Batman Returns with Karen Han

This week, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Karen Han put on their masks and discuss Batman Returns. Meow!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef In best start
changing it with the Bell Cast, Jamie, life's a bitch,
and now so am I thanks for telling me. I

(00:21):
guess you're welcome. I just want you to know I
underwent a transformation recently, and we'll see I'm actually running
for mayor. But but if it's if things like go south,
even the smallest bit, the first little snaffhoo I encounter,
I will then pivot and threaten to kill everyone's son,

(00:45):
all of the small children. Oh boy, does he want
eighty quickly on that one? It is wild. Um. I'm
trying to figure out who I'm most spiritually connected to.
I love I love Catwoman, but like, I don't know
if I could do what Catwoman does. I do feel
very connected to Christopher Walkin's big old son, you mean Chip,

(01:09):
who also talks like Christopher Walkin in his two lines
of dialogue. This is what I wanted to say. I'm
so sorry to interrupt it earlier, but literally, as soon
as they started talking, like, I completely forgotten that part
of his character is that he sounds like his father,
and so they're like get await that just run And
I'm like, oh, he's like doing a walk In impression. Yeah,
the idea that that would be a hereditary trait is

(01:30):
so funny. Or also like begs the question of like
how long did he spend only with his dad, so
that he's like, oh, that's like the normal way of talking,
like talk. Yeah, I had so many questions about the sun,
but the Sun was just like damseled time and time again.
And we don't talk in this community enough about damseling.

(01:52):
Christopher Walkins, big old son, his large adults. Yes, it's
a disturbing trend in meeting. It's a very harmful trope
and I won't stand for it. Oh my gosh, I
think that I am team large Adults Son. But also
there's but I'm also team the clown that's like, hey, penguin,
are you sure we want to steal everyone's son? And

(02:12):
then just gets shot immediately. There's so many goods. I'm
also on the side of the stilts clown that gets
knocked over by the batmobile. God, this movie fucking rules.
It's the batmobile just has devices, specifically for knocking over
people on stilts. He's thought through everything, Yeah, every contingency.

(02:33):
He's like, we gotta have something in the batmobile for this.
He's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, Alfred, what if And
it's gonna sound wild, but what if I needed to
feed a clown on stilts? We have to be ready.
I really, I really don't think I appreciated just how
much work Alfred has to do until this movie specifically,

(02:53):
and also like I'm sure we'll get to this, but
they at the end when Batman picks up a cat,
you can see it in Alfred's face where he's like, well,
I know he's not going to take care of that thing,
So that's my cat now, Like I'm going to have
to do everything for this cat. Yeah, who's scooping the
litter at the end of the days? Are not Bruce Wayne? Alright?
Oh my gosh. This okay, Well, let's just get into it.

(03:14):
Welcome to the Becktel Cast. My name is Jamie LOFTEV.
My name is Caitlin Darante, and this is the show
where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Becktel test simply as a jumping off point, which
of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. Originally conceived

(03:34):
as a just kind of one off joke in Alison
Bechtel's comic Likes to Watch Out For, has since been
kind of co opted into the media metric that we
based an entire show on where Wow, yeah calling us out?
Um we Our version of this test is as follows.

(03:57):
Two people of a marginalized gender have to have names,
they have to speak to each other, and that conversation
has to be about something other than a man, and
ideally it's a narratively significant conversation, not just like a
throwaway exchange. Controversially, I think when Michelle Fiver talks to
her cats, we know is a woman because they're like hu,

(04:20):
they're communicating. All right, Well that's it for this episode
where yeah, We're done. I feel like the nonverbal, like
the nonverbal communication is strong and and could it be
more narratively impactful? No, no, brings her back to life
kind of amazing. That's pretty big, huge, Okay, so we

(04:41):
are we are covering up. Batman returns a Christmas movie
that came out in June. I thought was kind of interesting.
But in any case, let's get into it because clearly
we are at the crossing with thoughts, so let's get
our guests in here. We must also cat on my

(05:02):
literally fly is right. I really whenever Flee is represented
in movies, it means a lot to me. He was
sitting in my lap the whole time, riveted. He loves
a movie cat as he should. That's wonderful. So Flee
is our honorary guest, but our real guest for this

(05:24):
episode is culture writer and screenwriter Karen Hahn. Hello, Hi,
I'm so excited to be here and also so excited
to talk about this movie with you guys, because again,
I think we're all going like fully feral as Catwoman
would want. Yeah, we're so excited that you sent us
because we were we reached out to Karen being like, hey,

(05:46):
we want to do you know, it's it's holiday movie block,
and I don't think that we've ever like brought this
movie up, even though it's overtly a holiday movie. Yeah,
I mean the thing I think just because like the
iconography of Catwoman and the Penguin are so strong, like
you tend to forget that there is like Christmas and Gotham.
And also I feel like they forgot about that again,

(06:08):
as you say, like they put it out in summer.
Basically they were I think they were like, we'll have
our like superhero Ted Poole. But then it's like, oh,
it's like actually a Christmas movie. But I mean that's
now when I watch it. I will watch it when
it's cold, right. It feels like that's how people view
it now. And it's also like such an it's like
an anti Christmas movie too. It's so fun. It's a

(06:30):
perfect film. It just gets better every time I watch it.
It really does. So what's your relationship your history with
the movie, Karen, I Well, it came out the year
I was born, so I did not watch it in
theaters or around the time when it debuted. But I
watch it sometime in the last ten years, which I
know is not a super specific time frame. But that said,

(06:52):
it must have been post like Nolan Batman um, because
I know, like I started, I watched these like after
I saw the Christian Bail movie. But then watching this,
I was like, holy Cannoli, like this is really really good.
And also this and The Batman that precedes it with
Jack Nicholson at the Joker. It's just like there's so
much great stuff going on in both movies that it's

(07:14):
kind of shocking. And I was saying this to Caitlin
before we recorded that. It's like, I can't imagine any
exact green lighting this movie today, Like you would describe
some of the elements and be like, no, no, no, no
no no, we can't do that. That's too silly, or
that's too on the nose, or that's just weird. But
that's what makes this movie so fun and so memorable.
I'm realizing this is the third Batman movie we've covered

(07:37):
on the podcast, because we did the nineteen nine Batman
like six years ago. One of our first episode was
a really long time ago. I was I was like,
how did I see this movie? Originally? I was like, oh,
it was literally for this show the shows Brown ye yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah. And then we've covered The Dark Night a
few years ago, and so this is our this is

(07:57):
our third Batman episode, and I'm not mad about it.
I mean, if there's one thing about Batman movies is
that there's five hundred million of them, and I like
a lot of them. So Jamie, what's your relationship with Batman? Returns?
So I had not seen this movie before. That's so exciting.
It was really Um, I have had a hell of

(08:19):
a couple of days just like watching this movie. Uh
two and a half times. I really yeah, I really
loved it. I feel like every time I say I
haven't seen a popular movie, I'd like to remind Bethel
cast listeners that when we started this show, a big
thrust of the promise was that Caitlin has seen a
lot of movies, and I had not seen a lot
of movies. Over the years we it doesn't come up

(08:41):
as much, but um, there's still I still haven't seen
a lot of movies. Um, but this, yeah, I've never
seen it before. But I really enjoyed the first Tim
Burton Batman that this was like hailed as like one
of the best superhero slash just sequels in general, And yeah,
I totally agree with you, Karen, Like it's I don't know,

(09:03):
like this is like Tim Burton allowed to like Tim
Burton out at the peak of his Tim Burton is
with like the biggest budget possible, and I just but
the thing, it's like he nails it, Yeah, like it's
so it was really I think that, like I mean,
and this is not an original observation by a long shot,
but it's it's so like fun to watch a superhero

(09:25):
movie that's like fun to watch, and you kind of
forget that they were supposed to be fun to watch.
And I like a lot of like serious superhero movies,
like I enjoyed, you know, Robert Pattinson Batman, but it's
not I wasn't laughing, you know, and I wasn't supposed
to be laughing. But like, this was so fun and
such a like cool otory kind of movie. I loved

(09:47):
all the behind the scenes stuff that was that they
had real penguins. They have real penguins and animatronic penguins
and people dressed up as penguins. They had every kind
of penguin's wild It was so and then I read um,
I just was like, how did we end up with
the circus? I had a theory and then I checked

(10:07):
it and I was right. I was like, I bet
that Tim Burton was just like I just want a
circus because you're like, a circus is very obviously not
necessary to the plot, and it was I guess that
it was originally written as a band of performance artists,
and Tim Burton's like, that's going to have to be
a circus, honey, I won't do it with the clowns.

(10:28):
It's gotta be back flipping clowns. A lot of them
are going to have machine guns. They wrote out Santa
with mischine guns, which would have been awesome. But yeah,
I just I fell in love with this movie a
million percent. It's so good. And also I brag just
saw Danny Elfman in concert a couple of weeks ago,

(10:51):
so I was like triple pumped because I forgot how
great the scores to his Batman movies are so good.
He's such a weirdo and like the best way possible.
And also like one of those composers where whenever you're listening,
you're like, oh, that's Danny Elfman. Like he makes no
effort I think to like blend in. He's just like
here in it, here's Danny, and you're like, here's Danny.

(11:12):
Danny Elfan loves a horn. He loves a French horn
and he loves it. He loves one of those. Yeah,
my second favorite Danny Elfman's core right next to of
course Spider Man two. Oh my god, his best and
the best of your movie. I also wanted to say,
I think this is the first time that I can
say I'm following in Alfred Molina's footsteps to some degree

(11:35):
to give him that he was I think when when
it was a nun that he was going to be
on this podcast, I like started crying, like I lost
my mind. Alfred Molina is our friend, and yeah, I
was a guest on this podcast. Famously are esteemed incredible.
Haven't heard from them since, but all good, and we

(11:55):
we sold your on. But yeah, I hadn't seen this
movie before and I absolutely love it and I can't
wait to introduce it into my holiday rotation. Yeah, Caitlin,
what's your history with Batman Returns? I saw it for
the first time, probably as a freshman in college. I
was like, Oh, there's all these Batman movies I missed

(12:16):
when I was a kid. I gotta watch them, And
so I saw. I watched all four of the ones
from the late eighties into the nineties. It's a fun time.
Batman Returns is easily my favorite one, and I would
rank this probably my number two superhero movie of all
a time behind behind uh Spiderman into the Spider verse.

