Guardians of the Galaxy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On The Bechdelcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism? The patriarchy zephynvest start changing with the Bechdelcast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hello, listeners, guess what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
We're well, we're doing two things. I just panicked. First
of all, we're unlocking a Matreon episode, which we are
wont to do not very often because we love to
give you piping hot content. However, yes, we are releasing.
We are unlocking this Matreon episode this week because it
goes a bit on a theme, a theme that is connected.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
To our upcoming tour.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Perhaps.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, that's so true, Jamie, because.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Tell the people Klin.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
So we're unlocking this Matreon aka Patreon the episode on
Guardians of the Galaxy because we did a themed month
the This was two years ago now it's been a
little while, but the theme was Zoe Saldana in Space
where we covered Star Trek two thousand and nine and

(01:11):
Guardians of the Galaxy.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
It's very true.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
And speaking of space, you know what other movies take
place in space?

Speaker 4 (01:19):
Dunna famously Star Wars, Star War, and not just any
there's many eras of Star Wars.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
We chose the I think the most complicated era of
Star Wars, the prequels, an era that a lot of
people hated when it came out, and then I feel
like there's a lot of nostalgia for it now for
kids that grew up with it. So we will be
on our Midwest tour giving the definitive intersectional feminist perspective

(01:53):
on this Star Wars prequels. There's been a lot of
talk about these things, but somehow hasn't been an intersectional
feminist talk. So please, if you are in the area,
we will will let you know where to go. But
you know, a Bechdel Cast live show is a blast.
We do some discourse. We're gonna be talking Pat May,
We're gonna be talking hmm, anyone else. George ran charge R.

(02:19):
They has a very very complicated figure in Star Wars history.
And we're also gonna be doing silly stuff. We do
our own presentations. They'll be fan fic, they'll be exclusive merch.
We're gonna try to lightsaber battle each other. It's gonna
be fun. So please do come out for that, and
here's where you can go. You We will first be

(02:43):
on August thirtieth. We will be live in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Have a heard of it. That's an afternoon show at
the Fountain Square Theater.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
As a part of Let's Fest. And also a part
of Let's Fest, Jamie, do you have a little something I.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Do and I really need to sell tic? Thank you
for bringing that up. I will be doing an hour
of stand up called Jamie Laftas and her Pet Rock
Solve the World's Problems. And that'll be later that very day,
on August thirtieth. So if you're already going to the
Bexel Cash Show, then hang out for the day. There's
so many great comics performing at the festival and I'll

(03:19):
be performing towards the end of the night and it'll
be a blast. Please please come through. It'll be a blast.
It'll be a blaster.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Wow pew pew.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, that's right. I've been researching.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Wow amazing. So following the Indianapolis show is a show
in Chicago on August thirty first at the Den Theater.
That's a sexy evening show.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Next week are going to be zooming over in an
X swing.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Question mark at hyper speed or do they do light speed?
In Star Wars. I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Look, go, we know what we're talking about. We get it,
we get We'll figure it out. Next week, there will
be in Madison, Wisconsin on September fourth. That is going
to be at the Burr Oak Theater. Do come out,
Wisconsin heads, bring your Kurds exactly.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
And finally we will be in Minneapolis on September seventh
at the Dudley Riggs Theater. And this is just a
separate thing, but I'm going to go to the Mall
of America for the first time. I'm gonna go for
the second look at God.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
So if you have any recommendations, just you know, Minneapolis,
I'm pissed at your American Girl law store close, but
I'll still roll through. We're so excited. If you have
been thinking about going to a beche little cash show
and you never have. We've never been to the Midwest before,
and the only way that we'll ever come back is
if people come to the shows. So not to threaten you,

(04:50):
that's just how the.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Business words, just how these things work. So please please
please come out. You can grab tickets on our link
tree to all of the these shows. That's link treat
Slash Bechdel Cast. We'd love to see you there. We
always do little meet and greets after the shows and
we sell merch, so come say hi to us, take

(05:12):
a picture.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
And if you are a matron of the show, we
do have exclusive buttons for our matrons, so you get
a special little treat. Come and hang. We would really
love to see you. And if you want a little
taste of what the Bechdel Cast in Space is like,
well it might sound a little something like this. Here
is our episode on Guardians of the Galaxy from the

(05:35):
director that brought you, Scooby Doo, the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Anyway, Hello, matrons, and welcome to the second installment of
Zoe Zaldana in Space. September. Weare covering Guardians of the
Galaxy Volume one from twenty fourteen. Although I did a
lot of extra credit.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
You've done a lot of extra credit this month in general. Yeah,
it's true.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
I've I watched two different trilogies, and for this episode
I watched so I watched all three volumes of Guardians
of the Galaxy plus parts of Avengers Infinity War and
Adventures Endgame, not the whole movie for either movie, because
that would be one hundred million hours of I yeah, work,

(06:21):
but I skipped through and just watched all of the
parts of those movies that had the Guardians characters in them, Okay,
just to have more context, because there's a significant kind
of like narrative gap between Volume two and three that
is filled in by those Avengers movies. So I went
I was like, right as I was watching the trilogy,

(06:43):
I was like, oh, there's stuff that happens in the
Avengers that I forgot about. So I went back and
watched those parts.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
I watched the movie Recovering and that was all, And
that's fine. I feel it's interesting. I do think that, like, yeah,
there's like certain genres where I'll go above and beyond.
There's certain genres where you'll go above and beyond Star Trek.
We were evenly matched, true, had different areas of expertise Guardians.
I think that. I mean, if anyone's listened to our

(07:11):
past Marvel episodes, I just you know, if you love
the movies, that is wonderful. I don't want it to
be my personality to dislike anything, but I just find
them really challenging to keep up with. I feel, yeah,
I mean, they're the most popular movies in the history

(07:32):
of the world, so clearly a lot of people feel differently,
but I just yeah, there was a number of parts
of this movie where there are sentences where I'm like,
oh my god, what like and then I have to
google the sentence and then I read a sentence and
the thing that's supposed to be explaining the sentence to
me that is like, well, I don't know what that means.

(07:53):
I know enough, and I think that it speaks to
the strength of this movie. That and I think most
of the Marvel movies that I enjoy, because there's there
are Marvel movies I enjoy. I'm not a completionist. The
Avengers movies in particular, I find to be such a
slog There's too many characters. There's Orbs, Tessa Raks stones,

(08:15):
often one thing is containing the other thing, and at
some point I'm just like, oh my god, like we
got to pick a term, we gotta pick a term. Yeah,
because I can't keep up. And so I apologize in
advance for uh, if there are Marvel enthusiasts listening and Kitlyn,
I will I will need your help because I feel

(08:38):
like I'm here for you. Baby. I've watched Guardians of
the Galaxy Volume one twice. I've seen many Marvel movies.
I recognized terms, I recognized character, I know who Thanos is.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I made the mistake of watching this with a boyfriend,
and they know all the words. I feel like there's
been three different boyfriends I've watched these movies, but throughout
the course of this podcast series, and they and they
all know all the words. No matter how different they are,
they all know all the words that are going on.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Boy love Marvel.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
It was so it was truly shocking because like this,
my boyfriend is not someone I would think would know
all the words. But I said, like glove, and he
was like, it's not a glove. I was like, the infinity.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
What's it called, because it's oh, what do they call it?
It's not a It's sort of like gauntlet, but not
is it?

Speaker 1 (09:35):
He might have said, he might have corrected me to Gauntlet,
and I was like, whoa.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Whoa wa, maybe you I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
And then I was like, then I was like, you
need to leave.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
It's it's Stanos's little mitten and that's the name of it.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
It's a glove. It's a really like bulky glove. That
he's putting the rocks in and then he kills everyone.
But then also not there's no consequences in this world.
That's the other thing about Marvel that like why am
I bitch get the very big but like theyre like
with with Marvel movies, I find that like there's no
real and like later Star Wars movies, there's no real consequence.

(10:10):
No one ever dies because there's a multiverse. Groot dies
and then you're like, wait a second. Because I live
in the future, I know that there's always Groot and
then it grows a baby, and then it's like, oh,
they're just trying to sell toys. That death was for nothing.
It was like Chewbacca in Star Wars nine. I do
just like, but what does it mean?

Speaker 3 (10:30):
I find the MCU and I generally like it, although
I'm not I wouldn't call myself an enthusiast because for
most of the MCU movies, I've seen each of them
only one time. There's a handful that I've seen multiple times.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
But you do keep up.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
I do keep up. I see all of them usually
in theaters, so I am a little bit more proactive,
but I'm not like, oh my god, I have to
watch all of them in the chronological order. Yeah, theatrical
and blah blah blah. Like I'm not I'm not like
that enthusiastic about it.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
I guess just like a warning for because I just
I always get nervous going into big franchises where it's like,
we're not experts on this franchise. If fearless, I mean,
you're you're matrons. Also, we're not in the main feed,
so I can like let my guard down a little.
You can let your like guardy, you can I can
let my guardian down a little and just say, you know,

(11:26):
if you're a matron of this show, you know that
we are not experts on the MCU, or we would
maybe have mentioned it. I feel like I see one
Marvel movie a year, and there's like seven, so it's
like there's no way to keep.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
The money now, and and I find that frustrating. And
the other thing I was about to say that I
find frustrating is that the Steaks do feel I mean,
they establish stakes, but I feel like you don't ever
actually feel them, because they're like these characters are throwing
each other around so violently, and it's like that I
would kill even a superhero. That seems like that would

(12:03):
kill a superhero, and they don't.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
They never die.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
I never feel the actual stakes or I rarely do.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, the stakes feel low, Yeah physically, which I didn't
even really think about, but I feel, yeah, the stakes
feel low, and it feels like there's a lot of
and I know that that to some extent, this exists
within comic book franchises, So I don't mean that like,
but it is frustrating as a moviegoer to be like,
I don't know, like at some point, and again, I
have seen not even half of the Marvel movies, but

(12:32):
it's like in the movies where a character dies, it
I feel like actually counts or sticks less than half
the time. And so you're like, why would I emotionally
get invested in this series if nothing matters. I didn't,
But I mean that's I don't know. I saw I
saw the last of what was the Last Avengers and

(12:54):
the Big One, yep, the Big One. I saw that
one in theaters. It was a good communal movie theater
experience because you know, it's like everyone's really into it,
everyone's really excited. I saw WandaVision. I saw Oh last
year I tried the New Doctor Strange and I just
I couldn't. It was so bad. It sucks.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
Mistake. And that's not even the worst one that's come
out recently, because ant Man three.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Was that was the one. That's the one I saw
this year, and unfortunately I really can just see one.
So I sat out Guardians three and the Marvels because
I just I can only sit up for and so
I blew my wad early in the year. So and
at this point, I don't even know if people are
watching them anymore. I don't know. It seems like they're whatever.

