November 15, 2018 • 53 mins
You must remember this week's movie, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes with special guest Karina Longworth!
(This episode contains spoilers)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have in individualism the patriarchy zef
invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and
welcome to the bec Del Cast. My name is Jamie
Loftus and my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is
(00:20):
our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Is
that right? Boy? Is it? Wow? I said boy? Crap? Colloquialisms,
Uh don't count? Did they? I say? Man, dude and
boys so much and I feel like I need to
erase those from my vocabulary. So so instead, girl does it?
(00:42):
That's what I meant is do gender neutral? I use
it in in a gender neutral way, but I know
a lot of people who feel that it's masculine and
then don't like to be called to do. Well, wait,
what's our podcast again? So we talked about the representation
and portrayal of women in movies. We use the Bechtel
test is just a jumping off point to initiate a
(01:02):
larger conversation about representation. Oh yeah, If you're not familiar
with what the Bechdel test is, It is a media
test that you apply usually to movies, but really anything
with the narrative. It was first originated in a book
by Alison bechdel Um, and I wanted to briefly mention
that because a couple of fans of ours, Viola and Ti,
(01:26):
mentioned that the test was created by Queer dot Com
Alison bechdel Um, and then it was actually in the
comic strip it's um to lesbians talking about how little
representation there is of lesbians in movies. So I just
wanted to throw that out there that we recognize that,
and because what's happened with the test, it's kind of
been like appropriated by straight people. Yeah, So I just
(01:49):
wanted to call attention to that that it was specifically
the characters in the comic strip are talking about how
they see so little representation of QUERNI ship. Yeah. For
the purposes of our discussion, our version of the Bechdel
test requires that in a piece of media, two women
with names speak about something other than a man for
(02:10):
more than two lines of dialogue. You think it would
be easy, very little bar But if you've heard any
of our episodes before, you'll know that it is challenging
Oh yeah, Angel, some movies cheat what do you mean?
What was the one? And she's all that where they're like,
I think you should kill yourself and then she's like,
that's mean and that passes the Backtel test. But we
(02:34):
will do a better job than that. So let's demo it, Jamie. Okay, Hi, Caitlin,
Hey Jamie, what's up? Um? Nothing, just saying you out
with my gals talking about movies. Oh you know what
this movie made me? You have a new appreciation for
what's that flesh colored shorts? Yeah, there are some male
athletes who look nude. Well now we're yeah, I broke it.
(02:58):
We made we made two lives. But oh boy, those
flesh colored I forgot about the flesh tone shorts and
they really they really came on strong. And this one
we loved it certainly. All right, Well, without much further ado,
let's introduce our guests. We're so excited for our guest today.
She is the creator and host of You Must Remember
(03:19):
This podcast and author of Seduction Sex Lies in Stardom
in Howard Hughes Is Hollywood. It's Karina Longworth. Hi, Hi,
thanks for having me, Thanks for joining. Thank you. We've
been fan girling on the text tune. We're very excited, uh,
and we're excited to talk about this movie in particular.
(03:41):
Today we're discussing Gentlemen Prefer Blonde N three movie musical
comedy directed by Howard Hawks, Jane Russell, Marilyn Monroe. We
I don't think we've covered movies with either of them
in them before. I don't think so. No, so the
big first here on the Bechtel Cast today. It's nicely
like it's the only Marilyn in Rome movie I can
(04:03):
think of off the top of my head that where
she is basically paired against another woman. Yeah right, I'm not.
I've seen some like a Hot and I liked that
movie a lot, or at least I did pre Bectel
Cast to know I have to see it again and
then decide. But um, I haven't seen seven Year Itch,
and I don't really know. I'm not familiar with her
(04:23):
other work really, so I grew up with a Monroe
appreciating uncle who really laid it on thick, most likely
for all the wrong reasons. But I have seen a
lot of a lot of her movies. I hadn't seen
this movie in at least ten years. And I remembered
liking it, but I remember liking all of her movies,
(04:43):
and so I was pleasantly surprised and challenged by this
movie at a number of points where I thought, I,
you know, predicted because of the time it was made,
at what was going to happen, and very often I
was put in my fucking place if it was Karina,
what about you? What's your history your relationship with this movie.
(05:04):
I probably saw it for the first time when I
was a teenager, Um, when I kind of first discovered
Marilyn Monroe and and thought she was interesting. I don't
know how old you guys are, but like I was
a teenager in the nineties, and I like I remember,
pretty early in my awareness of who Marilyn Monroe was,
Elizabeth Hurley made this comment. If you guys heard this,
she basically said something like if I was as fat
(05:25):
as Marilyn Monroe, I would kill myself. Oh my god.
And like I just was just thinking about that today
because like, I mean, you watch this movie and she
does not look fat at all, and like, um, but
in the nineties and sort of waif culture, Um, I
remember watching this movie and thinking both she and Jane
Russell just had these like beautiful womanly bodies that like,
(05:47):
we're not really being represented in popular culture at that time.
And so that was probably like my first moment of
appreciation of the film. And and it's something where I've
seen it so many times now that I almost can't
even really enjoy it as a movie anymore because it's
I just know it so well. But then I was
watching it last night, and there are always things that
(06:07):
I forget about it, like in the diamonds are a
Girl's best friend, the fact that like the women and
the chandeliers are in bondage when I talk about and
and some just like some of the conversations like have
some really interesting aspects to them. There's some lines of
dialogue that I was just like, what did you just say?
But wow, okay, yeah, I had never seen this movie
(06:32):
and I just watched it the other day for the
first time. Well, you know what, I didn't like it,
But I'm not going to let that, you know, really
cloud any judgment in terms of our discussion what didn't
you what didn't you like about it? For we, I
feel like it took forever to get a story going.
(06:52):
I feel like you don't really know Hollywood musicals. Yeah,
I don't know. We can talk about it in the discussion,
but this is just never going to be a movie
that I was gonna enjoy. But but but I'm excited
to talk about it. Okay, So I'll do the recap
of the story. So we meet Lord l Lee that's
(07:14):
Marilyn Monroe's character. And we meet Dorothy Shaw and that's
Jane Russell. They are best friends and they are like
a performing duo who sings and dances. They're singing about Arkansas.
They look great. We love them. Lor Lae is engaged
to a man named Gus Esmond. He's a rich guy
who showers her with gifts, but whose father disapproves of
(07:38):
lor Lae because he thinks that she's like a gold digger, which,
to be fair, she gets with strategy, right, yes, And
lore Lae and Gus are going to travel to France
to get married, and Dorothy is going to go along
on this trip to chaperone at kind of vague reasons. Yeah,
it seems like it's like at the quest of Gus,
(08:01):
but but then he also doesn't seem to wander there
either way. We gotta get why didn't you just go
with him, because he later shows up in France. I
think for business reasons, you can't go on the same boat.
And that's why Dorothea is there because he knows that
left to her own devices, the Marilyn and character will
probably just like hook up with another rich dude. She does,
(08:23):
so Dorothy is supposed to be stopping that. But Dorothy,
you know, is very easily distracted by attractive men. Classic
Olympic team distraction. I yeah, I mean that they enable
each other in fun ways. Oh yes, yeah, and then
get on what's basically the Titanic a lot of Titanic.
(08:46):
It's like this movie is like what if the Titanic
didn't didn't crash but was sexy but was really hot.
So Lorala is on the hunt for a rich man
on the boat um possibly do for Dorothy? Yes, And
Dorothy is chasing after these Olympians because, unlike Lorel, she
(09:07):
cares more that a man is handsome than he is rich,
so or like I would argue like can give her
pleasure or something like that. It's kind of like the
money versus pleasure argument with them. Meanwhile, there's this guy
named Mr. Malone and he is trying to get close
to Lorela and Dorothy, and at first we don't really
know why. There's this all guy named Mr Beakman a k.
(09:30):
Piggy Old Piggy because I got Piggy. Piggy owns a
diamond mine. So Lorela is like trying to cozy up
next to Old Piggy and Piggy's like, yeah, she thinks
I'm hot. Should we know that Piggy is like older
and overweight and it's not attractive. He doesn't hit the
(09:55):
Western standards of beauty that we're used to. He's got
a monocle, though, does and that's kind of hot. It
does kind of look like Mr Monopoly, he truly does.
I guess Mr Monopoly would have also been a philandering, misogynist, right.
So Lorrea Lee sees Piggy's wife's diamond tiara, and she
(10:17):
for freaking loves and she's like, I gotta have that.
So while all that's happening, Dorothy and Mr Malone are
like giving each other the q D eye until she
sees him spying on and taking photos of Loria Lee
while she's with Piggy, which is just like the scene
in the gym in Titanic, right, so then Dorothy is like, oh,
(10:41):
he must be a private eye. That Gus is. I
think Dad higher just what she speculates to keep tabs
on Laura Lee because he's just trying to shut down
these impending nuptials between Loria Lee and Gus. So then
Dorothy she's disappointed that her new crush is a spy.
But and she and Lorela were like, crap, you gotta
(11:03):
get these incriminating photos from him. They're like, let's do
a very difficult, problematic thing to watch in two thousand
and eighteen. Let us drug Mr Malone and strip him
and rob him. Yep, you know we can talk about
it and you can talk about it there. When that
(11:24):
scene started, I was like, oh, oh no, I forgot
about this part. And then it just gets like more
and more and more intense. And then because they're like
gaslighting him, he's like, what's in this drink? And he
was like, oh, it's just vodka and and that we're Lorias.
They turn up the heat, let's roast him, kill him,
Let's do it. Uh. Oh it was crack, and then
(11:49):
never mentioned again. Next day he's he's like, are you
broken up? Like you should honestly break up with Jane Russell.
If that yeah, that's good behavior goes both ways. Baby,
you can't roofy anyone. No, And then, and maybe this
(12:10):
is just me not knowing how boats work, but they
somehow get the photos developed on the boat, as if
there's a dark room on the Titanic. I mean back
in the day when people everybody used to take photos
on film, like you could get photos developed almost anywhere,
so I would believe it, Like I mean, I wasn't
(12:30):
alive in the fifties, but in the eighties, like literally
you get photos developed on any corner, Okay, I did.
I found it a little difficult to suspend my disbelief
for their being a dark room on a ship, but hey,
maybe maybe there was. I don't know, let's go with it.
I also, the picture that is developed is so funny whatever,
(12:51):
like the goat and the snake and the picture right,
they're doing like an act out of like how animals
eat each other, and it's it is incriminating, I suppose. So.
Then so for some reason this is even crazier to me.
