September 27, 2022 • 34 mins
Sustainable supply chains are good for the planet and good for business. In this episode of Smart Talks with IBM, Malcolm Gladwell takes on this topic with Tim Harford, host of Cautionary Tales, and guest Sheri Hinish, IBM’s Global Sustainability Services Leader and Offering Leader for Sustainable Supply Chain, known as the “supply-chain queen.” They discuss the supply-chain crisis and why transparent, responsible supply chains are imperative for our future.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to tex Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.
This season of Smart Talks with IBM is all about
new creators, the developers, data scientists, c t o s
and other visionaries creatively applying technology in business to drive change.
They use their knowledge and creativity to develop better ways
(00:26):
of working, no matter the industry. Join hosts from your
favorite Pushkin Industries podcasts as they use their expertise to
deepen these conversations, and of course Malcolm Gladwell will guide
you through the season as your host and provide his
thoughts and analysis along the way. Look out for new
episodes of Smart Talks with IBM on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,
(00:49):
and learn more at IBM dot com slash smart talks. Hello, Hello,
Welcome to Smart Talks with IBM, a podcast from Pushkin Industries,
HR Radio and IBM. I'm Malcolm Gabbo. This season, we're
talking to new creators, the developers, data scientists, c t
(01:11):
o s and other visionaries who are creatively applying technology
in business to drive change. Channeling their knowledge and expertise,
they're developing more creative and effective solutions, no matter the industry.
Our guest today is Sherry higinich at IBM. She's the
global leader for Sustainability Services and offering leader for sustainable
(01:33):
supply chain and circularity, but to her friends, she's better
known as the supply chain Queen. Sherry's job is to
help businesses design and build supply chains that are environmentally
sustainable and socially equitable. She's helped guide strategy for Fortune
five hundred companies and has won numerous top awards in
(01:56):
her industry. Sherry has worked with companies like Salesforce and
Ups to shape thought leadership around supply chain, and she's
also a major advocate for greater inclusion and diversity in
her field. On today's show, why sustainability and supply chains
is good for the planet and for profits, how technology
(02:17):
can ethically reshape the way consumers source their goods, and
what the supply chain crisis has revealed about the interdependence
of our societies. Sherry spoke with Tim Harford, host of
the Pushkin podcast Cautionary Tales, and longtime columnists at the
Financial Times, where he writes The Undercover Economist. In addition
(02:38):
to publishing several books and economics, he's also a BBC
Broadcaster with his show more or Less. Okay, let's get
to the interview. Sherry, thanks so much for joining me.
And I've been looking at your job titles. I've got.
I've got the official job title IBMS Global Sustainability Services
(03:02):
Leader and Offering Leader for Sustainable Supply Chain, and I've
got the unofficial job title, which is Supply Chain Queen,
which I have to say I like a lot better.
So what do you actually do well? The title that
I'm most proud of his mother? Let me just start
there um, And you know I I am very fortunate
to wake up every morning and do what I love,
(03:25):
which is answering a fundamental question. What responsibility do you
have to others and what impact are you making in
the world that we share. So in my current role,
I lead sustainability Services and Alliances globally for IBM Consulting.
Let's just make the connection for me between sustainability, which
(03:46):
I think I understand. It's like, you know, doing the
right thing, looking after the planet, looking after people, and
supply chains, which I also think I understand. That's the
thing that goes wrong when I don't get my kettlebells,
when that ship gets stuck in the sewers canal, and
everyone's complaining about them at the moment. But how how
are the two connected. So sustainability and supply chains are
(04:12):
interconnected in that you have a lot of companies making
commitments right now around decarbonization. Maybe you've heard of net
zero journeys or science based target commitments, and when you
double click that supply chains are actually the conduit to
realizing a lot of the scope three emission reduction initiatives
(04:34):
that companies are after right now. So it just just
explain scope three for me. So scope three emissions or
emissions that happen outside of your immediate control. So think
about upstream in sourcing and procarement. Think about when a
consumer actually uses your product. So, for example, a lot
(04:55):
of consumer goods, the impacts associated, especially the carbon impacts
and the water impacts often live after they leave the
retail establishment or your front doorstep by a car and
I and I fill it with gas then and I
drive it around. Then you know, even if the car
(05:16):
is made incredibly responsibly and the gasoline was was refined
in the most efficient possible way, you know, I'm still
bending gas right absolutely, And I think that this is
the real human emergency that's tucked under a lot of
the climate change conversation is how are you transforming the
lives of people, helping them make better decisions. A lot
(05:39):
of that happens in a supply chain. I think supply
chains have gotten a lot of attention, maybe for the
wrong reasons lately, because you you don't have your favorite
snack or your favorite thing at your fingertips on the shelves,
and certainly with with the pandemic, how we buy and
procure goods has changed quite a bit. But supply chains
(05:59):
that's where leak, it's real. That's where we we see
things around responsible sourcing and a lot of the social
inequities that can be addressed using a supply chain, fair
living wage, making sure that you have a diverse workforce.
So the cognitive diversity something that I evangelize it I
be in how are we really shifting the type of
(06:22):
people who are in the room building solutions to fundamentally
rethink the world right now? And this is going to
sound like an ignoble question because you've just expressed these
noble sentiments, But uh, sustainable supply chains good for business?
Of course they are so there's always this business case
(06:45):
for change, and I think there's a pragmatical lens. So
having come from industry and supply chain for over over
fifteen years, there's always the lean optimization and what that
means is things like operational efficiency, looking at materials differently,
is there more value left? Is there more value on
the table. So looking at lean and green projects and initiatives,
(07:09):
A lot of those things have been historically tucked under
supply chain. But when you say sustainable supply chain, to me,
it feels very different. It's different because a lot of
the optimization and efficiency gains, specifically in environmental stewardship, have
been consequential. They have not been intentional. Yeah, the fact
(07:30):
that people are thinking about supply chains now I think
for the wrong reasons as you as you mentioned because
stuff's gone wrong. Um, I'm sure that's frustrating as a
supply chain professional and a need to supply chain queen.
