Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how
stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.
I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with
How Stuff Works and I heart radio and love all
things tech. And before I jump into today's topic, first
I want to welcome a special guest. I have Annie
(00:25):
from Stuff Mom Never Told You right here in the studio.
That's right. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah,
thank you for literally sitting still in the studio after
just recording an episode of Stuff Mom Never Told You
and letting me come in here and record tech Stuff.
It's kind of like it's my job or something. I
was very excited to have this opportunity to have this
conversation with you, and also, um, yeah, be beyond tech stuff. Awesome. Well,
(00:48):
I'm glad you can slum it. Stuff Mom Never Told
You It was a phenomenal show and has been ever
since its inception. I remember actually being there on the
pitch meetings for that show. So it's been fantastic seeing
that show grow over the years and evolved. It's been
a phenomenal. And again, before we jump into this topic,
one thing I want to say at the outset for everybody.
(01:10):
This is gonna be a very special episode of tech Stuff.
It's gonna be We're gonna deal with some mature themes, uh,
some adult themes. These are all euphemisms. We're gonna be
talking about sexuality. We're gonna talk about gender bias. We're
gonna talk about double standards. We're gonna be talking specifically
about a product that is a sex toy. We're gonna
(01:30):
be talking about this frankly and honestly because I think
it's a very important subject for many reasons. But I
wanted to make that clear at the outset just in
case there are any listeners out there who are not
comfortable with this subject matter. Uh, they feel like that's inappropriate.
I'm not passing any judgment whatsoever. I completely understand. So
(01:52):
this is a fair warning if you do find those
sort of topics uncomfortable, I totally understand. However, I do
stress that you should check out stuff Mom never told you,
because you will learn very quickly to become comfortable with
the subjects because they are important ones, and you'll realize, oh, okay,
I get it. But I realized that for Tech Stuff audience,
(02:13):
that might be asking a lot right of the gate.
So now that that's out of the way, what did
what brought us here together today? So I went to
see E S two thousand nineteen in Las Vegas, Nevada,
which I have learned is pronounced Nevada, not not Nevada. No, no,
I've been making that mistake for you years, you and
most of the country. But the people of the fine
(02:36):
state of Nevada will tell you, yes, that you are incorrect.
When I went there, one of the stories that popped
up was about a product called ose o s E
with an accent uh and oh excellent, My my French
(02:57):
is not parfit. Unfortunately, that was be good though I think,
I think and blame, but Francai not so well. So
at the c E S there was this ose product,
which some people have described as a vibrator, although the
(03:17):
creators would quickly point out that that is far too
simple simple a name for this thing. But it's specifically
a sex toy marketed for women, designed by women. And
they had submitted this product to the Consumer Technology Association,
that's the organization that throws c E s for consideration
(03:39):
for what is called an innovation award. They got one.
Then they got a letter saying, just kidding, we're not
going to give you that award, we're taking it back.
And then also, oh and by the way, you aren't
allowed to show this product at c E S. And
that brought up this enormous conversation about what actually happened.
Who's in the wrong? Was this say about the not
(04:01):
just the technology, but the attitudes towards sexuality, specifically women's sexuality? Um?
Are there double standards in play? And so we're gonna
suss all that out. Annie, And I asked you on
here because I wanted someone who has credibility to be
on this show for once. Well, thank you, thank you,
I appreciate that. UM, I have never been to see yes,
(04:25):
and I know you're kind of old hat with it.
Um was this something because from what I understand, they
found out like a month later that the award had
been rescinded. Right They submitted the the application earlier in
UH in two thousands, two thousand eighteen, So this process
takes a long time. Obviously, UH companies typically submit these
(04:49):
products to the Consumer Technology Association. They, in theory anyway,
go through and screen all the products and then all
the ones that at least past the initial screening go
to an independent review board. They assign a score. Any
product that gets a certain score or higher meets a
threshold gets the designation of Honoree. Whichever product gets the
(05:12):
highest score in its category gets a Best of Innovation award.
So there is no limit to the number of honorees.
The limit is only based upon the quality of the
products that they get. UH. And the companies that submit
these no no well ahead of time because they need
to be able to market the product as a Best
of c E S or an Honoree or whatever. UM.