Louraa shows the photos to Piggy. She did not need
to do that. She could have just destroyed the film,
(13:13):
but that's not what happens. Instead, she's like, here, here's
what would have incriminated us if these photos got out,
And then Piggy's like, Wow, you're so awesome for showing
me these I'm going to give you a gift about it. Oh,
I think that was her playing a long game. That
was how I interpreted that of like, she'll definitely get
something now, but she also might get something later if
(13:35):
she just doesn't outright blackmail him. They're like, hey, I'm
on your side, and then she'll still have those pictures forever. Okay,
that makes me like her character even less but more Tiara, right.
So then he's like, oh, how about you know, give
you a motorcycle or something. She's like, no, I went
your wife's diamond Tiara now, so he gives it to her.
(13:58):
He like, seems reason so full. Then it's revealed that
Mr Malone was audio recording that conversation, so he still
has incriminating evidence against her, and it's like, bro, if
you have the equipment, just start a podcast. You know,
don't exploit women. Um So then Dorothy's like, hey, Malone,
(14:19):
I like you, but if you try to, you know,
exploit my friend, I'm not gonna like you anymore. So
then they get to Friends and share Board, which is
where Titanic left from, and there's a shopping montage and
then love It, and then we get to the hotel
where Lady Beakman Piggy's why his wife. His wife accuses
(14:41):
Lorlae of stealing the diamond Tiara Um and then the
hotels like, you guys can't stay here because much like
a little scene in a movie called Titanic where someone
except this time she actually did have yeah, but you
know a robbery scene involving a diamond related Robert Yeah,
(15:01):
specifically about diamonds. Yes. And then Malone had told Gus's
dad about the goings on with Laura Lee, so he's like,
the wedding is off. And then here's when things get
really wild where the cops show up to arrest Laura Lee.
So she runs away, and then Dorothy pretending to be
(15:22):
Lorea Lye in like a blonde wig or maybe she
dyed her hair blonde. She goes to court because you know,
when you're arrested, you immediately go to court. Afterwards court,
so that happens, and then Malone shows up and he's
all like he's about to sell out Laura Lee. But
Dorothy's like, hey, I'm Laura Lee, but my friend Dorothy
(15:42):
is in love with you. But if you say anything
bad about her, I won't love you anymore. And he's
like never mind. J K. She blackmails him in public.
He's like okay, It's like okay, And then he figures
out where the tiara is and it gets returned to Piggy,
and then Laura Line and Dorothy, Mary Us and Malone
and kiss and that's the end of the movie. Sure
(16:07):
is I didn't hear anything weirder or or I happened.
So to answer a question, Um, the story that unfolds
is why I don't like this movie. Okay, it's a
stupid story, but oh okay, but I'm willing to hear
everyone's arguments to the contrary. Okay, where do we Where
(16:27):
do we start? Um? I just wanted to note that
the source material, even though the I believe the screenplay
was written by a man, but the source material is
from a screenwriter named Anita Loose who's also a novelist
and was like one of the first I think contract
female screenwriters, or she wrote most of Douglas Fairbanks first movies.
(16:51):
She was one of the biggest screenwriters during the Silent Era,
and then in the nineteen thirties she really helped to
shape Geene Harlowe's persona by writing some of her movie
and then she wrote several memoirs about her time in
Hollywood which are really great. Um, so she's a cool lady.
And she initially wrote Gentlemen Prefer Blondes as a serial
that was published I think in Harper's Bazaar, and it
(17:13):
was inspired by, um, this friend of hers, h. L. Mencken,
who was a New York intellectual who you know, was
a middle aged man, extremely intelligent, and he was just
like completely overwhelmed by his attraction to some little blonde
show girl. And so Nita Lowe's basically wrote this satire
about how somebody who could easily be dismissed as like
(17:36):
a dumb blonde Fluzi was actually incredibly smart and cunning
and was able to intellectually overpower in her own way
like a giant of letters. Yeah, and that happens in
the movie, I think, Yeah, I mean it happens a
bunch of times there. Woman. Be Let's start there with
the how men are portrayed in this movie before we
(17:58):
get to lor Lye and Dorothy Um, yeah, I mean
it's it's definitely like played for comedy a lot. How
men are in this movie are absolutely handicapped immediately by
their own erections and like willing to do almost anything
to even spend time with Loria Lie be anywhere near her.
(18:21):
We see it with Gus, who I don't think we're
led to believe he's an idiot. He's not a brilliant man.
He's no man of letters. No, but he's you know,
he's he's wearing glasses, that's Hollywood go free. He's not dumb,
He's got some stuff going for him, but he you know,
as anytime Loura lie says something needs something, asked for something,
(18:42):
no matter how irrational, he gives it to her. I
don't know. And I mean the same goes for Piggy,
But I I don't know. I mean, this is seems
like a very dated foreman. I feel like almost plays
into I was thinking about when we watched Teeth Caitlin
and how you know women are sometimes portrayed as these
(19:02):
cunning creatures that want to take things from you and
need to sort of be neutered, uh in order and domesticated,
and you see kind of shades of that, but Loyaliz's
character always wins and always gets what she wants, and
so it feels like those sorts of stories are being
commented on sort of where she is genuinely very manipulative
(19:27):
and cunning, which women are commonly accused of being, but
she also gets what she wants and isn't in the end,
isn't punished for wanting those things, which seems like a victory, right,
I guess what bothers me about it? Like there's a
scene at the very end whenever she finally is face
to face with Gus's father, who has long disapproved of
(19:50):
her and the idea of her, and you see him
start to warm up to her because she's pretty, and
who says the lines and like, hey, I thought you
were supposed to be stupid it, but you're not. And
I'm confused. Now She's like, guys, just give me three
minutes alone with your father and then everything would be
fine in her breathy voice. But then it cuts immediately
(20:13):
to their wedding, so we don't even get to see like,
and we do see other scenes where she's like, you know,
cunning and coy with her sort of like manipulation. But
I feel like there was an opportunity to like, see, okay,
let's let's see her be smart and do something. Well,
that speech she gives at the end I thought was
like pretty effective in demonstrating that point where essentially when
(20:35):
she is confronted with the father and he's like, hey,
you're as hot as they say, anyways, you can't marry
my son, and she has what I thought was like
a really cool, interesting speech about what is it if
a girl is pretty, that's not the reason you marry her,
but it certainly helps, which is you know, we can
(20:56):
unpack that statement all day, but she is like demonstrating
that she understands what she's doing. She's not ashamed of it,
and she doesn't think she has to be. And I
don't know, well, she's contrasting basically, the father is accusing
her of the only one in to marry her son
for his money, and she's like, look, she's contrasting being
beautiful as being a value in a woman to being
(21:17):
rich and a value in a man. And she's talking
about this double standard, and I think as aggressive of
language as an actress like Marilyn Monroe could in a
movie of nine three sure for sure. Yeah, and then
and then then the scene before when she says to
us something you came to like, Well, I didn't become
this way because I wanted to like. The way society
(21:39):
is set up made me this way, right, which I
think is like basically the thesis of that character, which
is that she understands that the world is set up
to exploit her, and so she's all of her behavior
is kind of a defense mechanism, like she's beating people
to the punch by exploiting them. And you can argue
as to whether or not that's good feminism, but I
(22:00):
think for the time it was a certain kind of progressive. Yeah,
that's true, and seems to have a level of practicality
to it, where I mean, I I don't know. We
I would argue that, you know, they're they're sort of
representing two different kinds of feminism, where Marilyn Monroe's character
is more of a survival based understands that society values
(22:23):
her until she's a certain age or until she looks
a certain way, and then she's on her own. So
she's like kind of stockpiling now, so she'll be set
later because we have to assume there will be limited
opportunities for her as she gets older. So in some
ways that like level of self preservation and just good
(22:44):
old fashioned redistributing the wealth. That certainly, I guess it
just bugs me a little bit that a large part
of what she does to sort of exploit people, or
so she's using largely her looks and kind of like
feminine wiles to get what she wants, and because women
(23:06):
have historically been valued only for their looks, I find
that a bit troubling. But also maybe the fact that
she's using that very idea and using it to get
what she wants is good. I don't know. I just
you know, what I mean is to look at it.
I mean, I think in the context of the time
(23:28):
this is being made, her options are limited, sure, just
by what society will allow women to do. And of
course there's like always outliers there, and we could argue
that loyal I should go to college and get a
doctorate and become a scientist and now become a woman
(23:48):
in stem Yes, queen go off and you know, really
defeat the patriarchy single handedly. But given I don't know.
I I understand, and I feel like that the movie
goes out of its way more than an average movie
of this time to get across to you that she
is trying to survive the only way she knows how
(24:11):
um with I mean, with the support of a man.
But also I don't I don't know. I I ended
up liking moralized character a lot more than I thought
that I would, And and Dorothy's as well. They I mean,
they're both symbols from the survival, but only because she's
like on st are they're going to do to pay
the bills. When she turns, she's the one who's gone
(24:34):
and become a woman in stem she's gonna be like, Okay,
I've had all the sex. I'm going back to school there.
But he had a similar discussion on the Breakfast at
Tiphanies episode another movie that I simply do not like.
But I understand that because women have had to kind
(24:55):
of use unconventional ways to get things, uh you know,
hapital or opportunities and things like that because they've not
been afforded to us historically. That is something I appreciate
and like to see stories about. But I guess when
it's like, Hey, I'm a beautiful woman, and let me
exploit that to get the things I want. Like, I
(25:16):
don't know, I guess it's just because great that that's
available to you. But what about all the women who aren't,
you know, conventionally attractive by Western beauty standards. Like what,
It's a very individual approach, sure, for sure. Um, Hey,
let's take a quick break and then we'll come right
back for more. Okay, and we're back. So, Karina, this
(25:41):
is like your old Hollywood this is your expertise. So
what are you? What are your thin? Well? I mean,
I I enjoy the movie more than you do. Um.
I think that it's fair to say that the storyline
is thin and silly, but that's part of of just
being a musical comedy of nineteen fifty three. I also
(26:04):
think that this movie kind of critiques previous musical comedies
in various ways. I mean, and that was typical of
musical Hollywood musicals of the nineteen fifties, is that they
had a meta quality to them. Singing in the Rain
would be another example of that, where they're sort of
quoting previous musicals and making them a little bit more ridiculous.
