being true that generally dumping
someone or getting broken up with can happen on any
day of the year, but there are spikes in early
December and early March, yeah, because of Christmas holidays and
spring break.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah, And technically you could see that being true. There
has I'm sure it's true at least on Facebook. And yeah,
this is a pretty big data pull. But it's like,
that's so lazy.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
It's lazy. But I see it because it's it makes
a little bit of sense that you would not want
to go through the holidays with someone that And you
said a thing too, And this is important to point out,
like when the breakup happens, when that talk or these
days text message or phone call happens, it's not okay,
that is the end of something for maybe both of you,
(06:24):
but definitely one of you.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, sometimes most of the time.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
That that actual act of saying we're breaking up, that's
at the end of many, many weeks or even months
or even years of contemplation about whether or not you
want to still be with this person.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Right, And that's why being broken up with is almost
across the board, way harder sure than breaking up because
by the time, like you said, by the time the
person who initiates the breakup initiates the breakup is this
is at the end of a long road of decision making,
Whereas the other person might have been blissfully unaware or
(07:00):
at least wilfully ignorant or not willing to address the issues,
and so they are one way or another largely caught
off guard by being broken up with. So the person
who does the breaking up has already gone through all
these stages of grief of separation, Whereas now it's this person,
the person who's just been dumped, it's their time to
(07:21):
go through it.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right. So, if you're doing the dumping, like the hour
after you have that conversation, you're like, what a relief,
I'm I'm starting over. Let's go get some gin, Whereas
the dumpy is like, let's go get some gin. That begins,
that begins their process. Although the only thing I'll take
issue with that whole line of thought though, is that
a lot of people, even that might get dumped, aren't
(07:45):
like what like They may have known and just didn't
want to admit it or weren't brave enough or strong
enough to do it themselves.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, and I agree with you on that. I think
that there's still a thread that they had not been
preparing themselves just by being in SAE denial and willing
to address it face it. Now they have no choice
but to face reality, whereas the person who did the
breakup was like facing reality and coming to terms with
(08:15):
it quietly, sure, and then now it's your.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Turn, right, Which brings me back to my original point,
which is Christmas and spring break make a little bit
of sense because the person who was desperate to get
out of a relationship and break up with somebody, they're
staring at those Christmas holidays and that first week of
December rolls around, They're like, I gotta do this now
because I don't want to travel a lot of time
(08:39):
with this person and go through the whole gift thing, right,
and the holidays are just it's tough to be in
a relationship that's a lie.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Well, it's sure because the holidays, I mean, the holidays
are so about like connecting and feeling and warmth and
all that, and if you're faking it or have to
fake it, you know, some people are like, I'm not
going through that, no good. I also saw an explanation
in Harper's Bizarre of All Places that some people may
do that because of the pressure of coming up with
(09:06):
a really good gift, sure that the relationship is not
worth the pressure of coming up with a good gift
outweighs the value of the relationship to those people. Or
there are some people who don't want to put their
significant other through that, so they just break up proactively, right,
which also means that they didn't value the relationship that
(09:26):
much either, But at least in their mind, they're not
doing it for themselves. They're doing it for the other
person because they don't want to put the other person
through that pressure of having to get the perfect gift. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I've never had that thing either, where you start dating
someone and it's like a couple of weeks for their
birthday or Christmas, and you're and then that pressure of like,
oh man, how do I play this one?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
You know, a couple after a couple of weeks, Yeah,
oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
This person? But how deep do I go on this
gift here?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I don't really know you, So I got you a
basket of socks. Everyone loves socks.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So here's an Amazon gift card for thirty eight fifty.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right, Yeah, after a couple of weeks, it's a little
it's a little close. Yeah, I come up with a
perfect gift, or even be expected to.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And I did mention breaking up by text or whatever,
like you would suspect if you were born before nineteen
seventy five, like myself, you break up in person supposedly
about seventy four percent of the time. Not bad post
nineteen eighty four. If you were born less than fifty
percent of the time, you're going to do that in person.