(05:35):
So they had known all the way back in October
two thousand eighteen that this was gonna be an Honoree product,
But then they got the letter in October That was
like a month after they had found out the the award.
So I guess they technically learned to the award in
September two tho eighteen, get the letter in October two
thousand eighteen saying loll just kidding, we're taking it back
(05:57):
and uh. And so the news didn't break immediately then,
which some people would argue was kind of a publicity stunt,
but I would argue that's absolutely what was needed um.
The news broke during the show itself because they did
show off the OZ at an event called show Stoppers.
(06:21):
So CS is this huge, huge event, and there are
a lot of little spinoff events that are some of
which are directly connected to c e S and some
of which are not at all endorsed or sponsored by
c e S, but are always part of it, and
show Stoppers is one of them. It's an opportunity for
some of the smaller exhibitors to get together and show
off their products and be seen. And so while OSE
(06:46):
was banned from ce S because show Stoppers was not
an official ce S event, they still could exhibit there.
So they did go there, and that's where the story
really started to get traction because this was the OS
is the very first product from the company Laura Dick
de Carlo, which is that that's the name of the
company that produces it. Um It's the first product they've
(07:06):
ever made, so they didn't have a lot of press
attention leading into this. This is kind of in a
way you could argue ultimately it's probably the best thing
that could have happened for that company because it brought
so much attention to it and there it's the subject
of eight patents, right, like any robotics and bioimicry. Because
(07:29):
obviously the team at De Carlo wanted to know what
reason are you sending this award? Yeah, And they got
a couple of different responses, uh, one of which was infuriating. Um, well,
both of them, I would argue are infuriating, but the
first one in the initial letter that was sent to
them that told them that the award had been rescinded.
(07:52):
There's a passage. I'll quote it directly because I want
to make sure I get it right. This is what
the ct A wrote back. They said, entries deemed by
c t A in their soul discretion to be immoral, obscene, indecent, profane,
or not in keeping with c t a s image
will be disqualified. C TA reserves the right and its
sole discretion to disqualify any entry at any time which,
(08:15):
in c t a's opinion, endangers the safety or well
being of any person or fails to comply with these
official rules. End quote. That is a loaded statement if
I ever heard one. Right. So, women's sexual pleasure is
either immoral, profane, yeah, or not in keeping with CTIAS image,
(08:35):
which I would argue is probably the one that is
the most true. But in a way that is is
me passing judgment on C t A, not on women's sexuality.
So let's let's get a little broader picture here for
a second. Um, C E S and sexuality are not
separate things and never the twain shall meet. In fact,
(08:56):
it is totally not the case. From the nineteen eighties
until two thousand eleven, the two the C S event
happened in conjunction with another big event in Las Vegas,
the Adult Video Network Awards or an Adult Video a
v N show. So this was a show in which
(09:17):
adult content, essentially pornography if you prefer that term, was
going on and frequently you if you had a badge
to one, if you had a badge specifically to C
E S, it would get you entry into the other
conference as well. And there were lots of comments about
this about how the target audience for both conferences tended
(09:37):
to be the same, which was mostly straight dudes, um
and that. But anyway that there was no real there
was no real shying away from that. It's not like
they weren't officially handshaking being buddy buddy about the two conferences,
but they also weren't shying away from it at all.
And the only reason the two conferences went their separate
(09:58):
ways and now are scheduled at different times of the
year or different times in January is because they were
just running out of space. It wasn't so much that
it was oh no, we can't be associated with them,
as opposed to well the adult video guys were saying,
the real problem is that c S is jacking up
all the prices of all the hotel rooms in all
of Las Vegas, so people can't afford to come to
(10:20):
our conference. So we're gonna hold it a different time
where the hotel rates will be back down to normal.
So I had nothing to do with being obscene or profane.
So the question then is why is this product viewed
as that? Especially if you were to walk around c
e S. Especially if you were to walk around and
really pay attention, you would find that there was a
(10:41):
meeting room off the main hall and c e S
where Naughty America was showing off a virtual reality application
in which you could view pornography and virtual reality, and
they were giving live demonstrations of this. At CES. There
was so Lerna, which was a sex robot meant for men,
(11:02):
essentially a very advanced sex doll um. And there are
other aids as well that mostly you could argue, even
those that are intended to be used by women are
done so in a way that kind of reflects back
toward men. Yeah, those all seemed to be fine. They
were all allowed to be shown. The OZ was not right.
