December 6, 2019 • 30 mins
Is social media harmful to our real-world relationships? Is there evidence that social media helps us form stronger connections? Why are there so many contradictory studies? Join Jonathan and Lauren as they explore the effects of social media.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios.
How Stuff Works. He there, and welcome to tech Stuff.
I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with
I Heart Radio and I love all things tech and
today is Friday. That means it's time for a classic
(00:24):
episode of tech Stuff. This episode originally published on January
twenty nine, two thousand thirteen. It is titled Social Media
and You, and it features Lauren Vogelbaum as my co host.
Lauren had done a couple of episodes before this one
that you're about to hear. I did not include those
(00:44):
because they were particularly early ones. You can go back
into the archive at tech stuff podcast dot com and
find them. But I found that this one I think
was a good starting point for the Lauren era of
tech Stuff and hope you guys. And really there's a
lot of fear out there, I think in a lot
of a lot of news stories that are kind of
amping up that fear. And there's been several studies that
(01:05):
that talk with this doom and gloom about like about like, oh, no,
social media is so big that we're not going to
talk to each other in person anymore. Um, total communication breakdown,
Captain Dogg's looking together that that kind of thing. Um,
and uh, it's this is not pop stuff, but I
like to just yes anyway, Yeah, no, no no, no, we
quote documentaries all the time here on tech stuff. It's
(01:27):
perfectly fine. And I agree entirely, Lauren. I mean, from
an armchair psychology perspective, if I were to just look
at the whole idea of social media and human interaction
in general, uh, part of me would think, hey, social
media is replacing that face to face human interaction that
(01:48):
we tend to think of as being really important as
part of our development as a person, right, or that
seems to be really important for a very long time. Yeah,
I mean it's it's part of socialization. And the worry
is that without that face to face interaction with something
else replacing it, we would be less capable of dealing
with those interactions when they come up. And a lot
(02:09):
of the information about this tends to be anecdotal, which
anyone who has done any science knows is not reliable
when it comes to actually measuring it's not actually science. Um.
There have been a few studies. There's a one one
that you will here quoted all the time was from
MD Stanford Institute for the Quantitative Study of Society. UM
(02:31):
and uh, this one said, this one is was in
two thousand five to be fair, so this was a
few years ago and before Twitter and Facebook were really huge.
But um, but it found that um, compared to people
who do not use the internet frequently, those who do,
um uh, spend seventy minutes less per day interacting with
their family, twenty five minutes less per day sleeping, and
(02:54):
thirty is less watching television. Although I'm not sure why
that's necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, they could go the
other way, but but that but that family thing, that's
seventy minutes less a day talking to your family, that
sounds that sounds awful, right until of course you're interacting
with your family online exactly, and that's and that's what
we're I think it turns out that that is what
we are doing, right right. Yeah. Again, it's one of
(03:15):
those things where I think the stereotype, the thing that
we all imagine is the person sequestered in his or
her room. Uh, you know, it's dark, Yeah, it's depressing
and probably yeah, the only interaction they get is whomever
is online is through a keyboard and never a microphone, right,
and that's it. And it can be a synchronous communication,
(03:37):
meaning that you know, you leave a message, then later
on the person reads it and then they leave a message.
This is essentially the way email works. It's a synchronous
as opposed to a face to face conversation, which is
generally synchronous unless you're talking to me, in which case
it is just a monologue. But uh, that's the way
I work. But anyway, that's generally speaking, that tends to
be The view is that it's a person who is
(04:00):
withdrawing more and more. And it's this this idea that
social media could ultimately be dehumanizing us, at least in
the sense of how we define what a human is
right now, right, And to be fair, isolation is a
very scary thing. Um. There's all kinds of studies about
about how it can be as bad for you as
smoking and obesity, how it increases cancerus tumors in mice. Um.
(04:24):
I mean, it's developmentally, it's a very big problem. I mean,
there's there are actual cases of tragic cases of children
who are deprived the ability to interact with other people
and how that has impacted their ability to develop as
a human, like, like, you know, they never really develop
beyond a certain what would be equivalent to a certain age,
(04:47):
like a younger age. That there are stories about kids
who were in terrible conditions and you know, grow up
and never really develop beyond say a seven or eight
year old mensial level. Lonely subjects have been found to
have less brain activity than than people with a a
healthy and diverse social network. Yes, whenever I get lonely,
I'm not thinking of anything. It's just me and Supernatural,
(05:11):
Natural Marathon. You had it, man, before I could even
say it. Yes, it's just me and the next episode
of Supernatural. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Brothers
are dreaming. I wouldn't know. I don't want to they
are dreaming. I'm like, I believe you know. Okay, cool,
So anyway, Yes, these are these are all perceptions. Now,
(05:36):
when it comes down to science, there are a lot
of different stays that look at this, and there's some
conflicting results. And part of that is because the nature
of the studies. Part of it is that, you know,
the studies are not necessarily looking at the exact same criteria, right,
So it could be that one seems to contradict another,
but it maybe that in a broader perspective, they're not
really contradictory. It's just they're looking at they're looking at
(05:57):
different aspects. Because when people are talking about social isolation, um,
they're they're talking about the size, the intimacy, the diversity,
and the location of your social network. Right. Yes, there's
lots of different terms for this as well, about whether
or not you have a certain number of confidence like
people that you really connect with. These are the people
(06:18):
with whom you share those deep personal things that are
not something you would talk about to just your your neighbor,
unless they're your confidence or or someone on the street
or your coworker. Necessarily it's it's it's who you go
to when you're upset or when you're happy. It's the
first person that, if you're me, you text message when
when something terrific happens to you, any text messages. Okay,
(06:41):
so awkward, Uh, moving on, I'm dealing with a little
heartbreak here, but it's okay. I I don't don't have
to be everyone's best friend. Well, the thing is that
people that people really um the average person has has
one point eight ish and and that's that's you know,
one one point eight close contexts like that, depending upon
(07:05):
depending on which survey looking at, because some of these
one of the one of the surveys I really looked at,
which is one that you you sent me the information to,
So I thank you, Lauren, because without it I would
have nothing to talk about. But it was a Pew Internet,
Personal Networks and Community survey. Now, before I even get
into the data here, I should stress they surveyed two thousand,
(07:26):
five twelve adults. Now that's a pretty small sample, and
that's not so any results we get you have to
keep in mind this is this is a very small sample.