While at the same time also blowing you away by
(26:24):
certain technical things like choreography and costuming. But I mean,
I've read about this in my new book Seduction, Sex
Lies and started in hollywoodward Hollywood because of Jane Russell,
who was the second of two actresses who Howard Hughes
basically discovered and turned into major stars. And basically previous
to this movie, Jane Russell was most known for being
(26:45):
and Howard Who's is the Outlaw, but really most known
for being in the publicity surrounding Howard hugh'ses the Outlaw,
which was entirely built around exploiting her breasts and showing
as much of them as Hughes could get away with
at the time, and at the time, like right after
this movie came out, Hughes was sued by some of
the shareholders in the studio he owned, r KO, and
(27:07):
the main focus of their complaint was that they thought
that Jane Russell was a waste of money and that
she wasn't a good actress, wasn't a good star, and
that he had squandered the shareholders money building her up.
But the timing of their lawsuit was really unfortunate because
it came to court right after A Gentleman Prefer Blonde
came out and had been a massive hit, one of
the top ten highest grossing movies of the year. It
(27:29):
was the biggest blockbuster of the summer, and it turned
her into a star almost as big as Marion le Monroe.
So that lawsuit didn't go very well for the shareholders. Um.
But one of the things that I do find really
interesting about this film is the fact that she had
been absolutely the target of like the most withering male gaze.
I mean. Also, the other thing about the Outlaw is
(27:50):
that a lot of it is built around a rape scene,
and a lot of the publicity around it featured like
a cartoon of the rape scene. So this is all
detail in my book as well. But so she went
from that to playing this role of Dorothy and Gentlemen
Prefer Blonde, where it's all about her gaze, it's all
about her objectifying men. Her costumes are comparatively really covered
(28:12):
up compared to what she had worn previously, especially this
scene where she is like singing about her sexual desire
for these Olympic dancers, like they are wearing tshtone shorts
that make them look naked. And she is wearing a
high necked, comparatively high necked black jumpsuit. You can't really
see her cleavage, which was what she was known for
(28:33):
at the time. And she's not it's not a thing
where she's singing about I want these men to want me.
She's singing about how she wants them right. So I
think all of that is really interesting. I mean, I
love Jane Russell, and a lot of the reason why
I love Jane Russell is because of this movie. Yeah,
I really liked her character a lot. Um. I would
say I prefer hers w Brunette there Ca, prefer new
(29:00):
movie coming out, new what men um. That scene was
so interesting and having that context for it is so
helpful because I assumed that that scene was just commentary
on other musicals, like what you were saying, where you know,
you're going through the screen full of women in various
bathing suits and treating them is set dressing and and
(29:23):
all that that happens all the time, even now. But
that scene was so fun and it seemed to communicate
it like it knew exactly what it was doing. Jane
Russell's great in it. She's so funny and all the
all the Olympian men were just vacant. They're all none
of them. They were just flexing. They just bodies. They're
(29:45):
just exactly like they weren't even allowed to in the
way that some scenes like that would like the women
turns to the guy who's singing and goes like, oh,
but like they didn't even they were just there. They
were automaton, flesh toned muscle boys. Yeah, yeah, for sure,
it was great. But I would say that while both
(30:05):
of these characters, both Lorlie and Dorothy, the story boils
down to basically a friendship between two women and the
things that they want and how they try to get them,
but they're also framed pretty much entirely by the men
that they're attracted to, Like what type of man they're
going for. That's how like their personalities are defined to us,
(30:27):
or like like she goes for this kind of guy,
so she's this girl. And Dorothy goes for glasses spy,
and so she she's this girl. Right, So using that
as a way to like characterize women is you know,
not the best way to do it, but we still yeah,
I mean, because I mean they're two very distinguishable women.
(30:48):
But there, I would say pretty still archetypal, where it's
like Loreali is the like blonde, dizzy, airheaded, doesn't know
what a tr is, right, doesn't understand where Frances this
kind of thing, although that exchange does past the Bactel test. Yeah,
I mean a place to even the stereotypes of blondes
and brunettes in some ways, although I guess, I mean,
(31:12):
I don't know. I guess I'd have to revisit the
old Trope book because I don't know that brunettes would
be portrayed as like seeking constant sexual stimulation and pleasure. Right,
I guess she's framed as because she's not blonde, she's
just like different from that like archetypal, like ditzy blonde type. So,
and because she's not blonde, that means she's smart instead
(31:35):
of airhead. And she's sarcastic. And that's basically what we
know about Dorothy. I kind of wanted, well, I wanted
to talk about the title of the movie Gentlemen Prefer Blondes,
because one, it reduces women to their hair color, which
means it's objectifying women's all of Marilyn's career, and this
is something that happens within this movie and in countless
(31:57):
other ones. So that's you know, not read uh. And
it perpetuates the idea that like the blonde bombshell is
the ideal standard of beauty for women, which has long
been perpetuated by the media and movies like this one.
I I mean, as it pertains to Dorothy's character, I
(32:17):
like her a lot. I liked her relationship with Malone felt,
you know, more authentic than a lot of relationships. I
think they've got banter. She you know, she starts out
by kind of calling him out. Where in that first
interaction they have at the table, he is lying to her,
but he's saying like, oh, I'm rich and I've got
(32:39):
all this stuff, and she's like, you know, funk off,
that's not what I'm interested in. Leave me alone. And
and I found that, besides the fact that you know,
she roufies him, he lize to her, those two things aside.
I found the relationship to be very pleasant or more
you know. And again it's like we have to contextualize
everything with a movie like this, And for for this time,
(33:02):
I thought it was a kind of a sweet relationship,
and you know, to the end, it could have been
very easy for him to, you know, do his job
and not do what she told him to to save
the relationship. But he does. He values her above spying
on Marilyn Monroe. I would argue that he she is
(33:23):
very forgiving of his not that great behavior. I do
she rufies him, though that's true, No one really comes
out of yeah to quote some like it hot. On
one hand, there is that classic like guy initiating a
relationship under false under a false identity thing, but then
(33:44):
she rufies him, so is it a lot? But she
has to tell him, like so often what she I
don't I don't know why I'm about to try to
defend a rufie scene. But she only does that because
he's sneaking around spying on her friend. To me, this
whole storyline plays out where she has to keep being like,
(34:04):
you keep trying to funk with my friend, and I
like my friends, so you better not do that. But
if you don't do it, even if that's where your intentioned,
or I'm gonna you know, well she bailed on him
when he didn't that immediately takes him back another Well,
we don't know how much time passes necessarily, but they're
not to like come to the extreme defense of this movie.
(34:27):
But I I feel that might be a little bit
reductive of how that relationship works, because Dorothy does tell
Malone to go frick himself if you will, when it
comes down to he's going to keep sabotaging her friendship,
which for both of them seems like the most important
thing to them. Where there's even that scene where Dorothy
(34:48):
and Malone there on the deck, it's all very tightan
you know, and Malone makes a jab at Lorala, and
Dorothy immediately is like, I can talk about her that way.
You don't know her, you can't talk about her. She's
actually very smart, and don't do that, and and you know,
clearly defines the boundaries of you know, Loreline Dorothy are
(35:11):
critical of each other, but they respect each other and
care about each other and want the best, even though
in Loyaliz's case, she kind of wants her version of
the best. Dorothy, Yeah, I suppose, how do you I
don't know, what do you make of that friendship? I
actually think that it's um it's really positive, especially for
the time period. I mean, there are just not a
(35:32):
lot of movies where you have two female stars who
were treated by the movie as equals. You know, I
can name a few others, but like, I think that
for that time period, it was really really unusual, and
I do think that it is more central to the
movie than any of the male female relationships. And also,
like I guess I just wanna one thing I don't
(35:54):
think we've like stated in these words so much is
that I don't think that what Laurel I is ultimately
going after is rich men. I think she's going after diamonds.
Like her real love affair is with diamonds, and it's
with this idea of accumulating wealth, and this is her
way of doing it. Like there's a whole song about it,
and diamonds are a girl's best friend, and I think
(36:15):
like the staging of that song really plays up the
idea that like, because she accumulates wealth, she's free, whereas
these women behind her are like dressed in black and
are like literally tied up. And so I mean it's
you know, obviously it's skewed, and it's also satire, but
I actually just think that, like so many of the
(36:36):
messages in this film are positive. Yeah, I liked this
the way this movie plays the friendship. I was like
so surprised by it every turn because you and even
in movies now occasionally you'll see a friendship break because
you know that the husband wanted this or the boyfriend
wanted this, and you know, women can have friends, but
(36:58):
at the end of the day, the romantic relationship is
going to take precedence and could break off. But they
make it so clear that that is never going to
be the case. And it's also just nice or something
that I don't think you see very much to see
two women who view the same thing. I don't know,
a victory and bipartisanship is Laura Lee and Dorothy's friendship
(37:22):
because they they view life in a fundamentally different way,
but they appreciate each other. They don't let it ruin
their friendship, even though they're constantly like debating is money
or fucking more important? Which jury is still out We
don't know, uh, but I don't know. I I appreciated
how they that could have so easily been played into
(37:43):
like constant like cat fight e stuff. Definitely, but they
had like actual conversations about it. And you know, when
Loria I would try to push her viewpoint on Dorothy,
Dorothy be like no, I'm going to, you know, frick
the Olympic team, see you lay her because when she
does try to do that, she accidentally sents Dorothy up
with a child who who I'm pretty sure is like
(38:08):
a creep in the making, because he has a few
lines where he's like, oh, I appreciate a good looking women,
and then he's like, I'll help you because you've got
a lot of animal magnetism. Marilyn Monroe accidentally Winnie the
Poos herself she gets stuck in a port hole. I
was like, I can't believe they're they're Winnie the poohing
(38:29):
her or I don't know which came first. Either way,
she's a honeypot Winnie the Pooing and she needs a
little Christopher Robin to yank her out that was dying
at the scene. Yeah, that was really what a treat.
Uh Yeah, I mean that really the only thing with
that friendship were the main thing with the movie that
(38:51):
I felt like wasn't really commentary and was sort of
just playing to like, and this is how a movie ends,
is the double wedding end. There was like the only
major thing that happens in this movie that I was
not like that's kind of sure. I guess I guess
that that's how movies end at this time. But even
(39:11):
that is like, is putting the friendship above either of
these relationships, because like, neither woman is um is saying like,
you can't be part of my wedding day. We want
to do this together. You know, neither neither one is
like it's like I'm the star here, it's my day.
It's more like it's our day, right, that's true, And
they're yeah, they married each other. I mean, maybe that's
(39:35):
what the movie is saying that they're really doing. Maybe
just coded. Yeah, oh I like that. I guess for me,
it boils down to and this is maybe just simply
a preference thing, But because I agree that the friendship
between them is represented in a by and large positive
way where they're constantly defending each other, but they're also
(39:55):
challenging each other but in healthy ways, and they general
really are trying to help and support each other. What
I don't like is that the things that they're trying
to do or to get are framed entirely around men.
