A Star is Born (2018)

Caitlin and Jamie discover special guest Anna Hossnieh and help propel her to super stardom, all while discussing A Star Is Born (2018). Women uplifting women!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Big Dog Cast. The questions asked if movies
have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef
and best start changing it with the Bell Cast. I

(00:23):
hope if you're listening to this in your car, you
just crash. You just literally got into an accit. I
don't hope that. Well, I don't hope that. But if
that's what you're dealing with right now, it is our fault. Hi.
I'm Jamie Lofton and I'm Caitlin Dronte And this is
the best episode of the Big Dog Cast ever. I'm

(00:43):
so excited. We've never been less excited about anything. I've
been stewing in my juices for days now. I'm so
thrilled to be talking about a star is born with
our friend and Asne. I just I blew it and
my freaking what if I just needed my turn? Like
she's been vibrating at the table. Oh it's so good.

(01:07):
I just I every song is almost good enough to
be a real song, Like they are real songs. I
but I but the way sad I was like, this
song actually kind of slaps, but it's not quite a
real song. Oh I love it so much? So hey, hey,
here we are. We're the Betel Cast. We talked about

(01:29):
the portrayal and representation of women in film. We use
the Bechdel test to initiate a larger conversation about women
in film. Was that the Bechdel test is. It was founded, invented,
created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, and it requires that a

(01:51):
movie has too female identifying characters with names. They have
to talk to each other there for at least a
two line exchange, and their conversation cannot be about a man. Well,
good luck with this franchion. Okay, so wait, we should

(02:12):
do with a dry round of the Bechtel test. Okay,
let's do it. Hey, Caitlin, will you ask me a
question and I'll ask you what to ask me? Wait?
What it's passing so far? Don't say my name? Hey, Jamie? Okay, Caleb,
If I ask you to ask me a question and
give you the copy, will you say will you ask
me that question? Yes? Okay, here's the question I want

(02:33):
you to ask me. Okay, what do they have an Arizona? Hey?
Hey Jamie, what do they have an Arizona? Nuts? Navas
and nowhere to go. That was a long way, but
that all passed. Yeah, that all passed. That passed the
beck That was great. That was the longest pass That's
like a full conversation with someone like okay, in the

(02:54):
history of cinema, I love my favorite part of the
Bechtel test. And that doesn't have to be good writing.
It just has to be writing. But the word, Hey,
should we introduce our guests? Yeah, okay, right, well let's
give her a proper introduction. She's a friend of the cast.

(03:16):
You've already heard her on her She's all that episode.
She is one half of Ethnically Ambiguous, and she's a
producer here at how stuff works. Ana and I sleep
under the table every time you guys record true fact. So,
so here we are talking about the two thousand and

(03:38):
eighteen A Star is Born. So, and this is quite
a hot request, which I think is one of the
only reasons Caitlyn agreed to do it. Also, I blackmails
you guys, I will be the guest, and that is
that I do have a memory of you walking towards
us as you're like, we're gonna to A Star is Born? Right,

(04:02):
and then two nights later, we were in the theater
fully reclined. Guess what. I bought tickets asap. I bought
tickets for everybody. I was like, great, we're going and
said us a paragraph long venmo. Yes. It was like
you guys had to ask for my permission, please give
me do A Star is Born? Pause? You knew you

(04:23):
were going south? Yeah, You're like, I'm not excited to
see this, Like that was the first thing you said
when I got in the car, was like, Oh, this
is gonna be fun. Take a hit of weed and
you're like no. I was like, weed gives me panic attacks.
I'm very cool. Love this movie. Smoke weed in the back,
freaking seed stars. Okay, So Jamie and Anna, you've both prepared,

(04:50):
I would say more than adequately so, but I still
feel completely all over the place. Okay, just to be clear,
not in organized, prepared, but I have all the thought
I need. Good. Okay, So, Anna, what is your history
with this, this film or the general A Star is Born?
So franchise if you will. I mean, as you know,

(05:10):
this movie is a remake of a remakeup remakeup remakeup remake,
and the original film was actually called what Price Hollywood,
which was the original one who no one's seen because
who carries it was a Selznick joint. Yeah, yeah, exactly who. Um.
A little known fact was the son in law of
Louis B. Mayor of Notorious Rapist. Um. Yes, because almost

(05:35):
an email executive of that era, but yeah, he was
a film executive and he yeah, they're all rapists. So
then the film that was remade based off what prize
Hollywood was A Star is Born with Janet Gainer. I
have not seen that version. I was from nineteen thirty seven. Seven.
That's a little too far back for me. I took
a thirties film class in college and I was like, yawn,

(05:57):
enough of these Joan Crawfords. Okay. And you know I
was never a fan of that whole censorship era. Well,
it lasted from the mid thirties till the late sixties,
so no interest. I've seen the thirty seven. Sorry, I
haven't seen a long time. I didn't commit, but I
one of my favorite fun fact about that Star Is

(06:19):
Born as Dorothy Parker helped write the script. I just
feel like women usually are involved in writing the scripts,
which is so interesting because the woman has no power
but um, and then I saw the Judy Garland one
a while back. Um, it's like three hours long. I
recommend it if you like. Yeah, I have three hours
or eight a very strong edible and I can't move. Um.

(06:42):
That one I think is the best because I've seen
The barberstriceand one and actually rewatched The Barbersicean one last night,
and god, damn is streisand a mess. Uh that's I
think the worst one because I listened to a podcast
you must remember this about the making of a star
is born the Barbersrrice and one, and boy, it was
not good. She was a real bit. She led Chris

(07:03):
Christofferson to drink like a bottle of tequila a day,
so he just basically became the guy and it wasn't
just being method. And apparently she cut her own edit
at the end that had her basically include more shots
of her ass. But she was like, so she's like,
there needs to be more male gaze. I do kind

(07:25):
of love, like I wish that every actor demanded that
they got their own kind I want to see, like,
what the what is the Taylor Lotner cut of Twilight
too as more of his I think maybe it's not
even gendered. It's like, like, this is my movie. My
ass should be in it as much as possible. I
get it. Yeah, that's basically when it's got so many

(07:47):
shots to get your ass in from a big crowd.
I get it. She's insane. Okay. I've also seen the
seventies six one. I could not get through it this time.
I got forty. It's such a mess, like it even
looks like it looks like a mess on the set.
I was just like, what is it? It's and now
you both have seen this two eighteen version twice. Now, okay, great,

(08:10):
we've seen good job you're all. You're way more prepared
than I am, because I've seen Bradley Cooper's A Star
is Born one time. Honestly, you catch yourself some yeah
you know what that thank you. I don't know if
you recall, but I did watch all six mission Impossible

(08:31):
movies to prep for the episode. So I so I'm
coming in not having a whole ton of background for
this film. And it's because, yeah, I don't especially like
this genre. I this is gonna make me sound psychotic,
but I don't like to watch people sing. I think

(08:52):
it's so boring. That's okay. Some people find musicals completely uncomfortable,
like they can't like, I'm not a huge fan of musicals.
I wouldn't classify this as a musical because all the
music that's happening in this one is diagetic. Is in
like it's happening as a part of the story, and
they're like not breaking out into random song. Yeah so,

(09:14):
And at least if there's like a song and dance number,
it's like they're there's fun, there's choreography. This one, we're
just watching people sing and I could not be more bored.
And I just, yeah, I don't, I just this is
not for me. But I did enjoy the first thirty minutes.
Yes to Amy, you're raising your hand. You have a
question my history this movie. I love Judy Garland so much.