But within that sample they drew some pretty big conclusions.
One of those was that of American adults said they
used the Internet. So wow, didn't but anyway said they
(07:52):
used the Internet. And nearly half of adults, or of
those who said they use the Internet, say they use
at least on social networking service. So this is stuff
like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, that kind of thing, and this
is sort of tangential to our community. Are our our
conversation here. But I found it really interesting out of
the ones they surveyed of those who used social networking
(08:17):
services said they used Facebook. Them on Facebook is one
of the ones I use, used my Space, LinkedIn, and
used Twitter. So that means more people are using my
Space than Twitter, which to me says the twenty of
people who said that are all in the band. I mean, really,
(08:39):
when was the last time you use my Space? I
deleted my my Space account about a year ago. It's
it's coming back because timber Lakes brought sexy and my Spacebook.
Those are the two things he brought back. I don't
know where he went to find them, but he brought
them back. Um. But yeah, I don't use my Space either.
It just blows my mom that more people are using
(09:01):
my Space that in the survey anyway, than LinkedIn and Twitter.
But um but but but that's I mean, that is
indicative of the of the overall usage. I mean, Facebook
as of October had um one billion monthly active users. Yeah,
that's a huge, huge number. And h and five four
million daily active users. That's a whole bunch of people.
(09:22):
That's that's that's more people than there are even user
accounts on Twitter. Um. As as of December, Twitter had
had more than two million December twelve people with the
Far Future are listening to Back in Future? Where's my
jet pack? Is it on the way the time machine?
(09:42):
Just bring it back to me right? There's no way
they can tell me. This is the sad thing, Like
you've been using it for three years. Time travel stinks
because I only get to go one direction and it's
really slow, second by second. As it turns out, hey
there it's job from twenty nineteen here to say. We're
going to a quick break to thank our sponsor. The
(10:10):
interesting thing about this this survey, I mean we've been
kind of talking about the things they found, but one
of the things they were specifically looking for was this
idea of social isolation and does the use of social
media contribute to social isolation? Is it true that we
are actually withdrawing from society in favor of the interactions
(10:31):
that we have on social networking services? And according to
the service spoiler alert, no, no it's not having Yeah,
they said that according to the surveying that social isolation
has not really changed since which this is just for
people who aren't paying really close attention. Not really a
(10:53):
big year for the internet. Um, if you were using
the Internet, you were in a research facility or a university. Uh,
you are not the average person. Because, of course, the
Worldwide Web the main way we tend to think about
interacting with the Internet, apart from apps and stuff. That's
starting to really take control. But wed Web it wasn't
a thing until ninety two, so obviously is before social
(11:17):
networking services are a thing. Like three people on Prodigy
as of eight and that's not it. So if you're
on a bulletin board system, maybe, but it's before social
networking services obviously. Uh. But these the extent of social
isolation hasn't really changed the sense. So that tells us
that it's very possible social networking services don't have a
(11:39):
big impact. Now we can't say that for sure because
there are a lot of different facts. Yeah, it could
be that we are reducing social isolation at an exponential rate,
but the social networking services are pulling that back. So
it could be that there is an impact on social isolation.
It's just that other factors are pushing it forward, so
(12:01):
it ends up balanced. Yeah. This is the complex thing
about science. This is why drawing conclusions is difficult. You
have to do a lot of studies and really look
at all the different factors and try and control for
as many variables as possible, because otherwise whatever you say
could turn out to be not so true in the
grand scheme of things. But based upon what this survey found,
(12:25):
it looks like social networking services are not turning us
all into hermits. This isn't from the same Pew Internet study.
I think it's from a different one. I didn't write
down which study it's from in my notes, but um,
it's been found that mobile phone use has actually made
our contact lists smaller but more intense. That makes sense.
So for instance, you know, it's not that it's not
that the relationships are less meaningful. It just means that
(12:48):
the ones that we contact were really depending upon them,
and that we might be using a phone in order
to make that connection as opposed to necessary you know,
walking across the street or or driving to a friend's hell,
are meeting up at a coffee shop or whatever. To me,
you know, that just means that we're transferring that same
need for interaction to a different medium. It doesn't mean
(13:08):
that we're losing that interaction. It just means that it's
a you know, we're taking advantage of technology in ways
that we couldn't before, which is awesome because I mean,
I'm sure you've known people who have moved away. You
you yourself have moved a few times. Absolutely. I I
play Halo every Wednesday night so that I get to
hang out with my friends who don't live here anymore. Right,
So this is technology giving us those social interactions that
(13:31):
otherwise we might lose if if we were to relocate
or our friends relocate. And in my view, that's a
huge positive. It means that those those those relationships that
have been formed over years sometimes decades of uh knowing
one another don't fade away. They still remain relevant because
(13:52):
technology allows us to continue to build those relationships. Now,
those interactions, the nature of them might change it, but
it's still a very important part of who we are
and how we interact. And for some people, UM, you
know there there are mentally and physically disabled people, the elderly, um,
new new mothers who can't get out of the house, um,
(14:15):
all kinds of people who they've been doing medical studies
with to see if use of the internet can actually
give them better social interaction. Sure it's it's it's been
found to reduce depression in lots of those groups, UM
and and has really helped people out. So yeah, I've
even seen that there have been studies done with people
(14:36):
who have various mental health conditions who otherwise would find
it very difficult to socialize. They they either not just
awkward like me and Jonathan. Right, No, no, no, the
people who really find it difficult to form any kind
of social contact. It's just one of those things that
it's a block for them and it can be very frustrating,
(14:57):
especially if they observe that other people are capable of
doing this. And there are so many factors involved here.
There's a there's an entire taboo about mental health in
our culture that is that's problematic and so awful. Yeah,
and it feeds on itself, right, it defends this thing
where it just mounts on the person who's experiencing this.