What I prefer, I guess, in like a female friendship
story is something like Thelman Louise, where you know, you
(40:18):
got to supportive friends and the men have fucked them over,
so they're just going to go and shoot up a
bunch of you know, convenience stores instead. Sure, that's just
my preference, my Caitlin prefers. I mean, I think I'm
sure that there's a way you could sort of show
(40:39):
a movie like Gentlemen Prefer Blondes as paving the way
for other movies that to exist. Of just you know,
if there were no movies portraying two women and uh,
you know, Ride or Die friendship, I think that you
know those movies really quick before we wrap up the discussion,
I wanted to give a quick shot out to Lady Beekman.
(41:02):
Lady Beakman, I you know you feel for her because
even there there's some commentary of Piggy is this hornial
dumbass with a lot of diamonds who is actively philandery
on his wife who we meet, who is originally very
nice to Dorothy and to Lorelai and then later comes
(41:23):
back for the Tierra, which I applied her for. Um.
I just wanted to give a quick shout out to
Lady Beekman, who did nothing to anyone no, Yeah, she
just has a creepy old husband. Just let her live. Yeah.
A couple of lines of dialogue that I wrote down
that I Dorothy says, I like a man who can
(41:45):
run faster than I can, which sounds terrifying. No, I
want a very slow man. Um personally, Caitlin prefers Sloman.
I forget which one of them says this. I think
it might be Dorothy. But someone says, if we can't
empty his pockets between us, we're not worthy of the
(42:07):
name woman. But that's like about the person they're roofing. Yes,
it is fair if like two women can't like I've
passed out manet and they do so, they don't think
that's exactly what they keep the name women. Um Gus
says about Lorla, I'm going to make her marry me. Yeah,
(42:30):
that was not and love and and there was one
little grabby from Malone from Malone that was like, oh yeah.
He says to Dorothy, I'm not wrong about you, and
you're gonna listen to me, and says this while he's
angrily grabbing her arm and turning him, turning her toward him.
It's so hard to know. I think they're just playing
(42:51):
a complicated game of dominance and submission. Actually, it's fine.
We just didn't see the whole contract, seeing like in
the sensors cut that out there. Um a quick fun
thing that I found on IMDb And maybe Karina you
know about this. But a couple of years after Gentlemen
(43:13):
Prefer Blonde, Jane Russell was in another movie called Gentleman
Mary Brunettes. But it doesn't seem to be a sequel
or any type of In no way is it related.
She doesn't play the same character. Like Weirdly, Anita Loris
did write a sequel to Gentlemen Prefer Blondes called Gentleman
Mary Brunette's. But then when it came time to make
(43:33):
this movie. I think her niece actually wrote the movie
Mary Anita Loose, but they just like throughout the original
story because they couldn't get Marilyn Monroe. Um, so they
just did something else. I haven't seen that film. Okay, interesting,
we gotta take a quick break, but we'll come right back. Okay, Hey,
(43:56):
let's talk about it. Whether or not this movie passes
the Bechdel test, right, it's interesting. I was reading a
lot of criticism of this movie after watching it and
getting all my own thoughts, you know, shouted out, etcetera.
A lot of critics say this movie does not pass
the Backtel test, and they must be, I think, using
a different version than we are, perhaps, yeah, because there
are certain caveats and variations on on the test. But again,
(44:19):
for our sake, it's just a at least two lines
between female identifying characters who are not talking about men.
Using that standard, I would say the movie does. Yeah.
A bunch of times. Well, I would say, if I
only found a couple, I think hit me, Okay, here's
here we go. Dorothy says, not Europe France, frances in Europe.
(44:42):
Lore Lie says, who says it wasn't. Dorothy says, well,
you wouldn't say like, oh, where's North America Mexico? Would you?
And she's like, well, that's where I wanted to go?
I would that passes silly. It's there's a lot of
the passes I came up with. It's it's tricky because
the subtext of what they're talking about very almost nearly
(45:04):
all the time is marriage and men. And because that's
the central debate of these characters is how do they
view this? Um so I mean, there are some I
got like six or seven passes of like on the page.
They're not technical about men technically, but the subtext of
the whole movie it's hard. Yeah, they might not mention
a man's name in the conversation, but I would say
(45:25):
almost every single conversation they have is either about a
specific man or they're talking about the concept of loving
men or finding a man. Passes a few times in
theory when they're in the process of roof being malone,
they're talking about stealing picks. They're talking about turning up
the heat but from a man, and to make a
man uncomfortable. So I mean it's it's I mean, the
(45:45):
very and as we always say, it's a flawed metric perfect.
The whole thing this movie is trying to comment on
is like how women perceive marriage and men and how
like how to survive and get and live a fulfilling
life at this time. So it's kind of I mean,
it's a tricky movie to pass, sure, Yeah, for sure,
(46:07):
although Lady Beikman and Laura I talk about diamonds. Sure,
but yeah, almost every conversation between women is about men,
either in subtext or context or like explicitly, but does
pass our standards go movie. One quick thing that I
wanted to mention is there's a moment where whenever Gus's
(46:29):
father is like, hey, they told me you were stupid,
and Laura Lie says, I can be smart when it's important,
but most men don't like it. Which there are a
couple of lines like that that I do appreciate where
she kind of like challenges the status quo or she
points out a double standard. I would have liked that
to happen more. But again, thinking about the movie being three,
(46:49):
and yeah, this is paving the way for more progressive
texts to come down the pipeline. But um, yeah I didn't.
I think I came down too hard on Laura Lie. Um,
but that's just because I'm a brunette and women are
defined by their hair color. And then can God, yeah,
I just I wanted I thought that was that was cool.
And the there's a line where she's talking to Gusts
(47:12):
and she says, and we touch on this briefly, but
I don't wanted to read the quote. It's men like
you who have made me the way I am, and
if you love me at all, you'd feel sorry for
the terrible troubles I've been through instead of holding them
against me. So yeah, those are those are moments. I
appreciate it great. I feel like that. Yeah, all this
entire you know, reaches its logical conclusion by the end
(47:34):
of the movie. And I don't know, I thought this
movie held held up pretty damn well given that it's
over what sixty sixty five years old, um, and a
lot of that, I mean, all the typical um prejudices
and issues of the era are on full display, where
(47:54):
I mean, unfortunately goes without saying that this is an
entirely white movie. This is an entirely straight movie. This
is you know, all that is fully what it is,
uh in nineteen fifty three. But given the time, I
was very impressed with this movie, and I would watch
it again. Well, let's rate it, speaking of you know,
how we fail about it zero to five nipples based
(48:17):
on its portrayal and representation of women. I am going
to give it, I would say like a two. And
maybe it's because I don't really like this movie that
maybe I did let it cloud my judgment. But while
I do appreciate the female friendship and how it probably
(48:40):
did pave the way for more progressive movies about female
friendship to be made. I think that because the goals
of the women are defined entirely by and framed entirely
around the type of men that they're after. I think also,
this movie was funded by the dime industry, Like is
(49:02):
that true? Probably not, but but like what it's okay,
it was funded by twenties century Fox. But it it
does like actually promote the names of several diamond Tiffany. Yeah,
so I just Kalen didn't like the movie. I didn't
like the movie. I do appreciate a few of the
(49:24):
things that does it. You know, it does challenge different
gender specific double standards. It does show a positive female friendship.
I don't know the fact that the only thing we
really know about them is the type of men that
they want, and the only thing we see them do
is things to either land a man or in some
cases several different men. If you're talking about Laura La,
(49:46):
which is fine, Hey, if you want to fuck a
bunch of people, do it. Also, Gus is like really
possessive of her and like jealous, and he's like you
need a shap around because I don't trust you, because
you're a woman who's hot, and so you're probably gonna
up to be fair, he cannot trust her, true, Maybe
he's not like stereotyping her. Maybe he's just like seeing
(50:08):
her flirt with other which that's based on and there
is that rufi scene. But also why would you send
like to chaperone someone like, you know, who's really going
to hold her accountable, her best friend in the world.
It was also like DTF, like crazy, It was like
the morning, let me about the horniest person she does.
(50:31):
This is gonna work out great. So yeah, I'm gonna
I'm gonna probably this is probably too low, but I'm
sticking with the two nipples, and I'm going to give
one to eat of mc gal's, one to Marilyn Monroe
and one to Jane Russell. Cool. Well, I guess I
I don't know what a five would be, and I
but I'm going to say four. Yeah, cool, I think
(50:52):
I'm gonna split the diff do with three, maybe three
and a half. I think that it's something we didn't
really karany you spoke to a few times. Was even
the way this movie is framed is a little bit
different and not how we're used to seeing. I mean, certainly,
Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell are fully made up and
gorgeous this whole movie. The costumes are incredible, But the
(51:15):
male gaze. I feel like this movie is aware of
the male gaze and subverts it several times in a
way that is like really effective and interesting and definitely
not typical of the time. The whole ain't there anyone
here for love? Scene that was like so cool and
um exciting and hopefully cathartic for Jane Russell, Um, who
(51:37):
is you know, for once not the center of you know,
she's controlling the camera and where the camera goes instead
of being pursued by it. And lor and Dorothy are
the only ones who kind of break the fourth wall
in the musical scenes, and it just I don't know,
they felt fully in control of the movie and generally
(51:57):
the story, and we're equipped to solve the problem is
that they were sent to although of course you're you're
totally right that they're sort of defined by their views
of men in the world. Um, so I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna do three and a half and I'll give
two to Jane one in Maryland and half to Lady Beekman. Yeah,
(52:19):
she earned it. She worked hard. I'm getting I don't
know anything about it. Well, Corna, thank you so much
for being here, Thanks for having so much fun. Plug
whatever you want. Well. My book in which I read
about this film and others made by Jane Russell Seduction, sex,
Lies and Stardom in Howard Hughes's Hollywood. It will be
in your local bookstore. It's great. I can't wait to
(52:42):
read it. Where can people fall you online? And oh
I'm on Twitter at Karina Longworth and you can find
my podcast. You must remember this on iTunes. Yeah, people
listen to it. It's so good, three years of listening strong.
Thank you. You can follow us on social media at
(53:02):
Bechtel Cast. You can go to our patreonic a Matreon
and that's five dollars a month and we have to
bonus episodes for you every single month. What a gift,
What a treat O. Yes, um, yes, you can go
to our merch store t public dot com slash the
Bechtel Cast and you've got you know your favorites, feminist icon,
(53:25):
queer icon, feminist icon, Alfred Molina, all the designs you
could ever want, the stuff, So check that out and
what hey, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening,
to see you later by
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have in individualism the patriarchy zef
invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and
welcome to the bec Del Cast. My name is Jamie
Loftus and my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is
(00:20):
our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Is
that right? Boy? Is it? Wow? I said boy? Crap? Colloquialisms,
Uh don't count? Did they? I say? Man, dude and
boys so much and I feel like I need to
erase those from my vocabulary. So so instead, girl does it?