(13:45):
There's goett. I guess back on topic because I feel
like I brought in negative energy. Okay, bring us back.
So now in the future, in late twenty twenty three,
the superhero bubble has effectively burst. They're not grossing the
same amount. There's too much coming out to be a

(14:06):
casual fan, which I feel like is important to a
movie franchise. You have to be able to be a
casual fan, or you're really limiting your audience. The quality
of the movie seems to have dipped. Yes, and I
say this, I mean also, I'm just speaking to what
I've read and heard overall, but Guardians at the Galaxy
Volume one, twenty fourteen, I would say this is like

(14:29):
pretty close to like the peak Marvel era, right, which
I would say would be like what between twenty twelve
and twenty nineteen, right, like Avengers movies and all of
the stuff that came out in between. And then I think,
once the pandemic, I don't something something I liked WandaVision sure,

(14:50):
end of thought. But yeah, this is like peak Marvel movies,
and it's.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
A good movie. It's fun, right. Didn't you liked it?

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, and you had never seen it before? Right?

Speaker 1 (15:00):
No, my history with guard Yeah, I guess I just
gave my history with Marvel movies or just all over
the place, very very hit or miss. I feel like
what I think is interesting about or at least was
interesting about Marvel movies at one point, was that like
you could kind of go with a I guess in
my mind like a director to director preference, where like this,

(15:23):
you can obviously feel that this is a James gun
movie that exists within the purview of this larger universe.
And I like James gunn and so I liked this movie.
I just I didn't see it when it came out,
and then in subsequent installments, I was like, I got
to watch the first one, and then I just sort
of never did because it's not my uh not my
vibe generally, But I really I enjoyed James Gunn. We

(15:46):
covered Scooby Doo this year, Yes, and there was multiple
times where I wished that Groot was Scooby Is that anything?
I think that like Grout has Scooby energy where he
says one thing and James Gunn was like, I've done
this twice. So here's because of Monsters Unleashed.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Here's my brilliant thought. I have two brilliant thoughts. Number one,
let's blow them early.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yes, yeah, and then and then.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
The rest of the episode will absolutely suck drivel thought
Number one. Yeah, Okay, so we know about I Am Groot,
but have you ever thought about I Am Grew?

Speaker 1 (16:26):
And that makes you think? And that's also why you
don't need to take us seriously because we love the videans.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
I mean, talk about a franchise.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
My god, I'm worth with legs with lore for the people. Unpretentious.
I believe all of this. I saw that I went
to Universal Studios recently. Bran Thank you season pass holder.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
And I'm going tomorrow thrilling.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
It was a great, a great time, but I want
to I wanted to go for grinch Miss because I
do love me some grinch Miss. Grinch Miss still great,
but I also was like, how are they going to
holiday by the Minions? And it didn't disappoint even if
you don't. I mean, I know that there's not much
to do there for adults maybe, but you gotta stop

(17:19):
and check out the minion tree. Okay, there's a Honken
minion tree. Stuart's on top. I was loving it.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Did you get any pictures?

Speaker 1 (17:28):
I did, I'll send them. I'll send them. Oh, of
course I got picked. Thank you for checking.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
I'll get pictures also, and then we will post them
to the Instagram.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
The people demand it. So yeah, that's the Minions update. Okay.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
Oh and then my other brilliant thought is, yeah, I
was thinking it would be very funny if instead of
watching Guardians of the Galaxy, that one of us accidentally
watched the movie Legend of the Guardians colon the Owls.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Of go hol Oh I've do you remember that?

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (18:05):
I saw it. I saw it because I was a
fan of the books. Is that bad. They were like
chapter books for sixth graders, and I was really invested
in their journey, and then like Zack Snyder was like,
I've got this.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
I had no idea that was a Zack Snyder movie.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Oh my god. It's like, I don't know. I'm not
a Zack Snyder complacist, which maybe one could assume about me,
but I thought his his riskiest cinematic choice ever was
taken on Gohl and the movie is like bad, it
would be a fun April Fools movie because you're just
like those owls were so self serious. It was just

(18:44):
it was a bit much.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
I've never seen it.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
It's like they don't even know they're owls. It's ridiculous.
I loved it. I loved it.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
But like how Rocket doesn't know he's a raccoon?

Speaker 1 (18:55):
That and that is like an s t here Bradley
Cooper before. It's like Jackson Mane, Rocket Raccoon, whatever else
that's about hangover movies. That's not yeah, that's we don't
need to talk about those. I really I was thinking
about Jackson Maine recently, as I often want to do.

(19:20):
He is that is like one of the greatest, like
up there with Mommy Dearest of like one of the
greatest camp performances ever. Given the choices he's making turn
my head around three sixty Gahl style, it's it's it's
just absurd. I love I love him in that movie,

(19:44):
I you know, have a bone, but you know that's
not for today. He plays a raccoon in this movie. Yes,
and we're like, and that's interesting. What's your history with
Guardians of the Galaxy the franchise in this movie.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
I've seen all three volumes in theater, and I've seen
probably this first one most often. I think I've probably
seen it like four or five times now. I generally
liked it. It also just feels like similar to the
way Star Trek two thousand and nine feels like a
Star Wars movie, this very much feels like a Star

(20:18):
Wars movie, and.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's almost like everyone's trying to make a Star Wars.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
A little bit. And so as a Star Wars fan,
this was my jam when it came out, and I
still enjoy this movie. I find it to be very fun.
I like the trilogy in general. I like the characters.
I like when they show up in the other MCU movies.
So yeah, I would say that I'm a casual fan

(20:43):
of this franchise. So hmm, that's about it from me.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Hell yeah, I mean, I yeah, did you like the
all all three installments? I also, I'm I'm curious because
I didn't when I knew that you were watching Out
three to prepare, I did not look into the uh
subsequent character arcs of these characters.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
After all, I'm ready with Caitlin's context.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Corner perfect because I all, I know a little bit
from cultural osmosis. I know that Volume two somehow turns
the daddy factor.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
Up significantly by a lot. Yes, I find that one
to be the most underwhelming of the three interesting. The
first one is the most fun. But as far as
like eliciting an emotional reaction from me, Volume three. When
I was rewatching it yesterday, I cried like fifteen different

(21:37):
times because it's so much it's a lot about Rocket
and his backstory and like all of the like animal
abuse he's suffered, and so it's like a lot about
like the abuse and mistreatment of animals, and it's just
like it got me so sad and crying.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
I knew, I knew U little about that, but I like,
I yeah, I I I'm interested to hear more about
that because in a way that I mean, it seems
hopefully satisfying, because I guess it's weird by the time
this comes out, you've been with these characters for nine
years in one capacity or another. Would not have been
what I would guess the third movie would be about,

(22:15):
just based on how kind of like broad a character
Rocket is presented as in the first movie.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, it's interesting, it's a bit surprising.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
So there's a lot to talk about today. And there's also,
of course, because we foreshadowed it in the last episode,
a lot of to talk about about Zoe's Aldonna and
when she's in space, because that's why we've all gathered
here today.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
It sure is so without much further ado, should I
do the recap?

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, let's let's recap it.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Okay, So we open on Earth, I think specifically Missouri, YEP.
In nineteen eighty eight. We meet a young Peter Quill

(23:06):
I think he's probably like nine or so. He's at
a hospital where his mom is on her deathbed. She
gives him a wrapped gift and says that his grandpa
is going to take care of him, at least until
his dad comes back to get him, so we'll put
a pin in that, and I'm just like, my.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Goodness, we really need a It's that classic movie chestnut
a woman has to die before the movie starts. Here, like, oh,
you know Starlard is like Lokia Disney Princess.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Oh yeah, that's just kind of gender swapped and worse. Huh.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
I'm not a Starlar fan. I think. Also it's interesting
that this movie comes well, not completely, but I think
in a big way. In the big movie way. Was
like Chris Pratt. It's like, you know, debutante ball for
being bubuff, which we could talk about too. Yeah, but
also in twenty twenty three not as fun to I

(24:11):
think it was like it was still fun to watch
Chris Pratt until like in twenty eighteen, and then you're like,
I'm sick of this guy, I think. And then he's
like a Republican and then you're like, I hate this guy,
but he's still in everything.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
He's like a he's a homophobic ableist, like religious Zelot. Yeah,
when we hate him for that.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Which is interesting because this movie is against religious zell
It and yet Chris Crowd is the star.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
Well anyways, so anyway, Peter Quill's mother passes away. Peter
is distraught. He runs outside and then a spaceship appears
and abducts him. Because then we cut to twenty six
years later. We are on an abandoned plan and adult

(25:01):
Peter Quill played by Chris Pratt. His like superhero name
is star Lord. He's a ravenger, so it's kind of
like a space cowboy space outlaw.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
And he's got all the sickest needle drops in that.
I mean, I feel like that's like one of the
things this movie or this like trilogy's most famous for us,
like needle drop meal. I mean, and they're in they're
good needle drops, just trying to take it from them,
And I like that. I like the kind of fake
out that it starts with. It feels very James Gunn
where it's like you're presented with all kind of like

(25:34):
the tropes of a Marvel movie, including the swelling music
and all this stuff, and then you get like a
little bit of levity. I feel like it sets the
stage for like taichowatd to do something similar bit different
later on.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
True, my only complaint about it is Peter Quill kicking
animals as a joke. Oh bad way to introduce a character.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah. Well, but you could also argue that he sucks.
And I mean, and this is proof. Kicking cgi rats
is proof that he sucks.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
He's cruel. Anyway. He's there on this planet to steal
this valuable orb. He doesn't know what it is. He's
just been hired to steal it. But he's intercepted by
some bad guys led by someone named Korath played by
Jamon Junsu. They also want the orb, but Quil escapes and.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
You're like, what's the orb? But well, there's an Infinity
stone in the orb? Yeah, can't they I know the
stones are powerful, but can't they just be looking for
the stone and be like, oh, by the way, the
stone's in a box like the orb the Tesser. I'm like,
oh gosh, anyways, it's done.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
It sounds like you get it, though, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
I can. I'm embarrassed at how many people I needed
to get self to be completely clear on that. It's confusing.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
Well, we'll find out later that an infinity stone is inside,
but for now, it's just an orb that has value.
Quill escapes and flies away on his spaceship, and then
he gets a call from his ravager boss Yondu, who
is the person who abducted Quill as a kid, and
Yondu is pissed at Quill for like messing up this

(27:22):
whole thing, and then he puts a bounty on him.
So then we cut to the big bad a guy
named Ronan played by Lee Pace.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
And you're like, whoa, Lee Pace is so versatile hot,
I would never have known this was Yeah, the range
on that man. It's true. He got a love Lee Pace.
I love Lee Pace this role. You know, not much
to do, but what can you do?

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Shout out to my Wait? Was it Pushing Daisies that
he was in?