(12:39):
Oh see, I would put it Spiderman two is always
going to be number one for me. But this is
like top whatever, top of the list to percent pile
ten out of ten on Caitlin's rompo meter because Spider
versus kind of unbeatable in a Whalso, yeah, but yeah,
incredible movie. I love it so much. There's lots to discuss, like,

(13:02):
oh my gosh, I can't wait to dive in the
beginning with why do they have a baby cage at
their house there? Do you feel like, oh, they like
went onto craigslist or like rich craigslist or whatever, and
we're like, we require a little baby cage if anyone
knows where we could get one of those, or they
like hired someone to make it after they saw that
their baby had little webby hands. They called their good

(13:25):
to Blacksmith. They're like, they commissioned. They've got a guy,
for sure. They definitely have a guy. It scares me
to think what rich people have access to. But anyway,
but this movie talks about that so much. This I
was so surprised at how deep into like social commentary
this in a way that like, yeah, I mean, I

(13:45):
guess I wouldn't say it doesn't feel it just like
fits into the story very naturally in a way that
sometimes I feel like it's not like a here's the
moral of our story kind of thing. It's just like
it's naturally baked into it, woven right in. Yeah. I
love it. So, yeah, I love this movie. I'm so
excited to talk about it. And um, should I do

(14:05):
the recap and we'll go from there. Yeah, Okay, there's
gonna be a lot of interjections because every frame of
this movie, I have something, there's something they have to
be said about everything. Okay, so let's take a quick
break first and then we'll come back to recap. So
we'll be right back, and we're back. I mean, it

(14:33):
is wild to open your movie in the way that
this one opens, where it's basically like a silent sequence
of these two very rich people deciding that they don't
want their baby anymore and then throwing it into the sewer.
You've got a rich regnant lady, yeah, screaming because her
baby doesn't look the way she wants it to look.
They put it in a cage, the baby eats a cat,

(14:56):
and then they throw the baby in the river, which
is wildly as it was. As the movie was going on,
I was like, oh my god, was the baby eating
a cat foreshadowing of him phasing off with Catwoman? I
think maybe? So. Also I was like, what is this
the creature from Shape of Water eating a cat also

(15:19):
in this movie? So and if he's not, he should be. Um, okay,
so we see this happen. Then we cut to thirty
three years later. So Danny Devita supposed to be thirty
three in the movie. Yes, okay, that made me laugh.
Actually that's a really good point. Also, I can see

(15:39):
my audio peaked, like, right, that's a really good question, big,
big question. I guess Penguin people age differently. Oh yeah,
he was like almost fifty already by the time. Yes,
this came out right, Yeah, I think so if you
live in the sewer age like a president is what

(16:00):
it is. Actually, you're right, Like he's got a lot
of city miles, a lot of road miles on him.
Like he's not lived an easy life. No, I get it,
he's had it rough. So it happens. Yeah, it's really funny. Yeah,
so he's he's dwelling in the sewers, people seem to
know about him, or there's rumors about his existence. This

(16:22):
you know, half man, half penguin person. It kind of
had Phantom of the Opera vibes. Yeah, absolutely, but like
more charming in a way. Also, his whole just his
underground water layer is like straight out of Phantom of
the Opera. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like in a
different world. You're like, oh, I could I could see
myself getting horny for the penguin, you know, in a

(16:43):
different world. I mean I was. I was kind of
horny for Colin Farrell penguin, but only because I knew
who was in there. Well, also like he was he
was funny, like the funniest part of the movie arguably
when they show him like the crime scene pictures. He's like,
oh come on, I was like, absolutely, yeah, he kind
of he kind of posted me pulled out a little

(17:04):
bit on that one. I liked it, but I don't
say I feel like I am like I am. I
love I love this penguin. I would let him into
my house, no question. I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely I would. I would vote for him for mayor
it well before the pivot, but not post pivot. Before
I got. There's so many elements, I mean, and there's

(17:24):
like stuff about the penguin that we definitely need to
like talk about when when the moment comes. But there's
a lot to unpack. But his whole like I think,
like coming off the l a mayoral race, so you're like, oh, yeah,
just a guy trying to buy the seat of mayor
um and almost doing it. And I was like, is
this going to be Rick Caruso's pivot? I kind of

(17:45):
just hope he goes back to building malls literally why.
I watched this with my partner last night and he
was like, oh, like I would vote for the penguin
over Rick Caruso, And I was like, You're right, I
would too, Honestly, at least he's got a story. Yeah,
he's much like sympathetic and he's not like rich brain pilled. No,
he's he's so quick to go back to the zoo. Ultimately,

(18:06):
his loyalties lie with the zoo. The zoo a problematic
entity all its own, but who knows that better than
the penguin exactly what I mean, Like, I guess I
assume he's like freed all the penguins that work for him,
like even liberated them from the zoo, right, I think, yeah,
But then he uses them as ponds and his little um. That's,

(18:28):
you know, destroy a Gotham scheme. I am very conflicted
about this because he does that but only arguably in
a moment of extreme desperation, and then he is really
like caring of them, and then they are very caring
of him in turn, like they become they know to do, like,
oh ship, we gotta be pall bearers now, and like
they know to do. That's he makes me cry. I'm
not like siously makes me cry. They make the animatronic

(18:52):
penguins frown. I paused it. I was like, how is
this penguin frowning? This is wild? Like yeah, I thought
that was like it was unclear. I was like, the
penguins kind of have like some Minions vibes where you're like,
oh my god, they just are like invested there. But
I understand where you're coming. He's crew. I'm just always

(19:13):
looking for who's the grow of the movie here. I mean,
all throughout my recap is just full of Minions references.
So thank god, Oh terrific cool. Okay, Sorry sorry for
derailing immediately. We have a lot of thoughts about the penguins, specifically,
we'll get to them. Yeah, yeah, we'll wait. We'll be
so good, no worries. Okay. So then we meet Selina

(19:37):
Kyle played by Michelle Peiffer, who is the assistant to
a prominent businessman and like energy mogul Max Shrek played
by Christopher Walkin, And now my blood pressure is skyrocketing.
You're just like, oh, there's a character named Shrek. My
favorite quote that because I was like, okay, you know, look,

(19:59):
Shrek called sure, it's come it's gone, it's come back.
My favorite one was it's nice to see you out
in the real world away from Shrek. I'm like, I
feel like I could relate with that. People should. I
wish someone would say that to me. I would go
on a date with them that said, this is an
extremely Shrekkian movie. We got Shrek, we got minions, we

(20:22):
got it all, we got clowns. There's so much what
don't we have? Okay, So Max Shrek gives a speech
to the people of Gotham during a Christmas tree lighting event,
but he's interrupted when a bunch of goons or minions
think about that aka the Red Triangle gang. You need

(20:45):
to get like a Minion soundboard whatever you mentioned it.
It's just it's like not the air horn noise. But
I actually don't really know what I I mean. It sounds like,
but oh well, what don't they sound like that's a
good you know, nana bello, bellow banana, etcetera. I'm learning

(21:06):
so much. It's like the time of year holidays. You're like, oh,
my Spotify wrapped list is gonna really bumm me out soon.
Mine's always like horrendous, so bad, right, Like it's if
you're proud enough to share it, it's you don't have
an interior life. It should be really embarrassing. I feel like, yeah,

(21:28):
I definitely share it, like for public shaming purposes, right,
as a way of holding yourself accountable. Yeah, here's what
I did, I guess. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's
it's very possible because I played it a lot as
a joke, and then it's such a short track that
it comes on a lot. But there's a track on
my like go to playlist that's the Minions singing the

(21:52):
Universal theme song. But I think I probably listened to
it three hundred times. It oh, a few years ago,
my most played song was the Lonesome Cowboy credits song
from Toy Story four, was like, this is song what

(22:17):
happened to you that year that you were really But
I also think that once I had stepped away from
my computer and left it on repeat without knowing it.
So that did check up the numbers. But that's not
to say that I didn't listen to it a lot,
because I definitely didn't. I gotta, really, I got to
revisit it. I can't conjure. What does it sound like?
He was aloneesome, cowboys beautiful? I'm crying there. I'm getting tried.

(22:44):
It's all about making friends. I've never sounded worse on
a podcast. Disagree, No, this is this is raw and uncut. Yeah,
all right. So the Indians, so Penguins minions show up
to re cavoc on the city. So the city lights

(23:07):
up the bat signal to summon Batman, of course, played
by Michael Keaton, who shows up and stops the minions.
He also saves Selena Kyle, who is being terrorized by
one of the minions. I know I said that we
would be so good dirty Custom recapt but number one.
I pointed this out again to Gala before the before

(23:29):
recording already, but I wore my Michael Keaton shirt specifically
for this recording. There's a um And also the shot
of him when the bad signal is lit is like
one of the best shots I've ever seen, where it
goes off on the wall of Wayne Manor and then
like he stands up in front of it and you're like,
it's just so good, It's so good, amazing. It also revided.

(23:52):
I was like, oh, yeah, superhero stories like it's fun
when they're very simple too, because you're like, what is
Bruce Wayne in the middle of doing. Is he just
like hoping that someone will commit a crime so he
has something to do. He's just sitting there, He's just
hanging out. There's not a light on in the room.
There's no evidence as to him having hobbies. No, No,

(24:13):
I think that that's a beautiful I was like, let
me give the scriptway too much credit and be like, well,
maybe that's them saying that, you know, billionaires have no
interior life. They're all essentially sitting in a dark room
at all times. I mean, yeah, I think you're right,
but who am I to castones? I also do that

(24:36):
mark like, yeah, people of all classes can sit in
a dark room. It's a very egalitarian. Yeah, it's a
great equalized right, yap wow. Okay, So during this havoc
that the minions are unleashing Max, Shrek is kidnapped by
the Penguin, who, of course is played by Danny de Vito,

(24:56):
and he is mad at Shrek for polluting the city
and he blackmails Shrek into helping Penguin so hard not
to make a joke, he's making Gotham his swamp. Yes,
he really is. Yeah, Gotham is getting a bit swampy.
Who's Shrek doesn't? Really? I think part of the I

(25:18):
think his son's son is Donkey, is his Donkey. He
is kind of his Donkey, which makes it even more
amazing when Shrek is like, t Penguin, take me. Yeah,
it lends new depths to the motion picture Shrek. Now,
Shrek would totally do that for Donkey. Also, he has
I've seen it evidence. Okay. I have to say I

(25:45):
love how talkatively is and he's such a cute voice.
It's so sweet. He knows that Catwoman is about to
appear on screen. Yeah, Flee loves to chat. He loves
to he loves to weigh in, and he knows that
this is a good time. Has he always been a
very talkative count? Yeah, I've never I've only had like

(26:07):
mostly coincidentally, I've I've had three black cats in my lifetime,
and I've never had one that made any noise. And
Flee is so loud. He always has been. He's a
he's a screamer. It's wonderful. Okay, So Penguin blackmails Shrek
into helping him figure out his backstory. He wants to

(26:27):
know where he came from, who his parents were, what
his real name is, and he no longer wants to
be seen as a monster. Meanwhile, Selena has to go
back to the office where she discovers dirt on Shrek
and all of his shady business stuff, and just then
Shrek shows up and realizes Selena knows all of this

(26:51):
incriminating information about him. So do you think he wants
her to get out of his swamp? There he kind
of shows up and he's like, get out of swan exactly, Yeah,
by Shrek at the beginning of Shrek one exactly, And
he gets her out of his swamp by throwing her
out of a window. That scene is awesome. So she

(27:12):
falls to the ground. She is lying there, presumably dead,
but then a bunch of street cats, and I like
to think that they are you know, rum Tum Tugger,
busta for Jones, magical, Mr Mustaphele every bed. Wow, everyone
showed up. I'm as a skimball shanks girly I but

(27:35):
I maybe he comes later when there's a random circus
train in the middle of Gotham. Because the railway cat
he has a job is a union man. I love him. Okay,
So these cats from the movie Cats seem to bring
Selena back to life. She returns home. She's chugging milk,

(27:58):
she's throwing away her stuffed anim she makes a new
outfit because guess what, she's catwoman now. She ruins her
dollhouse question mark, Yes, she makes it goth. I was
watching this and I was like, I do think, like
every woman goes through this at some point in her
life means like you either become goth or you become emo.
It's like you become like adjacent to Then to that scene,

(28:20):
every woman goes through this, every single woman. She turns
her hello there sign into hell here. I cheered iconic,
I cheered so good. There's so much fun like little
plants and payoffs in this movie that you're just like,
who thought of that? It's the production I forget the

(28:40):
production designers, like the Tim Burton guy bow something. I'll
look it up. Okay, So she's becoming Catwoman. Meanwhile, Penguin
stage as a situation where he saves a kidnapped baby
at a public event so that he can save it
and be seen as a hero by the people of Gotham,