(00:42):
That's what I meant is do gender neutral? I use
it in in a gender neutral way, but I know
a lot of people who feel that it's masculine and
then don't like to be called to do. Well, wait,
what's our podcast again? So we talked about the representation
and portrayal of women in movies. We use the Bechtel
test is just a jumping off point to initiate a
(01:02):
larger conversation about representation. Oh yeah, If you're not familiar
with what the Bechdel test is, It is a media
test that you apply usually to movies, but really anything
with the narrative. It was first originated in a book
by Alison bechdel Um, and I wanted to briefly mention
that because a couple of fans of ours, Viola and Ti,
(01:26):
mentioned that the test was created by Queer dot Com
Alison bechdel Um, and then it was actually in the
comic strip it's um to lesbians talking about how little
representation there is of lesbians in movies. So I just
wanted to throw that out there that we recognize that,
and because what's happened with the test, it's kind of
been like appropriated by straight people. Yeah, So I just
(01:49):
wanted to call attention to that that it was specifically
the characters in the comic strip are talking about how
they see so little representation of QUERNI ship. Yeah. For
the purposes of our discussion, our version of the Bechdel
test requires that in a piece of media, two women
with names speak about something other than a man for
(02:10):
more than two lines of dialogue. You think it would
be easy, very little bar But if you've heard any
of our episodes before, you'll know that it is challenging
Oh yeah, Angel, some movies cheat what do you mean?
What was the one? And she's all that where they're like,
I think you should kill yourself and then she's like,
that's mean and that passes the Backtel test. But we
(02:34):
will do a better job than that. So let's demo it, Jamie. Okay, Hi, Caitlin,
Hey Jamie, what's up? Um? Nothing, just saying you out
with my gals talking about movies. Oh you know what
this movie made me? You have a new appreciation for
what's that flesh colored shorts? Yeah, there are some male
athletes who look nude. Well now we're yeah, I broke it.
(02:58):
We made we made two lives. But oh boy, those
flesh colored I forgot about the flesh tone shorts and
they really they really came on strong. And this one
we loved it certainly. All right, Well, without much further ado,
let's introduce our guests. We're so excited for our guest today.
She is the creator and host of You Must Remember
(03:19):
This podcast and author of Seduction Sex Lies in Stardom
in Howard Hughes Is Hollywood. It's Karina Longworth. Hi, Hi,
thanks for having me, Thanks for joining. Thank you. We've
been fan girling on the text tune. We're very excited, uh,
and we're excited to talk about this movie in particular.
(03:41):
Today we're discussing Gentlemen Prefer Blonde N three movie musical
comedy directed by Howard Hawks, Jane Russell, Marilyn Monroe. We
I don't think we've covered movies with either of them
in them before. I don't think so. No, so the
big first here on the Bechtel Cast today. It's nicely
like it's the only Marilyn in Rome movie I can
(04:03):
think of off the top of my head that where
she is basically paired against another woman. Yeah right, I'm not.
I've seen some like a Hot and I liked that
movie a lot, or at least I did pre Bectel
Cast to know I have to see it again and
then decide. But um, I haven't seen seven Year Itch,
and I don't really know. I'm not familiar with her
(04:23):
other work really, so I grew up with a Monroe
appreciating uncle who really laid it on thick, most likely
for all the wrong reasons. But I have seen a
lot of a lot of her movies. I hadn't seen
this movie in at least ten years. And I remembered
liking it, but I remember liking all of her movies,
(04:43):
and so I was pleasantly surprised and challenged by this
movie at a number of points where I thought, I,
you know, predicted because of the time it was made,
at what was going to happen, and very often I
was put in my fucking place if it was Karina,
what about you? What's your history your relationship with this movie.
(05:04):
I probably saw it for the first time when I
was a teenager, Um, when I kind of first discovered
Marilyn Monroe and and thought she was interesting. I don't
know how old you guys are, but like I was
a teenager in the nineties, and I like I remember,
pretty early in my awareness of who Marilyn Monroe was,
Elizabeth Hurley made this comment. If you guys heard this,
she basically said something like if I was as fat
(05:25):
as Marilyn Monroe, I would kill myself. Oh my god.
And like I just was just thinking about that today
because like, I mean, you watch this movie and she
does not look fat at all, and like, um, but
in the nineties and sort of waif culture, Um, I
remember watching this movie and thinking both she and Jane
Russell just had these like beautiful womanly bodies that like,
(05:47):
we're not really being represented in popular culture at that time.
And so that was probably like my first moment of
appreciation of the film. And and it's something where I've
seen it so many times now that I almost can't
even really enjoy it as a movie anymore because it's
I just know it so well. But then I was
watching it last night, and there are always things that
(06:07):
I forget about it, like in the diamonds are a
Girl's best friend, the fact that like the women and
the chandeliers are in bondage when I talk about and
and some just like some of the conversations like have
some really interesting aspects to them. There's some lines of
dialogue that I was just like, what did you just say?
But wow, okay, yeah, I had never seen this movie
(06:32):
and I just watched it the other day for the
first time. Well, you know what, I didn't like it,
But I'm not going to let that, you know, really
cloud any judgment in terms of our discussion what didn't
you what didn't you like about it? For we, I
feel like it took forever to get a story going.
(06:52):
I feel like you don't really know Hollywood musicals. Yeah,
I don't know. We can talk about it in the discussion,
but this is just never going to be a movie
that I was gonna enjoy. But but but I'm excited
to talk about it. Okay, So I'll do the recap
of the story. So we meet Lord l Lee that's
(07:14):
Marilyn Monroe's character. And we meet Dorothy Shaw and that's
Jane Russell. They are best friends and they are like
a performing duo who sings and dances. They're singing about Arkansas.
They look great. We love them. Lor Lae is engaged
to a man named Gus Esmond. He's a rich guy
who showers her with gifts, but whose father disapproves of
(07:38):
lor Lae because he thinks that she's like a gold digger, which,
to be fair, she gets with strategy, right, yes, And
lore Lae and Gus are going to travel to France
to get married, and Dorothy is going to go along
on this trip to chaperone at kind of vague reasons. Yeah,
it seems like it's like at the quest of Gus,
(08:01):
but but then he also doesn't seem to wander there
either way. We gotta get why didn't you just go
with him, because he later shows up in France. I
think for business reasons, you can't go on the same boat.
And that's why Dorothea is there because he knows that
left to her own devices, the Marilyn and character will
probably just like hook up with another rich dude. She does,
(08:23):
so Dorothy is supposed to be stopping that. But Dorothy,
you know, is very easily distracted by attractive men. Classic
Olympic team distraction. I yeah, I mean that they enable
each other in fun ways. Oh yes, yeah, and then
get on what's basically the Titanic a lot of Titanic.
(08:46):
It's like this movie is like what if the Titanic
didn't didn't crash but was sexy but was really hot.
So Lorala is on the hunt for a rich man
on the boat um possibly do for Dorothy? Yes, And
Dorothy is chasing after these Olympians because, unlike Lorel, she
(09:07):
cares more that a man is handsome than he is rich,
so or like I would argue like can give her
pleasure or something like that. It's kind of like the
money versus pleasure argument with them. Meanwhile, there's this guy
named Mr. Malone and he is trying to get close
to Lorela and Dorothy, and at first we don't really
know why. There's this all guy named Mr Beakman a k.
(09:30):
Piggy Old Piggy because I got Piggy. Piggy owns a
diamond mine. So Lorela is like trying to cozy up
next to Old Piggy and Piggy's like, yeah, she thinks
I'm hot. Should we know that Piggy is like older
and overweight and it's not attractive. He doesn't hit the
(09:55):
Western standards of beauty that we're used to. He's got
a monocle, though, does and that's kind of hot. It
does kind of look like Mr Monopoly, he truly does.
I guess Mr Monopoly would have also been a philandering, misogynist, right.
So Lorrea Lee sees Piggy's wife's diamond tiara, and she
(10:17):
for freaking loves and she's like, I gotta have that.
So while all that's happening, Dorothy and Mr Malone are
like giving each other the q D eye until she
sees him spying on and taking photos of Loria Lee
while she's with Piggy, which is just like the scene
in the gym in Titanic, right, so then Dorothy is like, oh,
(10:41):
he must be a private eye. That Gus is. I
think Dad higher just what she speculates to keep tabs
on Laura Lee because he's just trying to shut down
these impending nuptials between Loria Lee and Gus. So then
Dorothy she's disappointed that her new crush is a spy.
But and she and Lorela were like, crap, you gotta
(11:03):
get these incriminating photos from him. They're like, let's do
a very difficult, problematic thing to watch in two thousand
and eighteen. Let us drug Mr Malone and strip him
and rob him. Yep, you know we can talk about
it and you can talk about it there. When that
(11:24):
scene started, I was like, oh, oh no, I forgot
about this part. And then it just gets like more
and more and more intense. And then because they're like
gaslighting him, he's like, what's in this drink? And he
was like, oh, it's just vodka and and that we're Lorias.
They turn up the heat, let's roast him, kill him,
Let's do it. Uh. Oh it was crack, and then
(11:49):
never mentioned again. Next day he's he's like, are you
broken up? Like you should honestly break up with Jane Russell.
If that yeah, that's good behavior goes both ways. Baby,
you can't roofy anyone. No, And then, and maybe this
(12:10):
is just me not knowing how boats work, but they
somehow get the photos developed on the boat, as if
there's a dark room on the Titanic. I mean back
in the day when people everybody used to take photos
on film, like you could get photos developed almost anywhere,
so I would believe it, Like I mean, I wasn't
(12:30):
alive in the fifties, but in the eighties, like literally
you get photos developed on any corner, Okay, I did.
I found it a little difficult to suspend my disbelief
for their being a dark room on a ship, but hey,
maybe maybe there was. I don't know, let's go with it.
I also, the picture that is developed is so funny whatever,
(12:51):
like the goat and the snake and the picture right,
they're doing like an act out of like how animals
eat each other, and it's it is incriminating, I suppose. So.
Then so for some reason this is even crazier to me.