(10:36):
And they say generation, Why whatever that is?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I think it's millennials, is it? I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
When did they name them?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Like?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Do they know what?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Like?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Does my daughter have a generation already? I don't know,
like a name.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I'm sure somebody out there is name your daughter's generation.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I annoying, don't box her in right?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, you got a pigeonhole folks, let her grow.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Up, be your own person. But if you are jen y,
you're or likely thirty percent to do it over the phone.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And of course this says a searing instant message or
an email. I think these days you would call that
a text.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And email is the lowest percent wise and compassion wise
four percent of people. That's the worst break up by email.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
What was this?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Pretty bad? Email? Is as bad as it gets?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Was it sex in the city where it was a
sticky note?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
No? I don't remember. I feel like the movie or
the show. I didn't see the movie Sticky Note Break,
I think.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So should we take a break?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, let's take a break? Man? All right, this is
going really really well so far. All right, Chuck. So
(12:07):
we've talked about when people break up, how they break up,
why do they break up?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Well, actually, there's one more, okay, I think pretty important
thing about the how, which is men and women. Women
tend to present and this sort of makes sense to
if you want to be stereotypically, you know, stereotypical about it.
Women tend to present a list of grievances.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Here's all the things wrong with you both.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Pretty much, whereas men it's a little more supposedly a
little more nebulous.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Where'd the magic go?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's apparently the difference is as far as like rationale
for breaking up.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And these are so macro level and broad and how
we talk about it. It's a little embarrassing to even do.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
To talk about this stuff. I know I wouldn't do this.
Women do this right. No, it's absolutely true. That's but
I feel like when you talk about this, people can
find themselves in the contours of of all if you
put all this stuff together, if you just took one
study and said that this is definitive, people should should
punch you in the kidney, agreed, but not really don't
(13:19):
punch anybody. You know, everyone. Over the last almost eleven
years of stuff, you should know, I've said a lot
of things that make it sound like I'm inciting people
to violence.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Friendly violence.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I was joking every single time why someone said something. No,
I just I just want to make sure that everyone
knows that I was never ever actually serious in saying
hit somebody in the head with a tag camera or
punch someone in the kidney. Actually, I'm kidding all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Except for when you recommend that you pants somebody, and.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I was kidding even then that's psychological abuse.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
It is.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
It's physical, but it's more psychological than anything.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You ever been pants in front of people?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yes? Really, yes, And I can tell you it's psychological.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I don't think I've ever been pantsed. Boy, I can't
imagine anything more horrifying than being pantsed. What's underwear on?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
What? I can confirm that because I can't remember being pantsed.
I just remember that I have been pants So I
think I just immediately blocked out everything.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, so no story, no story there. Okay, So if
you get broken up with, you will feel and we're
going to talk about the science of a lot of
this because it's very similar to overcoming addictions sometimes but
of course depression and anxiety, sometimes suicidal.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Thoughts, sometimes homicide. Oh sure, that's a that's an outcome,
a worst case outcome. That and suicide of breakups, but
they are directly related to break That's how bad breakups
can be.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, And apparently, you know when people do write in
about getting dumped and stuff, I always say, you know,
it's the most trite thing in the world. But like
time is the only thing that really helps. Yeah, like
ice cream and stuff like that is good, but like
it really does decrease over time. However, in studies, eight
(15:23):
weeks after being dumped in this study, forty percent of
people still had signs of clinical depression, and twelve percent
appeared moderately or severely depressed. So it depends on the
relationship along you're in it, how much it meant to you,
what kind of person you are. But it can stick
around for a bit.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
It can. So the thing is, though, there are things
you can do to help accelerate the healing process, and
we'll talk about those at the end. How about that. Okay,
we'll make y'all wait, all right, So where are we at, Chuck?
Are we at the well?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
The attachment styles I think is interesting because we did
talk about like gay, straight, cisgendered, you know, on the
gender spectrum. Maybe none of that matters. Maybe what matters
is what they call your attachment styles.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
That's what this says pretty plainly. Tho. Yeah, that's what
it comes down.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
To, how you attach yourselves to other people.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
You can be a needy, clingy dude. You can be
a avoidant woman, yeah, or you can be either one
of those things. Anywhere on the gender spectrum. That's the thing,
like the idea that women are clinging and men are
distant is fabled. Yeah, it's at least ham fisted.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, I think so. It's sort of that thing in
social science that bothers me, which is like, you're either
this or this, right, like one thing or the other.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And really all you are is a white college student.
That's what they really mean.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, who had a little time on their hands.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Right, you needed extra credit.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But there are two supposedly again two things attachment styles,
anxious attachment and avoidant well attachment.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Conger points out, like, that's two ends of a spectrum.
