Dazed and Confused with Maris Kreizman

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Maris Kreizman discuss Dazed and Confused (1993)! Alright, alright, alright!

Follow Maris on social media at @mariskreizman | check out her newsletter at www.themarisreview.com | buy her new book I Want to Burn This Place Down wherever books are sold!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism the patriarchy zeph and best
start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Dinner, We're going on tour. That was supposed to be
the intro to the Star Wars theme song. Did you
get that? Oh it sounded like I was going Donna, Okay,
Jamie and Caitlin. Here, we're going on tour and we're
not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour
in the Midwest and soon. Why did I make the

(00:36):
Star Wars noise? Well, it's because we're covering the Star
Wars prequels. If you haven't seen them, we're gonna just
cover all three at once. You know it's gonna be fine.
If you have seen them, you're gonna be so mad
at us. There's been so much talk about the prequels
over the years, often on podcasts we really like, often

(00:58):
by writers we really like, but never from an intersectional
feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour to
quickly realize why that is so true.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
And also some people love these movies. I know, I
don't quite get it, but we'll explore why. At the shows.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
They're so soapy. I kinda like it.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, so you can see us discuss all three prequels
in one show, in fabulous outfits, in wonderful coseplay. You
don't want to miss this, among many other things that
you will see because we pull out all the stops.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
For our live shows.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh we it's embarrassing what we do.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
We do fanfic, we do, I edit little videos that
I insist on screening. We do trivia.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I usually do some piece of performance art that no
one asked for.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
It's a spectacle. Let me tell you.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
It's all happening.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
So we will be doing all of that and more
at the following cities. We will be in Indianapolis for
Let's Fest on Saturday, August thirtieth for a matinee show,
and then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening
that can't be missed.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Also at the Fountain Square Theater called Jamie Laftus and
her Pet Rock Solve the World's Problems, in which that
will happen.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
I can't wait.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Then the next day, the very next day, we are
going to Chicago. You asked, we listened. We will be
at the Den Theater on August thirty. First, that show
is going to start around seven, seven to fifteen pm.
It's an evening show, a sexy little evening show. We're
so excited to go to Chicago and the Den Theater

(02:41):
is so beautiful, so Chicagoans do not miss it.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
And then then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday,
September fourth. I believe that's a seven thirty show and oh,
we're so excited to be in Madison.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis,
Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September seventh.
That is another evening show. It starts at seven o'clock
and that is where we're ending our grand tour of
the Midwest. So if you have been one of the
many people asking us to come to your town for

(03:17):
the last ten years we're doing it, we would love
to see you. The shows are super fun. As we've said,
if you're a Matron, specifically, if you're a member of
our Patroon aka Matreon, you get a free little gift
at the merch table when you come to say hi
after the show. It's a blast. It's going to be
a super good time. We love Siena. You can get

(03:38):
all tickets on our link tree at link Tree slash
Bectel Cast. Exqueeze me, We'll see you there.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Oh was that a jar jar impression?

Speaker 2 (03:49):
I did? Yeah? I went there.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Wow. Enjoy the episode cast?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
All right, all right, all right, yeah, I mean, I
guess that's the line.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
I guess.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
I guess that's the line.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
I'd rather say that than some of the other choice
words from this movie.

Speaker 4 (04:07):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
No, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast, as we say, where
you're disgusting older friends.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
No, where your cool older friends.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
We are mature friends who don't show up at parties.
We don't belong at. My name's Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
My name is Caitlin Dronte. This is our show where
we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel test as a jumping off point. And Jamie tell
me what that is.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, we're gonna actually need the Bechdel test today. There's
certain movies where you're like, yeah, we gotta glaze over it.
I think the Bechel test was actually created for this
exact kind of movie. M So, the Bechdel Test is
a media matter created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel with
her friend Liz Wallace, which is why it's often correctly
called Bechdel Wallace Test. I can't stop thinking about. We

(05:02):
recently had Alson Bechtel on the show and we're like,
where is Liz Wallace And she's like, I don't know.
I met her at a karate class and we lost touch,
and you're like, okay, wow, wow, I love that. Anyways,
they co created this test together originally as a way
of commenting on how there was no queer representation for

(05:27):
primarily women in movies, but it has since become a larger,
more mainstream media metric, which means it's been heteroonormative affied.
Here's the version of the test we use. Our version
of the test requires that two characters with names who
are of a marginalized gender speak to each other about
something that isn't a man. And this movie is really

(05:50):
gonna stretch this test to its very limits. Yes, like
many nineties movies, I feel like most of the arguably
Bechtels fasting things are women being horrible to each other,
which technically counts, but spiritually it doesn't. We'll get into it. Yeah,
it's the Dazed and Confused episode. I don't know how

(06:12):
it took us nine I mean, one could even say avoidance.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
We might have been avoiding it for this whole time.
I feel like pre Pandemic, we scheduled a live show
in Austin, and I think we were considering covering this movie.
I think we ultimately were like, we should do whip
it instead. And then it doesn't matter. The whole show
got canceled because of COVID, But yeah, we were we

(06:37):
were like, hm, days and confused. Maybe this is the time,
and then you know, five years past. So now we're
doing it.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
It's five years. We don't talk about that. We have
an incredible guest here today. Let's get her in here.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Let's do it. She's the author of the book I
want to burn this place down. Great title. It's Mary's Chrisman.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Hello, Hi, what an honor to be here.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Oh my gosh, thanks for coming.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Before we get into the Dazed and Confused of it all,
tell us more about your book.

Speaker 5 (07:09):
Yeah, it's an essay collection about all of the things
I want to burn down basically, and if you take
a look at the world right now, you might have
a few items on.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Your list too, certainly.

Speaker 5 (07:22):
So it's basically about all of the institutions and ideas
that I used to revere that I just no longer
do because they have not worked.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
It is a great book, Thank you, And speaking of things.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
That you might want to burn down, Yeah, dazed and confused,
I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, we don't know how you feel about this movie. Yeah, yeah,
So to start, what is your history with this movie?
What's your relationship with this movie?

Speaker 5 (07:50):
So I'm a little bit older than you, and this
is important because I had just started high school when
this movie came out. Okay, so for the longest time
I was like, well, that's what high school's supposed to be. Like,
you know, if that's not an accurate depiction of high school,
then what's going on? I guess I should say too

(08:13):
that at that time, yes, I had a strong desire
to fit in sure, so I absolutely understood why hazing
is so exciting to some people.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
Let's say that, yeah, I mean, characteristic of so many
movies from this era about teens, is like, yeah, this
is how high school is, and isn't that awesome? Actually?

