Rerun: The Sad Tale of Microsoft Zune

Microsoft jumped into the mp3 player space a little late. Apple had been producing iPods for five years when the first Zune hit shelves. But that was just the beginning of a series of problems Microsoft encountered. We explore the sad (and short) story of the Zune.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,
and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Javin Strickland.
I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and how the
tech are you see, y'all. I'm currently on vacation at
the moment. I should be somewhere in the Caribbean, and

(00:27):
that means that I'm not able to record a new
episode for you today, So I thought I would bring
an episode from last year, May twenty fourth, twenty twenty three,
to be exact. This episode is titled The Sad Tale
of Microsoft Zoon. I mentioned the Zoon in a recent
episode of tech Stuff, and it got me to thinking

(00:48):
back about this particular device. Hope you enjoy well. I
had got a story to tell. Once upon a time,
two companies like indignity, Apple and Microsoft were locked in

(01:12):
a battle for the home computer market. Apple had started
off with a few computer models named after the company itself,
you know, the Apple and the Apple two, and then
Apple two E and so on and so forth. Microsoft
when a different route. Microsoft gained rights to various pieces
of software. It developed some but it essentially bought or

(01:35):
from a certain point of view, maybe not stole, but
definitely hoodwinked some developers and ended up licensing out operating
system software and things like that. So two very different approaches.
So by the mid nineteen eighties, the struggle between Apple
and Microsoft had intensified. Apple introduced the Macintosh computer with

(01:58):
a graphical user interface or GUI GUY in other words,
Microsoft introduced Windows its own guy operating system, and while
Microsoft wasn't making the hardware, the term Windows PC became
shorthand it was almost as if Microsoft had been making
the PCs itself. It wasn't, It was just making the

(02:20):
operating system on top of the PC. But then the
operating system was in many ways more important than whomever
made the machine itself, because the operating system would determine
what kind of software you could run on the machine.
After all. Now, during the eighties and through the nineties,
Apple was on the ropes for a lot of different reasons,

(02:42):
which I've covered in other episodes of Tech Stuff. At
one point, Apple co founders See Jobs left the company,
with some versions of the story saying he was essentially fired.
Other versions say he was just strongly encouraged to leave.
Apple hit some really really rough one and at one
point it was in danger of going out of business.

(03:03):
Then Apple actually brought Steve Jobs back kind of to
act as a type of advisor. But it wasn't too
long before Jobs regained control of the company he had
co founded. That's also a very dramatic story. After that,
Apple made a series of moves that would really turn
things around for the company and set it on its

(03:24):
path to become a trillion dollar company. Now, the interesting
thing is, while Windows would retain a dominant hold on
the business and home computer operating system markets, Apple would
find new ways to become the company associated with entire technologies,
and Apple wasn't inventing these technologies. Instead, the company was

(03:48):
designing appealing products and then marketing the heck out of them.
And one product that really helped turn Apple around was
the iPod, Apple's digital music play so a standalone device
on which you would store and play music. Now, again,
Apple did not invent the MP three player. It was

(04:08):
not the first company to make one. They just made
one that looked really nice, it worked well, it had
some really cool features, and it it really benefited from
the power of Steve Jobs's presentation at various marketing events,
and Apple was able to forge some alliance with various
music labels over the next couple of years, and that

(04:30):
helped create new opportunities, including the launch of the iTunes
Store in two thousand and three. So iTunes had been
around before that, but iTunes first started out as software
you would have on your computer and you would use
iTunes to organize your music library, but you couldn't actually
buy music from iTunes at first. Instead, you would buy

(04:53):
a CD, a compact disc, put that in the optical
drive of your Mac computer, and you would rip music
from the CD and store it digitally within iTunes. That
would be your organization software essentially, and that's how you
would transfer music over to your iPod too. You would
physically connect your iPod to your Mac and then you

(05:14):
would port music over from your library on your Mac
computer to your iPod. Now, with two years of negotiation,
Steve Jobs was actually able to convince music labels to
offer up digital tracks for individual purchase within iTunes itself,
and that was the creation of the iTunes store, where
instead of using it as just your means of organizing

(05:36):
your music, it also became the way you could purchase
new music. That would really push Apple to new heights.
Microsoft was way behind on the MP three players space.
They did not jump into that market early on, and
Apple was able to essentially define that market. Microsoft eventually