(11:25):
And I know that CS until pretty recently, right had
the not that this is exactly on the same level,
but they had booth babes. Oh yes, yeah, in fact
they still do, but it's not it's not nearly as
prevalent as it used to be. But yes, that used
to be that if you walked in. When I first
went to ce S in two thousand eight, it was
a very common practice to employ women, usually models, typically
(11:51):
wearing revealing clothing um for really just the purpose of
enticing people into the booth a slee men. Yes, and
it was it was typically these women would have at least,
you know, kind of a bird's eye overview of what
was in the booth, so that they could at least
give a very shallow spiel of what was happening there.
(12:15):
But rarely was it the case that they were informed
enough to really talk about the products, so they were
there almost like set decoration. Uh. It was very much
an objectification kind of thing. Uh. There were exceptions. There
were some people who employed what would folks would refer
to as booth babes, and they were incredibly well informed
(12:36):
and good on them, fantastic. Still was a little weird
that they're using women in revealing clothing to try and
get people to come into a booth. Um. I can't
tell you how many times I was trying to get
from point A to point B in a conference center
and couldn't get through the hall that I was in
because there was just an enormous crowd stopped to taking
(12:58):
so they can take photos of booth abes posing. Um,
I know this will shock you. The ed Hardy booth
one year was particularly bad about that. Um. But yeah,
that that is less prevalent today. There are still booths
that use women uh to try and entice people to
come in, but it's not nearly as overt and it's
(13:20):
not nearly as prevalent. So that's largely been cut back,
but it's still something you see occasionally and in in
these are current times. UM. Well, one I probably hear
from listeners so much about this UM tech company ABC
(13:41):
has done X y Z sexist thing. UM. The culture
is hostile towards women and i'n binary folks. UM forces
them out and it's infuriating because it is a self
fulfilling prophecy. It maintains this tatus quo so many stories
and technology and entertainment gone. Yeah, but also CS because
of this climate we're in where you will get called
(14:02):
out for this stuff now, Like they in sen they
had an all male lineup of keynote speakers UM, and
that led to the hashtag CS so male and also
these terms like programmer and bro topia. So in your experience,
is it I'm sure there's probably data somewhere, but is
(14:25):
it mostly men? Okay? Let me put to you this way. Okay.
One of the long standing jokes, and it's not really
a joke, but it's kind of like the trope is
that ce S is a conference where it's one of
the few places where you're going to have an enormous
group of people and there's always a line for the
men's room and not one for the ladies room. So
(14:45):
you get immediately what that means, right, immediately understand you're thinking, oh, yeah, no,
that tells me what's happening here is like and you'll
I remember talking with so Press gets real chummy chummy
at CES, you know, because we all end up working
in the same media rooms, so we end up talking
with each other. I talked with a lot of women
(15:06):
impress over the last twelve years of covering C E
S and I remember multiple times where they said, like,
the one thing I like about this show is I
never have to wait if I need to go to
the bathroom. I just there's never a line like that's
the one good thing. And I'm thinking, you know, I
was like ha ha ha at the time, and then
as time has gone on and I've become more as
(15:27):
the kids say, woke, I thought, hole, that was more
of a warning red flag that I should have really
paid attention to. That wasn't so much a you know,
here's something funny about the show, but rather uh this
is this literally is one of the few positive things
I can say about this experience from from the perspective
of a woman. And the more I paid attention and
(15:49):
the more I stepped outside of who I am as
just a boring straight white dude. Uh, the more I
began to appreciate that, but it does require that you
take if you're like me, it does require that you
take yourself out of that. The state of Georgia is
still a state where as far as I know, where
sex toys have to still be called adult novelties. Yeah,
(16:10):
obscenity laws, Yeah, I think it was. It prevented storage
from selling sex toys until a few years ago they
sold novelty items. Or I think this is really telling
marital aids. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the state I
grew up in, So you know, it's it's it's taking
a long personal journey of growth for me to get
(16:31):
to the point where I can have at least an
appreciation of what is happening. Not it's still not directly
affecting me um in that sense, which again is a
reason why I wanted to have somebody else on this
show to talk about this topic. Hey, it's Jonathan from
the Future breaking into Jonathan from the past, and I'm interrupting,
probably me, but possibly Annie. Either way, We're going to
(16:53):
be right back with more of this conversation. But first,
let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. Another
thing that kind of gears back into this is, uh,
you know, I said that the initial response was saying
this obscenity thing, and obviously that needed to be walked
(17:16):
back on right away or else that was going to
be the worst optics in the world. And not like
I mean, you can't you can never unsay stuff, so
it's still really bad optics. But there was a subsequent
letter that came from Gary Shapiro, who's the president of
c T A and UM. One of the executive vice presidents,
Karen ch I believe, wrote a letter and they said
(17:38):
in that one not that this was an obscene or
profane product, but rather the reason that they rescinded the
award was because the product did not meet the qualifications
of the category to which it had been submitted, Because
there are twenty eight, at least in nineteen there were
twenty eight different categories for Innovation Awards, and Ose was
(18:03):
submitted in the Robotics and Drone category, which, when you
first think about it, you know, if you if you're
told the oversimplified story of this is a vibrator that
was submitted to Robotics and Drone, your first thought is
like well, yeah, that doesn't that doesn't seem to fit.