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah? Oh boy, yeah, Halted catch Fire? He was in
what was in last year the movie the murder movie.
I forget the murder movie, Pete Davids, it was in it.
Rachel Senate was in it. You know the movie Ria
Back of Lofoody's Body's Bodies That's the one. He was

(28:12):
in that one too. We love it. I forgot about
that queer icon leepees. We love him. Yeah, but yeah,
not much to do here. I feel like this is
interesting in a movie where like characters that you wouldn't
expect in a Marvel movie to have a personality. I
was kind of disappointed that the villain was not given
it a personality. You got to give the villain a personality.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yeah, he's pretty boring.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
He can't just be saying mean stuff and I want
to talk about the mean stuff he's saying in a
little bit, but like not yeah, kind of flat.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Anyway, he is a cree person who wants to destroy
this planet called Zandar. We learned that Korath is one
of his minions, okay, more like Kevin le Mignon exactly.
Other minions of Ronan's are Go Mora, our girl, Zoe's

(29:01):
Aldanna and her sister Nebula played by Karen Gillen, who
are both Sanos's daughters. So Ronan wants this orb and
he is trying to deliver it to Thanos, and Gomora
is like, okay, well I'll get the ORB for you.
So she sets off to steal the ORB back from Quill,

(29:23):
who is on this planet in question, the Zandar that
Ronan wants to destroy. So we cut to Zandar where
we meet Rocket, a talking raccoon voiced by Bradley Cooper
and Groot, a sentient tree voiced by Vin Diesel, who
famously only ever says I am Groot.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
I have some very fun quotes from him about this.
Later from Vin Diesel, Yeah, okay, he gave a weird
amount of interviews to talk about having done this movie.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
H and I'll like he will talk about it. It's
very funny to me.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Okay, nice, Okay. So Rocket and Grout are bounty hunters
who see the bounty that's out for Quill, so they
go after him. Meanwhile, Gomra finds Quill and tries to
steal the ORB from him. Rocket and Groot get involved.
There's this big fight and ultimately they're arrested by John

(30:20):
c Riley Sure and thrown in space jail together, where
Gomra reveals that she wasn't retrieving the ORB for the
bad guy Ronan. She was betraying him because like her
allegiances are actually not with Ronan or her father Thanos.
She's trying to get away from them. But all of

(30:43):
the prisoners recognize Gomorra and hate her because of her
affiliation with Thanos and Ronan, so they tried to kill her.
This is where we meet Drax, played by Dave Batista.
He has a big vendetta against Ronan because Ronan murdered
his wife.

Speaker 5 (31:01):
And his daughter.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, classics, classics.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
But Quill swoops in and saves Gomorra and convinces Drax
not to kill her because she is his only chance
to get to Ronan so that Drax can kill Ronan.
Then Quill, Gomorra, Rocket and Groot make a deal to
sell the Orb and then split the hefty prophet among

(31:26):
the four of them, so they make a plan to
escape the prison so they can do this. Meanwhile, we
cut back to Ronan who is talking to Thanos, who
I believe is uncredited in this movie, but it's obviously
Josh Brolin. He is pissed that he still doesn't have
the Orb, and it's clear that Thanos knows what it is,

(31:48):
or at least what's inside of it, but at this
point the audience and Peter Quill alike don't know what
it is. Anyway, Quill and his friends escape from the prison,
including Acts because like he kind of helps them fight
off the bad guys, and they all fly away on
Quill's ship, but tension is high among them because Quill

(32:11):
and Gomra don't really trust each other Drax hates Gomorra still.
He calls our a bunch of nasty names throughout the
movie and.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Will continue to and that's part of his arc for
some reason. Yay, he learned to respect one woman sort of,
but did he you know? Fun fun fun.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
Yeah. They head to a mining colony called Nowhere to
meet the collector played by Benicio del Toro, who Gomra
had made this deal with to buy the orb and
then this is when we learn what it actually is,
or rather what's inside of it. It's the Purple Infinity Stone.

(32:57):
I forget which one it is. I don't know if
that's the Power Stone, I forget whatever. Anyway, it can
only be wielded by beings with great power, and it
can be used as a weapon to cause mass destruction.
So Goomora is like, well, we have to take it
to Novacore so that they can like contain it and
keep it safe. Novacore is like, I couldn't. It's like

(33:21):
some intergalactic government. Maybe I'm not really sure. I might
be getting this wrong, but anyway, it's run by Glenn Close.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
It's run by Glenn Close. She's got a fun hairdo. Yes,
the whole Novacore thing. It just feels very good guy coded.
But then the stuff you see them doing, You're like,
is this what a good guy would do? You know?
I don't know. Sci fi politics are so pernicious and weird,
and I don't trust Marvel in particular with having anything

(33:56):
to say politically because they're so designed to please governments
so that they can be broadcast everywhere that, like, I
feel like it's inherent. Even when they're fun to watch,
they like, by their nature have to say vaguely, like
if it's anything, it's extremely vague, in the same way
that like, if you're you know, top gum Maverick, you

(34:19):
have to have a faceless enemy because.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
You know, assigning anybody else an.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Enemy would, yeah, make it less marketable. So like, I
don't know, it's it's not even an expectation for a
Marvel movie for it to have to say anything other
than like, be nice to your friends and found family
is important, which it is. But also, yeah, there's all
the I just speaking to the political stuff. You're just like,
it's I'm the good guy versus bad guy? Is it's weird?

(34:50):
And I feel like the more I and maybe there's
stuff I'm missing, and there's stuff that comes up in
future installments which I'll ask you about, but I don't know. Like,
thinking about how this movie plays out politically was really
confusing to me, particularly with the character of Nebula, but we'll,
I guess talk about it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
No, in general, it's just a lot of upholding of
the status quo as far as like a lot of
like industrial complexes. It's like, right because of all it's
these things aren't so bad, because Ronan's whole thing is
that like, you destroyed generations of my people, and they're like, but.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
We called a peace treaty recently, and he's like fuck you,
and you're like, yeah, yeah, fair enough, you know, and whatever.
I had it out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
Well, anyway, before Peter and company can get to novacor,
Ronan shows up, so there's this whole fight and chase
and Nebula Gomora's sister manages to steal the orb for
Ronan Gomra. Meanwhile, it has like gotten out into space

(36:04):
without any kind of like space suit or anything. So
she's about to die. So Quill goes and saves her
and sacrifices himself and gives up his location to the
head Ravager. Guy Yondu. Meanwhile, Drax, Rocket and Groot are
still on Nowhere and they decide that they need to

(36:27):
go and save Quill and go Mora because they're all
kind of like becoming friends question Mark. Meanwhile, Ronan has
the orb now and now that he knows that there's
an Infinity Stone inside, he's like, oh, I don't need
Thanos to destroy Zandar for me. I can do it myself.

(36:47):
So he puts the stone in his like hammer thing
and he's like, Okay, Thanos, bye, bitch, I don't need you.
We cut back to Quill. He convinces Yondu to let
him go and that they should all go after Ronan
together because Gomra knows about Ronan's weakness, so they have

(37:09):
like a chance at defeating him. Then Rocket, Grout, and
Drax show up and they team back up with Quill
and Gomra, and they really bond over being people who
have all lost things, you know, they're homes, their loved ones,
and they're like, okay, we're like we're like a freaking

(37:30):
team now, and together they come up with a plan
to take down Ronan, and so they set off with
Yondu's Ravager army to destroy Ronan. Then Quill calls John
c Riley on Zandar to warn them. John c Riley
relays this information to Nova Prime, that's glenn closest character,

(37:52):
and so everyone on Zandar either evacuates or they prepare
for Ronan's attack. Meanwhile, Quill and his friends make their
way onto Ronan's ship. They fight Ronan's minions and then
they reach him, but he's so powerful, especially with his
Infinity Stone Hammer, so they can't defeat him yet. Uh.

(38:16):
And then this is when Groot sacrifices himself for the
other Guardians and to like save the people of Zandar.
So he dies, or so we think, but oh no,
Ronan is still undefeated. So then Quill distracts him with
a dance.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
While this all feels like so, I mean, this isn't
a criticism of the movie necessarily, just of my experience
watching it, where it just like so much of the
humor in a way that I feel like Scooby Dude
doesn't for some reason, but the humor of this movie
already feels so dated. It's like cringey, We're like, what

(38:56):
if I did or what if I Chris a homophobic
Republican did a random dance and you're like, hm, I
hate it, hating it, hating it, Chris hating it. Yeah,
you know, Live Lafler and whatever.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Right, So Quill's distracting him with this dance. While that's happening,
Drax and Rocket destroy the Infinity Stone hammer of Ronan's
and then Quill grabs the stone but oh, it's killing him.
So then his friends like all hold his hand and
it saves him, and then they use the power from

(39:33):
the stone to destroy Ronan because guess what, bitch, they're
the Guardians of the Galaxy now.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yay, but really it's star Lord is the Guardian of
the Galaxy and this is his band. Based on Gomorah's
last line, which is basically like I'll do whatever you say.
The end.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
It's annoying. Yeah, the movie ends with a couple little
like you know, Denument type things. Glenn Close is like,
by the way, Quill, we analyzed your DNA or something,
and we learned that you're half human and half something else.
Your father was this ancient being. Hmm, wonder what that's

(40:16):
all about.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Which I know is setting up to but also feels
very like Star Wars twenty tens and maybe into now
I kind of have given up, but like twenty tens
sci fi logic, which is like basically like supremacy minded,
where like you can't just be a regular person doing

(40:37):
extraordinary things anymore. It actually you have to be tied
to some exceptional bloodline and find that out. There's no
there's far less precedent for just being someone who rises
to the occasion and through their you know, there's no nurture,
it's all nature.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah, it's like what's your bloodline, what's its legacy?

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Blah blah blah, which is the whole thing with Ray
and the Last Star Wars, and I don't know, I
think that that is also just connected to this like
huge insecurity to like have to connect not just every
movie that gets greenlit, but like every plot point to
recognizable ip in a way that creates freaky fictional bloodlines

(41:19):
that you're like, I don't know, or just like trust your.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Writers, like soap opera shit, yeah yeah, where it's like
and it's actually your sister.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
I mean, and I would love to see a Marvel
style like full on soap opera, but it's all taking
itself so seriously that you're it's just is like.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
I don't know, it's a bit goofy, I don't.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
I have very little patience for it. Yeah, yeah, but nevertheless,
the movie's almost over right And then so the movie
ends with Quill finally opening the wrapped gift from his
mom and then the Guardians of the Galaxy flying off
together because they're best friends.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
And also Groot isn't dead. He's a little sapling in a.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
That was and that was unfortunate. I mean, that was cute.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
Yeah, okay, where shall we begin?

