Buffaloed with Shelli Nicole

Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Shelli Nicole eat Buffalo wings, avoid debt collectors, and chat about Buffaloed.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the beck Del cast. Hey, Jamie,
Hey Kitlin, ask me how much student debt I'm in?

(00:23):
How much student debt are you in? And how can
I liberate you from it? Well, I think I'm somewhere.
I honestly haven't checked in years because I obviously have
no intention of paying it. But I think I'm somewhere
around eighty or ninety thousand dollars in student loan debt

(00:44):
for the master's degree I got from Boston University in screenwriting,
which I would never mention. I can't believe this is
coming up so early in the episode. This is never
It's like borderline aggressive. I love it. Yeah, well, God
bless thank you, thank you. Um. Well, look today I've
been sent here, I'm pivoted hard and now I'm a

(01:05):
debt collector and you just admit it to something pretty
serious On Mike Yes and Me. Officer Jermaine Fowler though,
the world's most ethically confusing person. I am going to

(01:25):
have sex with you and then send you to jail. Actually,
I was like, that does sound kind of sex hot,
that is a kink of mind. So I wasn't because
there's been so much talk around I mean student that's
specifically recently because of the like ongoing failure to actually
relieve student debt, the way that people have been saying

(01:45):
that it was going to. I want to shout out
former guests in the show. Julia Claire, one of the
people closest to my heart. She had She had a
viral tweet recently, m yeah, where she said, watching banks
get bailed out for the second time in my adult
life while also paring to watch the Supreme Court tell
us that canceling a paltry ten k and student loan
debt per borrower is government overreach. And then there's a

(02:08):
picture of Scarlett Johanson and marriage story crying. It's a
banger of a tweet, and I just wanted to shout
I was thinking about that tweet this whole damn movie.
Love it well well, Shelley. Oh wait, we should say
what the show is. We should say what the show is.
This is Hello, it's us, this is the Bechtel cast.

(02:30):
My name is Caitlin Dronte, and I have a voice
that sounds like this today. My name's Jamie Loftus, and
I have a voice that sounds like this today. Not
to brag. And this is the Bechtel Cast, our podcast
where we take a look at your favorite movies with
an intersectional feminist lens. Today, we have a movie that

(02:53):
came out in twenty nineteen called Buffaload. And you're never
gonna believe where this movie takes place. It is directed
by Tanya Wexler, written by Brian Socca. And this movie
is brought to us by a returning guest. That's so true.
We don't need to say what the Bechtel test is.
Not to say breeze right path. It's women's, honestly and women's.

(03:16):
It's Women's History month, and I feel like we don't
have to this month. We don't figure it out to
look it up table flip. My voice sounds like this
because I've just been screaming at men all months. Anyway.
I haven't been using my voice. I've just been stealing.

(03:36):
Perfect next year, just steal and burn things. Yes, save
your voice, babe. Yes, we should be silent more than ever.
No more than ever just burned down their house like
banshees a ved sheering style. Okay, okay, that's my favorite
joke that I've ever come up with. That is really funny.

(04:01):
I are not to be pro men, but that movie rips.
I loved that damn movie. I was laughing. I was crying.
Jenny the Donkey, Are you kidding? Feminist icon Jenny the Donkey.
Everyone in that movie rocks. Colin Farrell being like mister
Derp is so cute. He's like, would why not you

(04:22):
be my friend? I loved it. That's great. Okay, we
were about to introduce our guest. Yeah, it's always going
to be chaos when this guest is here. I feel
like she's a culture writer and critic. You've seen her
work on Architectural Digest, Vogue, Autostraddle, and you know her

(04:45):
from our episode on Empire Records. It's Shelley Nicole aka
the Return of Shreky Shrecky Too. I was like, are
we not gonna say Shreky because I will close this
zoom so fast. Also, I'm very happy that it's chaotic
when I'm on all the time. It makes me so happy.

(05:06):
I love it. It's so fun. We're so excited to
have you back. Truly, it's so hard not to talk
throughout that part, especially when it's like not to be
on the side of men. But I have this, well,
the floor is yours. If you have anything you want
to say in response to what we've said, like three

(05:28):
minutes ago, No, just the path that I don't want
to be on the side of men, and I just
thought that that was funny and that, I mean, we'll
probably get into it because I was going to talk
about my student loan that too, but yeah, mine's like
not that much. But yeah, I'm excited. I want to
talk about money and buffalo and ill fitting suits and

(05:51):
bad hair color. I'm so excited. There's so much. This
movie is truly a buffet of things to talk about.
It's a lot, and it isn't a lot. It was
a little stressful to watch, thinking of like various debts
that I have, just like there is a low, humming
anxiety to watching this movie where I paid off my

(06:14):
student debt. But they're sarious. Well, I went to school
on a scholarship and only went to school once, but
it was I'm very, very lucky that I paid off
my student debt. I took forever. It took over. I
think it took ten eleven year or something like that.
But but I have a ton of hospital bills I

(06:37):
have not paid off, and I hear about them all
the time. Well, yeah, I'm not going to do it,
and we but like, I'm not going to do it.
But I get you know, every there was a hospital
bill I have from New York like five years ago
where I didn't I went to the er and they
were like, you're having a panic attack. Go home, And

(06:57):
there's still like, but that will be five thousand dollars, Like, no,
it won't be. It will not be, or it will be,
but I'm not giving it to you. I'm not the
best of luck to you and getting that absolute horsh Anyways, Um,
it's always fun to talk about various debts. Okay, so
the movie is buffaloed. Yeah, Shelley, what is your history

(07:19):
with this movie? I mean it came out pretty recently. Yeah,
I came out super recently. I um, because what was
it came out in twenty nineteen. Yeah. I didn't discover
it until the first Lockdown because I was just watching everything.
I was watching everything. If you hear someone in the background.
My partner is watching a basketball game right now. But

(07:43):
I discovered it like through it first part of Lockdown
because I was literally watching anything and everything I could
get my hands on because I had ran through all
of my rewatches, like my New Girl Rewatches the Office
and all that stuff. And then I fell in love
with Zoe Dutch. Like I started watching stuff with her

(08:05):
and I was like, who is she? She's funny, I
don't know. I think she's a really really, really really
good actress. She's one of my favorite like white woman actresses,
which of which I have like a few, But so
I started watching it because of her, and then I
fell in love with it because she's hustling, Like it's

(08:25):
about money, it's about debt, it's about scamming a little bit,
and it's all from a girl's perspective, which I thought
was really cool. And I mean, I didn't grow up poor.
Grew up like maybe lower middle class and Detroit. Both
of my parents are. My dad like worked death a
factory and my mom worked in an office. But I

(08:47):
learned about debt before I learned about earning, you know,
And I learned about hustling before I learned about nine
to five's, which is in all honesty probably why I'm
so success were like freelancing and why it doesn't like
like if you owe me money for my I'm going
to email you seventy three times at net sixty one.

(09:10):
I'm gonna be like, hello me again, there's money, me again,
the return of Shrek thing I wrote for me to
turn in on time, just Shreky seven because I've emailed
you fifty times. But yeah, I learned about debt before
I learned about earning. My parents didn't teach me like
a lot about money, but they taught me a lot
about debt, and I saw my parents paying stuff off

(09:33):
and all that kind of stuff. So I think I
just connected with this movie through that. Um Because I
might not know a lot about things like investing, and
I was gonna say, like NFTs and all that kind
of stuff, I know a ton about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I know that this is actually a finance podcast. That's
why I want to come on here, um finance bros.

(09:56):
But I um, so, I might not know a lot
about that stuff, but I know about hustling. I'm always
going to make a work. I can always get, you
know what I mean, and this feels very similar to
the story in the film. And I just thought it
was dope, Like is it chaotic and is it kind
of breaking apart at a lot of things. Yeah, But
for the main part, I just thought it was a

(10:17):
really dope movie to talk about like debt collecting from
a girl's perspective, and from the inside it was just dope.
So yeah, I do appreciate that it's a movie about
like hustling, slash doing shady shit to get money from
a woman's perspective, because there are so many movies about

(10:38):
that centering men, yea, all that Wolf of Wall Street
type shit and all that kind of stuff money, but
all of these movies about men scamming and getting money,
but it's never And also I liked that it was
from the point of view of her, like she was
trying to pay off student loans, like she wasn't trying
to like I guess in those other movies and other

(10:59):
films they're always trying to just like make a buck
to stay ahead and get on top. But she was
doing it because she was literally just trying to like
pay off her ship and then wanting to do you
know what I mean. So I just thought it was dope.
I thought it was great. It's one of like the
dopest films that I was seen about, like Debt and
Debt Collecting, that is from a real something I could

(11:20):
connect with, like that kind of perspective. Yeah. Nice. Yeah,
I had not heard of this movie until you brought
it to us, so my relationship with it is very brief.
But yeah, I think it posits some interesting things for
us to discuss. I love that side to side to Babbo.

(11:44):
It's like I have a lot to say, but not
right now, but I guess I'll just have to wait
and find out. I did. Like I mean, there's I've
not spent a ton of time in Buffalo, and I'd
be curious, like for people who are from Buffalo, like
how they felt their city was portrayed, because I always,
I don't know, every time I see something that specific,

(12:05):
I remember how like flamingly angry I get when I
feel Massachusetts has been misrepresented in television or filmed, and
so I am curious, especially in like a comedy. Usually
I feel like there were I don't know, Buffalo heads
sound off because they were talking so much about wings
and I'm like you know, there's a lot of wing talk.
It's like if it's a movie about Boston and we're

(12:27):
only talking about beans. I didn't know that about Buffalo either,
So I would like for someone to be like, is
it really that big of a because I didn't know that.
I didn't know the Buffalo was known for wings. I
did not know that Buffalofalo. I was like, wait, who's

(12:51):
gonna tell you? Oh my god, I don't know why
I didn't connect that to the city, but just the animal,
it's I mean, it's like a super I don't know.
I like, did hotdog research in Buffalo, so I spent
That's why I've spent time there. Oh my god. They

(13:12):
keep referencing Anchor Bar, which is like, technically I think
the birthplace of Buffalo wings. Buffalo wings also invented by
a woman. Happy Women's History Month. Wow, Yes, yes, girl bosses, rejoice.
I'm learning so much about wings today. I hate that
I know so much. I love that you know so

(13:33):
much about that. Wow. Look at that Women's History Month.
Everyone look at that truly. I mean, what can't we do?
While you were discovering that buffalo wings come from Buffalo,
I was googling the writer of the movie, Brian Socca,
who is from yes Lockport, New York. And then based

(13:57):
on a quick little Google Maps search, I discovered that
it appears to be a suburb of Buffalo. So so
the writer is he's a Buffalo head. He's a Buffalo head. Yeah,
but we let Matt Damon write movies about Boston, you know,
so you're just not It's you can't just trust a
single I just want to know what the Buffalo heads

(14:18):
are saying. Sure, I've been. I've been to Anchor Bar,
I've gone to the source. You're just bragging so much,
Jamie on this episode. I'm sorry. Yeah, And I had
Buffalo one day and I tried to get jealous. I
was about to say that I've never been to Buffalo,
but then I am lying because I'm realizing how close

(14:40):
it is to Niagara Falls, where I have been. And
then I was like, all right, Oh, who's bragg great
uncle who lived in Buffalo, and I have been there.
They've got good dogs. Shows you what I know? Well,
shut out Buffalo. I'm a Buffalo fan, fan, fan of
the buff I had not seen this movie before. I

(15:01):
have like a lot of mixed feelings about this movie
because I think you're like, I totally agree with you, Shelley,
where it feels like this is like and I feel
like it's probably like intentionally done where it feels like
a working class female perspective take on the big short format,
because there's a few different moments where she big shorts