But but I mean, is that is that an opportunity
because because suddenly people notice that this is important, People
(07:54):
notice that the society relies on supply chains, the economy
relies on supply chains. Do you think that over the
next few years the supply chain sector will look back
at this moment and say, actually that there is some good. Absolutely.
I mean there's the reality that we will never return
to where we were before, and that supply chains really
(08:18):
power the world. They connect communities, they connect you know,
this super global, hyperlocal frame of mind, and that it
shows the relationship that businesses can't succeed in societies that
are failing. I think, um, there's a sense of renewed
resiliency as well when you you have business operations or
(08:41):
business as usual, but you you actually can't stop looking
towards the future. And that for me, at least when
when I will look back on this in ten years,
I know that supply chains are right at the forefront
of creating the type of adaptability to rethink a new world,
to use sustainability and purpose is really an anchor to
(09:03):
connect every person across the global network that each of
us participates in. To the pre COVID consumer, supply chains
were truly out of sight and out of mind. It
wasn't until baby formulas started disappearing from the shelves and
we had to sign up for a six month waiting
list just to buy a car that we realized how
much we had taken for Granted, Sherry mentioned earlier, much
(09:26):
of the environmental and efficiency gains and supply chain have
been consequential, not intentional. But now that disrupted supply chains
are more visible than ever, we're forced to ask ourselves
how can we improve them? How does technology govern the
modern supply chain? What can businesses and consumers do to
(09:46):
make supply chains more sustainable and operationally efficient than before?
Let's listen. I'd also like to talk about computers, because
I feel computerst I've got to be involved by. This
is an IBM conversation. You work for IBM, and what
if computers? What has data? What has digitization got to
do with supply chains? It's so it's so important because
(10:11):
digital and supply chain, especially from where I said, it
makes sustainability visible, actionable, and operational. So we can just
take some of the supply chain obstacles that have emerged
in the past two years throughout the pandemic. You know,
a lot of executives have had to scramble to frankly
(10:33):
rebalance their supply chain operations. So you think about demand volatility,
rebalancing workforces, reallocating production lines to other products, especially as
ppe was manufactured, um all of the policies and procedures
needed to communicate openly with customers and then also seeking
(10:56):
alternative modes of transportation, logistics and others. Sir, this is
data and digital is really at the heart of this.
If you don't have the right technology, you're not able
to make smarter, more informed decisions. And a lot of
this data, frankly, especially in supply chain organizations, it exists
(11:16):
outside your four walls. And the pandemic is a perfect
example of the sort of collaboration with technology that's essential
to not only save lives, but to make better business
and operational decisions. So I'm trying to picture this, So
I just imagine I'm a kettle bell. Um. I don't
know if this is a good example or not, but
imagine I'm a kettle bell. And I mean partly because
(11:39):
I got a couple down here and party, because kettle
bell seemed to be the quintessential thing that everyone was
trying to get hold of in in the spring of
and no one, no one could. So um, Okay, So
so there's a kettle bell. I'm a kettle bell. I've
just been made in a foundry, just out a hundred
miles out of shen Jen, and I'm going to have
(12:03):
to be driven on a truck into the port of Shenngen,
stuck on a boat across the Pacific, arrive at port
of Los Angeles, and then be put on a truck.
And I'm going to go to let's say, Las Vegas,
because there's somebody in Las Vegas who wants this kettle bell.
(12:23):
And you know, there's a problem because supply chains are
all messed up, and we're trying to make this whole
thing more sustainable, and we're trying to use digital technology
to just just talk me through how this process could
work better, how it could be more efficient, how it
could protect the planet more, how it could reduce volatility,
what what's going on that might make this kind of
(12:44):
thing work better. So the first question you ask is
why are you producing something across the ocean that's landing
in Las Vegas. And I think they're part of the
beauty of exponential technology right now, and modernization is that
we have more information to inform decisions and make better
(13:07):
decisions than what that means is in your kettle bell instance,
you think about the footprint of that kettle bell it's
a very long supply chain and there's a lot that
can happen. So shorter supply chains are typically happier, they
have less risk, they have a lower carbon footprint. They
also have more autonomy and agility, meaning there's a shorter
(13:30):
distance and there's less disruption that's probable in that shorter
supply chain. So you know, you you look at how
are you sourcing. What's that sourcing decision? Is it lowest price? Yeah? Probably,
but what's the total price? What's the total price of it?
And that includes a lot of the regulatory pressures around
(13:53):
lowered carbon emissions and carbon taxation, cross border adjustment tax,
so on and so forth. Also look at the supply network,
like are you creating our shortage of materials or goods
or inventory and other parts of your network as a
result of fulfilling that cattle bell order from China to
(14:15):
Las Vegas? Is there a better alternative? Is there a
decision that's smarter, that's you know, a local or domestic
decision where you can maybe with an incremental cost, have
a shorter distance to market to delivery, a lower footprint,
and you have more control over what happens and a
(14:35):
lot of those drivers of disruption like demands, supply logistics,
workforce sustainability. You eliminate that risk by design all the
way upstream in that very first decision point, where do
we source, where is it going? And what's the total
cost of ownership for that cattle bell? And if we
(14:58):
want these decisions to be made more responsibly, who ultimately
is making them and what are the what are the
challenges that we face, what are the obstacles to a
more sustainable strategy? Is it? Is it cost? Is it ignorance?
Just a question what's getting in the way. It's such
a big question, and it's a great question because I
(15:22):
now I know this is a little provocative, but I
think that consumers have more power than they than they know.