(29:01):
which works, and everyone loves Penguin now. And he goes
to city hall or whatever, and he learns that his
real name is Oswald cobble Pot. He learns who his
parents were, but he's like, I forgive them for what
they did to me, and so people continue to sympathize
with him. But Bruce Wayne slash Batman, who by the way,

(29:24):
it were like thirty six ish minutes into the movie,
and it's only at this point when he actually starts
to become a character, because prior to that he's barely
in the movie. He's kind of like not in the
movie very much, and it doesn't know that that was Yeah,
I mean, I get why that was Like a criticism
of the movie at the time, but in retrospect you're

(29:46):
like he's sort of the most boring person. It works,
and also like I don't know, that's the fun thing
about his Michael Keaton is also a weird choice for Batman,
but like one that I love in a back but
like he's like a little awkward. He doesn't have like
the leading man features that I feel like everyone else
they want Batman to have, even just like thinking about

(30:09):
Batman the previous movie where like the Joker's goons or
whatever come to his house and he's like, you want
to get crazy, Let the Jokers Minions You're correct, yes,
the Minions Banana. They come to his house, and then
he like has this moment where he's also being like
very kind of aggressive towards them, which is not I think,
like you never see Batman and other movies being like uncool,

(30:32):
but he's so is as Michael Keaton, and like the
whole first scene or the second scene where he meets
Selena and he is just totally tripping over his words
just because he's instantly like, oh, she's like she's hot.
I have to talk to her. It's so good. It's
I I And again it's like it's like in a
modern context like scans more with like how a weird

(30:54):
guy with too much money would probably act like yeah,
I love you alive girl. Yeah, yes, okay, so so
Bruce slash Batman. He does not buy this whole like
Penguin is a sympathetic character thing. He thinks Penguin is
up to no good. Meanwhile, Catwoman goes out on the

(31:16):
streets and starts being a vigilante, not hero exactly, because
Catwoman is famously sort of a good guy and sort
of a bad guy. Maybe that's over oversimplifying. We will
talk about her at length. But she blows up a store,
but it's like empty, it's empty, and it's Shreks store,

(31:37):
So we're like, yeah, you're like, oh, I guess that
was evictiblest crime. It's fine. So Catwoman is on the
streets now. The next day she shows up to work
as Selena, and Shrek is surprised to see her back
in his swamp because he thought he killed her. Yeah,
he thought he drowned her in the swamp. Well guess what.

(31:58):
But also like shockingly unconcerned that a woman who has
fallen a significant distance out of a window is just
like back and not talking about that, and he says
something like, well, if she tries to blackmail me, I'll
push her out of a higher window. But until then
I have better fish to fry. Yeah, it's like the
shreky and logic here is kind of all over the

(32:20):
because he's like, okay, so he didn't check to make
sure she had died, right, Like, if he looked out
the window two minutes after that, he'd see her body
being swarmed by cats, which is highly unusual. But you know,
he's a he's a careless guys. I was like, okay, whatever,
but like there are things that happened throughout the movie
that you just think is going to get a big
reaction from him, and he just does not blink, such

(32:41):
as when Penguin bites someone's nose off. He's like, comes
over here, what sidebar? And I was like, oh my god,
he just like does not Yeah. I mean I don't
hate it, but I was like, yeah, sometimes his reactions
to things. I was like, well, I thought that would
have mattered more to you. I think the nose meaning
is especially funny because every one else freaks out and
then only Christopher walk and he's like all right, whatever,

(33:03):
he literally takes a society. He's like, I think we
should run you for mayor. It's really funny. Oh that's
so good. Okay. So Selena is back at work and
she meets Bruce Wayne, who is there for a meeting
because Shrek wants Bruce to help fund his new power plant,
which is actually not a power plant, is going to

(33:25):
suck energy out of Gotham rather than generating energy anyway.
He they meet and there seems to be a spark
between Bruce and Selina. And then meanwhile Shrek is trying
to have Oswald cobble Pot run for mayor because the
current mayor of Gotham is trying to stop shreks bogus

(33:47):
power plant. I think. But they need a catalyst to
drive out the current mayor some kind of like city crisis.
So Penguin's minions unleash more chaos on the streets, which
is basically just like assertain they just like militarized the
clowns or the penguins anytime they need shipped to get
stirred up there, like all right, all right, We're just

(34:08):
going to give the penguins guns and people will not
know what to do. And it's true they don't know
what to do. It's true panic. Yeah, so the clown
gymnasts are flipping around and just causing chaos. Separately, Catwoman
is wreaking her own havoc on the city. She This
is when she blows up Shreks department store. Then Batman

(34:32):
and Catwoman have like a face to face for the
first time. They fight for a bit. They then Catwoman
each I mean, well, she looks It's like a very
sexually charged movie. Oh it is the horny ist movie
I've ever seen. There's like a scene where he says
like I'm hard, like you're just there are a number

(34:52):
of times where I'm pretty sure she puts her hand
on his penis and he's just like all right. I
wonder if that's a rating thing where it's like you
can imply that her hand is there, but if he
reacts to it, then you're getting hard are then? Yeah,
I'm not sure who knows. I didn't hate it, but again,

(35:15):
very very horny movie, and for younger me definitely, I
was like, oh wow, like what is going on here?
So then Catwoman goes to Penguin to be like, hey,
help me get rid of Batman and Penguin's like sounds great,
he's horned up. Oh yeah, there's that scene that ends

(35:35):
with like, I mean because it's like, as the movie
goes on, Catwoman's horny nous just they just keep kind
of cranking it up and up and up and up.
To be fair, they're also doing that for Penguin. Like
everyone's getting hornier as it goes but like Catwoman's becoming
a very you know, like specific kind of horny. But
there's a scene that ends with her licking herself and

(35:56):
Penguin just sitting on the bed going like, were just horny.
He's been in the sewer for thirty three years, as
we now know, Like we don't know how much action
he's been getting, but I have to assume it's not
that much. And if you've been down there for thirty
three years and this is all you're thinking about, I
think he's justified. It really is Phantom of the Opera

(36:16):
vibes in that regards as well. We're just like, I
need a girlfriend. Finally he does. In a future scene
he is kind of going like our slash in cell
a little bit. Oh he's a complete full on predator. Yeah,
but we'll talk about that later. Um. Okay. So Catwoman

(36:39):
wants to get rid of Batman, but she as Selena,
goes on a date with Bruce, neither of them knowing
about the others alter ego. They're chatting, they're talking about duality.
They're like basically telling each other who they secretly are. Um.
Then Selena Lune is that Bruce to kiss him. They're

(37:01):
making out, but then Bruce has to leave abruptly because
Penguin is trying to frame Batman for kidnapping the Ice
Princess during the New Christmas tree lighting ceremony since the
other one got ruined by clowns by clown by clown gymnasts.
But don't worry, the next one will also be ruined

(37:22):
by by the same people. So Bruce puts on his
bat suit and heads down so hard. It's all a
horrible place to live, and also like feels like it's
perpetually a nighttime almost like I know logically that they're
hard day time shots, but it's just it's always under
the cover of darkness. I also appreciate that at one

(37:45):
point the mayor is like, yeah, I know that you
citizens of Gotham probably think that you know, these streets
are really funked up and scary, but don't worry. You're
elected officials and law enforcement have everything under control. And
it's like, no, you don't. You're attacked by clowns every
other day. How well could these public services be doing there?

(38:07):
The way that Gotham looks, I think of like all
the Batman franchises I've seen, I think, I mean, I've
seen like one from every whatever. But this is my
favorite Gotham visually because I love the Nolan movies, but
it does kind of just look like Chicago. I like
them for that reason, though, Like I do think this
is still my favorite Gotham. But I'm very sentimental watching
the Nolan Gotham because I grew up a lot in Illinois,

(38:29):
and I'm like, that's the best nice. I was like,
maybe if Gotham looked a little more like Boston, I
wouldn't be so critical. Every movie has to be made
for me specifically. I mean, I do feel like you
would feel very differently about it if Gotham looked like Boston.
I would actually be so thrilled. Have either of you
seen the menu? Not not yet, but I do want
to spoiler alert there's a character from my home town. Yeah,

(38:56):
although I couldn't really suspend my disbelief to believe that
Anya Taylor I could be from my hometown. There's I
was like, I don't think that there's beautiful people like
that in Brockton. But she came from Brockton. Jamie, you're beautiful.
I'm not. I'm not. I'm a tailor. Joyce swan Neck
defeating Ralph finds at a restaurant. Beautiful. But you know

(39:19):
who is? Who is? But her? It's true. She is
like an alien. She she is a gorgeous alien. I
really love her. Yeah, she came from a different like
the sailor moon planet or something. It's I do appreciate
her even being fictionally connected to Brockton. It's an honor.
There wasn't. There was a show a while ago that

(39:39):
was specifically set in the town in Illinois that I
mostly grew up in, but they didn't shoot any of
it there and didn't really make an attempt to make
it look like it. Not that there's that much going
for my hometown in Illinois, but every I remember, everyone
that I like went to high school with, we were
like watching the trailer. We were like, what the hell
is this? Like this is not at all, This doesn't
look like a done at all. Rude. Brockton gets constantly

(40:02):
disrespected because of like there have been like some movies
shot sequences there, but it's only like, oh, we need
somewhere that looks like it sucks and it's not safe.
So there were like a lot of key scenes from
Katherine Bigelow's Dumpster Fire of a movie Detroit was shot
at the streets of Brockton because they're like, we just

(40:22):
need a place that looks like it just blew up,
and so then they shot it in Brockton. Rude. Adam
McKay shot some of the scenes where like Timothy shallowm
is hanging out with his dumpster friends and don't look
up in Brockton. I'm just like, no fucking respect. Unbelievable.
They're like, okay, dumpster sequence, where can we go? Like

(40:45):
what the fuck? Okay? So the second tree lighting ceremony
is being interrupted by clowns, so Bruce puts on his
batsuit and heads downtown to save the day. But Catwoman
shows up and she and Penguin successfully frame Batman for
murdering the ice princess. So now everyone hates Batman, which

(41:08):
is a pity because she seems nice. She seems very nice. Yeah.
Also there's a sequence where Penguin hijacks the batmobile and
he's like crashing it into things, but then Batman regains
control of his vehicle. He's like doing it from like
an arcade. It's really fun, it's really really cute. It's awesome.