(09:43):
She was my hero when I was little. I feel
like all young queer people slash very very very quiet
young women. For some reason, there's something about Judy. I
would record all of her movies on Turner Classic and
it would be to the point where it's like my
family would write it on the calendar Judy Garland's birthday

(10:03):
because there would always be a marathon. Would you take
a cake to school every I wouldn't talk to anyone
at school but that. But my one of my parents
was like usually home and so they would switch at
the VHS table to start recording the next one. So
I've seen every Judy Garland movie ever, love her so much,
and then I wanted to, you know, experience the Judy
Garland extended universe. And so that's why I watched the

(10:25):
other Stars born to be like. I know that she
had she was the best one, but let me just
cross check and confirm, uh check. And then I found
out Dorothy Parker helped write the first one I was like,
and then Joan Didion helped write the Barbastres, and there's
a lot of famous woman. The interesting fact about that
is she started to write it and then Barber stration

(10:46):
was so hell she left, but because she was like
still like you know, credit as a writer. She made
more money that she'd ever made in her entire life
off that movie basically, so she was like set for
life and all she had to do was like meet
with Barbara like five times before. She was like this woman. Honestly,
it sounds like worth the amount of the any like

(11:07):
story of Barber strikes and on set of anything, you're like,
holy sh it, this is this is a lot, what
a legend this is? She truly truly a diva. But yeah,
I love this movie. But I just I think I
just wanted to say I love Judy Garland. And I
think we between the three of us, we've seen the
trailer maybe five times. So I do recall when that

(11:30):
trailer first appeared on my YouTube, Like I remember when
it first appeared, yes, because I think I brought it
to you guys. I was like, you see this, and
then we proceeded. I made you watch that. I made
you watch that in a bunch of like we with
Mark Wahlberg films. But I I haven't stopped watching it.
I'm glad you guys have have had a great time

(11:51):
with this so far. I have a somewhat unhealthy relationship
to the part on the trailer where Lady Gaga starts
for like full Lady Gaga moment. It's good, And then
when it was coming up that whole scene, they it's
almost like the scene like whoever is editing, It's like, oh,
people are gonna be so excited for the part where
she just yells, and so they make you. It makes
you wait for it and wait for it and wait

(12:12):
for it, and then she finally hits the mic and
you're like, I think we all like grabbed hands hearted.
Levitating five feet off the ground was crazy. I do
remember when it was about to happen, an old man
got up to go use the bathroom, and I was
so fiercely offended, like I was like fucking kidding me
to stage. Yeah, if you're listening, sir, biggest parents love it.

(12:42):
Is this the a star is born's universe or as
stars are born or a stars are stars is born?
What would you how do you? How do you what
would you refer to this? Um stars is born stars
or stars? A star is born stars the stars the

(13:02):
stars are born born, Stars born stars. That's like porn.
Star the star is would have been a great one
missed opportunity for this round, because this this film, it's
not even a franchise, this story that refuses to die. Generally.
It was like coming up once once every twenty years.

(13:26):
And they skipped the nineties, which would have been a
great Curtain Courtney adjacent but they didn't. They skipped the nineties, right,
But it was originally supposed to be Clint Eastwood directing,
with Beyonce attached. Yeah, and then Will Smith was attached.
I think as as whoever this one for the two one, well,
the one that was that was in the works before

(13:47):
this one, you know, came out with every version who's
played it was Esther for the first three No, I
think the sect Judy Garland. Then they make it like
Vicky or something. No, they change so they change name
and most of them. There's like a few things they
don't do in this movie that they She normally starts
as Esther Blodge and they change her name to Vicky
Lester to make her like hot. But this time she

(14:13):
starts as Ali and we'd never find out her last name,
and then they don't change her name, and then she's
all because she is that's important until her last name
is the man's last name. Well, and that's something that
happens every movie too. There's a few well can there's
a few things that happened in every version of A
Star is Born, and they're all regressive and we and

(14:36):
Cooper could have done something about it. Also, who heard
that Vicky was the fun like the fucuble name Vicky.
I'm Vicky Xon, shall I do the recap please? I'm
gonna not. I'm not going to do a good job
because I've only seen the movie once and I I
don't worry. You've got yet fill in the blanks. Okay,

(14:59):
So we meet Jackson Maine. He's a country question Mark.
Well his songs sound a little bit like but people
love it. It's like country rock. He's like a Willie
Nelson of sorts. Yeah, but like hot and all the
he's such an alcoholic that all the blood is at

(15:21):
the surface of his face for the whole it's distracting.
So we meet him. He is a famous musician, and
but not at his peak, not quite at his piece.
I don't know. He's already peeked and now he's on
his way down off the piece. He's playing festivals, right,
but I think he's playing festivals because he's like a
legend in that sense. But he's at this point on

(15:42):
his way down. He's still famous, but right, he's not
at his peak anymore. He gets off of the gig,
he goes to a bar where there's a drag show.
Literally goes to the Virgin and he goes to the Virginal,
a bar that we've all been at many many times.
I eaten ship into that very microphone. It's wild. So
there he meets Ali Lady Gaga's character, Yes, and he's

(16:07):
smitten with her and he waits for her after the
show and peels off her tape eyebrow. His lives spoken
like out of context, you're like nobody now if he
wasn't a famous musician and just creepy drunk guy like

(16:32):
and we'll talk about that because that is certainly worth
talking about, or like a theme later was like could
I touch your nose? Like, oh my god, stop right.
So they hang out the rest of the night and
he finds out that she's an aspiring musician as well
punch a cop. She punches a cop. They go to

(16:53):
a grocery store to get some frozen peas about it.
They are are bonding and he's like, hey, why don't
you come to this gig and she's like, no, I can't.
And then and then she goes, anyway, oh quick trailer talk,
so this is your specialty. I didn't I forgot the

(17:15):
famous much memed trailer moment of hey what that's how
I would the noise that goes that. She's like but
that is also spoken, and at least the Judy Garland version,

(17:38):
it's in the stressand one too. Oh is that's the
thing they pulled as well, that that whole just won't
take another look at you because I'm weird And every
other incarnation the actor in question separates the words. It
doesn't say the whole sentence as if it's one word.
But that's just kind of the coops take on the sentences.
It's just a word, and the word is one. Well,

(18:02):
it could be because he is drunk, because his character
is an aggressive alcoholic. Yes, but even but even when
he's sober, he's still still kind of slurring. You know
that scene at the piano where he's like just got
out of rehab, but he's like, yeah, playing with the
dog outside, like he still can't talk. Like all his

(18:23):
reactions are like sorry, he's so I mean, he's so famous,
no one will ever tell him. It's like I think
part of the like part of his character is like
he doesn't know he's weird to an extent because he's
been famous for so long that he just doesn't know
he's weird because everyone's like, oh, Jackson Maine, you're Simon
didties Jackson. You know. So basically they start to hang

(18:48):
or like the second time they hang out, she goes
on stage at one of his shows and like sings
the song and that's the right, the iconic. Oh, and
then you go that road and array not very good, right,

(19:10):
And he's like, otherwise I'll plagiarize. So I was like, well,
the steaks are there, they are right, Yeah, So she's
basically forced to go and sing her song on stage
with him, and this starts to kind of propel her
music career forward because people see it, and people take
video of it, and there's a bunch of YouTube views

(19:30):
and people start to take notice of her. And as
that's happening, they're developing a romantic relationship. And there's you know,
some struggles along the way because he again is a
little bit suffer like suffering from alcoholism. There's nothing like
having to always wait for your significant other to wake
up from his drunken stupor so you can hook up, right, Okay,

(19:51):
well I'll just wait till you wakept. It's h two
pm tomorrow, okay, five am, Okay, cool, awesome. There's and
also Sam Elliott is Bradley Cooper's brother and he's thirty
years older. This is a plat point that never I
was like, why couldn't he Like why does the brother
have to be elderly? But he is. And sam Elian's

(20:16):
character is his like manager road dog buddy, and he's
always like, you need to take better care of your
hearing because Bradley Cooper's character's hearing is got tonight, Like say,
I don't know that this is an Arizona farm boy accent,
but Sam Elliott talks the same fucking way Bradley Cooper does.
Bradley Cooper is doing a Sam Elliott impersonation back to

(20:39):
Sam Elliot because Sam Elliott comes. There's one scene that
you can't make a word out the entire thing, but
Sam Elliott walks up with Bradley Cooper's hearing aid and
he's like Jack Copper. And then there's that one scene
when he walks up to punch him, and it's just
a shot of their two faces, like just right in

(20:59):
front of each other's artisting at each other. Are we doing?
This movie should have been subtitled for Drunken Men, like
their women do not get drunk in this movie. It
is only useless men who can get drunk it there,
and then later on I got confused. There was a
part where I was like, Sam Elliott works at SNL

(21:21):
now because she's on SNL, right, why is he there?
He said? He I thought I would stop on see
how she's doing. And he's like, what what's that? What?
Like you can't hear anything because he has he's damn it,
you know how like when you have tonighta's you can
just treat everyone in your life like trash um. So

(21:42):
then at some point Ali and Jack get married, but
he's showing no signs there. It's a whole thing, right
and Eddie Griffin, Eddie Griffin's also there. Yeah, he rolls
through everyone's at the wedding. Andrew Dice Clay is Allie's dad,
explains YouTube video counts at one point it's a great movie.