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Well, okay, something I was surprised at is that this
movie was co written by a woman, Yes, by a
writer named Nicole Pearlman. I found her journey pretty interesting.
She started in Marvel's screenwriting program, which I was not
aware of as a thing either, and started by sort of,

(42:39):
I don't know, I guess, in the screenwriting program and
this kind of sounds like fun, Like they'll lay out
a bunch of ancient comic books and you, you know,
read through them and see what kind of resonates for you,
because they were reviving so many like stagnant or kind
of forgotten properties. And so she chose Guardians of the
Galaxy and that was, you know, Eventually her script for

(43:01):
it was read by James Gunn, and they ended up
I think getting dual screenwriting credits on this movie. I mean,
because it's Marvelle, I want to like shout out her
screenwriting credit, but like, who knows what that even means
because they're so heavily workshopped and exist in this larger framework.
Who knows. But she went on to get story credits

(43:25):
for Captain Marvel and write Detective Pikachu pretty fun.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
So Mew too, she got to write the line that
Phil not he says, I am mew too.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
I don't even know if he says that, but he
says mw too, and he says it's so weird, the
ancient mew Anyways. But but in future installments, James Gunn
is the only credited writer. Uh so it seems that
Nicole Perlman was not extended the opportunity or did uncredit writing,

(44:00):
which I know happens on Marvel movies a lot in
future installments, which, while I like James Gunn, uh bummer.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
But that is a bummer.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah, so I was supposed to start start there. I
don't know makes sense to start for you. There's a
fair amount to talk about.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Well, since this is Zoe and Space, I want to
spend ample time on Gomorra and her participation and presence
in the story. Among the other female characters, because there
are a few. Obviously, this is a superhero movie, a

(44:40):
pretty standard one, which means that most of the characters
are men.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Yeah, and there can be one woman, but I feel
like they're well okay, yeah, I feel like the two
women that you have who actually meaningfully affect the plot
if we're taking out the Glenn Close government figurehead character
is Gomora and Nebula, And I know that that is
a very important relationship moving forward. But I do like, again,

(45:08):
just like speaking to the already dated feeling elements of
this movie, it feels very the McSweeney's article we've been
talking about for years of like, I am a woman,
so I kick. But if you look at well, how
does the kicking advance the narrative? Infrequently? Yeah, I would
say that the kicking and the equipping advances the plot,

(45:33):
not as much as you would be led to believe
by its frequency, because yeah, there's just a lot of
I mean, yeah, and it's a twenty fourteen movie. Again,
not trying to hold it to today's standards, but it
was noticed then as well, where it's like in the
twenty tens. And again, we were on this journey ourselves

(45:54):
because we existed through the twenty tens, not quite this early,
but whatever, just the whole like being I think that
there was like an element of being so thrilled that
women were included on screen as much that it maybe
took it be at least for general audiences and definitely

(46:14):
for me to be like, wait a second, but what
is what are they doing? Right? Like, they're doing stuff
and it was so exciting to be like, oh my god,
women are doing stuff. There's like parody in fight scenes.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
Right, she's participating in the action in this action movie
and that's something that we hadn't seen very much prior
to this.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Right, And she's a weapon and let's not worry about
the circumstances under which she became a weapon, but like,
she's an extremely like capable fighter. It's very exciting. It's
not you know, I think that there's a huge fixation
on the Mary Sooo trope in the mid twenty tens.
She's not a Mary suit. We know why she's a
good fighter. We like it and and her motivations plot

(46:57):
wise do extend beyond and the male love interest. So
we're getting more than we're used to in twenty fourteen.
But I think, you know, with the benefit of hindsight,
you look at, well, what does her fighting accomplish to
advance the plot? Where does she end up versus where
she started? And there's still a lot of tropiness and

(47:19):
damseling and just stuff that you know, it's not a
seismic shift.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
Right, So yeah, I was noticing this about just like
plot points where when she's introduced, it's in the context of,
you know, she seems like a villain. She seems like
she's gonna be an obstacle for Quill, especially because she
like goes after him and steals the orb. But not

(47:46):
clear to me why if she intends to betray you know,
Ronan and Thanos, why wouldn't she go to Quill and
be like, hey, like let's make a deal or like
let's have a bargain here. Not why I don't know.
Maybe there's some like comic book context where she always
chooses the fight or something like that. But anyway she steals.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
The well, that's maybe you can justify that by her
being like a trained wepon like programmed to yeah to violence,
but that there's a lot of stuff to talk about
there too, Yeah right, right right.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
So anyway, she steals the ORB from him, they fight,
and that's sort of like the catalyst that gets the
whole group to even come together at all, because that
leads Rocket and Groot to be involved in this fight.
They all get arrested together. So like her actions sort
of instigate this group even being formed, you could argue.

(48:44):
But beyond that, her participation in the plot is way
more minimal than I wanted it to be. She is
there in action scenes, fighting alongside and with men, but
there are moments where like, okay, Rocket gets the it's
his plan who gets them busted out of prison, So like,

(49:06):
yay for Rocket for doing that. Obviously, Peter Quill is
the protagonist, so a lot of his actions and motivations
are driving the story. You know, Groot gets this big
moment at the end where he sacrifices himself for the
greater good Drax Uh maybe I don't know. I need
to ponder him a bit more, but there's a very
frustrating moment to me as it relates to Gomora, where

(49:30):
you think she's gonna have this big thing to contribute
toward the end, because.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Ye Quill is like he's talking to his space daddy
what's his name, YANDU, and he's like, you need our help.
We can go after these bad guys together, and we
have a ringer because Gomra knows Ronan and knows his vulnerabilities.
So you think that you're gonna see that information that

(49:58):
Gomorra has off in some way and does it. No, no, no,
it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Know. It becomes a moment that is extended to basically
every character except for Gomora for some reason, like I
feel like every I mean again, it's like just speaking
to the kind of emptiness of some of the scenes
we see that she's active in of everyone gets a

(50:25):
big moment towards the end, and Gomora's is that she's
fighting with her sister, but in terms of plot impact.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
It's not. It's at least right after that, like again
kind of catalytic moment towards the beginning, she's not really
doing much to contribute to like the group, the group
dynamic of like Okay, this person did this thing, this
person did this thing. Now it's Gomora's turn to like
do something significant and that never really happens, right, So

(50:55):
that's frustrating.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
I felt like, and I think that like in terms
of at least with blockbusters, there was an increased pressure
to give women in movies things to do and acknowledge patriarchy.
This was very vague, and I feel like that comes

(51:16):
through in the ways that it's done here because it's
really just like quips. It's and I think that it's
stuff we talked about before, where it's equips and then
doing it anyways. Like there's a point where, like I
think Rocket suggests that Gomora act as like sexy bait
to get something done while they're still in prison, and

(51:37):
she says, you've gotta be freaking kidding me, and that
was the feminism of the scene, and you're like, oh
my god, but they still all want her to do
it right or other times like I'm with the biggest
idiots in the galaxy and that's a feminism. Just acknowledging
that the men around her are not treating her well

(52:00):
is enough to continue to allow it to happen in
the plat.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Right, or like when Drax is like, oh, why are
we still hanging out with this whore. He calls her
a whoror he.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Calls her a green wore, which also has another element,
and that's another thing we had to talk about.

Speaker 6 (52:16):
But yes, and then she like scoffs, but and Drax
is absolved of having done that inside of two minutes
because in that same scene, this was I think the
thing that drove me most out of my brain in
terms of Gomorrah, because I think I understand yours makes

(52:36):
total sense with the information with Brown in what felt
to me I was like the gall to do this
where Drax has just called Gomorrah a green whore as
a joke, clearly meant as a joke, yeah for.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
The audience, and she goes ugh. Then her sister appears
also begins berating her, and for some reason, Drax wins
that scene and you know, knocks Nebula down and then
it's like you are my friend. And so somehow Drax.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Comes out of that scene the good thing because he
said something like, don't talk about my friend that way,
and it's like you just called her a whore two
seconds ago, two seconds ago, and also one of the
only characters that it is like and I know that
Gomora does end up fighting her, but even in that scene,
the fact that Gomora doesn't do anything she doesn't that's
a great opportunity for to advance that character relationship is

(53:31):
Nebula is showing up and berating her because there is
a very like I feel like their relationship is so
I mean with layers added on, but like very succession coded,
where like who's gonna get the kiss from Daddy? Right,
and like Nebula really wants the kiss from Daddy and
she will do she will murder whoever she has to

(53:52):
to get the kiss from Daddy, including her sister, right.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
And Okay, is that that, you know rife with drupes? Yes,
I liked it on Succession, but this is a Succession.
It's simply not as good. But yeah, to have those
two characters in an emotionally charged confrontation and then have
the purpose of that scene to be to advance Drax's

(54:16):
character versus Gomoras, I was just like, uh no, that's
very annoying.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
And speaking of and we'll talk more about Gomorra and
Nebula's relationship when I get into the kind of overview
of the sequels, because there is an interesting arc there Okay,
what I wanted to say for this movie, for this
first volume, and we've talked about this quite a bit
on the podcast, where if women are allowed to participate

(54:47):
in the action in an action movie, oftentimes they're only
allowed to fight other other women. That's not entirely true
for this movie, because we do see Gomora fighting a
bunch of men, especially towards the beginning, right right, Yeah,
there is a pretty big battle between her and Nebula
toward the end, But it didn't really ping for me

(55:08):
as that because we've already seen Gomora fight a bunch
of men, and this is more like narratively charged because
it's a fight between sisters who are diametrically opposed and
they have all of this history and and again the
movies go on to explore their relationship quite a bit
in later installments. So but I for a split second,

(55:32):
I was like, hmm, women fighting women. But I feel
like that discussion we've had before doesn't fully apply here.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Yeah, I agree, I was. I think because it's already
been well established that Gomora can fight anyone, and that
in fact, she is like built to be able to
fight anyone. Her climactic battle being with her sister didn't
bump me too much. But but yeah, I mean I
think that that and just like knowing the extent of

(56:02):
what I do about like Jame's gun who I think
like of the and again it's like you can always
fall into a Joss Whedon trap there. You never know
when that trapdoor is gonna open. But of the male
Blockbuster directors at that time, it seemed like he I
would guess that that was a conscious choice to not

(56:22):
just limit her to fighting other women. Right, Yeah, that
doesn't mean he gets off the freakin' hook because.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
There because you know what alse happens.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Tell me, Kitlyn.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Gomora has to be saved by men twice, first in
the prison when some of the prisoners slash tracks are
trying to kill her, and then Quill swoops in and says,
don't do it. And then later about halfway through the
movie when she's floating out in space about to die.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Killed or almost killed by her unsafe, which I think, again,
I'm excited to hear how that results because A I
don't know, and be like, it's a very powerful setup,
and so I mean, you gotta hand it to her.
I feel like Nebula at points is more active in
the plot than Gamora in spite of being barely there,