(06:00):
recognized that there was money to be made in the
digital media player space, and the iPod had been out
for several years, like five years, and then Microsoft decided
they were going to try and create their own digital
music player. Maybe this one could have some really innovative
features that would set it apart. Designers could actually take

(06:23):
the opportunity to learn about what worked with the iPod
and what didn't work, or what people wish the iPod
could do. They could take that information and use that
to design a superior digital media player. They could have
done that. They didn't succeed in doing that. They tried
in some ways, but really it was a massive failure,

(06:45):
and it's a shame because Apple's incredible success put aside.
There were people who had notes, not musical notes, but
like critical notes for the iPod. For example, for folks
like myself, I did not own a mac computer. Now, initially,
if you want an iPod, it would only work with
Mac computers. You had to have a Macintosh in order

(07:09):
to synchronize with an iPod. It did not work with
Windows based machines. Later generations of the iPod and later
generations of iTunes would change that, but initially you just
couldn't do it. And if you did want to use
a Windows based machine with an iPod that was compatible,
you had to download iTunes. You had to install iTunes

(07:31):
onto your Windows machine, and the Windows version of iTunes stunk,
or at least in my opinion, it stunk. iTunes could
do some stuff that was legitimately useful. You know, it
could detect when new tracks were added to your library
and then transfer just those new tracks to your iPod

(07:53):
when you next connected your iPod to your computer, But
at least on PC's iTunes was very slow. It was clunky,
It took up a ton of space on your computer,
and it required a lot of your computer's assets to run,
so everything else slowed to a crawl. It seemed like
it was working great on Mac computers whenever I saw

(08:14):
people in interface with it, but my own experience was
totally different. I hated iTunes on Windows. I thought of
it as bloatwear or worse, and you couldn't interface with
the iPod using any other kind of digital media organizational software.
It had to be iTunes. So this meant that Microsoft

(08:37):
actually had an opportunity to perhaps design a player and
a software package that would work more smoothly for people
who were Windows owners rather than Mac owners. That was
a real opportunity for them. But even with a really
good product, Microsoft still would have faced a truly tough challenge.
Apple had really defined the MP three player landscape for

(08:59):
five years. At that point. They had introduced an iPod
capable of showing video. It had really great reviews. They had,
you know, models that could hold up to like eighty
gigs of material. It could be a storage product, so
you could actually store files on your iPod, not just

(09:21):
media files, but other types as well. There are a
lot of reasons why the iPod was seen as a
great product. I mean, heck, the iPod is why we
call podcasts podcasts like we call it podcasts because Apple
created this product that defined an entire generation of technology,
so that brand was really entrenched in the minds of consumers.

(09:44):
So even with a spectacular product, Microsoft was going to
face uphill battle. But it wasn't a spectacular product, so
the battle was even harder. The very first Microsoft Zoon
was originally just called the Zoon, but later on Microsoft
called it the Zoon thirty, and the thirty in this
case references the amount of storage available on the device.

(10:07):
It had a thirty gigabyte hard drive. A company called
Freescale made the processor that ran in the Zoom thirty.
It also made the processor for another digital player called
the Tashiba gigabeat S. In fact, the Zoon resembled the
Tashiba gigabeat S in many many ways, like it almost

(10:31):
was as if the Zoon was essentially a Gigabeit s
from Tashiba that had gone through a little bit of
a redesign that changed the dimensions of the player and
maybe some some aesthetics, but otherwise it looked like it
was very similar to the Gigabeats. And that's because that's
what it happened. Microsoft didn't really build the Zoon. Tashiba did.

(10:54):
Microsoft made some changes to the design, but they were
mostly cosmetic in nature. So Freescale used to be a
division within Motorola until two thousand and four, when Motorola
divested the division and it became Freescale. In twenty fifteen,
Freescale would become absorbed into a company called NXP Semiconductors.