(22:05):
He's like, you know, for everyone doubts how many people
seen it? I wanted two hundred times. I was like, oh,
this is great. It's unclear. I'm still not sure where
this movie is supposed to be taking place. I do.
I've reached the conclusion it's Los Angeles, Yes, I believe so,
But why they're they're talking like newsies. I thought she
was upstate New York because they all have New York accents.
But then they get on a motorcycle go to Arizona

(22:26):
like twenty minutes and they get there like two seconds.
List I'm like, they didn't drive across the country. And
then when Lady Gaga goes in the house, she's like,
what the button exactly, like this is not New Yorker.
Think her accent comes and goes like it's nothing, And
let me introduce you to the concept of moving. People
sometimes move from one location to another expand on this period.

(22:50):
I don't know, there's inconsistency where But then she made
it sound like they had lived in that house her
whole life, Like she's like, da, how many times do
you carry the piano for me? Oh my god. Okay,
so this has been a thing. A star is born
in the mystery of where Lady Gaga's character lives starts
a hilarious debate among film critics. Okay, so this has
been a point of contention. We don't know where anyone's from.

(23:11):
I don't think that's how people from Arizona sound, but
I'm not very well. I was also trying to gauge
where they lived together in that house of his. Is
that like supposed to be like the Hollywood Hills or something?
I thought, okay, because at one point she goes like,
I have to play the Forum tonight. Will you meet
me there? And then she leaves, so it's like, clearly
if you're somewhere else he lives, like l ash or something.

(23:33):
I don't know. She's like, oh, meet me at the
Forum and right and then and then he says hey,
he says, I don't want but this time it's sad
because he's going to kill him. Okay, so sorry. As
she's advancing in her career, he is, you know, still

(23:55):
drinking a lot. He becomes verbally abusive different points. He's jealous. Um,
he rubs a bagel on her face. There's lot of
icing ends up on face. Brad like Cooper's got I'll
go on the record. He's got a thing with the
cake on the face. There's a lot of cake in
the face in the movie. Every top Bill character gets

(24:15):
some cake on the face. Day of Chappelle gets cake
in the face. I don't know if Eddie Griffin gets
cake in the fast. So then she wins a Grammy
because she's become so famous, she's at that point in
her career. It was a nice touch that Lady Gaga
dressed like a Grammy because that's what Lady Gaga would do. Yeah,

(24:35):
her dress is like a Grammy dress. But at this
Awards ceremony, Jack is so drunk that he like stumbles
up onto the stage and then pisces himself, like on
camera on the stage and watching now, I don't know why.
I was like, first, sure, Bradley Cooper method pepe himself,
but it's definitely a post PEP. It's a I kind

(24:59):
of how to tube, like a tube of those like
we're going to excessively PP. I don't know, you know
how you can just sort of tell, Well, I'm a hacker,
so I can tell when things are computer but I'm
pretty sure it was computer PP. He wouldn't actually have
pped himself, No, I think maybe he tried, but he
got a nerve. I thought there was like a little pepee,
little two PP. I think it was a practical effect.

(25:21):
I think, really I feel that way. I feel like
this is this is what I love about movies Like this,
someone knows or someone that's in the process of trying
to find out what the deal with the PP is.
Bradley Cooper is known for being a practical effect genius hangout.
He was James Cameron. He all that face. He just

(25:43):
laid in the sun for ten hours for that facial.
Whatever was going on is a bloated red face the
whole time. Yeah, I love it. Okay. So at the
award ceremony, he p's himself and then he's like, oh crap,
I've hit rock bottom. Better go to hit the rock

(26:04):
of Peppy. So he goes to rehab and Ali's all like,
I still love you. We can make this work. You're
going to come back home, right, And he's like, oh yeah,
I think so. She way over dresses to go to rehab. Yeah.
I didn't think her outfit was appropriate for rehab. He
gets back home, he's in recovery and her manager, whose

(26:28):
name is rez Gavrin, I believe British villain, British twink
villain off head of you. And then she's like in
her Scott records and he literally goes over to probably
Cooper's house. He's like, I would be real help if
you killed He basically tells Jack that he has ruined

(26:51):
Lady Guga's career and that they've had to do like
so much damage control. So Jack this prompts him to
commit suicide Fish so it's like the the British Guy.
And then there's like a tribute song at the end
where she's like, I'm Ali Maine and she sings a

(27:11):
song and everyone's sad. This is original, the actual Let's
take a quick break and we'll come back and watch
A Star is Born again. Let's take a quick break
and then we will be right back and we're back. Okay,

(27:33):
So where do we want to begin with this? Because
I just have so many thoughts I don't know where
to start. Well, I personally would like to draw attention
to Jack's behavior in the beginning of the movie, where
I think we can apply the Bushemi test to this,
where early on he's apply that not super like you

(27:54):
were saying, like the not super famous guy. I think
if someone that hot who was a nobody was doing
that ship people would also not be having it. Sure.
I mean, basically, after they've met, for they've known each
other for less than twenty four hours, he's like, Hey,
come to my gig tonight, and she's like, I can't.
I have to work. No thanks, and he's like please though,

(28:15):
and she's like, no, I can't. She's telling him no
several times. Then he sends his driver to her house
to pick her up to follow her right um, and
then she's like no, I can't. But then eventually she
decides to get on this private jet and go to
this gig after all. Uh. And then a few scenes later,

(28:36):
she's sleeping in her bed and she wakes up and
Jack is there and she's like, how why are you here?
And he's like, oh, your dad let me in here.
I am. So this is like, Dice, what are you doing?
I respect your daughta. What the are you doing? That
a good line read by Dice. We have to remember

(28:58):
he is one of comedies most notorious misogynists, one of
the most successful misogynists in the entire industry. Good for
him though. He did a couple of goods my daught Yeah,
he had a great lines beginning. Take a look at
her To all his buddies, you know, some with the
most talent, they just don't make it. It was like,
you fucking assho. Literally after she comes home starts cleaning

(29:21):
up after him and his gross friends. Although I think
It was a super producer, Sophie, who said, uh, Dice
is squatted in every scene in this movie. He's got
like no less than four old men with him, just
like being like, Dice is the fucking I think that's
his like real life entourage. He's like, I don't come

(29:41):
on set with less than four fucking gross dudes. I
think though probably I could not figure out that was
Dice to save my life because I realized I had
never seen andrewdies Clay's eyes because he always wears his sunglasses,
and that was fucking me up until the last same
of the credits, and I'm like, is that andrewdiese Clay?
And I like felt like a fucking idiot. It really
actually took me out of the film a little. It

(30:02):
took a couple of scenes to figure out it was Dice,
which is too bad because I think that all of
us right now could play his girlfriend and a thing
about the right age. My boyfriend is Andrew night Anna
my daddy. But you know what I mean, I'm so
sorry about that funked up stuff I said. But in

(30:24):
any case, the behavior the Bradley Cooper's character is doing
is troubling. It's stockery. It's predatory, but because he is
a man with fame and power and influence, she's like, oh,
how romantic. So I was truly surprised how quickly they

(30:45):
just started making out. I was like, really, that girl,
I don't mean, you don't really know much about him
on the knees a famous person and seems drunk as fuck.
They I feel like they try to work around that
by saying like, oh, she does at least go to work,
but then someone's like, you're fucking late, and she's like,
I fucking quit, and then she gets in the limit

(31:07):
that followed her. I don't know. I didn't. This is
kind of like the inception of this relationship changes. I
think there's versions of it where it's done better in
past stars, and there's also versions where it's like way creepier.
But they're the first two stars born. Happens between actors.
This one and the Strisan one are musicians, but it

(31:31):
usually starts with like them they meet she's a little
girl from nowhere who just moved to Hollywood to become
a big staw and she's an extra and she's a
waitress in the whole bit, and then he like gets
her an audition, which is less creepy than sending someone
in a in a vehicle to follow her around. Um yeah,

(31:52):
I feel like they're really trying to push the like
this is an undeniable love situation, but that didn't work
for me. Like I I didn't believe that they were
like undeniably attracted to each other, and we're just being
pulled without their control to each other. And that's why
they started, like, you know, almost hooking up almost immediately.
Like I didn't trust the way it was done in
the movie. I didn't believe it necessarily. There's so much