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yes, right, that's what is like one of the many
tricky elements of this movie where it's like, to some extent,
like there is some scary, realistic stuff that does happen
in high schools and like dynamics that I recognize, but
they're just kind of presented without comment. And that's being
generous because because there's almost like aspirational to be like,

(09:02):
you're gonna if Parker Posey. I mean it's a bad
example because I would let Parker Posey scream at me
in a parking lot and cover me and ketchup. I
mean absolutely, and like that would kind of be like
a kinky day for me.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
But but theore, you know, it's just like and this
is what and isn't that cool? It's like, I don't know,
there's like fun nostalgia vibes because it's clearly based on
Richard Linklater's childhood, to the point where there was a
lawsuit about it, which I'm excited to talk about. Wow,
oh I don't know that part basically he used the
I mean, it was a bunk lawsuit and probably more

(09:38):
embarrassing that they even filed it, but there were three
of his former classmates. Their last names are water Send, Slater,
and Floyd, and they filed a defamation lawsuit against Richard linklater,
and I was like, guys, you just pretend to say
I haven't seen it.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, But then also, Dick Link, don't use real people's names,
like have some creative Yeah, that's weird.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well unless he actually did base them on those guys.
And there's a guy named Woderson who should feel like
a piece of shit.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
I mean, true, Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence. Sure, sure, Jamie.
What's your relationship with this movie?

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Not very much. I saw this movie once in college
and I did this is just like not my kind
of movie. I feel the same way about what's the
George Lucas version of this movie American Graffiti. Yes, where
it's like a director in his thirties making a movie
about like high school was so fucking cool. Man, it's

(10:37):
just like never been my bag at all. Also has
to do with that I was a total fucking dork.
So I'm sure that there's like an internal like I
didn't find it aspirational to like watch party movies. I
think it just reminded me of parties I was not
invited to. So I don't have a lot of history
in this movie. I do have a lot of history
with Richard link Later. Yes, he directed my favorite movie

(11:00):
of all time, School of Rock. But the thing with
Richard Linklater is that he has such like range that
you can also really hate some of his movies. I
wouldn't say I hate this movie. I definitely don't like it.
I didn't know Ben Affleck was in it, and I
guess that's that's a pertinent thought.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
I mean, there are a lot of cameos to talk about.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, because I kept feeling like there's no way, but
then by the third time, you're like, no, that is
that is him, Ben aff Preveneers.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
That's why you didn't recognize him.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
It's hard to recognize him with his original teeth. You
had to like go back to the nineties. But yeah,
mister duncan himself in Texas. Maybe he's doing a better
job at acting because we talked about this in our
Gone Girl episode. But like having to suspend my disbelief
to be like, yeah, Ben Affleck lives in Missouri, Sure

(11:54):
it wouldn't happen. All I don't really care for this movie,
but I am excited to talk about it, and I
also get why people like it.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, I think if I had seen this like at
the right time, it would have hit better for me.
I don't know, Kaitlyn, WIT's your history with this movie.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Pretty similar to yours, Jamie. I saw it during the
Great Caitlin movie binge of two thousand and five when
I was a freshman in college that is, watching just
like a Bazilian movies, and I never returned to it
since until prepping for this episode, because it clearly did
not appeal to me enough to revisit it. I think

(12:36):
it's an interesting concept in theory. I mean, I don't
I like a day in the life of an ensemble
cast of characters. It kind of reminded me of what's
that other teen movie where they go to a party
for the whole time and we covered it recently.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
Can hardly wait?

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yes, exactly what is that movie? Tower Records? Empire Records,
Empire Records with some of the cast, in fact, some
of the same cast. Yes, a similar kind of like
Hang nineties movie. I don't know, I never I can't
gelll the nineties Hang, even though this is the seventies,
it's the nineties.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
I'm gonna be your normy friend.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
No, this is good.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I want I mean, like I wanna. I don't know. Yeah,
I like a lot of movies that aren't. I mean,
people love this movie though. That's the other thing, is like,
this is a good movie.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
I'm told it's like well crafted. It's just that most
of the characters are absolutely despicable and very hard to
root for sure looking at it through a twenty twenty
five lens.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Which is true of a lot of high schoolers to
this day.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:40):
Absolutely, But I even feel like the hazing stuff felt
like in the nineties, okay, question mark.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and now it's just.

Speaker 5 (13:51):
So loaded with Trump and ice and all of these
terrible things that like, I can't it's hard to go
back and be like, oh, yeah, that was cool, right.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
So anyway, I saw it for the first time back
in the day about twenty years ago, and I too
find Dick Link aka Richard Link later a versatile director
in that sometimes I love his movies aka The Before Trilogy,
and sometimes I don't love his movies aka Dazed and Confused.
But we'll talk more in the meantime. Let's take a

(14:28):
quick break and then we'll come back for the recap.
And we're back. Okay, So preface for the recap. There's
like eight thousand characters in this movie. A lot of

(14:50):
stuff happens. I'm gonna kind of like skip over some stuff,
but i feel like I've got the core beats.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
So this movie is basically a day in the life
of a bunch of teams on their last day of
school in Austin, Texas in nineteen seventy six. It is
mostly teens who are about to be seniors and then
a few kids who are about to be freshmen. We

(15:16):
meet a character named Pink. He's the quarterback of the
football team, but he's also hanging out with stoner kids
like Slater played by Rory Cochrane, which is one of
the actors in Empire Records, as well as a kid
named Pickford who is throwing an end of school party

(15:39):
that night. Pink is also friends with a group of
like I guess, kind of bookish teens who play poker together.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Featuring another recent actor on the Pod, Anthony Rap. Anthony
Rap's jawline in the nineties was like hard to wrap
your head around, like it's in a good way, but
you're like, whoa, how is this physically possible?

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Sure? Yeah, we talked about him on our recent episode
on Adventures and Babysitting. He plays a character named Tony.
And then we also have Mike played by Adam Goldberg,
as well as Cynthia played by Marissa Rabisi, who is
Giovanni Ribisi's twin sister.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, missus scientology herself exactly, Ohn, Are they scientologists?

Speaker 6 (16:29):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, yes, they are lifelong good grief well shit anyway,
So we have those trio of characters, we meet some more.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Football players like Don Benny, question Mark name.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
A generic white guy named It's someone in the movie.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
And then we'll eventually meet O'Banion, which is Ben Affleck's character.
And the two things with the football players are that
they're debating on whether or not to sign this pledge
from their coach that they won't drink or do drugs
over the summer. And the other thing is that they're
obsessed with beating the shit out of freshmen. Those are

(17:15):
the two things.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Like above anything else in their lives. Yeah, I knew
older kids that really thrived when bullying others and not
to handage to them, but they usually did have like
a second thing they did, but obeyed. Like it's no
wonder he was held back. He treats it like a job.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
Full time job.

Speaker 5 (17:39):
Yeah, I've never seen a class of almost seniors pay
so much attention to freshmen ever in my entire life.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right, well, actually this is a good point to ask,
like what was what were your respective high school experiences,
because I my high school was really big and so
like this might have happened, but it would have been
like with a specific social group, like no one knew
who each other was. And I am grateful for that
because I think I would have been bullied worse if

(18:10):
I was in a small school and people could keep
track of you. But like there were five thousand kids,
so who oh my god. If someone was giving you
a hard time, you just sort of had to wait.
You'd lose them eventually.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
My high school experience was kind of bizarre. We had
grades seven through twelve all in the same building.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
Oh that's a lot.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Oh whow so we had like twelve year olds going
to school alongside eighteen year olds. That doesn't sound smart.
It was bizarre, And yeah, it was very small. I
would say it was probably only about it was like
usually one hundred or one hundred and twenty students per
graduating class. So what's that like eight hundred seven hundred kids?

