Harriet the Spy with Jenna Ushkowitz

Jamie the Spy and Caitlin the Spy chat with special guest Jenna Ushkowitz about Harriet the Spy, featuring a special segment with Vanessa Lee Chester (@vanessalchester on Instagram)!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the bec Del cast. The time
has come, the woman said to the other woman to
talk of many things, of shoes and ships and ceiling wax,

(00:24):
of cabbages and queens. Wow, Caitlyn, and why the sea
is boiling hot? And whether pigs have jeans to rhyme
with queens jeans? Oh, I was like, I was like,
is that a feminist thing? Jeans instead of wings? Rest
just needed to That's true, and that's you know, that's

(00:46):
my bad. Jeans are a prison for all genders. Um,
And so in that way, it's a very inclusive piece
of restrictive clothing. In conclusion, I liked your palm. Thank
you so much. Um. It is from today's movie. But
before we get there, Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast.
My name is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus,

(01:07):
and this is our feminist movie podcast where we examine
the representation of women in film, and we use something
called the Bechtel test. Jamie, what is that? Even? Well,
I think I remember. Here's what if memory serves, Here's
what it is. The Bechtel test is a media metric
invented by cartoonist Alice and Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel

(01:30):
Wallace test, that requires a piece of media do the following.
There has to be two female identifying characters with names
for our purposes, who speak to each other about something
other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more.
Most movies can't make it happen, absolutely can't. I just

(01:53):
watched that new movie with Chris Hemsworth on Netflix, and
I had to say, it doesn't pay and anything. It
doesn't pass the good movie test. It doesn't pass the
Bechtel test. It doesn't pass the I finished the movie test.
A lot of movies don't pass it. Which one is
that extraction? Extraction? More like I want to extract myself

(02:15):
out of this movie watching experience. I haven't seen it yet.
Um yeah, but today's movie. I feel like today's movie
will do okay on the Bechtel test. Not to not
to spoil it would be imagine how deeply got wrenchingly

(02:35):
disappointing it would be of this movie somehow did not
pass the Bechtel test, right, it would be devastating. Well,
we'recovering Harriet the Spy, and before we even introduce our guest,
who we are very excited to have on the show,
we wanted to jump to a quick conversation that we
had with a friend of the show. She played Janey
in the movie Harriet the Spy. It's Vanessa Lee Chester. Hi, Vanessa,

(02:58):
welcome back him so excited to be back. I honestly,
when I got Caitlin's email, I was like, what is
going on because I had just been thinking about you guys,
And I was like, yeah, you posted something on Instagram
and I was like, she's so fucking funny. And I
literally was like, I had such a great time chatting
with you guys, and all my friends who like listen
to the episode, we're like, this is such a fucking

(03:21):
legit show. And I was like, I know, right, And
so when you guys hit me up, I was like,
they like me, we love you, welcome back. I'm excited
so so recovering Harriett the Spy, and I guess we
just wanted to start by talking to you about, like
your experience on that movie. How do you how do

(03:41):
you remember that time and that shooting experience? Now, it
was fantastic. Like I can't speak for a lot of
other child actors, but I loved being on that set
so much. I feel like, of all the characters that
I've ever played, I feel like the most similar to Janie.
Like she's weird. She's very expressive in the way that

(04:03):
she dresses, and that denotes so much of her character.
She's passionate about science, which is something that you don't
see a lot in young women, and I'm obsessed. I
swear that Bill ny is my friend, but we've never met,
and it's just like in my mind, like Neil degrass
Tyson is my uncle and then his best friend is
Bill n I and we're just all this huge, great family. Um.

(04:27):
But yeah, Like working on that set was just so fantastic.
I feel like the story is just it's like everything
a precocious, curious kid wants to live out and then
getting a chance to actually bring it to the big
screen with such an honor. Like I loved every moment
of it. Yeah, I'm still like I'm still friends with everyone.

(04:48):
Like Greg and I talked, Yes, Greg is like my
boy like I he will have a special place in
my heart for the rest of my life. Yeah. And
then so now you're later what for you or just
based on you know, because I'm sure that people talk
to you about it, Uh fair amount? What is what
is the legacy of this movie sort of like become

(05:10):
over time? Um. I feel like that's a really difficult
question because I feel like there's something really special about
this movie, but it resonates in different ways for everyone.
I got a really sweet d M I want to
say at the end of last year from this lady
on Instagram. And I'm only saying her race because it's

(05:32):
relative to this it's important to the story. And she
happens to be white. And she was like, um, hey,
you know, I just wanted to reach out to you
and see if there was any way you could possibly
send me an autograph from my sister. She's adopted and
she happens to be black. And we used to watch
Harry at the Spy all the time when we were

(05:52):
little because we were like, Janey and Harriet are basically sisters,
and we looked at it like us like two little
girls who are you know, outcasts, but are complete grounded
and who they are, and I was like crying reading
the d M, you know, and I sent her like
I sent her an autograph copy of my DVD and
like a poster and I was like, this is for you,

(06:15):
your sister and your brother, because like you guys are
basically Janey, Harriet and Sports. Yeah. It was really sweet,
like we're friends on LinkedIn now. We're just so random
and like, do you think I actually have like a
dope job. I'm an actor trying to like be on
more movies. It always surprises me when I hear from

(06:35):
fans of Harriet the Spy and just how it resonated
for them. And I feel like a lot of girls
who I've heard some women from the LGBTQ community say that,
like I kind of felt like Harriet may have been
like the first lesbian that I've read about, you know,
And I was like, whoa, That's something that I've never
thought about. And I just think that that's cool that
like it's almost up for interpretation, but you can see

(06:58):
yourself in it regardless for the best. I love it.
Um A quick question I had because neither Jamie nor
I have read the book that the film was based
on and we were trying in our research to figure
out if the Janey character was specifically written as black,
and we couldn't find anything out about that. So we

(07:18):
were wondering if if you knew about that, or if
maybe the character was just written kind of ethnically ambiguous,
and they cast it's no, it's really interesting that you
brought that up. I'm glad that you said that, because
I was going to bring it up myself. Um, once
you guys asked me to do this, I st I
picked the book back up and I was like, I
need to like refresh myself and see what this is about.

(07:40):
And in I want to say, the second chapter, when
Harry is going back to school, they're describing all of
the kids and they described Janey and they're like, Janey
is a shy, meek girl with freckles and like doesn't
really like making eye contact with people. And I was like, WHOA.

(08:01):
I mean, freckles could be any race, but they're generally,
you know, associated with people who are going to be Caucasian.
And I was like, whoa, you know, and it kind
of made me think, like I feel like Janie might
have been white. But the director didn't want that, and
I remember auditioning and they were like, we want you
to be bold, and we want you to be like

(08:21):
charismatic and have a lot of confidence, and like I
loved it. I was like, she's wild, Like this is
the version of me that I wish I could bring
to school every day. But it seems as if Janey
in the book is actually a little bit more questions
herself a little bit, which I thought was an interesting adaptation.
Oh that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Janey in the movie definitely

(08:42):
feels like an aspirational like character, like you want to
be like her? Oh my gosh. I remember, like I
knew I was getting paid, but I didn't really care.
I was like, but how can I have Janey's entire wardrobe?
That's what we really need to talk about. Like I
get it, like I'm gonna go to college with this
money that I'm allegedly making. But what about those suspenders

(09:03):
that you guys made? I want those? Did you get
to keep anything? Um? I don't remember. To be honest,
I'm sure I did. And who knows? Justice for the
overalls I got to find them. They're like in some
type of like it's a wrap type of thrift store
in Burbank, and I just got to find them. Um,

(09:29):
do you have any other kind of final thoughts that
you want to share, any thoughts at all about your
experience being in the movie or just with the story itself,
for anything along those lines. Well, now that we're chatting,
I'm really excited to revisit the book and just read
it now that I'm older and like have a different
type of analytical eye, because you know, when I was younger,

(09:52):
I remember starting the book and just dropping it because
I was like, oh, like, I don't even want to
read the rest. I just want to get a notebook.
And I thought it is really funny because I was
actually in the movie. I had just finished shooting it,
and I went back to school with a notebook, And
I think it's really funny as an adult looking back
on Heat. How even though I knew that I had