(11:15):
So the Zoom came out in a brief span of
time where Freescale was its own company, and unfortunately, someone
made a booboo with the drivers for the Freescale processors
that went into both the Zoom thirty and the gigabeit s.
It was a booboo that wouldn't become noticeable for a
couple of years, which is foreshadowing. We'll talk about it

(11:39):
when we get there. Okay, before we go any further,
let's take a quick break. Okay, we're back. So when
the Zoon thirty launched initial you could get it in

(12:01):
one of three colors. There was like a pearl white,
there was black, and there was brown. I have no
idea what made Microsoft think that brown would be a
sought after color for an MP three player. I don't
know how they didn't anticipate that this was going to

(12:21):
create a whole bunch of jokes about the nature of
that MP three player. It's like they were setting themselves
up to be hazed. Surely someone at Microsoft at some
point said, guys, this might not be a good idea,
and yet they went with it. So the original Zooon
had a three inch screen and a four x three

(12:42):
aspect ratio, so taller than it was wide. This was
a much larger screen than what you could find on
the iPod at the time. That was really impressive, right,
Like it was a bigger device than the iPod. It
was definitely thicker too, like it was a chonky boy
as they might say, and it was going to be

(13:02):
a hefty piece of plastic that you were going to
hold in your pocket if you're going to walk around
with one of these things. But the screen was very large,
which was impressive. The UI was pretty nice too, at
least on a surface level. It did turn out that
the resolution of that larger screen was actually the exact

(13:23):
same resolution as the smaller iPod screen, which means that
images shown on the iPod would appear sharper than those
that you would see on the Zoon because you had
the exact same resolution, but the Zoon had a larger screen,
so same resolution, but an in large screen means that

(13:43):
the images on that screen are blurrier. It could play video,
but it was kind of immaterial because you couldn't just
use video from any source, and the Zoon marketplace didn't
have video on it, so you couldn't purchase video to
play on it. It could technically support it, but there
wasn't really any way to get video onto it, at
least initially. It ran a custom version of Microsoft's Portable

(14:07):
Media Center software. The user interface, the actual controls, well,
it had a circular dpad like it didn't look like
a dpad. It looked like a click wheel like if
you think of the old iPods, they had a mechanical
wheel where you would put your thumb on this wheel
and you would spin the wheel in order to navigate

(14:28):
through the menus. That's what this thing looked like. It had.
It looked like a very similar control mechanism, but no,
it was just a dpad in the form of a circle,
and then in the center of the circle was a
button that you could use to select stuff. So like
a dpad on a game controller, you would push up, down, left,
or right to navigate through menus and then use that

(14:49):
center button to make a selection. So kind of a
bummer because it looked like the control was meant to
be more tactile and touch based, and it's not. It
was just a dpad. The Zoom did have a couple
of neat features. However, it had Wi Fi capability. The
Zoon thirty had WiFi sort of, so you could use

(15:13):
the zoon's Wi Fi to connect with another Zoon that
was in the same local space that you were in,
like the same room or whatever, and then the two
Zoon owners could share songs and even photos between the
two different Zoon devices. So if you had a photo
on your device, which by the way, there's no camera

(15:34):
on the Zoon, so you had to have loaded this
photo on from your computer. Or maybe you have a
music track you really liked and you wanted to share
it with your buddy who also happens to have a Zoon.
You could use this method and send that music file
over to your buddy. But uh, if you wanted to
purchase a song and put it on your Zooon, you

(15:55):
couldn't do it wirelessly. You still had to do the
old tethered connection. You'd purchase the song through the zooon
marketplace on your computer. You would tether your Zoom to
the computer and then transfer the music that way. Now,
let's say you did somehow find the other person in
your town who also owned a Zoom, and the two

(16:15):
of you decided that you wanted to exchange a song.
You could do that if you were close enough to them,
you could send them a track, but they would have
just three days to access that track, and they can
play it a maximum of three times, and then it
would just delete itself off their device, so after three
days or after three plays, that song would disappear. They

(16:39):
called this feature, and I can't believe it to this
day that they did this. This is like the Brown
Zoom decision. They called this feature squirting, so you would
squirt a music track to another Zoom user. And I
know it sounds like I'm making a joke, I am not.
An actual company created a Brown MP three player that

(17:03):
could squirt music at other MP three players, and yes,
everybody made fun of this. For ages. You couldn't listen
to a tech podcast, you couldn't read an article without
some commentary on the topic of squirting. This was the
extent of the Zoom thirties Wi Fi capabilities. Was just

(17:26):
sending these files a short distance to another Zoon. That
was it. And like Apple, Microsoft went with a proprietary
cable when it came to connecting to the zooon to
charge it or to transfer files to it. The zoon
did have one other thing that I thought was pretty cool.
It had an FM radio built into it, and I