(18:53):
And I was a weird mix of like I was
kind of a jock honestly, but not like a toxic
bullying kind. I just like played a lot of sports.
But then I was also like a mathlete, and I
don't know, I like ran in a few different circles.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
That's the key. If you're a t if you're a teenager,
that's the Yeah. Because I did like dorky stuff, all
of it possible. But I also was on the dance team,
and I feel like that was my saving grace. Sure
at the end of the day, where there was one
thing that was quote unquote socially acceptable, right, I just

(19:31):
have one socially acceptable skill.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, Maris, how about you?

Speaker 5 (19:35):
I was a theater kid. Nice, but I also I
felt like a lot of high school for sure passed
me by, probably for the best.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
I think that's probably for the best.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, I was about to say, it's like I enjoyed
high school more than I enjoyed college, which I think
is unusual. Yeah, but I do feel like really thriving
in either of those faces is like dream bigger.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, which is like sort of the ethos at the
end of the movie where yeah, what's his face? Pink
is like if I ever say that these are the
best years of my life, like that fucking sucks. And
then the other kid is like, well, yeah, but I'm
gonna make the best of my time here while I'm
stuck here, and it's like, yeah, but also your idea

(20:25):
of like making the best of it is beating the
shit out of children, so we're not too sure about that. Yeah,
I have some notes, Okay, So yeah, that's the whole
thing with these like senior football players is that they
relentlessly bully and physically abuse children. And there's one kid
in particular who they're after, Mitch, and then he has

(20:49):
a few like freshman boy pals who are also targets,
and the seniors chase these freshmen to one of the boys' houses,
but the kid's mom pulls a shotgun on Ben Afflex character.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
One of my favorite moments of the movie.

Speaker 5 (21:08):
I think, yeah, one of the only moments when there's
an adult who does something, which so that's fine, I know.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Right, And the thing with Obanyon ben afflex character is
that he's like particularly thirsty for the blood of children. Anyway,
make no mistake, the boys aren't the only ones terrorizing
younger people, because meanwhile, the senior girls, such as characters
played by Parker Posey and Mila Djovovich, is there, among

(21:40):
others wilds. They are also bullying, slash hazing freshman girls
by squirting. I would say hot dog condiments, yes, onto them.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
I was thinking about it. I was like, ultimately it's
corn dog coated because of the flower Ah. I see, yes,
they're frying in the sun.

Speaker 5 (22:01):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
I saw the vision for this vicious bullying. Yeah, I
saw the vision. I think they're at least creative about it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (22:10):
But then they get put on leashes towards the end
of the frying yeah, and that seems to have nothing
to do with corn dogs no, and.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Then they just kind of start free wheeling it. So,
like I was reading about just like general production stuff,
especially when it's like earlier in a director's career, I'm like,
I think that they just had to do that, and
that is in fact what happened. They like were in
a hot parking lot, not wearing sunscreen, having ketchup poured
all over them, and you're just like, Dick, Dick, come on,

(22:42):
come on, you can't actually turn your young actors into
hot dogs. It's a bad look.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah. Anyway, so we meet some of these girls and
if you're wondering if we will really get to know
any of them, well the answer is no, aside from
kind of Parker posey, but not really. And then also
this freshman girl, Sabrina, who ends up linking up with

(23:10):
a senior boy, Tony, the Anthony Rapp character, and we
can talk more about that, but basically Sabrina ends up
kind of befriending this senior girl, Jodie, where it's that
idea that if the younger teens can withstand the hazing
from the older kids, then they're cool enough to hang

(23:32):
around the seniors. So then Slater and Pink head to
Pickford's house. He's the one who's throwing the party that
night because his parents are heading out of town. But
then the beer keg delivery guy shows up early and
Pickford's dad realizes what's going on, so his parents decide
to stay home and Pickford has to cancel the party.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
I guess that's the second responsible parent he's scary. Yes, yeah,
but that is I guess responsible parrot number two, right,
maybe the final one.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Right? And now this means that all of the other
teens have to figure out something else to do that night.
Some of them just kind of drive around for a while.
The football players head to the freshman's baseball game to
go after Mitch. They capture him and beat him with
a paddle. Then Pink, who goes easy on Mitch, invites

(24:28):
him to hang There's like a similar dynamic between Jody
and Sabrina where Pink kind of befriends Mitch, and then
he and Wooterson, the Matthew McConaughey character, who is famously
a lot older than the high school kids that he
hangs out with. They take mitche to this like pool

(24:50):
hall place where Mitch meets a sophomore girl, Julie, who
he thinks is cute. Meanwhile, the freshman boy's minus Mitch,
so like just Mitch's friends are leaving a junior high
dance ready to become men, aka, they're ready to objectify

(25:14):
women even harder.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, this is another movie where it's not the worst
offender of this by far. And I'm curious what you
both think about it, because I'm like, I feel like
it's maybe a teeny bit aware of it, but then
later not as much. But how like all of the
boys treat girls horrible at one point or another. I

(25:38):
think that ultimately, unfortunately, Richard Linkliner's allegiance is still with
the nerdy guys even though they do say and do
many of the same things that the jocks are doing.
They're just more aware of it. Yeah, which kind of
makes it worse. Which is the thing that we talk

(25:59):
about all the time with like these like eighties, nineties,
Stock two thousands stock geek characters that like get the girl.
Because and this is a generalization, but it is true,
dorks are the ones that end up directing movies, and
so that's why you see that so often. There's an
element of wish fulfillment. I can say that because I'm

(26:20):
one of them, but that they are kind of behaving similar,
if not identically, to the like antagonist jocks.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
It's almost like the logic is, yeah, the nerds are
similarly toxic and horrible toward girls and women, but they
do it a little differently than the jocks, so it's
actually fine.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
They put a little intellectual twist on misogyny, and we
love that.

Speaker 5 (26:50):
I'm gonna give them one credit, which is that they
do hang out with the Marissa Rabisi character.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Yes, and she is an ee ish character.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, she is one of the women or the you know,
teen girls who gets more characterized than the others.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
I wish that Richard linklater had more of an interest
in that character because I feel like there's a lot
going on with her that I felt like in a
good and bad way, kind of not seen but like,
well we'll get to. Specifically, when the McConaughey character starts
to hit on her, like, it's not dealt with well
in the movie, but I was like, that's like a

(27:30):
dynamic that happened for sure. Is like dorky girl or
like art girl feeling recognized and like attractive to an
older person who is ultimately taking advantage of her. That
happens all the time. If only he had interest in
exploring how complicated and toxic those dynamics are, right.

Speaker 5 (27:50):
Rather than just being like she won right right.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
That is where they leave it, like and she's going
to the Aerosmith concert because he's like he's fifty five
years It's so wild because it's like they have to
keep calling Matthew McConaughey old because he is basically everyone
else's age. I didn't realize that Joey Lauren Adams is
older than him.