(32:13):
in all of these stories, but speaking to like the
eighteen one as well, that like there's so many elements
of this story that go completely unexplored, and I think that,
like one of the greatest weaknesses of this story is
that it is like sort of doesn't give it's the
star who is born a k a. The one woman
in the movie who talks really enough, not even like

(32:36):
it's like Lady Guy was very present in this movie,
but there are certain elements of her personality that are
totally unexplored because this character that esther Bladget or Ali
who fucking knows is like the woman who stands by
her man, and it's like the message of this whole
franchise is like, hey, if you're in a relationship with

(32:56):
an abusive alcoholic hanging there, maybe he'll die. Like it's
just not good. But but there's a few like, Okay,
some things that occurred to me. And I haven't done
a lot of reading about this Star is Born, just
because I just I've been too busy watching it over
and over. But some things that occurred to me about

(33:18):
Ali and Jackson's relationship that we never addressed, aside from
being in a relationship with an addict, which we can
get to because that is like weight glassed over, like
he was mean to her one time, Like that's not
how I know. But one thing that's never touched on is,
you know, the power dynamics in this relationship from the

(33:40):
jump are off, and they're off in every incarnation of
this story. And so I don't I mean, I don't
even know where a land on this. But there's some
times where I'm in the story and I'm like, well,
Ali like probably would feel weird leaving him early in
that relationship, even though he's clearly a fucking mess, even

(34:00):
if she does like him because her entire career is
dependent on him, which is a power dynamic he introduced.
But you know, it's I think that that adds some
complexity to her character. If it's not just like she's
so in love with him and she can't leave because
she loves him so much. It's like, well, what if
she sort of wants to leave but her entire career
is tethered to this one person. Like that's something that

(34:22):
happens in the first half of the movie that I
thought would have been at least interesting to acknowledge. But
that power dynamic is never They're like, well, they love
each other and correct me if I'm wrong, But I
don't think he ever does anything to like promise that
he's gonna, like uplift her career and get her to
where that doesn't happen, right, He's always like, I'll get
too far. He does, he does that and in the

(34:42):
other versions, but I mean, it still feels pretty heavily implied,
like if she left that tour, it's not like she
could just you know, like I think the story would
have you believe she needs to be on tour with
him at the beginning, and you know, establish herself as
his sort of like right hand singer before she can
become you know, and meets everybody she has to meet

(35:03):
and then she can take off on her own. But
she couldn't have technically started on this path in this
story without him. And that's like to sort of a
dynamic that they don't acknowledge at all. Right, And I'm
not saying that this thing happens in this I'm not
familiar enough with the other ones to know if this happens,
but like it's reminiscent of situations where someone like Harvey

(35:26):
Weinstein targets a young up and comer who's like, I'll
take you far if you just come to my hotel room,
or you know, like making promises, and what they're really
doing is just manipulating and abusing and ruining their lives.
They felt like sorry, there was a selfishness to his
behavior in the sense that he actually didn't want her

(35:49):
to grow beyond being a singer with him, right, And
that's when he starts to get the kid. That's when
the cake is in the face when she starts to
out achieve him, and she does call him out and
was like, you're jealous, but it's like, I do like
the part where she lets him headbutt a TV or

(36:09):
she's like, you want to play? Lest fucking play? And
then he had butt the TV and she's like it
just like passes out into it. Yeah, and then she
gets the cake off her face, she goes, what the
fund is this? This? I did want to see more?
Sad thing is like a lot of her attitude came
out in the beginning and then sort of just became
passive at the end, Like she didn't defend herself, shen

(36:30):
stand up for herself. She just kind of went along
with what people told her to do. Thing Like, she
doesn't have much agency in this story. She things happened
to her, but she's not necessarily I mean you could say, like,
you know, the the hard work she's put into being
a singer and you know, working on her craft, but
we don't really see that. The story picks up basically
right before she's propelled to start them, so right, I mean,

(36:52):
we at least get the moment of like we know
she's good enough, she has what it takes. It's not
like they need to fake her talent at any point, right,
which I appreciate it, it's not like, what's that fucking
movie with Meryl Streep and Hugh Grant Florence Foster Jenkins.
It's not a Florence Foster Jenkins sitch, right, But yeah,

(37:12):
but everything happens to her. Yeah, so she's not necessarily
going out and making active choices, and arguably that's because
it's Bradley Cooper's character who's the protagonist of the story,
who's driving the narrative. But it would still be nice
to like to see her, I don't know, just be
more active in the pursuit of something. But it's a
lot of stuff happening to her and her kind of

(37:34):
rolling with the punches. It does seem like there's this
overall like male savior vibe throughout the entire film. It
like it's very broad because it starts with him, you know,
giving her her first break to like that guy being
like I'll make you know, signing Interscope Records, and then
it ends with him killing himself because he's like, I'm
doing this for you so you can go on and

(37:54):
live your life without being drinking myself. Yeah, Like I'm
here for like this is all because of you. I'm
trying to make your life better and it's like she
could have easily have succeeded fine and gotten her life
together as you have not killed yourself. And also it's
she could have divorces like there's there's there's a lot
of like missed like things that you're like, you would

(38:17):
think that it would go more challenge but just doesn't.
Which is I mean, I don't know, I still love
the movie so much, so hard, but but there's so
there's so much where it's like she really doesn't have
another element. Okay, another I think we've already talked about
this because we've been talking about this movie for a week.
Where Ali does. I mean, we see the sort of

(38:38):
song she's writing at the beginning, she's ah, and then
when she becomes a pop star that goes away and
all of a sudden she's like, why would it the
that that it's all the time they're good, but they change, right,
she becomes a pop star, and there's one scene because
she does she sells out immediately, which is not even

(38:59):
a moment on the character because we don't really know
her well enough to know what her code of ethics
with this is. But you know, the British guy is
like you go to die your hand and learn to dance,
and so she does. And then there's one scene, the
one scene in their entire relationship where Bradley Cooper is
an alcoholic and mean to her. He comes in, she's

(39:21):
in her fucking grammy bathtub or whatever, and he is
He's like, so, what we're singing songs about s now?
Which is which is like one of the only good
points he makes in the entire movie that goes totally unexploited.
Like he points out, like, hey, you have changed a lot,
and you are. And he's saying that partially because he's jealous,

(39:44):
but also there is an element to that character, yeah,
where he's like a pure artist or whatever he thinks
he is, and he looks down at people who aren't
like that. Should have approached it differently because also in
that conversation, he's telling her that she's ugly and that
she has no talent. She's an embarrassment now because of
how she's taken her opportunity and like used it to

(40:06):
become this pop star or just mostly I don't know,
I guess let go of her true inner musician to
cater to people who will give her that kind of attention.
In money and you know which isn't I think that's
a really interesting theme that they drop after that Like that,
it's just because as flawed and bad and as much

(40:27):
of a sign of like, this is a toxic relationship
as that scene is. He makes that point and she's like, no,
that's my song. I wrote it. It's great, and then
it's like, but we know that it's I don't know.
That was one thing where I was like, that would
have been another interesting element to this character. But the
story is so committed to making her a perfect angel
that she's a boring character. Sure. I would also real

(40:49):
quick argue that there's some gratuitous nudity in that scene,
because why does it take in place in a bathtub
and then she stands up out of it and you're like,
see her whole naked body, just a quick glimpse of it.
But it's like, that's even the past stars bathtubs a lot. Okay,
Like the actual scene where she's putting on makeup on him,
like that happened in the stridesand vers and I think

(41:09):
it happened in the Garland does on the version also
argue that we didn't necessarily need that nudity in that moment,
but maybe I'm just approved. I decayed it, but I
can't wait to print it on iTunes and pose it.
So another thing that I thought could have been explored
far more that wasn't is the sort of pressure that

(41:30):
is placed upon usually women in the entertainment industry to
change the way they look and cater to a specific
image that like whatever studio or record label is voisting
upon them. Because early on in the film, Ali is
talking to Jack. I think it's like the night that
they first meet, and she's describing right, She's like, oh,

(41:52):
you know, I haven't gotten my break in this industry yet,
because you go into these rooms and there's all these
men looking at you and they tell you that you
sound great, but you don't look great. And she expresses
some insecurities about her nose and stuff like that. So
she's talking about this and then she gets her big
break and it starts to work out, but then her
manager is like, we need you to dye your hair

(42:15):
blonde and don't tell the dances not to go on stage.
To build on that point, it was almost as if
they couldn't acknowledge that her looks didn't matter until she
got signed off by another man to be like, hey,
well I approve and then they're like yeah, yeah, exactly.
But the entertainment industry has like a very long, troubling

(42:35):
history of like shaping women into, you know, the person
that whatever studio wants them to be. For example, you
can take a look at Judy Garland's career where she
was like forced pills to like keep her thin, to
keep her peppy and eight years right, and then you
know there's other Garland was also famously molested by Louis B.