Oh okay, and you can fall somewhere on there. There's
actually a it's pretty straightforward. It's the OIS, I believe
or OSI. It's a scale where you pick how your
relationship is best described by a series of ven diagrams,
(17:24):
and one circles you, and one circle is your significant other,
and they're just increasingly together, from just barely touching to
almost completely merged into one single circle, and you just
circle the one that best describes your sense of what
your relationships like, and that supposedly gets your spectrum replacement
(17:45):
on the spectrum of attachment across. Oh interesting, So it's
real subjective and self reported, so that is to say,
not scientific, right.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Unfortunately, Supposedly two thirds of women initiate divorces, and in
this article it says that might give them a statistical
edge over getting over a relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Because they initiated the breakup, so they've been in the
process already. Maybe that's what I think she meant.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I think so, I'm just not so sure that just
because a woman initiates a divorce, it may have been
after years of systematic abuse, you know, which may not
mean like she's so ready to get over this quicker
than he might be.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Right, you know, Yeah, No, I mean you can't just
say it like if X, then Y. With this stuff,
it's relationship, sir as messy as as humans get. It's
a relationship. Yeah, that's all you need to say.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, let's talk about the brain a little bit, because
this is where it does get a little more interesting,
I think, slightly god slightly more scientific.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
There was a study in twenty eleven by neurologist at
the Einstein College of Medicine which sounded totally fake, totally,
but it's not.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I have sounds made up written down.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's in the bronx.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, there's also reputable. There were also anthropologists from Rutgers
in Sunni to legitimize things.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh in this study, if Rutgers is legitimizing things, sure,
we're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh really, is that? Is that? Really? I thought Rutgers
was all right? Or am I confusing of its toughs?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Uh? You're probably thinking Princeton, okay, both New Jersey schools.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I thought Rutgers was the public ivy. Okay, sorry, Rutgers.
I tried the check back.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Then they're gonna be so mad at me. I've hung
out at Rutgers.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I've been there people, so you know what you're talking about.
I know exactly what I'm Is it like the Detroit
of New Jersey colleges or something.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
That's not untrue?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Okay, all right, you don't disagree, boy, we're gonna.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Get killed, that's okay. So this study from Einstein College
of Medicine found that just looking at a photograph of
an ex partner caused the second somo somatosensory cortex and
the dorsal posterior insula. Nice geez, and these areas process
(20:13):
physical discomfort. They start lighting up. The same thing as
happens is when you get physically injured basically.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Right like you are in actual, legitimate pain as far
as your brain is concerned, in the midst of a breakup,
at least when you're stuck in an MRI machine and
showing a picture of your recent X.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Which is a big deal now with social media, because
every modern article I read about breakups and getting over
them talked about what a deletrious effect social media will
have on your recovery process.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Are you taunting me?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Because the stuff's everywhere now? It used to be easy.
You could just throw everything in a shoe box and
set it on fire and send it down a river
and a little boat made of rage. Sure, but you
can't do that anymore because they're everywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
No, but that's that's tip number one from psychologist Guy Wench,
author of How to Fix a Broken Heart. Stay the
h off of social media. Do not stalk your ex
on social do not check in, like just separate.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I imagine that would be really hard because in the
old days it was just left to your imagination to
think about how much fun they were having m with
You know, now you can see pictures of the nine
new boyfriends that she has, right, but yeah, you're right now,
or you know, maybe it helps.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I'm people, I don't know. I think it's imperative that
you not do that to help to help, Like, it's
not like watching them on social media will prevent you
from ever getting over it. I think no matter what
you do, you're going to eventually get past this. Sure,
but all you're doing is prolonging the process, and that
(21:58):
like unnecessarily.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah. And then also when you were on the fMRI
machine and they did brain scans from people who had
been broken up with recently, they found that very much
similar to people overcoming like an addiction to cocaine, and
that that same circuitry is of overcoming addiction is just
lighting up. It's that potent.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah. So so far with this MRI study from Albert
Einstein came up with is that you were in physical
pain from the breakup. Huh, And you're the same centers
that are activated by addiction. Cravings withdrawals are activated by
the breakup as well. That's astounding.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, And this weird mental cycle happens basically when you
do look at like a photograph of a what they
say a former lover.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
You're right, like the burger king laying rug pair skin rug.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
But you will, you'll see the photo. And the weird
thing is you'll immediately get a reward. You will get
a dopamine hit, like a pleasurable feeling by seeing this person.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And then you realize, oh wait, well then you.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Get sad all right immediately afterward, and then that sagnus sagnus,
Where did that come from?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
It is a little saggy feeling.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
That triggers the brain's ventral tegmental area and the nucleus
acumen bins acumen bins.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I think, so, I know we've run into that before.