Speaker 5 (28:12):
Yeah by a year, and Parker Posey too, and yeah,
so it's like Matthew McConaughey, I think they like they
make him up.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Well, but he is twenty four in this movie. You
shouldn't be hanging out with high schoolers. But they talk
about him like he's like he's like their parents. Yeah,
because they're like, he graduated high school when we were three.
I was like brutal, I know. I was like, was
that hyperbole or not? Hard to say? Probably, But in
any case, we're with the freshman boys for a moment,

(28:41):
and then Obanion and some of the other football players
start chasing them down and they catch and flog a
kid named Hirschfelder who had just been making out at
the junior high dance with.

Speaker 5 (28:54):
A with a girl who clearly stuffs her bra with
two pairs of socks.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, well, good for her. Then we cut to I
think the pool hall again, where a bunch of teens
are it's hard to keep track of who everyone is
and where they are.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, it is a vibes movie. Es. Yeah, you're just like, Hey,
at some point the characters started blurring together, and I'm like,
I have to be okay with this.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Well, so many of them look alike. They all have
a very similar hairstyle, well, bottoms, yeah, same clothes. Yeah,
way too many of them are white people. So yeah,
but this is the part of the movie where Woodterson
aka Matthew McConaughey's character says the infamous line of I
get older, but high school girls stay the same age.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
The line that launched a thousand products at Spencer's Gifts.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
Oh god, yikes. Okay, So then the football boys and
Mitch drive around. They smash some mailboxes and car windows
for fun. Then a man whose mailbox was smashed comes
after them with a gun he's shooting at them. They
speed away, and they head back to the pool hall,

(30:11):
where this guy named Melvin has Mitch by him a
six pack of beer, and Mitch is able to convince
the store clerk that he's eighteen, even though he's visibly fourteen.

Speaker 5 (30:24):
So, yuh, I feel like the seniors look like grown
adults and the freshmen are children. Yeah, and yet somehow
was the legal age eighteen drinking ages back.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Then in the seven Yeah, it was.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
I had to look this up.

Speaker 5 (30:41):
Okay, that makes it a little bit better.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
What is the year that changed?

Speaker 3 (30:45):
Nineteen eighty four? I think?

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Okay, because I think, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that
my dad was cool in high school, which is like
so weird to think about because I would say he's
a very uncool adult. But this is like literally exactly
when my parents were in high school. M like, my
dad used to throw a house party. He was famous
for throwing like house party ragers, and I was.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Like, whoa, I know he was the Pickford of the group.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
I guess none of this trickled down in the bloodline.
The wanting to be at a party really did not
get down to be in my brother. But I do
remember that they used to be like we just got
in under the wire. We could drink when we were
eighteen and rem because my aunt was like younger than

(31:34):
him and she was able to drink. And then she wasn't.
She was like this cusp and she took that personally right.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
So Mitch was able to buy this beer. His friends
approached him outside the liquor store to be like, hey,
let's get back at ben Affleck for kicking our asses,
and they pour a bucket of paint on him on
the Obanian carear and he's humiliated. He freaks out and

(32:03):
storms off, and then at some point Woodson announces that
there's a party later on at the Moon Tower. Then
he bumps into Cynthia and Mike and Tony while they're
driving around, and Wooderson takes a liking to Cynthia and
she's into it, though her friends Mike and TONI are like, ooh,

(32:27):
that guy's a creep. He's way older than you, and
she's like ha ha.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
So what I actually thought that scene was again like
a missed opportunity because it did feel like, again like
a real life dynamic of the guys are like, that's
so fucked up you would, And then ultimately they're going
to go with where the social capital is, so of
course they're always gonna do it right, which is a
very unfortunately teenaged thing.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Right because that scene ends with well are we still
going to go to the party, and they're like yeah,
let's go. Yeah, but is there commentary?

Speaker 2 (32:59):
No? I mean, that's that's the whole problem. Is and
here's this thing you probably recognize. I don't have anything
to say about it, but there it is. It is okay, cool.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah. Then we cut to everyone arriving at the party
at the Moon Tower. Mike gets in a little tiff
with some agro dude named Clint.

Speaker 5 (33:20):
I am sorry to announce that I looked him up
because he's in a lot of Dick's movies and he
he died by suicide last year.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Oh oh, that's horrible.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
Sorry that brought it down.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
No, I mean his character will later beat the shit
out of Mike in a scene that again, like there
could have been more commentary on the Mike character, because
he starts out kind of one way and then he
almost like Arcs so for the course of this one
day where he's like, you know what, I'm gonna lean
into being toxic and shitty, and then he incites this

(33:57):
this fight with this guy. So that that happened. Other
things are happening, such as Tony and Sabrina link up.
This is the like kind of bookish Anthony Rapp character
who is a senior and Sabrina is a freshman. Then
we've got Pink having to decide if he's gonna quit

(34:19):
football or not. And then he also cheats on his
girlfriend Simone with Jody, and we're sort of like, who
are either of those people?

Speaker 2 (34:29):
I know, I wouldn't have known. I wouldn't have known
a thing. I was like, I think they both had
brown hair.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
No one of them is blonde.

Speaker 5 (34:37):
Didn't know Joey Lauren Adams has a higher voice.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
That's how you know.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
Yeah, she has a soft voice. I wrote down because
I had to, literally, like, I hate doing this, but
to differentiate the teen girls in this movie, I was like, yeah,
she's the one with longish blonde hair, and then this
other one is the one with shorter blonde hair, and
then this one is the redheaded one. Because we know
so a little about each one that you sort of

(35:01):
have no choice but to identify them by their hair color. Anyway,
that's happening. Mitch is flirting with Julie, that sophomore girl.
Then the party winds down and a few of the
teens head to the football field to smoke weed. The
cops bust them. I think I'm pretty checked out at

(35:23):
this point, honestly. The next morning, the coach b rates
Pink for hanging out with his stoner friends, and Pink
is like, you know what, screw you man, And I
think that's the climax of the movie.

Speaker 5 (35:40):
A thing that I realized I misremembered about the film
was watching it this time. I thought that Pink had
like a kind of the graduate moment at the end,
like makes a decision and then has a moment of doubt.
But there's nothing on his face at all. Nope, he's

(36:01):
just not reflecting I think at all.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
I feel like you could definitely see it both ways.
I didn't feel strongly about it either way. I could
see that, like I don't know, it feels like we're
pink Lands, is that he probably still wants to play football,
but he doesn't want to like have the terms dictated
to him.

Speaker 6 (36:22):
All right.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
I mean, you could look at it like this is
a story about a kid who is like trying to
defy the sort of authoritarian control of the older generation
and like push society or at least his football team's
dynamic in a more progressive way. But on the other hand,

(36:45):
it's like the big arc of this movie is the
star quarterback of the football team deciding to like say
fuck you to his coach, and it's sort of like
cool story, bro.