(15:24):
and is like, here's how money works, and you're like,
she's big shorting, she's wolfing of Wall streeting. She is
definitely wolfing of Wall streeting. Yeah, she's wolfing out. And
I do like, yeah, like the how like the whole
framework of this movie is about how she becomes this
like huge hustler, kind of like super villainous character but

(15:47):
started by just trying to like get by, and there's
all this emphasis on how the system is set up
to fail her and the only way that she can
survive is by becoming a girl boss super villain. I
don't know. But then there's other stuff about this movie
that I was like, huh, but I'm really excited to
talk about it. I think it's I've never seen a

(16:08):
movie like it. And I also like, don't think that
there's like what you're you're saying, like there's not a
lot of movies that even attempts to have this discussion.
And I'm really glad that this movie is like a
really clear agenda of like wanting to talk about it.
And it felt like cathartic and cool to see stuff
like that addressed, because yeah, I grew up in like
a lower middle class family and I can't relate to

(16:31):
PEG's life directly. And I also didn't eat that many
wings and so it's kind like we were I was
too busy eating beans. But yeah, like the pressure to
like you have to figure out how to get by
in a system that's set up to ruin your life. Yeah,
I'm glad. I'm glad it's discussed. I'm glad that this
movie exists. Also, um, I did want to say the

(16:53):
other thing that brought me to this movie was Judy
Greer in the trailer, I was like, oh, for sure.
Ever since Job Breaker, I've just been like I will
follow you anywhere. And also I am really sad to
talk about this, but Reboot being canceled really made me
pretty upset. I loved that shows. It was really good

(17:14):
and I don't think it got the fair chance. Yeah,
it was really smart, it was really funny, really witty.
But yeah, Judy also bought me to this movie. I
was like, yes, Like, what the fuck we still haven't
covered job Breaker show? And that's classic wilds. I don't
know how we even well, Shreky, come on back anytime,

(17:34):
job Breaker the return of the Turn to talk about
job Breaker of all films, Oh listen, absolutely Clueless Gone wrong,
just for clueless, Clueless gone bad. As I like to say,
let's do it, let's get it on the books. But
in the meantime, well, let's take a quick break and
then let's come back and recap buffaloed and we're back back.

(18:08):
I just keep cracking myself up. You're at how my
voice is cracking so much? Anyway, here's the plot of
Buffalo We open in media rez Okay, master's degree in
screenwriting coming up again. That's that's a five figure term.

(18:29):
Baby yeah, um where peg Doll played by Zoe Dutch.
I think it's Deutsch? Is it Deutsch? Oh? Is it Deutsch?
I never I never know. I want to say Dutch,
but I think it might be Deutsch. But whenever that happens,
I think I'm when I'm thinking it's like supposed to
be fancier. I always hear when they're just like, no,

(18:51):
it's it's just it's Dutch. It's just Dutch. It's just Dutch.
I was like, oh, I would love for her to
yell at me. It's just Dutch. Like it's just like,
you know what, sure, no problem, it is okay fine.
Zoey Dutch or Deutsch is running through Buffalo, New York.
She stops in front of a building. She fires a

(19:12):
gun into the air and screams, I'm gonna kill you,
you fucking jag Off. And we're like, oh my gosh,
what's happening to get a gun? And it's like gold, Yeah,
I love it. It's a lot, it's intense. It's a
good opening. Then we cut two peg as a child,

(19:32):
she's giving a presentation to her brother j J and
her mom played by a Judy Creer. Did either of
you ever do that when you were kids, like give
a presentation of like why I should be able to
sing slutely? Okay? Sam? A thousand percent? A thousand percent.
I kind of wonder. I'm like, I feel like I
must have seen that convention happen on TV at some

(19:56):
point and been like, oh yeah, amazing idea, and like
why I should be able to stay over Samantha's house
this Week by Jamie Mine. I did it for I
Saw a Camp Nowhere, which another classic classic film, Saw
a Camp Nowhere on Repaint, rented it so many times,

(20:17):
and I was like, I'm going to fucking sleep away
camp and I'm going to do a presentation as to why.
And that was what I did, like one of my
many presentations too, to my family. And I went to
camp that summer like it were. It was like for
the summer of eighth like after eighth grade, like right
before going into high school. And honestly, it changed my

(20:39):
life for the best. But yeah, I was like, if
I were a parent right now and a kid gave
me like took the time and I could do it,
I'd be like, yeah, I gotta hand it to you,
Like look at this slip, at this damn power point. Yeah,
I'd been so proud of them, the effort that Mercedes bends.
You want it, Yeah, he got it. He got a kid. Well.

(21:03):
Peg is pitching peg Ink, which is her company something Something.
She wants to invest money to grow a college fund
so that she can go to an Ivy League school,
and she wants a one thousand dollars loan from her mom,

(21:23):
but her mom says, I don't have that kind of money.
I'm already in a ton of debt myself. And then
she gets a call from a debt collector. But Peg
is hyper focused on making as much money as possible
to secure financial freedom for her future. So throughout her

(21:44):
youth she does various griffs. She's selling buffalo wings as
if she's at a lemonade stand, she's selling cigarettes to teenagers.
She starts selling counterfeit buffalo bills, tickets all to pay
for and this Ivy League education that she does get into.

(22:05):
She gets accepted into a prestigious school, but she realizes
that she probably won't be able to pay for it.
The scene where she gets into college, I thought was
so that was like one of my favorite moments in
the movie of like how well it handled the idea
of debt even like generationally, because like between our generation

(22:29):
and our parents generation that wherever, like I know we
all know this and so to our listeners, but like
the you know, the way that college educations were monetized
changed so significantly, and so it's like when I was
trying to go to college, like My parents also, similar
to the Judy Greer character, were like you got in.
That's awesome, you should go, and then like I couldn't

(22:50):
go to the school I wanted to go to because like,
once we looked at it, it was like, oh, just kidding,
false alarm, this is impossible and you can't do it.
And Judie Grew's character's reaction where she's like, I don't know,
I don't know how this ship works, like you got in,
yeah you should go, and like it's like there's almost
so many people in our generation that experienced that and

(23:12):
then got completely fucked like yeah, yeah, yeah, no, the
same thing that happened to me, Like when I accepted
into the college that I originally wanted to go to.
But the thing is both my parents that are very
like different. My dad is very like, I mean, we'll
figure it out, and my mom is very like, um,
yeah we will, but still no, you can't go there.

(23:36):
And so I had the same situation Like I got
accepted to this college. I was super excited, but then
the realization hit was like, oh, we cannot afford that.
And because my school, my high school, like didn't teach
us a lot about like scholarships and stuff. My dad
was like, yeah, you get a scholarship or grant. It
was too late to start doing all that, you know,

(23:57):
So I ended up going to another their school that
still was like fucked me over, like yeah, like huge,
and I was like, shit, I should have just went
to school I wanted to go to if I was
going to be fucked anyway. Yeah. So, and I think
you're right about that generational ship too, because my parents

(24:19):
didn't know half of the stuff that these people, these
loan officers and stuff were talking to them about, you
know what I mean. So of course they just wanted
me to be able to go to school, so we
signed so much shit, and like it is just I
think that was definitely the start of me being like
this is predatory and I need to like just I
would rather hustle my ass off and like pay for

(24:41):
quarter for quarter versus doing the ship that I ended
up doing. Yeah, it's so fresh, and it's like we
were lucky that we even got to do that, which
is ridiculous, like it Yeah, I remember, like the movie
doesn't go into this much detail on like student loans specifically,
and it did make me want a movie about student
loans specifically, because there was like I remember, like this

(25:05):
was like early twenty times, but like the huge there's
a huge confusion in my household about like what is
a federal loan and what is a private loan and
like what does that mean? And I think we were
sort of like confused into believing that a federal loan
was like good and like they're not gonna give you shit,
which is not true at all. They all fucking suck
like private loans or maybe like worse, but federal loans

(25:28):
are not working for you in any way, and like
the way that we I don't know, like, yeah, I
think like part of the reason I was able to
pay down my student debt was because, like you know,
I didn't go to the school I wanted to go to.
I went to the school that offered the most money.
And then on top of that, like because of the
way that like we fucked up the loans that we
chose and so I had to start paying it back

(25:48):
right away and worked full time through college because they
were like, well, you signed one thing one time, so sorry,
like go fuck yourself, like get a job, time to
start cool thing. Yeah, yeah, you're a freshman in college.
But anyway, you want us money already? Yeah, figure it out, bitch.
And it just like it drives me nuts because it's like,

(26:11):
you know, I'm I don't know the way people talk
about it, even people our age sometimes where it's like, yeah,
I'm like proud that I was able to make that
impossible situation work, but like I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
And there's that's that's the other generational thing where people
are like, well, I had to do it, so you
should have to. And it's like, no, I shouldn't want

(26:33):
to do that. I don't want anyone to have to
do I don't want anyone to have to do this,
so I don't want Yeah, it's fucking terrible. It's terrible,
and there's so much to talk about, but I'll wait.
We're only ten minutes into the movie. But anyways, I
thought that scene was really well done. Yeah, I agree.
And then what happens next is she gets arrested for

(26:53):
selling the counterfeit tickets. She goes to court where her
lawyer gets in a fight with the judge while the
prosecuting attorney, Graham played by Jermaine Fowler, just like watches
this unfold, and then Peg is thrown in jail and
starts hustling in jail selling go Gurt. I love it.

(27:16):
She really can't be stopped. She cannot be stopped. And
I'm telling you that. I'll get into it later. But
her hustle mentality is what makes me made me fall
in love because it's me. It's me. I'm like, oh,
I'm in this situation. Cool, So I'm going to figure
this out. This it's just always in me, and I
get it from my mom, like it's insane. I'm excited. Yeah,

(27:39):
because there are so many Wolf of Wall Street parallels
here where she just I do respect a character that's
like I refuse to improve. Okay, cool, I'm going to
meet you where you are. Yeah, understood. One's proceeds. She's

(28:00):
selling Gogert in prison because she's still fifty thousand dollars
in debt from all of her legal fees. Also, debt
collectors are still after her mom, so she's just trying
to alleviate this debt. After around three years in prison,
she gets out PEG's brother, JJ, now played by Noah Reid,

(28:24):
who I think a lot of people would recognize from
Shit's Creek gives her a job at the bar that
he bought, where Peg runs into Graham, that prosecutor or
more like prosecute because he's trying to flirt with her.
I love Jermaine Fowlers so much. He's like saying the greatest.

(28:48):
His character is so confusing to me. He's just all
over the place. It's not his fault, I don't Understand's
the one thing that I did not dig because when
were I'm like trying to scam a system just a
little bit, and you're just like not going to go
to dinner with me? What? Well, it's like his whole day.