And some of the studies had people using social networks
(15:21):
and and they were finding it much easier to interact
with people and making suggestions on how to create a
social network with tools that would allow them to have
a greater interaction. Which, yeah, you think about that, like,
this is this is what technology should do. Technology should
help people so that they can interact any way they want.
(15:42):
In the you know in a way that brings them
the satisfaction that people can have, you know, people who
don't have these conditions tend to find naturally. Um, I
like this to me, it's to me, it's a great thing.
And anything that decreases that sense of isolation and that
since that taboo is a good thing to and it's
(16:04):
it's an added dimension. It doesn't have to be it
doesn't have to be replacement. It can be and things change,
I mean, I mean Socrates was terrified that writing was
going to ruin people's brains. Oh, I want to talk
about this, but we're gonna get into that all right. Now,
hang on one second. Now, let's take a quick break
to thank our sponsor, and now back to the show.
(16:34):
So you were talking about Socrates and writing, right, the
idea that writing things down means that you're taking stuff
out of your brain and putting it on paper or
stone or clay or whatever. Right a tree, your buddy Bill,
who stands still for really long periods of time, whatever,
you're taking it out of your brain, you're putting it
on something else, and therefore you are no longer relying
(16:55):
on your brain to process that information because you've offloaded
it soccers. You thought this was a terrible idea. The
interesting thing is that attitude has continued up to present day,
which is, you know, I assume why you brought it up,
because today we have computers and and uh smartphones and calculators. Calculators. Yeah,
I could not do complex equations anymore without the use
(17:19):
of a calculator because frankly, I just don't use those
skills as frequently as I as I used to. Well,
you're a writer, you're not a mathematician. I'm not a
good one either, um, and then mathematician that is, I'm
an excellent writer. You should read some of my articles
that how stufforce dot com. You know what I'm talking about.
So anyway, yeah, yeah, I know. That's the exactly I
mean the Nicholas Carr wrote the famous article for The
(17:42):
Atlantic is Google making us stupid? This whole idea that
because we've got so much information on the internet and
we have access to information, and therefore we're less intelligent,
right right, we don't. We don't have to remember stuff,
we don't have to know stuff. We just because I'm
d knows it, right, Yeah, yeah, why do we Why
do I need to even process this information. All I
have to do is type in search query and Google
(18:04):
pull up the first answer, and then and then repeat
it back. It doesn't even mean that I even process
it on a level where I understand it social media
or social networking services. Some people were worried a similar
thing is going on with the social aspect. As we're
talking with the memory and processing of information on the Internet.
(18:24):
This idea that social networking services are creating a less
meaningful way of connecting with people. But things like this
Pew research survey suggest otherwise. It's suggests that we're getting
just as much meaningful interaction online and through technology as
we would face to face. Now, the the actual nature
of that interaction may change somewhat somewhat, but it's still
(18:46):
important and it's still helpful. Yeah, and and that's I mean,
you know that kind of fear of technology. To be fair,
we hear tech stuff are probably biased towards technology and
just maybe maybe a little bit. Please listen to all
our episodes on your computers contacts at Discovery dot com.
But um, but but no, I mean, I mean, fear
(19:07):
of fear of technology isn't going to change the fact
that technology is out there, and it's not going to
change the fact that things are changing. Change happens, society changes,
everything changes, you know, and and fe people were also worried, um,
in the Industrial Revolution that because um, because these these
machines were starting to automate human processes, that that the
(19:30):
the equality of workspace interaction was going to go down,
and and all kinds of other ripple effects out from that.
And sure, that's where we get the whole sabotage thing,
because people, you know, the whole idea throwing the wooden
shoe into the automated loom to destroy it. So are
old old listeners to not not old listeners, but people
(19:52):
listen to old episodes of tech stuff. I know that
We've talked about that many many times, and and it's
not it's you know, the answer is, yes, things are changing,
but no, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, in
fact that that Again, going back to that Pew survey,
one of the other things I thought was really interesting
was that they found that people who use the web
a lot. Again, another one of those those uh perceptions
(20:14):
is that these are people who don't get out as much.
They don't you know, they don't interact in other ways
other than online, but that doesn't seem to be the
case according to the people that they surveyed. According to
the survey, the folks who used the web were actually
more likely to interact with people in their immediate physical environment.
(20:35):
They were more likely to do things like speak to
a neighbor on a on a regular basis or uh yes,
it's six of respondent said that they talked to a
neighbor at least once per month. And they found that
bloggers are seventy two percent more likely to belong to
a local voluntary association than those who do not blog.
So there you've got people who are very much invested
(20:56):
in the online world, but not at the expense of
a physical one, so directly contradicting that armchair psychology approach,
which is why we always say, like, yeah, there's that
whole idea of common sense dictates, which often means I
am wrong, but it seems like I'm right. I do
this all the time. I'm like, well, common sense talking
(21:20):
out of my butt because I don't have any data
in front of me. But yeah, they also found out
they said web users are more likely to visit a cafe.
I did not say if it was an internet cafe,
which obviously would increase the odds, but fifty two percent
more likely to visit a library. Didn't say if that
was because that's how they access the internet, But hey,
(21:41):
thirty four percent more likely to visit a fast food
restaurant that I don't necessarily think it's a good thing.
You know what, I haven't visit a fast food restaurant
in a very long time. I'm not a fast food fan.
More likely to visit other restaurants now I'm in that category.
We might like food and oh gosh, I love food,
And then more likely to visit a public park, which
(22:04):
is awesome. That is awesome. So we're talking about people
who have a real investment in their community and an
interest in the world outside the realm of the computer.
So that does contradict are they aren't going outside, they're
just taking pictures to upload when they get home. Right, Oh,
that reminds me of something I wanted to talk about
that wasn't on our on the notes, but it was.
(22:26):
It's this idea. It's something that's interesting. So one of
the one of the conflicts that people have with whole
social networking services and everything is that it It is
constantly interrupting our daily lives if we are connected in
various ways, so that uh verver ties where it's inappropriate
for you to stop what you're doing and respond to
(22:48):
someone on Facebook or Twitter, like like you're at work,
or you are in a conversation with someone, or you're
up on stage developing a keynote address to a bunch
of people. I'm sorry, but but I was gonna say
like driving, but those are so uh anyway, have you
ever been to uh dinner with someone or a meal
(23:11):
with someone when the very first thing that happens is
smartphone hits the table? Yes, that drives me so crazy.