(17:47):
thought that was kind of neat. So like Microsoft was
trying to position this as it's a music device, not
just for digital files but also to access radio. But
Microsoft didn't really learn learn a whole lot about what
people disliked about the iPod because they made several of
the same choices. So one of the big drawbacks of

(18:08):
the original Zoon was that they would only work with
files that had a certain kind of DRM attached to them.
DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, and the whole purpose
of DRM is to prevent people from being able to
pirate stuff, to steal things, or to download stuff without permission.
But even DRM that Microsoft itself had designed before the

(18:32):
Zoon came out wouldn't work on the Zoon itself. It
wasn't backwards compatible with Microsoft's own DRM history, and that's
because Microsoft introduced a new kind of DRM around the
same time that they launched the Zoon, and the Zoon
would only be compatible with that version forward. And that

(18:53):
meant that if you happened to already have a bunch
of music tracks that had the earlier version of Microsoft's
d on them, they would not work with your Zoom.
So this was very discouraging. Right if you already had
a sizeable digital library and you were just excited about
getting a player where you could put the library on
the player, it would be very upsetting to find out, oh,

(19:14):
you can't because that has the wrong DRM on it.
Like in the history of technology, DRM I think has
long proven to be more of a frustration for legitimate
users than it has been a deterrent for piracy pirates
figure out ways around DRM, which means DRM ultimately just

(19:35):
becomes a frustrating experience for people who legitimately purchased the item.
So DRM is bad, is what I'm saying. Like it
doesn't do what it's supposed to do, and then it
does do stuff it's not supposed to do. That's the
definition of a bad product. Anyway. Microsoft also did something

(19:56):
supremely stupid in my opinion, that it had previously done
with its Xbox marketplace, which is, instead of having Zoom
users buy tracks with you know, real money, you first
had to go through this process of purchasing Microsoft points
and then using the Microsoft points to get tracks, so

(20:19):
you would redeem points for tracks. So there was this
middle step that was really frustrating. Part of this was
to obfuscate how expensive a track was, right because they
didn't have a dollar amount associated with it, just a
number of points, and you would have to do the
math in your head to figure out, okay, well, how
many points is equivalent to a dollar? Right? But you

(20:40):
never could buy them in increments of a dollar. It
would always be like five dollars or more. So that
also meant that if all you wanted to do was
buy one track, you actually had to spend five bucks
to do it, not a dollar, but five dollars just
to get the points, and then you would end up
with this bank of Microsoft points just sitting in your
account doing nothing. So this Microsoft was not the only

(21:02):
company to ever do this. I mean Disney did this
at their parks. They had something called Disney dollars, and
they were encouraging people to spend their real money to
buy theme park currency where you couldn't use that currency
anywhere else but inside those theme parks. Knowing that at
least some of your money was just going to be
wasted on this currency, you wouldn't be able to redeem

(21:25):
all of it, so you would actually spend more money
at the parks, but you wouldn't get value out of
all the money you spent because some of it would
just be caught up in this fake currency and you
don't have enough of it to do anything useful. Microsoft
points were the same way. Ultimately, Microsoft would back off
of the system on the Xbox marketplace, but they were

(21:45):
still going strong with it when the Zooon launched. Okay,
we're going to take another quick break. I've got some
more things to say about the Zoon before we wrap up.
All right, we're back. I'm not done slagging off on

(22:07):
the Zoon yet. Unlike the original iPod, the Zoon could
not be used as a storage device for other files. Right,
Like I had mentioned that that was one of the
things you could use an iPod for. You could store
files on it, you could use it like an external
hard drive. You could not do that with the Zoon.
It also didn't support lossless file formats like wave files

(22:29):
or wave files if you preferred WAV. Lossless means that
when you create that digital file, you haven't lost any
of the information contained within that file. So when you
convert music into a digital file, a lossless form factor
means everything that was in that recording is there. Loossy

(22:52):
means that the process of making that file will actually
eliminate some information. Ideally it's information that wouldn't affect your
experience listening to the audio file, but the quality typically
takes a hit, whereas lossless year getting the highest quality
possible based upon whatever recording procedure was used. So reviews