(42:58):
Mayer himself when she was like thirteen or fourteen years olds.
So it's like, but yeah, different, you know the studios
network's record labels, you don't have an image in mind
for you know, whatever young anginue they are trying to
build into a superstar, and they basically decide, Okay, here's
what you look like, here's what you're gonna wear, here's

(43:20):
what you're going to act like. And I think, right,
I think the movie could have explored that a lot more.
But especially it's not the story, I guess, especially because
it's like you have Lady Gaga here, you have a
fucking expert on this topic in the room. She can
tell you, but I don't know. This is. This is

(43:42):
also I believe this is the only version of this
script that is written entirely by men. There's usually at
least one woman involved, but this is There's a lot
of themes that go like surface explored, Like I think
that they're trying trying to make a statement by like
Lady Gaga's nose, but then she's famous anyways, and like cool,

(44:06):
but it is it's also surface where she basically still
ends up folding to all of their demands and that
ends up working out in her favor. There's really no
consequence for that happening, So like, what's the comment, like
do it? There is a part in her smart and
I think that like she does kind of decide to
just give it and take it into her own hands

(44:26):
and be like, fine, I'm going to do all this,
but I'm going to do it my own way, Like
when they said, oh, make your hair plan and Blonde's like, no,
I'll do orange, which is weird choice. But there is
things that I think like, oh, well, she was actually
like even though it wasn't necessarily the right choice and
it was selling out, she made the choice to sell out,
which was like, I don't even care that this character

(44:47):
sells out. I'm not even critical of her for that.
But it's like they don't even talk about that, they
don't even look at that, just like they're like, well,
this is what happened. I'm like, but this is the
star who's born. Why don't we get to here where
she'd think about nothing? Right? It's so the whole thing
is it's about this woman, but the whole story unfolds
from the point of view of men around. Yeah, you
have to see I mean, you know, as much as

(45:09):
I love seeing Bradley Cooper and Sam Elliott crying together
in like three different scenes, it's like, okay, we uh,
there's there's there's there's so much I mean. And then
the last big note I had for things that go
unexplored in Ali's character is her relationship to her father
where there's a scene that I find so frustrating with

(45:29):
Ali and Dice, uh towards the end of the movie,
and it's after Jackson Pepete himself and now he's in
rehab and she's like, eat us up a breakfast. Sorry,
I'm stressed. The whole thing and Dice it's already been
acknowledged several times that Dice is also an alcoholic seems

(45:50):
to have had a drinking problem. That tracks in terms
of like, you know, children of alcoholics very often end
up with alcoholics. R I p me, but um, but
the same though. Yeah, I mean it's it's we've got
we've got evidence in the room. Uh. But he starts

(46:10):
to apologize to her, starts to be like, I'm sorry
I wasn't a better father to you. And I think
her character acts, I mean, it makes sense that this
would be a conversation that would happen, But in terms
of moving the plot forward, I found it very frustrating
because she's like, it's totally fine, It's totally fine. You
were supportive of my music career. You carried my piano
up the stairs once, and you like paid attention to

(46:33):
me in that way. It's fine. You didn't do anything.
And then Dice goes, you're the best person in the
world kidding me. Something I know, you know, just throughout
a lot of movies or just even in real life,
is that women, no matter what, even if we get
the abuse and we have to take it, we still
have to be the ones to make sure the men
are okay, right, It's like she's the one going through it,
but she's still reassuring her father that he's okay, making

(46:54):
sure he eats. It's like she literally had to go
on the Grammy stage and while her Ben Pete himself
and she was like, we're having a lot of fun tonight.
Like that was the most cringe worthy moment where you're
just trying to just like keep your ship together for
your trash ass. She's so accommodating, and it's it is frustrating.

(47:15):
It's like these people around you are fucking up and
you're just taking care of them and like not reacting
to it. And if that's a part of who your
character is, fine, but like show us that and show
us that it causes her pain outside of like you
hurt me, which happens like three times. Yeah, at that
moment where she forgave him, I was like you need
to slap him across the face because you hurt me,

(47:38):
and him being like taken Jesus Christ, And that's like
another like if if this movie was a different kind
of movie, it could have explored the dynamics of an
abusive relationship where it's not like if you're in an
abusive relationship. It's out of the question that someone would

(47:58):
say something really fucked up to you and you would
say I forgive you to avoid further conflict. But it's
presented to us as like they love each other and
they're working through some stuff. But that doesn't, I mean,
in context, seemed to be the reality of this relationship
at all. Also a question, uh that goes back to
our Fifty Shades episode, what amount of time does this

(48:21):
movie take place at? No, that is a good question.
I think two years max. The only time that we
know has passed is when he says he's been at
rehab for two months. That is the only time really
acknowledged time time twenty four hours where they meet and
then a few hours later she's on a private jet
to go to his gig and sting with him on stage.

(48:42):
It's crazy. We got to take a quick break, but
let's explore this more when we return. And we're back,
I have a quick comment about juxon Main's character um
compared to pass versions of this character. The first one

(49:03):
is Norman Maine, I believe the second one is also
Norman Maine. And then does Christopherson have like a weird
John Harman Howard they're all variants, and then Jackson Maine
all variants in the same name Bradley Cooper's. I think
one of the adjustments made that I don't even know
how I feel about it. I think it's just kind

(49:23):
of like it makes sense, but it also creates a
lot of problems. That we've been talking about is that
Bradley's Jackson Maine is of the four, by far the
least despicable version of this character and by far the
most lovable, because the previous three are drunk in ways
that are more violent. I believe in the first one

(49:45):
she literally is hit uh in in the straisand one
he cheats on her. There's like more clear implications of like,
this is not a good guy, which makes it more
frustrating at the end where she's like I have him,
but also creates, I mean, a more disgustable relationship or

(50:05):
a more real relationship that could actually have happened, where
Bradley Cooper is sort of Jackson Mane presented as like,
as far as we know, he never cheats on her,
as far as we know, he is mean to her
one time, and and there's a cake in the face
but he's pretty good natured about everything and he stays
generally supportive. I I feel like, just based on talking

(50:27):
to my my friends about it last night, because I
was like, oh, I wonder, like, what the Because I
think if you left any of the first three, no
matter how you feel about it, you leave being like
it sucks that he killed himself, but he was a
bad guy and he he wanted to hurt her, you know,
And in this one, I think you leave like Bradley Cooper,
it was so nice, but so like they make adjustments

(50:48):
to the character, they kind of neutralize It makes it
harder to criticize him. And I don't even know how
I feel about that, but it's just weird. A lot
of that also feels like the reason Bradley Cooper's like
the worst he gets is, you know, being on stage
and you know, berating her a little while she's in
the bathtubs. That also just feels like the industry working

(51:09):
behind Bradley Cooper to be like, well, I mean, you'll
be a shitty drunk, but we're not going to have
you hit her because we don't want people to see
you in that nature. You know, Like there's something working
there where Bradley has that control over how his character
like as how evil his character can be. So it's
like you're, yeah, like you come away from watching this
relationship different than any of the other three, where you're

(51:31):
you it's almost like cheesier and sweeter than any of
the other ones, where he's the best guy out of
all of them, but he's still awful And I don't
even know, it's just like it was a change that
I get why, Like, obviously I'm not like man, I
wish he hit Lady Gaga, but because like his alcoholism

(51:51):
is portrayed in such a it's more like goofy and
embarrassing than dangerous and harmful. In the way it's portrayed,
it just kind of it just makes it bizarre. And
it's not I mean, not that movies have to be
a realistic portrayal of everything, but it just the way
that relationship is. You leave kind of still liking him