(57:19):
because she does actively choose to be like I'll kill
my sister that I won't. I don't have to feel
great about it, but I'll do it, and I'm doing it.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Nebula being more active than Gamora in the story is
something that happens. I would say quite a bit in
the later.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Oh yeah, wow, well we'll get there. But the quote
Zoe's al dada herself. Gamora is kind of the mom
of the group, so it makes sense she wouldn't have
time to be active because she has to parent all
disese adult men that she's hanging out.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
With, and unfortunately that is a familiar dynamic for a
lot of women and fems. Ye, so Gomora has to
be saved twice. She does kind of save Peter Quill
at the end because she was like the first one
to hold his hand when he's like grabbing onto the
infinity stone. But then like everyone but that it just

(58:17):
doesn't feel the same to me.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
I and feel free to you know, like run me
over with a truck ideologically, but that moment also pinged
me a little weird because there's multiple moments in the
back half of this movie that connect Gomora to Peter's
dead mom. It happens twice. The most significant time is

(58:45):
what you're just describing. Where Peter's like in Infinity Stone World,
like wherever Margaret Robbie Barbie was when she was with
Ria Pearlman, like whatever that place is that people go.
At the end of the movie, Peter was there and
his mom was reached out to him like she did
at the beginning of the movie when she was dying
and said, Peter, take my hand, and he reaches out

(59:06):
for her hand, and then it switches to Gomora's hand,
And that is I think a very intentional choice that
feels and I would guess like not intentionally, but just
like inherently connecting any woman that's important to him is
going to be a mothering figure, like connecting mommy to

(59:30):
my girlfriend in fiction or in life. I don't like
it and don't do that.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
That's some edible shit, right the hair.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
And I mean it's it's edible. But like also I
think that it just conditions young men to view women
the same like the like every woman that means something
to me has to mean the same thing that the
first woman who meant something to me did, which means
that my.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Girlfriend is my mommy and you're like no, no, and
like establishes expectations for men that like, oh, my girlfriend
or my wife like is going to take care of
me and be responsible for all of my emotional nurturing
and like just and like household domestic things and like

(01:00:21):
all this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
And that said, do I expect every single one of
the boyfriends I've had to report on the Boston Bruins? Yes,
I do. I do, And so you know, it affects
us all I do. I expect all. I expect girlfriends

(01:00:42):
to be my mommy and boyfriends to report in the
Boston Bruins. But that's about it, that's all. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Yeah, well that's reasonable.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
I'll you know, I'll do everything else, but please report
in the Boston Bruins.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's fair. Well, that kind
of brings us into the romantic tension between Peter Quill
and Gomra.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
So this will be explored more when I go through
the sequels, but in this first movie, it's very clearly
being set up that there's romantic tension between them. There's
a moment where they're kind of vibing. He is sharing
his music with her. They're like kind of holding on

(01:01:28):
to each other, dancing a little bit. They're about to kiss,
but for some reason she doesn't notice how close they
are and how much they're about to kiss, and as
soon as she does, when they're like an inch apart,
she pushes him off of her and says something like
I'm not some starry eyed waif here to succumb to

(01:01:49):
your pelvic sorcery.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Which is the most twenty fourteen line ever written. Oh
my god, Okay, yeah, Like she's like a breath away
from being like this is so random, epic bacon.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Like, it's just like hashtag awesome sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
It's a little exhausting. Yeah, pelvic sorcery. I'm just like, oh, OsO,
that feels like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
A line that Drax would say, not her.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
Right, because she doesn't like that's not Yeah, I didn't
even think of that, Like I just wrote down twenty
fourteen boo real bummer. Yeah. I feel like it's like
what everyone makes fun of millennials speak being, which is
a separate tangent. I feel like what everyone makes fun
of a generation for is actually a sin of the

(01:02:36):
previous generation because gen X, you know, like James Gunn
is a gen X guy and wrote movies that resonated
with millennials. It is technically a crime of gen X.
And so in the future, you know, everything gen Z
likes was majority written by millennials. Whatever, Yeah, whatever, we'll
get there. It doesn't matter. We maybe won't get there,

(01:02:59):
It doesn't matter who can say. But I feel like
there was this very of the time tendency to again
in the same way that like that you could just
perpetuate all of the same tropes that have appeared in
these genres for years and years and years, but in
the mid twenty tens, if you acknowledged it with a joke,

(01:03:20):
you could just proceed with the trup right, And that
feels true on a number of levels, And like that
romantic relationship was one of them where she like there's
a there's two significant jokey moments that does not undercut
the sexual tension between them in any way, shape or form,
including when after Peter saves Gomora for the second time,

(01:03:44):
when she's dying in space, he brings her back and
he's you know, starting to do the kind of like
end of speed speech. I think of it as like
I love you blah blah blah, and like and then
she you know, in the middle, they're like, wait a second,
is this ram.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Meanwhile he's like lying on top of her in missionary position.
He's it's all the same.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
It's all the same, and it's just like intercutting it
with like, uh, I don't mean to again, I feel
like I'm being overly hard on it, but it is
just like the same trope and interrupting it with a
very dated one liner and a needle drop and then
doing the same thing right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Well, my big problem with their relationship dynamic, which again
gets started here and then it culminates in you know,
different ways as we see these characters in later installments,
but you never really understand aside from the attractive people
being near each other trope. Yeah, I don't really everget

(01:04:50):
why they're into each other. But it's also like pretty
one sided for a while, where like Peter Quill is
obviously interested in and attracted to Moora and for a
long time she keeps rejecting him, which is also exhausting
to watch because the movie still frames it as a

(01:05:10):
like will they or won't they? Stay tuned inevitable.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Yes, they will to care like, of course they will,
and it's gonna be so boring. Do we want to
get into that now or what is a good I'm
trying to think if I have any because I have,
like Zoe Seldonna stuff, I don't know that I have
very much. Oh, actually I did want to speak about
the and maybe this will be a transition. How I

(01:05:38):
think that, like the tension between Nebula and Gomora is
genuinely really interesting and really cool, and it is so
unfortunate that it ostensibly boils down to a daddy problem. However,
I do think that I've seen writing and no disrespect anyway,

(01:06:01):
I have seen writing that like indicates like Gomorrah and
Nebula have daddy problems. How trite. I think that their
problems actually are really complicated and interesting, and yeah, I
wish that again. That's why I'm so frustrated when like
potentially cool scenes between them in the first installment at

(01:06:23):
least are cut by like a random moment of emotional
progression for drags, which I don't really care about. And like,
I think that like where they're coming from, where they
are first of all, like there's so many issues that
they're dealing with in a way that it like totally
they have like sibling tension, which siblings that grew up
completely well adjusted have. Anyways, they are both from their

(01:06:48):
adopted from different planets, and I think that the word
adopted is being really stretched there, oh for sure, because
they it's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:56):
More abducted than adopted.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
Right, I mean, and there's a whole you know, this
is for another episode, but you know there's a whole
sort of area of thought within the adopted community that
feels the same way, and like there's there's so whatever,
we'll come back to another time. But but they're dealing
with an extremely complicated set of circumstances where they grew
up as sisters, they were conditioned to compete for who

(01:07:23):
they were told was their parents' love was actually an
abductor who had demolished their home worlds, their home world
and their biological parents, right and then just and also
were physically altered to serve their adoptive parents' purposes. Like
I think, while I have a million criticisms for this movie,

(01:07:47):
they're being tension between Gomorrah and Nebula like is very
well established as to why that might be. It doesn't
feel like because I mean, I think in a lot
of movies, what we've talked about in the past is
that like, well, there's two women, so of course they're
in conflict. There are two women, they are in conflict.
But I understand why. It makes a lot of sense, yes,

(01:08:10):
And I was like genuinely interested to find out where
that went because it feels like they're like going in
two separate directions theoretically, right, And this is why Camorra
is such a tricky character, because like, theoretically, you think
you're given two sisters, same parent, and one is going
the revolutionary route and one is going through the you know,

(01:08:34):
traditional fiscistic, evil government route. But Gomora doesn't even really
get to go through the revolutionary routes. So in the
first installment, at least it fell flat for me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
I would say, it doesn't improve very much as things
go on. Bummer, yeah, yeah. Should I get into the
sequels just yeah, I think we're kind of nearing there,
and then we'll go back to the first movie because
there's other things to talk about there. But so I'll

(01:09:10):
give a little prelude here. But I found it interesting
that Guardians of the Galaxy at least volume one. Unlike
basically every other movie to ever exist, this movie is
not about fathers and sons. It's about mothers and sons.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Or well, I feel like there's a lot because there's
mothers and sons, there's fathers and daughters and daughters, right
and and I mean, I guess there's like sons and
if you're what is that guy's name? Oh my god, Okay,
what was his name? There's so many guys. Uh yan do?
I feel like Yondu is the closest you get to
like a father's son tension dynamic, as like Peter and

(01:09:50):
Yan do. But it does feel like, yeah, mothers and
sons and fathers and daughters, which is unusual.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
Yes, it's unusual. It's interesting. And so you know, for Quill,
he's very attached to the memory of his mom. He's
very attached to anything his mom ever gave him. In
this case, it's a walkman, it's his most cherished possession.
He risks his life to go back to the prison
to get.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
It, gets tasered.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Yeah, it's so Again, it's not a story about fathers
and sons until volume two because then.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Well, and I think that that's because I know that
Volume two involves in a live father, and I think,
like we can say that volume one is about mothers
and sons, but we the mother gets one line. We
don't know anything about her other than she die.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
For sure, So it's not so much about the character herself,
it's about the idea or memory of her.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
I just feel like we could have done better, We
could have known more about it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
What was her?

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Did she have a job? Did she have a job, No.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
We don't know. We don't know anyway. So that brings
us to Guardians of the Galaxy Volume two, Quill finally
meets his dad. He is a god played by Kurt Russell.
Sure Quill is so happy to finally meet his daddy.
He has apparently as of this movie, because we don't

(01:11:14):
really get a sense of this in the first movie,
but he talks in volume two about how he's always
longed to meet his father his whole life. Oh all
he ever wanted to do is play catch with him,
which is like, really the trupiest thing I've ever.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Heard play catch?

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
And then they play catch together with a ball of
like celestial light.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
It's a most So it's a little joke. Okay, hate
that hate it, hate it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:39):
But Quill's father, whose name is Ego, is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
That supposed to mean something? Never mind? Never mind never mind?

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
No no, no, no no, you're thinking too hard, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
I have to rest. I have to lay down. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
So Ego turns out to be the Big Bad turn
to be the big Dad who's taking over the universe,
and he wants Quill to help him. He also reveals
that he's responsible for Peter Quill's mom's death because he
gave her a brain tumor. So then when Peter learns this,

(01:12:18):
he's like, well, fuck you, I hate you. And then
they all try to kill and then successfully kill Ego,
but he kills his dad. He kills his daddy slay.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
Okay, that's kind of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Also Oedipus complex shit, But.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
I mean slay that I wasn't expecting. I thought he
was gonna forgive his father, because that's also like such
a you know, twenty tens trend for villains, and like, no,
you can kill him, Oh that's fine. Yeah, no, well
at least he kills.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
They they kill him dead. But then that father son
dynamic that you were picking up on between Peter Quill
and Yondu becomes way more prominent, and then that is
a component of the movie. But then also Yon dou
dies because he sacrifices himself for Peter Quill.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
And you know what's interesting, because I saw Avengers, the
big one is that Peter gets to kill his evil dad,
whereas Gomorra's evil dad kills her. And that's interesting, is
it it?