But in fact, one, it's far more complicated than a vibrator.
(18:26):
It doesn't vibrate. It has all these motions that are
meant to mimic human motions. The one of the purpose,
the stated purpose of the OSE is to create a
blended orgasm, and in fact that the founder of Laura
de Carlos, says that she's very up front. She says,
I'm working to perfect the female orgasm. That's what I'm
(18:50):
looking to do. And this is to be a product
where you don't have to use your hands. It's mimicking
human motion. It's meant to mimic up partner. It's supposed
to UH. It has all these complicated things like it has.
It has a high end it, it's got uh, it's
got high tech materials in it, it's got robotics all
(19:13):
through the design of this product. They have a PhD
in robotics who worked on this, so they said that
it obviously should qualify. And I actually went back and
looked at earlier recipients of the Robotics and Drone honorees,
and in one of those honorees was a lidar sensor,
(19:36):
which in itself is not a robot. It's not a drone.
It's a component. Now it's it's an important component. Light.
Our sensors allow robots to detect the range between them
and other objects, and they can do it very very quickly.
It's what autonomous cars use as part of their systems
to detect the environment around them. So very important. But
(19:58):
it's not a robot, it's not a drone. It's a component.
And yet this other device, which you would argue this
seems to fit in robotics way more than a sensor would,
is somehow disqualified. So it still doesn't seem to be
a satisfactory reason for and it certainly doesn't seem to
be a satisfactory reason to say, not only were we
(20:20):
taking your reward away, we aren't allowing you to to
exhibit at c S right. And I mean they went through,
like you said, they had to go through this panel
of judges and they all said, oh, yeah, it qualifies.
And like I said earlier, it's the subject of eight
pending patents for robotics, biomimicry, and engineering. That doesn't seem
(20:42):
like it's something that is just a simple device. And
you know ce s is no shortage of the same
thing a billion times over. And simple gadgets. I mean
you see them everywhere, and some of them still are
considered honorease because they fall into whatever the category is.
(21:03):
I would argue, if in fact they genuinely think that
this doesn't fit in robotics and drone, that perhaps what
needs to happen. First of all, I disagree that that
isn't a valid answer. I reject that, But if you
have to go with that, I would say there's a
very real need to create a category specifically for health
(21:24):
and sexuality that is called for that. I think because
these products do exist on the show floor, like again,
mostly geared with men in mind at least at some
in some way, shape or form, and if they're if
those are allowed, I cannot understand what the justification is
(21:45):
for denying this other one. Right, And this kind of
gets to that bigger issue that's not This isn't a
tech issue. This is a culture issue of viewing women's
sexuality and sexual pleasure as being taboo. Yeah, this is huge,
It is huge. I have a kind of joined universe
(22:08):
of horror movies that almost all of them are male writers,
struggling with their fear of female sexuality. Oh sure, yeah,
I mean I love to talk about that one one day.
That would be I wish I could talk about that
on this show, Different past, it's a different podcast, but
as someone who loves horror movies and also loves the
social commentary that is in there, yeah, like, and I
(22:31):
think of ones that try to treat it in a
way how I'm going off on attention, but we'll get
back to it, don't worry. But I think of ones
to try and treat in a way that is more aware,
like it follows, I would argue, is a little closer
to being more aware because it's treating this, uh, this
idea of sexuality and almost like treating like a like
a paranormal um entity as almost like a sexually transmitted disease.