(41:32):
Then Penguin is able to gain more power and popularity
with his mayoral campaign. But while he's giving a speech,
Bruce Wayne Slash Batman leaks some audio where Penguin is
talking about how he's playing this stinking city like a
harp from hell, and so everyone turns on Penguin and

(41:54):
hates him now. So he returns to the Sewer to
plot his revenge. This is where he goes from semi
successful mayoral run too, I'm going to kill everyone's firstborn
son in about two minutes. I think he could have
recovered the campaign, could have recovered. I mean it reminded
me of, like, honestly, some key moments in the Trump campaign. Seriously,

(42:17):
I was saying the exact same thing. It reminds me
I was like that, Well, there is his Billy Bush
tape basically and against all odds, he was famously the president.
We don't need to talk about. So Penguin's campaign tanked,
but Trump's won't. What's going on makes you think? Okay,

(42:43):
so about Penguin, writes in this chat. So while Penguin
is plotting his plan to kill a bunch of babies,
very plagues of Egypt. Yeah, while that's happening, Bruce and
Selena go to this masquerade party, although it's called a

(43:04):
Max Scarade party because it's Max Shrek's party. Um, get it,
get it. It's a real stretch, it's hard, it's a mouthful.
When he walks in there playing an instrumental of super
super Freak, implication that super freak like exists in this universe,
which I'm glad to know that it does. Yeah, I

(43:26):
wonder if it only existed as an instrumental. Oh, interesting
could be Um okay. So they're dancing and Selena is
telling Bruce about how she's there to kill Shrek. She said,
no more swamp. No, I'm going to drain this swamp,
she says, And then they both say something that makes

(43:49):
Selena realize that Bruce's Batman, and he realizes that she
is catwoman. Um so they're like, oh my god, what
do we do now? But just then Penguin launches his attack.
He shows up. He kidnaps Max Shrek again as a
second choice he loves. She tries to kidnap Chip, but
then Shrek is like, no, don't hurt my donkey. Take

(44:12):
me instead. That's my donkey. I wish the Chip had
gotten to talk. There could be dead. Let him take
me I can. But honestly, like his christ ever walk
in the Freshman is shockingly good. Like it's just subtle enough. Yeah,
who was that guy? He killed it? I don't know,

(44:32):
feel like used to be in m M A or
something was my impression. Andrew brand Narski. He is an
American actor and former bodybuilder, best known for portraying leather
Face in the remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Saying
in Street Fighter, and Steve Latimer in the Program, and
obviously Chip in Batman returns his most iconic role. Okay,

(44:59):
so while that's happening, Penguin's minions are stealing babies all
over Gotham. But Batman stops this somehow. I didn't even
catch how he's able to stop that, but that he
puts an end to it. So Penguin sends out all
of his little penguins, like literal penguin birds with rockets

(45:20):
strapped to them to blow up Gotham. And I would
classify this scene as a bit of a march of
the penguins. Oh yeah, yeah, bit of happy feet marching
out onto the streets. Yeah, and I think that's all
the penguin movies. Well, there's also surf Surf's up. Is
that what it's called? Surfing penguins? I forgot about that.

(45:43):
Madagascar has penguins in it. They are not the prominently
it's true, really famous penguins. Yeah, they got their own
spin off, right, I thought so. My little cousin loved
the Madagascar movies. Okay, I haven't revisited it a while,
but I loved it when I was a kid. The
second one does a polka cover of New York, New York,

(46:05):
which is one of my favorite versions of it. Like
not ironically, it's very and that's going to show up
on your Spotify end of year to this year, it
probably has already. Um. Okay, so there's a march of
the penguins, but Batman shows up he jams their signal
and reroutes their gps IS to send them back to

(46:26):
Penguin's sewer layer. Penguin escapes, Batman catches up with him,
they fight, Rockets start going off. Meanwhile, Catwoman fights with
Shrek in the Penguin Layer. She's trying to kill him,
but Batman shows up and he's like, no, let's put
him in jail, and he's trying to appeal to her humanity.

(46:48):
He's like, we could be together. Batman was pissing me
off in that scene. I was like, leave her alone,
let her finish him. Seriously, totally agree, and also like
takes the very ill advised tack of saying her real
name and then taking off his mask in front of
Max StrEG in order to try to convince her. And
I'm like, if anything, that makes the case for killing
him even stronger, Like he can't be out there. No.

(47:10):
It is really funny though, When Shrek is like, why
is Bruce Wayne dressed up as Batman? Catwoman's like, because
he is, you, moron. It's good anyway. So Catwoman kills
Shrek via electrocution and then presumably scurries off with one
life left of her nine lives. Penguin shows up, he's dying.

(47:33):
He dies so that his little penguins drag him into
the water and Karen's crying. I I do cry every
time he dies in this movie, Like this is not
a joke, Like I cried and death scene every time
it is sad. They give him like a real proper
tragic hero or not tragic villain and send off. When
he pulls the umbrella out and it's and he's like,

(47:55):
pict a cute one again and then just falls her.
I was like, oh, he's an eight. He got he
should they should just give him. He's such a good actor.
And I feel like we all forget that because he's
so good at being like funny and weird and like
it's always sunny and stuff and posting his feet to Twitter.

(48:18):
But he's such a good actors. His performance is incredible.
He's amazing. Yeah, um okay. So then the movie ends
with Bruce. He's driving around with Alfred. He thinks he
sees catwoman in an alley. He gets out, he finds
her cat, which looks exactly like Fleet by the way.
He takes it home so that, like we said, Alfred

(48:40):
can take care of it and then Bruce Wayne says
Merry Christmas, Alfred goodwill toward men and women, and then
they go, oh like feminist icon. He nibbles a little
bit there. Wow, it is a really funny final line.
It's you see Catwoman and then you know, like, because

(49:04):
we live in the future, that she never comes back,
and it's sending you up for a movie that never happens. Okay,
let's take another quick break and we will come back
to discuss, and we're back. Karen, Where would you like
to begin? Uh, that's such a good question. There's so

(49:30):
much to talk about. I mean, I guess we'll start
with the penguin because he's fresh on my mind, where
I just love him so much, I would I would
give a little kiss. I don't mind that he's perfect.
The main conversation to be had about him as it
pertains to our show and the analysis we do here

(49:50):
is um the physical mothering and able ism that is
present in his character, even though no specific disability is
referenced when it comes to his character. And I'm pretty
sure that having penguin like features, to my knowledge, is
not a real thing, right. But the syndactyl ly or

(50:15):
what is it with his hands, I think is the
real thing. But obviously, again they don't put like a
name to any of what's going on, right right, Even so,
a villain in a movie having a typical physical features
and looking different from everybody else is just inherently ablest.
And in this case, I would say also fat phobic,
because Danny de Vito is wearing a fat suit as

(50:39):
the Penguin character. So there's just all of this again
physical mothering of his character. But this movie does something
interesting that I feel like a lot of movies don't
do when it comes to physically other movie villains, where
the movie will other the villain in some way, usually
with like very ablest under an overtones, but it's usually

(51:02):
not something that impacts this story or the character. It's
just like a trait that exists in a void for
that character. But Penguin's whole thing is that he was
discarded by his parents because he was physically different, which
led to a lifetime of isolation and resentment and longing,
which turned him into the villain that he is. So

(51:27):
you have this character who's like affected by everyone in
the community being ablest towards him, and yes, it does
turn him into a villain. I don't know. I don't
know what to make of it exactly, but it's it's tough,
I think, like, especially for the time period, Like it
feels pretty forward in that respect, where again, like the

(51:47):
fact that he looks the way he does is not
supposed to indicate that he's a villain, like I think,
especially because of the way that Tim Burton uses iconography,
like everyone looks a little bit weird it and especially
as you were sort of saying in the penguin's case,
like he is like this specifically because everyone else discriminates
against him because of the way he looks. So it's

(52:07):
not there as a storytelling shortcut or anything like that.
It's not there in the sense of, like I think
it's discussed the most with like Bond villains, where there's
always some kind of physical deformity that has no bearing
on their personality but just means look at them, they're evil,
which is not the case here. And I also feel
like the depths again, the fact that data Vito is

(52:30):
such a good and empathetic actor like goes a really
long way towards selling that point, because like then they
have the direct like rips from the elephant man, where
at first, like when he's being reintegrated into society, he's like,
I'm not a penguin, like I'm a man, I have
a name, And then when they reject him because of
the tape, and also I think because of inherent bias,

(52:51):
he's like, I am not a man, I'm a monster.
And it's like, again, it's because of the outside influences
that he is doing these bad things more so than
that being like an inherent part of his personality. Right,
I yeah, I like was it is like a tricky
I mean, it's like a tricky topic to take on
in any regard, and it's like so present in comic

(53:13):
books in general that I appreciate it, like even though
it's like certainly not like a perfect attempt to address it,
but like I thought it was like like you're saying, Caitlin,
and like it was trying to give context to like
he is not a villain because of how he looks.
He is a villain because of how society treats him
because of how it looks. And you know, it was

(53:34):
interesting and I don't know what actually we'll come back
to it. I lost it. Um Oh. I also I
saw some reads. It's tricky because it's like I certainly
see and like can acknowledge a lot of the able
is m that's built into the character. And then there's
also moments where it's like they're just trying to make

(53:56):
him look more like a penguin, and so it's like
two things kind of are happening at once. I saw
that at the time of this movie's release, and rightfully so.
I mean, and we've talked about anti Semitic tropes and
villains a number of times, and I think that, um,
some of those are certainly present in The Penguin as well.

(54:18):
The point that didn't register with me was like, here
is a villain who's being given anti Semitic styling, who
is determined to steal babies around Christmas, and you're like,
oh uh, yep, that is certainly what's happening. Um, so yeah,
I think that It's like I totally agree with Karen.

(54:38):
I think like Danny Devitto's performance is like so much
of like what humanizes this character. I like that he
gets so much context into why he is the way
he is. Danny DeVito is so perfect it's hard. He's perfect,
and Danny DeVito I think again, not to keep just
talking about his performance, but the fact that he never

(54:58):
plays also like a joke goes a long, long, long,
long long way towards this kind of coming off better,
I guess, because I think you could very easily play
it as like, Oh, he's so funny and weird look
at him, But I don't think he ever plays it
that way in the movie. Yeah, yeah, for sure. The
thing that puts me off about him the most as

(55:20):
far as his like villainous qualities, is his like predatory,
like sexual predatory behavior, where like he says stuff like, oh,
I'd like to fill her void, and he just like
is actively groping people and sexually harassing them. I viewed that,
though I didn't view that as like tying into anything

(55:43):
that had to do with his physical appearance. I viewed
that as like him getting corrupted by power the second
he gets a little bit of power, because that's like,
because like the coolest part about his character is like
he at the beginning, it's like you can totally see
like he wants to funk over Gotham because he's been
so thoroughly rejected and isolated from the society he should

(56:03):
have been growing up in but then the second he
gets a little taste of power, he immediately is like
horrible to everybody in all the expected ways, which I
think is like an awesome whatever. It's a it's a
it's a it's a good arc we know, we know
this arc um. Oh, that was what I was thinking.
It was earlier, was I feel like I mean, And

(56:24):
there's plenty of criticisms of Tim Burton. I wasn't even
going to get into them today really because we've talked
about them in previous episodes. But I do think that
like something that he dealt with well in a lot
of examples, especially in this era of his is like
taking another character and building them out to be someone
that you can empathize with, even if ultimately they're like

(56:46):
doing the wrong thing. And so for like it's like, yeah,
I guess like the penguin in Tim Burton and Mark
Water's hand because this was written by the guy who
wrote Heathers um like You've got two That is Daniel Waters.
Oh sorry, Daniel Waters. Mark Waters is his brother who
directed Mean Girls. Yeah, the whole Waters dynasty situation apparently,

(57:12):
but yeah, Daniel Waters wrote Heather's Tim Burton liked Heathers,
and he liked that Daniel Waters had no knowledge about
Batman Um and didn't care about Batman Cannon and like
it just like we're two people who were known for
dealing with humanizing misfits well and so for I think

(57:33):
that they did a pretty good job. But I also,
you know, totally understand all of the criticisms around the
penguin as well. Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't know,
it is very of its time in a way, like
even thinking about the uh, like phone sales calls that
Selena Gas where they're like, oh, if you wear this
at the office, your boss is going to invite you

(57:55):
to day late, like it's so gross, and Max's houltree
ement of her, and then even to an extent like
Bruce where he's just like he sees her and he's like, Oh,
that woman's hot. I want to talk to her more, right,
I think it's rare and maybe it doesn't even happen
for a man to come into contact with Selena and
not immediately say something, even though like I think the