Are you ever that person? Or do you leave your
smartphone away? Okay, to be fair, I'm very occasionally that person,
but usually it's revenge smartphone use. Usually it's it's after
someone else has brought out their smartphone. I I I
have on occasion gotten a little b huffy and I'll fine,
(23:32):
I'm gonna I'm gonna check Facebook too. Well, Lauren, I
hate to break this to you, but you're gonna get
way worse because now you're a tech stuff co host
and uh, let me put it this way, when I
hang out with other technology podcasts hosts and we all
go out to eat, the table creaks under the weight
of the electronics that hit it. First thing, I am
(23:53):
not kidding. I remember meals with people like and I'm
gonna be dropping some names here, folks, because my back hurt,
get ready, so I gotta drop some weight. Get Ready.
But people like Sarah Lane, i Azactar and tom Merritt
uh this Week in Tech or or Molly Wood of
c net or um oh, justin Robert Young and Brian
(24:14):
Brushwood and and and Veronica Belmont. We've all I've been
to dinner with these folks in various settings, and invariably,
the first thing that happens is everyone's smartphone hits the table,
and anytime you're not looking at a menu or talking,
you're way And I include myself, I am not immune
to this. This is something I've done too, and some
(24:35):
people are better about it than others. But it is
one of those things that can be kind of distracting.
And I will admit this is one of those behaviors
that is socially It's becoming more and more socially acceptable
in the sense that everyone's doing it but it's I
still am a little bit eaked out by it. Yeah,
it can be. It can be insulting if you're talking
to someone and you just see them looking because you know.
(24:57):
But the reason why I brought it up, Oh, there's
a restaurant in Los Angeles called EVA Restaurant E v A.
And I'm sure it's not the only restaurant that does this,
but EVA Restaurant has a policy which is if you
come inside the restaurant and you surrender your cell phone
(25:18):
to the waiter when you come in, you get a
five percent discount on your bill. That's a delightful. So
you come in. The waiter explains the policy, especially in
l A. Yeah, you have the choice of yeah, especially yeah,
no kidding all those actors waiting for the breakout call
or those agents waiting for their actors to call them.
But yeah, it means that you you just you hand
(25:39):
it over and then you concentrate on the food and
the experience. And you know, the restaurant's policy is that
this way, you're really focusing on the meal and you're
enjoying it for what it is, as opposed to distracting
yourself and the meal is just something you're doing in
between tweets. It also means Instagram hates it because there's
so few, so many fewer pick there's a food flooding
(26:01):
the Internet, which which we are in dire lacking of
so food and cats. People need more food and cats
on the internet. Staff. I'm I'm I'm starting my my
me and my tumbler followers are starting a drive for
more acute hedgehogs on the Internet. I think that this
is a thing that needs to happen. Had a good run,
it did well. That bucket, that bucket, it was a
bucket list. Oh no, oh dear, that one. That one
(26:25):
that was such a stretch. That wasn't that joke? Cut
wasn't that that was just not sure? It was just words,
That's what that was. But but but but no, but
I mean it is, it is. It can divide our attention,
and I do. I've seen a couple of news reports
lately that that had this announcer being shocked shocked. Did
you know that when young people wake up they check
(26:45):
their cell phone before getting out of bed. Then I'm like,
I'm like, people don't do that. First of all, my
cell phone is my alarm. Of course, my mind too. Yeah,
because of that by turning off my alarm, I am
checking my cell phone right, And I don't get out
of bed to throw off my alarm because that's just ridiculous.
That would be that would help me wake up. Probably
I should do that, but no, I do not. I'm
(27:07):
a morning person anyway, So as soon as as soon
as those eyes pop up and I'm ready to go,
I'm not happy about it. I'm not sure full morning person.
I'll still be grouchy at you. I just I'm just alert,
that's all. But but yeah, but but but that that
in the kind of behavior where you see more people
at a concert, for example, um, taking photos at the
concert than you do watching the concert. Yeah. Yeah, And
(27:28):
that's the thing, And that's you know, Yeah, I get
grouchy at concerts too. That's why every concert needs to
be a private show of just me and the and
the musician. When one of those get off my lawn
kind of moments. Yeah, there's only a couple of musicians
I know who would be willing to do that, oh,
to to actually do like, okay, it's just me and you,
(27:49):
I'll play my songs for you, someone that we know together.
Because she's nice. Yes, and it would be you know,
she she'd essentially be doing a favor for me. Yes,
So I like hear anything. But yeah, no, I think
it's a good discussion. I mean it's I think ultimately
the takeaway we have to have is that we do
not have a full spectrum of data to really support
(28:16):
this one way or the other. But it looks like
it's not as damaging as we would first think perhaps,
and it may in fact be helpful. Uh, since it's
kind of a social science thing, it's what we call
one of the soft sciences, and whenever you get people involved,
it really messes with the variables. So because we're not
(28:36):
all the same as it turns out crazy. Yeah, funky
about that, right. So ultimately it may we may not
be able to come down and say definitively whether it's
good or bad. It just it looks like it's not. Yeah,
And that wraps up another classic episode of tech Stuff.
Thank you so much for listening. Hope you enjoyed this
(28:58):
and the debut and the classics of Lauren Vogelbaum, who
was my co host for for a little while, quite
some time actually, And so we're gonna be hearing a
lot more from her over the next few classic episodes.
If you guys have suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff,
feel free to get in touch with me. You can
email tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com or
(29:19):
drop a line on Facebook or Twitter. The handle of
both of those is text Stuff h SW. You can
also pop on over to our website, tech stuff podcast
dot com. As I said earlier, you can go to
the archive of every episode we've ever published. It's searchable,
so if you want to look for a specific topic
you can. You can also find a link to our
(29:39):
online store, where every purchase you make goes to out
the show and we greatly appreciate it, and I will
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(30:01):
shows
Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios.