Speaker 5 (36:57):
But he decides to do drugs and drink instead, which.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
Is yeah, and cheat and his girlfriend, so you know,
could have been slightly more meaningful, but here we are.
And then the movie basically ends with Pink and his girlfriend,
Simone and Woodson and Slater just driving around and smoking doobies.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Going to the Aerosmith concert.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
Woo the end. So let's take a quick break and
we'll come back to discuss Where shall we start, Maris,
Is there anything that jumps out to you?

Speaker 5 (37:49):
I want to always start with Parker Posey in this
because another thing I misremembered was how much of the
movies she's in. She's like a very secondary character, third
character tertiary, Yeah, tertiary.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
And yet I just she is so memorable.

Speaker 5 (38:07):
When I think of the movie, I think of her first,
and then to realize that, aside from the one scene
with the hazing, she doesn't really get to do anything.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Yeah, which is sort of all of the women in
the movie, as we were already hinting at.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
I found it was almost a ten year old article,
but I thought it was interesting. It was a bitch
media article about sort of how women are portrayed throughout
Richard Linkletter's catalog. Obviously there's a lot of variants because
his movies are so like he also did the Before trilogy,
but men are definitely at the center of his movies,

(38:47):
especially his comedies. And it's especially because it's like, there
are women in this movie, but when you bounce back
and forth constantly like we do from like cars full
of boys and cars full of girls, it's just so
obvious who he's interested in. Because one of the most
bummer things because it was a scene that I was like, ugh,
I wish that there was more the scene you get

(39:10):
where Parker Posy and Joey Adams are in the car
and they're like, what did they call me? Well, he
called you a bitch and he called she called you
a slut or whatever like, and it's just like the
most it feels improvised, And it turns out it's because
it was improvised. Oh, Parker Posy asked if they could
just film something because so much of the scenes with

(39:32):
the girls had been cut out of the movie that
I think, kind of in an act of desperation, she's like, here,
just let's do this, and they like improvised that whole seed,
which is why it's kind of like half baked and
sloppy for her, right, I was like, in retrospect, I'm like,
I guess I am glad that's there because it was
almost replaced with nothing, and it seems like, yeah, the

(39:54):
citation was a book that I don't have, but they
just cite a book that references the production of this
movie where Richard linklater basically admits that he cut out
because they shot a lot for this movie because it
was so loose. The actors had a lot of say
and what their characters said and did, like most of
his movies, and then he just ended up cutting into

(40:16):
the scenes with the women pretty intensely.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
And you can tell.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
You can tell, cause where are they.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Yeah, there are a lot of them, but none of
them necessarily aside from Parker Posey. And that might just
be because we already, like with this hindsight, we know
who Parker Posey is, and we know how dynamic of
an actor she is and how memorable of a presence
she can have on screen. But like again, her character
is given basically nothing. All the other teen girl characters

(40:45):
are given less basically nothing. We might learn some of
their names, other names, we don't know. The Mili Joviovic
character doesn't even say a single word.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Again. Richard linklater said she didn't really gel with the group,
and so he cut all of her scenes. She had
an arc and he just cut it. I was like,
it's Milijovivich, it's your fault if she'd you know, yeah,
write a better character.

Speaker 6 (41:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
And you know, she ended up marrying the guy who
played her boyfriend in real life. Oh, I didn't know
that when she was like still a teenager, you know,
because she was I think sixteen when the movie was shot.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (41:26):
So she obviously vibed well with someone somewhere.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
You know, right, Is it Pickford who she's dating, the
kid who was supposed to throw the party?

Speaker 6 (41:36):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (41:36):
I think that's who she's like with. But it's also hard.
It took me forever to figure that out because when
she's on screen, she's not saying anything or doing she
does paint those like kiss statues. Yeah, but that's sort
of it. And then yeah, the other characters, like there
will be like an interesting moment here or there, but

(41:57):
they're so fleeting, especially compared to how the men are
character that you kind of forget who was that girl
again and what's her thing. There's a part where one
of the girls, which one I don't remember her name,
if she even has a name, but she's talking about
how Gilligan's Island, Oh yeah, is this like pornographic fantasy

(42:20):
for men? Because she's like, yeah, it's you know, these
male characters being stranded on an island with a sexy
lady and then like an approachable girl next door type.
So you got the Madonna horror complex. And that's like
an interesting start to examining media.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Right, we don't need high school girls to be operating
at PhD analysis levels.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
They're talking right, and then but her friends are just
like whatever I thought the captain was sexy, and then
like end of scene, we never see her again. Maybe
I don't even know.

Speaker 5 (42:55):
I think she shows up at the party, but because
I remember pink pan that's.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Oh okay, okay, that's that was my that's the north Star.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Pink pants, short, dark brown bob, I think is how
we know her.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Basically, there were these scenes that felt I mean, I
think the reason that this movie is tricky to cover
on this show specifically is because I don't think that
this movie, Like part of the approach to this movie
is that it isn't trying to comment on anything really,
and like reading about how Richards lank Later was making this,

(43:33):
it seems like that is very tied into what the
movie is supposed to be. But even so, it's like
the men have stories that start an end, Like even
though there the stories are relatively low stakes, like whatever,
that's great, but like how Pink is supposed to sign

(43:54):
the piece of paper and at the end he says,
fuck the piece of paper, I don't want to sign it. Mitch,
he has a whole arc of like this is his
first party, and it's like if there are women who
have arcs, it's generally like it ends with them kissing
Anthony rap Like is there any other girl besides Sabrina

(44:15):
And she's the only technically the only woman or girl
in the movie that has like an arc that starts
an ends.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
I think, so I would argue that maybe Cynthia, she
is the redhead.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Oh yes, oh, I guess I guess she'd But also
it is just tied to like and then I met
a guy, a guy.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Who is this is the one of the like very
obvious things for us to talk about on this show.
As far as his famous line of Oh, that's what
I love about high school girls. I get older, they
stay the same age. And that is something that you know,
a statutory rapist might say, right.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Which is the joke.

Speaker 5 (44:59):
Unfortunately it's the joke, and the girls are interchangeable to
him and to the film like that that is part
of it too, And then I always get caught up
in the what is he saying that?

Speaker 3 (45:12):
Right?

Speaker 4 (45:13):
Right?

Speaker 2 (45:14):
I think part of the reason that that character has
the legacy that it does is because of the approach
that Richard Linklader takes is he's just presenting this guy
and not commenting on this type of guy at all,
which makes it really easy for like Spencer's gift stores
for decades to come to just be like, this guy's awesome.