Louraa shows the photos to Piggy. She did not need
to do that. She could have just destroyed the film,
(13:13):
but that's not what happens. Instead, she's like, here, here's
what would have incriminated us if these photos got out,
And then Piggy's like, Wow, you're so awesome for showing
me these I'm going to give you a gift about it. Oh,
I think that was her playing a long game. That
was how I interpreted that of like, she'll definitely get
something now, but she also might get something later if
(13:35):
she just doesn't outright blackmail him. They're like, hey, I'm
on your side, and then she'll still have those pictures forever. Okay,
that makes me like her character even less but more Tiara, right.
So then he's like, oh, how about you know, give
you a motorcycle or something. She's like, no, I went
your wife's diamond Tiara now, so he gives it to her.
(13:58):
He like, seems reason so full. Then it's revealed that
Mr Malone was audio recording that conversation, so he still
has incriminating evidence against her, and it's like, bro, if
you have the equipment, just start a podcast. You know,
don't exploit women. Um So then Dorothy's like, hey, Malone,
(14:19):
I like you, but if you try to, you know,
exploit my friend, I'm not gonna like you anymore. So
then they get to Friends and share Board, which is
where Titanic left from, and there's a shopping montage and
then love It, and then we get to the hotel
where Lady Beakman Piggy's why his wife. His wife accuses
(14:41):
Lorlae of stealing the diamond Tiara Um and then the
hotels like, you guys can't stay here because much like
a little scene in a movie called Titanic where someone
except this time she actually did have yeah, but you
know a robbery scene involving a diamond related Robert Yeah,
(15:01):
specifically about diamonds. Yes. And then Malone had told Gus's
dad about the goings on with Laura Lee, so he's like,
the wedding is off. And then here's when things get
really wild where the cops show up to arrest Laura Lee.
So she runs away, and then Dorothy pretending to be
(15:22):
Lorea Lye in like a blonde wig or maybe she
dyed her hair blonde. She goes to court because you know,
when you're arrested, you immediately go to court. Afterwards court,
so that happens, and then Malone shows up and he's
all like he's about to sell out Laura Lee. But
Dorothy's like, hey, I'm Laura Lee, but my friend Dorothy
(15:42):
is in love with you. But if you say anything
bad about her, I won't love you anymore. And he's
like never mind. J K. She blackmails him in public.
He's like okay, It's like okay, And then he figures
out where the tiara is and it gets returned to Piggy,
and then Laura Line and Dorothy, Mary Us and Malone
and kiss and that's the end of the movie. Sure
(16:07):
is I didn't hear anything weirder or or I happened.
So to answer a question, Um, the story that unfolds
is why I don't like this movie. Okay, it's a
stupid story, but oh okay, but I'm willing to hear
everyone's arguments to the contrary. Okay, where do we Where
(16:27):
do we start? Um? I just wanted to note that
the source material, even though the I believe the screenplay
was written by a man, but the source material is
from a screenwriter named Anita Loose who's also a novelist
and was like one of the first I think contract
female screenwriters, or she wrote most of Douglas Fairbanks first movies.
(16:51):
She was one of the biggest screenwriters during the Silent Era,
and then in the nineteen thirties she really helped to
shape Geene Harlowe's persona by writing some of her movie
and then she wrote several memoirs about her time in
Hollywood which are really great. Um, so she's a cool lady.
And she initially wrote Gentlemen Prefer Blondes as a serial
that was published I think in Harper's Bazaar, and it
(17:13):
was inspired by, um, this friend of hers, h. L. Mencken,
who was a New York intellectual who you know, was
a middle aged man, extremely intelligent, and he was just
like completely overwhelmed by his attraction to some little blonde
show girl. And so Nita Lowe's basically wrote this satire
about how somebody who could easily be dismissed as like
(17:36):
a dumb blonde Fluzi was actually incredibly smart and cunning
and was able to intellectually overpower in her own way
like a giant of letters. Yeah, and that happens in
the movie, I think, Yeah, I mean it happens a
bunch of times there. Woman. Be Let's start there with
the how men are portrayed in this movie before we
(17:58):
get to lor Lye and Dorothy Um, yeah, I mean
it's it's definitely like played for comedy a lot. How
men are in this movie are absolutely handicapped immediately by
their own erections and like willing to do almost anything
to even spend time with Loria Lie be anywhere near her.
(18:21):
We see it with Gus, who I don't think we're
led to believe he's an idiot. He's not a brilliant man.
He's no man of letters. No, but he's you know,
he's he's wearing glasses, that's Hollywood go free. He's not dumb,
He's got some stuff going for him, but he you know,
as anytime Loura lie says something needs something, asked for something,
(18:42):
no matter how irrational, he gives it to her. I
don't know. And I mean the same goes for Piggy,
But I I don't know. I mean, this is seems
like a very dated foreman. I feel like almost plays
into I was thinking about when we watched Teeth Caitlin
and how you know women are sometimes portrayed as these
(19:02):
cunning creatures that want to take things from you and
need to sort of be neutered, uh in order and domesticated,
and you see kind of shades of that, but Loyaliz's
character always wins and always gets what she wants, and
so it feels like those sorts of stories are being
commented on sort of where she is genuinely very manipulative
(19:27):
and cunning, which women are commonly accused of being, but
she also gets what she wants and isn't in the end,
isn't punished for wanting those things, which seems like a victory, right,
I guess what bothers me about it? Like there's a
scene at the very end whenever she finally is face
to face with Gus's father, who has long disapproved of
(19:50):
her and the idea of her, and you see him
start to warm up to her because she's pretty, and
who says the lines and like, hey, I thought you
were supposed to be stupid it, but you're not. And
I'm confused. Now She's like, guys, just give me three
minutes alone with your father and then everything would be
fine in her breathy voice. But then it cuts immediately
(20:13):
to their wedding, so we don't even get to see like,
and we do see other scenes where she's like, you know,
cunning and coy with her sort of like manipulation. But
I feel like there was an opportunity to like, see, okay,
let's let's see her be smart and do something. Well,
that speech she gives at the end I thought was
like pretty effective in demonstrating that point where essentially when
(20:35):
she is confronted with the father and he's like, hey,
you're as hot as they say, anyways, you can't marry
my son, and she has what I thought was like
a really cool, interesting speech about what is it if
a girl is pretty, that's not the reason you marry her,
but it certainly helps, which is you know, we can
(20:56):
unpack that statement all day, but she is like demonstrating
that she understands what she's doing. She's not ashamed of it,
and she doesn't think she has to be. And I
don't know, well, she's contrasting basically, the father is accusing
her of the only one in to marry her son
for his money, and she's like, look, she's contrasting being
beautiful as being a value in a woman to being
(21:17):
rich and a value in a man. And she's talking
about this double standard, and I think as aggressive of
language as an actress like Marilyn Monroe could in a
movie of nine three sure for sure. Yeah, and then
and then then the scene before when she says to
us something you came to like, Well, I didn't become
this way because I wanted to like. The way society
(21:39):
is set up made me this way, right, which I
think is like basically the thesis of that character, which
is that she understands that the world is set up
to exploit her, and so she's all of her behavior
is kind of a defense mechanism, like she's beating people
to the punch by exploiting them. And you can argue
as to whether or not that's good feminism, but I
(22:00):
think for the time it was a certain kind of progressive. Yeah,
that's true, and seems to have a level of practicality
to it, where I mean, I I don't know. We
I would argue that, you know, they're they're sort of
representing two different kinds of feminism, where Marilyn Monroe's character
is more of a survival based understands that society values
(22:23):
her until she's a certain age or until she looks
a certain way, and then she's on her own. So
she's like kind of stockpiling now, so she'll be set
later because we have to assume there will be limited
opportunities for her as she gets older. So in some
ways that like level of self preservation and just good
(22:44):
old fashioned redistributing the wealth. That certainly, I guess it
just bugs me a little bit that a large part
of what she does to sort of exploit people, or
so she's using largely her looks and kind of like
feminine wiles to get what she wants, and because women
(23:06):
have historically been valued only for their looks, I find
that a bit troubling. But also maybe the fact that
she's using that very idea and using it to get
what she wants is good. I don't know. I just
you know, what I mean is to look at it.
I mean, I think in the context of the time
(23:28):
this is being made, her options are limited, sure, just
by what society will allow women to do. And of
course there's like always outliers there, and we could argue
that loyal I should go to college and get a
doctorate and become a scientist and now become a woman
(23:48):
in stem Yes, queen go off and you know, really
defeat the patriarchy single handedly. But given I don't know.
I I understand, and I feel like that the movie
goes out of its way more than an average movie
of this time to get across to you that she
is trying to survive the only way she knows how
(24:11):
um with I mean, with the support of a man.
But also I don't I don't know. I I ended
up liking moralized character a lot more than I thought
that I would, And and Dorothy's as well. They I mean,
they're both symbols from the survival, but only because she's
like on st are they're going to do to pay
the bills. When she turns, she's the one who's gone
(24:34):
and become a woman in stem she's gonna be like, Okay,
I've had all the sex. I'm going back to school there.
But he had a similar discussion on the Breakfast at
Tiphanies episode another movie that I simply do not like.
But I understand that because women have had to kind
(24:55):
of use unconventional ways to get things, uh you know,
hapital or opportunities and things like that because they've not
been afforded to us historically. That is something I appreciate
and like to see stories about. But I guess when
it's like, Hey, I'm a beautiful woman, and let me
exploit that to get the things I want. Like, I
(25:16):
don't know, I guess it's just because great that that's
available to you. But what about all the women who aren't,
you know, conventionally attractive by Western beauty standards. Like what,
It's a very individual approach, sure, for sure. Um, Hey,
let's take a quick break and then we'll come right
back for more. Okay, and we're back. So, Karina, this
(25:41):
is like your old Hollywood this is your expertise. So
what are you? What are your thin? Well? I mean,
I I enjoy the movie more than you do. Um.
I think that it's fair to say that the storyline
is thin and silly, but that's part of of just
being a musical comedy of nineteen fifty three. I also
(26:04):
think that this movie kind of critiques previous musical comedies
in various ways. I mean, and that was typical of
musical Hollywood musicals of the nineteen fifties, is that they
had a meta quality to them. Singing in the Rain
would be another example of that, where they're sort of
quoting previous musicals and making them a little bit more ridiculous.
While at the same time also blowing you away by
(26:24):
certain technical things like choreography and costuming. But I mean,
I've read about this in my new book Seduction, Sex
Lies and started in hollywoodward Hollywood because of Jane Russell,
who was the second of two actresses who Howard Hughes
basically discovered and turned into major stars. And basically previous
to this movie, Jane Russell was most known for being
(26:45):
and Howard Who's is the Outlaw, but really most known
for being in the publicity surrounding Howard hugh'ses the Outlaw,
which was entirely built around exploiting her breasts and showing
as much of them as Hughes could get away with
at the time, and at the time, like right after
this movie came out, Hughes was sued by some of
the shareholders in the studio he owned, r KO, and
(27:07):
the main focus of their complaint was that they thought
that Jane Russell was a waste of money and that
she wasn't a good actress, wasn't a good star, and
that he had squandered the shareholders money building her up.