We just talk about the brain a lot more human beins.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I think we figured out the brain though, right, so
we stopped.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, we were like done.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
But these two things working together, regardless of how I
mispronounced them, they trigger the urge to see that person.
So you get sad, and then your brain lights up
in two areas and then you go, hey, I remember
that dopamine hit you get from looking this picture. Why
don't you just give them a call and see what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Right? You want the real stuff? Go go get home.
They also those two areas apparently also are analytical as
well well. So they're responsible for rehashing the relationship, but
apparently they're not very realistic because most people, when rehashing
the relationship, highlight the good parts and forget about all
(24:14):
the bad parts.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I kind of have tended to do that, I think
everybody does.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I don't understand why. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I don't agree with that. Like Emily, and we of
course been married so long the subject never comes up anymore.
But I was always like, oh, with the old girlfriend,
what was so bad there? And then if I really
thought about it, I would remember where She's always like,
oh that was awful?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Oh really? Yeah, gotcha? Well she's smart.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah maybe so and I'm not dumb dumb so but okay.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
So even and you're not dumb dumb, even if like
you represent a third of people or a half of
people who do when rehashing, only think about the good
stuff and forget about all the negative stuff, like what
is that? Why does that even happen? It's bizarre if
you think about.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
The personality thing. What if I tend to be optimistic? Maybe?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Or yeah, yeah, I guess that's a pretty good explanation
to tell you the truth. What I was going to
say is if you look at relationships or romantic love
sure as an evolutionary drive to pair and mate sure
successfully over and over again, and to stay together, that
would bring you back to this person that you've already
(25:30):
connected with, rather than making you go look for another mate.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So maybe it's kind of like a backstop or fail
safe for breakups evolutionarily speaking.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Right, Like I was so close to having nine babies,
Like I really want to start all over again.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right right, Which is funny because that means that Emily's
more evolved than you in that sense.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, in every sense, that's awesome. But the end of
that mental cycle, basically, though, is those areas light up
that say go back and see that person. Then you
are immediately unsatisfied and about the fact that that's not happening.
That's when your pre frontal cortex trips into gear and
that's when you get angry. And it's just that mental
(26:12):
cycle that starts seeing that photo on a social media
platform and ending up upset ye in the end.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
But the same study led by Helen Fisher, found that
after over time, the same process is greatly degraded. Sure,
I think they did a follow up in well months,
Conger says, found that the whole process and all of
the neurochemicals and the brain regions are much less active,
(26:42):
which again, just time, give it.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Time, right. But if you don't give it time and
you do the thing where you do get back together,
that can be great, you know, it's sometimes you can
work it out and people can change.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But there's a big caveat there.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Well, right, go ahead, no no, no, no, you say yours okay,
because I think I'm talking about something else.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So what I saw was that if you get back together,
rather than saying like this is a fresh start, we're
going to try this over again, we're going to really
make a go of it. If you do that, all
you're going to do is just walk right back into
the same pitfalls and pratfalls, because the separation probably did
nothing or virtually nothing to your individual personalities, which are
(27:28):
the source of all of your conflicts. So it's not
like you just magically worked your conflicts out and you're
getting back together and everything's fine. That's just a charade.
But if you get back together and say I decided
I love you the way you are and I don't
want to be away from you, and I just accept
you for you, and I accept our relationship with all
(27:49):
of its problems. You're probably going to have a successful
reunion if you go into it like all of our
problems are solved because we broke up. You're just going
to do the same thing again down the line. Apparently
a fairly frequent thing that something like sixty percent or
some crazy percentage of younger the younger generation generation. Why,
(28:10):
I guess the process of breaking up the majority of
them that breakup involves getting back together multiple times, not
just once. Yeah, so you're getting back together and just
going through the same pattern. I think there's a field
of thought in psychology called scripts. These are scripts that
we're playing out one another's scripts, and if you don't
(28:31):
alter the script, you're going to go through the same
script over and over again. You're working out the same
things from your past or from your childhood against one another,
and you're not doing it the right way. So all
you're doing is creating conflict. And that doesn't just magically
go away because you spend a couple of months apart.