(45:35):
That must have been what he was saying. I was
like looking into the cast, because they cast mostly locally
for this movie, and I was like, I haven't. I
don't think I've seen the actress who plays Sabrina and
anything else. And it's because she quit acting in the
late nineties and became an anti war activist.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
Oh wow, oh that's cool.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
And she is to this day. Hmm, so good for Kristin,
Hina Jessa nice. But in any case, it's almost hard.
It's like it's hard to think of something to say
about the Matthew McConaughey character that probably hasn't been said already,
but like I tend to agree.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Well, there's like a quick moment as he's gearing up
to spew his rapie rhetoric that one of the characters
I think it's down maybe or someone says to the
Waterson character like, oh, you're gonna end up in jail
sometime soon because of his interest in minors. But that's

(46:42):
such a throwaway line, it's not what anyone remembers. It's
not like challenging his behavior nearly enough. Similar there's a
part where the senior girls are hazing the freshman girls
and making them like propose to senior boys and being
like I'll do anything, spit or swallow whatever, and then

(47:05):
Slater says, oh, it's so degrading, But he's also like
laughing as he's saying this, and again not challenging any
one of his friends. And then later that same character says,
the girls in our class are all prudes, worthless, little bitches, right.

Speaker 5 (47:23):
So you know, there's one thing I want to go
back to with Waterson m hm. And maybe this is
me just try like being generous. But I thought that
when he walks into the pool hall and the song
that's playing is Dylan's Hurricane m and he's walking in

(47:47):
there so seriously that you are meant to be laughing
at him there.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
I could see that, I get to yeah, but also
that is possibly a generous read.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Well, I'm trying to think of other characters that meet
this if like this isn't a good comparison Good Fellas
go with, be here of like characters that the director
doesn't necessarily respect or be like, look at this awesome guy.
But that's the cultural takeaway. I think there's an argument
for that here. But I also feel like Richard Linklater
is saying like, because a good fella is Scarsese is

(48:26):
like these guys are bad, these guys are sucking their lives. Yeah, right,
and Richard Linklater sort of yeah, again, it's tricky because
he's just like, here's this guy, what do you think
of him? Which is an approach.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
But I did keep waffling back and forth on this
where I was like Okay, is this commentary in the
sense that it is presenting very obviously shitty and abusive behavior,
and then we're just sort of meant to like take
this in as the audience and be like, yes, that's

(48:57):
super shitty, or is it simply just presenting it and
being like pretty wild teenagers in the seventies. Huh. But
I ultimately concluded that it's sort of like a history
was written by the victors, where like the ruling class
of a typical American high school is the characters who

(49:20):
are the most focused on in this movie. You know,
the football playing jocks, the pretty popular people who tend
to abuse their high social status. Not all of them.
You know, that's a sweeping generalization, but it's pretty common
and there's reason a lot of movies are about it.
But again, yeah, it just feels to me ultimately like

(49:43):
the movie is presenting this just being like, yeah, kids
got into some bad stuff, and maybe even some of
them deserve to be punished, such as Obanion, Like he
gets his come upance by having the paint dumped on
him and he's humiliated. But also it feels like the
movie treats him almost like, well, yeah, he's the one

(50:03):
bad apple, but the other jock bullies are nice. Actually,
maybe because they befriend the kids who they beat the
shit out of.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
So here's a question.

Speaker 5 (50:16):
Yeah, I feel like when I first saw this movie,
I thought like, is there like a high school fraternity
and sorority system?

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Like is there a Greek system?

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Right?

Speaker 4 (50:26):
Like what are they being hazed for?

Speaker 5 (50:29):
And if they're being hazed, how do they choose which
people get haste? Like with the with the guys, it's
a little easier because you see sports and like you
can imagine that they then grow up to play on
the same teams and right, but like, how is Parker
posey yelling at a random thirteen year.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Old She literally just goes up to Sabrina, who is
not yet participating in the being hazed. She's chosen, Yeah,
basically because she's like, she's attractive. Yeah, if she wants
to be popular, if she wants to have all this
social capital, then she has to be hazed because that
means we'll take her under our wing and haes her,

(51:13):
but then ultimately befriend her. I guess I was.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Also kind of puzzled by that to the point where
I was like, is it a small town thing. Is
it a seventies thing? Is it completely made up? Any
of these answers could be true. I don't, yeah, because
it is like the girls are being hazed for something
way more general. Yes, yeah, this behavior like it's horrible
wherever it is, but it would make more sense in

(51:38):
college to me.

Speaker 4 (51:39):
Yeah, and even just the paddles. The paddles are very Greek.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yes, yeah, I didn't get it. And then there's like
that scene where Anthony Rapp is like, they're selling concessions.
I'm like, they're selling concessions at the hazing ritual. I
guess I was like, if that's a thing, my school
was different. I don't know, Like kiss got beat up,
there was bullying, but there weren't concessions. That's wild.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
Yeah, I'm not sure, but those are some of the
few characters who do challenge the behavior of the kids
with higher social status around them, and it's predominantly Mike,
the Adam Goldberg character, who's like, it's so wild that
our school and the entire community seems to just support

(52:31):
these hazing rituals. He and Tony ask Sabrina why she
would subject herself to this. She kind of has no answer.
We can presume she wants to fit in and make friends,
but there are some of the few characters who are
actually challenging this. But then that culminates in Tony kissing

(52:52):
a girl who's four years younger than her and in
high school, when those four years of development emotionally and
like psychologically make a huge difference. Like that is an
age gap that I am not okay with. But this
happens in like three or four different dynamics throughout the
movie where a much older person gets with a much

(53:14):
younger person.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Yes, I mean that's the like whattersin and YEAHBC sorry KILLERBC.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Right, but that's presented with like no commentary, just like, yeah,
this is how.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
It is, right, I mean it's like and do I
believe that happened in the seventies. Yes, But again, like
that's the I guess that's the risk of just showing
without comment It feels like a tacit or like over
kind of endorsement of like nothing nothing wrong with this.
And again it's like there are interesting dynamics, not with

(53:50):
the age gap relationships. I'm talking more about like with
the Mic character. Again, it's it wouldn't have been unusual
to see that dynamic that we saw of like, this
is so fucked up, but I'm too scared to personally
do anything about it. Right, that is definitely a relatable thing,
But again it's just like it doesn't go anywhere. It

(54:11):
just sort of like, I guess, I just don't really
like this approach to filmmaking.

Speaker 5 (54:17):
Like I also wonder though, like I mean, and this
might be true for so many different nineties films, like
the age I was when I first saw this movie,
I didn't have the vocabulary to express why this made
me feel weird.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
Yeah, you know, anti.

Speaker 5 (54:35):
Bullying wasn't a thing like that, right, or like it
wasn't bullying was just something that happened. And I wonder
if there was just so much less demand for him
to be the self aware back then.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
That's what I kept coming back to.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
I would guess so because he does become, like to
his credit, way more self aware in future movies.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
He makes way many more thoughtful movies after this.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, he.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Can't do it, which almost makes this movie more frustrating.
He's choosing not to.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Right, I guess he learns by the mid to late nineties. Well,
that's something I kept coming back to where this movie
was released in nineteen ninety three, but it's set in
nineteen seventy six, so it has the benefit of over
fifteen years of hindsight to make commentary if it wanted
to on things like, you know, casual sexism, casual racism,

(55:38):
casual homophobia, et cetera. But because it's still the early
nineties when this is being written and made, and those
were such culturally pervasive attitudes still at that time that, yeah,
I think Dick Link just didn't have the where withal.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
No one was asking for it, yeah, right, and I
guess he was like, Okay, great, I guess like yeah,
and even within this like style of filmmaking, there if
he had written characters, like if he had written women
that had and it's like, who knows, like if those
scenes possibly do exist, of is there a scene where

(56:20):
we get more context for Parker Posey's character, Maybe, but
it was all cut, and like, is there a scene
where we get context for Bilee Jova Vicious character? It
sounds like we did, but it was all gone. And
so it's like if this movie was primarily made in
the editing room, that's on him.