How Stuff Works. He there, and welcome to tech Stuff.
I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with
I Heart Radio and I love all things tech and
today is Friday. That means it's time for a classic
(00:24):
episode of tech Stuff. This episode originally published on January
twenty nine, two thousand thirteen. It is titled Social Media
and You, and it features Lauren Vogelbaum as my co host.
Lauren had done a couple of episodes before this one
that you're about to hear. I did not include those
(00:44):
because they were particularly early ones. You can go back
into the archive at tech stuff podcast dot com and
find them. But I found that this one I think
was a good starting point for the Lauren era of
tech Stuff and hope you guys. And really there's a
lot of fear out there, I think in a lot
of a lot of news stories that are kind of
amping up that fear. And there's been several studies that
(01:05):
that talk with this doom and gloom about like about like, oh, no,
social media is so big that we're not going to
talk to each other in person anymore. Um, total communication breakdown,
Captain Dogg's looking together that that kind of thing. Um,
and uh, it's this is not pop stuff, but I
like to just yes anyway, Yeah, no, no no, no, we
quote documentaries all the time here on tech stuff. It's
(01:27):
perfectly fine. And I agree entirely, Lauren. I mean, from
an armchair psychology perspective, if I were to just look
at the whole idea of social media and human interaction
in general, uh, part of me would think, hey, social
media is replacing that face to face human interaction that
(01:48):
we tend to think of as being really important as
part of our development as a person, right, or that
seems to be really important for a very long time. Yeah,
I mean it's it's part of socialization. And the worry
is that without that face to face interaction with something
else replacing it, we would be less capable of dealing
with those interactions when they come up. And a lot
(02:09):
of the information about this tends to be anecdotal, which
anyone who has done any science knows is not reliable
when it comes to actually measuring it's not actually science. Um.
There have been a few studies. There's a one one
that you will here quoted all the time was from
MD Stanford Institute for the Quantitative Study of Society. UM
(02:31):
and uh, this one said, this one is was in
two thousand five to be fair, so this was a
few years ago and before Twitter and Facebook were really huge.
But um, but it found that um, compared to people
who do not use the internet frequently, those who do,
um uh, spend seventy minutes less per day interacting with
their family, twenty five minutes less per day sleeping, and
(02:54):
thirty is less watching television. Although I'm not sure why
that's necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, they could go the
other way, but but that but that family thing, that's
seventy minutes less a day talking to your family, that
sounds that sounds awful, right until of course you're interacting
with your family online exactly, and that's and that's what
we're I think it turns out that that is what
we are doing, right right. Yeah. Again, it's one of
(03:15):
those things where I think the stereotype, the thing that
we all imagine is the person sequestered in his or
her room. Uh, you know, it's dark, Yeah, it's depressing
and probably yeah, the only interaction they get is whomever
is online is through a keyboard and never a microphone, right,
and that's it. And it can be a synchronous communication,
(03:37):
meaning that you know, you leave a message, then later
on the person reads it and then they leave a message.
This is essentially the way email works. It's a synchronous
as opposed to a face to face conversation, which is
generally synchronous unless you're talking to me, in which case
it is just a monologue. But uh, that's the way
I work. But anyway, that's generally speaking, that tends to
be The view is that it's a person who is
(04:00):
withdrawing more and more. And it's this this idea that
social media could ultimately be dehumanizing us, at least in
the sense of how we define what a human is
right now, right, And to be fair, isolation is a
very scary thing. Um. There's all kinds of studies about
about how it can be as bad for you as
smoking and obesity, how it increases cancerus tumors in mice. Um.
(04:24):
I mean, it's developmentally, it's a very big problem. I mean,
there's there are actual cases of tragic cases of children
who are deprived the ability to interact with other people
and how that has impacted their ability to develop as
a human, like, like, you know, they never really develop
beyond a certain what would be equivalent to a certain age,
(04:47):
like a younger age. That there are stories about kids
who were in terrible conditions and you know, grow up
and never really develop beyond say a seven or eight
year old mensial level. Lonely subjects have been found to
have less brain activity than than people with a a
healthy and diverse social network. Yes, whenever I get lonely,
I'm not thinking of anything. It's just me and Supernatural,
(05:11):
Natural Marathon. You had it, man, before I could even
say it. Yes, it's just me and the next episode
of Supernatural. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Brothers
are dreaming. I wouldn't know. I don't want to they
are dreaming. I'm like, I believe you know. Okay, cool,
So anyway, Yes, these are these are all perceptions. Now,
(05:36):
when it comes down to science, there are a lot
of different stays that look at this, and there's some
conflicting results. And part of that is because the nature
of the studies. Part of it is that, you know,
the studies are not necessarily looking at the exact same criteria, right,
So it could be that one seems to contradict another,
but it maybe that in a broader perspective, they're not
really contradictory. It's just they're looking at they're looking at
(05:57):
different aspects. Because when people are talking about social isolation, um,
they're they're talking about the size, the intimacy, the diversity,
and the location of your social network. Right. Yes, there's
lots of different terms for this as well, about whether
or not you have a certain number of confidence like
people that you really connect with. These are the people
(06:18):
with whom you share those deep personal things that are
not something you would talk about to just your your neighbor,
unless they're your confidence or or someone on the street
or your coworker. Necessarily it's it's it's who you go
to when you're upset or when you're happy. It's the
first person that, if you're me, you text message when
when something terrific happens to you, any text messages. Okay,
(06:41):
so awkward, Uh, moving on, I'm dealing with a little
heartbreak here, but it's okay. I I don't don't have
to be everyone's best friend. Well, the thing is that
people that people really um the average person has has
one point eight ish and and that's that's you know,
one one point eight close contexts like that, depending upon
(07:05):
depending on which survey looking at, because some of these
one of the one of the surveys I really looked at,
which is one that you you sent me the information to,
So I thank you, Lauren, because without it I would
have nothing to talk about. But it was a Pew Internet,
Personal Networks and Community survey. Now, before I even get
into the data here, I should stress they surveyed two thousand,
(07:26):
five twelve adults. Now that's a pretty small sample, and
that's not so any results we get you have to
keep in mind this is this is a very small sample.