You have to just say i'd love you for who
you are, and we're going to just keep going.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, I think what I was going to say was,
don't they think though that that also depends on just
what kind of person you are in terms of thinking,
either people can really make substantial change in their lives
or they can't.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
That's how how you deal with a breakup, which we'll
talk about in a minute.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That sounds like a good place for a break I.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Think so too, all right.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Before we get to that what we were just talking
about before the split. This is one piece of data
from the same sex couple community. Supposedly from studies, they
do think that same sex couples are better at staying friends.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I saw that after a breakup, which.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Particularly lesbian couples. Yeah, and then gay men and then
straight couples are.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Like, forget about it so long. Yeah, it's an interesting thing.
Can you really be friends after? And it all depends
on how intense and how long and how kind of
a person you are. But yeah, it's interesting when I
meet people that legitimately are friends with people that they
seriously dated years later.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
It's pretty rare, I think. Actually I think it's too.
I think it seems less rare because you see it
on like TV shows, A lot, you know, and it's
also almost aspirational, like, oh, look at how like how
laid back and like with these people are that they
can be friends after this, you know. I think it's
pretty rare, actually, I think it's an idealized form, right,
(30:51):
because people like to you like to think that like
you're on good terms with everybody in your life.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think that's usually the person breaking up though. There
it's like I'd like to still be friends, right sure,
whereas the person getting broken up with this, like or
you could get hit by car, right, yeah, and that
would solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah. And then sticking with the whole same sex straight thing,
are we saying straight still?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I don't know. That doesn't feel right, does it.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
It doesn't, So let's just say same sex and hetero. Yeah, hetero.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
There's a clinical name for it.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Boy. So the time and marriage seemed to be the
two greatest indicators, at least as far as this one
study I saw went for the likelihood of staying together
over long periods of time. Right, all relationships, same sex
and hetero man woman, all of them are in at
(31:48):
the greatest risk of breakup within the first year or two.
And then it starts to drop precipitously. But I think
married hetero couples have a fairly low rate of a
low chance of breaking up over time. It's pretty much
flat the whole time, say, and then with same sex couples,
(32:10):
the same thing happens. The chance of breakup is pretty
high at the beginning, and then it starts to come down,
and then it's basically tracks with hetero couples. For marriage,
So marriage is kind of the factor. Time is the
second factor, but then time stops being a factor after
like thirty forty years. For unmarried couples, both hetero and
(32:30):
same sex, they start to break up after year like
thirty or forty, like, the chance of a breakup increases. Yeah,
but once you get married, once you get a ring
on it, over time, over like you know, decades is
what we're talking about. Your chance is almost nil of
breaking up, right, like less than I think of percent.
But that doesn't sound right because to like half of
(32:52):
all marriages into divorce. Yeah, this thing was way off,
But maybe that's when taking into account, maybe that's front
loaded by all the divorces that happened in the first
five years or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah, Okay, that would make a little bit more sense.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
They do find that your chances of getting over a
breakup or adjusting to that new post breakup life really
centers around regaining your sense of self. That when you
couple up with someone. It's not saying you can't have
a sense of self anymore, because it's very healthy too. Sure,
but there's an inevitable absorption and morphing that happens, and
(33:33):
a little bit of your sense of self goes away
when you couple.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, all the same friends, the same phone number, yeah,
and the same madre yes.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah. Boy. What about couples that share the email address?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah? You mean I have one? Really?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Sure, never had one, But you have your own too, well.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, we just have our own, but we have our
shared one too.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think I'm talking about the people that just have
the shared address. Sure, I've always found that interesting. Yeah,
I'm judging. I don't know anybody who just as a
shared address. I don't get why people would have the
same one. I guess I just always Emily sells a
MindSpring address.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Oh wow, is it Emily atmindspring dot com.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
No, And that is the truth, because I'm not saying
that just to keep people from emailing her. But she's
she had it for so long and I make fun
of her all the time, sure because she still pays
like twenty dollars a year for this what And she
was like, I've had it for so long that I
just can't give it up.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Well that's why people stay on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, Like, I'm not changing my email address.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
There's like so many of your memories there.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's like, well even that just her contact list and
every email, Like, I don't know, I just think it's funny.