(29:10):
I just look like he is so like weirdly inconsistent,
where it seemed like in every scene he discovered she
was a debt collector, and I was like, you know this,
like I just saw you learn this in the last scene,
But up until like the end of the second act,
he's like you do what. I was like, like, you
know this man? She keeps telling you. Yeah, confusing, but

(29:36):
it's Deny. I think he recognizes her as the person
that he like put away, like put in jail three
years earlier. Yeah, but he's like, oh, let me buy
you dinner and she's like, um, you put me in
jail by I don't want to hang out with you.
I don't want to get wings with you, mister Powler.
I don't want to do this with you. And it's

(29:58):
not like I don't believe that, you know, people who
work for the DA's office can get away with all
sorts of shit, like I'm sure that's true. But I
was just like, is you know what? How is this allowed?
They're like, I'm clear, I don't know. It's so confusing,
but you know, I love I love to see your
maid Fowler. I was like, cool. I thought they had
like fun chemistry too, but the relationship was like I

(30:20):
just don't understand. And then at the very end, he
was like, well, guess what peg my grandfather like was it?
Which is like pulling from real life, you know, things
that happened in real life and are very tragic. He says,
like my grandfather was completely fucked over by debt collection
and then was on house and then passed away before
it was resolved. But I was like, but why are
you bringing this up now now? Like you could have

(30:42):
told me that so many times. Yeah, but now when
things are wrapping up like it sounds like her job
is a deal breaker for you. Why do you keep
showing up. He's also actively investigating the company that she works. Yeah,
it's a won't work out. This is not for us,

(31:02):
and he acknowledges that. He's like, this is going to
be a conflict of interest. But they still have sex
so many times. Maybe the realism is that the DA's
office is unethical and incompetent. Sure, but I was confused
because it seems like we were supposed to be rooting
for him, and I was like, but he's doing such
a bad job. He's bad. And then and then at

(31:25):
the end, like I don't know, and she's like, I
think he my boyfriend. I was like, all right, whatever,
you guys are you guys deserve each other. What are
you talking about? Well, then Peg gets a call from
a debt collector the screenwriter of the movie too he
plays sound Oh that's him. Oh gay? Yeah okay. So
after talking to him for a little bit and realizing

(31:46):
that he works in Buffalo, she realizes she can get
a job as a debt collector. Because another thing that
is examined in this movie is that because now she
like had served time, I'm in prison. She's very limited
in the jobs that she can apply for it and get.

(32:07):
But she's like, well, debt collecting is something I can
still do. She is like, this woman is a fucking bull.
Like if you tell her to know and then she's like,
I'm good, She's like, I'll do something fucked up. I
don't care like i'd like. So she gets a job
working for this guy named whiz Ji Courtney of I

(32:29):
Frankenstein Fame. Okay, we were talking about this before the
banging down the zoom door. Um, yeah, Ji Courtney. Let's
talk about Ji Courtney really quick, because here's the thing
about Jike Courtney. He was in I Frankenstein and we
hear at the Battle Castle Love I Frankenstein Ji Courtney

(32:51):
and I Frankenstein. He plays. Look, the man's got range.
First of all, he's Australian. Oh, you wouldn't know it.
In this one. He's secretly asked you do kind of
you can kind of tell and I Frankenstein. But that's
growth and we appreciate that from Dry Courtney because Sam
Worthington is in some of the most highest grossing movies
in the world and he still can't hide the fact

(33:12):
that he's Australian. What was that? What was that like
line from Avatar where he's like he's like playing a
US marine and he's like when you hit wool, You're like,
oh my god. Come on. Nobody thought to be like,
let's try that again. Can we get another take? Anyway? Yeah?

(33:33):
One more Sam, Sam, You're supposed to be from Michigan.
James Cameron was just too focused on something else on
set that day. This is and I we don't like
this word and the way that it's used in this context.
But the best example of that in Avatar is when
Sam Worthington's like at battle it's insane and you're like,

(33:57):
oh my god. Any Jai Courtney doesn't have that problem.
He plays mister Good and I Frankenstein. He plays an
angelic Gargoyle farrior who dies for Gargoyle recasts. Yeah. Yes,
And this one, he's Patriarchy, the guy one of our

(34:18):
favorite trophs, mister Patriarchy, and he's really making a meal
of it. He's just like growling. The dire movie. I
didn't love. The character was baffling to me, but I
loved the Jai Courtney performance. He was really he was
really going for it, mister patriarchy. Yeah, yeah, he was
giving it a one hundred and ten percent and speaking

(34:42):
of numbers, yeah yeah, that was good. That was good.
Thank you amazing. I have a master's degree. I would
never mention it. We learned how debt collecting works once
she gets this job working for Wiz, where bank sell
debt to like debt agents or debt brokers. I don't

(35:06):
know what you'd call them, but they're selling. They're selling
people's debt for pennies on the dollar pennies. Right. Then,
debt collectors try to bargain with the debtors to settle
their debt, knowing that they can kind of negotiate because
their debt is actually worth far less now that they've

(35:28):
like bought it for pennies on the dollar. But they're like, oh, like,
we'll bring your fifty thousand dollars debt down to ten
thousand dollars. Little does the debt or note that settling
their debt for ten thousand dollars is now profitable for
the debt collectors, and all of this is barely regulated
by the government. Right so Peg makes a deal with

(35:54):
Whiz that if she can become the top collector at
this agency. In one month, he will erase her debt
and she does it. She again has a knack for hustling.
She has a knack for debt collecting. Yeah, it's a
it's a hell of a montage, it is. It's just

(36:15):
a lot of like the Zoe Deutsch reactions and writing
on a chalk board or or white board. Right, She's
just so Another reason why I kind of love her,
especially in these montages of this is this montage of
this part. It shows how slovenly she is, Like, she's
just not she doesn't care. Her goal in this movie

(36:38):
is not to like she's not trying to be this
pretty girl. She's in fact, when she tries to be
this girl that's like classic feminine, it goes bad for her.
But I love how whenever she's at the board she's
like eating, she's wearing baggy clothes. She's just her goal
is to make money and get her debt erase, and

(36:59):
I love that. In this montage it's just so dope.
She's like, I'm gonna make money and I'm gonna look
like shit while I do I do, I like I
did you. I had that same note Shelley where it
is like, oh heard cloth, like because we're told. I
feel like that happens in movies a lot that are
about like if you're talking about a person that not

(37:19):
even is like living below the poverty line, but it's
just like not upper middle class or above. Yeah, if
they're either like cartoonishly styled to be like slovenly and
filthy and gross, or they're like just wearing rich people
clothes in a way that makes no sense. And it's
like we see people in this movie wear the same
outfit twice. We see people have stains on their clothes

(37:42):
after eating messy food. Just like shit, that is so basic.
But when you see it happen, you're like, oh, that
never happens. It really never happens, especially the wearing the
clothes twice. I love when it happens in shows. I
love when it happens in movies, and this too. I
mean it's just like I don't know, a film student
trying to like reach a little bit, but I think

(38:03):
it just showed how much she doesn't care, Like she
just is trying. She has a goal. Her goal is
the money. Her goal is not femininity. It's not like
classiness or anything. Like that she's trying to pay her
debt and she's not spending money on other stuff. She's
not trying to do any of that, and it plays

(38:24):
back into how she is as a person, just like
the dudes doing all those fucking movies where they're trying
to like make it and oh god, this montage part
just really made me happy. Also, going back to the
explaining the debt, it was wild because I knew that shit.
And the only reason I knew that was because of
my mom. My mom, because when I messed up in

(38:45):
my twenties a little bit, you know, you get a
credit card the mail, You're like free money, Well, I
don't mind if I do. Hello, I'll take three if
you have it. But then like I have to eventually
tell my parents. It's like, hey, I am in a
little bit debt, and I'm nervous. I was calling crying
because these like debt people were calling me. I was

(39:05):
like twenty four and they were calling me and they
were telling me all this stuff, which was basically these
guys Saal and his crew essentially just calling me. And
then my mom would laugh at me. She would be like,
they offered you what, And I would be like, yeah,
and I paid it. She said, don't you ever to
call right now and cancel that payment plan, because no,

(39:26):
and just be like this is what I'm going to
give you, and I want to let her I want
And it works. It blew my mind. It worked, and
I just I just thought that that scene was dope. Yeah,
when she big short, it was great. It was great
that big short scene there. I knew some not all
of that, like some of the history of like how

(39:47):
debt can be sold and sold and sold I knew
much less about and it's good, Like this is like
a I don't know, I really appreciate what they're trying
to do because it's like, I don't know, like it's
fun to see this it in such a like goofy
format and in a way that isn't like tragedy porn
or bashing you over in the head like it's I

(40:07):
don't feels like a spoonful of sugar kind of like
approach to talking about this in a way that I
much prefer to, like watching people drowning. You're like, I
could just do that. I can look in the mirror
if my life like I don't need That's why I
love romps. It's true. I mean this is a romp. Yeah. Okay,

(40:27):
So she's discovering that she has a real knack for
debt collecting, but she also discovers some unsavory things they do,
such as exploiting elderly people like this woman, missus Cooney,
by collecting on debt that has already been settled multiple times.
So they're just like bleeding her drive for every penny

(40:49):
she's got because they're because she like didn't remember that
she had paid that debt. So they're exploiting situations like
that often, and Peg is fully dissipating. Yes at first. Yeah.
Then Peg runs into Graham the prosecutor again, who tells
her he's investigating Whiz and his team of collectors and

(41:12):
that Graham can't take her on a date if she's
working with these guys and being complicit in their horrible tactics.
And then this is sort of like a turning point
where she realizes how awful they are, so Peg decides
to strike out on her own and start her own
debt collecting business. I do think it's worth mentioning that

(41:33):
she like part of what I did like about PEG's character,
even though I was not rooting for her. The entire
movie honestly was that, Like, she is a very morally
ambiguous character for lots of sections, because it's not like
she realizes that like Whiz is unethical and then quits

(41:55):
the job. She knows he's unethical, and she's wholeheartedly participating.
It's when she does and get the cut up when
it affects her bottom line. That's when it's not when
it's fucking with other people, Like she knows it's fucking
with other people and doesn't care until she I think that,
Like she collected one hundred twenty five thousand dollars and
he would only give her two thousand, so she was like, well,

(42:17):
I'm out of here and I'll like go find a
better deal somewhere else. So she is like at the
end of the day, she's like about her bottom line exactly,
which I also really dig too though, because I think
if I would not have loved this movie so much
if at that point, like when realized she was like
scamming this old lady, if she had had this moral
high ground and was like, oh, I'm not going to

(42:39):
do this anymore. I'm not going to participate in this
because that's not what happens to dudes in movies, Like
they very much so know when they're doing something wrong
and they do the same thing that she does. Peg
is like, I know that y'all are doing something wrong,
but now it affects me, so now I'm gonna go
do it because I want my money, Like this is

(42:59):
a out me. And I think if they had made
her into this like very holier than the character, it
wouldn't have been very realistic. First of all, because it
doesn't take a lot. She's smart. She knows that it
doesn't take a lot for her to set up this business.
So I really I'm really glad that they just made
her go out on her own versus trying to be
a good person and sticking it out or something like. No, right,

(43:22):
she built it right because in the movie just would
have been over, it would have been also done. Yeah,
it warn my lesson, And like you said, like audiences
tend to permit a morally ambiguous character who is a
man far more than there's an expectation that women have
to be so well behaved and we can't do the

(43:44):
illegal thing. Yeah right, And it's like no, Peg was like, actually,
I can do illegal things, and I'm going to do
it really really well, and then I'm gonna get a
goold gun. So though at first, when she does strike
out on her own, she insists that her business is
going to be legitimate with no shady stuff like clean.