They are the demand signal in a supply chain. It
all starts with what you buy and why you buy it,
and what I often find gets in the way. And
(15:42):
you'll have a lot of folks who give you big,
fancy long answers pontificating. It ultimately comes down to choice.
It comes down to and again this is a bit
of a first world answer, but you have the ability
to choose with your pocket what type of world and
what type of brand you support. The thing that I
(16:04):
find most talentien is if you knew and if there
was a way that a company could convey that level
of transparency, not everything, not every single data point, but
just enough to give you context around your purchase, would
you make a different decision? And that is what sustainability
(16:25):
and supply chain is in my opinion, that level of
right level of transparency to help people make better, more informed,
responsible decisions. And that's also where the divide lies. There's
so much data. I think, Um, there's no lack of data. Frankly,
a lot of it is is living in disparate silos.
(16:49):
And part of the work that I support, um, how
can you be a great connector across all the different
touchpoints to not only connect this data aggregated just for
that first step of visibility, but then the sharing that's
needed of great use cases the QR code enabled product label,
(17:10):
so giving the consumer the ability to scan a code
and see an app relevant sustainability metrics that would enable
in theory, a better different decision where you could show
not necessarily what a carbon footprint is or metric tons
of carbon. Most consumers don't understand that, but in this example, Hey,
(17:34):
if you buy this product, you're saving forty trees from
being cut down. You're contributing towards this brand, responsibly sourcing
a product, and also evangelizing the information in a way
where you can be part of that journey. There are
tons of examples where customers want to be a part
(17:58):
of something much bigger than themselves. Employees as well. So
I think, you know, we've talked a lot about consumers
being the demand signal, and that's really where it starts.
But then I think that this is the power in
the momentum, the paradigm shift that we're seeing where sustainability
and supply chain absolutely matter. I love this idea that
(18:22):
as a consumer, I can just put out my phone
and scan the QR code and I can get I
can get as much of as little the data as
I want. I can get I can get the quick summary,
or if I'm a real nerd about something, and some
people are very passionate, they really want the details. I've
got a friend. Every time we go to a restaurant,
he's always asking about the supply of the fish. He's
super interested in sustainable fishing. It's just what's just what
(18:45):
he does you know, we've all got our interests, So
I love this idea that that these codes could just
empower us. It's you know, it's clear that that's a
possibility now that the risk of digging a little deeper
into more technical details. You mentioned this problem with data silos.
To me through exactly how that problem manifests itself and
what solutions are being explored. So historically, I think when
(19:14):
you talk about competitive advantage, people have been able to
operate in a black box, especially with supply chain data.
A lot of the data around sourcing, logistics, providers, manufacturers,
all of these things were leveraged together for competitive advantage
(19:34):
that they didn't want to share this this data the
strategy across their ecosystem. From what we've seen throughout the pandemic,
you are probably more profitable, more agile, and successful in
understanding where you absolutely have to share this data. Um
this is this is equally true for sustainability data. So
(19:57):
I think the paradigm shift is now in order two
decarbonize our world, create the type of meaningful change biodiversity, restoration,
ocean health, making sure that our forests are healthy. All
of this requires cooperation now at scale. So when you
(20:20):
talk about technology. I mentioned before that especially with digital
and modernization and supply chain, it makes it visible so
everyone can see a source of the truth. So specifically
at IBM, we talk a lot about something called an
intelligent workflow, and this is where you can use technology
(20:42):
like blockchain, like AI, like twinning, like quantum to bring
all of these stakeholders upstream and sourcing and procarement all
the way downstream to the consumer. Even so, take that
QR code that you scant at the shelf. Consumer can
look in their at their phone and see the journey
(21:03):
of that product. They can credibly see where it was sourced.
There's even the the functionality to thank their farmer. So
maybe you're scanning a bag of coffee beans where you
can thank your farmer in act identify the source community.
When have we ever been able in a source to
(21:24):
pay intelligent workflow connect the first kilometer of a supply
chain with the last smile all the way to the
retail shelf. So I think that these are the types
of possibilities and opportunities that are enabled with technology, creativity,
(21:46):
cognitive diversity, and fundamentally rethinking the way that we've done
things right now. Nine of materials in the world actually
our circular which means ninety one percent of the goods
that we use that we consume end up in a
(22:07):
landfill or are wasted in some way, shape or form,
and that is absolutely unsustainable. We are on a path
when we look at our landfills and we look at
just the management of waste and oceans and waterways. We
cannot continue to take make and waste or throw away
(22:29):
goods that we produces. As a species. We're becoming more
and more aware of the societal ripple effects that result
from our consumption. Much of Sherry's job is to think
about how we will live and consume in the future
and how we can affect change today. There's a human
element to her work. Timm as Sherry how she collaborates
(22:51):
with the many humans who are embedded in our supply
chains to get them on board but changing the status
quo and what part creativity plays in her work. This
the whole season of the Smart Talks podcast. It's focused
on creativity and business. Are you a creative person? Of course?
(23:12):
You know what's interesting about my career path. I actually
I started as as an entertainer, as a singer. A
lot of people don't know that. So I was a
musician songwriter for many years. Um, but yeah, I I
there's something about creativity. Um, it's like the human soul
(23:34):
on fire. And when we think about you know, everything
that we're living through right now, we need people who
can be creative and think from different perspectives to redesign
this world and to redesign business and really steer us
(23:54):
into a new future. Now now, now, now, you might
not agree with me, but supply chain and music are
absolutely connected and they're very similar. And I'll show you why.
In supply chain, you always start with customer centricity or
voice of the customer. How are you meeting their their needs,
(24:19):
their wants, how are you fulfilling the demand. It's no
different than being on stage and singing or writing a song.