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
It sure is? Yes, it is. Anyway, what else happens
in volume two? There is still a you know, will
they or won't they? Dynamic between Quill and go Mora.
He continues to pursue her, his feelings about her are

(01:13:41):
made known. She keeps rejecting him, saying, oh, there's.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Quippy little one liners, and then at the end she's like, oh, Peter,
I guess you are the best at being in space whatever.
I hate. I know we were recently there and it's
worse here. But like, if they're so.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
Every time, it's just bad. All times are bad?

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
What what?

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Anyway, he keeps pursuing her, she keeps rejecting him. This
movie never really culminates into anything. There's no kiss, there's
no They do put their arms around each other at
the end, I mean, but they're still not like together.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
And is that just because there's three movies planned I wonder,
I get.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
I'm not sure what happens in the third one with them. Well, okay,
we have to we have to switch over to the
Avengers now, at least in terms of there. But before
I even get there, I'll say a couple more things
about volume two as they relate to our discussion. There
is another major female character who is introduced to like

(01:14:53):
pretty much becomes a member of the Guardians. Her name
is Mantis, played by Palm and life.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Is that how you say it? I remember JPEGs of
this character.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
Yes, yes, she I like that character a lot. She's
another female character that Drax is unnecessarily cruel to. Seems
to be his thing. Seems to be his thing. Her
like superpower is that she's an mpath. She has like
a very heightened ability, like magical superhero ability.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
And we talk, well we talked about this a little bit.
It's star Trek, but that's that's also a Star Trek thing.
In a way that I think has been heavily criticized
is like coding women and fem characters as highly empathic
in ways that men are inherently not interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Okay, yes, And then as far as the relationship between
Gomora and her sister Nebula in volume two, Nebula, over
the course of this movie slowly becomes their ally rather
than their enemy. And it happens basically because go Mora
is like, don't you see that our father who stole

(01:16:04):
us is a really bad guy and we actually have
to destroy him. And then and I'm like probably oversimplifying this,
and I should have written more down about this than
I did, so I'm like, my memory's a little foggy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
But okay, I mean I do I like that idea
at its core of like we have to destroy who
kidnapped us and killed our family.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Yeah, yeah, I like it too. And then so Nebula
starts to like see reason and like come over to
the Guardian's side. And then toward the end of this movie,
Gomora does have to be saved again, but this time
it's by Nebula and not Peter, just saying okay, now
we're switching over to Avengers Infinity War. Is it's not

(01:16:54):
the big one, it's that's the small one.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Oh, the middle one. That's the middle one, or the.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
Three the three or four three of four? So this
is the one where Thanos is going around the universe
collecting all the Infinity Stones. So the Guardians go to
Nowhere to try to kill Thanos. They're unsuccessful, and Thanos
kidnaps Gomorra because he knows that she knows where one

(01:17:20):
of the stones is, the Soul Stone, and he has
to make a sacrifice to get it. That sacrifices to
kill someone he loves, so he kills Gomorra by throwing
her off a cliff. Before this happens, though, because it
happens toward the end. Before this happens, we see more
of Quill and Gomorrah's relationship. They kiss on screen for

(01:17:43):
the first time, I.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
Think in an Avengers movie.

Speaker 3 (01:17:47):
Yes, yes, they say I love you to each other
for the first time, also in this movie.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
I feel like the Avengers movies are also like the
most middle of the road leaning on conservative of them
all too, because I feel like that that was a
criticism I remember seeing that obviously I cannot speak to personally,
but that like characters that we would see in their
individual movies acting with some sort of nuance would appear

(01:18:15):
with far less nuance in Avengers movies.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
I mean that doesn't surprise me because the Avengers movies,
I feel like, are designed to appeal to the massist.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
It's a global product. Yeah, and so I feel like
any sort of like quirk unique to a performance choice
or a writer or a director is kind of like
sashed over in the in the ensemble movies.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Yeah right, yes, So in Infinity War, the romantic relationship
between Quill and Gamora, or that romantic tension has apparently
developed off screen, and now it seems like they're together.
They love each other, they kiss now, and and I
don't know exactly how to feel that because on one hand,

(01:19:03):
I don't want there to be too much of their
relationship taking up too much like narrative real estate on screen,
especially because I'm not rooting for their relationship. But also,
if it is there, I at least want to understand
why they like each other. And right now I don't
understand that because I don't know. The movie doesn't pay

(01:19:23):
enough attention to their relationship, So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
I think it's I think it sucks, and it, like
I like with so many characters, is done because it's
the easiest thing to do with Gomora, when in fact,
based on what we know about Gamora. There's a million
more interesting things she could be doing, for sure, and
that doesn't preclude a love interest. I don't mean to

(01:19:47):
say that any woman character can you know, like not
be in love doy it's lowed, but I think like
and I think that this also falls into the clear
pattern how Zoe's Aldona has been type cast over and
over where. Even though she's presented as hypercompetent and authority

(01:20:07):
on something and important narrative connections to the plot, she
is always falling in love with the white male lead.
And in Guardians, I feel like her character at least
in the world of the movie, because I Knowhra has lore,

(01:20:28):
but it doesn't really appear in the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
True.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
Out of the three Zois Aldana space movies, Guardians, Avatar
and star Trek Kamura has the most to pull from,
and I feel like the falling back on the relationship
is like the least necessary or called for by a
country mile in the world of how much information we're

(01:20:51):
given about her, But it just feels I mean, and
I'm sure that this is tied back to the comics,
but it's just like or don't you.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
Know, or you don't have to have the one woman
in your main cast be tied romantically to the lead man.
You don't have to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:11):
And that's what frustrates me about adaptation evangelism too, where
it's like, well, if it's adapted exactly as it was
in the sixties or seventies, then there will be no
narrative progress. And is that just the goal? Is there?
Just like you know, we have to be trapped within
that the same exact values that this franchise like came

(01:21:36):
out underneath. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, whatever, though,
sure they're in love. They're in love.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
And then also, bizarrely, in this Avengers movie, you get
more backstory on Gomorra than you do in any of
the Guardians movies because you see a flashback where Sanos
like goes to her home planet. You see her with
her mother, her family. He destroys them, but he has
taken like young Gomorra aside, gives her a little weapon

(01:22:07):
to play with to distract her as he's murdering her
entire people, and then takes her with him. So we
see that and it's I'm sure very traumatizing and triggering
for a lot of people to watch, but we get
that backstory in an Avengers movie and not a Guardian's movie.

Speaker 1 (01:22:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Now moving on to Avengers End Game parentheses the big one.
So at the end of Infinity War, Thanos does the
Snap that kills half the population of the universe. So
the remaining MCU characters band together and they do a
time heist where they go back to the past and
collect the Infinity Stones before Thanos gets them in the Snap.

(01:22:51):
I believe, And now I'm not even sure, so Matrons
sound off in the comments, I don't even know if
we see this or not again, because I was like
skipping around, probably missed some stuff here and there. I
think Gomora must have, like you know, vanquished in the
in the Snap, she must have like you know, dissipated
into dust, as do most of the Guardian's characters, with

(01:23:14):
the exception being Nebula. So most of the Guardian's characters
are not even in the first half of Endgame, and
it's not until the other characters start time traveling and
going back.

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):
To the past. Yeah, because nothing matters, and.

Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
Because there are no stakes and you can just do
whatever the fuck you want, Miss Pratt can get paid
for anything. But because the past is interfered with it
changes the course of history, which, again, from what I understand,
I think this means that the version of Gomorra, or
that like this version of Gomorra that we see toward

(01:23:49):
the end of Infinity War, never joined the Guardians and
never met Quill. So toward the end of this movie,
when all of the MCU characters are battling Thanos and
his minions, his Kevin Lei Mignon's Hello Bello, Okay, we
see Quill and Gomora kind of reuniting, but it's the

(01:24:12):
Gomora who never met Quill. So she's like, who are you?
Don't touch me? And she kicks him or she like
knees him in the balls. And that's the dynamic that
gets brought into Guardians Volume three, where Gomora does not
remember Peter or any of her time with the Guardians. Okay,
so she and Peter are not together in this movie.

(01:24:32):
That doesn't stop him from trying to get with or
He's he's trying to get her to be open to
them getting together, but she's like no, thank you. Yeah,
she's like, no, thank you. The person who you were
in love with that's not me, that was someone else,
that was a different version of me. So pass no,
thank you, good for her. And that's like pretty much

(01:24:54):
where that dynamic ends. Like there's no like he still
he still loves her, but they don't get together. That
does not culminate in her like changing her mind or
realizing she does actually love him like that is not
That's not how that movie ends. It's just like they
go their separate ways. She she's like a ravager now,
so she just goes back with the Ravagers and there's

(01:25:17):
no like romantic situation between them anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
That's really interesting. I mean, and I I'm sure that
there's a whole like thesis paper on what changed between
twenty fourteen and twenty twenty three in terms of how
we view women in movies and in like the Marvel
superheroic genre specifically. That might have led to making choices

(01:25:46):
that would have made that possible, because I feel like,
if you know, if the movie start in two thousand
and three and and in twenty twelve, it I don't know,
I don't know if we would say that that's really interesting, Yeah,
growth question mark.

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):
Possibly, Yeah, hard to say. But and then so in
volume three, I would say there is more of a
focus on Nebula and Mantis than there is on Go Mora,
which is like, you know, I like Gomra, so I
do want to see her, but they do tend to
focus more on these other two female characters, and they
are more you know, active and narratively significant in volume three.

(01:26:25):
And then the final thing I will say about volume
three is that Will Poulter is in it. So oh
that is interesting to you.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
I think it's so wild that, like, even Will Poulter
being in it was not enough to get my ass
out of my house. And that really speaks to how
exhausting I can find a Marvel movie. Is that my
number one crush who I would implode my life over
to to be with, even in a theater I did

(01:26:57):
not go and I kind of forgot that that happened.

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
That's fascinating, Yes, okay, so yeah, that's like the context
for the other movies that these characters appear in, and
like how those arcs manifest.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
That's really interesting. I mean, there's a lot of unexpected
least and I would wonder because I did that Marvel,
at least for some stretch of time, was like very
planned out. But I guess I just spitballing I'd be
surprised to hear that, like that couple not ending up

(01:27:34):
ultimately together was the plan. That's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I wonder almost if like, and
this is pure speculation here, so don't quote me on
this at all, but I wonder if Zoe Saldana was like,
I'm tired of my characters in these huge franchises getting
stuck with the like, you know, boring white guy lead,
So can you write something else for me?