But the timing of their lawsuit was really unfortunate because
it came to court right after A Gentleman Prefer Blonde
came out and had been a massive hit, one of
the top ten highest grossing movies of the year. It
(27:29):
was the biggest blockbuster of the summer, and it turned
her into a star almost as big as Marion le Monroe.
So that lawsuit didn't go very well for the shareholders. Um.
But one of the things that I do find really
interesting about this film is the fact that she had
been absolutely the target of like the most withering male gaze.
I mean. Also, the other thing about the Outlaw is
(27:50):
that a lot of it is built around a rape scene,
and a lot of the publicity around it featured like
a cartoon of the rape scene. So this is all
detail in my book as well. But so she went
from that to playing this role of Dorothy and Gentlemen
Prefer Blonde, where it's all about her gaze, it's all
about her objectifying men. Her costumes are comparatively really covered
(28:12):
up compared to what she had worn previously, especially this
scene where she is like singing about her sexual desire
for these Olympic dancers, like they are wearing tshtone shorts
that make them look naked. And she is wearing a
high necked, comparatively high necked black jumpsuit. You can't really
see her cleavage, which was what she was known for
(28:33):
at the time. And she's not it's not a thing
where she's singing about I want these men to want me.
She's singing about how she wants them right. So I
think all of that is really interesting. I mean, I
love Jane Russell, and a lot of the reason why
I love Jane Russell is because of this movie. Yeah,
I really liked her character a lot. Um. I would
say I prefer hers w Brunette there Ca, prefer new
(29:00):
movie coming out, new what men um. That scene was
so interesting and having that context for it is so
helpful because I assumed that that scene was just commentary
on other musicals, like what you were saying, where you know,
you're going through the screen full of women in various
bathing suits and treating them is set dressing and and
(29:23):
all that that happens all the time, even now. But
that scene was so fun and it seemed to communicate
it like it knew exactly what it was doing. Jane
Russell's great in it. She's so funny and all the
all the Olympian men were just vacant. They're all none
of them. They were just flexing. They just bodies. They're
(29:45):
just exactly like they weren't even allowed to in the
way that some scenes like that would like the women
turns to the guy who's singing and goes like, oh,
but like they didn't even they were just there. They
were automaton, flesh toned muscle boys. Yeah, yeah, for sure,
it was great. But I would say that while both
(30:05):
of these characters, both Lorlie and Dorothy, the story boils
down to basically a friendship between two women and the
things that they want and how they try to get them,
but they're also framed pretty much entirely by the men
that they're attracted to, Like what type of man they're
going for. That's how like their personalities are defined to us,
(30:27):
or like like she goes for this kind of guy,
so she's this girl. And Dorothy goes for glasses spy,
and so she she's this girl. Right, So using that
as a way to like characterize women is you know,
not the best way to do it, but we still yeah,
I mean, because I mean they're two very distinguishable women.
(30:48):
But there, I would say pretty still archetypal, where it's
like Loreali is the like blonde, dizzy, airheaded, doesn't know
what a tr is, right, doesn't understand where Frances this
kind of thing, although that exchange does past the Bactel test. Yeah,
I mean a place to even the stereotypes of blondes
and brunettes in some ways, although I guess, I mean,
(31:12):
I don't know. I guess I'd have to revisit the
old Trope book because I don't know that brunettes would
be portrayed as like seeking constant sexual stimulation and pleasure. Right,
I guess she's framed as because she's not blonde, she's
just like different from that like archetypal, like ditzy blonde type. So,
and because she's not blonde, that means she's smart instead
(31:35):
of airhead. And she's sarcastic. And that's basically what we
know about Dorothy. I kind of wanted, well, I wanted
to talk about the title of the movie Gentlemen Prefer Blondes,
because one, it reduces women to their hair color, which
means it's objectifying women's all of Marilyn's career, and this
is something that happens within this movie and in countless
(31:57):
other ones. So that's you know, not read uh. And
it perpetuates the idea that like the blonde bombshell is
the ideal standard of beauty for women, which has long
been perpetuated by the media and movies like this one.
I I mean, as it pertains to Dorothy's character, I
(32:17):
like her a lot. I liked her relationship with Malone felt,
you know, more authentic than a lot of relationships. I
think they've got banter. She you know, she starts out
by kind of calling him out. Where in that first
interaction they have at the table, he is lying to her,
but he's saying like, oh, I'm rich and I've got
(32:39):
all this stuff, and she's like, you know, funk off,
that's not what I'm interested in. Leave me alone. And
and I found that, besides the fact that you know,
she roufies him, he lize to her, those two things aside.
I found the relationship to be very pleasant or more
you know. And again it's like we have to contextualize
everything with a movie like this, And for for this time,
(33:02):
I thought it was a kind of a sweet relationship,
and you know, to the end, it could have been
very easy for him to, you know, do his job
and not do what she told him to to save
the relationship. But he does. He values her above spying
on Marilyn Monroe. I would argue that he she is
(33:23):
very forgiving of his not that great behavior. I do
she rufies him, though that's true, No one really comes
out of yeah to quote some like it hot. On
one hand, there is that classic like guy initiating a
relationship under false under a false identity thing, but then
(33:44):
she rufies him, so is it a lot? But she
has to tell him, like so often what she I
don't I don't know why I'm about to try to
defend a rufie scene. But she only does that because
he's sneaking around spying on her friend. To me, this
whole storyline plays out where she has to keep being like,
(34:04):
you keep trying to funk with my friend, and I
like my friends, so you better not do that. But
if you don't do it, even if that's where your intentioned,
or I'm gonna you know, well she bailed on him
when he didn't that immediately takes him back another Well,
we don't know how much time passes necessarily, but they're
not to like come to the extreme defense of this movie.
(34:27):
But I I feel that might be a little bit
reductive of how that relationship works, because Dorothy does tell
Malone to go frick himself if you will, when it
comes down to he's going to keep sabotaging her friendship,
which for both of them seems like the most important
thing to them. Where there's even that scene where Dorothy
(34:48):
and Malone there on the deck, it's all very tightan
you know, and Malone makes a jab at Lorala, and
Dorothy immediately is like, I can talk about her that way.
You don't know her, you can't talk about her. She's
actually very smart, and don't do that, and and you know,
clearly defines the boundaries of you know, Loreline Dorothy are
(35:11):
critical of each other, but they respect each other and
care about each other and want the best, even though
in Loyaliz's case, she kind of wants her version of
the best. Dorothy, Yeah, I suppose, how do you I
don't know, what do you make of that friendship? I
actually think that it's um it's really positive, especially for
the time period. I mean, there are just not a
(35:32):
lot of movies where you have two female stars who
were treated by the movie as equals. You know, I
can name a few others, but like, I think that
for that time period, it was really really unusual, and
I do think that it is more central to the
movie than any of the male female relationships. And also,
like I guess I just wanna one thing I don't
(35:54):
think we've like stated in these words so much is
that I don't think that what Laurel I is ultimately
going after is rich men. I think she's going after diamonds.
Like her real love affair is with diamonds, and it's
with this idea of accumulating wealth, and this is her
way of doing it. Like there's a whole song about it,
and diamonds are a girl's best friend, and I think
(36:15):
like the staging of that song really plays up the
idea that like, because she accumulates wealth, she's free, whereas
these women behind her are like dressed in black and
are like literally tied up. And so I mean it's
you know, obviously it's skewed, and it's also satire, but
I actually just think that, like so many of the
(36:36):
messages in this film are positive. Yeah, I liked this
the way this movie plays the friendship. I was like
so surprised by it every turn because you and even
in movies now occasionally you'll see a friendship break because
you know that the husband wanted this or the boyfriend
wanted this, and you know, women can have friends, but
(36:58):
at the end of the day, the romantic relationship is
going to take precedence and could break off. But they
make it so clear that that is never going to
be the case. And it's also just nice or something
that I don't think you see very much to see
two women who view the same thing. I don't know,
a victory and bipartisanship is Laura Lee and Dorothy's friendship
(37:22):
because they they view life in a fundamentally different way,
but they appreciate each other. They don't let it ruin
their friendship, even though they're constantly like debating is money
or fucking more important? Which jury is still out We
don't know, uh, but I don't know. I I appreciated
how they that could have so easily been played into
(37:43):
like constant like cat fight e stuff. Definitely, but they
had like actual conversations about it. And you know, when
Loria I would try to push her viewpoint on Dorothy,
Dorothy be like no, I'm going to, you know, frick
the Olympic team, see you lay her because when she
does try to do that, she accidentally sents Dorothy up
with a child who who I'm pretty sure is like
(38:08):
a creep in the making, because he has a few
lines where he's like, oh, I appreciate a good looking women,
and then he's like, I'll help you because you've got
a lot of animal magnetism. Marilyn Monroe accidentally Winnie the
Poos herself she gets stuck in a port hole. I
was like, I can't believe they're they're Winnie the poohing
(38:29):
her or I don't know which came first. Either way,
she's a honeypot Winnie the Pooing and she needs a
little Christopher Robin to yank her out that was dying
at the scene. Yeah, that was really what a treat.
Uh Yeah, I mean that really the only thing with
that friendship were the main thing with the movie that
(38:51):
I felt like wasn't really commentary and was sort of
just playing to like, and this is how a movie ends,
is the double wedding end. There was like the only
major thing that happens in this movie that I was
not like that's kind of sure. I guess I guess
that that's how movies end at this time. But even
(39:11):
that is like, is putting the friendship above either of
these relationships, because like, neither woman is um is saying like,
you can't be part of my wedding day. We want
to do this together. You know, neither neither one is
like it's like I'm the star here, it's my day.
It's more like it's our day, right, that's true, And
they're yeah, they married each other. I mean, maybe that's
(39:35):
what the movie is saying that they're really doing. Maybe
just coded. Yeah, oh I like that. I guess for me,
it boils down to and this is maybe just simply
a preference thing, But because I agree that the friendship
between them is represented in a by and large positive
way where they're constantly defending each other, but they're also
(39:55):
challenging each other but in healthy ways, and they general
really are trying to help and support each other. What
I don't like is that the things that they're trying
to do or to get are framed entirely around men.