(10:12):
filmed this entire spectacular movie, Like my imagination was so
sparked by what she was doing. All I wanted to
do was like run on roofs and spy on people.
And my mom was like, don't try that ship, do
not even try it. Like I went to school with
a notebook, Like basically pretending I was Harriet before the

(10:33):
movie came out. Like that's amazing. I had the same
experience where I saw the movie as a young child
and was obsessed with Harriet and her notebook spy gear,
and I just like I wanted to be Harriet. Yeah,
And that's what's so amazing about it, Like we all
wanted to be Harriet, you know, like it just there

(10:53):
was something so courageous about her, Like that's what we
all want to do, is like pretend we're older and
like that. The thing that I find to be very
endearing about Harriet is a lot of young kids, we
all feel like we're adults. Like I remember telling my
mom I could run the country, attend like I was
confident that I would be a better president than all
the people that I saw on TV. And maybe I

(11:16):
was right. I mean, are you wrong? I know I was,
like you're still out, who knows? Like I was a
pretty woke little nine year old whatever. But it's amazing
how mature Harry is. And like in the book, they
denote the parts that are specifically her writing in her
notebook with a different font, so you know that those
are her thoughts. And there's a part in the book

(11:38):
where Old Golly says to her, like you need to
write down everything. You don't need to like sugarcoat it,
write down things in the way that you see it,
you know. And as you guys remember the movie, like
her friends see the notebook and everyone loses it. And
I'm like, when I was little, I used to be like,
oh my god, Harriet's so mean, she's so messed up.
But like now that I'm older, like she's a child,

(12:01):
and children are amazing because they're so honest. Like she
wasn't actually trying to be malicious. She was just documenting
and writing down what she saw without trying to impress anyone,
because she didn't feel like her thoughts would be out
in the public. You know, I don't know, it's just
a thought that I had, No totally I have. I
have the same feeling. Yeah. Yeah, Like he's like Janey's

(12:23):
weird and might blow up the world. Yeah, if you
had a friend who was like always talking about blowing
up the world at ten, you might be a little
skeptical a little there. That That's why, I mean, that's
like part of what I really love about the movie,
like is that it makes like friendships with kids like
it takes their friendship seriously and they're like complicated, but
they're also like, yeah, of course a kid would say

(12:45):
that if they were I mean, and yeah, if they
didn't think anyone else would ever see it. So you
can feel for her but also be like you can't
do Janey like that. I mean, that's a really great point,
is like it definitely brings like a drama that's like
that's their world, and you know, we're sitting here, we're like,
you're in sixth grade, it'll be fine, but like sixth

(13:06):
grade is everything when you're in sixth grade, right, So yeah,
I love that point, Jamie, that's really legit. Well, Vanessa,
thank you so much for contributing, for giving your amazing
thoughts and firsthand experience of being in the movie. And
thank you for being in the movie. Yes, you guys

(13:27):
are so amazing. Thank you so much for inviting me back.
This has been such a great little piece of joy
during what we're all going through. Um being able to
discuss one of the projects that I've been in that
I absolutely adored being a part of, and I cannot
wait to hear this episode and how you guys break

(13:47):
it down because you guys kill it and I know
you're going to do with justice. Yes, thank you again,
and we'll have to have you back for like a
legitimate episode, like a full episode. Yeah, like don't don't
play me. I will stock you if you don't know
that it's all on. We've got it documented. We accept
the challenge. Love it all right. You guys are awesome

(14:10):
you to talk to you. Thank you so much, have
a good day. Yay, thanks again Vanessa for chatting with us.
And that brings us to our wonderful guest for today's episode.
She is a podcast host, a producer, and actress best
known from Glee. It's Jenna Ushkowitz. Hello, what's going on

(14:32):
you guys? So excited to be here. Oh, we're so
excited to have you. Love a good Quarantine record. You
know it? You know it. Oh yeah, it's a good
time to watch lots and lots of movies. It's true.
It's full on escape Zone. I love it. Right. Tell
us about your relationship and your history with Harriet the Spy. Well,

(14:56):
I loved Harriet the Spy. This is totally like we're
similar in age. Michelle Tractonberg and I and when this
came out, I was like, finally a girl who can
wear jeans and sneakers and doesn't have to wear dresses
all the time, and like somebody who kind of like
is wearing what I would want to wear. It. That's
the first thought I had when I when I saw
Harriet the really cool little yellow raincoat. And I started

(15:21):
acting when I was really really young, and I would
do voiceovers a lot, and I got a call to
do some looping, which is the background voices throughout the
film that they need to fill in like a playground
or at school or whatever. And so I went in
to do looping for Harriet the Spy. So in some
of these scenes, I'm actually like whispering, like especially in

(15:45):
the carry like blue paint scene, I whispered like into
the girl's ear and it was so cool, that's your voice.
And so I still get these like mini checks from
Paramount for ten cents um from Marry the Spot. Yeah,
every once in a while it'll be like sixty cents.
You're like we're going out and uh yeah. And Michelle

(16:10):
and I actually modeled together a lot growing up. We
were just, you know, we kind of like cross paths
a lot in the business so um. But I love
the film and I actually also loved it so much
that I got a note a marble notebook, and I
you know, duplicated the private on it and I wrote
all these like crazy things about my family in them.

(16:31):
And one day my walking my room, my mom's like
what is this. She's like what did she write? And
she's like, this movie is no good for you? And
I was it was like all made up stuff, but
she was like, I was like, you're reading my diary.
Parents have an interesting relationship with this movie because they're like,

(16:51):
I'm sure, I'm sure. That's such an amazing connection to
this movie. That's so cool. Yeah, your voice has a
press since life in the movie. Yeah. I very vividly
remember standing in like this big voiceover room and like booth.
It was a really big booth though, and the movie
was like in this on this massive screen on the

(17:14):
wall and they would just start and then you would
you have to play and like being a playground with
like other kids. It was like the most fun. That's
so cool. That's so fun, Jamie. What's your relationship with
the movie. I have a very complicated relationship with this
movie in that I was not allowed I was. I

(17:34):
was pretty I was like I was like three or
four when this movie came out, so I didn't see
it when it first came out. But I wasn't allowed
to watch it when I was little because I had
like I had. I was like a full on undiagnosed
o c D child, and so I took a notebook
literally everywhere, and I would get in trouble at school

(17:55):
about it because I did this thing from I first
remember doing it in First Raid. But I had this
like real child O c D fixation on writing down
when everyone in a room was wearing and saying for
no reason. Like it was unlike Harriet. I had no
end game. There was no objective or career goal attached

(18:17):
to my notebooks. But I just did it compulsively and
I would get in trouble for it all the time,
and people were like, this is this makes me uncomfortable.
Why should she keep writing down that I'm wearing a
yellow shirt? And so it was like such a chronicle
problem for me that my mom was like movie about
girl with notebook, we can't have it in the house, like,
so I didn't get to see it, and I'm so

(18:38):
bummed because now now that I've seen it, I'm like,
first of all, my mom was kind of right, and
it definitely would have made made my notebook problem a
million times worse and it was already pretty bad. Uh.
But second of all, it's such a good movie and
it's so like, I don't know, I just like I
love it in every single way. I love movies that

(18:59):
let kids be like complicated and kind of messy but
not fall into that like precocious child trope that is
so annoying. And I don't know, I don't think it's
so well done. I love like the direction style of it.
It seems like everyone in the movie is like having
the time of their life. And I just wish I

(19:21):
could have seen it when I was younger. But um,
I'll hand it to Jill. She was probably right not
to show it to me. Jim. Yeah, Jill being a
good parent, which, well, she's just like, I don't want
my kid to get bullied at school for her horse
notebooks anymore than she already is. Uh. What's your experience
with this movie, Caitlin. I did watch it when I

(19:42):
was a youth. I was deeply impacted by this movie,
But what I remember way more than the movie it'sself
was what I did in response to the movie. Like
I think I probably saw it maybe only once or twice.
It came out in nine I was ten, um, so
I was like kind of the exact right age for it.