(58:16):
most egregious thing is like the two security guards are like, yeah,
I don't know if I should arrest her or as
with her right, and you're just like, oh my god,
like okay, you can blow up those guys. And then
she's like, you're paid too much. Also watching her is
very cathartic. Oh yeah, absolutely. Also, Penguin turns on Catwoman

(58:38):
the second she's like, yeah, I don't want to have
sex with you or marry you, and he says, and
I quote you, lousy minx. I ought to have you spade.
You sent out all the signals, and I don't think
I like you anymore, and then he tries to kill her,
has her air lifted out of the scene. I mean,
it's an incredible, incredible way to get someone out of
your life. But also like he has no little to

(59:01):
no social interaction with people. Don't know, I'm not trying
to write off the behavior like you should not behave
that way towards anybody, but anyway, but that no, I
think that that's like part of why this character is
like kind of endured in spite of like all this
stuff is like I don't know, I feel like I
complain about modern movie villains a lot, and like the

(59:22):
movie doesn't go out of its way to like redeem
the Penguin, like he's still a villain, but you also
know enough about him that you do feel a little
bit bad or or in Karen's case, are full and
creeping um when he does die, because it's like, well, no,

(59:42):
like he you know, grew up extremely disadvantaged. He was
raised by penguins. He's not interacted with people. Um, you know,
he's dying a very horny virgin. Like there's a lot
of things that he lost the mayor mayoral campaign. His
dad was pee wee herman. He has a lot of baggage. Wait,
his dad is played by Paul Rubens. Yeah, I didn't know,

(01:00:05):
and Karen wasn't lying. Doug Jones is in this movie.
He plays a clown. Oh my gosh, he's the he's
the quote unquote thin clown. Oh why I mean described
Doug Jones in a better way. It's true, Like it's
right there, Oh my goodness. But like but but but
by the time Penguin dies, I just like I feel
like it's kind of a weird lost art in big

(01:00:27):
movies to have uh, you know, poetic villain that. Yeah,
it's like they're they're so clearly a path you can
see where he his life would have been fine or
like he would have been redeemed him some way, and
that's what makes that storyline powerful, that he is not
on it or did not manage to get on it
right and then like the first person to like accept

(01:00:48):
him into society. It happened to be like kind of
the most evil guy um where like nobody around him
has his best interests at his heart. Yeah, he was
only doing it because he was being blackmailed. And he
also was like, oh, I can use him as a
political pond so I can build my power plant, right
like if if I don't know, I mean it's like Penguin.

(01:01:08):
By the end, you're like, yeah, he's the villain. You know,
he's not going to make it out of the movie.
But but also we're frowning and it's sad, and he's
supposed to be thirty three years old. Yes, the last
thing I want to say about I feel like I
love I think almost across the board really like the

(01:01:29):
like political like corrupt politics commentary in this movie and
like those areas of the Penguin. I kind of am
like kind of above criticism for me, where it's like
commenting on how like people are so influenced by media
narratives that make them feel like good people, where it's
like these are the same people that have rejected and
been afraid of Penguin his whole life, but then there's

(01:01:51):
this false media narrative constructed by the penguin to be
like I'm good now you should feel so bad to
have been so horrible to me in the past. And
they're like, yeah, we love the penguin, now we're going
to vote for him. And then like he's like, oh, whatever,
fuck you. Um, that's absolutely true. Yeah, I was not.
I keep interrupting you, but I was thinking about that too,

(01:02:11):
Like in the scene where he goes to his parents
grave site and it's like a whole like media circus
out there, Like there are a lot of journalists, there's
a huge crowd that all are just wanting to gawk
at this yeah, and it's like he's, uh, so there's
so much about this movie that you're like, oh, it's
like rejecting all these things where it's like he's crafting

(01:02:33):
his own redemption arc while being completely unchanged, and like
people buy it because and people always buy ship like that.
They want to Yeah, are we to understand that Penguin
killed his own parents, like he knew who they were
and at some point went and killed them and that's
why they're dead or did I just kind of fill
in some blanks. I think they just died. Yeah, I

(01:02:54):
didn't think that he had he had killed them, Okay,
but well that's my headcanon that he did already know
who they were and he went and killed them, killed
Pee Wee. I mean that's going to dock him a
few points in my book. You really can't be killing
pee Wee Herman. But also like the fact that they
brought Pee Wee Herman back for the Gotham TV show
specifically because they're like, we gotta get him in. It's

(01:03:17):
a great cameo. Anyway, He's Cannon, he is, He's that
Makann and know he is. It makes me Also Jan
Hooks is in this movie. I love Jan Hooks Okay,
so oh yeah. But then and then like just like that,
they're like running him on this like law and order campaign,
like just all this stuff where it's like, yeah, I
love that. The people of Gotham are also always kind

(01:03:39):
of like not like complicit in the downfall of their city,
but like they kind of fall for everything, and you're
like well, guys, I mean you really should have been
reading between the lines on that whole Penguin redemption narrative.
But you know, I guess you're gonna get attacked by
a clown again just desserts, but like the like, oh

(01:04:00):
or city is so full of crime narrative also like
something that we see a lot in our contemporary society
and it's not always true. But yeah, can we talk
about before we get to because Catwoman, I know it's
like going to consume so much of the discussion and
rightfully so. But uh, I was reading about like the
creative production of this movie and a lot of the

(01:04:20):
back and forth that happened between Tim Burton and Daniel Waters,
and something that I liked because because Max Shrek. I
wouldn't have known this because I don't know about comic books,
but is an original character added to this movie was
not part of Batman. Cannon added him in specifically named
after the actor Max Shrek, who played I liked that.

(01:04:46):
You know, they wanted to have like you're kind of
like political villain to to counter to the Penguin, which
is like more kind of a classic comic book e
villain um. And they said that they wanted to do
that specifically so that they like decate there, like, oh,
the greatest evil is often just like an elected public
official or like a business person, and it's true, and

(01:05:08):
it's true. I just like it ages very well in
that regard. I really, I really liked it. And I
mean I don't like the character of Max Shrek is
so despicable, but like it just like it fits in Gotham.
I would prefer that to like another cartoony kind of villain.
And Christopher Walkin plays the hell out of him. Oh yeah,
Oh he looks so goofy. He looks great. Yeah, like

(01:05:32):
it's amazing. He's hot. He's oh my god, Christopher Walkin
is hot. And then every time everyone in this movie
is hot, and then we're always like, what happens on
the boat and Christopher walking what happened? Yeah, I cannot
forget that that he probably does know how Natalie would died.
I can never forget that. TikTok, you know, you gotta
let us know you're getting up there. And he hasn't
dropped that on the Dune to press tour. He's like

(01:05:59):
he's getting to There's been too many true crime podcasts
about Natalie would. I just want to say this now,
this is the best Christopher Rock and I can do.
And there I was. I love it. It's perfect, It's perfect.
All right. Shall we talk about Catwoman? Okay? That costume,

(01:06:21):
Oh my god, it's hot. Jeem So my note, my
notes are all over the place with her. But I
guess just like, okay, generally speaking, or to kick us off,
first of all, well, I love Catwoman. Incredible character, amazing.
Michelle Peiffer as Catwoman is iconic, just like she's the

(01:06:43):
best one, so good. What I like about the Selena
Slashcatwoman character is I mean, she's contextualized much like Penguin
is where you get the sense that Selena is constantly
being undermined by men in her life and her mom um.

(01:07:07):
She's constantly being disappointed by men in her life. She
is inundated with pressure to please men and kind of
adhere to rigid gender roles, you know, all of this
ship that she's dealing with. That like she's literally like
putting a pink collar job. The whole thing where she
keeps saying like I'm an assistant, it's like a secretary,

(01:07:30):
Like that whole distinction is so good and every yeah,
everyone keeps calling her secretary right, And then like at work,
when she tries to offer some input in a meeting,
she's shot down. Shrek doesn't want to hear what she
has to say. He says something like, you know, we
haven't properly how to feel that way about Fiona too,
and she I mean, exactly, okay, sorry, I thought love

(01:07:55):
was only true in fairy tales, but tributity lies within.
So everything about the point is Shrek undermines Selena. And
then she goes home. You see a bit of her
interior life. She has all of these messages on her
answering machine from people again either like disappointing her, undermining her,

(01:08:19):
like laying on this pressure was kind of like societal
patriarchal pressure. And then when she goes back to the
office and is murdered by her boss, that's obviously like
the catalyst that turns her into catwoman. You know, Skimble
Shanks is like Miamio and she's like a catwoman, and

(01:08:41):
he's like back from work, back from the clown train,
I work on um. And then she criticizes skimble Shanks
for not paying rent, which if true, is wild because
he we are to understand that he has a job.
That's right. He's one of the few cats that makes money,
so he should be paying rent. He's rich. Um, he
works on a train. What is it going to use

(01:09:02):
all that cat money for? He's a cat and he
takes it so seriously. That's the whole song is about
how seriously he takes his job and exactly how he
does it. He's like, I'm on time every day and
the train just kind of can't run without me. I
saw it at the Pantages a couple of weeks ago,
and he didn't tap in the stage adaptation. Heck, I

(01:09:28):
know Mr must Files tapped, and well Mr m is
a classic tapper, but he's like not a tapper in
the movie, but he is a tamper on stage. I
knew that, but I didn't know that there was no
Skimble Shanks tapping. I mean, it was a lovely dance,
but I did walk away disappointed. It's a lot more
of like this. It's yes now is Skimble Shanks taking

(01:09:52):
up space? Of course, during the number he's taking up
He's taking up space the way that Sebastian Maniscalco does
during his specials. He's back and forth back and forth,
like but but it just wasn't quite the tap number
I was expecting. Yeah, I'm sorry, Catwoman. Yes, okay, another
little context defect. And again I don't want to get

(01:10:15):
in the habit of hand to get to dim Burton
too hard. He has a lot of baggage. But I
guess when they were developing the scriptum According to scholarly
journal Wikipedia, Burton's only instruction to Daniel Watters writing the
script was that Catwoman had to be more than a
sexy vixen and like so he it was a definite

(01:10:36):
point of like we need to understand how she gets
from zero to Catwoman. It's not just sexy lady and
suit do crime and be a girlfriend. Which is why
I think she really works in this movie, like she
has more to do. Like I think that's kind of
the fatal flaw of like the other like film Catwoman
that we've seen where they don't have as much to
do or there's kind of too much assumed that we

(01:10:56):
would know about her already, that she falls kind of flat.
That this line is like she rules, I understand her,
talked about him like she's great and she has like
a real struggle like I'm trying to I I are. Honestly,
most of the Robert Pattins in Batman movie, I know,
I liked it, but most of it's already left my brain.
But Colin Farrell a little the strongest impression in that movie. Yeah,

(01:11:20):
I liked him, and I love Zoe Kravitz, but it's
like her Catwoman was so cool that it wasn't like, oh,
I wonder if she's going to get out of this.
It's like, well, she's so cool, she's probably gonna get
out of it. Michelle Peiffer's Catwoman. I genuinely was like,
I don't know what's going to happen now. She's very chaotic. Yeah,
the stakes are so high for her, and you know
that right away, and you also like, I guess I'm

(01:11:40):
curious what you both thought about this, because I I,
you know, I think that we're to believe that like
Selena is like unraveling as the story goes on, She's
like losing her you know, grip on reality. But I
thought that for the most part, that was like well
contextualized enough that it didn't super bother me. Like when

(01:12:02):
she goes nuclear on her house, I was like, yeah, totally.
There comes a day you just died and came back
like of course, yeah, I'm not going to call that
overly emotional behavior. I think it makes sense, right, because
she's reacting to all of this stuff that she had
been dealing with prior to that, the most drastic being