(44:07):
She's gonna, you know, everything's gonna be above board. So
she starts buying the debts from Whizzes supplier who's also
Whizzes brother. Also she has are There is a like
random like mister sweetey Pie brother that comes out to
the story at random points, so Judy Greer can be like,

(44:29):
I love you and don't be a bad influence on
your brother, which I also thought was cool. I mean,
this movie is doing a lot of like table attorney stuff,
but in a way that I kind of I guess
approved of or whatever. But I like the fact that
her whole life she's been a bad influence on her. Like,
it made me so happy that she was the one

(44:51):
who was like, and he's older, I think too. Yeah,
I love the fact that that she was like, you're
gonna do what I say. This is bad, but we're
gonna do it together. And I loved it. I loved it. Yeah,
I'm excited to talk about the Judy Greer character too,
because I think there's like a lot of interesting stuff
going on with her and PEG's relationship, where like both

(45:13):
of them are super in the wrong in different moments,
but it's like, ooh, interesting relationship. I'm excited to talk
about it for sure. Okay. So Peg is setting up
her business. She hires mostly like random people who she
like sees potential in as collectors, along with some women
she knew from prison, such as Starla and Backer. PEG's

(45:37):
business starts booming. Everyone is good at their job. Also,
Peg and Graham are like kind of seeing each other
slash sleeping together now, but you're like, yeah, I guess okay,
but he keeps saying like I don't want to date
you if if you're still a debt collector because of

(45:58):
this investigation was doing. I just want to do two
quick shout outs for like the character actors that compose
PEG's staff, because we've got we've got some fun familiar
faces in this bunch. Okay, We've got playing the part
of Francis. We have Lucia Stross, who we just talked

(46:19):
about on fifty First Dates. Better part for them. So
I was thrilled to see them. Her name is Francis,
not Starla. I guess that that's yeah, I'd like for whatever.
Starla was her name she was using as a sexophone operator. Yeah. Yeah,
she's credited as Frank got it. We have for all

(46:41):
my Degrassi heads. We have Raymond Ablack, who was on
Degrassi when I was in high school soft Bundari. I
had a huge crush on him as I was watching
this movie. Oh my gosh, oh, I mean he's been
in a ton like, he's super legit. He's done a
ton of other stuff. I think he was on Yes,
he was on Orphan Black. But because if you're I mean,

(47:04):
if you're a Canadian listener, you will know that it's
the Canadian like it's the Canadian military. You have to
serve for two years in Degrassi before and you can
move on to the rest of your life. But he did.
He's he's one of our bravest Canadian soldiers, um serving
on the cast of Degrassi from two thousand and seven
to twenty and ten. And you have Okay, my favorite.

(47:28):
The woman who plays Ronda is in a small but
memorable part in the original Santa clause Um who plays
She plays Judy the waitress from from Dennis from Denny's. Yeah,
she's an icon I mean she's also been in a
ton of shit, but like iconically she is Judy the

(47:49):
waitress from the Santa Claus And I was like, whoa,
I love, isn't that amazing? I also love how excited
we got about the fact that we knew she So.
Ronda is the very regular client of PEG's mom because
PEG's mom runs a salon out of her house, right

(48:13):
and Ronda seems to be her only customer, also eating
her out of house and home and also giving advice
when it's nannied it Like, I love when she was
like I could go for a fish stick, I was like, ooh,
I know this lady. I know this lady. I would
say no as like it was just yes, yeah, he

(48:35):
love it so good but yes, shout out to um
legend of cinema, Judy the Waitress. Just I mean, there's
I love. I've got a passion for character actress and
we've got we've got a real murderer's row in this
movie for sure. I also enjoyed the character Backer played
by Lorie odom odom Yeah, it's a it's a good batch,

(48:58):
yeah for sure. And I love that she went for hustlers,
you know, the hustlers smooth talkers, because there's so many
different ways to hustle and everybody has their own sort
of like niche and we keep talking about we'll see
that it works out. She picked the right people. Game
recognizes game, you know, absolutely, And I like that like Peg,

(49:19):
I mean to some extent, but it's like whatever, Peg
is so morally compromised that she does lie to her
employees with with with regularity, and we'll like try to
like be like look over here anytime they're like, when
are you gonna pay me? And and I know, I know,
Like again, Buffalo had sound off, would you forget that
your boss hadn't didn't pay you if you got good

(49:39):
seats at a Buffalo Bills game? Sound off in the comments.
I think I would just be upset at a Buffalo
Bills game. I would just be set. I would be
upset in the box at a Buffalo Bills like, damn,
I know that I've got some money that I'm old
so because that's how I am when I don't get
paid for my freelance work, right, away literally upset while

(50:00):
I'm at the McDonald so, like, you're like, interesting, it
seems like you could have used this money for anything else.
It's so wild. Or I get really upset this little site.
I get really upset if it's like net sixty one
and then I see an article published, just like on
the site, just in general, just like in general, if

(50:21):
an article publishes, I'm like, hmm, interesting. I feel like
instead of publishing that article, you could have just sent
me my money. Yes wild. I was on a writing
staff last year that like we were not allowed to unionize,
and then they brought us to a Dodgers game and
it's like, but let us unionize. Like what I like,

(50:43):
I don't want a hot dog And that's a lot
coming from me. I don't want a pretty hot dog today.
I want a union. I was gonna say, come on union.
Or also like, um, I don't follow like my editors
on Twitter, but I know that they have one. So
if it's NETS one and they're tweeting about they're like
out somewhere and my money hasn't hit my account, I'm like, huh, interesting.

(51:06):
Instead of going out or tweeting, it feels like you
could have paid me my fucking money. But you know
that's just me at a Buffalo's game, upset. It is
my new life goal to never get on your bad
side effort because at the top of the movie when
Peg says like, don't fuck with my money, that brought

(51:29):
me in because just don't like I'm a very kind person,
but I think because of the industry that like I'm
in and with the way that I grew up with
like that, it's just very much like you could do
everything else. You could publish my article late, you could
do this, you could do but do not mess with

(51:50):
like my money. It's just no, I can't handle it.
It's really interesting that don't funk with my money is
written on your shirt right now. It is. I didn't
I really didn't want to bring it up because I
know this isn't like a visual based podcast. But the
photo that I'm going to send is going to beat
me in this shirt. So thank you for acknowledging that

(52:12):
an incredible shirt. I mean, it was an investment, really
it marketing. I told you earlier. Started my merch is
a part of my merch, your other merch being just
a shirt that says shreky then on the back and
it don't sue me. Yeah available now Actually I mean yeah,

(52:33):
what a good hustle that you're running, thank you. Anyway,
So Whiz is not happy that Peg has become his competition,
and he's like, this is war, and he starts fucking
with her, including dumping a bucket of like probably fake
blood on Peg at a Bill's game, and then trashing

(52:56):
her office and stealing their paper aka these pieces of
paper that have the debtor's information on them, which is
how they were able to collect the debt from people. Yeah,
the whole kid the Carrie moment at the Buffalo Bills
game was like the patriarchy. The guy behavior goes a
little off the rails for me for part of it.

(53:18):
But there's a carry moment at the Buffalo Bill's game.
We can't take that away from this movie. And then
there's also the blow up Dow, which like, yeah, was
just also which led into another moment of her telling
her staff it's okay, everything are fine, things are actually fine,

(53:39):
It's no big deal, and then trying to get another
date with mister Fallon, Like I was just like, what
is going? Like she they just they have they must
be just like terminally horny for each other because there's
so many times where it's just like anyone else, anyone, anybody,
anybody else. But it also seems like one of my favorite,

(53:59):
like very movie things. It seems like German Fowlers maybe
the only lawyer in the entire city of Buffalo, because
he is like working on every case all the time.
He's never like, what are the chances are right chances?
Because he's the prosecutor in her first trial. He's also
there in court towards the end of the movie in

(54:21):
her second trial, and then he's also running this working
in the capacity of an investigative journalist, like he's doing
a little lot. Sometimes he's a cop because yes, I
have right minutes. Then he comes in, he's a lawyer.
He comes in during the raid at the end where
he's like in a bulletproof jacket. I had to course

(54:46):
correct my notes at some point because I spent the
first half hour of the movie thinking that he was
a police detective and not because that's how he's acting. Yeah,
that's how he's acting exactly. Yeah. I love his ey secretary.
She's great. Oh yes, oh my god, iconically finding it
in all day long. I love that for her. She's like,

(55:08):
what's happening? What there's a party? Awesome by I was like, Wow,
that's me when I have to when I work in
an office. So I'm just like, what huh, I'm leaving.
And she's complaining about Graham, who is asleep at his
desk apparently all the time, and also like because he's
drunk on a Tuesday in the middle of the day,
because there's time where she's like, you can't drive home

(55:29):
right now, you're so drunk. I mean, he's doing a
lot of work, so maybe he's got he's gotta wearing
a lot of hats, he's, you know, self medicating. I
guess yeah, he's. Yeah, he's he's got like five different
jobs depending on what the scene requires. Okay, so Wiz
is fucking with Peg a lot. Wiz also has taken

(55:51):
ownership of PEG's brother JJ's bar, because JJ had put
it up for collateral on his mom's refinancing on something
something debt. The answer is always debt with this movie.
So then Peg retaliates by calling the cops on Whiz,

(56:13):
and the cops raid his agency, which gives her the
opportunity to steal all the paper back that he stole
from her. So now she has all this access to
debt or information and she's able to make a bunch
of money. But then her mom is like, Peg, you're
hurting people with your job, and Peg is like, nah,

(56:35):
these people spent money they knew they didn't have. And
this is when Graham is like, well, what about my
grandpa who was in medical debt and then he lost
his house and then he died, And Peg is like,
do I decay? What about my dad? Is what I
would be? Yeah, the like end of movie there, This
is another like thing that I mean a lot of

(56:56):
movies are guilty of. And it kind of makes me
laugh where it's like the end to act to random
information reveal that you're like, like, I mean, with with
Jermaine Fowler's character, it makes sense that that would be
a but I but it doesn't make sense that he
would be so deep into this relationship and suddenly it
matters right exactly. It's solid motivation for him. So I

(57:19):
don't mind that that's a part of his character at all.
But it's like, but why did you wait so long
to tell her that you've been dating this woman for months?
Like what are you like you know, you know what's
going on, Like I know she's not being totally honest,
but you know she's a debt collector, and even an
ethical debt collector is fucked up, like you know that
that's your job. Like uh. And in the same way

(57:42):
where it's like I think, I don't know, I guess
I don't know what narrative function it really served to.
I guess it like helps sort of like heal, like
the information about PEG's father. How do we feel about
that reveal? Because I think I'm on board with it,
but I just like, what what purpose did that serve
other than to like bring her her and her mom
like a little closer together. I guess I think it

(58:04):
was That's what I was saying, Like some of those
stories kind of like I feel like towards that they
wanted to wrap it up. Well. I kind of felt
like they were like, we need to do this, we
need to say this, we need to make this connection
with them. Also because she was not close with her
mom throughout the whole movie, which was another thing that
I kind of actually really liked. So I think that
they were trying to be like there's this connection and

(58:25):
then and dropping off family stuff is a really good
way to like speed up a story. Not a really
good way, it's a way to speed up a story.
And I think, honestly that's what they were trying to do.
But other than that, I can't really think of why. Yeah, right,
they did it so late. I also like very much

(58:47):
saw it coming. It didn't even feel like a reveal
because I'm like the dad. Yeah, I can tell based
on the stories that these people are sharing that this
guy is a piece of shit. Yeah, And it's also
just be because of how much Peg loved him and
how a verse her dad or her mom was to him,
and like when it came to money talk, it wasn't

(59:09):
a surprise that he you know, like shrug, who knows now?
So PEG's mom and Graham are like ganging up on Peg,
being like your job is evil. So then there's like
this big argument among them, and then the cops show
up all of a sudden because whizz Head tipped them

(59:31):
off about PEG's mom running an illegal business or something.
So PEG's mom and JJ are arrested, Which that's evil,
evil evil to do what WI was did, Yes, for sure,
But he's patriarchy. The guy that's the kind of thing
he's gonna do. What do you expect? So PEG's mom

(59:54):
is arrested. Then we cut to the opening scene with
Peg running through Buffalo. She fires the gun that she
got from Francis Um and then she attacks whiz and
they're fighting, and then the cops show up again and
arrest Peg. So she is detained with her mom and
this is where they have this like heart to heart.