(22:54):
I think that that one is probably a little better
than say things like car which I think still is
not the worst the worst. Uh Why am I trying
to say it's not. It's not the absolute worst version
of viewing women's sexuality as being this kind of related
(23:16):
to this kind of thing of of either being unclean
or being taboo. But it's closer because you know, you've
got the whole menstruation aspect of carry that's in there. Anyway,
back to this other topic. So this is something that
is clearly think it's clearly seen beyond tech and for
(23:36):
women this is not a surprise. For for men like me,
you might think like, oh, yeah, I never really thought
of it that way, because again, it never directly affected me.
But this is this is something that is getting more
and more attention as women are able to assert themselves
more and more, and we're starting to see that trend
(23:59):
change where that we're seeing less suppression of that voice
I got. I would say that we're seeing more of
this despite to men, as opposed to because men are
giving women space. It's more that it's because women are
taking space, which is good but also sad that it
has to happen. Sad in the sense that you know,
(24:20):
guys like me aren't aren't making more room. But um yeah,
let's talk about that a bit. So the implication to
me is that if if a device is ultimately intended
to enhance the sexual pleasure of a man, that's fine, yes,
(24:41):
But if it was only for a woman, which you
could also says, since the message if it's to eliminate
the man's role in in providing sexual pleasure to a woman.
That's not cool. Yeah. That founder of DeCarlo, Laura Haddock,
(25:03):
she said, you cannot pretend to be unbiased if you
allow a sex robot in shape of an unrealistic female body,
but not a vagina focused robotic massager for blended orgasm. Yeah.
I think that's yeah, And I think that's pretty clear
now to be totally fair to all parties. Uh, the
(25:24):
ct A has not really commented on this very much.
In fact, I tried looking a lot to see about
any follow up from this, because there was a lot
of media attention in the immediate uh fall out of
the the announcement that oh, by the way, we were invited,
but then they revoked our invitation and I couldn't find anything. Um, So,
(25:46):
if there are any truly ethical or legitimate complaints on
the part of c t A, they have not been
shared publicly. So we are left to lean what we
can from the letters that were sent to Laura de Carlo,
and those are the ones that seem pretty damning with this,
(26:08):
And UM, I'm curious, what when I asked you to
do this and you started looking into it. What were
some of your reactions, Oh, not surprised. Um, it's so
much of in the words of past stuff I've never
told you co host host Caroline, the female orgasm is
(26:33):
more regulated in this country than almost anything, um, and
that we have a long history of that. Until like
the early nineteen hundreds, doctors and men in general in
Europe and the US thought women did not experience sexual
desires or pleasure. Yeah, that's recent, and that's where the
(26:58):
whole hysteria, genital massage UM, doctors complaining of cramped hands.
That's the only reason we have vibrators is because male
doctors we're tired of giving genital massages. UM. And at
the time masturbation was called self abuse, so you didn't
really have any other option. And you can argue that
(27:21):
a lot of these topics are still very largely taboo.
I mean, it's this is one of those things where
I think, only recently I would be able to have
this conversation with you and not feel like I was
doing something wrong. Um. And it wasn't because of any
intrinsic thing with the subject. It was rather this cultural
(27:42):
belief that has been instilled in me. You know, I'm
I'm a generation older, well not quite a generation, but
I'm older than you are any significantly older. Because we
had a conversation earlier that that were I had been
married for several years and you were talking about being
in middle school and I was like, well, okay, but
I come from a generation where it is still kind
(28:04):
of it's a foreign thought to me to be able
to have these sort of conversations frankly and uh and
not feel like I'm doing something wrong. But I've been
seeing that growing trend where people are embracing sexuality. They're
embracing this and there's sex positivity has become an enormously
powerful movement, and it still has a long way to go, obviously,
(28:25):
but it's miles beyond what it was when I was
your age. And uh, So this has been a sort
of a transformative experience that I've I've managed to to
witness in my own lifetime. I also, outside of my
work here at how stuff works. I'm a medievalist. So
(28:46):
for me, I think back to the rise of the
Puritanical era, which you know, you have had Catholicism, you
had the Protestantism, then you had the outgrowth of Puritanism.