Think about listening, tempo, cadence and pulse, emoting tone, all
of those things that orchestration. It's just like music. It's
just like supply chain. I love it. So, I mean
(24:43):
you you've conveyed this idea of the creativity and of
the listening and of the tempo. Can you give me
a specific example of of a time that you've you've
helped a client who's come to you and said, look,
I've got to make the supply chain more sustainable, or
maybe the client didn't realize that they had to make
supply chain more sustainable and you convinced them of it,
(25:03):
but just just talk me through a particular client project
or client relationship. So, yeah, looking at a transparent supply
chain in this example, UM, this organization, oh, is a
bit immature in the space, so looking at how you
UM encourage healthy snacking. And they wanted to use data differently.
(25:32):
A lot of the data that they had was very
much disconnected from the way work gets done. But then
they also wanted to bring the customer along with them,
which was a scary proposition because I think one thing
that came out of that engagement is they weren't as
mature as some of their competitors. And they said, if
(25:54):
we voluntarily disclose some of the risks that we know,
we want to dress but we have to start somewhere
taking that first honest step, will it harm our brand?
And it was a really interesting way of looking at
it because as a consumer who actually buys their products,
(26:15):
I thought, Wow, they're starting from a place of wanting
to be honest and wanting to lean in, and we
have to acknowledge that a lot of brands are on
this journey and we are going to see things that
we cannot unsee. Um and very much so. The other
(26:38):
thing was not knowing how to get started. And in
order to give people that level of transparency in this
customer example, they needed the nitty gritty, and the nitty
gritty was very ditty, and it was a lot of
assumptions cobbled together, and I actually had to convince them
(27:00):
that it was a great starting point and and almost
take them from feeling very vulnerable to feeling very confident.
And again, um, I saw services in technology and and
it was it was a great learning moment, frankly, because
technology doesn't necessarily solve that. Um it's very much you know,
(27:20):
connecting that human experience. And that is where specifically, in
this example, the client had a vision for a transparent
supply chain, but didn't know how to piece together a
lot of great ideas where they could actually fund their
transformation over a five year period. Was a billion dollar
(27:42):
business case, a lot of really cool ideas tucked under it,
but it was what's the sequence of steps and why
how do we prioritize resources, funding transforming work. So a
lot of the work was automated, you know, thinking about
the future of work and automation, how do you repurpose
this analysts time for example two more value add time.
(28:06):
So all of that to say it was a It
was a great learning experience, um for me and also
for the brand that I serve, and that we both
got to learn together and do something that really changed
everything for them. It sounds studies work really masses to it?
Does it does? It's why I get up every morning.
(28:29):
I had this moment where it clicked, and it was
about seven years ago. I have three kids, So my
oldest just turned thirteen, and my my oldest shame my
daughter Aris eight and my youngest is seven. And it
was when he was born, UM that I just sat
(28:50):
back and thought, you know, with the climate emergency, Um,
it was it was right around what am I doing? Like,
what am I doing to change this? And you start
to think about, you know, when they're eighteen and God
knows what the world will look like, then what did
you do? What was your response? And being in supply
(29:14):
chain and at the time starting to dabble in sustainability,
I saw those interconnections, and I saw a way marrying
supply chain sustainability and technology to really make a difference
and transforms people's people's lives, and it's good for business
and good for the planet. And I think it was
all of that coming together and clicking for me where
(29:37):
I just said, this is what I'm gonna do. And
it's just been an incredible feeling and nothing can replicate this.
My kids are proud of me. UM. I love my team.
I would choose them even if I wasn't here, I
would find them in the universe. I always tell them
so that that's really what it's about for me, is
is making a better a better world for others, for
(29:59):
my kids, for their kids, um, And that's what matters most.
Just tell me, look twenty years into the future, and
we know the climate isn't going to get any better.
We know we've got a real problem there and it's
for the foreseeable future that will get worse even if
(30:20):
we were able to put some real solutions in place,
but supply chains themselves in twenty years time, what would
you hope sustainable supply chains might look like. I definitely
want community resilience and hyperlocalism to be a driving force
(30:44):
for supply chain transformation, meaning that so a big brand
like do you have community permission to open your doors there?
How do you preserve that community? How do you ensure
that basic needs are being met? That is so critical
and important. I mentioned before that businesses can't succeed in
(31:05):
societies that are failing, and I think that that tie
between profit with purpose and societal impact it's coming to
the forefront now. When I think about a supply chain
in twenty years, you think about community resilience. You think
about you know, how am I enabling others who have
been marginalized or traditionally left behind to have access to healthcare,
(31:29):
to have access to education and upskilling. I think all
of these things, that's what I would want most And
in terms of like how work actually gets done and
how we transform our thinking, it's that we have shorter
supply chains and that we we think about the impacts holistically.
(31:50):
The total cost of ownership for a brand, for a phone,
for a mouse, for a can of sparkling water, what's
the total costs of this really isn't necessarily price, you know,
there are other things that go into that, and I
think that if we really understood the impact that we
(32:11):
have on the world, how we contribute to climate variation
and climate change. I I want to believe and hope
that we would make different decisions. Sher, it's been such
pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tim,
it's been a pleasure. When we think of supply chains,
(32:32):
we typically picture cargo ships or far away factory belts,
maybe a map of the world with a string of
connected dots running from Shenzen to Las Vegas. But what
Sherry does so well is highlight the impact these often
invisible systems have on our daily lives. We all want
supply chains that are ethical, environmentally responsible, and integrated with
(32:55):
local communities. It's good for business, good for the planet,
and good for the consumer. The pandemic gave us a
chance to begin the paradigm shift in supply chain thinking
that Cherry talked about. Now there's an opportunity to put
these ideas into action in our day to day choices,
in our businesses and in our communities. The next time
(33:17):
we're at a grocery store and can't find our favorite snack,
let's take a moment to remember that. On the next
episode of Smart Talks with IBM how AI powered technology
can help us combat the human biases that result in
discriminatory hiring practices. We talked with Angela Hood, founder and
(33:38):
CEO of This Way Global. Smart Talks with IBM is
produced by Matt Romano, David jaw, Royston Deserve, and Edith
Rousselo with Jacob Goldstein. We're edited by Sophie Crane. Our
engineers are Jason Gambrel, Sarah Brugare and Ben Holliday. Theme
(33:58):
song by Grandmasco. Special thanks to Carlly Magliore, Andy Kelly,
Kathy Callaghan and the eight Bar and IBM teams, as
well as the Pushkin marketing team. Smart Talks with IBM
is a production of Pushkin Industries and i Heart Media.