(52:11):
anyway that I don't think that character is supposed to work.
And and you touch on this where like him committing
suicide is like this act of sacrifice and he's doing
it for her, and it also makes him seem like
kind of a martyr and almost heroic, where it is
like a pretty irresponsible way to frame suicidality. I do

(52:33):
appreciate that the movie does acknowledge alcoholism as a disease
because addiction, addiction is a mental illness, and I think
that a lot of people still don't quite realize that,
and that's because of the stigma surrounding mental illness and
things like that. At least, I mean, could it have
been explored more sure, especially because that's a huge component
of this movie. Was one conversation with just one line

(52:56):
where persons then the line is it's a there. I
did love that, Like I should have broken up with
him in that scene, but she doesn't. She just goes
it's a disease. That's what is really frustrating to me
about this movie is that even though he is not
the worst of all the renditions of this character, he
still mistreats her. He still puts her in positions where

(53:17):
she's constantly worrying and suffering and all this stuff. And like,
and maybe this is just the cynic in me where
I'm like, she should have lift him and like not
put up with this bullshit. But like I wish the
ending that we saw to this movie is rather than
him killing himself, she leaves him and she goes on
her own path and been a great like updated version

(53:41):
of how the story goes, because that is like a
convention of he always kills himself. The first two he
runs into the ocean drama and he like drives really
crazy and then gets in a car accident. Everything. I
don't even think it's like technically a suit I don't know.
It's basically the boyfriend husband of Barbara streisand who is
producing it, said he can't kill himself because that would
make him weak, so it has to be like an

(54:02):
unintentional death, which is like yeah, so the third one
and technically at suicide, but that was like cannon to
the story that he kills himself and then she goes
to a function and says, I miss his mane and
that's we love that. That's when we find out what
her last name is. It's the last name of the
man um. Sorry, is this the only one that he

(54:23):
goes to rehab? Usually he goes to jail, jail, usually
he does in the first stress and I don't think.
I don't know the Streisan one, the streisand one I
think is the only version where he cheats on her
right and then in the first two the husband does
something drunken disorderly and goes to jail and she has
to bail him out of jail. So I think that

(54:45):
that's version of they all have like a Grammy Awards
Show meltdown, though oscars are Grammy's. Yeah, Okay. The bottom
line is updates were made to the various renditions of
this story, so I think an update could have and
done to the ending where he doesn't kill himself and
instead she's like, I'm not going to put up with
your behavior anymore and the ship that you put me

(55:07):
through goodbye. And then they meet up ten years later
and he's like, I've been sober for ten years. You
get back together and whatever, or they don't and she
does the thing where she tries her face. I keep
doing that my boy friend's face. He doesn't like it.

(55:31):
I'm just like a face tracer. It's not who hasn't
seen the sore as. You can't just do that to
someone and CVS when they're not expecting. You cannot do that.
It's bad. Uh, just like a quick face trace. But yes,
I totally agree that like a version of this where
she leaves him would have been so effective or if

(55:52):
if if they're like no, she absolutely cannot leave him,
then explore why other than she loves him. That sinister
Another thing that I was apparted with feminist icon Alice
Wetterland because it just I need to talk to everyone

(56:12):
I encounter about a star's board now has her take
on I think that's a good point about the nature
of suicidality, of the way the British manager comes at
Bradley Cooper's character at the end and it's like kill yourself?
Does he literally? I mean, that's that's that whole scene.
And she made the point of, like, you know, someone

(56:33):
with suicidal tendencies, it just excuse what that actually is
and makes it bizarre of like, you know, someone committing
suicide very suddenly, it's usually prompted by something small and
like it's it wouldn't just be like, I don't know,
spreading the idea that suicidality is spread by someone saying

(56:54):
kill yourself is just a total misrepresentation of what that
sort of depression is like. It's usually something like and
and that could have so easily happened in that same
scene where it seems more likely, like the the some
like a manager like that would be like passive aggressive
and pretending to be nice. And maybe that is something

(57:15):
that triggers him because he understands that I don't know
it was so this movie is over the top. The movie.
It does set up that he has had suicidal ideation
before when he was a much younger guy. But yeah,
I think that it was not handled the most responsibly.
I think that what happens at the end of this
movie is like a very nineteen fifties understanding of suicidal ideation.

(57:37):
The cowboy hat. His character hasn't evolved from that era.
Like his character is still like the gruff, Right, I
have to wear socks, my shoes, you know, I'm a man,
Like he does no drink. He's yeah, he's not. He's
not progressive in any manner, Like he's still the old guys,

(57:58):
Like he didn't go to the women's arch. Yea, yeah,
where's your pussy hat? Bradley, I like that last shot,
puts his hat down and he's like, all right, I'm
laying this down for the last time. It is such
and he's drunk. He dies drunk, uh like pills. He's
something he definitely mists stoggering he's stogg yeah, and then

(58:21):
it ends with this is pretty consistent across the four.
The star whom is born is depressed and then has
asked to do a function in which she sings song,
and then she introduces herself as missus. I think in
the first two it's Mrs Norman Maine, like, she doesn't
even use any of her names, so this one, she

(58:43):
saysn't it it's my name is Ali Maine, defining herself
as she relates to a man, right, I mean, which
wouldn't bother me as much if we knew it. Her
maiden name was I never had a last name. Husband
was one of those people that switch exactly what she says,
um and Ali critique not a critique, world critique. There

(59:07):
are no women in Alle's life at all, and this
is not addressed once well. Interestingly enough, she relates most
to the women in drag that she works with at
the beginning, or their men in dragons. Drags are drag queens,
drag queens. Yes, she worked at the drag bar, and

(59:28):
then it's clear that she's known the drag queens for
a long time. And then she has Oh, what's the
name of her friend? Oh, Ramon is Ali's friend. He's
an ally to Ali, if you will, former former Hamilton's actor,
really only the best in a stars born. Oh my god. Wow,

(59:48):
he's good for him and he's also he's a part
of that system that like pushes her to go and yeah,
he encourages her, like hey, and this guy who's creeping
on you and like send his driver into your house.
She goes to his door when he's passed out. He's like,
wake him up, shake your titties at him, which is like, yeah,

(01:00:09):
he's maybe not a great friend, but there are no
even an Ali. We don't know anything about Ali's my mom.
In the earlier versions with Esther Blodgett that her mother
is in the various conditions of being alive, but she
is acknowledged at any point. We don't know anything, never
references the mom. We do know what happens to Jackson's mom,

(01:00:31):
but she's also killed off and first for what you know,
her death doesn't impact him the way his father's death does.
It's just all all the narrative impact is coming from
men doing shitty stuff in real time, or the shitty
stuff men did back in the day where so much
of Jackson's alcoholism is attributed to the fact that he
was dead drinking buddy, and you want to knock one back,

(01:00:55):
and he days drinking. But and I do feel like
maybe implied, sorry, I mean to cut you. Oh I
couldn't kept going, I'm sorry, I mean to interrupt your impression,
um that he was dealing with tenitus, because they do
say that at a very young age, that he may
have gone in for putting his head in like you know,
the grandmophone. So I feel like a little part of
his imply that he drinks a lot because of that tonitus,

(01:01:18):
that he's just trying. That's what I under hear that tone.
I kept forgetting about me remembering he had tenightus was
in and out the whole movie, because there were some
points where you you're hearing his tonitus in the sound design.
But then I was like, oh, just but half of
his dialogue is like what's that because he didn't hear
what someone said to him. I was constantly reminded said

(01:01:40):
it's like, how's your tonightus, And he's like, I'm here
with my wife. He's like the dude, he does change
the subject a lot where you're like fucking hell. Okay,
but I also was confused because he seemed like he
got Tonight's at a young age. But then he also
tells Ali he was born with an ear thing so
he couldn't hear, so so he's either like had an
ear issue and then also got tenitis, which is probably

(01:02:03):
just fucking hell. I don't understand how that, like, if
you can't even hear normal things, but then there's also
like a ringing in your head at all times. That's
like a very probably unbearable situation that he should be
wearing those things that they were making for him, right,
but I guess it takes him out of the music
that he's playing. See that's saying it's he's making so

(01:02:23):
many excuses to not get better that it's just like
there's no justification at all for like any of his behavior.
It's just like you're just choosing to not deal with
all your own issues. And then you bring Ali into
your life, and she loves you, so she's not going
to force you to deal with I mean, she makes
points to be like stop drinking. You smell like alcohol.