I was like, where's that money going?
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Right? Who owns MindSpring? The air of the mind Spring fortune?
He can count on twenty bucks a month.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Back of cigarettes every month because of Emily yep oh
Man and then for recovery the whole stress related growth
thing that can happen with which is and I think
women tend to be more apt to do this than men.
But like, all right, you know what, I'm free now.
(35:08):
I'm gonna do all those things that I lost while
I was with him. I didn't have time for my
friends anymore. I lost connections with them.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I didn't do I didn't fly model airplanes or RCA
airplanes anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm gonna drop some weight. I'm gonna start eating healthier.
The post breakup weight loss is a huge, huge thing.
It is, and partially from stress, but partially just because
like I'm gonna make myself the best I can be
and I'll show her or him.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I think it's also like just as simple as like
more free time.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Sure, you know too, and something to do that is,
you know, exercises also stress relieving. You might not be
eating as much because your stomach is tied up into stress.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Nots right.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So there are a bunch of reasons for it.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
But here is that. Here's where that that part you
were talking about earlier I said we would get to
kind of kicks in. Is how much of the so
you identify with does relate to how well you handle
a breakup? How much of your how much of the
you is the we in the relationship? Yeah, And what
(36:10):
they found is that that's a huge part of it.
But more significant is the amount of growth that happens
while you're in a relationship, Like you can share a
tremendous amount of the same self with your significant other
and grow as a person as a result. And if
you do that, you're actually going to have a harder
(36:30):
breakup because that we that that super attachment that led
to that personal growth is related to that other person
who's now gone. Whereas if you were you even if
you were totally in messed with another person, but you
didn't grow much personally. If you experience a burst of
growth after the breakup, you're going to have the easiest
(36:52):
breakup of all. Even though you were super in messed
with the person, you weren't growing, But then you grow afterward.
Now that period of non growth is related to that
person who's gone, and you can be like, so long zero,
I'm gonna make myself a hero, yeah, DC, sure did
they come across? Yeah, because sometimes I'm not the best
(37:15):
at explaining things.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Which is pretty funny if you think about it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
In two thousand, they did a study at Northwestern University
where they did find out though that they ask people,
I believe, how bad do you think this breakup is
going to be? If you know you're in a relationship,
what if you broke up? And then they found out
that they weren't as bad off as they thought they
(37:43):
would be, which is encouraging.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
It is, but also think about this, Chuck, These vultures
who are running the study where like, you're in a relationship,
just we're going to study just in case you guys
break up. Yeah, And so they would get that info,
that self reporting info about how bad the breakup of be,
and then they swooped in upon the breakup. They're like,
how bad is it?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Tell us And the person was like, well, this is
as bad as it is, And it was almost across
the board. Yeah, not anywhere near as bad as the
people thought it would be when they were in the relationship. Yeah,
which is pretty surprising. And what was even more surprising
is the more in love you are, the easier it's
(38:24):
going to be relative to how bad do you think
it will be during the relationship, right, Which makes sense
if you stop and think about it.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah. I thought the other interesting thing too, when we
were talking about getting over a breakup and your sense
of self, that's closely tied to how you feel about rejection.
And there are a couple of I mean more than
a couple of ways. But if your reflection of your
(38:52):
how you think about rejection is tied heavily into how
you feel about yourself, so there's some people that might
be rejected and it might devastate them because they start
to analyze themselves and what did I do wrong? And
what's wrong with me? Right, there's a whole other camp
out there, And I think this goes into personality and
ego and all that stuff. But you call these people
(39:13):
healthy or sociopaths, maybe, Oh, it's probably on a range.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow, I just we just put both of our cards
on the table. Then.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
But the people that are like, yeah, I got broken
up with and I but and I got rejected. But
you know, as happens that happens in life, people get rejected.
It's not because of me, I just not everyone. You know,
So you find together, you.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Find this quote sociopathic. I learned that two people can
both be quality individuals, but that doesn't mean they belong together.
That's sociopathic to you.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
That's that was Oh wait, it says you said that
it was Ted.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Bundy, Patrick Bateman.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No, no, no, I don't think it necessarily necessarily means
you're a sociopath. But I think someone with that is
a true sociopath would probably be way more apt to
be like, oh yeah, well.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
It was them, not me.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, It's like it's fine, your point breakup.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
There's a sub a subgroup to that sociopath as you
call it camp, and they are like, well, breakups happen.