(01:00:16):
They talk about their dreams and they talk about finances
and debt and how PEG's dad was actually an asshole.
So then Peg gets out and organizes a meeting with
all of the debt collecting agencies, including WHIZZZ. Don't know
why he's so like amicable all of a sudden, Yeah,

(01:00:38):
suddenly he's like, I did kind of call the cops
on her. So he's like, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry that. Yeah,
that climactic scene. I was like, oh, rewrite city going
on here? Like, um, It's like I don't know, I
just like I don't need to like slam them, but

(01:00:59):
it's like, um, okay, we gotta wrap this up. We
gotta wrap this up. What if everyone was in the
bar and then they said exactly what they did wrong?
And then the movie over and you're like, and then
the movie is finished, then that's exactly what And then
one more Buffalo bills, right, Because what happens is that
Peg pitches all of these debt collecting agencies a scenario
where they unite so that they can be this like

(01:01:21):
huge strong force and make a bunch of money. And
they're like, yeah, I love making money, and here's all
the shady shit I've done to make money. But surprise,
Peg was recording the whole thing. It's a setup, and
she now has them admitting to doing a bunch of
illegal stuff. So the cops and Jermaine Fowler, who is

(01:01:41):
a cop in this scene, come in and arrest all
of these Honestly, I was so confused at that point
that I didn't even realize that that was like it
was weird, like but that he was acting in the
capacity of not his job, like just not even remotely
his job. He's should be there, that makes sense, Yeah,

(01:02:03):
so bizarre, God bless. So Peg then like sneaks off
and goes to Graham's office, where he has all of
the evidence on all of these people to convict them,
because he's again also an investigative journalist question mark, Um,
he's a hustler too, investigator journal Everyone in this movie

(01:02:28):
is hustler. Yep. So Peg torches all of this evidence
because she wants to erase all of those people's debts,
because she has learned a lesson debt collecting is actually evil.
She has not had the opportunity to learn this lesson
earlier in the movie. We get to wrap at us up. Yeah,

(01:02:49):
and she's like, oh, debt collecting is evil, and you know,
most people are in debt because of medical bills and
student loans and other ways that capitalist institutions fuck over
so many Americans. So Peg learns this. But because Peg
destroyed that evidence, that's illegal. So then she gets thrown

(01:03:10):
back in jail for a while. But she's released. She
apologizes to her mom, she celebrates with her friends, and
she shifts gears from to quote the movie selling nothing
to people with less than nothing, which is what she
did as a debt collector. And she moves on to

(01:03:31):
the people who have everything, to the only hustle that's
even more of an unregulated clusterfuck than debt collecting, which
is hedge funds. Okay, and I love that. That was fun. Yeah,
that was fun. It was cathartic. I liked it because
they were like, I think again, trying to be like,

(01:03:52):
she hasn't really learned anything, right, right, She's just gonna
like use her powers for sort of more good now, yeah, yeah,
sort of more good. Yeah, but she's still being very selfish,
like you love that for her. And then there's some
text on screen about household debt in the US being

(01:04:14):
thirteen trillion dollars, which is over half of what our
like national federal debt is. So I can't believe that's
a number. Thirteen trillion, thirteen trillion dollars. It rageous, absurd.
So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and
we will come back to discuss, and we're back. We're

(01:04:44):
I feel like we have actually had a lot of
discussion already. Yeah, I did see. I was thinking that.
Every time I interrupted, I was like, I could have
saved this, finished the episode. I'm like looking at the
clock too, and I was like, Shelley, you're you're a hustler. Cha,

(01:05:05):
thank you? Yeah so much. So what's what's left? I
think like we've had this discussion around PEG, but I
think that like PEG is a really interesting character. I
do like this movie kind of falls apart from me
in the third act, but setting up because like you
were saying at the beginning of the episode, Shelley, and honestly,

(01:05:26):
you've been like selling me on this movie more the
more we talk about it. It's because I'm a I'm scamming,
scamming me. It's sixty one and I'm fucked god artist.
But I do think that, like, yeah, we have so
many male protagonists that are the scammer that we like,

(01:05:46):
you know, don't morally agree with. But you're like, well,
I'm like down to watch this guy go for the ride,
even though it's like he has significantly less to like
push up against. Yeah, and it's cool to see a
woman put in that role and be equally fuck you,
like I am bad because I think that I'm trying
to think of an example of what we've covered on

(01:06:07):
the show. But I feel like sometimes when like a
female lead is doing bad stuff, the movie will go
way out of its way to give like ethical reasoning
for it in a way that you wouldn't for a
flawed male protagonist. They'd be like, well she is mommy,
or like she is not Like there's like a traditionally

(01:06:28):
feminine reason. She has this huge thing that's going on.
This is why she's being bad, This is why she's selfish.
Even kill Bill like that is like her whole She's
only murdering people because she is mommy. Like that kind
of hustlers comes to mind as well, where they're like, yeah,
we're like baking drugs and feeding them to people, but

(01:06:49):
it's because I have a daughter. Yeah, and even for
me like promising young woman and stuff like, yeah, I
love a revenge, Like this is not very revenge, but
I mean she is kind of mad at the system
people PEG anyway, the system. Yeah, but like I just
don't I want I've always wanted films with like, if

(01:07:11):
it's a revenge film with a woman, I wanted it
to just be she's just mad for no reason, Like
why can't she just want to be bad or want
to be selfish or want to make these like money
moves and all this kind of stuff because she just
wants to She's not trying to like pay to keep
her kids in the house or try to get someone

(01:07:32):
out of the hospital. And that's what I kind of
love about PEG. It's like, and she's been this way
since she was a kid, right, Like, she's just wanted
money and it's just something she learned from her dad,
which I also thought was cool. Was something a movie
where a girl inherits a trait or the characteristic or
something from her father versus like her mom, which I

(01:07:56):
think is was super super dope like, but I agree
with you that it and towards the end, and there
are a lot of holes, you know what I'm saying.
But I think because I was so amped about the
plot and the money and just how peg is, I
kind of like looked past them until right now we're
like dissecting. Honestly, most of my issues with the movie

(01:08:19):
are not necessarily like Bechtel cast lens related stuff. It's
more just like this script could have used a second draft,
Like the characters are a little like cartoonish and inconsistent.
The plot could be a bit more streamlined, maybe, but
as far as like examining a complicated and like morally

(01:08:42):
corrupt character who is a woman, which again is kind
of a rare thing for a movie to examine, because
those characters that writers or that like Hollywood makes space
for are almost always men, right, So yeah, I think
there's just like interesting too. That's a little why I

(01:09:02):
guess it's been like what we were just talking about,
where it's like the most of the movie doesn't like
we know why Peg is doing what she's doing, but
it is like a self motivated thing. She's not like
I'm trying to save the family. She's like family clearly
doesn't want to save themselves. I'm going to save myself.
Like it's not like she doesn't love her family, but
she's not like, I guess, you know, using all of

(01:09:22):
her time to be like, come on, mom, it's not
her like major concern. Yeah, it's not even her brother's bar.
She's like, you're being stupid about how you're running this bar.
I'm not gonna help you figure it out. But but
like you're wrong. Yeah, But like I guess that that's
why I felt a little like Studio notesy to me

(01:09:43):
that she's like so thoroughly absolved of everything at the
end and then she like I don't know, the whole
like colluding with the DA's office at the end of
like that whole thing. It's like this is a character
who is self motivated and bad like see that does
like see that through I don't know I guess that
they sort of do, because she ends up just sort

(01:10:05):
of like heel turning to do the exact same sort
of diabolical shit in a way that's less harmful to
vulnerable people. Yeah. Yeah, I just didn't like it too.
Only the major thing that I didn't like I kind
of liked that she had a shitty relationship with her mom,
And I think that like hard to heart moment in
the cell, it kind of made me a little upset

(01:10:26):
because it helped her make a turn or basically make
a little turn or whatever, being like, oh, you're just
like your dad and Dada dad lah. It's like I
wanted her to be like, yeah, I am, and I'm
going to keep being like just like it's just who
I am, Like I'm gonna be. So I kind of
don't like. I didn't like that bit of it, But

(01:10:47):
I don't know. I think it was because the same
thing is like hard to heart, learn something from your mom,
This is learn why you're doing wrong. I kind of
did want Pig to keep doing I wanted her to
like come back out of prison and be like, Okay,
so now I've learned exactly what not to do and
maybe take it somewhere else to another city, you know
what I mean, Like just I mean, but I yeah,

(01:11:09):
I did it. I would have ended like she's she's
like a little she's a little villainous and it's like
but and we know why. But it's like, yeah, yeah,
I don't know. I mean, it's like, I guess, do
I want Girl Boss Jordan Belford? No, But while we're here,
I don't know, Like I guess I feel kind of
like conflicted about it. I do like the wow, we're

(01:11:31):
here part of that, though, it's like, well, if we're
gonna do this, then right, like let's just do because
I don't It's not like I feel like a lot
of the times they do this with like black films too,
They'll take a white film and like make it black.
I'm not trying to tell them to like take this
like male censored situation and make it put a girl there.
But at the same time, if we're already here and

(01:11:51):
if that feels like it was kind of the plan anyway,
you got to see it all the way through, like yeah, yeah,
I don't know. I guess. It's like I'm sort of
all over the place in that regard because it's also like, well,
our hero is actively oppressing people and ruining their lives,
and that's I mean, I guess that you what this

(01:12:13):
movie does really well is contextualized that like a certain
amount of this is just like who Peg is as
a person. She's super fucking motivated. And but then where
the society ship comes in is like she has this
really intense motivated personality in the context of growing up
poor and in the context of being told that she's

(01:12:33):
not going to amount to shit and like can't do anything.
And so it's like a little mix of like nature
and nurture that like brings her to where she is,
And I feel like that's that's much more effective than
like in a void. Oh, she's just like this. And
I also think it like connects to her relationship with
her mom, which I think is really interesting and feels

(01:12:57):
very like boomer like late gen X parent and millennial
gen Z kid, where her mom does still have a
like even though she is a single mom who is
like busting her ass so that her kids can get
what they want. They don't have a great relationship, like
you're saying, Shelley. I liked that they didn't have a

(01:13:19):
great relationship. It like made sense because Peg represents all
these things and these qualities that her mom is not
comfortable with. Her mom still has like a fairly traditional
set of values in terms of gender. That comes up
several times, and then it's like this weird, well, yeah,

(01:13:40):
I want to know what you think about this, because
there's like that weird chafing argument with them that happens
a few times in the movie where her mom is
being pretty sexist towards her, and it is like, well,
why can't you just like settle down and like, you know,
cut the ship and settle down. You've met a nice guy,
which is super reductive and horrible and shitty, and Peg
never you know, entertains it. But then it also is

(01:14:03):
like it almost I don't know. There were moments where
Peg was like, no, I don't want to do that,
and thus I must do crime, and you're like, surely
there's some middle ground here. It's like, or you could
just not pay for the dinner, because that's where I came.
It came for me, is when she was talking about
I'm gonna take you out, and then the mom kept
saying who's paying, who's paying? Why would you pay? That

(01:14:26):
kind of situation. And I think if instead of her
being like oh, she could have just been like, I'm
going to pay for this dinner, not all right, Well,
I'm just gonna go open up my own scamming business
situation and be a girl boss so to show you
that I can pay for dinners with whatever guy I
want to. It just was a very intense going against

(01:14:48):
what mom wants situation. Yeah. Yeah. Also that character trait
of PEG's mom that she's like holding onto these patriarchal
standard of a man should pay for dinner because a
man should be the provider. And then like I feel like,
a couple minutes later, her mom's like, Peg, would it