(01:12:22):
that she was murdered by her boss. But like she
to me, I see her transformation as like an extremely
liberating and empowering moment for her because she comes in,
she destroys all of the pink stuff, the her dollhouse,
her stuffed animals, She's spray painting things black to make

(01:12:44):
like her house goth. She pulls out like the one
black leather coat she has and she's like, this is
my outfit now. So she's like rejecting femininity, like traditional
femininity in this way. But I don't think the movie
is saying like feminine things bad, Like yeah, I don't
think so either. It's more just like she's I think,
fed up with the expectation to adhere to very rigid,

(01:13:10):
hyper feminine gender roles and she's like, funck this, Like
I'm going to break out of this prison basically of
gender role constraints and unleash havoc on the world. What
I don't quite get about her character is while I
think she has a really cool internal conflict like you

(01:13:30):
mentioned Jamie, as far as like she's struggling with this
dual identity, she doesn't really know who she has become.
This transformation is like really messing with her mentally and emotionally.
Her external conflict doesn't really make any sense to me.
She wants to take down Batman for why. I assume

(01:13:51):
she wanted to take down Max s Trek and knew
that and felt that Batman would be an obstacle for
that because like obviously what she was trying to do
is assassinate of his This man basically is not going
to allow that to happen on his watch no matter what.
That makes more sense, That's how because I was like
a little unclear in that at first, but then I
was like, oh, Selena is one thing I actually really

(01:14:11):
like about her is she goes full girl boss babe,
but she like she is like very strategic in the
way she does stuff where it's like if she has
to manipulate, like emotionally manipulate Batman in one scene to
like neutralize him temporarily and then go over to the penguin,
you know, like get what she needs from him, and
it's like all very strategic and like Batman is such

(01:14:34):
a like I was gonna say loser. He's not a loser,
but like he's so like lawful good that you know,
and his whole thing is he doesn't kill people and
she straight up does some I know, which I think
Batman heads don't Like, I don't care it works in
the movie. I'm not that mad about it. I like
that Daniel Waters, like he has so many quotes about

(01:14:58):
being like saying like, I don't care about pleasing fans.
Comic book fans mean nothing to me, Like they shouldn't
let me kill Selena. But it makes more sense if
Batman kills people, and you're just like, man damn Daniel
to borrow a phrase, Um, he just he just doesn't
give a rat's ass when it comes to great which

(01:15:20):
I do. I think that mores honestly more uh screenwriters
for like big franchises, they should hire more people who
don't give a ship because that's the only way you
get new stuff. Tony Gilroy, this is why Andor is
good because he hates Star Wars. Really, I hate Star Wars. Yeah,
and is so good. It's like I'm talking, I'm gonna
watch it still. There's an entire arc about the prison complex.

(01:15:42):
Like it's wild interesting, it's really really good. Yeah, maybe
less fans should be hired. And this is how I'm
going to get to write a big franchise movie. I'm like,
I don't know, you should hire me. I don't know anything. Um,
but like Batman is so like there you know, all
the obvious observations about Batman been made also on this show,
uh where it's like he's a billionaire and her, but like,

(01:16:05):
but I think for this that doesn't even really come
into it that much. Those are the kind of obvious
criticisms of him. But like that scene at the end
where they're like he's coming in lawful good and he's
like we just need to like bring him to the
police and it'll be fine. And Selena is like, what
the funk are you talking about? Like this guy lives

(01:16:26):
above the law and so do we, and he's like, no,
cops are amazing. I love God and p D and like, Commissioner,
my only friend, my only friend is a cops are
I was like, God, so pathetic, But like whatever, But
I just I just loved how like I don't know,

(01:16:47):
like in a way that totally fits like cartoonishly explicit
that conversation is and that he doesn't win her over
like that was I was sort of like nervous that
whole scene of like, oh God, is he going to
win her over? Is she gonna be like you're right,
let's just bring him downtown and like get him locked
up or another fear. This was like a Spider Man

(01:17:08):
two based fear, whereas like is Batman going to get
the killing blow on Max Shrek or something? Because I
always forget Batman's not supposed to kill people, So I
was like, oh, is he going to get to do it?
That would suck because it's so clearly Selena's kids to
do it. But none of that happens. Batman is literally
like knocked out for for Selena to get her killing

(01:17:29):
blow in. Honestly, his part in the final scenes is
so funny because he gets knocked out and then you
see him sort of like in the distance sort of
standing up and like here around and see what's going
on as these six penguins, uh score the body of
the penguin into the water, like, can you imagine being
Bruce Wayne in that moment, being like, huh, like what's
going on? Oh, the penguins are like having a funeral service,
and then Batmans goes like, oh, I gotta go. And

(01:17:55):
then Batman goes over to like the rubble and like
clear some of it away, and he's ease Max Shrek
just as like a yeah, like a burnt to a
crisp dead dude. Catwoman's nowhere. It's really good. It's awesome.
But I liked I totally agree with what you guys
are saying about Catwoman and her I guess spectrum of femininity,

(01:18:15):
because I think that's one of the fun things about
this movie, and I think something that will be relatable
to anyone who has ever sort of questioned how to
present gender in any way. Where the scene where she
saves that woman from being raped on the street, she's like, oh,
you make it so easy, always waiting for someone to
come save you. I think that's like a sort of
thing that we all wrestle with, where it's like, even

(01:18:37):
if you want to present in a very traditionally feminine matter,
or that's what you like more and what you want
to do, Like the stereotypes that have been laiden onto.
These particular aesthetics are so loaded and what people tell
you about like when, for instance, like someone is sexually assaulted,
like so much of the language is about like, oh, well,

(01:18:58):
what were you doing in that situation? So yeah, where
I don't know, it's it's interesting to watch her struggle
with that. Like they obviously don't go all the way
into like just talking about gender politics in this movie,
but it's a very interesting thing to touch on in general,
because like the iconography of Catwoman in this movie, where

(01:19:18):
she turns into this like all leather like girls dominatrix style,
like has such an impact on how we now perceive
like quote unquote strong female characters because they're like, oh,
like they have to be sexy but also shoot a gun.
And it's like, no, like that's not what constitutes like
strength for any character, or like you don't have to

(01:19:39):
present in one way or anything or the other to
be considered strong. But anyway, right, because her sexualization is
something I was grappling with because she when she transforms
into Catwoman, she becomes like I would say, one of
the hottest movie characters of all times, absolutely a sexual
awakening for were I think most people who feel sexual feelings.

(01:20:03):
One of the IMDb trivia things for this is that
people kept stealing like the one sheet of her like
because and like to the point that they had to
like start putting like cops out to watch like busses
and like signage post and ship to make sure they
would stop stealing them our tax dollars at work, people
guarding sexual images of Michelle Peifer like. A friend of

(01:20:28):
the show, Sammy Junio had this to say, Michelle Peifer
as Catwoman is a gay awakening for a lot of
queer folks. And gay awakening is also what I announced
into my empty apartment when I get out of bed
for the day. So Sammy making a Google but I did,

(01:20:49):
I mean my my feeling on it was like I
understand why, Like it almost feels like the sort of
thing where for me it really works in the context
of this movie, and I understand how like people could
take the most base interpretation of it and lift it
for other movies in a way that is like net negative.
But I don't think that that's Michelle Feiffer Catwoman's fault.

(01:21:12):
I feel like, no, no, it's a very like Mr
Hollywood takeaway to be like, Okay, so you know she
people really liked this character and it's probably because she
was wearing a skin tight suit and had a gun
and it's like, well, that was a part of it,
but also I like, but also the other stuff. It's
not nothing. It was definitely a good chunk. But also

(01:21:32):
it's like the character was well written. She was really
strongly motivated and like, yeah, I sort of viewed like
her being sexualized. I don't think it's ever like endorsed
by the movie explicitly, like especially when it's um Shrek
or the Penguin and and I don't know, I felt
like her sexualization at least with like the outfit and

(01:21:54):
her behavior was more like she's like all of a
sudden confident, like sexual confident and like into herself in
a more about her Yeah, And I liked that, like
the visual representation of that. And obviously it's a very
like you know, Western beauty standards visual interpretation of that,

(01:22:15):
but I thought it worked that it's like, oh, this
is like a woman who has felt so pushed down
by all these different forces and now she's finally like,
oh I'm fucking hot and cool. And I can like
do whatever I want and that's cool, that's fun is
and that's like, that's what I was grappling with. Where Like,
on one hand, you could easily argue that her sexualization

(01:22:36):
is very much on her own terms. This is how
she chooses to present this is a manifestation of her
newfound confidence. But on the other hand, you could argue
that it was the male screenwriters and directors who chose
to present a female character in this way. But but
because like her being sexualized in this story isn't predatory

(01:23:01):
in terms of like the way the camera views her.
It's not like male gazzy linger e cinematography. It's more
just like and this is how the character is now
presenting it pretty objectively in my opinion, So yeah, I
was like pretty fine with it. Yeah, I totally agree
with that as also objectively into it because it's like

(01:23:23):
Michelle Phiffer and also her performance there is a really
good It was from like I think five or so
years ago for the anniversary of this movie. It was
a really nice piece by uh right. We've cited many
times on this show. Angelica, Jade Bastian and Vulture wrote
this nice ode to Michelle Pheiffer as Catwoman, and just

(01:23:45):
like how her like will link it in the description
of this episode, she she directs you to several ways
that Michelle Peiffer was talked about in the press where
I think that also, and this gets me into like
Lolita podcast brain kind of like how I think a
lot of like the takeaway of how Catwoman was presented
was shaped by how the media talked about it versus

(01:24:07):
what actually happens in the movie, because all, yeah, right,
where you know, in context, she's taking control of her
own sexuality and presenting the way she wants to present.
But the way that, like she was profiled at the time,
the way she was talked about in the media, was
very it like had nothing to do with Michelle Pfeifer's performance,

(01:24:29):
which I think is like really awesome. Her performance is great, Yeah,
And I mean that's just very indicative of the way
women tend to be perceived, because people tend to value
women for very specific things like their physical appearance and
not their skills or artistic talents or brains. Yeah, what

(01:24:54):
do we think about the bat cat relation? I love it,
I don't hate it. Um it feels a little like
half baked kind of. But it seemed to me that
Bruce likes Selena after like he meets her in Tricks
because I think he thinks she's fierce and powerful and

(01:25:17):
cool and that's what he's drawn to her confidence. Yeah. Yeah,
he literally wants her to like step on him, like
it does kind of like that's the kind of he's
like this like shy weirdo. That's like he came to
this super freak party hoping you'd be here. Like she
wants him to step on him, and she would, but
she's busy. Yeah, she's booked it busy. She's busy killing

(01:25:39):
Max Strick. She's literally like, there's a bedroom in the
other room if you want to like get this done. Yeah.
I love how horny she is. And he's like, whoa, whoa,
what we had superhero movies could be He was so horny.
It's so they're so like so funny. The scene where
they like first fight and she's like, you can't hit me,
I'm a woman. He's like, okay, so you're right. I'm

(01:26:00):
so sorry, and then she kicks him in the faces.
I wrote all of this down because I love this good.
It's great. That's the first fight between them. They're fighting,
she's holding her own but he knocks her down and
then she says, how could you I'm a woman, and
then he's like, oh, I'm sorry, and then he like
goes to help her up, but it was a trick.
She kicks him. She gets the upper hand and knocks