I heard what the other person said, and there's some
things I feel like I need to work on, Like say,
I was a terrible communicator, so I'm going to work
on becoming a better communicator as a result. It's called
stress related growth is what that's called. Where you're growing
(40:26):
out of this horrific experience. And that's healthy, that's super healthy.
But they the key is what's unhealthy is to say
this was all because of some fatal flaw that I have,
that's part of my personality that I'll never be able
to get rid of. And so all I'm going to
do is poison every relationship from here on out, and
(40:49):
I'm just going to build walls and keep everybody at
a distance. And that's what some people do as a
result of a breakup. And you can't do that. Even
if your brain starts to go that way. This research says,
stop it. Don't you have to disassociate yourself become the sociopath.
I guess if it need be to say this is
not because of an inherent flaw in me, that's uncorrectable,
(41:13):
even if the person was right, even if they're like,
you're a terrible communicator and you have serious mommy issues,
that doesn't mean that you will always be a terrible
communicator with serious mommy issues. You could work on those
post breakup and become a much better SOO to the
next person or whatever. The key is not being a
(41:36):
fatalist like there's nothing you can do to change. And
then also you should evaluate whether the person was saying
that in anger, how much faith you put in their
opinion of you. There's a lot of factors that you
need to take into account before you take on that
kind of thing that just puts you in the bottom
of a well where you could conceivably hang out for
(41:57):
the rest of your life if you're not careful without
copious amounts of therapy.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah agreed, or turning to drugs and alcohol, which is
a big, gin yeah, big thing that a lot of
people do.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Gin cuts both ways.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Should we talk about some of these tips from.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
This guy, the psychologist Guy Wench. Remember number one is
don't check up on them on social media.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Good luck with that.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Here's why. He says that this will reinforce your ex's
presence in your mind and will make it harder for
you to stop fantasizing about your broken relationship. You're basically
just like literally keeping them right there in front of
your face, right through social media. Yeah, which is why
it's a bad idea.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Number two, avoid creating mysteries about why the breakup happened.
And again, this is along those same lines of just
keeping your ex like forefront in your mind, which is hard.
I mean it's gonna take a little while. Sure, he says,
next day to pop up and just be like, well,
they're out of my mind.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
That's sociopathic.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, even if you're the breaker upper, you know, it
doesn't mean that you don't have a process to go
through as well.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Sure, you know, but that's why he says, avoid creating mysteries,
like it's it's probably going to happen, but like be
mindful when it's going on and be like enough, I'm
going to go work out, yeah, or go drink some
gin or both.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Number three, Make a list of all the comp Oh,
this is a good one. Make a list of all
the compromises that you had to make that you don't
want to make again. Start to think about like, yeah,
you know when I was with this person, I felt
like I could never really have my real sense of
humor out in public because they thought it was loud.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
That counters that that rehashing that just focuses on the positive. Yeah,
it cuts the legs out from under that set and legs.
What about Number four?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Do the things that used to bring you enjoyment? Is
kind of what I was talking about earlier, even if
they don't seem interesting now. That whole thing where like, Jeez,
I used to really love pottery right and throwing clay, sure,
and I just I quit doing it once I started
dating Josh.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, Clay throwing my house.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
H and Josh hated it when Chuck went to the
Potter's Wheel because it reminded him of Ghost And Josh
hated that movie, so he wouldn't allow me to do it.
But you know what, I'm going to reclaim that pottery wheel.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, which is ironic because I was always walking around
our house just like Patrick swayzey in that scene. But
I still hated that movie. Oh that was more like
the Chris Farley, Chippindale Patrick swayzee version.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Number five Remove reminders. This is the box that you
will burn, which is now just throw your laptop in
the fireplace, right in your smartphone.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
And then like reconnect with your friends, Like, yeah, you
left him in the dusty years ago, but they're still alive.