(01:15:09):
kill you to wear a skirt every now? And then
that happened so late in the movie, and it feels
like it came out of nowhere. I'm like, yeah, what
has her mom been this like old fashioned, like whole
weird like sexist ideals, ladies. I feel like her equivalent
of my grandfather was in debt And you're like, why

(01:15:31):
am I learning this now? Yeah? Why am I learning
this about you now? Because if if let's say that
was established earlier about PEG's mom, that like if she
was sort of like judgmental of Peg for wanting to
be such a go getter and wanting to make so
much money because she's like no, no, no, like girls
and women shouldn't have to you know, you should just

(01:15:54):
go and try and find a man and and like
let him be the provider. Why are you so gung
ho about making your own money? And maybe that was
like fueled PEG's desire even more to be like I
have to prove these sexist ideals wrong. Like yeah, I
don't know. It might have been like kind of corny,

(01:16:15):
but at least it would have been consistent, yeah, because
it also would have helped, Like again, mayked more consistent too.
If why her mom like didn't really know about I
guess the debt situations like in the house, Like it
would have made sense if that was a part of
the character. If her mom was this person and a
lot of women back in her day when she was
being they didn't know how the finances of the house

(01:16:36):
was being ran. You feel me so because they were
very much so like I am just taking care of
house and home, like I make sure dinner is clipped
and the house is clean and all that kind of stuff.
So if they had introduced her as like more of
a gen X version of that woman. It would have
also made more sense throughout the film too, because I
remember at one point she asked her as soon as

(01:16:57):
she got home, the one of the ladies talked about
her roots too, and she was like, yes, we're gonna
get there taken care of and it's just like but
then she was like, get a job, or I haven't
seen you in a few weeks. It's just she was
a little bit choppy. Yeah, that and like her being
like women shouldn't like men are the providers. Meanwhile, PEG's

(01:17:18):
mom owns and operates a business, like a whole as business.
You would think that, like I mean, and again this
is but like if I have like a movie logic
helmet on, you would think that if she felt that way,
she would be remarried, like she would have actively sought
that up for herself. But it doesn't seem like that's
been a priority for her, which is fine. I prefer

(01:17:41):
that like for this story, but it's weird. I feel
like there is maybe room for something a little more nuanced,
because yeah, it didn't seem consistent with the character, and
it's like, there are you know, intergenerational, like varying definitions
of like her mom is making, you know, what would
be considered like an honest living like she is, Like

(01:18:03):
I guess it's her businesses and technically legal, but like
she's she's not doing work that is hurting people and
her job is not ethically compromised. And I feel like
there's that's kind of an interesting conversation to have between
a parent and a child and between a mother and
a daughter of like, I don't approve of what you're
doing because it's hurting people, and where is your line

(01:18:24):
of compromise, like morally, Like that's an interesting conversation, but
it felt more like they it became like a more
basic something that's been like hashed out a million times
of like put on a dress and get married, which,
like you're both saying, like, doesn't really have anything to
do with that character. Yeah, yeah, it just shows up
similarly Whiz being so cartoonish in his sexism. And I'm

(01:18:48):
not saying there aren't men like this, but like, for sure,
I feel like it's chicks. Yeah. Literally. Here are some
quotes from the movie Wait, please perform at Gai Courtney style. Please,
he says, go be my bar bitch and get me
some bears. And you're like, oh, Gi, I was hoping

(01:19:11):
that you were going to start off with that one.
I really really really was. And then when Peg like
double crosses him, he's like, this is why I don't
hire bitches, And I think what he means is this
is why I don't hire women, and he just thinks
all women are bitches or that's exactly Oh he is
a thousand percent saying because woman, And then like he

(01:19:34):
dumps blood on her head and like has a little
handwritten note that says something like the only thing that
bitches collect is menstrual blood. It was like cartoon ish,
like you're just like a cartoon character and it is
called out to She didn't even know that she was
going to try to Like I guess the other knew

(01:19:54):
she was gonna try to get a job there. But
he was like he told me, He told me I
was there was gonna be like a guest, but he
didn't say she was a piece, And I was like, oh, yeah,
he also, yeah, he aggressively sexually harasses her in the
workplace multiple times. He like I was like, hey, is
this buffalo's sexual harassment or is this character just using
wildly outdated terms because could you just call me a piece? Like?

(01:20:20):
But here is it? No? Um? There's another scene where
it's when like he's really short changing her as far
as how much commission she's supposed to earn, and he
like puts his arm around her and is like making
her uncomfortable, invading her space, and then she's like, I
mean she pushes back, which I'm happy to see where
she's just like, get your fucking hand off me. But

(01:20:44):
I think this is all just very indicative of while
the movie was directed by a woman, it was written
by a man, and I feel like, yeah, it was like,
what's his name, Brian Sokka, He's like, what does sexism
look like? Oh my god, it's when men call women
pitches one hundred times dumps and throw blood are blood

(01:21:06):
on you at a Buffalo Bill's game, and often uses
blow up. Thus from nineteen ninety two was very ol
Bundy like very like what oh yes, like what that was?
That was why he he was wild for that one.
And it also just seemed like Jai Courtney is like
as a man, was like doing kind of some old

(01:21:27):
man stuff when he was not an old man he was, um, yeah,
I thought, like, yeah, I think that, like honestly, that
as funny as I thought that character was, I feel
like it sort of again, like in the same way,
it's like it felt a little too broad and like
there could have been a more productive conversation of like
I think a lot of like discrimination in general is

(01:21:50):
done at like the micro aggression level and this but
this movie just like is not Ya does not have
the capacity for micro anything. Like everything is like maximal
all the time, so it's just maybe not the movie
for it. But yeah, now everything is very, very very
to the max. And I think, like when I was
watching this movie too, why I like really connected with

(01:22:11):
it or because, like I said, it was during like
the first Lockdown and I think this was like I
watched it in May or something like that. I think
it was because there was so much going on with
money in the world at that situation, Like a lot
of people were like concerned. I mean, it's always stuff
going on in the world with money, but a lot
of people were like super concerned about it. We didn't

(01:22:33):
know what was going on. People were losing jobs, like
all this kind of shit was happening, and I think
That's another reason why I was like, oh, yeah, I'm
gonna watch this movie about debt and scare myself a
little bit more like why not? Of course I am,
but yeah, and I'm just wondering why it's so hidden.
I guess, Like, but I often find films like that

(01:22:56):
where I like become obsessed with this movie that was
probably not really meant to be seen. Yeah, did it
have a theatrical release? Because I watched it on Hulu
and I was wondering, like, oh, it's just like a
Hulu production, and that's the thing. I also originally watched
it on Hulu and this was like three years ago,
so I don't think it was even meant to have

(01:23:17):
a theatrical release. Yeah, I don't remember it getting a
release if it did have one. I mean, this was
something we could probably easily look up. No, I mean
it made like less than thirty thousand dollars at the
box office, which again, and this was like pre pandemic too,
so it's like not even actually really during it. So
I do think it's it's frustrating because I mean I

(01:23:38):
don't know like this director Tanya Wexler, who also I
was like, oh, Massachusetts heads, was one of the first
queer was one of the first gay marriage became legal
in Massachusetts. In two thousand and four, Tanya Wexler and
her wife were one of the first couples to ever
be legally married in the country, which I thought was

(01:24:01):
really cool. It's just a fun fact. But like, she
was already a well respected director. This is her fourth film,
and I think it's like really frustrating that it didn't
get more attention because it's like, is it perfect? No?
Is it talking about stuff that no one ever talks
about in movies in a smart and funny way that
centers a woman who's poor, and like like that these

(01:24:24):
are all things that like, very very regularly happen. And
I wish, yeah, I wish I understood why it didn't
get more attention, because honestly, before you pitched it, Shelley,
I hadn't heard of this movie. And like, and I
think too, like with the cast being so stacked too,
Like it's a pretty good it's a pretty dope cast,
like Trudy Greer first of all, but then you got
all these familiar faces, like two smaller roles, but everyone

(01:24:49):
is just like in it. But yeah, I just thought
it was like a really dope movie because I movies
I talk about money in any capacity is really pretty
much interesting to me. But I don't know a lot
of movies about like debt and student loans and women
that are all kind of repped and poor, like being poor,
a poor woman. It was just like that was really

(01:25:12):
like drew me to it. But and then I just
like started really liking Zoe Dutch as an actress, Like,
but yeah, I saw her in Not Okay, which I
know a lot of people did not like. But also
she's she's the daughter of Leah Thompson, like the Caroline
in the City, like what. It's just like she is

(01:25:34):
like that is like some that nepotism did please me
a little bit. That was one that actually that pleased
me quite a bit, if I'm being honest. I was like, okay, wait,
Leah Thompson of Back to the Future, she plays the
random Back to the Future whoa Okay, And she's in
that duck movie Howard. I think Howard the Duck, isn't

(01:25:58):
she and Howard the Duck? We should cover Howard the Duck?
That one that is a trip Duck December on the
Matreon and due Howard the Duck and the Mighty Ducks. Oh,
it'll be great. Ducks Ducks, Ducks, Ducks December. Absolutely. Wow,
we're doing it. We will not stop until every bad

(01:26:21):
theme has been done. Um. Oh you could also do
duck Butter. Duck Butter? Did you already talk about that movie?
What's that? Oh? My god, I know about all these
movies that I've never heard of. That movie has uh
maybe fuka, Oh, Chicat is in it and it's gay

(01:26:44):
and it's bad to me. But it's called duck Butter. Yeah.
That gay movies be bad. That's my campaign all the time.
Gay movies be bad. But then you have dikes and
duck December. Yeah, there is Wow. Okay, I love it.

(01:27:07):
I love it. I love a theme. Okay, keep sending
pick because we we've been I it's shocking that we haven't.
I mean I think that our advantages they were never good.
They were always bad, and so we never had to
be like we had to think of another good theme.
It's never It's never happened. I love it. Um to

(01:27:27):
go back to the like discussion of like finances and money,
that that's like the crux of this movie or some
some might even call it the thrust of the movie.
I'm bringing it back. Whoa keep saying thrust? I wish
everyone could see that the eyebrows, not Jamie that went
up with that, Like, Okay, I know you can't funk

(01:27:49):
around with Caitlin when they're saying thrust. It's just like, okay,
you win. Yeah, don't try and stop me. I'm not
I'm not stop. So here's what has happened. I wrote
down something in my notes, and I don't remember if
it's because it gets examined thoughtfully in the movie or

(01:28:10):
if it's just a really meaningful, amazing thing that I
had to say. Excited, I'm still excited. So part of
the story is that she never even ends up having
student debt because she never ends up going to the
Ivy League school that she got into, or any school, because,

(01:28:31):
as she points out, that to go to the school
that she got into would have been seventy thousand dollars
in interest alone, So it's like hundreds of thousands of
dollars in tuition and housing and expenses that she would
have incurred. So I'm glad, they say, right. And one

(01:28:51):
of the reasons she's so kind of hell bent on
going to college and specifically an Ivy League school. Is
she as that higher education is the key to financial freedom.
Now I think that, I think that's tongue in cheese,
and I don't think this really gets examined or challenged
in the movie. But while like a degree does open

(01:29:15):
a lot more doors for people, higher education is also
kind of a racket and it ends up suffocating a
lot of people in student debt that they have a
really hard time escaping, and it doesn't necessarily like guarantee
you a magnificent job. So I don't and again, I

(01:29:37):
don't think the movie is actually commenting on that. I
think this is my tirade against all my higher education.
My view is like higher education should baseline be more accessible,
because it feels like between our parents' generation and hours,
it seems like you now need an expensive college degree
to have access to the same level of jobs that