To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the i Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
(34:23):
I'm Malcolm Glaboell. This is a paid advertisement from IBM.
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in business to drive change. Channeling their knowledge and expertise,
they're developing more creative and effective solutions, no matter the industry.
Our guest today is Sherry higinich at IBM. She's the
global leader for Sustainability Services and offering leader for sustainable
(01:33):
supply chain and circularity, but to her friends, she's better
known as the supply chain Queen. Sherry's job is to
help businesses design and build supply chains that are environmentally
sustainable and socially equitable. She's helped guide strategy for Fortune
five hundred companies and has won numerous top awards in
(01:56):
her industry. Sherry has worked with companies like Salesforce and
Ups to shape thought leadership around supply chain, and she's
also a major advocate for greater inclusion and diversity in
her field. On today's show, why sustainability and supply chains
is good for the planet and for profits, how technology
(02:17):
can ethically reshape the way consumers source their goods, and
what the supply chain crisis has revealed about the interdependence
of our societies. Sherry spoke with Tim Harford, host of
the Pushkin podcast Cautionary Tales, and longtime columnists at the
Financial Times, where he writes The Undercover Economist. In addition
(02:38):
to publishing several books and economics, he's also a BBC
Broadcaster with his show more or Less. Okay, let's get
to the interview. Sherry, thanks so much for joining me.
And I've been looking at your job titles. I've got.
I've got the official job title IBMS Global Sustainability Services
(03:02):
Leader and Offering Leader for Sustainable Supply Chain, and I've
got the unofficial job title, which is Supply Chain Queen,
which I have to say I like a lot better.
So what do you actually do well? The title that
I'm most proud of his mother? Let me just start
there um, And you know I I am very fortunate
to wake up every morning and do what I love,
(03:25):
which is answering a fundamental question. What responsibility do you
have to others and what impact are you making in
the world that we share. So in my current role,
I lead sustainability Services and Alliances globally for IBM Consulting.
Let's just make the connection for me between sustainability, which
(03:46):
I think I understand. It's like, you know, doing the
right thing, looking after the planet, looking after people, and
supply chains, which I also think I understand. That's the
thing that goes wrong when I don't get my kettlebells,
when that ship gets stuck in the sewers canal, and
everyone's complaining about them at the moment. But how how
are the two connected. So sustainability and supply chains are
(04:12):
interconnected in that you have a lot of companies making
commitments right now around decarbonization. Maybe you've heard of net
zero journeys or science based target commitments, and when you
double click that supply chains are actually the conduit to
realizing a lot of the scope three emission reduction initiatives
(04:34):
that companies are after right now. So it just just
explain scope three for me. So scope three emissions or
emissions that happen outside of your immediate control. So think
about upstream in sourcing and procarement. Think about when a
consumer actually uses your product. So, for example, a lot
(04:55):
of consumer goods, the impacts associated, especially the carbon impacts
and the water impacts often live after they leave the
retail establishment or your front doorstep by a car and
I and I fill it with gas then and I
drive it around. Then you know, even if the car
(05:16):
is made incredibly responsibly and the gasoline was was refined
in the most efficient possible way, you know, I'm still
bending gas right absolutely, And I think that this is
the real human emergency that's tucked under a lot of
the climate change conversation is how are you transforming the
lives of people, helping them make better decisions. A lot
(05:39):
of that happens in a supply chain. I think supply
chains have gotten a lot of attention, maybe for the
wrong reasons lately, because you you don't have your favorite
snack or your favorite thing at your fingertips on the shelves,
and certainly with with the pandemic, how we buy and
procure goods has changed quite a bit. But supply chains
(05:59):
that's where leak, it's real. That's where we we see
things around responsible sourcing and a lot of the social
inequities that can be addressed using a supply chain, fair
living wage, making sure that you have a diverse workforce.
So the cognitive diversity something that I evangelize it I
be in how are we really shifting the type of
(06:22):
people who are in the room building solutions to fundamentally
rethink the world right now? And this is going to
sound like an ignoble question because you've just expressed these
noble sentiments, But uh, sustainable supply chains good for business?
Of course they are so there's always this business case
(06:45):
for change, and I think there's a pragmatical lens. So
having come from industry and supply chain for over over
fifteen years, there's always the lean optimization and what that
means is things like operational efficiency, looking at materials differently,
is there more value left? Is there more value on
the table. So looking at lean and green projects and initiatives,
(07:09):
A lot of those things have been historically tucked under
supply chain. But when you say sustainable supply chain, to me,
it feels very different. It's different because a lot of
the optimization and efficiency gains, specifically in environmental stewardship, have
been consequential. They have not been intentional. Yeah, the fact
(07:30):
that people are thinking about supply chains now I think
for the wrong reasons as you as you mentioned because
stuff's gone wrong. Um, I'm sure that's frustrating as a
supply chain professional and a need to supply chain queen.
But but I mean, is that is that an opportunity
because because suddenly people notice that this is important, People
(07:54):
notice that the society relies on supply chains, the economy
relies on supply chains. Do you think that over the
next few years the supply chain sector will look back
at this moment and say, actually that there is some good. Absolutely.