They probably wouldn't mind hearing from you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
The problem here is is if you truly do have
a mix of friends that you both love, not like
I didn't leave behind all my old friends. Or the
worst case scenario is like all of my friends are
from you. Now what do I do?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Go down to the YMCA and make some new friends?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I guess. So I found this one last study I
thought was interesting. The best way to get over a
breakup according to science, And this is actually published in
the Journal of Experimental Psychology, And they tested a bunch
of strategies for getting over a breakup twenty four heartbroken
people ages twenty to thirty seven that had been in
(45:34):
at least a two and a half year relationship, so
pretty significant. Some were dumpies, some were dumpers, and they
said there were three strategies. One is to negatively reappraise
your ex just think about all the bad things. The
other one was called love reappraisal, which is believe and
(45:55):
read statements like it's okay to love someone I'm no
longer with it's all right. And then the third was distraction,
literally the ice cream and look over here movies trick,
the black mirror trick. And then there was the fourth prompt,
which was the control, which was don't think about anything.
Of course means you're thinking of the stape of March Vela.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
You don't think about anything. Really, just undermine the science
of that clear brain.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
So those were the four prompts. Then they showed everyone,
They hooked everyone up to an EEG machine, showed them
photos of their exes, and they measured the intensity of
emotion in response to that photo, and then had them
use these different prompts to see which one works best.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
When they looked in the people who were not thinking
about anything, they were bleeding out of their eye sockets.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
They were and according to the readings, all three, all
three of the strategies significantly decreased their emotional response to
the photos really relative to the control. If you looked
at your ex in a negative light that first one,
like there was such a jerk. You had a decrease
(47:03):
in feelings of love, but you left in a worse
mood like that judged up bad feelings.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Like you wasted your time or something all that.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Maybe or just like just really took me off thinking
about all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Right? You know?
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So now did dumb study.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Drove some clay?
Speaker 2 (47:20):
That's right, distraction made feel made you feel better overall,
but didn't that have much of an effect on how
you really felt about them? Okay, you just didn't leave
it necessarily a bad mood. You just got ice cream
and watched a funny movie good enough, which is fine.
But they said that that doesn't do anything long term
to help you recover. Oh okay, just like a temporary whatever.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Does it prolong it? Though? Do you think? I mean,
you know as much as the people conducting it said.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
It's a form of avoidance that is shown to reduce
the recovery.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Okay, so it would prolong it. Then, I guess. So
everybody stop eating ice cream and watching Black Mirror.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
And then love Appraisal show no effect on your mood
or how you feel about them, but it did dull
the emotional response a little bit, So.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
There's really nothing to do.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Doesn't sound like it.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I saw a couple more tips. One is you could
write a letter that under no circumstances, will you ever send?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, that's a good trick actually reship price like anything
bothering her.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
It also really works well for grieving too. You just
write a letter, sure, and you say whatever you want
because you know for a fact that the other person
will never read it. You could say whatever you want
and it's just like a cathartic process that can help
hasten things. And then also, why do sad songs feel
so good when you're going through a breakup? Why do
(48:46):
people seek out sad songs? And the best explanation I saw,
the best theory is that a song is a little
capsule of emotion, and when you're seeking out a sad song,
you're confronting the very emotions that you're probably stifling right then,
and confronting it in such a raw form forces you
to express those emotions i e. Cry and that helps
(49:09):
you process them faster because you're you're not pushing them
off any longer. You're you're you're you're expressing them, you're
sorting through them. So that's what sad songs make you do.
That's why people seek out sad songs when they're down,
and it actually helps hasten recovery Lady in Red. I
don't think that's a sad standing with me.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
That's the saddest song.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
You're like, savely it takes me away?
Speaker 2 (49:36):
That uh sailing by Christopher Cross Lady in Red, and
then Dan Fogelberg's saying same old anxione right, three set
of songs.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Jerry knows that song. Those were two Christopher Cross songs.
He's got two of the three sets.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
No, Lady in Red's not Christopher Cross.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Now five dollars, Jerry, we're all nodding.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Now, five dollars is on the table.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
All right, I'll look it up.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Well, you guys will find out next episode whether I
was right or not.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
I remember the guy's name.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
It's Christopher Cross. Oh, Jerry's rarely doing one of her
rare speaking parts. She says, Christoph Waltz. That's the actor.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
You know. What's funny is I mistyped something and it
changed my search to Lady in Red wings like red
wing boots. Boot must be a fetish side, I guess.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
So. Yeah. If you want to get in touch with me,
Chuck or Jerry, you can shoot us an email to
Stuff Podcast how Stuff Works dot.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
Com Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
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