(01:29:58):
our parents had with a high school degree, and so
now there's this huge financial entry point to work at
an entry level job, Like it's hard to get my
I mean, my my brother is like struggling with this
right now. He's trying to get a basic office job,
and it's like he has a college education, but it's
like it's still not enough and that wasn't as much
the case with previous generations. And I don't know, it's

(01:30:21):
like I don't I would never want to discourage anyone
from getting higher education. I think it's more of a
matter of just like I think that like I was,
I'm very glad I went to college. I feel very
lucky that I got to go. If I knew what
I knew now, I would have chosen. I probably would
have gone to a state school. I wouldn't have been

(01:30:42):
as like enchanted by the like high price tag, like
fancy looking like oh, you have to go here. But
even that introduces this sort of thing because you're like
almost buying into an alumni network and you're buying in
like there are things that come I just like I
don't know. I I because I feel like there's there's

(01:31:03):
a discussion about this in a recent like I think
it was one of the trillion bullshit New York Times
opinion articles that have come out recently. I think I
might be thinking of another publication. But they were like,
you know, asking like well, where have all the English
major's gone, and like English majors a culturally catch so

(01:31:24):
much shit of like this is a useless degree, this sucks,
blah blah blah. And I know, like I've probably made
similar comments like I have a useless degree, like and
I don't know, Like, but in retrospect, it's like you'd
need people to be incentivized to want to study literature
and study history, especially in like study history. Well, but

(01:31:45):
you can't be in you know, six figure debt to
study history. There's no way out of right, Like you're fucked.
And then so what do you do just like lose
certain areas of study because it's been made so impossible
to even access it. I just I don't know. I
think the movie kind of like explores it a little
bit by saying by the opposite, right, Like I think

(01:32:08):
that's what Peg thinks. She's like, oh my god, yeah,
like this is what I need in order to be somebody,
in order to get a lot of money in order
to do all this shit. Then ultimately she doesn't go
and she learns that that's actually not what you There's
so many ways for you to be successful. I guess
it just depends on what kind of financially successful you want.
Because she's scamming, So it's a little bit different, right,
But I think but successfully. But I think that like

(01:32:31):
I was very bought or in like sold a dream
when it came to like college. But I think that
like goes back to what it says about like our parents.
My parents were like I was the first person in
my I'm the first person in my family to like
go to college, right, like and to like graduate and
all that kind of stuff. Like my brother went, but
he went for like two semesters and was like, absolutely

(01:32:52):
the fuck not, I don't do this, you know, good
for him? Good for him? Right, And I think that
I wish, like when we're saying looking back, Jimmy, I
think like I wish that I had been told more
like the options, like you said, a state school or

(01:33:12):
going to community college first for some quarters and then
transferring over or knowing that like I didn't have to
do it in four years and wrack up all that debt,
all that kind of stuff. But I do think that
that is a really big thing. And people never I
would just go for fashion, Like I majored in fashion
and minored in journalism, right, But when I look back

(01:33:34):
at it now, like no one's ever asked to see
our degree. No one's ever asked for it. I've never
got I've never had to prove it. And then like
I never needed it for the career that I've made
for myself now, Like I really honestly didn't need to go,
but I was told that that is what I needed

(01:33:56):
in order to be successful, was a college degree. And
then I ended up putting myself in this debt. I
ended up putting my mom and dad in debt. And
that's what I was going to talk about too, with
like debt in general, that's why I know so much
about it because, like I said, I learned about debt
before I learned about earnings because my family was always
paying something off for paying a bill or catching up
on a bill or something like that. So I was

(01:34:18):
always more focused on that. But I personally only have
thirty thousand in student loans, and I only have that
because my mom and dad took on the rest, you
know what I mean. And I think it wasn't a plan.
I think it's just because like they were doing that
same thing of being like this is your key, so
we are going to take this on because this is

(01:34:38):
your key to doing all the big stuff and ultimately
like rescuing or being there for us, you know what
I mean too. So I think that's another thing that's
kind of explored in the movie too, Like Peg does
want to make money for herself, but she actually does
say it when she talks about going to school. She's
like it's for her and it's for her family, like

(01:35:00):
she herself as a she may be, she still knows
that her success equals like theirs, which is kind of
like a lot of pressure. But like, right, it's just
a lot of pressure, so I guess, But yeah, I
wish I had just been told more about loans and stuff,
like it's so and I feel like it's like intentional

(01:35:22):
that it's not so intentional. Yeah, you're seventeen. You are
seventeen years old. And then they're like, hey, you want
to go to college show you've watched those bit of
do you want to take out nine four years? Don't worry,
it's four years. We're gonna give you a really good degree.
You're gonna make so much money, and then we'll like
just get it back from me. If we're a little bit,

(01:35:43):
you're seventeen, you don't know anything, and I think we
know more so if our generation um like has kids
and stuff like that, I think I hope that it's
a little bit better for them, just because we can
now teach them more about these predatory practices and what
to be looking out for and all that kind of stuff.

(01:36:03):
And then the other thing is like pushing for like
more systemic like that's I mean, like literally what's happening
in the Supreme Court right now, and like how it
sucks because it's like as individuals your powers, you have
more power, and like telling your own child like, hey,
I fucking fell for this. We are not going to
fall for this. Yeah, we will not be fooled again.

(01:36:26):
But then on the other end is just like continuing
to push for this to be less of a problem,
which is like theoretically what should be happening with student
debt relief even though it's nowhere close to the amount
of like ten thousand is like a drop in the bucket,
like everybody, Yeah, it wouldn't even make a dent for
most people, right Yeah. And to be clear, I love education.

(01:36:49):
I love learning. You have so much of it. I
have so much of it in learning rocks. I'm not
pro ignorance, correct, What I am against is what higher
education has become as far as it's a scale like
odd business, and like you were saying, Jamie about just
sort of the shift in the in the job market

(01:37:12):
of like our generation now needs an advanced degree for
entry level positions versus what our parents needed. So people
noticed like, oh, there's now like this supply and demand
thing that we can completely exploit. And I mean, tuition
rates increase like dramatically every single year. Sometimes if I

(01:37:34):
really want to feel awful, I will google like annual
tuition rate for Boston University for just a lot of
private schools cost fifty eight thousand dollars a year just
in tuition sixty thousand, sixty four thousand, Like it's obscene.
There's so much complicity, And I like, Glin, I don't

(01:37:56):
disagree with your point that like, not everyone, I mean,
and Shellie you were seeing not everyone, Like if you
have first of all, if you don't know what you
want to do when you're seventeen years old, you are
normal and you don't like yeah that is so it
blows my mind. It blows my mind. It's like they're
you're seventeen and they're like, okay, so what are you
gonna do for the rest of your life? Are you
ready pick It's just like no, I don't know. No,

(01:38:20):
so like you should be allowed the grace to and
then like but then it creates this wild issue where
it's like, well, what are you going to do in
the meantime if you can't get a job without a
college degree, and like it just is a fucking whatever
that fancy word for sank eating its tail is, it's
that But I don't know. Yeah, But then there are
like I do agree with Caitlin where there's like some

(01:38:40):
things where it's like, I don't know, I went to
Emerson and I should be ashamed of that, and I am,
but they horrible school after disgusting what I mean, I
really like whenever I'm grateful I got to go to college,
I would not do that again. But it's partially because
it's like that school now offers like a comedy standard

(01:39:02):
and they will let wait, they will let a kid
go into six figure debt when the answer is go
to an open mic, open mic and humiliate yourself and
it's free like that kind of shit. You're like, that's
just like a predatory and a them problem with sixty
thousand dollars a year and they're like, will you speak
to them? I'm like, no, no, because you all you're
gonna do is get on stage and be like don't

(01:39:24):
do this. But I think that's the thing too, and
they'll just like cut your mic and you're just written
to like no, no, no, that wasn't very funny, was it. Well,
I guess I didn't learn a lot. I think that's
the thing too that a lot of colleges are doing, right,
Like I never kind off topic, we're not really on
topic about the movie, but like that's another thing that

(01:39:46):
colleges are doing. I think they're figuring out that we
or people have figured out that they don't need to
go to college to do certain things. Like you said,
a sixty thousand dollars a year to pay to learn
how to be a stand up comedian. I cannot believe
that that's an actu degree. Like that blows my mind.
I'm sorry, but like you know, you're going to be
learning from exclusively failed stand up comedians. That's not gonna

(01:40:07):
be But I think that's what they're doing. It's just
like they're very aware that people are going other routes
to do the things that they want to do. So
I think a smarter kid, especially of this generation with
parents who our millennials, will be like, Okay, you want
to be a standup comedian. Sure, that's fine, but I
would rather pay for you to go take a two

(01:40:28):
thousand dollars year class at second City versus sixty thousand
dollars a year at a major college for four years
to do the same thing. So I think colleges are
also they're just trying to use their names that they
have at these degrees and these programs to be like,
you still have to go to college to do whatever

(01:40:48):
it is you want to do. You still have to
go to college, because that's insane to me. I did
not know that you could actually get a degree in
stand up comedy from Emerson College. That's I will never
shut up about it. To be clear, I do not
have this degree, and I'm not used to participate. But like,
I don't know, Like I think ultimately, like I think

(01:41:08):
something that that Peg is not affected by, and I
think that her character is supposed to be gen Z.
Also like this movie could take place in any year.
I don't really know. You don't see people using phone
like cell phones anyways, But it seems like she's like
sort of a gen Z coded character, and I did
appreciate that, Like I don't know, like when I couldn't

(01:41:31):
go to the ridiculously overpriced college that I would have
been in debt forever if I had gone on. The
reason I went to Emerson was because they offered me
a big scholarship and so that was really lucky. But like, anyways,
like the I took it so personally. It felt like
a personal failure that I couldn't go where I thought

(01:41:53):
I was supposed to, and like so it felt personal,
and then it I also just was not educated it
on my options whatsoever, and like there was so much
stigma and like shame if you couldn't do the thing
you thought you're supposed to do. And it seems like
Peg does not suffer under that as the movie goes on,
like she's just like, well, I'm not like it. It

(01:42:15):
is the system, it's not me, So what can I do? Yeah? Yeah, um,
I wanted to just really quickly. I don't really have
much to say about this other than I just think
that the romance between Peg and Graham feels pretty wedged in. Yeah,

(01:42:36):
I don't mind that like Graham is there as a
character kind of you know, like representing whatever some kind
of like institutional like also like the failure of like
the legal system in the US. I feel like could
have maybe been better represented in his character. But I'm
just like why it doesn't, Like the story only suffers

(01:42:59):
it was weird, that character was so weird, and the
story suffers from like trying to like put them together,
and I'm just like, none of this makes any sense.
Like you're constantly talking about how this is a conflict
of interest and it is, so why are you together?
I think they thought that if they were going to

(01:43:19):
make her such this kind of character, that they had
to give her a romance, right, but which I do
like hate, but I would have really loved if instead
of making him because I agree it's one of the
things about the film that I'm kind of like, this
is weird. Instead of making him like a romantic interest,
I think it would have been coage just to keep
him as this other lawyer that it just like happens

(01:43:41):
to always be around because he's involved in this debt
collecting like situation, you know what I mean. Yeah, it
didn't have to be romantic it could have been a
little bit more comedic, and but yeah, it was kind
of weird, especially because they kept acknowledging that they not
and would not work out like they consistently did it,

(01:44:05):
So it was really weird to me. But yeah, it
was kind of like thrown in there, and she didn't
need a romance. I don't think Peg needed one in general,
or was seeking one or wanted one. But I think
when it came to the script, they were like, well,
we can't make her a girl boss and single, right
right pick a lane Peg, which is like wow, because