From Protestantism and the Puritans. The Puritanical view was essentially
anything anything related to pleasure was considered a distraction from
your devotion to God and that therefore was sinful. And
(29:09):
a lot of that has gone into becoming the groundwork
for American morality and American social mores. Because again, the Puritans,
a lot of them were the people who fled England
from from persecution in England because everyone in England got
fed up with them, so they fled to America, to
the New World. And so while I wouldn't think that
(29:32):
American culture today is particularly Puritanical, there's still a lot
of holdovers in that in our culture. And I would
say that this particular story really played that out on
a specific stage, the tech stage. Yeah. So um yeah,
not to be t m I, but I didn't know
women could masturbate until college college, so we don't talk
(29:57):
about it, we're embarrassed to bring it up. But one
third of American women own a vibrator. And again, the
device that we're talking about is not a vibrator, but
it does have to do with sexual pleasure for female
non binary folks. So you can kind of extrapolate the
conversations we have around vibrators to this. Um. But if
(30:24):
you look at so going back to that whole marital
aid thing. Okay, so back in the eighteen and early
nineteen hundreds, sex toys, which by itself, if you think
about that term already says that this is kind of
a frivolous, wasteful activity, that this is not in any
way inherent to someone's health. Right, And you would hear
(30:45):
from more recent authority that sexual pleasure and health are
very much they're they're all part of the same umbrella. Yeah,
and not not like, oh, this is just for fun times,
like this doesn't mean anything, This doesn't contribute to your
well being in any meaningful way. Yeah. And I am
a huge advocate for sex education, such a huge advocate,
(31:10):
but I do think that the little sex education we
do get in this country, or at least in most
of the country, UM, it's focused on fearmongering. Of these
are the diseases you could get, you could get pregnant.
We should be talking about when it's when sex is
done well and people consent and your adults, it's pleasurable.
It should be pleasurable. We never talked about I can't
(31:31):
imagine hearing that, Yeah, that's what it's gotten to the
point where it's so taboo. I mean, it's not gone
to the point it's been this way for for decades,
for centuries, but it's it's at the point where if
you try and imagine that scenario, like you you first,
I'm sure you put yourself in your own shoes back
when you were in middle school or high school, and
(31:52):
you think, all right, well, I'm in health class and
we're hitting that sex said block of content, and you
imagine what your reaction would have been like had that
discussion started up. And the first thing you think is
everyone being immature and giggling and not being able and
blushing and not being able to like just wanting to
be anywhere else than where you were. And that's because
(32:14):
we have this cultural taboo against sexuality. It's not again,
it's not inherent in the subject itself that if we
were able, if we were able to change that, uh,
that set of more rais and beliefs and values and
our perceptions, that we could get to a point where
you could have this conversation. And I'm sure there's always
(32:36):
going to be someone who's from a household that is
more conservative or more restrictive or whatever. That still feels
like this is an inappropriate or uncomfortable topic. But we
could get to a point where you can have that
sort of conversation. I think it's a very important conversation
in the in the wake of all the stories we hear,
(32:59):
many of them the text fear of harassment and worse,
a lot of that deals you could trace that right
back to a lack of education, which leads also to
a lack of empathy. And uh, you get this this
uh reinforced sense of entitlement, especially among straight dudes. You know,
(33:21):
they everything in our society establishes the straight dude as
the norm, and then everything else is a deviation from
the norm, and the norm gets everything and the more
deep you deviate from the norm, the less you get.
So as the norm, you have an expectation for sexual pleasure,
You have an expectation to get it when you want it,
(33:42):
from who you want it. This is me making like
the most extreme case for that. But that that that's
kind of the problem we have to tackle, and again
one that ends up being illustrated by this case we're
talking about. I know that we're arranging why and follow
for tech stuff. But the important thing for me is
(34:03):
one it relates back to the specific story and what
happened to It relates back to the concept of inclusion
and diversity in technology in general. We want more women
to get into those fields. Everyone benefits when you get
a more diverse level of expertise and perspectives into any industry,
(34:24):
not just technology. UM and that I know that there
are a lot of women who listen to tech stuff,
and I want them to know that, like, I'm totally
on this particular train, like I am not. I don't
want anyone to get any mistaken belief about where I
(34:45):
stand on this um, which means that I'm going to
get a billion tweets telling me that I'm preachy again.