(01:26:23):
him over a ledge, so he's like dangling there, holding
on by her whip. And then she was like, as
I was saying, I'm a woman and can't be taken
for granted, and that's when she says, life's a bit now,
so am I, And we're like, She's got a lot
of great lines. It's really really fun. I really do

(01:26:43):
like how like cartoony the script is even at the
beginning where it's all of her like single lady lines
are so weird but funny, where she's like it just
it's literally sounds like a comic strip where you walk
in you're like, honey, I'm home. Oh wait, I don't

(01:27:03):
have a husband. I'm like, that's a cavy strap, and
then like the single cam like laugh track. Yeah, it's
it's so especially because they like go so hard against
it and that in the rest of the movie that
it like totally works. I loved that she uses the
clown taser at the end. She kept the clowns taser

(01:27:24):
um planning payoff baby um the only thing that kind
of like pinged for me. And we just talked about
something similar on the Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead
episode where a female character's wait gets just kind of mentioned.
There's a moment where Selena is like, she and Bruce

(01:27:44):
are talking and they're kind of commenting on the news coverage,
like the media coverage of Batman and Catwoman, and Selena
says something like, oh, you know, there's like this rumor
going around that Catwoman is thought to weigh a hundred
and forty pounds, as if she thinks that's too much
and she doesn't weigh that much, and she resents that

(01:28:04):
people think she's she weighs more than she actually is.
Really jumped out in that moment because you're I honestly
was like confused by that line at first, because I
was like, what is even being said, because that's just
like it's whatever I mean that I do. We've talked
about that before too, was like that that's like the
kind of ship that gives young people eating disorders, as

(01:28:28):
someone who famously had my my e D cranked up
to an eleven by an offhand line in a Family
Guy episode, Uh, you really can't be it's like the
numbers specifically that really bugs me where it's like, yeah,
I don't know, Yeah, that that was like a very
bizarre one. It's just a lazy choice to make like

(01:28:50):
the one female character in the movie mention her weight
or be concerned about her weight. And as these movies
always do act in such a way that women being
concerned about their image and their weight just happens in
a void has nothing to do with the societal pressure

(01:29:10):
we place on women for how they look. So yeah,
that line, that line bumped me out. There's a really
funny um I stand it to you, Caitlin, there's a
really Dani Schwartz like three years ago, Live tweeted this
entire movie and also called out that line of like
what are they saying here? Like truly was oh no,

(01:29:33):
And then if you think about it for a second,
you're like, oh, I guess brain where it was like
that messaging was kind of like approaching and all time
high because we're in like the what is that Kate
moss quote whatever that era food doesn't taste as good
as skinny field or whatever. The fuck? Yeah? Remember we

(01:29:53):
were ever you know the words that shaped and haunted us? Um? Yeah,
so yeah, I I also clocked that. Unfortunately it's one
line and doesn't really come up again. Yeah. The last
I think one of the last things I have is
um the scene where she goes on the date with Bruce.

(01:30:15):
She makes the first move and it's intense. Okay, it
is possibly a surprise kiss because she lunges at him.
She does lunge at him. However, he has just said
that he wants to kill, wants to kiss. So I
felt like, maybe I'm giving Catwoman a pass on that one.
She came in hot. Yeah, but I'm gonna give her.
She came in hot. She was like, I cannot wait

(01:30:38):
to kiss you. Will you let me? And she's like
I see that, and I raise you. I'm going to
kiss you by pouncing on you like a cat. She's like,
I might actually eat you. Um, but yeah, I don't know.
I think that like their relationship, Like it doesn't. I
just it's like so nice to see horny super horny

(01:31:00):
woman visibility. I love it incredibly horny. It's good. Yeah,
I do like because we talked about the trope of
a woman using a frying pan as a weapon. She
uses a frying pan, but it's to smash up her
own apartment. I liked it, followed by the line where
she says, I don't know about you, miss Kitty, but

(01:31:23):
I feel so much yummier, iconic, iconic, so good. I'm
gonna start saying that to Flee Um and he's going
to love every damn second of it, or I'm disowning.
Oh the stakes are high. Yeah, the stakes are high
from Mr Flee I will say every time I watched
this movie. So right after she transforms into Catwoman and

(01:31:44):
then she's on the prowl, as you might say, on
the streets of Gotham, the first thing she does as
Catwoman is to save a woman from being sexually assaulted
by Oops, one of the few people of color in
the movie, which unfortunately is very in line with like
Tim because his movies are so aggressively white that he's

(01:32:07):
even defended it um, which was like, why would I
play non white people in my movie? And we're like Tim,
what did he say? Wait? Was was I'd have to
look up the exact quote. We've discussed it on the
show before. I think that this was around because he
it was like to the point where he had to
like walk this back. This was Did it have something

(01:32:27):
to do with the Miss Peregrine's Peculiar Children House Peregrine
Home for Peculiar Children? Yeah, okay. He said this to
writer Rachel Simon in and it was on the Miss
Peregrine um Press Stork, he said. Quote. Nowadays people are
talking about it more, he says, regarding on screen diversity.

(01:32:50):
But quote, things either call for things or they don't.
I remember back when I was a child watching The
Brady Bunch and they started to get all politically correct,
like okay, let's have an Asian child and a black child.
I used to get more offended by that than just
I grew up watching black sploitation movies, right, and I
said that's great. I didn't go like, Okay, there should

(01:33:10):
be more white people in these movies. Unquote it it's
just like the most white. This is the same as
like every time anyone complains about their people clear casting
anything like Star Wars or something, and the logic of like, oh,
they can have their own movies and it's like no,

(01:33:31):
like this is not you can't talk like this. You
can't don't stop stop talking, like shut your mouth, Tim Burton.
So that's like, especially remembering him making those comments, like
seeing that you're just like this is like a very
intentional joy. This is intentional absolutely. So Catwoman is saving

(01:33:52):
another woman from being sexually assaulted and then the woman's like,
oh my gosh, thank you. But then Catwoman kind of
victim blames the woman and it's like, well, you make
it so easy. You're always just waiting around for some
batman to save you. And so it's always at this
point in the movie when you see her save when
you see Catwoman save this other person, and I'm always like, oh,

(01:34:13):
she's about to go on this like vigilante almost like
the movie Teeth, where she's like like, I'm just gonna
protect women and save women from these predatory men. And
I always think that that's the direction the Catwoman character
is going to go in, but she quickly abandons any
sort of like ally ship to other women and then

(01:34:33):
just like goes after Shrek, which I don't know, I mean,
it's just I guess it's just like me having certain
once and wishes for the Catwoman character, but I certainly
would have liked for that to be the direction that
she went in. But like, it's sort of the same
point as like when I mentioned this scene earlier where

(01:34:53):
it's like you can understand why that is her reaction
to saving that woman, Like it's not right obviously, but
the way that she, like, the social conditioning around her
basically is telling her this, and it's also why she
rejects that kind of more feminine aesthetic as Cat Woman. Yeah.
I honestly wasn't like super bugged by that, Like I

(01:35:17):
think it makes a point. Yeah, yeah, I see what
you mean. Yeah, I think the only the only thing
that I felt like in this movie was like characterizing
the was it like ice princess, or like characterizing her
as such a bimbo, very dizzy, as a as a
proud bimbo and a bimbo apologist. I just feel like, yeah,
making her just kind of a classic bimbo. Yeah, it's

(01:35:39):
a little cruel. Yeah, I mean it's such a small
part of the movie, but unless she gets murdered, Yeah,
it's always like a while like a movie where it's like, oh,
we can only have one woman we're really thinking about
in the movie, like we can't characterize more than one
that would be whatever. I feel like the only other

(01:36:00):
woman besides Catwoman and the Ice Princess who has any
significant screen time. And it's not as though this woman
has a lot. But there's a million of penguins. She
has a little dog love her. She seems to be
one of penguins, like right hand minions. She's she's high
up in the ranks. What's going on with her? But

(01:36:22):
she doesn't speak until the very end, And it's her
who's like giving the countdown. Is like of like, oh,
the penguins are going to reach their destination and team
minus fifteen seconds. She's really just there for fun. Yeah.
I loved her. She's there for love of the game.
She is like droning through narrating the height of the

(01:36:42):
action of the movie. She's like, the penguins are going
in a different direction, looks like there's coming towards us.
I just that's the kind of like Tim Burton character
I really like. Of just like a woman who is
bored by something very exciting that's always so fun. I uh, yeah,

(01:37:04):
I liked her. The dog is so cute. Yeah, it's
like a little busted. It's very cute. It's a good dog.
It's a good boy. Um, feminist icon. The duck Boat, penguin,
My god, the boat. We haven't even talked about the
duck Boat. It's so good. It's so it's so I

(01:37:25):
love like, it's perfect when a movie is just like
and we just talked about the many ways in which
Tim Burton is a relic at this point, but I
do love to watch a director absolutely abuse a big budget.
It's so fun like, it's so like the It's cannon

(01:37:45):
that he was just like, no performance artists, Let's go bigger,
let's go full circus at the zoo. For no reason.
We need animatronic penguins. We need people penguins, and we
need penguin penguins. There's nowhere around it. Um. The animal
rights stuff in this movie, we can't go there because
Michelle Fiber put a real bird in her mouth. So

(01:38:07):
we wish that we're the best and hope it went
on to thrive. Um. But it's just like, this movie
is so The duck Boat. The duck Boat is wonderful.
I love it. I'm obsessed with the duck Boat. The train,
Why is there a train. I do want to shout
out the penguins. They're so cute. They are so cute.

(01:38:29):
They're very good. They frowned when the penguin dies. So cute.
It's so sad. They're sad for their friends. They're literally
it's it's literally like if Grew died, what would happen.
It's exactly like if Crew died, they would be beside themselves.
They would not the Canada that they are like especially

(01:38:50):
devoted to Grew because they've had like other masters, right, yeah,
don't Yeah, they've had a lot of They've worked for
a lot of people, but grew as special to that.
But they love Grew okay, because Grew takes all their
boxes where It's like usually their bosses are really evil
and also abusive towards them, but grew as evil and
nice to them, so they love Grew. He takes care

(01:39:12):
of them. Okay. They kind of grew up together. They
grew up together. They grew they grew up and they
grew up together. There was I was sitting, Okay, this
is my last tangent of the episode. I promised I
was taking a mega bus from Rhode Island to New weekend,
because yeah, I'm kind of a fucking sleb. But I

(01:39:36):
was sitting next to this college student who was talking
on the phone with one of his boys for the
duration of the bus. It was it was really long
and obnoxious, but it was just like he was such
a bro with like three brain cells that he was
really like getting some good quips and every once and
again like he was just he was objectifying his classmates

(01:39:57):
the whole call boy. But at one point he was like, yeah,
you know, Christina, she kind of really glue. How do
I she glew up over the summer? Did I say that? Right?
She blew up? And then you could hear the guy
on the other line and be like, yeah, no, I
get it. And then he just like I was like,
oh god, that's incredible. She blew up. He couldn't think

(01:40:19):
of the word glowed amazing. He was literally coming from
Brown University. It was just how we get Max Trex
out there blew up over the summer. It was nasty.
Al Right, Well, Batman Returns? Does anyone have anything else
to say about Batman Returns? Um There was supposed to

(01:40:41):
be a sequel where Catwoman Michelle Fifefer. Catwoman had her
own own story. It was supposed to also be done
with Daniel Waters and Tim Burton Um and it follows
her to a like more Las Vegas e location. It
sounds like it would have been great, but it never happened.
Damn it. Here's my last thing to say. Well, I

(01:41:03):
guess I have like two less things. One of them
is I do think it's funny that people complain about
like Batman not being in this movie enough, because ultimately
it is a Catwoman movie, Like Batman is fairly incidental
to what goes on in the film. This is a
movie about Catwoman and the penguin, like it's their movie.
They are the two far more strongly motivated characters, and

(01:41:26):
Batman is just like, well, I'm Batman, so I have
to stop these people. But yeah, exactly, like he is
called to the scene, like he did not create the scene.
I kind of like that this movie is like comfortable
with Batman being a little bit boring, Like yeah, because
I don't even think Batman is like obviously he's like
not a boring character, but I like that this movie

(01:41:48):
is sort of like, well, he's not the most interesting
character in the movie, and we're comfortable with that he returns,
but you know, kind of to a more incidental degree
than you would imagine, Right, I totally agree with that.
I love My second point is that dating bed is hot.
We should recognize that more. I think as a society. Absolutely,
his energy, Oh my god, he's hot. He's a socialist,

(01:42:12):
his politics are kind of immaculate. What is hotter than that? Yeah? An,
he's single, I think, so not divorced, but I guess
I don't know, Like I know that he and Perlin
are like separated, but they're not divorced. I don't find
that disqualifying. Yeah, if he comes up, but I was like,
if he if he comes up on Bumble, yeah obviously, no,

(01:42:36):
no question. Yeah, I'll keep an eye out for him
on Riya. Yeah I'm on Riya. Have I had any luck?
They're not one iota. I've still not used a dating app.
So I was just throwing Bumble out there because I
know it's exists. Yeah, I was on one of them.