I mean there's the reality that we will never return
to where we were before, and that supply chains really
(08:18):
power the world. They connect communities, they connect you know,
this super global, hyperlocal frame of mind, and that it
shows the relationship that businesses can't succeed in societies that
are failing. I think, um, there's a sense of renewed
resiliency as well when you you have business operations or
(08:41):
business as usual, but you you actually can't stop looking
towards the future. And that for me, at least when
when I will look back on this in ten years,
I know that supply chains are right at the forefront
of creating the type of adaptability to rethink a new world,
to use sustainability and purpose is really an anchor to
(09:03):
connect every person across the global network that each of
us participates in. To the pre COVID consumer, supply chains
were truly out of sight and out of mind. It
wasn't until baby formulas started disappearing from the shelves and
we had to sign up for a six month waiting
list just to buy a car that we realized how
much we had taken for Granted, Sherry mentioned earlier, much
(09:26):
of the environmental and efficiency gains and supply chain have
been consequential, not intentional. But now that disrupted supply chains
are more visible than ever, we're forced to ask ourselves
how can we improve them? How does technology govern the
modern supply chain? What can businesses and consumers do to
(09:46):
make supply chains more sustainable and operationally efficient than before?
Let's listen. I'd also like to talk about computers, because
I feel computerst I've got to be involved by. This
is an IBM conversation. You work for IBM, and what
if computers? What has data? What has digitization got to
do with supply chains? It's so it's so important because
(10:11):
digital and supply chain, especially from where I said, it
makes sustainability visible, actionable, and operational. So we can just
take some of the supply chain obstacles that have emerged
in the past two years throughout the pandemic. You know,
a lot of executives have had to scramble to frankly
(10:33):
rebalance their supply chain operations. So you think about demand volatility,
rebalancing workforces, reallocating production lines to other products, especially as
ppe was manufactured, um all of the policies and procedures
needed to communicate openly with customers and then also seeking
(10:56):
alternative modes of transportation, logistics and others. Sir, this is
data and digital is really at the heart of this.
If you don't have the right technology, you're not able
to make smarter, more informed decisions. And a lot of
this data, frankly, especially in supply chain organizations, it exists
(11:16):
outside your four walls. And the pandemic is a perfect
example of the sort of collaboration with technology that's essential
to not only save lives, but to make better business
and operational decisions. So I'm trying to picture this, So
I just imagine I'm a kettle bell. Um. I don't
know if this is a good example or not, but
imagine I'm a kettle bell. And I mean partly because
(11:39):
I got a couple down here and party, because kettle
bell seemed to be the quintessential thing that everyone was
trying to get hold of in in the spring of
and no one, no one could. So um, Okay, So
so there's a kettle bell. I'm a kettle bell. I've
just been made in a foundry, just out a hundred
miles out of shen Jen, and I'm going to have
(12:03):
to be driven on a truck into the port of Shenngen,
stuck on a boat across the Pacific, arrive at port
of Los Angeles, and then be put on a truck.
And I'm going to go to let's say, Las Vegas,
because there's somebody in Las Vegas who wants this kettle bell.
(12:23):
And you know, there's a problem because supply chains are
all messed up, and we're trying to make this whole
thing more sustainable, and we're trying to use digital technology
to just just talk me through how this process could
work better, how it could be more efficient, how it
could protect the planet more, how it could reduce volatility,
what what's going on that might make this kind of
(12:44):
thing work better. So the first question you ask is
why are you producing something across the ocean that's landing
in Las Vegas. And I think they're part of the
beauty of exponential technology right now, and modernization is that
we have more information to inform decisions and make better
(13:07):
decisions than what that means is in your kettle bell instance,
you think about the footprint of that kettle bell it's
a very long supply chain and there's a lot that
can happen. So shorter supply chains are typically happier, they
have less risk, they have a lower carbon footprint. They
also have more autonomy and agility, meaning there's a shorter
(13:30):
distance and there's less disruption that's probable in that shorter
supply chain. So you know, you you look at how
are you sourcing. What's that sourcing decision? Is it lowest price? Yeah? Probably,
but what's the total price? What's the total price of it?
And that includes a lot of the regulatory pressures around
(13:53):
lowered carbon emissions and carbon taxation, cross border adjustment tax,
so on and so forth. Also look at the supply network,
like are you creating our shortage of materials or goods
or inventory and other parts of your network as a
result of fulfilling that cattle bell order from China to
(14:15):
Las Vegas? Is there a better alternative? Is there a
decision that's smarter, that's you know, a local or domestic
decision where you can maybe with an incremental cost, have
a shorter distance to market to delivery, a lower footprint,
and you have more control over what happens and a
(14:35):
lot of those drivers of disruption like demands, supply logistics,
workforce sustainability. You eliminate that risk by design all the
way upstream in that very first decision point, where do
we source, where is it going? And what's the total
cost of ownership for that cattle bell? And if we
(14:58):
want these decisions to be made more responsibly, who ultimately
is making them and what are the what are the
challenges that we face, what are the obstacles to a
more sustainable strategy? Is it? Is it cost? Is it ignorance?
Just a question what's getting in the way. It's such
a big question, and it's a great question because I
(15:22):
now I know this is a little provocative, but I
think that consumers have more power than they than they know.
They are the demand signal in a supply chain. It
all starts with what you buy and why you buy it,
and what I often find gets in the way. And
(15:42):
you'll have a lot of folks who give you big,
fancy long answers pontificating. It ultimately comes down to choice.
It comes down to and again this is a bit
of a first world answer, but you have the ability
to choose with your pocket what type of world and
what type of brand you support. The thing that I
(16:04):
find most talentien is if you knew and if there
was a way that a company could convey that level
of transparency, not everything, not every single data point, but
just enough to give you context around your purchase, would
you make a different decision? And that is what sustainability
(16:25):
and supply chain is in my opinion, that level of
right level of transparency to help people make better, more informed,
responsible decisions. And that's also where the divide lies. There's
so much data. I think, Um, there's no lack of data. Frankly,
a lot of it is is living in disparate silos.