(20:03):
But I think I saw it few enough times that
I don't remember what the story was at all. But again,
it impacted me so much that the movie made me
want to be a spy. I had my mom get
me a notebook just like Harriet's, one of those like
marble notebooks. I put together this little like kit of
spice stuff, anything I could get my hands on, which

(20:24):
was mostly just like a magnifying glass and like a pen.
But it was like, I'm going to be a spy.
And I started eating mayonnaise sandwiches because I didn't like tomato,
but so I didn't want to eat the tomato part
of the tomato and mayonnaise sandwiches that Harriet makes, but
I liked mayonnaise, so I would just eat just plain
mayonnaise sandwiches. I would do this thing where I would

(20:48):
slurp soup very obnoxiously and then say good soup like
Harriet does in the movie. Like I had I picked
up all these habits from the movie, but I rewatching
it to prep for this episode. I realized that I
had no idea what this movie was about. I like
had completely forgotten everything about the story. Um so, but again,

(21:10):
it really it really had a major impact on me
when I was a child. So that's it's it's iconic.
It really is. It had such a like it's so
interesting and had such an effect even though you didn't
even get to see it, Like it was really impactful
and like finally seeing a girl who's not so dainty

(21:31):
and like wanting to have a notebook to write things down,
Like I just I think it was impactful in like
a positive way, even though parents probably had a very
toward relationship with the film for their children. Um but
I feel the same way. I definitely made those sandwiches,
and I definitely like I felt very like I just

(21:54):
wanted to be her. I wanted to replicate her. I
wanted to be her. She made it really cool, like
she she was really cool. Totally. I feel like, yeah,
this is this movie is good representation for people who
double down on disgusting sandwiches, and I include myself in
that community of someone's like Yeah, this is the worst
food you could possibly eat every single day, and I'm

(22:17):
doing it proudly. You're like, all right. I mean it
also just speaks to and I'm sure we'll talk about
this a lot, but it just speaks for the need
for representation of movies about little girls like doing cool
things and doing things that like other little girls or
little children as viewers can aspire to, because there's just

(22:37):
isn't much of that still, and the fact that this
movie exists and was so impactful for so many people
just like speaks to that need. Yeah, and just being
like reflective of what a sixth grader's interests actually are,
because I feel like movies for like targeted at young
girls and and sometimes young young boys as well, is
like eleven year olds that are like there's a crush

(23:00):
narrative that's a it takes up a ton of real
estate that like, I don't know, there's so many like
sixth graders are weird and their interests are weird, and
their friendships are like intense, and I like that this
movie kind of reflects all of that for sure. Well,
should we talk about the story and then go from there?
I say, yes, Okay, couldn't hurt. Okay. So we meet Harriet.

(23:24):
That's Michelle Tratchenberg of course. Um. She is a young
girl who wants to be a writer. She learns everything
she can and she writes down everything she sees in
this private notebook that she always carries around. And that's
why she's a spy. She's a spy because she's gearing
up for a career as a writer. Um. We cut

(23:45):
to her at school. She and her best friends Sport
Gregory Smith and Janey of course, played by Vanessa Chester
who you just heard there in sixth grade, and Harriet
is nominated for class resident along with her arch nemesis
Marian Hawthorne. And the best perk of being class president

(24:06):
is being editor of the sixth grade newspaper, which is
a weird thing that was I was like, wow, what
a strange two powers to connect. It seems like the
president shouldn't edit the newspaper. Yeah, that would be like
if Donald Trump was like the head of all news.
Right now he's the head of some news. Yea. All

(24:28):
had to say, it seems like a conflict of interest
to me. I agree. Also, I don't know about like
your schools, but like We didn't have a sixth grade newspaper.
There was no journalism of any kind is for me. Yeah,
it was like high schools when school newspaper, right, okay,
just just making sure before that it's just all you

(24:48):
just trust what you hear over the loud speaker and
if that isn't a totalitarianactly. I was very envious of
those classes where you'd see, like they have the morning news,
where you got to be like a newscast, because I
would have totally been that girl, but like I didn't.
We didn't have that. Yeah, I didn't have that. We

(25:09):
had like a teenager that went to the principal's office
to do the announcements every day so the principle wouldn't
have to. We just had the principle outsourcing their job
to children. Rude. Yeah. Well, unfortunately for Harriet, Mary and
her enemy wins class president. Then after school, Harriet goes

(25:32):
off on her spy route. She spies on this guy
who has a bunch of cats, um, dozens of cats.
And now it's a great time to mention cats. Facts
with Caitlin. Cats have eight nipples and there were many cats.
I don't know how many cat nipples there were but
there's a lot. Anyway. I was counting my cat's nipples

(25:52):
the other day and I couldn't. I couldn't get to eight.
Some of them don't have that many. My fact is
actually spread because that's what Google told me. The one
time I looked it up. Fakeness canceled me. Cat Fax's
fakeness anyway. Okay, So Harriet's on her spy route. She's

(26:16):
looking at the guy with a bunch of cats, and
she spies on the Hong Fat family at their supermarket.
She spies on the delivery guy who she thinks is
stealing vegetables, and she's writing all of this down in
her notebook. Then we meet Harriet's nanny, Golly, played by
Rosie O'Donnell. She is a very important figure and mentor

(26:41):
in Harriet's life. She's like, she's a better parent than
Harriet's parents, Right, who are these kind of upper crusts
don't seem to spend a lot of time with Harry.
I think her dad is like a comedy screenwriter or something.
There's that exchange of dialogue where he's like, I'm the
funny man. I do the comedy. Do you other guys
are the money men. I like to think this is

(27:03):
commentary on how most male comedy writers are actually very
uptight and not funny at all. Yes, I agree, what
an interesting choice of job for this upper crust family. Right,
what were you writing on, sir? Yeah? Is he like

(27:24):
what show? Because this show kind of like, well, part
of what I love about the aesthetic of this movie
is like it could kind of happen basically whenever, Like
they do that cool thing where there's not any dated
tech really included in the story, so you can kind
of project it to be whenever. But yeah, I'm like,
what what if he was like, I'm a Seinfeld writer
and you're like, no, that canonically, what is he supposed

(27:49):
to be writing? That's really I was kind of thinking that, Yeah,
who knows. Anyway, one night, Golly invites a date over
and it turns out to be the vegetable Steeler guy
and they go out for dinner in a movie and
they're like getting back to Harriett's house and when they return,
Harriet's mom is super worried because she's like, where I
didn't know where Harriet was? So she fires Golly um

(28:12):
but then like immediately takes it back. But even so
this all transpires to Golly deciding to leave. She's like,
it's time for me to go. Harriet has grown up
enough now and I'm gonna peace out. Also, Harriet's mom
was being very unreasonable in that situation. Yes, like this
woman is raising your child for you. Can you chill? Yeah?

(28:36):
I mean, well, women be lashing out, so, you know,
good things. She has her comedy right, her husband to
keep her in check. It's like, what anyways here? His
parents are weird? Yeah they are. But Golly leaves and
her parting words to Harriet are you know, keep being

(28:59):
a by and keep writing. So she does. Um, she goes.
She does her normal spy root with the cat guy
and the hung fat market, and then she sees her
friend Sport struggling to pay for groceries, and she pretends
that he dropped a dollar outside so that she can
help pay for his groceries. And then she snoops around

(29:21):
Eartha Kit's house. What a treat? What a fun treat?
Because you hear Eartha Kit before you see her, and
so I was just like, no way, what what what?
And then she it's it's her, and it's just it's
clear that she was on set for five hours, and
then I was so what a treat? So happy to

(29:46):
see Oh yes, But it's at Eartha Kitts house that
Harriet gets caught, and good spies never get caught, so
she's super down on herself for having been caught. So
the next day, instead of doing her usual spy route,
she decides to play with her friends. She's like, I
don't deserve to be a spy. I'll do normal kids stuff.