(01:44:26):
that sounds like something PEG's mom would say randomly, like absolutely,
I agree, Like I don't think that the love story
was necessary, but also it was like it was once again,
I was just like a little confusing because it seemed
like at first she was like using him, which she
was for most of the relationship, but then at the
end it's kind of like flipped and they're like, well,
but she does love him. I'm like, I was not

(01:44:46):
really picking up on that. It seemed like she would
go to be like, hey, do you want to have
sex when she needed to steal something from the DA's off,
Like that was almost exclusively what it was, and which
that feels more consistent with her character, but again it's
like a third act finger at the end, she's like,
I think he's my boyfriend, and you're like, I don't
know if you like him, Like what do you have
anything in common? Like, But that would have been great too,

(01:45:08):
to keep her as this selfish person who is just
very much being like I need some files. I'm just
gonna do this, But I don't think they were gonna
They weren't too keen on keep making peg that way
in like every aspect of her life, which yeah, they
wanted to like redeem her just enough by the end
of the movie, yeah, which and I do I do
like the kind of like half redemption of like she

(01:45:29):
doesn't be like I'm gonna go I'm gonna like I'm
a second grade teacher. Like she's like, I think that
like where she ends career wise at the end really worked.
But it was like the little things like that of
like and now she's in a relationship and now she
has a better relationship with her family, and it's like, yeah,
she can still be an asshole, like you know for sure,

(01:45:50):
but I don't know. Um, the one last thing I
wanted to say about this movie is so it's a
comedy from twenty nineteen, and I think you can tell
that it's a far like it's a more modern comedy
compared to comedies of you know, the nineties and early
in mid two thousands, because, as we've discussed so many times,

(01:46:14):
so much of the comedy in comedy movies of those
eras rely on a lot of punching down humor, yeah,
whereas this one generally avoids that. The only thing that
really stuck out for me was a remark that was
kind of judgmental towards sex workers, where a character says

(01:46:38):
something like, oh, would you trust a lawyer that pays
for sex? And she's like no. There's a little bit
of a little bit of body stuff as well. There
are a few offhand comments about weirdly Sal's body, which
is the screenwriter, so I'm guessing that he was okay
with it, given that he wrote the joke, but whatever,
there's like a comment about his body. And then there

(01:46:58):
is also, like I think, a pretty hardshum and overly
simplistic reason about why her father died. They were like, well,
he ate unhealthy and so he died and they're like, well,
that feels a little you know, overly simplified. But but yeah,
I mean I mean in terms of like I mean
even like a movie that would have come out ten
years earlier, in oh nine, I mean, it's uh pretty

(01:47:21):
close to Night and Day. Although you know, there there
are it's still centered around a white family and most
people of color are sort of relegated to smaller roles. Um.
But again, it's it's better than where are we Where
where we were? Which is another thing where it's like
I wish people knew about it and saw it when

(01:47:43):
it came out, because it would be great to have
more rompy, funny broad comedies that have like some kind
of conscience come out, Like it would be cool to
see those movies do better. So there's more of them,
for sure, you know, room for improvement, but also miles
ahead of what we were exposed to in earlier years. Yeah,

(01:48:07):
does this movie pass the Bechtel test? It super does. Yeah. Yeah,
there's there's no way around it, folks. It passes about
it passes handily. Combinations of characters we don't even need
to break down how many, because it's usually like if
there are two women in the script. They I believe,
all are all named, and they all talk to each other.

(01:48:29):
So thrill usually about money, usually about money and crimes
and scams and ethics. And you know, there are conversations
that reference the boyfriend, the brother, and the father, but
they are, I would say, in the minority of conversations.
And now to the only metric that truly matters, the

(01:48:49):
nipples scale, Caitlin, what are you giving Buffalo on the
nipple scale? Um, well, on our scale zero to five nipples,
where we rate the movie based on looking at it
through an intersectional feminist lens, I would give this I
guess like a three and a half because you know,

(01:49:10):
like we discussed, it's it's a movie that allows a
like ethically complicated woman to exist and explore her, like
all the moral ambiguities that she's dealing with in her
work and her life, which most stories don't make any

(01:49:30):
room for, in a way that like I didn't mention
this earlier, but it's like, I feel like this could
be sort of seen as like a girl Boss narrative,
but I feel like it's only truly a girl Boss
narrative if the movie is endorsing the crimes which I
don't think this movie is this like no, so I
feel like it's, um, it's all it. Yeah, I just

(01:49:51):
wish it was like I mean, I wish more people
knew about it and hopefully this a little I mean,
this episode is gonna just freaking what a pub felicity
moment for this movie now that no, I'm kidding, but um,
I should send us an edible arrangement for this. I
swear to god, I think you, Zoe, But I think

(01:50:13):
because there are like issues with just like it's kind
of a sloppy script and the characters are extremely cartoonation inconsistent,
and there's just some like kind of storytelling things. I
feel like it won't like stand the test of time
the way that like people still revisit movies like Wolf
of Wall Street and Short and these like male centered premises.

(01:50:37):
Unfortunately those movies do fucking sad. Yeah, I know, and
this one doesn't quite rule quite so hard just from
like a quality standpoint. So I feel like it'll be
kind of like yeah, yes, yes, so, but um yeah,
I'll give it three and a half. Um, I'll give

(01:50:58):
one two. Francis, her pal that she met in the
pen in the clink Wow, I'll give one to so Yeah,
Oh my gosh, I'm so cool. I'll give one to Backer,
the other woman she befriends from prison. Um, I'll give
one to Judy Greer, and I'll give my half nipple

(01:51:21):
to the rotting infested buffalo. Yeah, that was a metaphor
for something. I was like, Oh, okay, fine, we liked them.
I'll go three and a half as well. Um. I
think that this is a movie that's heart in the
right place. I've never seen a movie like it. I
agree that the execution is a little all over the place,

(01:51:43):
is a little sloppy, but I think I mean, I
really like the vibe this movie has, which is like
talking about something that is serious in a lighthearted, rompy way.
I feel like that is like super super super the
best way to or like a really effective way to
start conversations like this of like not feeling like you're

(01:52:05):
going to a lecture or like you're going to school,
or even like you're in a fucking cry, but it's
like you learn about something that affects most people in
a way that is goofy and fun and accessible. I
think it's cool. I yeah, like we're just talking about
I think that like Peg, you know, I'm not always
rooting for her, but I feel like her predicament is

(01:52:27):
contextualized and that her you know, crimes aren't endorsed, but
we also know why she's doing it. But it also
isn't like an overly like I am mommy thus I
crime kind of thing. I just thought it was cool.
I thought the Triman Fowler character was incomprehensible, but that's
not his fault. He he did his job, but the

(01:52:47):
character was so confusing. That Judy grig character was at
times confusing, like like in terms of who she was
and what she was about. But I liked the relationship
between I think like this movie, it was at its
best for me when it was like looking at money
and um generational stuff and class like that's where it

(01:53:10):
really really succeeded. M and I would love to see
more movies like this and very glad we got to
cover it. So I'm gonna give it three and a
half nipples. Uh and I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna give
one to the rotting buffalo head. I'm gonna give one
to Jermaine Fowler's dirty underwear. I'm gonna give oh, yes,
one to the secretary who didn't care about anything, and

(01:53:32):
then I'll give my last half to Judy the waitress
and oh so iconic Danny's it's an American institution, Shelley,
what do you think? Okay, I'm gonna go with three.
I do want to say I gave it four and
a half on a letterbox, but that's just because I

(01:53:53):
was just like in such a good mood after watching it.
Their first people are gonna come for you. This is
a life change, this is life changing. I was like
four and a half, but I would do three. One
it's just for Judy Greer in general, like Judy Greer
being a part of this movie in general. The second

(01:54:15):
one is because I really like seeing a not so kind,
super moral girl when it comes to movies about money
and debt, in collecting money and all that kind of stuff.
And the third one is for I'm going to say
the wardrobe. I know that, so Stu, but I know

(01:54:37):
it looks in the credible fits are good, So I'm
going to say like three total. But I thought it
was like super great and I really do enjoy that
it was. I mean, we keep saying it, but Women's
History Month, I really do like them. A movie about
a girl who's kind of an asshole when it comes
to money, and she's not. She just wants it. She
wants it to want it. She doesn't want it to

(01:54:59):
like sol of World Hunger or to like rebuild the
community center or anything like that. She just wants it
because she wants money. And I really like that. And
I like what it taught about, like debt and collecting
and money in general. So three yeah. I love that
it had like such a clear like mission too, and

(01:55:20):
like that there its main character could still be a
huge asshole, and I feel like it pulled it off
the mission. Like I learned shit watching this serie. She
was a complete jerk, but I did learn stuff. I
got verified on some information that I already knew that
was very happy about, which made me want to tell

(01:55:40):
people about it even more. And I also think that
Zoe's just a really good actress. I think she's just
like good at what she does. I think she's pretty
talented too, But I dug it, I really like it.
I can't believe I learned so much about Buffalo's and Wings.
What the fuck? It was so fun to watch your

(01:56:00):
people in real time by that, You're like, it literally was.
I haven't had that feel like it's so because I
was not attached to that. It was the greatest. Shelly,
thank you so much for joining us, Thank you for
bringing us this movie. Um, if you're if you're looking
to watch it, it's on It's on Hulu. It's easy,

(01:56:21):
it's accessible Ulu. Yes, and Shelley, where can we follow
your work and follow you online? Plug away? I gotta
hate this part. I'm so hate part. I'm going to
be great at this part. Um. But I'm on Twitter.
Hi Shelley on Twitter, and then I'm on Instagram. Ao Shelley,
A y O s h e O I, and then Hi,

(01:56:43):
Hi s h e I on Twitter. Usually i just
share all my work there on Twitter, and I'm always
like having some discourse that I'm not really invited into.
But or I try to start it and then I
it happens and then I just leave and then you Yeah,
I love to start a conversation on the mute. It's
one of my favorite things to do to start it
and then be like, oh, I don't want to be

(01:57:04):
here anymore. This was just a passing thought about this movie.
I've actually fucked this by everybody, and you're like, actually,
see you the fuck later. I don't want to talk
about this anymore. I've been a huge must. Most recently,
I'm I'm on a Eurovision. I love Eurovision, and so
I'm like trying. I'm mostly talking about Eurovision on Twitter

(01:57:28):
right now because I've personally ranked all thirty seven songs.
Oh you're that kind of on Twitter right now? I am,
and I personally have ranked all thirty seven songs and um,
but yeah, it's great. But that's mainly where I'm at.
I'm never leaving Twitter, I even want it explodes. I

(01:57:49):
will probably still be there in the ruins talking about
some movie that no one's ever seen, like Buffalo. So me,
I was like, I truly think of I'm like, we're
like the Bad going to with the Titanic. You're like,
look we are, We're two brain damaged to not be there,
So it is that it is. We're guys, stay here.
And I also love that you worked in a Titanic

(01:58:11):
reference like oh, right under the wire. Right had to
make it happen. Thank you for having me. I love
the Big Back, and I'll be back to talk about
job Breaker please. Ye. So excited. We're so overdue for
a job breaker episode, so we'll have you then, yay.
And you can follow us on social media Instagram, Twitter,

(01:58:35):
at Bechtelcast. You can go to our Matreon at patreon
dot com slash Bectelcast, where you'll get two bonus episodes
every month. This month, we are wrapping up movies directed
by women, so we covered big and we've got the

(01:58:56):
Virgin suicidide as well, so you've got you've got change
on the Matreon this month. Oh and uh, you can
check out our merch store at tpublic dot com slash
the Bechdel Cast. And with that, uh, don't pay your
debt to do crime and don't pay your debt, never

(01:59:17):
pay your bills. Bye bye