(23:14):
said that Zoon's playback quality was good despite the lack
of support for lossless audio, but it also said like
album art, despite being shown on a larger screen than
the iPod, didn't look very good. And again it's because
of those resolution issues. So Microsoft pushes out the first
Zoom in two thousand and six. That's unfortunate wording. I

(23:36):
probably should have said something else. Anyway, that year, two
thousand and six, Apple sold nearly thirty nine and a
half million iPods. Now that was impressive because up until
two thousand and six, collectively, across every single generation of iPod,
Apple had sold around forty million units, and in two

(23:58):
thousand and six they saw nearly as many just in
that one year. So, in other words, like in one year,
they doubled the number of iPods they had sold throughout
the history of the product, So Apple really was in
the dominant position for the digital media player space. So
how did the Zoom do well the first couple of weeks?

(24:19):
It did okay. Initially sales were slow, but CNN reported
at the end of the second week that had moved
into the number two spot for digital media players. That
does kind of ignore the fact that the number one
spot was light years ahead of it, Like it wasn't
even close, and being one and two doesn't mean so
much if number one is like fifty miles ahead of

(24:42):
you in a foot race. Microsoft, in a rush to
try and make up for five years of lost time,
had launched a bit of a flop. It was received
fairly well critically. The critics didn't hate it. They did
point out some of the downsides and the ways that
the Zoon failed to live up to the standard of

(25:04):
the iPod, as well as some of the things that
were really interesting that Microsoft had done. But there were
a lot of things to criticize. So Microsoft gets back
to work and gets to work on the second generation
of the Zoon. This generation would actually ditch that circular
dpad and instead use a touch sensitive little surface. It

(25:26):
was a quasi square and I say Quasi because it
had rounded corners. It didn't have actual angular corners, but
it was a surface where you could use touch commands
to navigate through the UI, so different from a dpad.
It also had some features that I think were pretty neat.
Like say that you were listening to your FM radio

(25:47):
on your Zoom and let's say a new song comes
on and you really dig it. You've never heard it before,
you really dig this song. You could actually flag the
song on your Zoom and then when you connected to
your Zoom to your computer or you could find that
song in the Zoom marketplace and then purchase it. It
made song discovery really interesting. I thought that legitimately was awesome.

(26:09):
You can also download some games to the device. The
user interface and the screen resolution were both improved with
the second generation, but this generation of the Zooon launched
in two thousand and seven. Two thousand and seven was
also the year that Apple launched a pair of devices
that ensured it would continue to dominate the mobile space.

(26:31):
The first was the iPhone, and ultimately the iPhone would
lead the way to the decline of standalone digital media
players in general, including Apple's own media players. The other
device was the iPod Touch, which was like an iPhone
without the phone part, And when you stack the iPhone,

(26:52):
or rather the iPod Touch against the second generation Zoon,
there was just no comparison, Like the iPod Touch was
like a sexy Lamborghini and the second generation Zoon was
like a decent car. And you have to remember Apple
still dominated the iTunes space, like almost all downloads of

(27:12):
purchase music were through iTunes, So Apple had just this
almost a monopoly like hold on the whole ecosystem of
digital music at this point. Now we're also chronologically getting
to the point where another problem with the original Zoon
cropped up. I had hinted at it before with the

(27:33):
foreshadowing comment, So you remember I said someone at Freescale
made a booboo when designing the driver for the processor
that was found both in the Zoom thirty and the
Tashiba Gigabeat. S well, that booboo failed to account for
the fact that two thousand and eight was a leap year.
So at midnight Pacific Standard time on December thirty first,

(27:56):
two thousand and eight, as the West coast of the
United States prepared to ring in the new year, Zoo
thirties stopped working. They froze. The gigabeat s devices out
there also froze. They were frozen or bricked, at least temporarily,
and it took a little bit for folks to figure
out what had happened. And it was again because of

(28:17):
the failure to account for a leap year. It saw
that there were three hundred and sixty six days in
the year, and it didn't know what to do, and
it got caught in a kind of loop that meant
that the device was frozen. Now, the fix was actually
pretty simple. All users had to do was keep their
frozen Zoom thirties and as well as you know, gigabeat

(28:39):
s's on and just let the battery drain completely. Once
the battery was completely drained, they would just hold off
on recharging their device until it was after like noon
on January first of two thousand and nine. Once that
that time had passed, they could charge it back up
and the device would reset and it would work again.