Speaker 1 (01:27:59):
Or a more pragmatic version of that? Is like very
possible that she had a lot of shooting conflicts because
she was in New Zealand shooting Avatar all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:28:09):
Could be that as well, So I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
Anything is possible. I And again I can't speak to
the character mantas, haven't meta, don't noah, but I think
it's interesting and in the first I don't know. I mean,
it's interesting that the three movies came out over such
a long period of time, because it sounds like almost
ten years. Yeah, it sounds like there is like a
noted change in how these characters are treated, which is

(01:28:32):
which is nice. It's you know, probably confusing to watch
this trilogy of the future, but it's nice I wanted to.
I guess just continuing on Zoe's Aldona and Space and
I have a few things. I have things to say
about the other characters, but I want to make sure
we touch on this. Yes, we referenced this in the

(01:28:52):
Star Trek episode. However, Zoe's Aldona is her natural skin
tone Star Trek so and was playing a historically black character,
so there wasn't quite as much to say. However, and
we've also talked about this. You can go and listen
to our episode that is I think almost exactly a
year old now on Avatar Alie Naughty, where we talked

(01:29:14):
about the same thing about how zoeys Aldana has starred
in three major sci fi franchises, and in two out
of three of them she is playing a character that
is either blue or green, and in all three of
them ends up being the love interest of the white

(01:29:35):
male protagonist named either Chris or Sam. In two out
of three of them bear named Chris. So really sit
and think about that for a second. But I mean,
we've talked about this, you know, to different extents. I
think Zoe's Seldana is an interesting case study for this
because her career is so dominated by these roles, but

(01:29:55):
I mean obviously worth mentioning. I found a piece published
in twenty nineteen in LATINX Spaces by Danielle Alexis Aurosco
that spoke to this war called race and Alien Face
the other worldly roles of Zoe Saldana that explore these

(01:30:16):
three franchises. Now we've covered all three of them, so
let me just pull the quote that I wanted to do.
So Zoe Seldona. She is Afro Latina, she has Puerto Rican,
Dominican and Haitian ancestry, and has spoken at length, especially
over time. I think her her career is fascinating, and

(01:30:38):
she is a person is fascinating because there's been a
clear noted evolution on how outspoken she has been or
has felt comfortable being about the ways in which she's typecast.
So there's one gigantic hiccup that we will discuss in
this but as far as and after Latina actor being

(01:31:01):
frequently coded as an alien, this is what this piece
had to say. Quote Cotton, what queer Chicana feminists Gloria A.
Saldua calls los intercitios Seldana seems to occupy a tense
position of in between this. While she can play strong
female characters individuals that are respected and revered by fans,

(01:31:25):
she is also subject to type cast roles that threaten
to fetishize her, capitalizing on her ethnic difference via her
performances of alien face roles in which she represents the
alien other. This is not to critique Seldona or strip
her of agency with regard to the roles she plays,
but rather to critically reflect upon the presence of Latina's

(01:31:45):
in mainstream media. And I mean, I think that that
puts it pretty succinctly. The piece argues that alien face,
specifically with Latina's, has an echo of minstrelsy within it.
We can link the full piece. I found it really instructive,
and it also quotes an interview that Zoe Saldana did

(01:32:08):
and I believe twenty eighteen with Porter magazine in which
she sort of talks about this directly and also mentions
that she began a production company called Besse, which the
whole purpose of it is to empower and uplift the
representation of Latin X people. So I just wanted to

(01:32:30):
also touch on really quickly what Zoie Seldana has had
to say about not specifically, as far as I can tell,
she has not addressed the alien facesness of it all,
which I would guess has to do with the fact
that she is still actively in the Avatar franchise for
the next one thousand years, So I don't know ifull
ever year, you know, until that franchise is concluded, how

(01:32:54):
her feelings about it have changed over time, which I
think is really interesting, because you know, Avatar began in
two thousand and nine. You have to imagine, and there
is a lot of evidence that Zoe Saldana's outspoken this
and views of this have changed every time. Sure, in
twenty eighteen, this is what she has to say about
typecasting in general, speaking about her early career specifically. Quote,

(01:33:16):
every time I read a script, even if it was
a period piece, I read it thinking that I was
going to go after the lead role. It wasn't until
I would come across the introduction of a supporting ethnic
role that I realized, oh, I wasn't even allowed to
try to get that main role because quote they want
to go traditional on the part Unquote. I would hang
up on that conversation from my agents thinking what about

(01:33:38):
me is non traditional. It was a very hard pill
to swallow in my country, where I pledged allegiance every
day since I was five, to be told when I'm
out there trying to pursue my American dream that I
was not a traditional American was very hurtful. I will
never accept that I am not a traditional anything. I
come from where I come from, I can't change that.

(01:33:59):
And you come from where you come from. But if
you tell me that where you come from is the
only right place and therefore I don't fit that traditional mold,
let's just establish very clearly that you are the one
who's wrong, because everything about me and where I come
from is just as right. Unquote hell yeah, hell yeah.
Now let's I want to acknowledge because I think that

(01:34:20):
this has been This was referenced in the Star Trek
episode that Zoias Aldanda also got into a lot of
hot water over a twenty sixteen biopic in which she
played Nina Simone, who is a dark skinned black woman,
and Zoie Seldanda is a light skinned black woman, And

(01:34:41):
so we've discussed this on the show as well. But
around the still dominant colorist casting techndencies of Hollywood, I
just wanted to also because it is something that she
it first defended doing and then later apologized for where

(01:35:04):
she was cast as Nina Simone, I think, more importantly
than anything else, Nina Simone's estate and her family objected
to this, so at that point, I don't see a
world in which you don't step out. Her casting was
announced in twenty twelve, and Nina Simone's daughter, Simone Kelly, said,

(01:35:24):
I love Zoe Saldana. We all love Zoe from Avatar
to Colombiana. I've seen those movies a few times, but
not every project is for everybody, and I know what
my mother would think. I just don't get it. And
the clear implication there being that their skin tones were
not the same and that it was speculated, if not confirmed,

(01:35:44):
that Zoe Selon's skin was darkened in order to play
Nina Simone, which was heavily criticized. Zoe Saldana was very
publicly defensive of this choice originally and then in twenty
twenty redacted this choice and said I should never have
played Nina. I should have done everything in my power

(01:36:07):
with the levers that I had ten years ago, which
was a different led Fridge, but it was leverage Nonetheless,
I should have done everything in my power to cast
a black woman to play an exceptionally perfect black woman.
Goes on to say, I thought back then that I
had the permission to play her because I was a
black woman, and I am, but it was Nina Simone,
and Nina had a life and she had a journey,

(01:36:29):
and that should have been and should be honored to
the most specific detail because she was a specifically detailed individual.
With that said, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I know
better today and I'm never going to do that again.
She's one of our giants, and someone else should step up,
someone should tell her story.

Speaker 3 (01:36:47):
Okay, well, growth sure.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
And I also think it is completely reasonable that Nina
Simone's family and a number.

Speaker 3 (01:36:55):
Of absolutely like outraged absurd.

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
And while that movie was happening, Zoe Seldona is also
dealing with being type cast as the other, as the alien,
and this is all happening at the same time. I
just I don't know, I'm interested. I hope someday that
she feels empowered or interested in speaking on that, because

(01:37:23):
it's I mean, as far as I'm concerned, and I
think as far as a lot of people are concerned.
It's a clear pattern intended to other black women and
and just people of color and genermy non white Yeah, yeah,
because Glenn Close is simply a white woman. And what
is what is that all about?

Speaker 3 (01:37:43):
Well, to speak a little more to that, So, like,
you know, as as we've discussed us, we're currently discussing
you know, actors of color often being cast to play
aliens in sci fi movies, or orcs or goblin or
anything like that, any like non human being in sci

(01:38:06):
fi and fantasy obviously has you know, very harmful connotations
when their skin is covered in makeup that you know,
makes them green or blue or purple any like out
of this world skin color. Not only does that erase
their darker skin and like denormalize darker skin, it also

(01:38:28):
means that those actors have to sit in makeup chairs
way longer than their white counterparts and not get paid
as much.

Speaker 1 (01:38:36):
Right because I read, and again it's like hard to
confirm salaries, I cannot one hundred percent say this is.
But from what I read, Zoe's Aldona, who had already
started Star Trek and Avatar, amongst other beloved movies, was
paid one hundred thousand dollars for Guardians one, where Chris
Pratt that, oh I really hope that isn't true. That

(01:38:56):
was what I was able to find. Again, it's very
hard to confirm, sala, whereas the speculated paycheck for Chris Pratt,
who to this point had not been in a huge
movie in a leading role, was paid one point five
million dollars when it's like, who is the proven talent here?
Who has to sit in a makeup chair three hours
before you even show up?

Speaker 3 (01:39:17):
Come on, yeah, I hope she got money on the
back end because this movie made three quarters of a
billion dollars and sure did. Hopefully her contract let her
make extra money. Now this might be controversial, but I,
at least in the context of this specific movie of
Guardians of the Galaxy, I am gonna stand in its

(01:39:40):
defense a little bit because even though, yes, you do
have Zoe Saldana in green makeup, Dave Bautista, who is mixed,
he's Greek and Filipino, He's also in makeup to make
his skin gray. Question mark. You know, so you have
actors color in these alien roles, in makeup that covers

(01:40:05):
up their natural skin tone, and you, like you mentioned,
you have Glenn Close just being able to present as
a white woman. You have you know, Chris Pratt being
able to present as a white human man. That said,
there are a lot of white actors such as Michael
Rooker who plays Yondu. You've got Karen Gillen who plays Nebula,

(01:40:27):
You've got Lee Pace who plays Ronan. These are all
blue characters. There are a number of white actors who
play people who are magenta. Josh Brolin is Thanos, He's purple. Meanwhile,
you've got Jamon Junsu, who is a black actor, is
seen in his actual skin color. So I would argue

(01:40:49):
that even though there is this pervasive problem of actors
of color being cast to play aliens or and often villains,
I feel like Guardians does just an equal opportunity because
you know, you see a bunch of different people from
a bunch of different planets, You see all these races,
all these skin colors, and it's just sort of like,

(01:41:12):
regardless of the race of the actor, you will see
them maybe in like purple skin totally, or you'll see
them in So I feel like Guardians is a good
example of the way to do sci fi like that.