But within that sample they drew some pretty big conclusions.
One of those was that of American adults said they
used the Internet. So wow, didn't but anyway said they
(07:52):
used the Internet. And nearly half of adults, or of
those who said they use the Internet, say they use
at least on social networking service. So this is stuff
like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, that kind of thing, and this
is sort of tangential to our community. Are our our
conversation here. But I found it really interesting out of
the ones they surveyed of those who used social networking
(08:17):
services said they used Facebook. Them on Facebook is one
of the ones I use, used my Space, LinkedIn, and
used Twitter. So that means more people are using my
Space than Twitter, which to me says the twenty of
people who said that are all in the band. I mean, really,
(08:39):
when was the last time you use my Space? I
deleted my my Space account about a year ago. It's
it's coming back because timber Lakes brought sexy and my Spacebook.
Those are the two things he brought back. I don't
know where he went to find them, but he brought
them back. Um. But yeah, I don't use my Space either.
It just blows my mom that more people are using
(09:01):
my Space that in the survey anyway, than LinkedIn and Twitter.
But um but but but that's I mean, that is
indicative of the of the overall usage. I mean, Facebook
as of October had um one billion monthly active users. Yeah,
that's a huge, huge number. And h and five four
million daily active users. That's a whole bunch of people.
(09:22):
That's that's that's more people than there are even user
accounts on Twitter. Um. As as of December, Twitter had
had more than two million December twelve people with the
Far Future are listening to Back in Future? Where's my
jet pack? Is it on the way the time machine?
(09:42):
Just bring it back to me right? There's no way
they can tell me. This is the sad thing, Like
you've been using it for three years. Time travel stinks
because I only get to go one direction and it's
really slow, second by second. As it turns out, hey
there it's job from twenty nineteen here to say. We're
going to a quick break to thank our sponsor. The
(10:10):
interesting thing about this this survey, I mean we've been
kind of talking about the things they found, but one
of the things they were specifically looking for was this
idea of social isolation and does the use of social
media contribute to social isolation? Is it true that we
are actually withdrawing from society in favor of the interactions
(10:31):
that we have on social networking services? And according to
the service spoiler alert, no, no it's not having Yeah,
they said that according to the surveying that social isolation
has not really changed since which this is just for
people who aren't paying really close attention. Not really a
(10:53):
big year for the internet. Um, if you were using
the Internet, you were in a research facility or a university. Uh,
you are not the average person. Because, of course, the
Worldwide Web the main way we tend to think about
interacting with the Internet, apart from apps and stuff. That's
starting to really take control. But wed Web it wasn't
a thing until ninety two, so obviously is before social
(11:17):
networking services are a thing. Like three people on Prodigy
as of eight and that's not it. So if you're
on a bulletin board system, maybe, but it's before social
networking services obviously. Uh. But these the extent of social
isolation hasn't really changed the sense. So that tells us
that it's very possible social networking services don't have a
(11:39):
big impact. Now we can't say that for sure because
there are a lot of different facts. Yeah, it could
be that we are reducing social isolation at an exponential rate,
but the social networking services are pulling that back. So
it could be that there is an impact on social isolation.
It's just that other factors are pushing it forward, so
(12:01):
it ends up balanced. Yeah. This is the complex thing
about science. This is why drawing conclusions is difficult. You
have to do a lot of studies and really look
at all the different factors and try and control for
as many variables as possible, because otherwise whatever you say
could turn out to be not so true in the
grand scheme of things. But based upon what this survey found,
(12:25):
it looks like social networking services are not turning us
all into hermits. This isn't from the same Pew Internet study.
I think it's from a different one. I didn't write
down which study it's from in my notes, but um,
it's been found that mobile phone use has actually made
our contact lists smaller but more intense. That makes sense.
So for instance, you know, it's not that it's not
that the relationships are less meaningful. It just means that
(12:48):
the ones that we contact were really depending upon them,
and that we might be using a phone in order
to make that connection as opposed to necessary you know,
walking across the street or or driving to a friend's hell,
are meeting up at a coffee shop or whatever. To me,
you know, that just means that we're transferring that same
need for interaction to a different medium. It doesn't mean
(13:08):
that we're losing that interaction. It just means that it's
a you know, we're taking advantage of technology in ways
that we couldn't before, which is awesome because I mean,
I'm sure you've known people who have moved away. You
you yourself have moved a few times. Absolutely. I I
play Halo every Wednesday night so that I get to
hang out with my friends who don't live here anymore. Right,
So this is technology giving us those social interactions that
(13:31):
otherwise we might lose if if we were to relocate
or our friends relocate. And in my view, that's a
huge positive. It means that those those those relationships that
have been formed over years sometimes decades of uh knowing
one another don't fade away. They still remain relevant because
(13:52):
technology allows us to continue to build those relationships. Now,
those interactions, the nature of them might change it, but
it's still a very important part of who we are
and how we interact. And for some people, UM, you
know there there are mentally and physically disabled people, the elderly, um,
new new mothers who can't get out of the house, um,
(14:15):
all kinds of people who they've been doing medical studies
with to see if use of the internet can actually
give them better social interaction. Sure it's it's it's been
found to reduce depression in lots of those groups, UM
and and has really helped people out. So yeah, I've
even seen that there have been studies done with people
(14:36):
who have various mental health conditions who otherwise would find
it very difficult to socialize. They they either not just
awkward like me and Jonathan. Right, No, no, no, the
people who really find it difficult to form any kind
of social contact. It's just one of those things that
it's a block for them and it can be very frustrating,
(14:57):
especially if they observe that other people are capable of
doing this. And there are so many factors involved here.
There's a there's an entire taboo about mental health in
our culture that is that's problematic and so awful. Yeah,
and it feeds on itself, right, it defends this thing
where it just mounts on the person who's experiencing this.
And some of the studies had people using social networks
(15:21):
and and they were finding it much easier to interact
with people and making suggestions on how to create a
social network with tools that would allow them to have
a greater interaction. Which, yeah, you think about that, like,
this is this is what technology should do. Technology should
help people so that they can interact any way they want.