But that's okay. I don't mind. I don't mind being
preachy about this. Yeah. I think this is a good
topic to get those kind of tweets about. Yeah yeah,
as opposed to some of the other ones that I mean,
like when I get real mad about Android versus Apple.
That's that's kind of kind of minor in comparison. Jonathan
(35:08):
from the Future again, jet packs are awesome. It's time
to take another quick break to thank our sponsor. Now
what do you think what do you think ct A
should do? Let's say that you you're brought on as
(35:29):
a as an advisor, like they're a consultant. C t
A brings you in there, like Annie, we're in a mess.
We we did the stuff. The optics are terrible. Everyone
is is saying that we're sexist and misogynist and there
there's gender bias. What should we do to fix it? Well,
(35:49):
I assume there's no time machine invented, though if it
had been, I'm sure would have gotten a best of innovation.
That's true, that's true. I feel like at this point,
since CS is over, they're going to have to think
about what they're going to do, the steps are going
to take for that is wild that we're talking about, Um,
(36:13):
what what can they do to get not only more
women to come to the conference, but more female or
non binary companies or technologies to exhibit there. And like
you were saying, I think that's a great idea for
health and sexuality to have its own right um, But
(36:36):
I do think on top of that there needs to
be some kind of public because, like you said, we
don't really know where c t A stand UM, so
make some kind of public statement saying we were wrong
to do this, or either this is why we did this,
(36:56):
this is why we thought we should this is a
thing that we should have done, some kind of clarity
around it. Here are the steps we're going to take
so that we can be more inclusive and we can
be an environment that does welcome innovation from everyone. Yeah.
I think if you don't do that, then the danger
(37:16):
you run into is saying, oh, all this inclusion that
you're talking about, this fifty fifty split of keynote speakers,
it's all for show and you don't actually mean it,
Like you're responding to the perception but not to the
actual problem. And doing what you're suggesting shows that, oh, no,
(37:37):
we recognize that there are there are hurdles to overcome,
and we are dedicating ourselves to actually doing that. I
agree entirely. I think I think they need to say
either we were in the wrong or we don't believe
we were in the wrong, but we do believe we
did it the wrong way. Right, Like, here's here's what
(37:59):
here's also leave why we made the decision we made,
but the way that it was communicated and the way
it uh it unfolded was wrong, and we are responsible
for that. You cannot blame Laura de Carlo for their
reaction because they got an award and then they got
it taken away. That is listen, that's that's Charlie Brown
(38:22):
going to kick the football and the football gets pulled away. Right,
you don't do that. It's not cool. And and beyond that,
the denial to exhibit like that's still to me, that's
like the thing that I can't get past the most.
Like the award I think is bull hockey. What what
word am I going to use? Um? I think that's nonsense.
(38:45):
I think the I think resending the award is nonsense. Uh,
but I think the denial of exhibiting at all is
like I can't understand unless you go with that initial
response they gave where they think it's up seen, and
that's what has to change. Yeah. So, um, I'm glad
(39:07):
that we're able to have this conversation. I am sad
that it is necessary. Yeah, I mean that's generally, I mean,
come listen to stuff I've never told your listeners. So
that's kind of what I can't believe we have to
talk about this right now, But we do yeah, well,
I can't even imagine, like I've had this. Actually, this
also tells me that I should have had you on
(39:28):
numerous times before because I've covered other topics like I've
covered topics. Google had the infamous sexual harassment issue that
that you where you had women organizing so that they
could do a walk out and protest because of this stuff.
And and you know, for the longest time, Google was
(39:49):
looked at as a fairly benevolent company. That has obviously
changed over the last i'd say five years, but you know,
for a long time their official model was do no
do no evil, or do not don't be evil. I
think was specifically was don't be evil. By the way,
that has not been their motto for at least five
years exactly. So I will definitely reach out to you
(40:11):
to talk about these kind of things in the future.
But yeah, I agree entirely. This is something that there
there's an opportunity here to address a problem and to
make an improvement and to set up twenty twenty so
that these these sort of products can take their rightful place.
I mean, I also read a great interview where they
(40:32):
were talking with Laura Haddock about the possibility what if
c e S were to create a show space where
all the the sex toys and and marital aids could
exist and maybe it's apart from everything else. And she said, well,
we have those already. We have those kind of trade shows.
(40:52):
Those trade shows exist. What we're asking for is a
seat at the consumer electronics table where we're not treating
this as a taboo subject or something that needs to
be behind closed doors or that that you know, oh
you have to go behind the curtain at the video
store to go check that out, like because that, again,
(41:14):
it already sets the stage that this is a taboo thing, right, Um,
so I agree with that. I think I don't think
I'm ever going to reach a point of maturity where
I'll be able to walk through the show floor without
maybe blushing quite a bit. But that's because of my
own personal hang ups and the fact that I went
way too long before getting uh semi woke. But that's
(41:39):
my own personal failing, not anyone else's sure. I do
want to throw in here that sex toys are estimated
to be worth about thirty billion dollars. That's a lot
of money. Yeah, that's a lot of money to pretend
like no one does it. It is yeah, to put
it behind the curtain, yea, to sit there and and
(42:01):
and say like like, well, I mean, come on, how
how important could this industry be? Look, when you're starting
to throw around billion with a B, you're talking, you're
talking a serious industry. So um, thank you Annie for
agreeing to be on the show and to have this
conversation with me. I greatly appreciate it. I was. I was.
(42:21):
I remember when I first walked up to you and
I wanted to approach you about the subject, and I
literally I was like, I have no idea how this
conversation and Annie, to your credit, you were like, totally,
let's talk about it. Thank you very much for asking me.
I've this has been a great conversation. I could, Um,
I could talk about this a lot. And that's perhaps
(42:44):
why I am on a podcast that does that. Yeah,
and I hope that if you guys over at stuff
Mom never told you cover topics like this. I can't
wait to hear them because I want I really want
to hear your full perspective. UH that show obviously you
you've developed your own uh structure and tone, and it's
(43:04):
it's a very special show. A very important show. And
you know you're able to balance rage and humor in
a way that I greatly admire. Thank you. It's a skill. Yeah,
I know, the fact that you aren't just constantly going
around and punching everybody is a phenomenon to me. I'm
I'm amazed. Thank you, You're welcome. I don't get complimented
(43:27):
on not punching people enough. I also just want to
say thank you because I like my face not punched. Annie.
So where can people find all of your work? In
case they are not familiar. You can find me over
on Stuff I've Never told you, And you can also
find me on Saver, which is a podcast about food
(43:47):
and travels a little bit lighter but not always formally
called food stuff formally called food stuff. Yes, um, and
I'm assuming that most people who listen to this are
pretty uh they know what to do in technologically. Well, yeah,
so you can. You can find it on Google. Um,
you find on the I Heart radio app. I think
we're legally obligated to say that, are we need to
(44:08):
get the time, but yeah, come on over. We have
conversations like this all the time. Fantastic Annie, Thank you
so much, And guys, if you have any questions, maybe
have follow up questions about this episode, Maybe you have
suggestions for other topics. Maybe you heard this and you
thought this was really interesting. I want to hear more
on this line of topics. Then let me know. Even
(44:29):
if it's not something that tech Stuff should tackle. I
can certainly hand it over to Annie so that she
can look into that, or maybe who knows. You never
know what will become the next mini series episode. That's true.
Thing like, we are constantly on the lookout for possible
podcast topics that may not fit in any existing show
but might be a great, let's say, ten episode series.
(44:53):
So if you have something where you're like, I really
want to hear, maybe like a full series about the
history of the inner section between sexuality and technology, that
could be phenomenal. I am not the right person to
do that because I will at some point just end
up blushing so hard I pass out. I'll come back anytime. Yeah,
I'll be happy to hand the baton to you. But
(45:15):
that might be an excellent mini series. But if there's
anything else along those lines, you should send me an email.
Let me know the addresses tech Stuff at how stuff
works dot com. You can check out the website that's
tech Stuff Podcast dot com. You can find all the
archives there, as well as other ways to get in
touch with me. Don't forget to pop over to the
merchandise store that's t public dot com slash tech stuff.
(45:37):
Every purchase he make goes to help the show, and
we greatly appreciate it. And I'll talk to you again
really soon for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Is that how stuff works dot com. Two