(29:02):
But this was another embarrassing misstep for the original Zoom.
Microsoft did take one more swing with the third generation
of the Zoo in two thousand and nine. This would
be the Zoon HD. It was an answer to Apple's
iPod Touch. So like the iPod Touch, it had a
display that was a touch display. It got rid of
all the little physical buttons and stuff for you to

(29:24):
navigate through. Everything was touch oriented. And the problem was
the Zoo HD came out in two thousand and nine.
The iPod Touch had come out in two thousand and seven,
so again Apple had had a couple of years had start,
plus there were some other things going on now. The
Zoo HD introduced some cool features like wireless synchronization as

(29:46):
well as wireless web access, so you could use it
as a wireless, you know, mobile device, but you could
do that with the iPod Touch as well. And at
this time, the writing was starting to show up on
the wall for the standalone media playing device, whether it
was a Zoom or an iPod or anything else, because

(30:08):
people were starting to use their smartphones to play media
instead of having a standalone device dedicated to it. Why
would you carry two devices around if one can do
the trick. So consumer opinions were starting to shift toward
accepting streaming as a music delivery service. So early on,

(30:31):
people were not really keen on the idea of streaming
They wanted to be able to own the tracks they
loved and not rely on a service to continue to
offer the tracks they loved in perpetuity, which you know
these days when you look at different streaming platforms, specifically
like streaming video platforms, you see cases where a platform

(30:52):
loses the rights to a particular type of media and
then you can't access it anymore on that platform. That's
a real problem, right. It's a problem that you avoid
if you purchase the media and you have it in
a format that you can still access no matter what
happens to the platform. That's different, and that's what people

(31:13):
really were worried about back in when they were buying
digital tracks rather than streaming. But eventually streaming went out
and it became a more acceptable delivery system. Apple was
still miles ahead at this point, so Microsoft decided to
call it quits in twenty eleven, having never made a
huge debt in the market. So the Zoon launched in

(31:35):
two thousand and six, Microsoft discontinued it five years later.
So Zoom launched five years too late and only lasted
five years. This would not be the only time Microsoft
would have to admit defeat in the hardware space. But
we'll talk about the Windows Phone debacle another day. Today,
the Zoon is remembered primarily as a joke. In fact,

(31:57):
it was used as a joke in the Guardians of
the Galaxy movie. The product itself wasn't necessarily bad. It
was just introduced far too late and without the features
needed to set it apart from the standard defining iPod.
But I think we can all agree the marketing around
it was truly terrible. And that is the down and

(32:20):
dirty story of the Zoom. If you had one, I'd
be curious to hear from you. You can always tweet
at me on Twitter. It's tech stuff, HSW I too
need to get another way for people to reach out,
because I can totally understand folks not wanting to go
to Twitter. But yeah, I'm curious for the zoon owners
out there at what they thought of the device. Did

(32:41):
they like it? What features did they really love? Were
there any things that really irritated them about the Zoon?
I mean, I'm speaking as someone My first MP three
player was not an iPod. I had a creative Zen
MP three player, and golly, I loved that thing. It
was not perfect by a long stretch. It had a

(33:03):
lot of issues, but it worked for what I needed
it to do, and I didn't have to use iTunes
to access it, so that was a big bonus. But
I'm curious what Zoom owners thought about their devices. And
it's a shame really that Microsoft wasn't able to compete
more in the space. And I say that because when
you have competition, it really pushes companies to try and

(33:28):
outperform each other. Apple was going hard anyway, they had
the lead spot, and they just kept going hard. They
probably didn't need to go as hard as they did,
but we ended up with really good devices as a
result of that. But you can't always count on that, right.
If a company dominates a market, they don't necessarily need

(33:48):
to try to maintain their market position, whereas when there's competition,
companies do have to try in order to win over customers.
So that's kind of why I'm always bombed when something fails.
It might have been a complete ridiculous show from beginning
to end because of silly decisions. But I don't want

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to see failures because I want to see competition so
that we get even better stuff on the other end
of it. That's it for this episode. I hope you
enjoyed it. I hope you are all well, and I'll
talk to you again really soon. Tech Stuff is an
iHeartRadio production. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

(34:38):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.