(01:02:43):
We'll see how long it lasts till you drink again,
Like she does make jabs in him, but she doesn't
fully stand up for herself until that moment they get
in a fight when she's in the bath, and it's
only because he calls her names and says all those
rude things, like she barely even when she saw he
was drinking, she doesn't say anything. She kind of lets
it go, which seems like it's a carryover of how
she treated her dad. And so it's like, I understand

(01:03:05):
why Ali gets into this relationship for a few reasons,
is like he has power in an area that can
help her career. That's not the only reasons she's in
this relationship, but it's clearly a part of it. And
you know she's predisposed to uh, messy dudes who have
alcohol issues. But yeah, she like never, I don't know,

(01:03:26):
there's just so and and then and you were saying earlier,
like the concept of his like suicide is sacrifice where
he kills himself so he won't embarrass her anymore. He's
like letting her go and setting her free right like
actually really causing her quite a bit of pain. And
that's another eighteen update that they try to make the

(01:03:48):
kind of rings hollow as there's that scene with Lady
Gaga and Sam Elliott. Imagine that I never would think
that would be a sentence. But that scene where Lady
Gaga and Sam Elliott are crying and he's like, you're
not Your fault is jet fault alledged, which is like
a clearer view of suicide than any of the past
movies have offered. But that's still not how it's presented.

(01:04:09):
When it happens. It's presented as a sacrifice, but then
they're like, oh, but it's actually not. But then it's
still I don't know where what is? What is this? Yeah?
Does anyone have any final points? While I think it's
a great film, I really enjoyed it, you just have
to suspend your disbelief that like women are on the top,

(01:04:30):
like it all is just it's a fantasy of like,
oh I was discovered and I made it and thank
God for this man. Like you really have to just
let all that go to go watch the movie and
then you know, slowly think about it later, because it
does the more you think about it's like, Okay, like
this entire movie is happening because of a guy being like,
oh you're hot, and a good singer, you know, like

(01:04:51):
that's his whole interest in her was like, first, I
believe it's because she was a good singer, and then
as he got to know her, he's like, oh, well,
I'm very attracted to you, and I'm going to make
everything happen. And then it proceeds to be like only
men around her, and that's a frustrating thing. It's a
great film if you just you don't want to have
a good time, but don't expect to get a lot
of depth when it comes to strong women do whatever

(01:05:15):
they have to do, or even women interacting, which brings
us to the matter at hand. Does this movie pass
the Bechtel test? Well? Sort of. There is a conversation
between a woman named Gail, who's like, I guess like
a stage hand or something, tour manager type assistant person too.

(01:05:37):
I agree with Sophie feminist icon Gail Feministon. Gail shows up.
Ellie has known Jack for about eighteen hours. She shows
up at his gig. Hi, I'm Gail. Yeah it. Gail
meets him at the car that just brought them from
the private plane or whatever to take them into the venue,
and she goes, hi, I'm Gail. So we're all got

(01:05:59):
her name him. She's like, Lady Gaga was like hey,
and she's like, how is your flight? And then Lady
Gaga was like, oh, it's great. And then she goes, oh,
just leave your bags and they're like okay, and then
she's like, come this way, and then she goes, Wow,
it's so big here. And then she goes like, oh,
watch out because something's like coming out and Gail's looking out.
I love I love Gail. I hope that that actress

(01:06:23):
just improvides the name Gail and she's like, you know what,
we want this movie to pass the test. I've read
the whole script. She's like, Hi, I'm Gail. Because it's
not a character that necessarily makes sense to name, but
she really because we never see that character again. So
she stands next to Sam Elliott at the concert looking
board as fuck. Now, the question has been post to

(01:06:46):
us if whenever Ali talks to the drag Queens, does
that pass the Bechdel test? You know, I originally when
I first saw the movie, in my mind said oh,
that pass because she was telling to the drag Queens.
And then I was like, oh wait, but does that count?
And I don't know, drag queens when they're in drag,
you know they're using sheet pronouns. You know, they're using

(01:07:08):
a lot of like feminized language. But at the end
of the day, drag queens are men who identify as
men who do drag. I am tempted to outsource this
one as well. A tray listeners have better intel than us.
None of us are drag queens, So probably you do

(01:07:28):
let us know for for today, I feel like we're
saying no that those scenes, but they do happen. If whatever,
it's a it's a great We're not totally sure for
sure Gil passes. Yes, Yeah, but also maybe the test
could be your needs to be updated to be more
inclusive where it's you know, if two non binary people

(01:07:49):
talk to each other, could that pass the Backdel tests?
Could you know, a gender fluid person and a woman talk,
could that past? So I think it's worth acknowledging that
there could be some perhaps dates. Let's call up our
friend Ali Bechdel. Yeah, there is a few seconds because
I do think at one point towards the end of
their interaction, she goes, he's very excited to see you

(01:08:10):
or something like that. So it breaks that it breaks
the test and she goes back. They go back to referencing. Well. Also,
the whole context is like, hey, you're here to watch
a man, So if you factor in context, it's a
little murkier. But but she does talk to one other
woman who is Dave Chappelle's wife, whose name is never

(01:08:31):
ever acknowledged, and I believe the only thing they talked
about is like, I'll get you a wedding dress to
marry him, which is I would say. Also, Dave Chappelle
and his family are the few people of color in
the whole movie. Otherwise it's a largely white movie. Of
the four, it certainly does the best. You know, two
straight white protagonists. That's not pushing much forward, but I

(01:08:54):
think compared to other major releases, it does all right.
Lady got guys Italian. She she why the boiler out
on the Count. Andrew dice Clay, one of his buddies
is an older actor, who's that guy. He's a character
seen a million Yeah, there's a lot of character actors.
Like I feel like I've seen Gale before, Gil looked familiar.
I feel like I've seen the woman who takes a

(01:09:17):
picture of Bradley Cooper at the gross room. Yes, she's
also a character actress that I've seen places. I've seen
her a million players. They're pulling a lot of like
the like kind of famous that you see guests are
and everything. Yeah, there's a lot of vaguely faces in
this movie, including Bradley Cooper's dog, feminist icon, Bradley Cooper's dog,
which is his real dog, Bradley Cooper's real dog, and

(01:09:37):
really doctor basically understanding Bradley cast a lot of people
he knew, like the drag queens he knew. Those are
my favorite scenes in the movie. The first thirty minutes.
It's fun, there's there's comedy, there's jokes, there's drag queens.
I'm having a great time. And then it starts to
I could not be less thrilled. Yeah, Ali is like
neutralized through as a story goes on. I suppose this

(01:09:59):
is the time where we give our nipples. Let's right,
nipple wise, yes, scale one or zero to five on
basil how truths women? That's right. I'm gonna go with
a solid two. I suppose where it's a story about
a woman, but we don't get to know her that well.

(01:10:21):
The story is told from a man's perspective, both in
terms of the Jack main character and the director and
writers and everything like that. So I think a lot
of things that could have been that, like the opportunity
was there for the movie to comment on, like the
fact that women in entertainment are often held to this

(01:10:43):
insane standard of beauty and image that gets touched on
but doesn't go any further than that. Things like Bradley
Cooper's characters creepy predatory behavior where she says no, I
can't come to your gig and he's like, Okay, I'll
send my driver to pick you up. Um, showed up
is troubling. Maybe two is too generous because like I

(01:11:06):
can't really think of anything that makes me think that
anything was progressive about this movie. So yeah, I like
that there's a representation on screen of drag queens. That's awesome. Um.
So so like like it's a lady. Lady is a

(01:11:27):
queer icon. She she has a literal queer I think
that every with the exception of Janet Gaynor, every woman
who's ever played this part is a queer icon Streisande
in Garland. I mean she's in good company and that's
oh That's one last thing I wanted to say about
Ali's character that is like a standby of this character
that makes Lady Gaga such good casting as she's supposed

(01:11:48):
to be a character who is considered a little bit
too old to be becoming famous, and she has an
unconventional like she's not like a model in terms of like,
and that's why the nose comment in the whole a
bit and that's right there. Ye. Yeah, she's supposed to
be like thirty or thirty one or two or whatever,
like older older two, but she's thirty two. Okay, here's

(01:12:11):
what I'll give the movie two nipples because of the
scene that's basically an exact replica of a scene from
Titanic where in a star is born. Allie's behind like backstage.
He's trying to coax her on stage to be like
sing your song or else I'll plagiarize it, and she's like, no, Jack, No,
I couldn't possibly Jack, And that basically happens in Titanic

(01:12:33):
between Jack and Rose. The name is even the same
with Jack. So yeah, two nipples. I will give both
nipples to Lady Gaga because we see her nips in
this film. We sure do I'm going to give it
this version. Uh one and a half. Yeah, I can't

(01:12:53):
in good time. It's weird because I am going to
see it for a third time, but you know I
contain multitudes as well. I reserve the rie. Uh yeah. No,
It's like, it is not a story that treats women well.
It's never treated women well. And and as to this
version kind of doesn't update it in the way it
treats its female character really at all, which is a

(01:13:15):
bummer because it is two thousand eighteen and there's in
fact less women involved in the production of this movie
that have been involved in past versions. So ultimately, I
think by making the alcoholic character more lovable and making
the female protagonists taking away her last name, we get
no acknowledgement of how this toxic relationship is really affecting her.