(15:42):
In the you know in a way that brings them
the satisfaction that people can have, you know, people who
don't have these conditions tend to find naturally. Um, I
like this to me, it's to me, it's a great thing.
And anything that decreases that sense of isolation and that
since that taboo is a good thing to and it's
(16:04):
it's an added dimension. It doesn't have to be it
doesn't have to be replacement. It can be and things change,
I mean, I mean Socrates was terrified that writing was
going to ruin people's brains. Oh, I want to talk
about this, but we're gonna get into that all right. Now,
hang on one second. Now, let's take a quick break
to thank our sponsor, and now back to the show.
(16:34):
So you were talking about Socrates and writing, right, the
idea that writing things down means that you're taking stuff
out of your brain and putting it on paper or
stone or clay or whatever. Right a tree, your buddy Bill,
who stands still for really long periods of time, whatever,
you're taking it out of your brain, you're putting it
on something else, and therefore you are no longer relying
(16:55):
on your brain to process that information because you've offloaded
it soccers. You thought this was a terrible idea. The
interesting thing is that attitude has continued up to present day,
which is, you know, I assume why you brought it up,
because today we have computers and and uh smartphones and calculators. Calculators. Yeah,
I could not do complex equations anymore without the use
(17:19):
of a calculator because frankly, I just don't use those
skills as frequently as I as I used to. Well,
you're a writer, you're not a mathematician. I'm not a
good one either, um, and then mathematician that is, I'm
an excellent writer. You should read some of my articles
that how stufforce dot com. You know what I'm talking about.
So anyway, yeah, yeah, I know. That's the exactly I
mean the Nicholas Carr wrote the famous article for The
(17:42):
Atlantic is Google making us stupid? This whole idea that
because we've got so much information on the internet and
we have access to information, and therefore we're less intelligent,
right right, we don't. We don't have to remember stuff,
we don't have to know stuff. We just because I'm
d knows it, right, Yeah, yeah, why do we Why
do I need to even process this information. All I
have to do is type in search query and Google
(18:04):
pull up the first answer, and then and then repeat
it back. It doesn't even mean that I even process
it on a level where I understand it social media
or social networking services. Some people were worried a similar
thing is going on with the social aspect. As we're
talking with the memory and processing of information on the Internet.
(18:24):
This idea that social networking services are creating a less
meaningful way of connecting with people. But things like this
Pew research survey suggest otherwise. It's suggests that we're getting
just as much meaningful interaction online and through technology as
we would face to face. Now, the the actual nature
of that interaction may change somewhat somewhat, but it's still
(18:46):
important and it's still helpful. Yeah, and and that's I mean,
you know that kind of fear of technology. To be fair,
we hear tech stuff are probably biased towards technology and
just maybe maybe a little bit. Please listen to all
our episodes on your computers contacts at Discovery dot com.
But um, but but no, I mean, I mean, fear
(19:07):
of fear of technology isn't going to change the fact
that technology is out there, and it's not going to
change the fact that things are changing. Change happens, society changes,
everything changes, you know, and and fe people were also worried, um,
in the Industrial Revolution that because um, because these these
machines were starting to automate human processes, that that the
(19:30):
the equality of workspace interaction was going to go down,
and and all kinds of other ripple effects out from that.
And sure, that's where we get the whole sabotage thing,
because people, you know, the whole idea throwing the wooden
shoe into the automated loom to destroy it. So are
old old listeners to not not old listeners, but people
(19:52):
listen to old episodes of tech stuff. I know that
We've talked about that many many times, and and it's
not it's you know, the answer is, yes, things are changing,
but no, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, in
fact that that Again, going back to that Pew survey,
one of the other things I thought was really interesting
was that they found that people who use the web
a lot. Again, another one of those those uh perceptions
(20:14):
is that these are people who don't get out as much.
They don't you know, they don't interact in other ways
other than online, but that doesn't seem to be the
case according to the people that they surveyed. According to
the survey, the folks who used the web were actually
more likely to interact with people in their immediate physical environment.
(20:35):
They were more likely to do things like speak to
a neighbor on a on a regular basis or uh yes,
it's six of respondent said that they talked to a
neighbor at least once per month. And they found that
bloggers are seventy two percent more likely to belong to
a local voluntary association than those who do not blog.
So there you've got people who are very much invested
(20:56):
in the online world, but not at the expense of
a physical one, so directly contradicting that armchair psychology approach,
which is why we always say, like, yeah, there's that
whole idea of common sense dictates, which often means I
am wrong, but it seems like I'm right. I do
this all the time. I'm like, well, common sense talking
(21:20):
out of my butt because I don't have any data
in front of me. But yeah, they also found out
they said web users are more likely to visit a cafe.
I did not say if it was an internet cafe,
which obviously would increase the odds, but fifty two percent
more likely to visit a library. Didn't say if that
was because that's how they access the internet, But hey,
(21:41):
thirty four percent more likely to visit a fast food
restaurant that I don't necessarily think it's a good thing.
You know what, I haven't visit a fast food restaurant
in a very long time. I'm not a fast food fan.
More likely to visit other restaurants now I'm in that category.
We might like food and oh gosh, I love food,
And then more likely to visit a public park, which
(22:04):
is awesome. That is awesome. So we're talking about people
who have a real investment in their community and an
interest in the world outside the realm of the computer.
So that does contradict are they aren't going outside, they're
just taking pictures to upload when they get home. Right, Oh,
that reminds me of something I wanted to talk about
that wasn't on our on the notes, but it was.
(22:26):
It's this idea. It's something that's interesting. So one of
the one of the conflicts that people have with whole
social networking services and everything is that it It is
constantly interrupting our daily lives if we are connected in
various ways, so that uh verver ties where it's inappropriate
for you to stop what you're doing and respond to
(22:48):
someone on Facebook or Twitter, like like you're at work,
or you are in a conversation with someone, or you're
up on stage developing a keynote address to a bunch
of people. I'm sorry, but but I was gonna say
like driving, but those are so uh anyway, have you
ever been to uh dinner with someone or a meal
(23:11):
with someone when the very first thing that happens is
smartphone hits the table? Yes, that drives me so crazy.