Speaker 5 (56:39):
Yeah, I mean I would say also in the nineties,
the idea of a very long music video felt kind
of okay and cool. And if you just show a
lot of fun images and have a lot of good songs,
who cared about the words.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Right, that's a great way to put it.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
This movie does mostly just feel like a like a
best of compilation, like best Songs of the seventies. Yeah, yeah,
and there's teenagers there too.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
It's best stock characters of the seventies, scored to what
had to have been a soundtrack that took up most
of the budget.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
It did, Yeah, Oh it did.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Yep. That's really funny. Sure, I mean, I guess. But
also this is just like I love a movie with
a lot of great needle drops, but when there's too many, yeah,
it was a lot. I'm like insecure, insecure filmmaking. If
you need that many needle drops to be like it's
nineteen seventy six, it's like, I could I could see that.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
I could see that, we get it.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Other there were characters that I like to disappeared, I thought,
I mean again, she's introduced in very what is this way?
They have a teacher who is we are introduced to
her by she's getting hit on by a student, and
I don't think she appropriately pushes back. She kind of

(58:07):
rolls her eyes.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
And is like she gives them like a pat on
the head.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah, but then she does have one of the better
lines of the movie before we never see her again,
where she's pushing back on celebrating the bisentennial because it
was like white slave owners who didn't want to pay
their taxes. Good line, which we saw her again, Yeah,
but we didn't because again, just like the way that

(58:32):
he wrote this is like and people could just disappear
at any time.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Speaking of which, there's again and I need help finding
out what his name was. There's exactly one black character,
Melvin Melvin. Okay, where again, this is an extremely white movie,
and Austin in the seventies it was majority white, but
there was way more diversity than we see in this movie.

(59:00):
It seems like they're atam public high school. It doesn't
seem like Amy. It's like a middle class public high school.
It's unrealistic that it's as white as it is, and
that the one black character we get to meet is
so vague. He's just like another bully, Like we don't
know anything about him except here's another bully.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
He's almost treated the way the teen girls are in
the sense that he'll be around, we might recognize him,
but he won't really say much. He won't be there
super consistently, he won't have his own story arc, nothing
like that.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
No, And again it's like you wonder, like, is there
a version of this movie where he had more screen time? Maybe,
but we'll never know. But it really like that choice
sticks out like a sore thumb here. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
It seems like the storylines that the movie is most
interested in are Pink with his like should I succumb
to tyranny from my football coach? And Mitch, who is
the freshman boy who like shows that he's cool actually
because he was willing to be abused by older kids,

(01:00:10):
and not that I'm blaming him for that, because again
that's this is a familiar dynamic. Younger people and people
with lower like social status in high school will generally
do things to be accepted and to make friends and
things like that. But the story is mostly interested in

(01:00:31):
those two characters and not really anyone else.

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
I mean, I could see the case that Sabrina is
also meant to be like.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
The Mitch of ladies, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
it's again it's like, I like Sabrina in the performance,
like she seems like a sweet kid. Yeah, and I
feel like you could feel her predicament where especially in
the scenes where she's being torn between it. It sucks
that she ends up with the Anthony rap character because

(01:01:02):
again you're presented with an interesting scenario of like, who
does she think it's more important to impress boys or
the girls who are like exerting this hazing control over her.
It's an interesting setup.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
Ginger a Marian slutterbitch right right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
It's like it would be interesting if it went anywhere interesting,
which it doesn't, and so then it just sort of
ends up coming off kind of not as good, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Know, pretty flat. I feel like Cynthia also had potential.
She's the like quote unquote guys gal who only hangs
out with other boys, it seems, and again, that was
a familiar situation many such cases. You know, that would
have been easy to explore a bit further. It would

(01:01:54):
have been easy for her to not end up with
a creep, but again the movie didn't really have any
interest in doing that. But uh, yeah, she was kind
of the one character who I latched onto as far
as like, can we know more about her, can we
get a little bit more of her insight into the world,

(01:02:16):
Because there's a scene where she and Mike and Tony
are driving around and they're sort of realizing, Oh, everything
that we're doing is in service of the future, But like,
why don't we live in the now? And maybe that's
what compels her to say yes to Waterson's advances. Maybe
I don't know, I'm maybe not.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
Giving her enough credit.

Speaker 5 (01:02:38):
He was a cool guy.

Speaker 4 (01:02:40):
That's a cool guy.

Speaker 5 (01:02:41):
Right, what else do you need? If a cool guy
is interested in you, you show interests back, because why
be introspective about it?

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
I mean right, exactly, Like we are conditioned to think
that older, cool dudes are worthy of our attention, and
if they pay attention to us, then, oh my gosh,
that's going to elevate our social capital. That's that like
reinforces the worth of a woman quote unquote. So yeah,

(01:03:13):
the movie again it presents that without commenting on it.
But again, it was nineteen ninety three, So still.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
It's just so weird that like his movie after this
is the first before movie. Yeah, I always guess it wrong.
Before Sunrise, Before Sunrise, Yeah, which I guess it also
should be reminded that he co wrote that movie with
a woman, so it wasn't like he suddenly true he
had a deep understanding of women in not in nineteen

(01:03:44):
ninety three, but then suddenly did in nineteen ninety five.
But still, yeah, I just this movie ends up. It's
just I found it very frustrating because it's not trying
to say very much.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:56):
For me, it's take an edible turn on this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yeah, watch the.

Speaker 4 (01:04:01):
Pretty People Go By.

Speaker 5 (01:04:02):
It's a screensaver, Listen to some songs that are now
classic rock, and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
Have an okay night. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Yeah, if you're a nostalgic for the seventies, this is
the movie for you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Then you're Richard Lakeletter and here's this.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
And here's this.

Speaker 5 (01:04:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
No, not a thought. It's so hard to develop a
cochin thought about this movie because like, nothing really happens
in the Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
Well, originally it was supposed to be a movie that
took place entirely in a car. It was only going
to be a couple shots, but like a full feature still,
I think, And it was just gonna be characters driving
around listening to an entire Zzy Top album, I think

(01:05:01):
is what I read, right, And then link later was like, hmm,
what if I expand this to represent other points of view?
And by that I mean teen boys who are white,
so it could have been whatever the Zezy Top thing was.
But yeah, that's that's pretty much all I had. I

(01:05:22):
feel like we were so efficient and I got the
discussion out in record time with this one.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
I mean, I was like, I feel like, are we
missing something I don't. There's not really a lot of
Most of the behind the scenes stuff is kind of
a bummer, yeah, but mostly anecdotal. The whichever characters. The
characters who were getting paddled, their parents called Richard link
later and they were like, you have to tell Ben
Affleck to paddle soft dar on my son. Wow, Ben

(01:05:53):
Affleck confirmed bully in real life. You have the stories
about the like budget nightmare fuel of like, nope, we
actually made teenage girls flop around in a hot parking
lad in the sun and we forgot to give them sunscreen,
very indie filmmaker horror story. And then you have I think,
to me, the biggest bummer is just hearing from Parker

(01:06:17):
Posey that there was a lot of stuff shot with
their characters. Yeah, it just didn't end up in the movie.

Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
Can we talk about one moment with Parker Posey that, yes,
I think is the most The only instance of women
helping women in this film is Renee Zelweger was in
this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yes, what I didn't catch her, blink and you miss her.

Speaker 5 (01:06:42):
Renee zell Wigger was holding up the funnel wild Parker Posey, chuck.
And that is women helping women.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
And that's that means this movie is a feminist masterpiece.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
It is two time oscar in our humble beginning.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
We all have to start somewhere. I guess you could
make the argument that Jody, who befriends Sabrina, now, does
that friendship really have any bearing on the story. Do
we see that develop in any meaningful way? Do we
really see them talk beyond like the one or two
scenes they have together that are pretty quick. No, but

(01:07:22):
she does say like, hey, little freshman girl, you're cute,
so you should be haze And then also you're my
friend now, so come to the party later. So maybe
that's women helping women.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
And if so, I mean going back to your comment
Caitlin about like this big kind of a history written
by the victor's kind of vibe is there is this
feeling and again, we weren't there for the seventies, so
maybe it's true, but there is this feeling that like, oh,
don't worry if you're being like it's almost feels like

(01:07:58):
this kind of gaslighting of like if if the boy
is mean to you, that means he likes you. That's
how the bullies are treated in this movie. They're like
the bullies. It's not treated like I think most bully
characters are now, which is that they are fundamentally insecure
and might have other stuff going on in their life
that causes them to lash out at other kids like this.
They're just like they probably like you. They just have

(01:08:21):
to do this. It's their job. The city pays them
to hit you with a paddle like and.

Speaker 5 (01:08:26):
That again reminds me more fraternities than any high school bully.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Yeah, I feel like high school bullying to me was
it was a psychological game.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
It was like, you know, dumping a kid's books as
they were walking down the hall sort of thing. But
to that point, Jamie, there are a couple scenes where
the older boys are talking to Mitch and giving advice
on oh, here's how to handle women, and of course
it's the worst advice you've ever heard, because things like, oh,

(01:09:01):
you want her, well, you got to play it cool,
and you can't let her know that you like her
because if she knows, she'll dump you, which is, you know,
basically telling a young teen to be really aloof and
dismissive about girl's feelings. And then later when he has
started to hang out with Julie, Mitch has the older

(01:09:26):
boys are like, oh, you're gonna have sex with her tonight,
in a way that is very like them encouraging Mitch
to be predatory and be like, if you want it,
take it, it's yours. You deserve it. Oh, you're like,
it's just horrifying. Does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Though?

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
I think technically it does, which is kind of hilarious.
Really let me double check, because this we always forget
to check this because ultimately it's not what the showsph
it's deceptive. I do believe that there's a few sort
of passes, but none of it's tricky to like identify
what a meaningful conversation in this movie means, I don't

(01:10:11):
know if it passes our version of the Bechtel test,
where it has to be a meaningful exchange, right, yeah, okay,
oh this is fun. On Bechdel Test dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Mm scholarly journal, frequent.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Resource for this show, there is hot debate the page
as it technically passes, but Caroline disagrees with this rating.
I love Caroline. I think that certainly, even if there's
like little two line exchanges that pass, spiritually it doesn't.

Speaker 6 (01:10:37):
NA.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
There's no like relationship between women in this movie that
is meaningful, I would say. And there are relationships between men,
including very toxic relationships, including like pretty positively framed relationships
between bullies and their victims yep, as like meaningful young
Like I'm not saying that this movie does a lot

(01:10:59):
for men, and it also doesn't do anything for men,
but like, yeah, with relationships between not men, name a
dynamic where that like sticks with you, there just isn't one,
So spiritually I say, no.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
Pest agree. And that brings us to our nipple scale,
where we rate the movie on a scale of zero
to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens
and based on everything we've talked about regarding the way
the movie treats women in that it's not interested in
them at all, the way women and girls are talked

(01:11:37):
about by the characters they you know, mostly men, characters
in a horribly dehumanizing and objectifying manner. The utter disinterest
in the one character of color, all of that. Uh, honestly,
I have to give this zero nipples. I don't. I

(01:12:00):
don't think it deserves any more than that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
The end, I kind of want to give it maybe
a half nipple, because there were little things that I like,
I felt promised in certain scenes and performances. Sure, but
the half nipple goes more to the actors who created
those moments versus the script or the direction.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
The Parker Posy of it all. For example, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
I'm gonna give half nipple because Yeah, Parker Posey put
her whole ass into that Parking Loss scene. She is amazing.
I one of the other movies that I really I
saw for the first time recently that I really want
to cover his party girl Oh the best because luckily
shortly after this, Parker Posy was allowed to fully Parker

(01:12:46):
Posy and was like in the Indie Darling of the century.
But yeah, I think like for moments like that. I
really thought that, like Sabrina's performance was very like sweet
and understated, and then she became an anti war activist.
Hard to, hard to. I'm giving it a half nipple,
and I'm just giving it to the girls. I'm just
giving it to the girls.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
All those bitches and sluts.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
All those bitches and sluts can have a little slice
of my half nipple.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Marius, how about you.

Speaker 6 (01:13:14):
Yeah, I'm going to go one nipple, partly because I
don't want to betray child me who saw this and
really enjoyed it fair, but also yeah, I think it
all goes back to Renees Alwigger helping Parker posy funnel.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
There there's a little.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Something there, feminist moment. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:13:39):
The intersectional part of it, no, not at all abysmal.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
No, there's no intersection. There's just section.

Speaker 4 (01:13:48):
There's just section there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Yeah, and barely even any of that to one. Yes. Nice. Well, Maris,
thank you so much for joining us in this discussion.

Speaker 4 (01:14:02):
This was so fun.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
Tell us where people can follow you on social media,
where people can buy your book, etc.

Speaker 5 (01:14:10):
My book is available wherever books are sold, and you
can find me at Mariscrisman dot com. That's where you
can sign up from my newsletter called the Maris Review.
And I'm also on Blue Sky at Maris And yeah,
please buy my book.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
Kay, please do please, it's amazing great. Well, I think
we thoroughly eviscerated this movie. So why don't we get
into a beat up old car and go buy Aerosmith tickets?

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
All right, all right, all right, bye bye. The Bechdel
Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante
and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board.
Our theme song was composed by Mike capp Ln with
vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch is designed

(01:15:04):
by Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo.
For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash
Bechdelcast