(01:13:38):
There are only men in her life that's never called
attention to. It's like, and then there's a lot of
like false setups, like you were saying, Caitlin, of like
she mentions that you know, she's like not the perfect
Western standard of beauty and that's held her back in
the past, but that's never really commented on, and she
doesn't seem to mind when they totally change her. And
and you know, there's a few moments of like, I

(01:13:58):
don't know, I don't know, I don't know, but she
always does it aside from her hair, uh, she always
goes through the way that we don't know how she
feels about that, um, and we don't know how she
feels about her relationship. She refuses to tell us how
she feels about her relationship with her father. And so
the character is there. There's like an interesting character there,
but we just we just don't get at her, which

(01:14:21):
is too bad. Uh. So I will see it again
this week and one a half Nippy give one to
Lady Gaga, and then I'm gonna give one to um
Bradley Cooper's dog. Sure, I'm sorry the other half Um
I would give it to. I would give an honoraryone

(01:14:42):
just for the cinematography. I thought it was just very
well shocked um No streisand asked in this one. But
you know what, I just really like that kind of
aesthetic where you when they shoot like music or just
even concert, that you feel like you're like breathing it,
like they get all up in his business, which I
think is an interest choice. Actually, though they don't really
do it with Lady Gaga as much. They really get

(01:15:03):
into like Bradley's like air, like you feel like you're
like breathing the same areas when he's like playing. That's
from my film school background, but the real, the real
I'm really giving it two nips because, like Jamie was saying,
the whole like male savior vibe of like you needed
a man to make it was kind of whatever, like
that's not that interesting of a trope, Like it's kind

(01:15:25):
of like, oh okay, Like it would have been interesting
if I don't know, they real lesbian couple. Who knows,
like they could have mixed it up in some way,
so it wasn't just like Bradley Cooper's chance to be
Bradley Cooper like and everyone kepting like, oh, how great
he is in the film, Like yeah, but he's a
great actor, Like we know he's going to be fine,
Like we know he'll be able to transform himself, like whatever,
he'll play a d agent next time. It's fine. He

(01:15:47):
was a different accent, Like I'm not super moved by that,
but like I was very impressed with Lady Gaga because
I've never really seen her act before, Like I didn't
watch when she was an American horror story or anything
like that. And I thought it was great that she
because I know I've read before in the past that
she really struggled for a very long time, like I
believe she was raped at nineteen by music industry person
and so she her whole She's admitted that her whole

(01:16:10):
facade of how she would dress up was just like
her hiding like from the world and like covering up
and wearing all this makeup and having all these wigs
and having all this like crazy costumes. Was her distancing
her real self from like the madness of like you know,
everyone and people were coming at her. And so I
thought this was like a very strong role for her
to be like completely sands makeup, completely sands anything. And

(01:16:33):
And while it was, you know, it was acting her
like growing into this pop star and you kind of
see it happening. It was like a very interesting growth
to see within a film that you don't really see.
You never see like someone becomes like sell out so aggressively,
Like that's rarely that trope is really done in films,
unless you're like watching films specifically about industries like acting
or music or whatever. So that was cool to see

(01:16:55):
and I really appreciated Gaga's work and I'm glad she
kept the music as pure to Gaga as it could be,
like her voice stage, she didn't try and change it
for anything like that. So when I first heard that,
I was like, Oh, that's Lady Gaga. Like that's when
you know it's Gaga when she doesn't try and change
her voice for anyone and she keeps it how it's

(01:17:17):
how it's always been. She's got that very powerful voice,
and I was moved by her singing. I think she's
an amazing artist and just a performer who knows what
she's doing. And yes, I did just watch her Lady
Gaga documentary and I highly recommend it because she's so
I don't know, you really see her struggle. She has
like aggressive like nerve pain that like ruins her everyday life,

(01:17:38):
where she'll just be like a complete and total like
just in a coma of pain and can't move. It's
like she has to deal with a lot of that
and it's all like from PTSD of being like raped
and all the anxiety and trauma from her life that
her entire body, like spasms and complete pain, and she's
gotten through a lot of it now, But I don't know.
She has a very interesting story and I think it

(01:17:59):
kind of parallels a lot of this storyline of a
woman becoming less. So she made herself, you know, by
herself and not with the help of a man. But
like there's an interesting juxtaposition of her turning into this person.
And then you know, I have this hope that Ali
slowly turns back around and goes back to her original
like artists, you know self. So I give one nip

(01:18:21):
to Lady Gaga and her performance in this film, and
another nip to Angela from the drag Queen crew, who
apparently had to be convinced by Lady Gaga to be
in the film. And I think her character is so
funny in the beginning, as like this, you know, she's
just not having it. She's not impressed. She's like, get
the funk out of here, I have shipped to do.
She's so funny to the other drag queen who has

(01:18:42):
him signed his tits like she he already signed your tits.
Stop making him sing for you. And the fact that
she was in the Virgil is we've shared a stage
with Lady So great anyway, two nips, one honorary for
the cinematography, which is one more point for Lady Gaga.

(01:19:02):
As of today, she wrote a long op ed about
suicide and it doesn't directly say it's because of how
it's portrayed in the movie. But did a great job, so,
you know, cleaning up a little bit of Coope's mess. Maybe.
So she's she's just the greatest. She's an ally got
to us all alive the ally. Yeah. Well, Anna, thanks

(01:19:26):
so much for being here. Thank you so much for
having me. This was so fun. Yeah. I've had a
great time singing and dancing choreography. Yeah yeah. Where can
people find you online? What would you like to plug?
You can listen to my podcast with Shrine Units, who
did the Latin episode of this show, Ethnically Ambiguous. We're

(01:19:46):
on the House Stuff Works network. You can find us
on iTunes and whatever. I'm a producer at House to
Work So I also produced the daily site Guys, which
the Day Yes News and Sorry that song you know
Jamie Klin have both been on it um. I also
produce Couples Therapy. It's a really cool new show. That
I recommend checking out, hosted by naomiic Perrigan and Andy Beckerman.

(01:20:10):
And then I also host an independent podcast called Will
You Accept This Rose. It's about the Bachelor franchise and
it's hosted by Arden Marine and it's really fun time
and we hang out with batched peeps. And yeah, you
can find me on Twitter at Anna hosting A A
N N A H O S S and I E H.
You can follow us on social media at becktel Cast.

(01:20:30):
You can got our website becktel cast dot com. There
we have our merch store where you can get all
kinds of wonderful goodies design check them out. Strong female Protagonist,
feminist icon, Beetle Juice Team dry Scab and we've sold one.
We have sold one that's upsetting. Also, I mean, yeah,

(01:20:50):
keep buying our stuff. Also, go to our patron ak
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It gets you to bonus episodes every single month. Also,
we have some live shows coming November three, Philadelphia at
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(01:21:14):
dates November four in Washington, d C. Toward As of
this recording, the venue has not been confirmed but keep
John look out for that into the ground for the
star dates November five, New York City as a part
of the New York Comedy Festivals at Baby's all right

(01:21:35):
in Brooklyn, New York. More like tours. All right, so
we're on the door, so go to back to Castle Colm.
Our live appearances tab will have ticket links to all
of those shows. So he's hoped to see you there
are tour otherwise, thanks for listening to what's all this

(01:21:56):
butt do? When he on the counter. I just wanted
to get one more though here Jim, yeah, here look
at Thanks so much. Okay, bye God