Are you ever that person? Or do you leave your
smartphone away? Okay, to be fair, I'm very occasionally that person,
but usually it's revenge smartphone use. Usually it's it's after
someone else has brought out their smartphone. I I I
have on occasion gotten a little b huffy and I'll fine,
(23:32):
I'm gonna I'm gonna check Facebook too. Well, Lauren, I
hate to break this to you, but you're gonna get
way worse because now you're a tech stuff co host
and uh, let me put it this way, when I
hang out with other technology podcasts hosts and we all
go out to eat, the table creaks under the weight
of the electronics that hit it. First thing, I am
(23:53):
not kidding. I remember meals with people like and I'm
gonna be dropping some names here, folks, because my back hurt,
get ready, so I gotta drop some weight. Get Ready.
But people like Sarah Lane, i Azactar and tom Merritt
uh this Week in Tech or or Molly Wood of
c net or um oh, justin Robert Young and Brian
(24:14):
Brushwood and and and Veronica Belmont. We've all I've been
to dinner with these folks in various settings, and invariably,
the first thing that happens is everyone's smartphone hits the table,
and anytime you're not looking at a menu or talking,
you're way And I include myself, I am not immune
to this. This is something I've done too, and some
(24:35):
people are better about it than others. But it is
one of those things that can be kind of distracting.
And I will admit this is one of those behaviors
that is socially It's becoming more and more socially acceptable
in the sense that everyone's doing it but it's I
still am a little bit eaked out by it. Yeah,
it can be. It can be insulting if you're talking
to someone and you just see them looking because you know.
(24:57):
But the reason why I brought it up, Oh, there's
a restaurant in Los Angeles called EVA Restaurant E v A.
And I'm sure it's not the only restaurant that does this,
but EVA Restaurant has a policy which is if you
come inside the restaurant and you surrender your cell phone
(25:18):
to the waiter when you come in, you get a
five percent discount on your bill. That's a delightful. So
you come in. The waiter explains the policy, especially in
l A. Yeah, you have the choice of yeah, especially yeah,
no kidding all those actors waiting for the breakout call
or those agents waiting for their actors to call them.
But yeah, it means that you you just you hand
(25:39):
it over and then you concentrate on the food and
the experience. And you know, the restaurant's policy is that
this way, you're really focusing on the meal and you're
enjoying it for what it is, as opposed to distracting
yourself and the meal is just something you're doing in
between tweets. It also means Instagram hates it because there's
so few, so many fewer pick there's a food flooding
(26:01):
the Internet, which which we are in dire lacking of
so food and cats. People need more food and cats
on the internet. Staff. I'm I'm I'm starting my my
me and my tumbler followers are starting a drive for
more acute hedgehogs on the Internet. I think that this
is a thing that needs to happen. Had a good run,
it did well. That bucket, that bucket, it was a
bucket list. Oh no, oh dear, that one. That one
(26:25):
that was such a stretch. That wasn't that joke? Cut
wasn't that that was just not sure? It was just words,
That's what that was. But but but but no, but
I mean it is, it is. It can divide our attention,
and I do. I've seen a couple of news reports
lately that that had this announcer being shocked shocked. Did
you know that when young people wake up they check
(26:45):
their cell phone before getting out of bed. Then I'm like,
I'm like, people don't do that. First of all, my
cell phone is my alarm. Of course, my mind too. Yeah,
because of that by turning off my alarm, I am
checking my cell phone right, And I don't get out
of bed to throw off my alarm because that's just ridiculous.
That would be that would help me wake up. Probably
I should do that, but no, I do not. I'm
(27:07):
a morning person anyway, So as soon as as soon
as those eyes pop up and I'm ready to go,
I'm not happy about it. I'm not sure full morning person.
I'll still be grouchy at you. I just I'm just alert,
that's all. But but yeah, but but but that that
in the kind of behavior where you see more people
at a concert, for example, um, taking photos at the
concert than you do watching the concert. Yeah. Yeah, And
(27:28):
that's the thing, And that's you know, Yeah, I get
grouchy at concerts too. That's why every concert needs to
be a private show of just me and the and
the musician. When one of those get off my lawn
kind of moments. Yeah, there's only a couple of musicians
I know who would be willing to do that, oh,
to to actually do like, okay, it's just me and you,
(27:49):
I'll play my songs for you, someone that we know together.
Because she's nice. Yes, and it would be you know,
she she'd essentially be doing a favor for me. Yes,
So I like hear anything. But yeah, no, I think
it's a good discussion. I mean it's I think ultimately
the takeaway we have to have is that we do
not have a full spectrum of data to really support
(28:16):
this one way or the other. But it looks like
it's not as damaging as we would first think perhaps,
and it may in fact be helpful. Uh, since it's
kind of a social science thing, it's what we call
one of the soft sciences, and whenever you get people involved,
it really messes with the variables. So because we're not
(28:36):
all the same as it turns out crazy. Yeah, funky
about that, right. So ultimately it may we may not
be able to come down and say definitively whether it's
good or bad. It just it looks like it's not. Yeah,
And that wraps up another classic episode of tech Stuff.
Thank you so much for listening. Hope you enjoyed this
(28:58):
and the debut and the classics of Lauren Vogelbaum, who
was my co host for for a little while, quite
some time actually, And so we're gonna be hearing a
lot more from her over the next few classic episodes.
If you guys have suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff,
feel free to get in touch with me. You can
email tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com or
(29:19):
drop a line on Facebook or Twitter. The handle of
both of those is text Stuff h SW. You can
also pop on over to our website, tech stuff podcast
dot com. As I said earlier, you can go to
the archive of every episode we've ever published. It's searchable,
so if you want to look for a specific topic
you can. You can also find a link to our
(29:39):
online store, where every purchase you make goes to out
the show and we greatly appreciate it, and I will
talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is a
production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or where are you listen to your favorite
(30:01):
shows
TechStuff News
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Oz Woloshyn
Karah Preiss
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