Speaker 1 (01:41:25):
And also like Nebula, played by a white well yeah, yeah,
and you know, like I don't even know what's going
on on her face. There's it's a lot happened. It's
like a wallpapers multicultured. Yeah. Point well taken, I think that,
like it's just tricky. I mean, I guess it is
like not the sort of thing that one movie can
resolve is like removing sure years of coding. But I

(01:41:50):
agree that, like this movie does clearly attempt to equalize
the way that that is deployed, and I think that
that happens a lot in Star Trek as well, where
it is like an attempt to sort of dial back
or at least equal opportunity those situations. I just wish,
I mean, it would have been and this is like
maybe nitpicky, but it would have been nice to see

(01:42:10):
a black woman playing a black woman in this for sure,
which we don't see or really any woman of color
being allowed to be a woman of color. And I
feel like, because women of color are so so so marginalized,
and like I think in this franchise, most frequently in
main roles subjected to that it would have been cool.
But yeah, no, I totally see what you're saying, and

(01:42:33):
you're right. You're right, and they also think I would.
I would expect no less of James gunn and I
will continue to expect no less of James gun Brave
view to defend, and I just like want this Zoe's
Aldana interview someday in any case, also not for nothing,
I don't know if Zoe's Aldana's Besse initiative is still active,

(01:42:56):
because I it was mentioned significantly in twenty eighteen and
now the to the website is dead, so I'm not
totally sure if it worked out. But either way, I
just wanted to mention that that she was mentioning it
about five years ago, and I don't really know what
became of it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:13):
Interesting if you know.

Speaker 1 (01:43:15):
I would love to know. I hope that it was successful,
but couldn't find inhough.

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
The last thing I would like to discuss is neurodivergence
coding in sci fi. Yes, so it seems as though
Dras I would say, is probably the maybe most apparent example,
but the Drax is coded intentionally or not, but is

(01:43:41):
coded as being neurodivergent, specifically as being on the autism spectrum.
He is described as that like his people from his planet,
which I forget the name of it, but his people
take things completely literally. They don't understand metaphors, they don't

(01:44:02):
comprehend sarcasm, things like that. These are characteristics that some
people on the autism spectrum might experience to some degree
or relate to in some capacity. Also, Spock from Star
Trek is coded in a similar way, and I know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:18):
A lot of vulcans are very often come up in
that conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:44:21):
Yeah, yes, so it got me thinking about neurodivergent coding
in sci fi, especially because both of those characters of
Drax and Spock come from a like, quote unquote alien race,
which I think could potentially conflate being neurodivergent with being

(01:44:43):
you know, alien or other. This also happens with like
cyborg robot type characters. Basically many non human characters being
coded this way also obviously has like harmful implications. Now,
if people on the autism spectrum or another type of neurodivergence,

(01:45:03):
if they see a character like Spock or like Dras
and they feel seen and represented, like, I don't want
to take that away from them, right.

Speaker 1 (01:45:11):
And I know that there's a large number of people
who have and it feels like all these conversations we've
been having for years to be from what I could gather,
a stepping stone kind of character, right, because ideally we
could have a leading character who is on the spectrum,

(01:45:33):
a leading human character, even a human from Earth right
who is on the autism spectrum and is just as
loved and respected and on their own journey as whoever
else is with them from whatever alien planet. But yeah,
it seems from what I could gather, like Dracs resonated
with a lot of people. But again, like speaking to

(01:45:55):
your point, and it's like a different version of the
issue we have with go Mora's eracial coding, where it's
it's like, it's nice that there is a character and
that the character resonated with people, but also we are
ideally working towards a world where the representation doesn't need
to be you know, hidden under a million layers of

(01:46:18):
coding in order to be resonant.

Speaker 3 (01:46:20):
Right. It would also be way bigger of a problem
if there was exactly one alien or non human character
and that was the character totally coded as being neurodivergent.
Obviously that's not the case for Guardians or for Star Trek.
You see many different types of like just characters from
other planets who aren't coded that way. Yeah, so, but

(01:46:43):
it just I thought it was worth mentioning totally.

Speaker 1 (01:46:47):
It's it is like this whole movie just feels like
an interesting like cultural like we're getting somewhere, but there's
still a lot of the old shit around.

Speaker 3 (01:46:57):
On a similar topic, we see ableism in the form
of a character, a physically disabled character, their prosthetic leg
being taken from them because Rocket says he needs it
for a prison break. But then when Quill brings it
to him, Rocket's like, oh ha ha, I was just

(01:47:19):
kidding about that. I thought it would be funny. What
did he look like hopping around? So at first it
seems like this character's disability again, a character we don't
even know, we don't know their name, we'd never hear
them talk. Seems like their disability is going to be
used to further the plot in a pretty nefarious way,

(01:47:39):
and that they're like limb, their prosthetic limb will be
used as a prop. But then it turns out the
whole situation is just a joke, like it's played for
a joke. Rocket tries to do this later with another
character's prosthetic eye, and then this joke gets called back
to either in another installment of a Guardian's movie or

(01:48:00):
in an Avengers movie where Rockets always like stealing characters'
prosthetic limbs or eyeballs. Yeah, so I hated that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:13):
Yeah, it's it just yeah, it felt like a very again,
a very cheap dated joke that was like, for sure garbage.
The last thing, so, the last thing that I wanted
to touch on was the way that the character of
Ronan is characterized. I found weird. And there's a lot
of charged language in the way that he's described. He's

(01:48:35):
described as a terrorist, he's described as I mean, he's
just described it as like in every way and I
think in the Western world, and we can get more specifically,
get just like the US specifically of the way that
we describe other people defending themselves, right, because we find
out from Ronan at the beginning that he is a

(01:48:56):
bad he is the bad guy, right, like he has
destroyed there's no defense of his actions. But he's characterized
by saying to the Zandarians, like you wiped out my bloodline,
and that is never called into question by the Xanderians
as something that there was that there was any sort

(01:49:17):
of reparations owed to Ronan's people other than like, well,
we recently made a peace pact and you're like, well good,
but like that, I think that that's presented very It
just felt very us coded of like well, we don't
do that anymore, so stop yelling at us, and like
we need to vanquish you along with all of our

(01:49:37):
our country's original sins. And because the Creed are characterized
as an indigenous population within the world of Marvel, I
think that's just presented in this very unchallenging way of
indigenous people as inherently violent and coded as inherently violent.
And I think it's easy to miss because the character

(01:49:59):
of Ronan is so boring and so vaguely like I'm
bad blah blah blah. But I mean it's I'm I
am Alipe's lover. But he did say his inspiration for
the character of Ronan was Osama bin Laden, and there's
just so much coded into that statement that I don't

(01:50:21):
even really know where to start. It just feels like
there is a degree of just like clearly washed over,
like I don't know, oversimplified, which is what comic books
are for right, And I don't have the knowledge nor
the time to do a doctoral thesis on it. But
does the character run it and just him being presented

(01:50:43):
as an evil terrorist but also giving us the information
that he was a member of an indigenous population who
had been wiped out by the Zendarians, and then our
sympathies are very much with the Zendarians for the entire movie.
I just it rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah, I didn't.
I didn't like it same.

Speaker 3 (01:51:02):
Do you have anything else you'd like to discuss?

Speaker 1 (01:51:06):
No, I think does this movie past the Bechdel test?
Technically it does?

Speaker 3 (01:51:11):
Yeah, between Psycomora and Nebula bit little bit. Yeah. I
think passes a bit more in later installments as you
see more of the relationship between those two sisters. But yes,
it does pass. Yes, Wow, onto our perfect metric of
the nipple scale. I'm actually inclined to give this like

(01:51:34):
two nipples okay, which is high for us rating a
you know, blockbuster superhero action franchise, especially from twenty fourteen,
because while it still doesn't do a lot of things well,

(01:51:54):
I feel as though it's I think it's more respectful
of Zoe Seldona's character than Star Trek two thousand and nine.
Is it allows her to participate more. I would say
it generally like camera rized, cinematography wise respects Gomorra and

(01:52:15):
does not sexualize her.

Speaker 1 (01:52:16):
There is one shot, so it does a little bit. Yeah,
I think it does a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:52:20):
There's a couple. There's a few moments, like there's a
shot where she puts a gun in her holster and
for some reason it's like shot from a low angle
and like giving a pretty gazy shot of her butt.
Like There's a few fleeting moments like that. But generally
I think the camera respects her. I think this romantic
tension between her and Peter Quill is unnecessary. It's frustrating

(01:52:44):
that she has to be saved by him multiple times.
But it feels more kind of like stepping stony as
far as like her allowed to participate in the action.
Certainly more not quite so much the plot. But and
there is that moment that could have paid off of
like she knows how to exploit Ronan's weakness, but we

(01:53:06):
just never see that on screen. Yeah, there's some other
things that feel very dated about this movie, feel very
tropy about this movie. But I feel like it's doing
a little bit better. It does break the rule of
baldest women in charge because Nebula is the baldest, but
she's not in charge. True, so that's kind of fucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:53:27):
But I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:53:29):
I I'm gonna give this two nipples, which is still
a filling grade. I will give one to Zoe Saldana
and I will give one two. I'll give it to
Karen Gillen. Why not.

Speaker 1 (01:53:44):
Yeah, I'm going to give it one and a half.
I think maybe, I don't know. I think that this
movie is doing some things differently. I think that your
point about the equalizing of actors of all races being
alien coded is very well taken. And I was just
generally disappointed in this installment. And also I'm sure that

(01:54:05):
if I had seen all three, it may have like changed.
I felt a little bit to know that women have
increasing importance as the franchise goes on. But for this one,
I'm going to go one and a half. I just
feel like Gomorra is presented as a really dynamic and
cool character. She gets the decent amount of screen time
but doesn't have equal screen impact. And the and just

(01:54:26):
all the zoyas Helldyna stuff on top of you know,
three hours of makeup a day. If her paycheck really
was that small in comparison to Chris Pratt's you know,
we Riot, we take to the streets. So I'm going
to go one and a half and I'm going to
give one to the screenwriter of this movie who was

(01:54:47):
not allowed to continue to participate Nicole Pearlman or participated
in other stuff. Who knows, maybe she was working on
Captain Marvel by then. And I would give my other
half nipple to Zoe's Aldana slash Gomore.

Speaker 3 (01:55:00):
Nice And with that, folks, there it is.

Speaker 1 (01:55:03):
That's so Seldona in space and that's.

Speaker 3 (01:55:06):
Our unlocked Guardians of the Galaxy episode for your pleasure?

Speaker 1 (01:55:11):
Question are ripped for your pleasure?

Speaker 3 (01:55:14):
Yeah, And just a reminder listeners that if you live
in the Midwest, we'd love to see you at our
live shows in Indianapolis, Chicago, Madison, and Minneapolis. You can
grab those tickets at link Tree slash Bechdel Cast. Come
say hi, come see this show. We're excited to perform

(01:55:36):
for the first time in the Midwest and we'd love
to see you there.

Speaker 1 (01:55:41):
Bye bye.

Speaker 3 (01:55:45):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskresenski. Our logo and merch
is designed by Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to
Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

(01:56:08):
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