(30:08):
So during a game of bumper tag, Harriet drops her
notebook and her nemesis, Maran Hawthorne picks it up and
starts reading it to a group of kids, and it
becomes clear that it's basically a burn book where Harriet
is just saying pretty mean stuff about all of her classmates,

(30:29):
including her best friends Janey and Sport. So now that
this is all out in the public, everyone hates her
and her friends ignore her, and the kids at school
are like passing around notes saying that Harriet smells. And
they build a clubhouse for catching spies and just a

(30:49):
it's a cool clubhouse. It's I want that clubhouse, right,
They duck tape it together. It's it's a it's built
the way that kids would build a clubhouse, and I
appreciated that. Then her parents are like, you're obsessed with
being a spy and it's not healthy, and they make
her give up her notebook. And then there's an incident

(31:11):
at school where Marian and her friend's dump blue paint
on her and she freaks out. She goes home, she
rips her notebook up. It's a very big fat liar.
Even though this movie came out before big fat liar.
I'm just like, oh, yeah, PAULIATI got blue painted too.
It happens. Oh yep, I haven't seen that. Why is
that a children's movie trope? Just getting dumped on by

(31:32):
blue paint by blue paint, blue paint? I don't know.
I don't know, alright, I think peace on it, please.
And then Harriet decides to get revenge on her classmates
for doing this, and she carves like a hit list
into her desk and she gets revenge by cutting off

(31:53):
a girl's ponytail. She ruins various school projects. She tells
Mary and that her dad doesn't of her. Pretty traumatic
things like that, very rebellious, very rebellious. Yeah, she's listen.
Harriet's a flawed character. It's true. We'll talk all about it.
And then there's like there's little moments too where like

(32:14):
I love Harriet so much, but I'm like, oh, yeah,
she's also a rich brat where sometimes she'll do things
where I'm just like, oh, you just like have so
much privilege you can't see. She lives in an enormous apartment,
really nice and the Upper East Side, but I mean,
I mean so much it boggles the mind. And it's

(32:35):
also such a cool movie house. It's rank controled you
guys there they pay seven a month to live there.
She inherited it from her grandma's grandma. Okay, it's like friends, right, right.
So her parents are like, oh, something's happening with our daughter.

(32:58):
She's really lashing out. So they take her to a
child psychologist. And this is when she's maybe starting to
realize that what she was writing in her notebook was
kind of nasty and it hurt people's feelings. So her
parents give her notebook back and Golly comes back for

(33:18):
a visit, and Golly is like, here's the thing. You
need to apologize, and you need to tell some white
lies because white lies are okay, and also maybe try
writing something other than notes. In your notebook. So then
Harriet goes to apologize to Jane and sport. They're still

(33:41):
sour at first, and then in class, Harriet suggests that
people besides just the class president should get to write
the school newspaper. So the kid with the purple socks
is like, yeah, I agree, and Harriet is a really
good writer. I nominate her to be the editor of
the newspaper. It's kind of incredible how much the kid

(34:04):
in the purple socks ends up coming through and having
narrative significance in right, and they don't see it coming,
don't see it coming. And this is someone who Harriet
said should hang themselves. It's really and he really gets
over it. He this is the thing piece I want.

(34:26):
The kid with the purple socks went home and was like,
you know what, sticks and stones may break my bones,
but good journalism is good journalism that he advocates for her.
He sure does. So everyone else is like, yeah, Harriet,
you're the new editor of the newspaper. So then she

(34:48):
writes a retraction, apologizing saying the things that she had
written before weren't fair. She was too quick to judge
people and jump to conclusions. And then The movie ends
with her class dancing around during their winter pageant, like
in a gravy boat. In a gravy boat, Harriet is

(35:09):
an onion. I think they're The costumes are pretty fun.
It reminded me so much of does anyone remember that
episode of Hey Arnold? Were their fruits in the play? Yes,
that's another like fun children's media troupe, like we got
to dress up the kids like food. People love it.
It's so good. Uh, And that's the story. So let's

(35:32):
take a quick break and then we will come right
back to discuss uh where where to begind um with Harry?
I mean, should we just start by by talking about Harriet?
I suppose so? Um. I think there's no better play.
The first thing I want to say, I think is

(35:54):
that because I didn't remember what the movie was about,
like my ten year old brain just comp really forgot.
I assumed that this story was going to be kind
of like a Nancy Drew type story, where like Harriet
would have to like solve a mystery because she's a
spine and she comes across a thing that she needs

(36:14):
to figure out. Interesting, But I think what happens in
this movie is way more realistic to what an eleven
year old girl would get involved in, rather than like
somehow being able to solve this like this mystery. So
I thought that was actually really cool because as I
was watching it, I was like, what's what's the missy?

(36:34):
When's the mystery going to happen? When are they going
to establish And I'm like, oh, wait a minute, that's
not what this movie is about. It's about her. Yeah.
I like that she like they make it clear that
she's like devoted to what she does and she is
good at it. But you're also like, but like what
is she doing? Which is how all of us when
we were eleven did things Like we were just like yeah,

(36:55):
this is important and this is cool, and then at
the end they're like, well what did you accomplish? You're
like nothing, nothing, I got into a fight with my mom.
Harriet is such a cool, complicated character. Where I was,
I was really like kind of like really impressed with
how this movie just like goes there with like parent

(37:16):
conflict and um, the like subtleties of like communicating that
Harriet's parents are like kind of have like failed her
in some ways and that there has to be a
conversation about how they have failed her in some ways
and how they just don't really understand her. And there's

(37:36):
like class stuff tackled in this movie where like Harriet
doesn't clear I mean clearly to demonstrate through how she
treats sports, like doesn't understand class really at all, um
and like has to learn that and she like fox up.
But it's still I don't know. Yeah, it's like the

(37:57):
movie tackles so many different things that are all like
stuff that affects kids, but it does it in a
way that is still appealing to kids. It's like it's incredible. Yeah,
they do a good job because it's it's Nickelodeon. I
think it was one of the first movies that Nickelodeon
had released, And I was reading about it because I
think it's interesting that the book by Louise fits You

(38:18):
is has been banned. It's on banned books lists for
different like school like children's libraries and school libraries and
things like that. Yeah, I don't remember ever seeing it
in a school library, which is like because it goes
back to the thing of like our you know, parents
probably have this weird toward relationship with the movie because
it's like the parents failing and they're not, you know,

(38:41):
failing their child and not being there for her. But
I like the idea of like the power of words,
like teaching the kids what the power that they have
with their what they say and what they think and
how they express it. I also was thinking about like
sweet little Gali Um and her relationship up. I love
that that relationship between the two ladies. But um, you know,

(39:04):
I was like, Oh, this is how I'll be able
to teach my kid about how to white light and
how that's okay. I was like, I'm gonna take that even.
I mean, like that scene is such a cool, like
big swing of like I don't know, like just like
that just shows how seriously the like writers of this
movie take their kid audience of like they don't doubt

(39:27):
that that will like, you know, resonate with them. Yeah.
I mean I think like the whole way through with Harriet,
like she is flawed. So I go back and forth
and like, am I supposed to be cheer like rooting
for her this whole time? Where am I supposed to
kind of I'm learning things as a thirty four year
old woman from Harriet Um. But you know, at the
end of the day, like with that sweet scene at

(39:50):
the end, it's like sometimes you have to lie, but
to yourself you must always tell the truth, Like that's it,
you know. So I think there were really really great
messages along the way for a nuggets for these kids
to actually take even though you know, our tenure o
brains were like I want to be a spy, you know.
And then but like having uh these like nonconformist women

(40:13):
at the helm of a film where you go like, oh,
I you know, the underrepresented is represented in a way.
I love her relationship with Golly. I think like her
relationship with Golly is so beautiful and cool, and I
feel like a really good model of like how adults

(40:33):
can treat children not with kid gloves and it can
be like a very like that that's just like how
you should treat a kid generally. Um. I love like
that scene where um, Golly like listens to Harriet, she
cares about her interests, she supports what Harriet's interested in,
and then also like does that cool thing where like

(40:56):
it's like an adult takes you seriously and then tries
to like spanned your knowledge where she like brought her
to see that movie about Mata Hari and she knows
about Josephine Baker and like all these female spies or yeah,
I think like Golly is such a cool character and
and the fact that we also get a little look

(41:17):
into her personal life and her interior life, because they
feel like in India's movies that mostly hang out in
like the upper crust class, the only poor characters you
see have no interior life that we're made aware of.
But it's like Golly has a life, and she has
interests and she and she advocates for herself when like

(41:40):
Harriet's mom, you know, like treats are like ship She's like, no,
I'm out of here. I don't I don't need to
put up with this. I also love the fem Fatale
uh movie theater. Like I was like, okay, yeah, because
they went to like a fem fatale like film festival,
right yeah, yeah yeah, and then they like saw think
it was a real movie that was like based on

(42:02):
like Mata Harris adventures. And I don't know, these were
like women that I wrote a like a report on
Mata Hari when I was a kid, like oh, spies,
but it's yeah, their relationship is great and it made
me cry when Colly left the first time. It's really

(42:22):
like maybe I'll travel. You know, You're just like I
want to go with Golly, right right. Some other things
that I like that we've already touched on, but like
I guess in terms of um, Harriet's friend group, so
you know, you you you heard what Vanessa had to say.

(42:43):
But the fact that, um, you know, Harriet's two friends
are Janey, who is a woman of color in STEM.
It's so rare to see little black girls doing science
on screen or having an interest in science in any media.
That that was really remarkable. And and it also doesn't

(43:05):
like make a big I feel like a big thing.
There is also just like normalizing it and not making
it this like big focal point. It's like, yeah, Janey
likes science. This is what she does, this is how
she acts, blah blah blah, and like it just is.
She's also has like a fascination with very destructive science.

(43:26):
She's like, I love the h bomb crowd, Manhattan Project,
Let's do it. And we're like, she's obsessed with laser
beams that would like disintegrate people. She'll work it out
in therapy later. Right, all these kids are in therapy, like,
oh yeah, yeah, Janey is awesome. And I was also, um,

(43:49):
kind of just based on other movies that we've covered
in like tropes that we've noticed over the years. Um,
I think I'm thinking of the craft where yeah, normally,
you know, in a movie where there's only one person
of color, and usually specifically a black character, you don't
get to see their home life or their home life

(44:10):
is kind of excluded from the narrative. And that again,
it's just like not the case for Janey, and it's
done in a very like just a normalized way of
like you see her mom, her mom's like stop blowing
things up, and you're like, all right, cool, there we are. Um,
you get a peek at the home life and and
like I guess to be fair, not in the same

(44:30):
amount of detail that we get for Harriet and for
Sport Um, but you do get to see her home life,
her relationship with her mom, and it's you know, it's
like a meaningful part of the story. And then I mean,
speaking of Sport, I also like that the movie normalizes
girls being friends with boys, because I think a lot

(44:51):
of media targeted to children would try to emphasize a
divide between girls and boys, and like how girls were
turning in to like a crushed narrative too. But they're
just you know, platonic friends. There's no indication, at least
in the movie that any of them have any you know,
little crush on anyone else. You know, they're busy, if

(45:14):
they're too busy being spies and you know, making spores
in their bedroom and stuff like that. And then with
with Sport, there is, like you said, Jamie, um, some
attention is drawn to class because you know, Harriet comes
from a well to do family, whereas Sport I mean
to say the least, I mean her dad, Larry David, Like,

(45:38):
how is a comedy writer having that house? Who knows? Yeah,
Sport comes from a poor family who his dad is
also a writer. But you know, there's that line where
Harriet says something like, my dad would call guys like
your dad a starving artist, get a real job. Yeah,
why want Harriet's dad staff sports Dad? If he's the

(46:02):
showrunner of Seinfeld, give Sports Dad a job on the show. Right,
But like, but if he's a shitty writer, um, that
could be it. Well, he does sell something for ten
dollars at the end, so that's true. That's that's something.
I like the sweet little scene where she climbs up
and she's spying on Sport and like she sees Sport
with his uh with his dad and they're running around

(46:24):
like with you know, having this like grand old time
with a chicken hat or whatever. That thing was. Um,
but yeah, I think it also shows that like happiness
comes in different forms and being fulfilled in a different way.
For children to kind of understand that, like that you
don't need money to have a happy family was also

(46:44):
like pretty pretty powerful, I thought for sure. I mean,
there's definitely an existing trope where children from poor families
or just poor families in general are miserable, and often
there's like this idea that like, oh, earns of a
poor family are abusive or negligent or you know any

(47:05):
any manner of like really negative stereotypes, and we don't
see that at all with Sports family. Well, I will
say just a little bit that like Sport, I guess
I think that sports Dad is kind of weirdly written
in some moments of like he's not a good parent.
He's not written to be a good parent, because like
Sport is the one who is like doing the cooking

(47:27):
and like buying groceries because his dad is depressed to
write his shitty book. So I feel like it is
not like entirely like I don't know a fair point
that yeah, I feel like I mean this, this movie
and this story goes out of the way to give
kids a lot of agency, but like Sport is literally
seems to be running the house and he's yeah tenor

(47:49):
a weaven, I mean, which does mean we see a
little boy doing a lot of like domestic chores, which
we never see the context of it. Though I don't know.
It doesn't like is I don't I mean, yeah, it
seems like he has, you know, a depressive parent, but

(48:10):
then it's like that thing where they're like, well, depressive
equals art, so best not to deal with it. So
I don't know. I was a little concerned for Sport
even when things started working out for the family, uh,
because I'm just like, are we does does sports still
have to cook tonight? Like? Can this dad learn how
to make a box of mac and cheese for his son? Please?

(48:34):
I was just worried about Sport. There there is an
exchange of dialogue that I thought was really powerful, and
I think would have been especially powerful to see if
I had remembered it as a child when I saw it.
But you know, Harriet says something like I hate money,
and Sport replies with, you'd like it a lot more
if you didn't have any, which is such a like,

(48:56):
you know, Harriet's coming from this really privileged place, so
of course, like she gets to hate money because money
doesn't a lack of money isn't affecting her, Like she
doesn't have to worry about that. She's never had to Yeah,
she's never had to really think about it. Um. One
of the things where I feel, okay, so Harriet. I
like that the that there is some like class diversity

(49:17):
in in this movie as well. And one of the
I think cool things that Harriet does as a little
rich New York kid um is that she gets to
go to therapy. And I was kind of like when
this scene came up, I was like, oh, you know,
it's like nineties six. You don't really know which way
this is going to go because I feel like, especially
during this time, there is still like significant stigma against

(49:42):
any kind of therapy, and you would sometimes see therapy
characters made out to be kind of like cookie and
like kind of like snake oil salesman, and you know,
they're like, how are you feeling, and they don't actually understand,
they're not actually listening. But I I really love the
direction that this movie takes it, which is that it

(50:02):
is helpful for Harriet, like and and the fact that
she went to therapy even though she herself was skeptical
of it, um ends up improved. I mean no, I
mean like really improving her parents understanding of her more
so than her understanding of herself. But I was happy
to see that therapy and like mental health stuff was

(50:26):
not made a joke of because I feel like that's
an easy joke that you kind of see a lot
in movies in the like nineties early two thousand's. Yeah,
I think you have a long way to go with
therapy still and mental health, even though we're moving in
a forward motion. But I I'm actually we're watching Sopranos
for the first time right now, where I think they're

(50:48):
doing a really wonderful job with the way in that world,
like you know, handling and approaching the topic of mental health.
But like they bring their son to you know, their
sons not paying attention. They think he has a d D.
He's going to get tested. It's like, I want to
see people go who don't have major overlaying issues, meaning

(51:09):
that like you have to go to therapy because just
because of that, Like I we always see kids being
brought to therapy because they're troubled, rather than just being
able to say, like therapy is okay for everybody, true,
you know, and it's ultimately in this case, it seems
like Harriet is being Part of the reason to Harriet
is being sent to therapy is because her parents are

(51:30):
not doing the work they need to do to understand,
like it's just as much of them, like they should
also be in therapy, and I hope that they are right. Right, Well,
the movie kind of frames the Gali leaving is the
catalyst for trauma. Yeah, it's it's it's Harriet's trauma, and
it's why she sort of lashes out and because like

(51:51):
what happens is that people find her notebook where she
has said all these you know, perhaps truthful but still
mean things about all of her classmates, and then they
retaliate against her because they're like, you can't say this
horrible stuff about us, that's mean, and they kind of
shun her, but she retaliates against them again for having

(52:15):
been really doubles down. She doubles down, and it's like,
but like, that's also a realistic thing that I think
a lot of eleven year olds would do. I honestly,
watching this, I'm like I anytime I see a movie
where kids like kind of act out in a funny way, like, oh,
I wish I was I wish I was like a
bolder child, and I like recognize at the time and like,

