Heathers with Paige Weldon

Heather (Jamie Loftus) and Heather (Caitlin Durante) invite Heather (Paige Weldon) to chat about Heathers. How very!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doe Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism the patriarchy and best start
changing it with the Betel Cast. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.
Here we are again. We're talking about movies about girls.

(00:21):
My name is Jamie, my name is Caitlin. Here we are, here,
we are Thanks for tuning in. I don't think we've
ever introduced it that way before. That wasn't the right
way to do it well, or talk about girls in movies.
And sometimes they're treated real mean. Sometimes they are, sometimes
they're not. Usually though they are usually that they are,
but sometimes they get to wear a tank top and

(00:44):
you can see the shape of their nipples. This podcast
is inspired by the Bechtel Test. If you don't know
what it is, I'll try to say it really really fast. Sorry,
I yell, you're like clenching. I loves Yes, I am
like we're in a ludicrous video. Or I'm going to

(01:05):
reward myself with a swig of it as soon as
I do a very good job describing what The Bechdel
test is is a test that is applied to movies.
A thing will pass the test if there are two
women talking to each other about something other than a man.
I have to have names. Yes, Oh yeah, we change.
Actors have to have changed the rules. We used to
be like we're but then we're like, we're firm this rule.

(01:28):
Now we're firm all right here? That do you hear that?
This is the lid going on? God, you're so brave.
I do feel like we should maybe like just rehash
the date we went on over the weekend. Yes, really quick,
let's do that. Oh, you also have to tell your
bus story? Oh, because this is yes. And I also

(01:48):
wanted to say that I bought uh tickets to a
monster truck rally for just me on Saturday. I'm gonna
treat myself very nice. I never been to a monster
truck rally. Is it like for work or do you
have to write a piece on it or you just Yeah,
I had to get someone to pay. I want to
pay for it, but I was like, I could drive
to Anna. I'm not got the time. I'm going to
go see a monster truck rally. That's terrific. Yeah, I

(02:10):
think I'll probably get a new boyfriend there. He's like
that he's like a good place to scout. Yeah, but
we did go to a place in it where what
was in Korea Town okay, called Cafe Jack on Saturday night. Yes, yes,
I've been there. You've been there? Really? Oh? It is sorry? Okay?

(02:31):
Can we can we bring her guests into the discussion
because I would love to hear. Okay, So our guest
today is Paige Weld, and she's wonderful. She's a writer,
she's a comedian, and she's band a Cafe Jack. Yeah, hello,
thanks for being here. What's going on? You went to a
a Cafe Jack? Yeah, we did, because we did, uh
the Titanic episode last week, because you heard it was
about we didn't know. I did not know that part

(02:55):
about it. I thought it was like a swanky, cool
like lounge. E. It's none of those words describe what
it at all. It is. It's like even worse than
a dive. Somehow, were there other people there when you went?
There were very few other people there? Okay? Same? It

(03:15):
was Yeah, I think that there might have been people there,
but they also might have worked there. It wasn't clear.
I thought it was freezing in there. It was freezing.
There was one other group of diners there with us.
It's like an Asian fusion restaurant that's shaped like Titanic
and it there's a lot of laser jet printer pictures
from the Titanic movie framed around the restaurant. My favorite

(03:38):
part was they have if you're if, it's like an
intimate like we started in one of these intimate boots,
but it was like sticky everywhere, so we moved um
to a much greasier greasier but they're Leonardo. But they
had these little like rooms, those little weird compartments, and
then there was one of them where there was just

(03:59):
like an unfinished wall, it is just like drywall, and
then nailed to it was a poster for Curious George,
like the one that came out in two thousands six,
and it was framed and that was my favorite one.
I went there on a date because we heard there
was frozen yogurt. I have received a text that was
would you like to get from you on this at
this restaurant that shaped like a boat, And I was like,

(04:20):
I would love to. And then we got there and
we went into one of they like led us into
one of those rooms. It was like huge and there
was just two of us and we were very uncomfortable.
And then we moved out into another area and I
felt like the woman was upset that we did. But
there was no frozen yogurt and stuff. We got sushi.

(04:42):
Theories that they ordered sushi from a different restaurant and
bring it deep because the pictures did not line up.
We got the Titanic role and the Jack Rose role.
The Titanic role in the picture was blue. What we
ate was not blue. I could have also just been
like poor the printed menus. It was totally coloration. Really,

(05:04):
we would even be blue on a sushi roll. I
thought maybe sprinkles. Well, either way, we went on a
fun little date to Cafe Jack. We did. We had
a great time. Good date. Um, we are here to
talk about another movie that's not Titanic. Unfortunately, I just

(05:25):
wish we could talk about it for every episode we might.
There's more to be said. Uh yeah, there's a bunch
of things that I wanted to say and I didn't say.
But we'll get to that later on another Titanic episode.
For now, we are here with Page and we're talking
about the movie. Heathers. Yeah, so Paige tell us about like,

(05:48):
why why did you pick this movie? What it means
to you? When did you first see it? I picked
it because I've seen it like a zillion times. Is
one of my favorite movies in high school growing up.
I just always loved it and it was just one
of the first ones that came to mind. Yeah, when
so you first saw when you were in high school
maybe middle school? I was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, I
think I saw it first in like early high school,

(06:10):
and I remember thinking it was like the coolest movie ever.
I thought I had also seen it before, and then
I rewatched it and nothing was familiar about it at all,
Like part of me things that I might have seen
an episode of that cartoon I think it's called Recess
where they have all the different Ashley's, and I think

(06:30):
I was confusing that for the movie Heathers. It was
very different than I remembered like watching it. However, I
guess almost ten years later is like it was like
watching a totally different movie, and I didn't like it
as much this time. It's like it made me feel weird.
I don't know, but if I used to think it
was the dopest thing ever that I wanted to, you know,
in mouth. Yeah, I can kill my oppressors the whole day.

(06:53):
Christians later is very charming. Yes, he's terrifying. He is
so scary. Uh. And so when's the last time you
saw it? I probably would have watched it, like maybe
a couple of years ago, but I feel like I've
watched it so many times in my life. But I
don't think I ever really even had a chance to
get enough distance from it that i'd rewatch it and

(07:15):
feel differently. I just always felt that, right, this is
the best. Caitlin did not like, I don't like. Oh now,
I don't know, because I started rewatching it again and
I was like, you know, it's the first like half,
isn't I feel like it falls apart at a certain
point and then I have a really hard time connecting

(07:36):
with any of the characters, and by the end, like
no one is redeemable for me. But there are some
like specific things I like about it. For example, I
like that there's the running joke that any time someone
is like addressing a Heather, they all know exactly which
one she's talking about. Uh. I like that. I like
a few different lines of dialogue, like yeah, the dial

(08:00):
guess so fun. Has its own slang. Yeah, that's cool,
it'll be very very what just very? But you know
what they mean. Yeah, I know exactly what they mean.
I very know what they mean. Good job, thank you
you did it. One of my favorite lines of dialogue
is did you have a brain tumor? For breakfast? So fun?

(08:23):
So I like a few different like some of the
running jokes are good and fun, but overall, I think
my main problem with it is that I just don't
find any of the characters redeemable enough for me to
connect to the story, which I know is kind of
the point. Like everyone's terrible in this movie, and the

(08:43):
terrible see I think she is. And I know that
I'm probably wrong about this. And I took to Facebook
and I said, Hey, why people hated I was? And
I tried to pose the question sincerely, and I think
did not come off soundings sincere. But I was like, hey,
just curious, why do you like this movie? Idiots? Uh? Yeah,

(09:07):
I think that that was the part where you lost Um,
I know I left out the idiots part. I was
just like, why do you like this movie? And then
I think it probably sounded very snarky, and then everyone
got very mad. At me and they're like it's so brilliant. Well,
I don't think that Veronica is a bad person. She
just made me very sad a lot of the movie.

(09:29):
And I think that I think she's like not, she's
like dumb. She like there are so many parts of
this movie where it's like, Okay, this this script has
it's a very specific logic of how this world works.
But there were some times where I'm like this, this
girl is keeping an active diary of a number of melodies.

(09:50):
What an insane thing to do. She could not be
acting more guilty in school. Yeah, I think that's why
high school is the ideal time to watch it, because
you're like, I am also the dumb That's what I
would do too. And I feel like that's like that's
maybe why it's hard to like her, because she's a
stupid teenager. Yeah, it's someone who has Like when I
watched it in high school, I didn't think she was

(10:10):
dumb at all. I thought she was like awesome. It
was like, of course she's keeping a diary, yeah, want
not only that she's seeing these other these friends of
hers who are behaving horribly. They're like really mean, they're bullies.
Basically not. Oh my god. There are parts when I

(10:32):
think they're being mean to each other, but because I
don't have a very good understanding of how croquet works,
I'm like, I think they're being mean, but I don't
know how this. Hey, can I try the summery this time? Yeah?
Please do? Okay, okay, okay. So Heather's is a movie
about four friends, three Heathers. One Veronica. Veronica is our

(10:52):
pro tag She's she's not like the other girls. She's
brunette and uh she but she hangs out with them.
But she's isn't Shannon Darty. She's like technically like a
red she's auburn. Yeah, and she's also like the most beliemic.
Which that scene where when the writer makes she had

(11:15):
a Darty throw up, I almost wish we got to
see it. Anyways, Um, so they're like the most popular
girls in school. They they you know, own everybody. And
then Veronica meets Christians later don't remember his name, j
D j D of course, who is like pretty much
a standard uh nineties trench code killer who draws her

(11:37):
into a very toxic, weird relationship and they start to
kill everyone they don't like at the high school and
it's a metaphor for something. Yeah, when they're framing it
as suicides though, so they have to keep up this
idea that the people are murdering have actually committed suicide. Right.
There's one thing I thought was interesting, just to like,

(11:57):
for just jump right into the gender stuff, is that
the girls and boys at this high school are all
equally stupid, which is nice because it would be very
easy to be like, oh, like, you know, the heathers
are so vapid and and secure and all this stuff,
but like the the guys, like at any high school,
are just as bad, uh, and just express it in

(12:20):
different ways. So I liked that that was cool. Yeah,
everyone's dumb, everyone, including the adults. Yeah, the adults are
very dumb. They're those a few scenes where like the
faculty are meeting about what to do about these students suicides,
and the ones like let's just all hold hands and
sing about love, and then everyone else is like, shut up,

(12:40):
you're dumb, hippie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was that was weird.
The reason that I don't really like Veronica is that
she's seeing her friends display like this horrible behavior being
bullies and like the Martha Dunstock character. They're very mean
to her, and she sees this happening and you can
tell she is uncomfortable with it, but she still is

(13:02):
very like complicit in this behavior. And just like high schools,
school is that you decide who is going to give
you the most like social cachet. So like it reminds
me sort of sort of similar to like freaks and geeks,
like how Lindsay we Are starts hanging out with those
cool kids and stops talking to her friend and she

(13:23):
knows that, like she doesn't really know if it's like
the morally right thing to do. Obviously, this is a
more like cartoonish extreme version, but I get that of
like you have people maybe you're friends with when you're younger,
and you know that it's wrong to ditch them, but
you also desperately want to be cool, and being friends
with the Heather's allows Veronica to be cool and go

(13:46):
to college parties and do whatever she thinks she's supposed
to be doing to be like a cool kid. Yeah,
Like watching those scenes with Martha, those are like so
hard to watch because I don't know, like there is
definitely a time and my high school experience where I
could see myself doing that, and even though it's like

(14:06):
I don't think I'm a bad person, but I think that,
you know, if any I don't know, I just go
back and like, man, if Samantha Honeywell's approval was on
the line, I might be a real jackass to someone. Yeah,
and he might even regret it immediately, but you would
do it right right, because it's like the immediate social
survival or whatever. Um. Yeah, that that was hard to watch,

(14:29):
but I think it for me, it was like because
it was real. Yeah, it hurt my feelings. I don't know.
Maybe I'm just a wonderful person who's never been mean anyone.
That's definitely not true, but like I've been a dick

(14:51):
to people, but I don't. I still just despite what
I know about like people wanting to fit in and
be with the popular kids and do anything to to
elevate their social status, especially in high school, I just
couldn't find Veronica to be redeemable at all. And maybe
it's just because I hadn't seen it as a younger
person and like just watched it recently. But god, she's

(15:15):
supposed to be at sixteen or seventeen. Yeah, I think
they're juniors. I think, yeah, I don't know. I I
felt for Veronica. I mean, she's an idiot. She's the
dumbest at certain parts, like that when when j D is,
you know, convincing her to kill a second set of
people they've already killed Heather and he's like, no, but
this one is that these are German, but it's like

(15:37):
the first one. He also makes it look like he
was kidding and it was an accident too, right, it
does she really It's well, it's two things. That's one.
I think she probably at least partially knows that it's
it's real, but like it's allowing her to have like
an excuse like I didn't know. Yeah, I feel like

(16:00):
she does kind of play dumb because I think she
does potentially maybe want them dead, or at least she
said so in her diary. She's also doing the same
thing with j D that she does with the Heathers,
where it's just next day or like now, this is
what I think is cool, So I'm going to do
whatever this person wants so I can keep hanging out
with this person. And she does kind of hate them

(16:23):
all my friends. It's one of my favorite I don't
really like my friends. There's that, and right after the
first Heather dies, she's like, oh my god, I killed
my best friend, and Jad's like Andrew worst enemy, and
she's like same difference, drama. I don't know. I feel

(16:43):
like I was reading through my notes on the way
over here and I was like, oh, I was slowly
unraveling as I watched this movie, because I did watch
this movie in a bus station, so that the WiFi
in the bus station was great. Oh, but I didn't
have my I you know, you know, like you look
at something you wrote and you're like, oh, my butt

(17:05):
was really sore when I was writing this. Um so there.
I don't know, Like, this movie came out in nineteen eight,
and it's weird. I don't know. There's like, there were
a lot of parts of this movie that really like
made me feel terrible and dare I say trigger triggered?

(17:26):
I could see how many scenes in this movie would
be triggering. I hate using that word seriously, but I
think that might view then what was happening, because there's well,
it's like two things. This came out in eight eight,
and Christians Later is pretty much playing me. I dealized
school shooter, like the fucking crazy, full on wearing a
trench coat talking about you know this psychotic bullshit about

(17:51):
you know, society and why everyone should just be fucking
eradicated man whatever. And it's not anyone's fault, but it's
is weird to watch this movie and and see um
and like with the knowledge of how many similar things
happened in like the twenty years after that movie came out,

(18:12):
and like there were plenty of movies I feel like
that came out that were very like teenager destructive stuff
like that in like the eighties and nineties. But it
was just I don't know, like certain things that he
was saying. I was like, this feels like some Columbine ship,
Like it just didn't At the time, it was like
it's funny, but I didn't. I don't know, it was
just weird to think about. I well, the scenes that

(18:36):
I thought that you were maybe going to talk about
regarding being triggered, the multiple scenes where a man is
forcing himself on a woman and she's like violently fighting
back and he's just like very aggressively trying to kiss
her and or have sex with her. It happens I

(18:57):
think at least three times with like three different sounds
of characters. Um, that's see where Heather gives the blowjob
to impress the college boys. So sad, sad, and then
afterwards she like takes a drink of water and spits
it on the mirror and it's like, oh dude, uck. Yeah,
but that that one was dinner. I was just like, oh,

(19:18):
I'll be sad. I know she's going to die. I'm
having a really hard time processing this movie in terms
of like what we talk about on this podcast. Usually
so far the movies have been very like, oh, this
movie objectively treats the women bad, like there's pretty much
no question about it, or like this movie does a

(19:39):
pretty good job. This one. I like don't really know
how to what to say about it or how to
discuss it because part of me is like, Okay, it
boils down to this group of women who are very
terrible to each other. They're best friends, but they also
like hate each other and they bully each other. So
that's like not a fun thing to see on screen,
or like that's not a great way for women to

(20:00):
be portrayed, because that is a huge trope where women
are like women on women crime or hatred or violent
or just like meanness is like never great. But I
also think I'm missing the point when I watch this. Yeah,
it's shitty and everyone in this movie is mean, Like

(20:20):
I don't know. That didn't bother me too much, like
the and and I feel like I don't know, like
the scene where Heather goes down in the college boy,
like it's written so that we know that it's not
being endorsed, Like it looks wrong. Like nothing anyone does
in this movie is being endorsed as the right thing
to do, except maybe the ending that she cuts him

(20:41):
out of her life, and like which is out to Martha, Um,
oh my god when Martha speaks what happened? I guess
part of why I don't I mean, just like watching
so any like scene after scene, it's just hard to

(21:02):
watch of like people being horrible at each other. I
think it's just a big part of why I don't
like this movie, just because I don't like that type
of here's the fun thing they do a lot in
this movie that made me laugh constantly. When Veronica and
j D are about to kill someone, Uh, it's usually
in the dead to night, and they're always yelling like
kitchen someone they're about to murder. It happens like three

(21:24):
separate times, and one time it's a dream. But for
the most part they just walk in speaking at full volume, like,
so what should we do? Do you want to put
bleach in the coffee? What you want to do? And
they immediately like that genuinely maybe laugh. Also steampunk alert,
Oh I didn't notice, uh this, well, it's a reach.

(21:45):
But when note rider wears a monocle for a lot
of this movie, yes, that is pretty steam. This is
our this is our episode. Lee. Reminder that we do
not enduse steampunk or steampunk culture for yourself, Jamie, I
love it. We I told you about. Okay, So this
was actually the weekend when I saw this movie, when

(22:06):
I saw that steampunk demonstration taking place in San Francisco,
and I almost killed myself on the street. I was
so mad. I think I've already mentioned this in another episode.
But he was. The guy was wearing like a suede
vest and goggles and he had these accordion stilts. It
was horrifying. You did mention that. I know, I know,

(22:28):
but this was it was really bad. I've got picks.
I've got picks. But that was upsetting. It another trigger
I'm so trigger hashtag trigger, but I do I This
is a tough movie because you don't want to overthink
what is very clearly like a satire black so many
kind of thing. But I mean Veronic and j D's

(22:52):
relationship is insane, like the way that it unfold and
like how close it is to like real life abusive,
horrible relationships. Like there were some points in the movie
where because the guy who wrote this his name is
Daniel Waters, straight white man, uh, and he was pretty
young when he wrote it. He's like in his twenties,

(23:12):
to the point where I'm like, does he fully realize
like what he's doing? Like by there were certain lines
that you know, I was just like, oh my god,
Like it just is like a punch in the gut
where Christians later saying things like you'll be back and
and ship like that. What else is there? Oh where
he basically says like you knew or like deep down

(23:34):
what we were doing, which arguably could be true but
also could be an extremely high level gaslight move. Um.
Also upsetting is that you you realize that he's just
been doing this for like his entire adolescence. Just going
to different high schools, and that's why he's like, you'll
be back because he's probably done that to other girls
at other high schools right right. And it's like it's oh,

(23:56):
there's another allusion to that too, where when they're writing
the first us I note for Heather, he says something
and she's like, oh, that's good. Have you done this before?
And first the audience is like wow, but I don't know,
and then we're like, oh, yeah, he probably has well.
I think also a really interesting scene in the movie
that I've forgot about us when you you meet his
dad when she goes over to their house and you're like, fun,

(24:20):
straight up like mom, like that that is a weird reveal. Yeah,
oh yeah, you find out I think the next scene
where you meet him that he is like basically coming
in his pants about the demolition of a hotel that
he really wanted to be demolished, and he's like, we

(24:41):
got those bitches, and then he like shows a VHS
tape of the hotel falling over and he's like, oh,
this guy is also a crazy person, all right, which
is an interesting movie move to be like. Listen, Christians
later comes by this honestly, maybe give him a chance.
It's like, no, he's still terrible. But well, but that's

(25:02):
what makes the movie interesting is that you know, objectively,
you're obviously like, run away from this guy. But it
wouldn't be interesting if there were no intriguing qualities about
him that make her like keep going back for sure.
For instance, his dad is crazy and he is hot.
Sometimes that it also was a motorcycle, doesn't That's pretty crucial.
There's one line where he says all I need is

(25:24):
like tequila in my sax. I wrote that down because
I was like, if someone said that to me, I'd
be very wet, would come immediately, especially in high school,
would have really got me. Tequila in my sax. Come on.
He loves classical music, he's a great guy, weird, he's
not like the other boys. Well, and that's what like,

(25:44):
part of what divides her from her friends is that
they're all like he's weird, and she's like, yeah, that's cool.
You guys just don't get it. And he's poised as
being until he demonstrates these like very homicidal qualities part
way through the movie. Before then you're like, yeah, I
can totally see why she likes him. Think that if

(26:07):
she didn't meet j D, she would have just wrote
out the rest of high school being friends with the others,
I would imagine, So I don't know, I mean, I
could see her getting She seems pretty frustrated at the
beginning of the movie, but maybe she would have found
a less destructive She seems like so willing to go
with whoever's influence that if she met someone who was

(26:29):
like not a psychopath that she connected with, maybe things
would have turned out fine. But I seem like she's
kind of done with her friends at the beginning. I
don't know. Yeah, she was in a vulnerable place where
this guy showing up it was really easy to just
right like that could have been anyone, Like yeah, I mean,
the thing is, I feel like, you know, when you
watch high school movies or you think about high school

(26:49):
in general, you think about like the groups, like people
who actually did things as opposed to like I really
relate to Veronica because I like didn't I didn't do
anything in high school. I just was like a person.
So you're that's the person that's super easy to just
like latch onto different groups or people and make that
your personality. I think that that's a really interesting thing.

(27:11):
But I also I do think that if she didn't
meet j D, she probably would have just stayed friends
with them and been miserable until she graduated. Well, if
it's anything like the movie Mean Girls, which is basically
a two thousand's version of this movie, Uh, they're all juniors,
but when they become seniors, they're like, oh, we're better
than this now. I remember when we're not plastic. I

(27:34):
was like, you, guys, this is just Heathers. You guys
don't know. I thought it was very cool. There's another
movie that came out in between the two draw Breaker
that I feel like it's quite similar to us. Did
you see it? It's about a movie, a movie about
It's about a movie. How do you Talk again? Um?
And apparently already a little drunk from this Hennessey. It's about, uh,

(27:57):
this group of girlfriends who like pretend kidnapped their friend
and like put a jawbreaker in her mouth and like
tape it so that she doesn't talk because they're like
playing some trick on her or something. But it's all
very benign until she chokes on the jawbreaker and dies,
and then they'll have to figure out what to do
with her. Dude, I don't remember what happens after that,

(28:18):
because it's been a very long time since I've seen it.
Has anyone seen the Slenderman documentary yet? No, you gotta
watch it. We can't do a factel test episode on
it because it really happened. But it's about these two
twelve year old girls who are like, we believe in
Slenderman and they murder their friends. Oh, I know the

(28:39):
story and the name of Slenderman. It, you know, for
all its faults, it absolutely passes the vactel test, you know,
because there's a lot of police interviews or they're just
talking about the Slenderman murders. Slenderman as a man, but
is he a real man? Does a count of peas
of made up mythological man? I don't know. But I

(29:00):
didn't realize that young girls were horny for slender Man
and that's part of why they killed for him, which
I was like, that's a whole another level. And also
that all these murders tie back to a website called
Creepy Pasta. That's great that I like, I didn't know
that detail about him. I've seen the documentary twice. It's crazy.

(29:21):
It's very good. Um Anyways, Oh, I wanted to talk
about the guy who wrote the movie, um, because he
weirdly has not done a lot since. Um. Hen There's
was the first movie he ever wrote. He's written some
other stuff. The biggest it got was Batman Returns in
ninety two, and that is the one of the Tim

(29:42):
Burton ones. Yeah, which is one which I would like
to say is one degree removed from Joel Schumacher turned
another Batman movies. That's our Schumacher check for this episode.
I like how each episode we're piling on more and
more more ritual things. We got him at and Titanic
we got to mention. There's a lot of things. The

(30:05):
last thing he wrote and directed was in two thousand
fourteen and it was called Vampire, so sort of a
fault from Grace for our pal Dan Waters, which is
interesting because it's like there's such a specific movie and
like the way it's written, it almost seems like he
could have had like a John Hughesy kind of career

(30:27):
where it's like, oh, this is the guy that writes
the subversive teens dark comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and but
you know, and then the endgame is Vampire Academy, which,
you know, maybe I shouldn't be talking. Maybe it's an
amazing film. It could be here. Here's the thing, it
most likely is not. Okay, well there wasn't a point

(30:50):
to that. But except for I don't know, I'm always
like a little bit leary of a straight white guy
writing a movie about young women. UM, for sure, just
because it's so easy to conflict fact fact in fiction.
If you're returning to you know, the horny ist, most
horrible part of your life, uh, and then trying to

(31:10):
put yourself in the mind of the people you wanted
to have sex with. Um, it just seems like a
real challenge. But I I don't know, how did you feel?
I mean, I felt like he did. I don't know.
Like this movie is hard. It's very hard to talk
about in this context. It is. I am also very
wary of any like straight man who thinks that they

(31:34):
can I mean, most of the main characters in this
movie are women. I'm raising my hands because I found
out something crazy. Tell Us Daniel Waters wrote Heathers. His
brother Mark Waters directed Mean Girls in two thousand four.
What the hell that's so weird? He also directed Freaky Friday,

(31:55):
So he's just a low hand head wild There you go, guys.
I mean I don't feel like to me, I don't
think that the characters feel poorly written because they're written,
especially because it's like, I mean, they're not really like
women their children. Yeah, well they're also caricatures. And it's

(32:20):
not just the women that are caricatures, it's everyone in
a movie, right, And I think that that's why it
ends up not really being a problem, because it's not
like a deeply honest depiction of literally anyone. I think
he sort of ends up being fine, although I will
say if you look at a picture of him, now,
crazy come over, insane, like who are you getting? That's

(32:42):
very unfortunately, very bad Daniels, very very long. Yeah, not
worth it. Oh boy. Oh there's a bunch of really
fun Yellie thesis statement kind of dialogue lines, and towards
the end of this movie is every other thing Christians
later says is like, Okay, we get it, like you're
you're a fucking angry young man. The society not to

(33:06):
any horror the American teenager thinks to bring upon itself
like grow up and uh what else like because the
school is society and like that how everything is a
fucking metaphor for It's it's very tenth grade English, the
way he interprets the world and why I'm like, this
is not a fucking Joyce Carol out short story, you

(33:29):
nut bag. But I love them that. It's it's him
saying all this ship to a girl who's just looking
at him like he's a fucking idiot. Like like, if
he was just saying that and we were just watching it,
it would be like, maybe not great. But when it's
posed like that where Veronica is just looking at him,
like realizing that he has been this idiot the whole time,

(33:51):
it's is pretty powerful. What's the line? The line what
do I you know what I need? JD? Cool guys
like you out of my life or whatever? This is
just I love that. I love the like, yeah, you're
a real cool guy. Dude, Like he knows about convenience
store snacks. That's like what gets Veronica to like him.
She's like, you know your convenience stores speech because he's

(34:15):
been a lot of places. Yeah, that's like a like
his motorcycle. He's a little riff raff, straight rat. I
like it like he um, no, yeah, I got convenience
Sturf food on my way over here. Guys, when I
was getting my card lemonade and stopped at silver Lake

(34:36):
seven eleven, did they know me there? And I got
I ordered pizza so bad they didn't make me pay
for it, like disgusting, and it was disgusting, And he
was like, on the house, take it, congratulations, you look
like you really need I need. It's like you look hungry,
my friends. Going back to the relationship that Veronica and

(34:59):
j D have, the way it starts is that like
he just crawls into her window having met her. I
think prince from a fairy tale. I was like, okay,
I would have loved that. I would have left that.
You know, when you're a teenager, nothing is cooler than
sneaking through a window. They do it in Gilmore Girl.

(35:20):
I think I had a very different high school experience
than most people than Gilmore Girls. And also my parents
didn't dislike any of my high school boyfriends, so there
was no there was no window climbing. Also, we didn't
have doors in my house for some reason, so window
climbing would not have gone well. But you didn't have doors.
There were no doors. I mean there was a front

(35:40):
door and a back door, but no one's bedrooms had doors,
even like doors to your bedrooms, there was like no
door open bathrooms, no doors bathrooms. There were doors, but
they were broken. You had to jam something up against them.
That is crazy, I know, especially because when my little
brother did learn how to masturbate, he did not exercise
is any discretion in spite of the fact that there

(36:02):
were no doors, So he would just be going at
it and you'd walk past. And that was a hard
summer for me, like my first summer back from college
and my brother had hit puberty. Why were there doors
in your house? There were no doors. I don't know.
I don't there's to this day, there's no doors. Wow,
there was no I mean my parents weren't fucking so

(36:23):
there were no doors. I don't know. I'm baffled. I
don't know if anyone's ever had sex in my house. Um,
I mean I started to like pause to think about it.
I'm like, why would I know the Actually, Okay, i'd
a house, Jamie, I've gotten to I met your mom.
I was like, hey, wait, what's her name again? