9 to 5 with Sophie Lichterman

On this unlocked Patreon aka Matreon bonus episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Sophie Lichterman aka producer of the Bechdel Cast chat about 9 to 5! P.S. Please listen to Jamie's new podcast about Cathy comics, Aack Cast! 

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest
start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello everybody, and
welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,

(00:21):
my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our our
little podcast about the representation of women intersectionally in movies.
Today we are unlocking an episode from our may Treon
aka Patreon aka Matrion. It's an episode about the movie

(00:43):
nine to five with a guest Slash our producer Sophie Lichterman.
And the reason we are unlocking this episode is because
I am releasing a podcast for the next two months
every Monday called at Cast, which is all about the
Kathy comics by Kathy guys White. I am very excited.

(01:09):
It was also produced by Sophie Lichterrman, and it's kind
of just a look back at those comics. I think
that they're very generally misunderstood and mischaracterized as being anti
feminist or somehow regressive. When um, I've read every single
one and there's a lot of really good stuff in there.
It's it was. It ran for almost thirty five years, um,

(01:30):
and I am it's it's literally, well it's not as all.
It's it's because it ended ten years ago, but you know,
it ran for a long time, and and and it
grew and changed a lot with the times, much like you, Kaitlin,
thank you. And I think it is like I truly

(01:52):
have been fully read Pilt by Kathy comics. I think
that they're a really interesting gateway to discussion. So the
show starts by talking about, um, what happens in the
comics and the common misconceptions around it. UM, I interview
Kathy guys White, who made the comics every day for
thirty five years, and then it kind of takes a
turn into talking about how the comic comments on the

(02:14):
kind of jagged progression of feminism in America during the
times that it was coming out, which we talk about
all the time on this show. But it's a very
like day by day chronicle, so it's really interesting. Um.
There's an episode that is about how it comments on
diet culture and the pressures to conform to conventional beauty

(02:35):
standards and how that is a and a ridiculous expectation
thus act UH. There's a lot of commentary on consumerism.
There's a lot of stuff about how American men kind
of interpreted the games that women made during these years,
and there's just a lot of interesting stuff. It is
UH an imperfect comic for sure, and I try to

(02:57):
kind of fill in the blanks of what it's not
referencing and not discussing. And there's a lot of interviews
with um with artists. I interviewed UH fifteen boomer moms
about their their experiences and lives, and there's a whole
episode about boomers as well. So I hope you listen
to it. It's called ac cast because Kathy says act

(03:19):
a lot. It is spelled A A C K cast.
Or you can just search my name Jamie Loftus and
it will also pop up. The first episode came out
June and the rest of the episodes are going to
be coming out on Mondays. And so that is why
we are releasing five in eighties Working Girl, Deeply Flawed Classic.

(03:43):
That's my little spiel. I love it and I I'm
very excited to listen. At the time that we're recording this,
it has not come out yet. Come out yet, Just
so you know listeners, little peek behind the curtain. Um yeah, awesome.
So with that in mind, because this is a Matreon episode,

(04:04):
we didn't do the you know, our general show intro,
so real quick, this is our podcast in which we
examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. We use the
Bechtel tests simply as a jumping off point. That, of course,
is a media metric created by Alison Bechtel, who I

(04:26):
talked about quite a bit in the Cathy podcast. Yeah,
because she kind of, like, you know, provided at the
queer perspective that was never represented in the funny pages
of the newspaper in the eighties. They're sorry. It all
goes back to Cathy Baby Wow. Oh my goodness. Um. So,

(04:47):
it's of course a media metric in which are this
is our rendition on the Bechtel test. Two people of
any marginalized gender must have names. They must speak to
each other about something other than a man, and ideally,
for our purposes, it's a meaningful, narratively significant conversation. The bar.

(05:10):
We keep raising the bar basically and also according to
recent iTunes reviews, we've been fielding. Uh, we've we've think
we got a one star review because someone didn't like
the Bechdel Test and had never listened to our show
and also didn't seem to know what the Bucktel test was.
What a nightmayor um. So yeah, we're we're unlucky. This

(05:30):
episode from our Matreon. Uh, this episode was recorded in
when when was it was it? It was sometime in
twenty nineteen, okay um, And so we just wanted to
acknowledge that in this episode. This was prior to us
um getting more educated on ablest language as it pertains
to mental illness, and so we just wanted to do

(05:53):
a quick trigger warning that those words such as uh, crazy, stupid,
et cetera do appear in this episode. We've talked about
this many times on the show before, and we'll also
include links in this episode as well, because we always
want to make sure that we're acknowledging that that further
stigmatizes mental illness in many many ways, and it's something

(06:16):
that we have completely phased out of the show and
out of our own vocabulary, and we're always encouraging our
listeners to learn more and to make an active effort
to do so yourself. No better, do better. Links in
the description baby, I mean speaking of learning and growing?
Am I right? I mean I mean and and Um.

(06:39):
This episode is like a little more informal in tone
because it appeared on our Matreon. If this is if
this more kind of kick back feel to an episode
is fun for you, check it out. It's at patreon
dot com slash Backdelcast. We post two bonus episodes around
a theme each and every month. I think what was

(07:01):
the companion movie to Uh? It was Working Girl? Yes, okay, yeah,
so we did like Working Girl November like something like that.
So that's where we choose ridiculous themes and actually followed
through on them. So good for us, good for us, amazing.
It's currently the third Portman July, I think. Um, So

(07:26):
with that, enjoy this unlocked episode on nine to five
del Cast dun Dune. Yeah, I wanted to to stop

(07:49):
sacrifice all the momentum. High matrons, Hi matrons, it's eyes,
it's us. We're in the studio this time. Yeah, this
is actually it's it's kind of fucking with me because
I feel so formal and yet it's not because it's
a Matreon it is usually we do this in a bed,
right my bed, and uh, usually we're horizontal, Yes, just

(08:11):
lying down all you know whatever, just had lunch usually
and really really charmed life we're living right now. Um,
but today we we really took it upon ourselves to
leave Caitlin's house and here we are. Here, we are
in the studio and keep it loose. We're going to
keep it loose. Here's the thing. The reason that we're

(08:31):
in the studio is that we have a guest this
time on our Matreon episode of it No Um. She
is a friend of ours. She is the mother of
Anderson the Dog, and she works nine to five at
I Heart Radio as a producer of podcasts, including the

(08:54):
Beckdel Cast. It's so Bilich German. Ever heard of it?
Well we hi, guys, Hi, thanks for being here. I'm
so nervous. Don't be nervous. I'm going to be nervous.
Yeah we're mean. I think that, Yeah, we're I think
we've really proven ourselves to be untenable. Well, I just
know that if I funk it up, you're going to
fire me. Well you said, fuck you have to. Sorry

(09:16):
we are only non swearing. Um, here's my money and
also fuck that wow Okay, And she's off aggressively cursing
one minute in. I don't think we've ever had a
guest incriminate themselves really quite this fast, but um, please,

(09:37):
there has to be a first one. Thank you for
doing this. So we're talking about nine to five. Yeah,
it's a classic classic, and it's one of your favorite movies.
I think it's all right. It really just describes my ethos. Yeah,
I mean, I'm a huge Fonda fan, and who doesn't

(09:58):
love Lily and who doesn't love Dolly. It's just like
a great trifecta. It truly is. So when when did
you first see this movie? I first saw with my mom.
I don't remember exactly. It's been a while. I've probably
seen this movie like ten times. It's one of my faves. Um,
it's my ringtone. Good. You are currently wearing a nine
to shirt and one does for a nine podcast of course,

(10:22):
and then you're also sporting a nine to five sticker
on your laptop. Yeah, it's mostly just like a Jedi
mind trick for one. Jack O'Brien has not seen nine
to five so does not understand any of my passive
aggressive nine to five jobs. He kept, So we all
just watched it together in the studio and he kept
turning around, being like, is this an action movie? Because

(10:43):
he would like turn around during that scene where like
Jane Fonda is like chasing Heart with a gun or
like when with the lasso. You're just like, in a
way it is yeah, way, I mean wrong, pay wrong.
I can't know. Once you're here history my hear story story.

(11:06):
I didn't grow up with this movie. I didn't see
it for the first time until probably like a year
or two ago. I've seen it a couple of times
in that span of time, and I remember the first
chunk of it very well and the last chunk of
it very well, and then I never remember what happens
in the middle because it just gets so wild and

(11:27):
like fast paced and like things happen that you're like
that I was absolutely not expecting to happen. So I like,
I don't know what happens to my brain, but I
never remember until I'm like, oh my gosh, I forgot
how wild this movie gets. But you know it's it's
a fun romp and I can't wait to talk about it, Jamie,
what about you? This is my first time seeing this movie.

(11:49):
Somehow I don't really Yeah, I don't know why because
it's so thoroughly up my alley. And I've been a
Jane Fonda stand for a long time. Yeah, I don't know.
I didn't realize that this was how Jane Fonda and
Lily Tomlin like I first got tight because I'm a
grace and Frankie stands in every episode multiple times. Yeah,

(12:12):
I know. It's good to go back to see and
and this movie, Like, I mean, I think in most
regards like really holds up in a way that's like
almost kind of depressing because you're just like, oh, yeah,
these are all still the same things. When I say yeah,
I'm also like crying. Yeah, but it's really funny and
like really well done. And I man and and and
as Caitlin said, romp and half and a half, I

(12:34):
mean it's not a Fonda fan at this moment. I mean,
she's good chance right now you're listening to it, Jane
Fonda just got arrested. Jess got arrested first standing up
for the environment. She's like truly like one of the
like shining Hollywood examples of like using your privileged for
good and like backing it up that Jane Fonda she
arrests photo I definitely have a T shirt with that on.

(12:56):
But it's like one of my one of my favorite,
like which which arrested one when she had the clute
bangs you know what I'm talking. Yeah, and then we
have a sweatshirt with that with that on it. Oh,
that's cool. That story is super interesting too. Why she
got arrested was that when she was doing Vietnam War protesting. Yeah,
and then then the government was like she was drugs

(13:19):
and she's like, you literally just don't want me making
any more like protest speech. These are vitamins. I mean.
She was absolutely like dragged and abused by the media
and by fucking everyone for like decades and decades and decades.
She's the best Jane Fonda appreciation. If you haven't seen
that HBO documentary, please grow up. I gotta watch it.

(13:41):
Still so sorry. She also dated Ted You know, everyone
contains multitudes. Sometimes you date an evil billionaire and it's fine.
We don't know. The first the first time I heard
jan Fonda's name was when my mom was fully roasting
my dad for taking her aerobics class. When I really what,

(14:01):
your dad took Jane Fonder's aerobics class? Yeah, they did.
Like did like Jane Fondas aerobics and him and his
friend would go and my mom was like, your dad
used to do look, and I was like, this is
who's this woman that is making my father do aerobics
and like how do I meet her? And laugh? Yeah,
that's my first fond deciding. You know, do you remember
Carmen Electrics stripped Tease workout because I definitely had those

(14:23):
DV googling. We were a Richard Simmons family. Well, this
wasn't a family thing that my family wouldn't do it together,
gather on the television like my family did. He as
a solo artist who had broken away from my family
doing Carmon Electric strip tease. How did you wear this? Outfit?

(14:47):
Were pretty fun. I love workout video. She has like
in everything, she's like angelic and has like this like
I recognize these covers like early two thousands, like this
when she's in front of a bed. I support that.
I used to watch the Fitness Channel really early in
the morning before school. I used to do this workout
with someone, this this really buff guy named Glade and

(15:12):
then he'd be like it's called like wake up with Glad,
and then you just like walk around a lot and
then he'd be like good job, and he was like Slovenian.
And that HBO documented didn't didn't it say that Jane
Fonda didn't get a single dime from those Rubics videos either.
It was all like like as like, oh, I forget
I would have to fact, I think that that that

(15:33):
does ring. I mean, she like gives a lot away.
She and she also there's all these recent pictures of
her because she's gotten gotten arrested multiple times, were going
to climate change protests. Are you're talking about the one
where she's wearing the red jacket and her tongue is
out because everything I want that you can tell like
she's like get like getting dolled up and she goes

(15:53):
out in prentests and she gets arrested and it's all
very exciting. What a queen. Lily Tomlin is an icon
and there everyone's an icon, three of them Lily Tomlin icon.
She's great, Dolly Partoner is great. Lily almost didn't do
this movie, but her wife talked her into it. She

(16:16):
because she had just gotten done with I Forget what
film and was like super fatigued and had called and
been like no, sorry, like I'm adam, and then her
wife with her wife was like no, no, no, you
want to do this, and she's like, really glad she did. Yeah,
let's talk more about it, shall we. Let's do it
the recap if I may please? Oh my god? Is

(16:39):
that the format of the show. Yeah, we want to
make sure we keep okay. So we're in New York City.
Ever heard of it? No? Not not once? And Judy
Burnley that's Jane Fonda's character, is recently divorced and she
has just gotten her first ever job at a big

(17:02):
company called Consolidated. We meet Violet Newstead that's Lily Tomlin.
She shows Judy around. Judy meets roz Um, who is
not the receptionist from Monsters, Inc. Oh but what kind
of at the same time, is same energy? Same energy?

(17:22):
Has those I will kill you bangs? Actually? I think
I don't know. I would, I would I prefer ros
from Monsters, saying personally, yeah, that character's name also Rods.
Yeah about that? Yeah, wow, Maybe that's that's homage. Maybe
I don't know. Yeah, who knows. We can't go giving

(17:44):
Pixar too much credit. But Ross is on Violet's case
about something about the you know, desk decorations, dress code,
all this stuff like big crap that doesn't actually matter, right,
And then Jude meets her new boss, Mr. Hart, who sucks.
He's a piece of ship. He's a sexist pig. We

(18:07):
find that out right away. And then she also meets
Dori Lee that's Dolly Parton Mr Hart's assistant. And there's
a rumor going around among the women in the office
that Dori Ley is sleeping with Mr Hart. Lies. It's lies.
We find out what's really happening is that he's in
love with her, and he is sexually harassing her on

(18:29):
the regular, and he's turning him down consistently, and like
in ways she shouldn't have to. He says he's in
love with her. It really is just like trying to
forcefully attack. He's like exerting his power over her the
way that you know many powerful men do. Right. He
offers her money, he's like all going her. There's a

(18:50):
lot of like p o V shots of him, you know,
like objectifying her, dropping pencils and just being all the
slimy things. Right, but no one knows this truth quite yet. Egotistical, lying, hypocritical,
bigot that's Mr Hart. So Judy gets started at the office.

(19:11):
She's struggling a lot at first. There's this big Xerox
machine mishap, and Mr Hart yells at her and makes
her feel like an idiot. To be fair, he probably
doesn't not to use that ship doesn't know it at all.
He doesn't know how to do anything. If you haven't
had a panic attack because of like office equipment, or
have you even had a job. Yeah, I've been in

(19:32):
tears over making copies. Um. But she pretty quickly thinking
I was like, well, I just want to have a
dark place for a second. But Judy pretty quickly gets
the hang of things and Dori Ley is reaching out
to her and trying to be friendly. Um. But because
Judy believes this rumor about Doriley sleeping with Mr Hart,

(19:55):
Judy brushes her off and just generally no one is
taking Doriley seriously. Meanwhile, Mr Hart steals one of Violet's
ideas about color coding the accounts to improve efficiency, and
he takes credit for it, but Violet doesn't do anything
about it because she's up for this promotion and doesn't
want to ruffle any feathers. But it turns out that

(20:17):
she does not get the promotion. Mr Hart gave it
to a man who Violet has five years seniority over
and trained him. So this is like, this reminds me
of so so many stories that my aunt would tell
me about, like working for the government. Like it's just
that whole character just like exude my aunt, Like I mean,

(20:40):
I don't think she subscribed to the Matron, but she
retired this year like early because she was just like
fucking done being passed over by loser's name Marty, who
were like being promoted. It's just like, yeah, horrible man.
And then Heart tells Violet that the company needs a
man in this position and that clients would rather deal

(21:03):
with a man when it comes to figures, and you know,
he gave the promotion to a man because he's got
a family to support, which is still used today to
justify promotions all the time. So frustrating. And then Violet
gives this great monologue about demanding respect and she's not
his girl, right, yeah I love it, which I'm like, yeah,

(21:24):
you're not. And then it's also in this scene when
Dorley comes in and finds out that Mr Hart has
been saying that he and Doriley have been having an
affair hence where that rumor came from, which infuriates her.
And then we get another great monologue from Dorley which
ends with her She's like, I will shoot your dick

(21:45):
off if you ever step out of line again. What's
the line? It's like something about it. She's like, I'll
turn you from a rooster to a hen something something something,
it's she Yeah, she threatens to castrate him. It's very
that Lorena bob it before Lorna bob it with and
Judy becomes enraged also when one of her colleagues gets

(22:07):
fired for discussing her salary. So Judy, Violet and Dorley
I'll take the rest of the day off and they
go get drunk, and then Judy is like, we got
to do something about this. So they go to Dorley's
house and they smoke some weed that Violet has that
her son gave her, which is honestly one of the
best mother's son interactions. Yeah, I want to talk about high.

(22:32):
It was great. And she's like, she's like, not thrilled
about him smoking Papa. She's just like, your grandma would
be so upset if she knew you were doing this.
And then He's like, come on, like you just need
to do it, and then she's like, leave it in
my purse. She's not because she's not a regular. She's cool,
which is kind of cool because it's like there you said,
she's kind of set up as like the character who

(22:54):
is like a little more like by the book and
by and then you're like, oh, but she can fucking hang.
I like there, like you get all these like little
shades of like I don't actually like people. And their
son has hair i've ever seen. Oh my god, it's
flipping right and left. You're like, who is your stylist?

(23:16):
Refer me so much volume. So they're getting high and
they start fantasizing about getting back at Heart extended. It's
very satisfying. This is where I always forget these things
happen in the movie, that this this is the point
where I'm like, oh, things get really wild, and then

(23:37):
I just apparently black out because I never remember these
parts of the movie. But Judy is fantasizing about hunting
him down with a gun. Dorley fantasizes about like giving
him a taste of his own like very harassing medicine.
Violet fantasizes about poisoning him and then chucking him out
of a window. Yeah, it's and these are all like

(23:59):
minimum five minutes long a piece. They're very extended seque,
like there's animation. Oh my gosh, yes that there's that
Lily Tomlin scene where she's dressed up like snow white,
you know, like sure, yeah, you're like and there, like
is that hurt? Like it's I love it. It's great. Um.

(24:20):
So they all go to work the next day and
Violet accidentally puts rat poison in Mr. Hart's coffee, thinking
it's this sweetener. It looks the same, it looks as
in the same boxes, the same font can't be blamed.
But he doesn't drink it. But his chair that has
been acting up throughout the whole movie, does collapse out

(24:41):
from under him, and then he hits his head and
is knocked unconscious, and then Violet realizes what she's done,
and she figures the reason that he collapsed was because
he drank the poison, so she starts freaking out. They
all rushed to the hospital and Violet overhears doctors talking
about a guy who died from being poisoned, but she
doesn't know they're talking about someone else. So Violet steals

(25:04):
this man's body, thinking that it's Mr Hart, loads it
into her trunk, and then takes off with Doriley and Judy.
But then Doriley discovers that the body is not Mr. Heart,
so now they have to figure out what to do
with this random body. They get pulled over by the
cops and then they get out of that situation. They

(25:26):
take it back to the hospital and then just leave
the body there and it's so funny. Wants to give
us an escort and then she's like, it's great. Um.
So they return to work the next day and pretend
like everything is normal, except everything is normal because Mr

(25:46):
Hart is there and he's fine. And then the women
convene in the bathroom and talk about how he must
not have drank the poison and they should just forget
about the whole thing. But Ros who was like the
Eyes and Ears and the spy and the banks of
the office, she was hiding in one of the stalls
in the bathroom and overhears everything, so she tells Mr

(26:08):
Hart all the stuff that she heard. So then Mr
Hart blackmails do rely. He says if she comes to
his house that evening, he'll forget the whole thing. But
if she doesn't come over, he'll call the police and
tell them that the three women tried to murder him.
So do rely is like fuck you. She hug ties
him just like in her fantasy, and then like a

(26:31):
boss first of all, yeah, and then Judy points a
gun at him, just like in her fantasy. And then
they kidnap him and take him to his house, and
then they're like, Okay, what do we do now? They
try to figure out if they can dig up any
dirt on him to blackmail him, and they figure out
that the Ajax account that he's been working on is
completely fraudulent, but they can't prove it until they get

(26:54):
the invoices from the company, which will take four to
six weeks, so they have to keep him tied up
in his home. Luckily, his wife is a way and
also his wife who is like the stuetest woman. Oh,
I thought she was super nice. She's sweet and gullible, yes,

(27:16):
also known as stupid. Well, I see, I kind of
disagree on that. I I thought that that was like
a little subversion where I think usually when you see
a boss's his wife, there's either no personality or she's
like jealous, Like when she walked in to see like
Dolly Parton's character, I thought she was going to be like, hello,

(27:36):
do you know because I feel like that's the easy choice.
Not saying that that's the most brilliant, inspired choice, but
I was. I was actually scammed her way into like
a month long cruise. So she's actually a genius. And
she was like, oh, you want me to go stay
at a nice hotel for another week? Great? Yeah, sure,
so I take I take back the stupid. She's just

(27:57):
a's just scam goddess. She's she's lay. Yeah, she's just lazy.
She's lazy. Mosley also listen to that podcast. It's really good.
Do it. So while he's tied up and away from
the office for these several weeks, Judy Dorley and Violet
makes some positive changes around the office, including radical radical

(28:22):
stuff and equal pay policy. They install a daycare center,
and there's also like an alcoholic rehabilitation program. Shout out
drunk feminist icon Margaret. I love Margaret. She was like
at a girl yeah. Um. But then Heart finally manages

(28:43):
to get loose and he covers his tracks with the
A Jack's account and he takes the three women into
the office, ready to call the police and wrap them out,
but just then the chairman of the board, Mr. Tinsworthy
Sanders shows up and praises Mr Hart for all of
these positive changes that have been implemented and honest original spices.

(29:09):
It's like, I just love this orange and yellow furniture. Yeah,
this is great. You're just like, yeah, sure. And then
Mr Tinsworth he wants Heart to work with him in Brazil.
So Heart leaves. They've gotten rid of him, and they
celebrate and they're like whoa, And that's the end of
the movie. Let's take a quick break and then we'll

(29:31):
come right back and we're back. So there's a lot
to talk about with this. Oh boy, this is a
fun this is a fun chat. Yes. I feel like
maybe for this movie it might even be best to
start with like a little bit of the history behind

(29:53):
how this movie, how this movie is, this, why this
movie exists. It's like, I think for this time you
kind of trace a lot of successful female driven comedies
back to this movie as kind of like the golden
standard that women want to see themselves reflected on screen.
And we will get into the whiteness of the women

(30:14):
that we see reflected on screen. But just to kind
of start, I mean, I don't think that you wouldn't
have a working girl without this movie. You wouldn't have
the first Wives Club. About this movie, It's just like
a lot of this definitely got a trend started because
it was so successful. It made This movie made its
budget back ten times. It had a ten million dollar budget,

(30:35):
made over a hundred million dollars at the box office.
What twenty highest grossing comedy film of all time. It
was the second highest grossing film of that year, right
behind the Star Wars movie of that year. I ever
heard of the Star Wars Like it's fun, Like, it's

(30:55):
huge that this movie did. This movie that started three
women with out like an actual romance storyline too, which
is amazing. It's and it's I mean, it's a feminist text.
It's white feminism, but it's like feminism. It's it's you know,
a narrow scope of feminism, white second wave. It's like, yeah,

(31:16):
I have friends at work, but it's like but it's
definitely like a touchstone in like making room for more
inclusive texts. Right, I mean, what other movies around this
time or even since then, Because there haven't been that many,
but are about like a group of women who are
fed up with their sexist boss and then like take

(31:38):
him down and then also implement positive changes in their workplace.
They like low key almost unionized, but I feel I
I would imagine that they got like studio notes of like, well,
don't be too explicit about the unionization stuff, but that's
pretty much what they do, right, Yeah, they just aren't
allowed to say. But yeah, I mean is like there

(32:00):
there's a lot of cool stuff and and I think
that it wasn't so this was like Dolly Parton's first
starring vehicle, so you were. My favorite fact about this
this movie is that Dolly Parton negotiated in her first
movie contract that she would not do the movie unless
she did the theme song, which is so fucking cool.

(32:22):
It's amazing. She's like, listen, listen, Jane, I'll do your
little movie and this song fucking slap it's my towne
number one, Like it's good still and like that. Well,
I'll take us through the lyrics in a bit, because
their radical lyrics. Also, Jane Fonda's production company was the

(32:46):
company that produced this movie. Jane Fonda was very much
a driving force behind getting this movie made, which, as
we know today still that like someone using their clout
to get a movie like this made is kind of
like one of the only ways to do it is
to have a powerful person strongly advocating for it. And

(33:06):
as it sounds like Jane Fonda did during the writing
process of this movie, like really let the writers go
the way that they wanted to go and make a
cool like and just gave them room. And the fact
that it fucking worked is so like it's it's exciting
that this you know movie got a lot of you know,
for the mistakes it makes, it made a lot of

(33:27):
progress in space and it makes me happy. It's a
pleasant watch. It's very pleasant. It's very fun. It's directed
by a queer director, queer icon, Colin Higgins, who is
perhaps most famous for writing Harold and maud Um, but
he also wrote He continued to work with Dolly Pardon

(33:48):
after this. He also wrote The Best Little hor House
in Texas. Yeah, and he directed it as well, And
so he co wrote and directed five. He is. I mean,
he's like a lot out of people, I guess like
Judd Apatow frequently cites him of an influence which we
can't hold against him. And then he passed away at
forty seven due to AIDS complications. Um So he had

(34:11):
like a brief bit like incredible life, like made these
three extremely iconic. And then his co writer, her name
is Patricia Resnick. She's still working writer today. Um she
started out working with Robert Altman and and continue to
write her own features after working on Three Women, which
I've never seen. But imagine three women in a movie.

(34:35):
I don't understand. Um So, because you know she worked
on three women, She's like, now I have an idea
for three women. And but but she wrote it as
a drama, and then Jane Fonda read it and was like, oh,
I liked this story, but I think it should be
a comedy. And then Colin Higgins came in did a rewrite,

(34:56):
and then they bullied Lily Tomlin into joining and did
and thank goodness they did. Yeah. It's it's like, there's
a cool It seems like the collaborative process of of
this movie was cool and it was mostly driven by
women and queer people. Awesome. I'm just great helpful context
as always, Jamie, thank you so much. Let's get into

(35:19):
the story. The characters um, so we've got three iconic
characters here and they're all up against this like shitty,
horrible sexist boss Mr Hart. Something I liked about the Mr.
Hart character. I mean, there's nothing to like about it,
but the but the way he was written was I

(35:41):
feel like we have talked about this on the Matron
specifically a lot, but just when there are villains who
are abusive to women that are so overdone that like
male audience members couldn't see themselves in them at all,
which kind of just removes like, well, what's the point
of doing it? Um, But I don't think that they did.

(36:02):
I feel like this is like, I mean, some of
it's kind of like played over the top because it's
a comedy, but I feel like the things that he
does are so recognizable, and I'm sure that like if
a man in like audience, they you know, he could
see his own behavior in that. But I mean I
did like that there seemed to be some care into

(36:24):
like making him a character that hopefully, you know, a
man could be like oh you know, oh fuck. It's
like also like a really good actor too, Yeah, I
really like that actor such a good job with this.
Um but yeah, like some of the things that Mr
Hart does, like right off the bat that clue us

(36:44):
into him being a sexist pig, But are Jamie's You're
saying familiar enough that like these things have all been
said to us and all women. He tells Judy right
when he first meets her that she's pretty in and
he comments on other women's looks in the office, saying
how he doesn't find many of them to be attractive.

(37:07):
And then he goes right Violet and she just gives
him the stinky um. But you feel like it's like
subtly implied, Like it's not or not even subtly, but
it's implied that he's part of the reason he's not
promoting her is because he has no sexual interest in
her and like that, But it is also like really
okay with taking credit for all of her ideas of
her ideas. Yeah, that's one of the first things we

(37:29):
see him do too, with the color coding. Yeah, he's like,
oh no, I'll have to like read more about this.
And then in the next scene he has taken it
to his boss, his boss, and and his boss is like,
oh wow, this is great, like good job, and another
very realistic thing happens where Violet sees this happening right

(37:49):
in front of her. She's like, he just stole the
idea and took credit for it, but because she is
up for a promotion, she can't do anything about it.
And this is such a familiar situation for women because
like if we try to speak out or stand up
for ourselves, we're seen as being difficult and then you know,
we get fired. Yeah, you can't really the it's really

(38:13):
hard to advocate for yourself. Yes, it's I mean it
was really really really well done where yeah, you can
just like sort of and it's like so well acted
by Lily Tom went to where you just see her
like choosing her battles and in her face. Yeah, she
doesn't have to sit. It's yeah, and that's like a
thing that yeah, like happens, has happened to all of

(38:35):
us at some point, happens all the time, and it's like,
I don't know, like the movie kind of plays it
smart and and shows so many subtle things that build
up that is like every woman who's ever worked in
an office or it really just existed in the world.
He also like he's like, oh, I want to buy
my wife something Violet go shopping and she's like, that's

(38:58):
not in my job description on not going to shop
for you, and then he like interrupts her and he's like, oh,
you need to be a team player, blah blah blah. Yeah,
I definitely got asked to go pick up a old
boss is like tailored pants from Nordstrom in the middle
of the day once and it's it's like, where is

(39:19):
that in my Like no, low key? Two weeks ago?
Male director sent me out to get him coffee. I'm like,
I'm your head writer, Like what do you talk like
Like it's just like it's fucking infuriating. It's like, where
in my job description did you see lackey? Like it's
so weird? Yeah, no, it's uh And it's literally two

(39:42):
weeks great, great, So yeah, we progress just a fortnight
ago right here in Los Angeles, Californy. Ever heard of it?
Also so violent. Towards the beginning of the movie, she
talks about how rapidly heart Like rose up the ranks,
climbed the corporate ladder, and she's like, I remember when

(40:03):
he was a management trainee. In fact, I'm the one
who trained him. Meanwhile, she's been there for twelve years.
She does have seem to have some like she's the
senior supervisor person, but it seems like she's so qualified
and so capable and could exactly but because she's a woman.

(40:23):
And this gets pretty explicitly stated by Heart in that
conversation when he tells her that she didn't get the promotion,
and there's the whole thing about like, well, you know,
he's a man and he's got a family to support,
and she's like, I have four kids. But you know,
there's you know, the societal expectation of like men needing

(40:43):
to be the provider so they're more worthy of more money,
and it's so frustrating and doing the same job as
somehow harder for them than it is for a woman.
That was I like literally couldn't stop thinking about my aunt.
So I was like getting so mad because you just
see those little things that like your trainee being promoted

(41:04):
above above you, and like you're not allowed to say
anything about it, or just these fucking losers just hurtling
over you they can and no, like even when men
recognize in the office that it's wrong, they don't, they don't,
they don't let it happen. But the one get put
on projects, don't don't even they want to get their name,

(41:26):
they want to hurtle over you do. Like it's just
even though once that like you think are on your
side and then you're like, oh wait, you're slowly doing
the things that you're like every other man does or yeah, yeah,
I mean like all those workplace situations where you're like,
well that man, it wasn't explicitly horrible to me, so
I guess he's good. But it's like, but he would
sit through me getting harassed or like being treated like

(41:48):
ship and I guess because he didn't do it himself.
I'm not mad, Like it's just oh, listeners, you couldn't
see it, but all three of us just I rolled
in unison um. Something I really liked with Lily Tomlin's
character is you see we'll talk about her relationship with
her son as well, but like you see her it's
like that second shift mentality, which I feel like comes

(42:12):
up in a lot of like second way of feminism
stuff because it was so focused on women in the workplace.
But you see there's like a great shot of her
talking on the phone checking in on things at home
while also doing five things at work at once, and
it's just like she's doing it all deftly and capably,
and you're like, she shouldn't have to do this. Yeah,

(42:33):
none of the men in this office are calling to
make sure that their kids are getting places on time
and all this stuff. They can't do anything. They're like,
go get me a cup of coffee, Go get me
like gifts for my well, they like they delegate tasks
that no one should be doing at work to like
these capable women who should be spending time doing something else.

(42:54):
But he's like, go shopping for me, because women be shopping, right.
It's it's very shopping. And the Violet, I don't know violets,
like they're all three of them are amazing characters. I
was also like pleasantly surprised by I don't know, Like
the three main characters are all very they have very

(43:15):
distinct personalities, have very different approaches to the same I mean,
which you can tell in the minutes long Fantasy Secrets.
They have different approaches to how they would kill this man.
But I like, um, I liked that amazing scene where
you get a Lily Tomlin monologue and then a Dolly
Parton MODELO. Back to back where uh, Lily Tomlin is, um,

(43:40):
hold on, I think I've got don't call me your girl, right,
I'm your girl, I'm a woman. Do you hear me?
I'm not your wife, thank god, or your mother or
and but then she turns to do rely and or
your mistress right, So we all know that that is inaccurate,
petty wrong. But you see this moment where like Viole

(44:00):
clearly FUCKX up and gets it wrong, and then Dorley
comes to her own defense, and it's like, wait, is
that what people think is going on? And immediately Violet
believes her. It's not a question of like women are
not believing women in this movie. So I kind of
liked that there was an example of female character fucking

(44:22):
up and then course correcting immediately and like siding with
her female coworker and then they all banned together, and yeah,
that was I mean. And then it's so fucking great. Yeah,
like that's scene is incredible. So like, first of all,
I'm going home, Second of all, we're going to go
get a drink. Third of all, then we're gonna get

(44:43):
high in Plinn how to kill our boss. And then
Lily Tallan also uses that phrase pink collar ghetto at
the bar, which I thought was like again, just like
one of those things where I'm like, oh my god,
that phrase still comes up all the time. So like
the pink collar, I don't know if she was using
it in the exact same context, but like pink collar

(45:03):
jobs has been like a lot of I don't know,
I went through a phase where I was reading a
lot about it. Basically jobs that are given majority to
women and the benefits and pay are not fair. And
so like the most recent example where like pink collar
will pop up a lot is social media jobs, where
the majority of people in those positions are women. They're

(45:25):
not paid enough, they're not given enough benefits. Sometimes it's
just a contract job even when it shouldn't be. And
that's like another example of just like I mean, for
a long time, like teaching was a pink collar job
where like no one was getting paid enough. And even
now it's like my mom has to buy her own
school supplies for her own classroom, which is ridiculous whenever

(45:47):
you see a teacher doing a fundraiser, fucking give all
of your money to it. Um. But yeah, I thought
that that was cool, that like that phrase that is
like still a buzzy phrase right now is like comes
up too. I don't know. This movie is great. This
movie definitely has such relevance in today's time with everything

(46:07):
going on, and I wish it didn't. You know. It's
like this movie came and it's like almost that. Really,
I'm like, wow, we haven't really solved literally one of
these problems. Everything stays the same. Yeah, yeah, it's man, Wow,

(46:29):
there you go again. You owe us three more dollars?
What's worth it? Put it in the swear every but yeah, Jamie,
you were starting to talk about that, like the monologue
that Doraley gives where she is like yelling at heart
and like saying, I've like you've sexually harassed me for
the last time. I'm going to shoot your dick off

(46:50):
if you do it again. Like I wish I had
the actual text in front phenomenal writing. Are you guys ready?
I'm ready? Please, Okay, get your scummy hands off me. Look,
I've been straight with you since the first day I
got here, and I've put up Actually, I feel like
I should raise my voice an octave and do an accent, right,
it would be so it would be mean to Dolly parton.

(47:11):
I'm not gonna ta where nobody can emulate Dolly No,
and I'm not gonna try it. But and I've put
up with all your groping and oggling and hollow apologies
and chasing me around the desk because I need this job.
But this is the last straw. Look. I've got a
gun out there in my friends, and up to now
I've been forgiving and forgetting because of the way I
was brought up. But I'll tell you one thing. If
you ever say another word about me or make another

(47:33):
indecent proposal, I'm going to get that gun of mine
and I'm going to change you from a bishop to
a rabbi with one shot. And then you're just like,
oh my god, it's great. And then we stand in
each here and we feel that's the other thing. Oh yeah,
that's the other thing. I um, I didn't appreciate about
this movie. I think I'm like the first Watch. But
there are subtle ways, or maybe even not so subtle,

(47:54):
but ways that each character is set up that they
need the job that they have. Where Judy has just
gotten divorced and she was a homemaker, so she needs
to enter the workforce now to support herself, and another
like detailed was layered into that where he left her
for his secretary, which is part of why like Judy

(48:16):
is so dismissive of um Doriley whenever she's trying to
reach out and be friendly because she still thinks about
this affair that's happening and I want to touch more
in that just a moment triggered perhaps UM. So she
needs to support herself, so she's entering the workforce. Lily
Thomas character is a single mother of four, so she

(48:38):
needs to support her family and herself. Um. And then
Doriley says, you know, I need this job. So they're
all putting up with this horrible is just a home
playing good time. He's like as a musician, it seems
so you know he's an artist, you know, probably not
making much money. Their their relationship and you get like
one scene where you see them together there and unfortunately

(49:01):
the dialogue does not age very well because he's like,
smile for me more. But the message of what he says,
I like, what I was impressed by from that scene,
which was not smile for me, but is that he
listened to her and he believed that she was being
harassed and he wasn't like, you're making this up, which
I think again is like another easy thing that unfortunately

(49:25):
happens all the time. So it's nice to be like, Okay,
so he is saying smile for me, But it seems
like she was like happy in her marriage and like
had a support system that you're just like, well, that's lovely.
I like to think that when she becomes a country
western star, he's like her her backup time. He's in
her band and her band A star is born in

(49:48):
but not because a man helps her be starts because
she became a star on her own and lives laughing.
Because we saw this in Be Together and you Jamie
and Anna we're both crying and caitl and The're boasting
there like oh my fuck is this Hey you cursed?

(50:10):
I know I did. I'll put three dollars in the
sword Jock. I'll cry again. Yeah. So one of the
things that happens quick that was Bradley Cooper's actual dog. Okay,
so that's like the bassest vocal fry. It's just all

(50:32):
vocal fry. People complain about women's vocal fry. Have you
seen Bradley Cooper in A Star is born, they're like
Oscar nominated. Al right, sure, anyhoo. So one of the
things that happens in this movie that sucks to see

(50:54):
play out, but then it gets course corrected, like you said, Jamie,
but the women in the office don't doray because they
think she's having an affair with the boss. But what's
really happening is that she's being sexually harassed by her
boss and uh, he's spreading rumors that they're sleeping together.
So as soon as there's light shed on that, that's

(51:17):
when Judy and Violet are like, oh, that's all be friends.
You know, Sorry, we made assumptions about you, so we
could be like, oh, man, it's like women hating women
for like these petty reasons. But it's also like right,
like it's men pitting women against each other and then
figuring it out right. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that that

(51:37):
was like a cool example of like commenting on that too,
because especially in nineteen eighty where it might not I
mean even now, like it doesn't always occur. I don't know,
like now now I feel like it's almost like an instinct.
But in every case, like when I was definitely younger
and working in offices, and like male superiors quote unquote

(52:01):
will try to pit women in the office against each other.
I didn't always realize that that was what was happening.
And so having like a movie point that out directly
and then have them figure it out, get mad and retaliate,
you're like, oh, this is like almost a blueprint for
like what And like you said earlier, it was really
cool that like Lily Thomas character instantly believed Dolly Parton's character. Yeah,

(52:24):
and I was like, oh, this man is lying on
your name, Well fuck him all you three dollars. And
also let's last at him. And it also makes total
like sense unfortunately that Dory hadn't tried to discuss it
with any of the women in the office before because
she's like, well, you know, it'll just make my reputation worse.

(52:47):
It'll look like I'm coming, you know. And she kind
of has that conversation with her husband Dwane of like,
I don't know really what's going on, but everyone hates
me and I can't talk to anyone about it, Like
she there's no place I mean, you know, you can't
imagine that HR at this company or most companies would
be very helpful to her, and so it just yeah,
it felt like in a in a very like heightened movie.

(53:09):
Felt it was like a very realistic situation. And then
so much of that I like what I feel like
we talked about a lot of the same themes in
The First Wives Club where, which is clearly you know,
like taking a page from nine to five of like,
so much of this movie that's so much fun is
just the catharsis of like, you know, women in the

(53:31):
workplace still have it so rough. And again it's like
we are seeing upper middle class white women, um, and
they have it rough and soon so all the untold
stories of people from lower income backgrounds, of different racist sexualities, etcetera.
But but then you get to see them take this
like spectacular revenge that no one in real life really

(53:53):
can and it feels amazing. It is empowering. Someone's dick off.
I want to turn a return into a hen. Yeah, sorry,
I just tried to do an accent. I really apologize
for that. Everyone was tragically bad, but yeah, I mean,
just to piggyback off that conversation a little bit. This

(54:15):
is a very like white feminism movie. The characters that
are featuring this, like the the empowered women are all
middle class white women conventionally attractive. Uh, you know that
whole thing. Yeah, there are a few people of color
in the office, but they almost never get to talk.
Uh they talk about the white woman's predicament. Right, Yeah,

(54:39):
they're not really allowed to contribute anything to the story. Um.
We do see a black guy very early on who
works in the mail room, and he comments on how
he's never able to get promoted out of the mail
room because they keep bringing in outside people that may
have been deliberate commentary on like you know, white people
tend to get favor for promotions or jobs over people color. Um.

(55:03):
But it's so it's like just that one thing and
it doesn't get any further floor than that's the only
time you even see him, right, sucks. It's and that
that actor, his name is Ray Vit and two years
after this movie came out, he was murdered by the
l A. P. D. Oh my god. Yeah. And then
we have there's a black woman in the office named Betty.

(55:28):
She gets a scene with Lily Tomlin, but they're only
talking about Lily Tomlin and Betty is kind of just
reassuring her. And this is the scene where Violet is
accidentally putting rap poise in the coffee. Right. Um, so yeah,
it's like they're all very much there as supporting characters
and kind of background. There's another character I think her
name is Maria Delgado who gets fought. She's the one

(55:51):
who gets fired for disgusting her salary, but I believe
she gets re hired then whenever Heart leaves and then
they're like come back and like work part time if
you want too. Yeah. Other than that, there is really
no mind paid to people of color in this film,
and it's all about, you know, the attractive white women
in their struggles. Yeah. So, while this is like a

(56:15):
feminist text, it is not intersectional, but it does, you know,
pave the way for more intersectional feminist texts to be
made later on, and we are still waiting for are
they someone please fund them? And with that, let's take

(56:36):
a quick break and we will be right back and
we're back. Sophie touched on this earlier, but I do
think it bears repeating how remarkable it is that there
is not any romantic subplots in this movie that at

(57:00):
least that take up any minus thing at the end. Okay, yeah,
so so let's talk about Well, I think I want
to backtrack a little bit and talk about Duty's relationship
with her ex husband Dick, because he track suit track
suit Dick brown track track suit. I know it was
like what a choice the worst color is? Yeah. Anyway,

(57:23):
he keeps showing up places, stalking her. He's stalking her.
He's like, yeah, I've been chasing the joint because they're
all staying at Heart's house like to like monitor him.
He's so creepy. And then dude, Dick is like, why
I think I might want to get back together, like
let's hang out, And she's like, no, you can't be here,
like I'm house sitting, like please leave, and he's like,

(57:45):
but I've been chasing the joint. You're here alone, right? Yeah?
Crazy how casually he delivers us like he's say, yeah,
of course I've been spying on you. Shut up. You're like, sir,
You're like, excuse me, sir, that's a crime. That yeah,
And like that doesn't get challenged at all. But I mean,

(58:08):
I don't know if if like Judy was like, well
we used to be married, so you know, he hurt.
I think it just shows like and like for a
second that you think she's going to like she was like, yeah,
let's have lunch, and you think that that that I
was really worried that they would like get back together something.
I think they're just trying to show how inexperienced she

(58:32):
is and like naive just yeah, Like, but what I
like about it is that like very quickly after she
shows that she finds her strength again. Yes, and then
at the end she yeah, she you know, cusses him out,
screams him out, She's like, I'd never get back with
you in a million years. And it's like and she's

(58:55):
you know, it's very over the top, but it's a
good like, it's a good moment for that character, and
especially where that's I feel like that doesn't First Wives
Club kind of funk that up too, Yeah, because the
Midler character gets back with her her husband, right, So
so this what I mean, like if that had to
be there, which is I didn't have to uh, and

(59:16):
then there were other ways to characterize her, right, But
at least it's like well played with the way it concludes, right, Yeah,
he's basically introduced as an obstacle for her to like
be like go away. You're like ruining this. You know,
we've kidnapped our boss and you're messing this up, messing

(59:37):
up our operation track suit, right, And then the way
the story concludes, the whole movie concludes, is they've gotten
rid of Heart. The three of them are like, who
we run this company now? Uh? And then there are
like title cards of what happened to everyone. First we
see Violet, she gets promoted to like vice president. She

(01:00:00):
essentially gets Heart's job. Now yeah, because she's like so
good at keeping her cool under pressure. All you have
to do is poison someone and you finally get that
promotion I've been waiting for. Yeah, just a hot tip,
yeah yeah yeah. Then we see um, Judy's title card
and it says that she falls in love with and
gets married to the Xerox representative, which is like a

(01:00:20):
callback to like the whole Xerox mishap thing, which it's like, oh,
but now she loves Xerox so much that she's fucking
the Xerox man. Not my favorite job, don't like it
didn't need to be there. Um. And then we get
you know, Dolly becomes she quits the company and becomes
a country and Western singer, and we're like and then

(01:00:40):
the other there's another problematic one where Heart's title card
is he was abducted by a tribe of Amazonians in Brazil,
which you know perpetuates the negative stereotype that indigenous people
are savage images. Yeah, so that's not good, but at all.
I do like though that there's no romantic subplot um

(01:01:03):
because there's kind of no room for it and no
need for it in this story. Right it's a it's
a fucking revenge fantasy. And I feel like, again, that's like,
would that have been possible if there weren't mostly women
and queer people in the room? I would guess not probably,
I would gets in that there is one passage I

(01:01:26):
wanted to bring up. So right after they have kidnapped
him and they're realizing that they can't just like keep him,
then when they decide they wanted what they want to do,
because Violet, what could we used to keep Heart quiet?
Judy blackmail? Violet blackmail? Oh that's great, but what could
we get him on? Judy a sex candle, take a

(01:01:47):
picture of him with a prostitute? Totally? No, who would care? Violet,
She's right. Heart would simply buy up all the copies
and distribute them as Christmas cards. Yes, so this is
shaming of sex work start work not cool? Uh taste
lady joke. Yes, like let's hire a prostitute and exploit

(01:02:09):
her in order to get it's like, yeah, not's not
that's you know, very nineteen eighties of its very like
white feminism, privileged bullshit. We don't love it. We don't
love it. I wanted to share some quick quotes about

(01:02:30):
just again just like going back into the writing process
for this, because it's very interesting to me. Where Jane Fonda.
I mean, she has like a pretty storied history of
fighting for workers rights. She's from a very privileged background.
Um and so a lot of times when she would
try to make these stories about not extremely rich people,

(01:02:51):
she would have to do research on them, which I mean,
what a what a trial. But but she's talked a
lot about the process of like figuring out how to
play these characters, and she like spoke to a lot
of women who worked as secretaries. Uh. And she had
the following to say, um, and she said she also
specifically focused on women who had begun working later in

(01:03:13):
life due to either being divorced or being widowed, which
I think was a lot more common in the eighties
than it is now. But she said, quote, what I
found was that secretaries know the work they do is important,
is skilled, but they also know they're not treated with respect.
They called themselves office wives. They have to put gas
in the boss's car, get his coffee by the present
for his wife and mistress. So when we came to

(01:03:34):
do the film, we said to Colin Higgins, the director, Okay,
what you have to do is write a screenplay which
shows you can run an office without a boss, but
you can't run an office without the secretaries on quote.
And that's I think this is my favorite part of
the movie. When they've kidnapped Heart, tied them up in

(01:03:54):
like s and m gear in his house using also
like the garage garage door opener that we see Lily
Tomlin installed earlier in the middle fixed it on her own. Yes, yes,
while being while having a serious conversation with her son
about pot, about pot and about how she gets mistreated
at work. And yeah, She's like, uh, I'm a mother

(01:04:18):
of four and I just installed my garage door opener
and he's still calling me his girl. We're like, so
they've kidnapped the boss. They've tied him up. He's you know,
wearing a collar stuff like that. Um, And they realized
that no one ever actually wants to see the boss
face to face at work, so like except for ros

(01:04:41):
who is a traitor. Um. But they're like having a
pretty easy time of like him not being there. So
they use this opportunity to implement all these changes radical
Like yeah, and I almost wanted to see a little
bit more of it, Like you get paid maternity leave
and like you know, keep going and keep insurance for everybody,

(01:05:04):
free care, split, split work time, flexible hours. It's like
that wasn't the stat that they increase productivity by six weeks.
It's like what, Yeah, it's it's very impressive, so awesome
to see that. You can tell, like the morale around
the office is much higher. What kind of stinks about

(01:05:26):
this is that they do all this stuff and then
the chairman of the board comes in thinks that heart
was responsible for all these changes. No one corrects him,
because if they did, they'd have to be like, yeah,
we did it because we had kidnapped our boss. Um.
But he still gets like the credit and the promotion
for these positive changes in this increase of efficiency, the

(01:05:48):
women right by Colonel standards and the women don't get
any recognition. Is it realistic? Yeah, but you know it
just kind of sucks to that that's like sort of
how that's how the movie ends, where they don't get
any recognition. Still, that was a bit of a bummer.
But it's also like I said, hyper reo, um, Jamie,

(01:06:09):
did you want to get into the song at all? Oh? Well,
I just wanted to mention. I mean just that even
like the song nine to five has some very subversive
and cool lyrics that sometimes you miss because you're like,
it's such a slapper. But she, I mean, she clearly
is like writing about what actually happens in the movie
that she references. They just use your mind and they

(01:06:31):
never give you credit referencing when Lily Tommin's idea has taken.
You would think that I would deserve a fat promotion,
want to move ahead, but the boss wants seem to
let me. It's just really good. Yeah, that's all I
wanted to say. Is just like putting out specific lines
that reference the movie and that are just like there's
not a lot of working women's empower. This is still

(01:06:52):
like the working women's empowerment anthembs, it's my ring down,
she's she's Sophie. Is it your ringtone? It's my He
was just really really like, it's my It's really fun
to hear it go off in front of people, see
their faces, especially ment um and then, uh, quick note

(01:07:15):
on the reception of this movie. It is now regarded
as a classic. It has been uh and and for
the most part, it got like generally positive reviews when
it came out. However, because in nineteen even more so
than now, the movie criticism community was really only old
white guys. Um. Even people who reviewed the movie well

(01:07:38):
would still diss it for the parts that they just
didn't understand themselves. Um, so of course you got your
boy Roderi Ebert. Well, he did give the film three
out of four stars, which is a lot for him. Uh.
He doesn't usually like to see women, and so this
is a thrill for us. But the way he talks
about it is very condescending. He says, quote it was

(01:08:01):
pleasant entertainment, and I liked it despite its uneven qualities
and a plot that's almost too preposterous. You're like, uh,
Jeane Cisco had like similar stuff. Variety said, quote although
it can probably be argued that Patricia Resnick and Colin
Higgins script borders on the inane, the bottom line is
it's fun, where like basically you don't get a lot

(01:08:22):
of critical praise for the story. You mostly just get like, wow,
Dolly Parton's a movie star, which is true, which is
still most of the articles about this movie is like wow,
this was a star is born. But even now there

(01:08:43):
there was like some fucking editorial like flame war, like
in because um oh I think I saw this, yeah
where where uh ninety five was like being screened by
the bf I British Film Institute and is just like
called in the description like a feminist classic. And then

(01:09:03):
someone at The Guardian wrote this long editorial man obviously
being like is it really a feminist text? And then
its turd and like that was two years ago. You know,
it's just like yeah, you did. We've moved on from
nine to five mentality, but it is a feminist text,
you don't know. I mean this movie was you know,

(01:09:26):
made into a TV series, made into a musical version
of the film, and you know it's like it's influential,
and like the Guardian guy who was who is the
author of that, I don't know, I don't care. Yeah,
the fact that this movie was such a commercial success
just goes to show like how starved people are for

(01:09:48):
representation for like female leed comedy movies or female led
projects in general. Like another thing I always appreciate is
a funny movie starring women. I love to see women
be funny. Lily Tomlin especially is like cracking jokes. She's
you know, yeah, I tore right through your memo and

(01:10:10):
it's a double entendreus larious. I know I know where
to stick it. Love that line. And then she's like,
I'm a doctor, why am I talking to you? Piss off?
And it does pass it back to test, but she's
screaming at a woman to piss off, just you know.
But it's man, it's it's so funny. She's so funny.

(01:10:31):
It's great. And Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin are both
over forty when they're filming this movie. You don't get
to see women in their forties really very much at
all in cinema. And again, similar to UM, I mean,
I think like a lot of the strengths and weaknesses
of nine to five are kind of identical to the

(01:10:53):
ones in First Wives Club where you're like, well, women
over forty do want to see themselves reflected and move
these and uh and it's not just white women too.
But um, you know again, where's the fucking movie? Um?
But this movie, you know it moved the dial, It
kept thinking like it. Yeah, it opened up a conversation

(01:11:15):
about sexism. And I just I love how like it's
about like women coming together who like share a common
motivation and a common interest in taking down this shitty
sexist boss that they have and like uniting for this
like progressive cause and like getting shit done. It just

(01:11:38):
makes it. Yeah, there's there's there's an article in stud
of Living that's like eleven things Dolly Parton taught us
in nine to five, And I think they're all really
kind of cool. It's like trust other women, confront your
problems at on, Always stand up for yourself. Sometimes you
just need to drink with your friends. Turnabout is fair
play at least in es. Uh, stand by your friends.

(01:12:01):
Always have your friends back. Sometimes you need to call
your friends on their mistakes. Commit to your plans with
your friends out of friendship stuff. Be honest with your friends,
follow your dreams like these are these are all. It's like, yeah,
I mean, you just don't see stuff like that in movies,
especially in Night and even sadly today, who well, do

(01:12:26):
you guys have anything else? I think those those all
the main points that I had. I think I just
I really and this is coming from someone who has
a panic attack every time they smoke weed. But I
just like Lily Tomlin like talking to her like teenage son,
being like, yeah, I don't really care if you smoke weed,

(01:12:47):
slipping in my purse. Like I feel like a lot
of like mother characters from that era would have been like,
marijuana is the devil, and She's just like, fuck it,
I'm gonna smoke one joint. Mall yeah, and she like
they just have so much fun together. I love that
scene where they're just like laughing, especially if you like
Are Gray and Frankie Head, You're like, damn, Lily Tomas

(01:13:08):
is weed. Mom, Mom, Mom, It's a good time movie.
It's a m If you haven't seen it, you gotta
see it. Does it pass the Bechdel tests lots? They
do talk about heart a lot, but there are many,
many conversations between many combinations of characters, and only because

(01:13:31):
you have. I don't even know that they're ever actually
trying to kill him, Like they don't want to be murderers,
they just want to They just want them to get Honestly,
there was a there was talks of a sequel to
this movie, which I would prefer to a reboot, and
I've really absolutely had it with the reboots. A sequel

(01:13:53):
with the original cast would be amazing. That ended up
getting scrapped, but I'm like, oh, they should do it,
and then this time they should be trying to kill him. Yeah,
like the next level. Yeah, let's go full horror camp
and just do it. I read this piece that was
like the reason why they aren't doing the reboot is
because the content would be too similar because things haven't changed,

(01:14:14):
and I was like, I was like, so depressing. I've
had like male bosses, like pretty much word from word,
the same things that Mr Hart says to like Judy
or Violet or shout out to my old old boss
for making me cry over paper towels. Fuck you talk

(01:14:37):
to my boss from two weeks ago. Should appress them,
Sweeten law La, I would never give me five dollars,
so I'll never hear this. Let's write the movie on
our nipple scale, I've kind of been waiting for this day.
Oh my goodness. Okay, I would give this a four

(01:14:59):
point to five. I've I'm gonna take off three quarters
of a nipple because it is a movie that largely
ignores people of color in general, and there's you know,
just a couple of those like regressive jokes about sex
work and just tribe of people and the Amazon, you know,

(01:15:20):
stuff like that. Um, but it just feels so ahead
of its time, and it holds up for the most
part pretty well. You know. It's it's a raw, it's
a fun movie. It's it's i'd love to see women
triumphing over there, like sexist oppressors. Just a few of

(01:15:40):
the era things that it gets a little wrong, could
be more inclusive, could be more intersectional. But um, for
nineteen eighty four five, it's pretty good. Yeah. So, and
I'll give one to each of the gals Lily, Jane
and Dolly. I'll give one nipple to the woman who's

(01:16:04):
struggling with alcoholism, who gets from rehabilitation drunk femnicyclon Margaret. Yes,
and I will give my quarter nipple to scam Goddess
hearts one. I like Missy, I'm a missy stand I
hope she divorced him. Uh yeah, I'll go four point

(01:16:27):
two five as well. I mean kind of for for
all the same reasons where it's like for this is
like radical but also mainstream, which is like such a
cool space to occupy in like movie history, it is
too white. It only acknowledges middle class people, and there
is space in that movie for that to not be

(01:16:48):
the case, which we see because there's like little moments
and little like tastes of like, oh, let's explore that.
What is going on with the guy in the mail room,
what's going on with the women of color near office?
And they're there, but they're not allowed to take up
space in the narrative, which is very of its time

(01:17:08):
and unfortunately still of our time a lot of the time,
and so like there was space for that. I wish
the more space had been, you know, cut a minute
out of each revenge fantasy and let Betty have a storyline. Um,
but for fourth of the time weaknesses, it's still it's
still is like everything that they're talking about is still
relevant and unfortunately, like not a lot of progress has

(01:17:31):
been made, Uh, so that's unfortunate. I'm going to give
it four point to five nimbles. Uh, give all three
of the gals one. Oh, I think Alfred Molina, who
wouldn't have played well anyone, but I think in this

(01:17:51):
one he was like, you know what I am, I'm
just a fan. I'm Sanders. He could he could. He
might have been too young to be Colonel Sanders, and
I mean he's a chameleon. He would have been like
thirty when this maybe no, not even he'd like, he's
very young. He could have been Dwayne. He like a
less problematic Dwyane, which one. Okay, let's go with that

(01:18:17):
because I would love to see him kiss Dolly pardon. Yeah, okay.
They were corny for each other to the Yeah, yeah
they were. They were inactive. Yeah. I was like, oh,
they're about to go for them. Go there, married, they
still do that, go for them. But yeah, Alfred Milena
should have been Dwayne. So I'll give you know, my

(01:18:37):
fourth nipple to Alfred Molina and the last quarter or no,
I'll give my fourth nipple to Betty and then give
the quarter to Alfred Milena. Sophie, Wow, it's your time
to shine, Okay, okay, okay, I'm gonna go with uh
four four point to five out of unison um, and

(01:19:00):
I'm gonna give one to Lily, one to Dolly, one
to Jane, and then I'm going to give one to uh. Wait.
I want to know the actress is name who played
Margaret because she made me extremely happy. Elizabeth Wilson. No, no, no,
that's Rose Ross is getting the quarter nip. Spoiler um,
the actress who played Margaret, Peggy Pope shot at Peggy Pope,

(01:19:24):
you get a whole nip. And then Elizabeth Wilson, who
played Rose for you know, wanting to learn another language
and bettering herself, gets a quarter nip even though she
was deeply annoying, was just too obsessed with the male boss.
But she now knows French, so yeah, I was like,
you know, she was like, oh you want me to

(01:19:46):
better myself? Bon jour, and you know what quarter nip
for you? Ros? Sure? Yeah, we hope she grew with time.
Yeah yeah, well Sophie, who did it? You did it?
That's amazing. Thanks to be here and thanks for being
our producer and everything everything. Thanks for being my friend.

(01:20:06):
Where can we follow you? And you're don Anderson online.
So I only have Instagram, I don't have Twitter for
the best yeah, yeah, but it's a Sophie Underscore ray,
Underscore of Underscore Sunshine. Yeah. Hi everyone, it's present day
Jamie and Caitlin back again with the outro to the episode.

(01:20:32):
By the way, Sophie has since gotten a Twitter account,
so you can follow her because at the time of
this recording she only had an Instagram and and her Twitter.
She has quite a few followers. She's got a big following. Yeah,
and if you want to add to that, you can
follow her on Twitter at why Sophie. Why there's underscores

(01:20:56):
on either side of Sophie So why Underscore Sophie Underscore
or why why being w h y and not the letter? Why? Wow? Listening?
Are you? Are you taking notes? Um? So? Anyway, that
was our unlocked Patreon slash Matreon episode on nine to five.

(01:21:19):
If you want to listen to more Matreon episodes, because
most of them we keep locked up, okay, yes, So
the only way to access those is by going to
patreon dot com slash spectol cast and subscribing. It's five
dollars a month. You get access to two bonus episodes

(01:21:40):
every single month, plus the entire back catalog, and there
are somewhere on like eight nine episodes there currently that. Yeah,
there's there's quite a few. So if you've run out
of main Feight episodes, that is the place to go.
Patreon dot com, slash by cast. Also remember to listen
to act cast. The first episode is out now and

(01:22:03):
you can listen to ac cast on Mondays all the
way through the summer. It's a summer podcast. Is it
spelled A A c K. It's spelled A A c
K cast by Jamie Loftus. You can also just search
my name and it will come up because it is
spelled uh in a confusing way. Might doom the show.

(01:22:25):
We don't know uh. In any case, everyone please check
out ac cast please and happy July, happy, you know,
enjoy or summer safely. Yes, please, bye bye bye