(52:36):
this really isn't going to have that much of an
effect on my life. I should just do some fucked
up weird stuff. She gets like there, she really doubles
down in a way I would not have been brave
enough to attempt as as an eleven year old. It's inspiring, yeah,
because I think maybe a movie that had a lesser
understanding of like children's behavior and psychology would just to

(53:00):
have it so that her book got found all of
her you know, mean notes were revealed, and then she
would just be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
Everyone better now. But like, no, that's not It spirals
out of control and I could like totally see myself
like me, I don't think I ever did anything quite
like that. But like you know, when you're a kid

(53:21):
and you don't know how to hold yourself accountable for
any misdeeds you did, you're gonna keep lashing out because
you just don't know how else to process anything. I
had a really embarrassing thing like not I mean not
as it wasn't a mean thing, but when I was
in fifth grade, I left an open document at the
computer lab saying that I was like trying to I

(53:43):
don't know anyway. My teacher was Mr Brewster, and I
had typed the words Mr Brewster hot, and it became
a thing that was you know, it was not an
easy time to have been the girl that typed Mr
Brewster hot, because I meant it as a question, not
as a statement, not that anyone would believe me. I
meant Mr Brewster HoTT, but the punctuation wasn't there, and

(54:09):
so and and and and I just doubled down in
saying that it was a question and not a statement,
which made the whole thing worse. And being a child
is a full full fledged nightmare. It's traumatic, you really,
I think about it all, like, even thinking about it
now just still puts a pit in my stomach of like, damn,

(54:30):
should have just pressed backspace, like it would have been
so easy. That's basically the plot of Love Simon. By
the way, I yes, I was. Uh, it's actually based
on me and Mr Brewster story. They licensed it from us. Incredible. Yeah,
let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

(54:50):
for more discussion and we're back. There are some as
as well as this movie does at exploring the intricacies
of what it's like to be an eleven year old
girl with abundant resources and um parents who don't seem

(55:14):
to be able to keep track of where their daughter
is most of the time because she's off doing spy
stuff and a New York version of New York that
is very safe, very safe, and quite white. Um, which
brings me to some of the issues that the movie has.
So one of her spy targets is the Hong Fat family,

(55:37):
and she says something like, oh, they have a son, Frankie.
He's cool American style, and then the parents are cool
Chinese style, and then she like makes a comment about
how the parents would rather have Frankie working in the
store selling milk and bread and lizards. So it's this

(55:58):
joke made at the expense of like this immigrant family
and like, oh, this thing they do that's unfamiliar to me,
it must be gross or it's weird, it's other does
not age well, especially because it's like there's no I
mean that's the end of there's no commentary. Like it's
just like there's so many things and it sucks because

(56:20):
I I wanted to believe better of this movie. Of
there are so many things in this movie that Harriet
is wrong about and then she learns that she's wrong
and get some perspective on it. And you would think
that this would be a great opportunity for you to
be like, no, you're like a rich little white girl.
You don't know what you're talking about here, Like, but

(56:41):
it just it never comes for this um storyline. No,
it does, unfortunately, not, does it not? UM. I was
also kind of bummed that, um, I don't even she
they give this character a name, but Marian's I guess,
like sidekick. Yes, her name is Rachel. Yeah. I don't

(57:03):
love how that character is treated as one of the
only like non white students that we get to know,
and that she's kind of like relegated to this sidekick role,
and I also felt, I mean, Marian's character in general,
I don't know how. I well, I guess I don't
know how. There's another weird class thing happening here because

(57:24):
we've got Sport who was very clearly from a low
income family. We've got Harriet who is rich, but then
Marian is even richer, and so she's the villain. It's
like it's right, and it's like, I don't know, I
know that like rich people technically have feelings that we're
supposed to really care about it, but it was just

(57:46):
that whole story a lote. I was just like, what
is this like? Because it's like I don't want to
It's just like a rich girl being mean to another
rich girl and then being like, actually I should have
thought more about the richer girl. And there you're just like,
I don't know, who care about any of this because
it's like demonizing extra extreme excessive wealth and marrying because

(58:10):
they like have her say these really goofy things like, oh,
horseback riding if you can afford it is a super
fun activity. And then her idea for like a fun
game that all the children can play is let's role
play buying a Volvo. You'll pretend to be the rich couple,
and you'll pretend to be the car salesman, and everyone's like, boo,

(58:33):
you're an idiot. Um, so it's like kind of hates her, like,
but then it's like, Harry, you're also rich, Like what
do you like? She's like, I guess slightly less rich
than Mary, and so Harry, it's like cool by everyone else.
I don't know, Like I ended up just kind of
shrugging because I'm just like, I don't I guess that

(58:55):
we're I made to an extent, we're supposed to like
just be like we love Harriet no matter what. But
it's like, yeah, Harriet, like check yourself a little bit here.
You're like you're in You're a three per center and
Marian's a one percent er. What's the fucking difference? Everyone
to relax. Also, during that scene where like all the

(59:16):
children are pitching games that they might play, someone says
something and then Harriet says, no, that's our word. She
says the R word, which, again a very nineties thing
to do, even a very like two thousand to some
degree two thousands tens things to be like that word

(59:37):
was being used very casually. It's still kicked around to
this day, to our infinite frustration. UM, yeah, I was.
That was I like jumped. I was like, no, no, there,
how did you get here? How did you get in here?
Can we talk about the queer reading of this story? Please?

(59:58):
So I was doing. I've been known to do a
little context corner myself every once in a while. Um,
not to step on your toes, Jamie, I know. I'm
so sorry. Don't worry, don't worry. But I was doing
some reading and um, full disclosure, I have not read
the book that this is adapted from. It was banned.

(01:00:19):
It was, it was, it was so the author, Louise
fitz Hugh, was a queer woman. The book has a
pretty substantial queer following the way, and I think it
has a lot to do with the way Harriet was
described in the book and just various actions and behaviors

(01:00:40):
of hers throughout the story. I wanted to read an
excerpt from an article that I found from The Guardian
entitled Harriet the Spy Helped Me come to terms with
my queer identity by Cat Patrick. Quote Harriet the Spy
blurred the lines between right and wrong in a way
that liberated my nine year old brain as a kid

(01:01:02):
who already felt left out by the mechanisms of femininity
that everyone around me seemed to adopt with ease. Harriet
was the blue denim baby Butch I needed among the
endless Balderina narratives. Back then, I didn't have the words
for what I felt fizzing through my inside, and even now,
fifteen years after coming out, I'm only just learning to

(01:01:23):
feel comfortable with how I present non binary Butch end quote.
I recommend reading this entire article because the writer goes
on to offer a queer reading on Harriet's spy route,
the idea of having to tell you know, little white
lies to survive, but also remaining true to yourself. All

(01:01:44):
of these themes that are explored. Queer listeners. Let us
know how the movie resonated with you and the book,
if you've read it, if you could get your hands
on one, if you can even get your hands on it.
I think, I mean, as far as the movie goes,
and we're we always want to know more about what
our our queer listeners think and what your read is.
But I think that like a strength of the movie

(01:02:07):
is that it doesn't force heterosexuality on its child characters,
like they're just being kids. There aren't like those constructs aren't.
There's no external pressure for that really coming from any direction,
which is very I didn't realize. I mean I didn't
even I was like so refreshed by it. Then I'm like, wow,
this really does happen in every other kid's movie because

(01:02:30):
it just like is it makes create so much room
in this story for interpretation and just doing other things,
um by by not taking up too much real estate
with like boy girl crushes, which is also just boring
and bad writing. Yes, um, I have some context stuff

(01:02:51):
on the production, please, yes, this movie there, I mean
I pretty much love all of it. Uh So this
was directed by a woman, A pretty young women as well.
I think she was like twenty eight or twenty nine
when she directed the movie. It was her first big production.
Her name's Bronwyn Hughes. Everything I've read about her love

(01:03:12):
She still is directing mostly like Prestige TV. Now. She
directed a Better Call Soul episode this year like She's
out here. But this was her first movie, and I
just was really interested in how she was able to
direct kids in a way that feels so organic. Because
Caitlin and I have like joked around before like the

(01:03:34):
way that some child actors are directed, it just does
them no favors. And the way that some child characters
are written does them no favors. But like here the
spy feels like this big outlier and so um I
wanted to learn more about her direction style, and everything
I read about her was that they were just like

(01:03:55):
she just had like the highest energy and she was
like dancing with the kids all day, and so like
takes what happened right after, like Michelle tracton Berg was
like dancing around and then Brown when used to be
like okay, now go, and that would like bring the
energy into the scene. So here's a quote from Michelle
Tractonburg about it. She says, I don't remember her not

(01:04:17):
dancing on set and music was always playing. It was
really cool and in terms of performance art, she was
pretty ahead of her time. It was also a great
way to direct children and keep things alive, and so
I I just I don't know. I ended up finding
a new director that I really want to see like
more of her work just based off of and even
like the pacing of it has like such a cool

(01:04:39):
like jazzy kind of pacing and some of the shots
you're like, oh, this is like kind of like art
school for for a kid's movie. I like it. Yeah,
thats just the colors, and like the tone of the
whole thing is like it's like a little quirky but
yet still like a little gritty at the same time,
like you had that New York grit to it. And

(01:05:00):
I agree. I just wanted to know more about her
because I thought she did like a fabulous job. And
it's really hard to direct kids. I mean, I'll tell you,
Like when I was a kid, they would always just
like there would be really good directors and really bad
um and I recently had to direct a child and
he's a bit younger, so that was even harder. But
like it's it's a it's a big mighty task to

(01:05:21):
take on. Yeah, and she just like kills it and
brilliant and you have to imagine that having a female
director on this movie made a big difference to and
just like how do we see the kids? And so
there's also two credited writers on this movie. One is
a man named Douglas Petrie who has done a ton

(01:05:42):
of mostly TV writing, but on shows with a pretty
good reputation for representing women. You have. He was like
a staff writer on Buffy the Vampire Slayer Forever, he
wrote an Angel, He's written a lot of well regarded
female comic book characters. I don't know about books don't
at me. Uh. And then the other writer is Teresa Rebec,

(01:06:05):
who is famous for she's like a legendary female mystery
writer and is known for writing like mysteries that have
like a feminist character at the center. So it seems
like they just really brought together a really solid team
of majority women to make this movie happen, and it's

(01:06:26):
it feels like a great example of like a great
product that you can get if you just kind of
get some at least some of the right people in
the room. I wonder how passionate they were and in
finding the director and finding bron Wyn, like, how passionate
they were about finding a female director for this film,
because I think it could have been completely different film

(01:06:48):
without a female director um and a per female perspective.
And like you know, nowadays there it's it's a requirement
for a lot of films, and so I I would
just be curious in that time you know, how much
of a stickler they wore for it, or if she
was just the right you know, like who was pushing
for it. It's interesting because I feel like, especially in

(01:07:10):
this era, like Nickelodeon has kind of a better track
record with how it's females characters are written and treated
than you know, if if you're going pound for pound
against Disney, which you know their history with women is
maybe not so great. I was also kind of surprised
that this movie was not particularly well reviewed. It was

(01:07:32):
not at the time, and and a lot of this
I will chalk up to, especially in the nineties, older
white male film critics being like but and see anything.
This wasn't for me, and then just kind of being
like Sia, but yeah, it seems like it was a
movie that was misjudged in its time as well, which

(01:07:53):
is which was just, I guess kind of strange to
me because I've truly never heard a bad word about
this movie. But for going back to the original reviews,
and I disagree with all of them, they're like, where's
the mystery? Like there, she didn't even solve a mystery.
I'm pissed. I had the same thought. Am I bad
you're double campbook. But in any case, it's it's definitely

(01:08:19):
I think a movie that's reputation has really like solidified
over time. Apparently it didn't in the moment. I mean,
it has to be a bit of a cult following, right,
like a little bit, and I I think totally those
weird you know that art feel that I think I
think you mentioned earlier. It's like some people get it
and some people don't. And the tone of this is

(01:08:41):
really quirky, um, a little off kilter. And I feel
like if you're if you know, you're not the blockbuster
that they're looking for or the mainstream, it's not going
to be well reviewed, but other people will get in. Yeah.
I feel like the core that the intended audience of
this movie got it, and like it wasn't written for

(01:09:02):
old guys and so they perhaps did not get it.
I also wanted to mention just because I'm like, this
is interesting, Teresa Rebec she wrote the screenplay for the
Halleberry Catwoman movie, and you're like, oh, my cinematic masterpiece, Catwoman. Yeah,
so you know, people contain multitudes. They sure do. Um.

(01:09:27):
I wanted to touch a little bit on some of
the adults in the movie one. I appreciate that the
teacher was not villainized the way that a lot of
kids movies will vitainize educators. She was maybe made to
seem a little oblivious, perhaps, but she wasn't this like

(01:09:47):
mean authoritarian teacher the way that a lot of again,
like kids movies will be like teacher bad um. And
I understand, like the kids perspective perspective, sure teachers suck
or sometimes they're hot. Something to consider hot question mark
or not question mark. The teacher also magically disappears after

(01:10:09):
cleaning up Harriet with the blue paint, which also gave
me a slight panic attack. I was like, everybody, get
off of her. She just disappears. Yeah, she's like, let's
clean Harriet up. And then you know, Marian's like spill
and then where's she? Where's the discipline? Um? But yeah,
that was just a quick little thing I had. And
then another quick, very quick moment in the movie, but

(01:10:32):
I appreciated this. It's after Harriet has tormented her entire
class and cut their hair off and strung a bra
up on the flagpole and like all this stuff. She
is at home and her parents come in and they
are trying to figure out, like what's happening, why did

(01:10:52):
she do this? And her dad comes in and he
says something like I used to mess around in school too.
He's like trying to make light of the situation, and
then her mom says something like you always do that,
you always make jokes, and then I have to come
in here and be the grumpy one, which like, it's
not what this movie is about at all. It's like
this tiny little moment that you would probably blanket you

(01:11:14):
miss it kind of thing, but I just appreciate that
small attempt to show that it is in a like
mother father household, it is often the mother who has
to bear the kind of emotional burden and the emotional
labor of like being the disciplinarian, whereas the dad gets
to be like, um, goofyld fun. I don't know how

(01:11:37):
to discipline my kids. It's not my job. I think
we talked about this a lot in the Mrs Doultfire episode,
and that's also true of I mean, every family show
I remember watching as a kid was like, you know,
shrewy mom that occasionally has a scene that's like, but
I love you, and then like goofy, Dad, Right, it's

(01:12:01):
cannon it maybe I remember my dad used to get
really mad about it. He's just like, I don't know,
I mean, it's not really a fair of like who cares.
But he was just like, not all dads are stupid.
I'm like, yeah, how does it feel to be negatively
portrayed in media? Dad? I just like just the mom

(01:12:23):
acknowledging that, and like acknowledging that frustration of like you
get to be the fun one and I have to
come in here and be the grumpy one. Like I
found that just to be a little, a little sliver
of something I enjoyed, just a nugget, just leave it there.
And and and I liked that you do get a
scene with Harriet and her mother where like Harriet, I
mean we we as an audience already know that Harriet's

(01:12:45):
parents are very flawed parents that don't really understand their
child because they haven't spent time with her and listened
to her, Like if they had spent the same kind
of time that Golly had, they would under have a
better understanding of her. And I like, I mean, it's
just like another shade of gray that this movie shows
you with, like how kids relate to people in their lives.

(01:13:07):
That I thought was really nice of like her mother
admitting that she was wrong and that she doesn't always
understand her daughter and that like that can be true
and she can be trying to be better, and you know,
you hope that moving moving forward that like, I don't know,
it's it's nice that Harriet got because Harriet dies does

(01:13:30):
like deserve an apology from for how her parents treat her,
and it would have been nice for it to come
from both parents. But I did like that mother daughter
scene where you even though I'm like this mom needs
to get it together, You're also like, well, okay, she
acknowledges that she, you know, has work to do and

(01:13:52):
that both parents have work to do. And I thought
it was handled, you know, pretty well. Yeah, for sure.
There's another one last little thing is the movie and
this is like hardly anything, but there are two different
scenes in the movie where the kids are watching like
you're developing bodies going through puberty. This is how it's

(01:14:13):
going to be, like really old videos, so they're like
from the sixties or something, um. And then like the
fact that Harriet pretty much body shames one of her
classmates for like, having grown boobs over the summer is
again not something that we admire or recommend children do,

(01:14:34):
but it is again just such a a realistic thing
because like you know, as young kids, their bodies are changing,
they're going through puberty. They don't know what's happening. They
if they see someone else going through puberty first they
think it's weird and gross. And like again, every basically
everything that Harriet does and her thoughts, well, some of

(01:14:55):
them are like pretty violent and I don't condone at all,
like the like the kid with the stocks should hang himself. Um,
that other girl someone should just kick her. Like those
obviously are not okay and there's no justification for them.
But other ones, I'm just like, of course you think that,
because that's such an eleven year old understanding of bodies

(01:15:15):
or of like socioeconomic class and you know, just different
things like that. So while some of them were quite
troubling and violent, other ones I'm like, I mean, I
don't like that she said this, but I understand because
it's super realistic. Yeah, it's like it's complicated, it is
coated with Harry at the spot. You know why that

(01:15:37):
just speaks to like it's so refreshing to see like
a complicated depiction of a little girl of any female ki.
I mean we like female characters are so often written
to be so flat and stock and stereotypical that it
is nice to I mean we talk about like women
should be allowed to be mediocre in movies, women should

(01:15:59):
be allowed to like funk up and make mistakes, and
like that's really most of what Harriet is doing is
like having to learn major life lessons, having to apologize
for various misdeeds things like that, and um, yeah, yeah,
I think it's it's actually very refreshing to get to
see like a little girl go through that arc. It's true,

(01:16:23):
this movie is fun. Yeah, kudis to the you know,
like Nickelodeon for because they're saying like age nine is
like the common sense age and like most would be
too pure, you know, and not allow any of these
issues to really come to the forefront of the film themselves.
Like yeah, I I really yeah, it's I'm like, it's
very hard to imagine like Disney and taking a female

(01:16:46):
protagonist this seriously, So I'm glad that Harriet was already
there for us. Does anyone else have any final thoughts
about the film. I think so. The last thing I
want to say is some anist icon Agatha k Plumber
a k A. Eartha Kid's character who we own she
SUPs to be like Agatha Chris. I was like, is

(01:17:09):
this an Agatha Christie reference? What is Eartha Kid doing
in there? I like, there, don't know, but one of
the few lines of dialogue she has is she's talking
on the phone with someone and she says, I have
the secret of life. You simply crawl into your bed
and never ever leave it again, which in the quarantine

(01:17:30):
is something that I have been doing, so thank you
for that. I get the k Plumber, I got, like, Hey,
I'm just like, I feel like it's an act because
especially because it's like a female mystery story, and like
this has to be some weird I get the Christie
at least reference. I'm guessing, Yeah, maybe Shrug does Harriet

(01:17:55):
the Spy past the Bechtel Test by any chance? Yeah?
All the time. Lots of different combinations of characters. Harriet
talks to Golly, to Janey, to her mom, to her teacher,
to marry In. Yeah, lots of different combinations of characters,
and they're taught. They're not talking about boys or men

(01:18:15):
hardly ever. And there's also non Harriet combos to like
Janey talks to her mom and Maryan talks to Rachel,
and there's Yeah, there's a lot of good this. This
handily pass the test. Absolutely. Let's rate it on her
Nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representation
of women. I would I would give this, I think

(01:18:37):
like a four. Um. I'll take some points off for
the very nineties punching down humor and language that we
see here and there, especially because I read that in
the book it's an Italian family that she spies on.
It's the De Santi family, UM. So the adaptation deliberately

(01:19:02):
changed it to the hung fat family, UM, and then
made Harriet be kind of racist. So you know, you
don't get a nipple for that. You don't get a
nipple for that. Also, just like I mean, even though
the movie does address class, it is still like and
here's this you know, wealthy white girl and her story

(01:19:22):
because that's the story that you know, we feel needs
to be told more than other people's stories. So, you know,
not not a perfect film or story, but I do
think it but much closer than most movies we've covered,
for sure. So I'll give it four nipples. I'll give
one to Janey, Okay, I'll give one to Janey the character,

(01:19:46):
and I'll give one to Vanessa Chester. Um, thanks again
so much to her for chatting with us and giving
her input. Um. I will give one to your voice,
Jenna that is present in the playgrounds or the you know,
the various scenes. Um. And I'll give one to Harriet. No. Actually,

(01:20:09):
I'm gonna give my fourth nipple to earth a Kit
and her um just wanting to stay in bed for
the rest of her life can relate. Yeah, I'm gonna
go with four nipples on this too. I think for
nine this movie does very well, but it still has
I mean, as we discussed, it has its shortcomings, it
has its dated nous, and it has, as most children's media,

(01:20:32):
a fixation on uh Rich White family above any other family.
It loses the nipple for that, But in terms of
creating a fleshed out, um not hyper sexualized female character
that makes mistakes that learned from those mistakes, maybe not
as mistakes, many mistakes as we would have liked, but

(01:20:54):
more than I expected to be honest. Yeah, just like
has a full life and is allowed a funk up
and learn and have interests that are not hyper feminine
and and eat mayonnaise sandwiches and ship like. It's all great,
um and and I do generally I like the small
class commentary. I mean, you know, probably could go a

(01:21:17):
little further, but it's a great movie. I really like it.
I feel like it. It super holds up in most ways.
So I'll give one nipple to Jenna's omniscient voice. I'll
give one nipple to Michelle Trachtenberg, one to Vanessa Chester,
and I'll complete earth the kids set, give her give

(01:21:39):
her another nip. Incredible, Jenna, what about you? Yeah, I
would give it for nipples. One nipple definitely does not
get given any any attention. Yeah, for you know, the
little uh I don't want to call them slip ups,
but the shortcomings with the you know, a socio economic

(01:22:00):
class and this young girl of really who has quite
a lot of privilege. But I do I do want
to say, like I I give the four for the
representation for kids and females to be specific, young girls
who like Harriet have sort of found their purpose in
the world in a way. Like as a writer and

(01:22:21):
it's just trying to figure out where it fits in
the world. And to have a kid who has purpose.
I think that's why we, you know, as kids related
to her at least I did as a young girl
who had a purpose to or I wanted her purpose
in that moment in time, and I think that was
not and it still is not represented enough um in media.

(01:22:42):
So I definitely give the nipples to Rosie, to Jake Cameron,
to Michelle and to Vanessa. Awesome, Jenna, thank you so
much for being here, for joining us today. Thanks for
having me so much fun to um break down the
Harry at the spot Absolutely what would you like to plug? Yeah,

(01:23:06):
I'm I'm mainly on Instagram at Jennashkowitz and my last
name is spelled U s h ko w I t Z. Yeah,
we have. I have a podcast called Showman Pysically Recap podcast.
You can find out where Refined Podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
um and podcast one. And uh yeah, that's that's pretty
much awesome. I didn't mention before, but I am a

(01:23:27):
Glee Stan I've seen all of Glee and I love
it all of it. I think you were the seasons.
Were there six? Oh yeah, I lied. I think I
only made it to five. I'm so sorry. So you
were part of the pretty good No no, no, that's
that was pretty good. Thank you. But it started long

(01:23:49):
before that. Oh that's awesome. Thank you so much. Well,
of course, I you can follow. You can follow us
on Twitter and Instagram. At betel Cast, you can subscribe
to our Patreon a k a. Matreon By going to
patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast and subscribing for five
dollars a month. You get to bonus episodes plus our

(01:24:12):
entire back catalog of bonus episodes. Hefty, uh, we and we.
You can get our merch at public dot com slash
the Bechtel Cast if you feel like we're in stuff.
And thank you for listening. Oh and thanks again to
Vanessa Chester for taking the time to talk to us.
Be sure to follow her on social media and go

(01:24:34):
back and listen to our episode with her on the
movie Book Smart. She's the best. Yeah. And with that,
the spy with social distancing, that's kind of what spying is.
It's true, it's just true. Observing people at a distance.
Spying is hot right now? He reasonal social distance sir,

(01:24:56):
that's right, all right, Bye bye bye