What I prefer, I guess, in like a female friendship
story is something like Thelman Louise, where you know, you
(40:18):
got to supportive friends and the men have fucked them over,
so they're just going to go and shoot up a
bunch of you know, convenience stores instead. Sure, that's just
my preference, my Caitlin prefers. I mean, I think I'm
sure that there's a way you could sort of show
(40:39):
a movie like Gentlemen Prefer Blondes as paving the way
for other movies that to exist. Of just you know,
if there were no movies portraying two women and uh,
you know, Ride or Die friendship, I think that you
know those movies really quick before we wrap up the discussion,
I wanted to give a quick shot out to Lady Beekman.
(41:02):
Lady Beakman, I you know you feel for her because
even there there's some commentary of Piggy is this hornial
dumbass with a lot of diamonds who is actively philandery
on his wife who we meet, who is originally very
nice to Dorothy and to Lorelai and then later comes
(41:23):
back for the Tierra, which I applied her for. Um.
I just wanted to give a quick shout out to
Lady Beekman, who did nothing to anyone no, Yeah, she
just has a creepy old husband. Just let her live. Yeah.
A couple of lines of dialogue that I wrote down
that I Dorothy says, I like a man who can
(41:45):
run faster than I can, which sounds terrifying. No, I
want a very slow man. Um personally, Caitlin prefers Sloman.
I forget which one of them says this. I think
it might be Dorothy. But someone says, if we can't
empty his pockets between us, we're not worthy of the
(42:07):
name woman. But that's like about the person they're roofing. Yes,
it is fair if like two women can't like I've
passed out manet and they do so, they don't think
that's exactly what they keep the name women. Um Gus
says about Lorla, I'm going to make her marry me. Yeah,
(42:30):
that was not and love and and there was one
little grabby from Malone from Malone that was like, oh yeah.
He says to Dorothy, I'm not wrong about you, and
you're gonna listen to me, and says this while he's
angrily grabbing her arm and turning him, turning her toward him.
It's so hard to know. I think they're just playing
(42:51):
a complicated game of dominance and submission. Actually, it's fine.
We just didn't see the whole contract, seeing like in
the sensors cut that out there. Um a quick fun
thing that I found on IMDb And maybe Karina you
know about this. But a couple of years after Gentlemen
(43:13):
Prefer Blonde, Jane Russell was in another movie called Gentleman
Mary Brunettes. But it doesn't seem to be a sequel
or any type of In no way is it related.
She doesn't play the same character. Like Weirdly, Anita Loris
did write a sequel to Gentlemen Prefer Blondes called Gentleman
Mary Brunette's. But then when it came time to make
(43:33):
this movie. I think her niece actually wrote the movie
Mary Anita Loose, but they just like throughout the original
story because they couldn't get Marilyn Monroe. Um, so they
just did something else. I haven't seen that film. Okay, interesting,
we gotta take a quick break, but we'll come right back. Okay, Hey,
(43:56):
let's talk about it. Whether or not this movie passes
the Bechdel test, right, it's interesting. I was reading a
lot of criticism of this movie after watching it and
getting all my own thoughts, you know, shouted out, etcetera.
A lot of critics say this movie does not pass
the Backtel test, and they must be, I think, using
a different version than we are, perhaps, yeah, because there
are certain caveats and variations on on the test. But again,
(44:19):
for our sake, it's just a at least two lines
between female identifying characters who are not talking about men.
Using that standard, I would say the movie does. Yeah.
A bunch of times. Well, I would say, if I
only found a couple, I think hit me, Okay, here's
here we go. Dorothy says, not Europe France, frances in Europe.
(44:42):
Lore Lie says, who says it wasn't. Dorothy says, well,
you wouldn't say like, oh, where's North America Mexico? Would you?
And she's like, well, that's where I wanted to go?
I would that passes silly. It's there's a lot of
the passes I came up with. It's it's tricky because
the subtext of what they're talking about very almost nearly
(45:04):
all the time is marriage and men. And because that's
the central debate of these characters is how do they
view this? Um so I mean, there are some I
got like six or seven passes of like on the page.
They're not technical about men technically, but the subtext of
the whole movie it's hard. Yeah, they might not mention
a man's name in the conversation, but I would say
(45:25):
almost every single conversation they have is either about a
specific man or they're talking about the concept of loving
men or finding a man. Passes a few times in
theory when they're in the process of roof being malone,
they're talking about stealing picks. They're talking about turning up
the heat but from a man, and to make a
man uncomfortable. So I mean it's it's I mean, the
(45:45):
very and as we always say, it's a flawed metric perfect.
The whole thing this movie is trying to comment on
is like how women perceive marriage and men and how
like how to survive and get and live a fulfilling
life at this time. So it's kind of I mean,
it's a tricky movie to pass, sure, Yeah, for sure,
(46:07):
although Lady Beikman and Laura I talk about diamonds. Sure,
but yeah, almost every conversation between women is about men,
either in subtext or context or like explicitly, but does
pass our standards go movie. One quick thing that I
wanted to mention is there's a moment where whenever Gus's
(46:29):
father is like, hey, they told me you were stupid,
and Laura Lie says, I can be smart when it's important,
but most men don't like it. Which there are a
couple of lines like that that I do appreciate where
she kind of like challenges the status quo or she
points out a double standard. I would have liked that
to happen more. But again, thinking about the movie being three,
(46:49):
and yeah, this is paving the way for more progressive
texts to come down the pipeline. But um, yeah I didn't.
I think I came down too hard on Laura Lie. Um,
but that's just because I'm a brunette and women are
defined by their hair color. And then can God, yeah,
I just I wanted I thought that was that was cool.
And the there's a line where she's talking to Gusts
(47:12):
and she says, and we touch on this briefly, but
I don't wanted to read the quote. It's men like
you who have made me the way I am, and
if you love me at all, you'd feel sorry for
the terrible troubles I've been through instead of holding them
against me. So yeah, those are those are moments. I
appreciate it great. I feel like that. Yeah, all this
entire you know, reaches its logical conclusion by the end
(47:34):
of the movie. And I don't know, I thought this
movie held held up pretty damn well given that it's
over what sixty sixty five years old, um, and a
lot of that, I mean, all the typical um prejudices
and issues of the era are on full display, where
(47:54):
I mean, unfortunately goes without saying that this is an
entirely white movie. This is an entirely straight movie. This
is you know, all that is fully what it is,
uh in nineteen fifty three. But given the time, I
was very impressed with this movie, and I would watch
it again. Well, let's rate it, speaking of you know,
how we fail about it zero to five nipples based
(48:17):
on its portrayal and representation of women. I am going
to give it, I would say like a two. And
maybe it's because I don't really like this movie that
maybe I did let it cloud my judgment. But while
I do appreciate the female friendship and how it probably
(48:40):
did pave the way for more progressive movies about female
friendship to be made. I think that because the goals
of the women are defined entirely by and framed entirely
around the type of men that they're after. I think also,
this movie was funded by the dime industry, Like is
(49:02):
that true? Probably not, but but like what it's okay,
it was funded by twenties century Fox. But it it
does like actually promote the names of several diamond Tiffany. Yeah,
so I just Kalen didn't like the movie. I didn't
like the movie. I do appreciate a few of the
(49:24):
things that does it. You know, it does challenge different
gender specific double standards. It does show a positive female friendship.
I don't know the fact that the only thing we
really know about them is the type of men that
they want, and the only thing we see them do
is things to either land a man or in some
cases several different men. If you're talking about Laura La,
(49:46):
which is fine, Hey, if you want to fuck a
bunch of people, do it. Also, Gus is like really
possessive of her and like jealous, and he's like you
need a shap around because I don't trust you, because
you're a woman who's hot, and so you're probably gonna
up to be fair, he cannot trust her, true, Maybe
he's not like stereotyping her. Maybe he's just like seeing
(50:08):
her flirt with other which that's based on and there
is that rufi scene. But also why would you send
like to chaperone someone like, you know, who's really going
to hold her accountable, her best friend in the world.
It was also like DTF, like crazy, It was like
the morning, let me about the horniest person she does.
(50:31):
This is gonna work out great. So yeah, I'm gonna
I'm gonna probably this is probably too low, but I'm
sticking with the two nipples, and I'm going to give
one to eat of mc gal's, one to Marilyn Monroe
and one to Jane Russell. Cool. Well, I guess I
I don't know what a five would be, and I
but I'm going to say four. Yeah, cool, I think
(50:52):
I'm gonna split the diff do with three, maybe three
and a half. I think that it's something we didn't
really karany you spoke to a few times. Was even
the way this movie is framed is a little bit
different and not how we're used to seeing. I mean, certainly,
Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell are fully made up and
gorgeous this whole movie. The costumes are incredible, But the
(51:15):
male gaze. I feel like this movie is aware of
the male gaze and subverts it several times in a
way that is like really effective and interesting and definitely
not typical of the time. The whole ain't there anyone
here for love? Scene that was like so cool and
um exciting and hopefully cathartic for Jane Russell, Um, who
(51:37):
is you know, for once not the center of you know,
she's controlling the camera and where the camera goes instead
of being pursued by it. And lor and Dorothy are
the only ones who kind of break the fourth wall
in the musical scenes, and it just I don't know,
they felt fully in control of the movie and generally
(51:57):
the story, and we're equipped to solve the problem is
that they were sent to although of course you're you're
totally right that they're sort of defined by their views
of men in the world. Um, so I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna do three and a half and I'll give
two to Jane one in Maryland and half to Lady Beekman. Yeah,
(52:19):
she earned it. She worked hard. I'm getting I don't
know anything about it. Well, Corna, thank you so much
for being here, Thanks for having so much fun. Plug
whatever you want. Well. My book in which I read
about this film and others made by Jane Russell Seduction, sex,
Lies and Stardom in Howard Hughes's Hollywood. It will be
in your local bookstore. It's great. I can't wait to
(52:42):
read it. Where can people fall you online? And oh
I'm on Twitter at Karina Longworth and you can find
my podcast. You must remember this on iTunes. Yeah, people
listen to it. It's so good, three years of listening strong.
Thank you. You can follow us on social media at
(53:02):
Bechtel Cast. You can go to our patreonic a Matreon
and that's five dollars a month and we have to
bonus episodes for you every single month. What a gift,
What a treat O. Yes, um, yes, you can go
to our merch store t public dot com slash the
Bechtel Cast and you've got you know your favorites, feminist icon,
(53:25):
queer icon, feminist icon, Alfred Molina, all the designs you
could ever want, the stuff, So check that out and
what hey, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening,
to see you later by
The Bechdel Cast News
Hosts And Creators
Caitlin Durante
Jamie Loftus
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