(16:49):
And part of the work that I support, um, how
can you be a great connector across all the different
touchpoints to not only connect this data aggregated just for
that first step of visibility, but then the sharing that's
needed of great use cases the QR code enabled product label,
(17:10):
so giving the consumer the ability to scan a code
and see an app relevant sustainability metrics that would enable
in theory, a better different decision where you could show
not necessarily what a carbon footprint is or metric tons
of carbon. Most consumers don't understand that, but in this example, Hey,
(17:34):
if you buy this product, you're saving forty trees from
being cut down. You're contributing towards this brand, responsibly sourcing
a product, and also evangelizing the information in a way
where you can be part of that journey. There are
tons of examples where customers want to be a part
(17:58):
of something much bigger than themselves. Employees as well. So
I think, you know, we've talked a lot about consumers
being the demand signal, and that's really where it starts.
But then I think that this is the power in
the momentum, the paradigm shift that we're seeing where sustainability
and supply chain absolutely matter. I love this idea that
(18:22):
as a consumer, I can just put out my phone
and scan the QR code and I can get I
can get as much of as little the data as
I want. I can get I can get the quick summary,
or if I'm a real nerd about something, and some
people are very passionate, they really want the details. I've
got a friend. Every time we go to a restaurant,
he's always asking about the supply of the fish. He's
super interested in sustainable fishing. It's just what's just what
(18:45):
he does you know, we've all got our interests, So
I love this idea that that these codes could just
empower us. It's you know, it's clear that that's a
possibility now that the risk of digging a little deeper
into more technical details. You mentioned this problem with data silos.
To me through exactly how that problem manifests itself and
what solutions are being explored. So historically, I think when
(19:14):
you talk about competitive advantage, people have been able to
operate in a black box, especially with supply chain data.
A lot of the data around sourcing, logistics, providers, manufacturers,
all of these things were leveraged together for competitive advantage
(19:34):
that they didn't want to share this this data the
strategy across their ecosystem. From what we've seen throughout the pandemic,
you are probably more profitable, more agile, and successful in
understanding where you absolutely have to share this data. Um
this is this is equally true for sustainability data. So
(19:57):
I think the paradigm shift is now in order two
decarbonize our world, create the type of meaningful change biodiversity, restoration,
ocean health, making sure that our forests are healthy. All
of this requires cooperation now at scale. So when you
(20:20):
talk about technology. I mentioned before that especially with digital
and modernization and supply chain, it makes it visible so
everyone can see a source of the truth. So specifically
at IBM, we talk a lot about something called an
intelligent workflow, and this is where you can use technology
(20:42):
like blockchain, like AI, like twinning, like quantum to bring
all of these stakeholders upstream and sourcing and procarement all
the way downstream to the consumer. Even so, take that
QR code that you scant at the shelf. Consumer can
look in their at their phone and see the journey
(21:03):
of that product. They can credibly see where it was sourced.
There's even the the functionality to thank their farmer. So
maybe you're scanning a bag of coffee beans where you
can thank your farmer in act identify the source community.
When have we ever been able in a source to
(21:24):
pay intelligent workflow connect the first kilometer of a supply
chain with the last smile all the way to the
retail shelf. So I think that these are the types
of possibilities and opportunities that are enabled with technology, creativity,
(21:46):
cognitive diversity, and fundamentally rethinking the way that we've done
things right now. Nine of materials in the world actually
our circular which means ninety one percent of the goods
that we use that we consume end up in a
(22:07):
landfill or are wasted in some way, shape or form,
and that is absolutely unsustainable. We are on a path
when we look at our landfills and we look at
just the management of waste and oceans and waterways. We
cannot continue to take make and waste or throw away
(22:29):
goods that we produces. As a species. We're becoming more
and more aware of the societal ripple effects that result
from our consumption. Much of Sherry's job is to think
about how we will live and consume in the future
and how we can affect change today. There's a human
element to her work. Timm as Sherry how she collaborates
(22:51):
with the many humans who are embedded in our supply
chains to get them on board but changing the status
quo and what part creativity plays in her work. This
the whole season of the Smart Talks podcast. It's focused
on creativity and business. Are you a creative person? Of course?
(23:12):
You know what's interesting about my career path. I actually
I started as as an entertainer, as a singer. A
lot of people don't know that. So I was a
musician songwriter for many years. Um, but yeah, I I
there's something about creativity. Um, it's like the human soul
(23:34):
on fire. And when we think about you know, everything
that we're living through right now, we need people who
can be creative and think from different perspectives to redesign
this world and to redesign business and really steer us
(23:54):
into a new future. Now now, now, now, you might
not agree with me, but supply chain and music are
absolutely connected and they're very similar. And I'll show you why.
In supply chain, you always start with customer centricity or
voice of the customer. How are you meeting their their needs,
(24:19):
their wants, how are you fulfilling the demand. It's no
different than being on stage and singing or writing a song.
Think about listening, tempo, cadence and pulse, emoting tone, all
of those things that orchestration. It's just like music. It's
just like supply chain. I love it. So, I mean
(24:43):
you you've conveyed this idea of the creativity and of
the listening and of the tempo. Can you give me
a specific example of of a time that you've you've
helped a client who's come to you and said, look,
I've got to make the supply chain more sustainable, or
maybe the client didn't realize that they had to make
supply chain more sustainable and you convinced them of it,
(25:03):
but just just talk me through a particular client project
or client relationship. So, yeah, looking at a transparent supply
chain in this example, UM, this organization, oh, is a
bit immature in the space, so looking at how you
UM encourage healthy snacking. And they wanted to use data differently.