(01:42:57):
I want on dating apps for like a month and
then I was like, I don't think I enjoy this,
and so I stopped. They're not great anyway. We saund
like Selena Kyle at the beginning of the movie of
her like it's a good it's a good note to
wrap up on because this movie is so horny. So
now a little bit exactly does the movie pass the

(01:43:19):
Bechdel test? I agree with you, Jamie, I would argue.
When Selena talks to her female cat whose name we
know because it's miss Kitty, that passes because here's the conversation.
Selena comes home, cat goes me ow. Selena says, Miss
Kitty back more sexual escapades. You refuse to share. So
they've talked before establishing a relationship. They have a close bond,

(01:43:43):
although miss Kitty is withholding. Miss Kitty says miaw. Selena says,
drink your dinner. Kat says me ow. Selena says, what
how can anyone be so pathetic? Yes, to you, I
seem pathetic, but I'm a working girl. I gotta pay. Then, yes, Selena,
I mean, and that passes the Becktel tests. That passes.

(01:44:06):
I don't know what to tell you. It passes flying.
I feel comfortable with that. I feel ecstatic about that.
Is there much else outside of that? There is a
brief interaction between Catwoman and the Ice Princess, but they
don't actually speak to each other on screen. Yeah, at
least not really. It would have been fun if she
could have had a little tete a tete with Penguins

(01:44:30):
board associate. But I don't even know if we if
that character get the name. I just really liked her,
So Wikipedia just lists her as the poodle lady. Okay,
love that. Yeah, that's great. I support that Ice Princess
is nice. She seemed really nice. I would have loved
to get lunch with her, sweetie pie. Yeah, she was great. Absolutely,

(01:44:53):
R I P T I P. But who among us
has not wanted to vault into the giant tree at
Cavilla Center. It's true, It's true. And you know, like
if I've got to go at the hands of Danny
de Vito, you know it's going to be memorable for sure,
exactly exactly. People will talk about it after the fact. Okay,

(01:45:15):
So how about our nipple scale, though, which is a
scale of zero to five nipples, and which we rate
the movie based on looking at it through an intersectional
feminist lens. I'm gonna go like three and a half
of this. I might be bringing some of my bias
into that score, because I do love this movie so much.

(01:45:38):
As we've discussed, there are there's some things about the
coding of the penguin character. It's able is m and
anti Semitism that is so present in the coding of
so many villains. This movie is kind of no exception,

(01:45:59):
but there it's intended or not. It's like it's worth acknowledging. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um,
a few other like little missteps here and there. But
so the screenwriter Daniel Waters was brought in after another
writer who I think wrote the screenplay for the first
Batman movie, Sam Ham. Sam Ham, his name is Sam Ham.

(01:46:24):
That's going to bring some baggage with it if you
grow up at that name. He was exactly. He was
originally involved in the development of the sequel of Batman
Returns and had written I don't know if he wrote
a full draft or if he was just sort of
like outlining the story, but basically he was replaced by
Daniel Waters or he just like his involvement didn't happen

(01:46:46):
the whole way through the development process. But he had
written a version of Catwoman that Daniel Waters changed because
Sam Ham's version of Catwoman was just like a quote
fetishy sexual fantasy fem faetale. Daniel Waters changed her to
a and again this is pulling from wiki Pete here

(01:47:08):
scholarly journal um changed to a working class, disenchanted secretary,
writing her as an allegory of contemporary feminism, right, And
I feel like the movie kind of nails. It works,
and we're speaking of white feminism from the early nineties, yes,
but spice Girls feminism. But it works. But it works

(01:47:30):
at least for this movie, certainly doing more than a
lot of superhero movies are doing now still to this day.
If there's a woman in it, it's feminist, right, right,
And they're like, yeah, sure, it's like, let's just have
her say some sort of T shirt equips at some
point and then Thor is Natalie Portman now until she doesn't,

(01:47:51):
And that's awesome. No, not really, Yeah, don't worry, not really.
I didn't see that. We would never let a woman
be thre. So I just appreciate the movie takes a
lot of time to characterize the Selena Kyle slash Catwoman character.
It gives her an internal life. We see her at work,

(01:48:12):
we see her at home, we understand all of the
context for why she becomes Catwoman, and just all of
the societal pressures that she's fighting against. Could she have
been more of an ally to other women? Yes, but
I think you know, look, this is also how long
does this movie take over? This this takes place three days? Yeah,

(01:48:34):
I think you know she would have gotten there. You know,
she just needed a little more time. She just needed
more time. That's what she's doing now, exactly. Yeah, she's
still but shell Fiber Catwoman is still canonically out there, right, absolutely,
so I'm sure she does all sorts of incredible The
character she plays, an antman, is actually Catwoman. Everything about

(01:48:55):
that interesting, right, She's an antman? What a crossover? Right?
I only saw the second one, so I was confused. Well,
she's not in the first one, Okay that I was
just confused by the movie anyway, So all of the
characterizations she gets, she's given an internal conflict which a

(01:49:15):
lot of female characters are simply not given in movies.
And she she's just like a more interesting and fun
character than Batman in this movie. I think she and
Penguin are kind of tied for like most like well characterized,
compelling characters for sure. Yes, So with all of that

(01:49:37):
in mind, I'm going to give the movie a three
point five nipple rating. I'll give one to Michelle Pfeiffer,
I'll give one to Miss Kitty, I'll give one to
feminist icon the duck Boat, and I'll give my half
nipple to the line Life's a bitch now, so am I? Yeah,

(01:50:00):
I'll go. I'll go three and a half as well.
This movie fucking rules. It's the outside of a bedel
cast lens. If I was just watching this movie, I'd
be like, Yeah, greatest thing I've ever seen. Cool, great,
But yeah, I mean I think that like we've we've
kind of singled out this stuff where it's you know,
maybe a little dated in some areas, and there are

(01:50:20):
certainly tropes that we've discussed in the past that are
present here, um, and you know deserve acknowledgement and calling out.
But in terms of like a superhero movie in ninety two,
this like movie is doing a hell of a lot
of cool stuff. And I love Michelle Pfeiffer. I love
her cat Woman and disputed top tiercat Woman. No one's

(01:50:40):
doing it like she was doing it. So I'm gonna
give it three and a half nipples on a give
to to Michelle and the remainder to Miss Kitty. Yeah,
I'll get a neat for I like from not this
specific angle. I would just give it a straight five
out of five. I think it's a great I think
it's a perfect movie. Um. I mean we've talked about

(01:51:01):
its flaws, but it is a perfect movie for if
I had to distribute them, one for pre Catwoman Michelle,
five for one for post Catwoman Michelle, five for one
for the duck Boat, and one for a Day Debuto. Perfect.
Perfect of course. Also it's time for cat Woman Facts

(01:51:21):
with Caitlin. Finally, cat Woman, as far as I know,
has two nipples. And that's Catwoman Facts with Caitlin. Nice.
You're welcome, thank you, Good for her, Good for her,
Karen m hmm. First of all, thank you so much
for joining us. Thank you for having me. This was delightful,

(01:51:42):
an absolutely iconic movie to discuss it. We've had such
a nice time. Please come back anytime, any time. Literally
just asks me anytime please, I mean truly, like tomorrow
would be great. What are you doing. Let's let's let's
do bat nipples next time. I have not seen bat nipple,
so that would be fascinating for me. It's like it's
a pretty wild ride. It's not this movie. It's not

(01:52:05):
I wouldn't compare it to this movie. But it's got
a lot coming for that's Clooney Batman. Is that right? Yes? Yes,
I think so, okay, because then there's it's Valve Batman
after that, right, yeah, I always messed up the order.
Oh I forgot there's a Valve Batman. Too many Batman's anyways,
Karen uh, where can we find your online? And what

(01:52:27):
would you like to plug? Um? You can find me
on Twitter at Karen Wayhan as long as the platform
is still active, and you can find me on Instagram
at the Karen Hahn and I would love to plug
my book as of recording. It is coming out in
a little less than a week. It is called Bong
June Hoe Distant Cinema. It is coming out from Abraham's
slash Little White Lies. It's just all about Bong June

(01:52:48):
host work. Please buy my book, Thank you please, I
can't wait, truly, congratulations, thank you so much. It's wild
because like some of the preorders have started arriving already,
so which is terrifying to see that it is out
in the world. Like some people haven't it's loose, but
Jesus Luz. Yeah, one of my favorite, right up there

(01:53:14):
with Life's of Beach. And so thank you so much
for coming on truly, yeah cock, so come back anytime.
Thank you so much for having me, and truly it
would be an honor and a joy to come back
on the show. I can't wait. We'll email you tomorrow, amazing.
You can also follow us on Twitter as long as

(01:53:34):
that platform exists, and yeah, or Instagram. At buck cast
you can follow our Patreon a k a. Matreon. Five
bucks a month gets you to bonus episodes. It's usually
just me and Caitlin kind of choosing movies around a theme.
So of course it's December, we're doing our holiday round up,

(01:53:57):
so we're doing Linday Lohan Netlix movie. You know, we're
bringing the hits. We also just did mob March, which
we observed in November. So if we had to put
our thoughts on just because I feel like people have
been harassing us about The Godfather for so long, and
by that I mean people who have never listened to
our show and don't think what we have to say

(01:54:19):
it should be taken seriously. So we put that behind
a paywall. I think we take a pretty good job.
We both liked the movie, so funk you Young Robert DeNiro,
My god, hot, young Albaccino, Oh my god, hot, get
inside me. All right, let's that's all. At Patreon dot
com slash backtel cast for five dollars a month. Uh,

(01:54:42):
and then you've also got our merch. Hey, you're not
sure what to get your loved ones for the holidays,
consider going to Tea Parts get them a copy of
Karen's book and then go then go to tea Public
dot com slash the Bectel cast for some merchand day.
I am actually someone who has received Bechtel Cast merge

(01:55:03):
for a holiday and it was a great gift, so
I would recommend it. Yeah, and we didn't even plan that.
We didn't even plan that. It's the gift that keeps
on giving. Anyway. Life's a bitch, and so are we.
By