(25:32):
A lot of the data that they had was very
much disconnected from the way work gets done. But then
they also wanted to bring the customer along with them,
which was a scary proposition because I think one thing
that came out of that engagement is they weren't as
mature as some of their competitors. And they said, if
(25:54):
we voluntarily disclose some of the risks that we know,
we want to dress but we have to start somewhere
taking that first honest step, will it harm our brand?
And it was a really interesting way of looking at
it because as a consumer who actually buys their products,
(26:15):
I thought, Wow, they're starting from a place of wanting
to be honest and wanting to lean in, and we
have to acknowledge that a lot of brands are on
this journey and we are going to see things that
we cannot unsee. Um and very much so. The other
(26:38):
thing was not knowing how to get started. And in
order to give people that level of transparency in this
customer example, they needed the nitty gritty, and the nitty
gritty was very ditty, and it was a lot of
assumptions cobbled together, and I actually had to convince them
(27:00):
that it was a great starting point and and almost
take them from feeling very vulnerable to feeling very confident.
And again, um, I saw services in technology and and
it was it was a great learning moment, frankly, because
technology doesn't necessarily solve that. Um it's very much you know,
(27:20):
connecting that human experience. And that is where specifically, in
this example, the client had a vision for a transparent
supply chain, but didn't know how to piece together a
lot of great ideas where they could actually fund their
transformation over a five year period. Was a billion dollar
(27:42):
business case, a lot of really cool ideas tucked under it,
but it was what's the sequence of steps and why
how do we prioritize resources, funding transforming work. So a
lot of the work was automated, you know, thinking about
the future of work and automation, how do you repurpose
this analysts time for example two more value add time.
(28:06):
So all of that to say it was a It
was a great learning experience, um for me and also
for the brand that I serve, and that we both
got to learn together and do something that really changed
everything for them. It sounds studies work really masses to it?
Does it does? It's why I get up every morning.
(28:29):
I had this moment where it clicked, and it was
about seven years ago. I have three kids, So my
oldest just turned thirteen, and my my oldest shame my
daughter Aris eight and my youngest is seven. And it
was when he was born, UM that I just sat
(28:50):
back and thought, you know, with the climate emergency, Um,
it was it was right around what am I doing? Like,
what am I doing to change this? And you start
to think about, you know, when they're eighteen and God
knows what the world will look like, then what did
you do? What was your response? And being in supply
(29:14):
chain and at the time starting to dabble in sustainability,
I saw those interconnections, and I saw a way marrying
supply chain sustainability and technology to really make a difference
and transforms people's people's lives, and it's good for business
and good for the planet. And I think it was
all of that coming together and clicking for me where
(29:37):
I just said, this is what I'm gonna do. And
it's just been an incredible feeling and nothing can replicate this.
My kids are proud of me. UM. I love my team.
I would choose them even if I wasn't here, I
would find them in the universe. I always tell them
so that that's really what it's about for me, is
is making a better a better world for others, for
(29:59):
my kids, for their kids, um, And that's what matters most.
Just tell me, look twenty years into the future, and
we know the climate isn't going to get any better.
We know we've got a real problem there and it's
for the foreseeable future that will get worse even if
(30:20):
we were able to put some real solutions in place,
but supply chains themselves in twenty years time, what would
you hope sustainable supply chains might look like. I definitely
want community resilience and hyperlocalism to be a driving force
(30:44):
for supply chain transformation, meaning that so a big brand
like do you have community permission to open your doors there?
How do you preserve that community? How do you ensure
that basic needs are being met? That is so critical
and important. I mentioned before that businesses can't succeed in
(31:05):
societies that are failing, and I think that that tie
between profit with purpose and societal impact it's coming to
the forefront now. When I think about a supply chain
in twenty years, you think about community resilience. You think
about you know, how am I enabling others who have
been marginalized or traditionally left behind to have access to healthcare,
(31:29):
to have access to education and upskilling. I think all
of these things, that's what I would want most And
in terms of like how work actually gets done and
how we transform our thinking, it's that we have shorter
supply chains and that we we think about the impacts holistically.
(31:50):
The total cost of ownership for a brand, for a phone,
for a mouse, for a can of sparkling water, what's
the total costs of this really isn't necessarily price, you know,
there are other things that go into that, and I
think that if we really understood the impact that we
(32:11):
have on the world, how we contribute to climate variation
and climate change. I I want to believe and hope
that we would make different decisions. Sher, it's been such
pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tim,
it's been a pleasure. When we think of supply chains,
(32:32):
we typically picture cargo ships or far away factory belts,
maybe a map of the world with a string of
connected dots running from Shenzen to Las Vegas. But what
Sherry does so well is highlight the impact these often
invisible systems have on our daily lives. We all want
supply chains that are ethical, environmentally responsible, and integrated with
(32:55):
local communities. It's good for business, good for the planet,
and good for the consumer. The pandemic gave us a
chance to begin the paradigm shift in supply chain thinking
that Cherry talked about. Now there's an opportunity to put
these ideas into action in our day to day choices,
in our businesses and in our communities. The next time
(33:17):
we're at a grocery store and can't find our favorite snack,
let's take a moment to remember that. On the next
episode of Smart Talks with IBM how AI powered technology
can help us combat the human biases that result in
discriminatory hiring practices. We talked with Angela Hood, founder and
(33:38):
CEO of This Way Global. Smart Talks with IBM is
produced by Matt Romano, David jaw, Royston Deserve, and Edith
Rousselo with Jacob Goldstein. We're edited by Sophie Crane. Our
engineers are Jason Gambrel, Sarah Brugare and Ben Holliday. Theme
(33:58):
song by Grandmasco. Special thanks to Carlly Magliore, Andy Kelly,
Kathy Callaghan and the eight Bar and IBM teams, as
well as the Pushkin marketing team. Smart Talks with IBM
is a production of Pushkin Industries and i Heart Media.
To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the i Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
(34:23):
I'm Malcolm Glaboell. This is a paid advertisement from IBM.
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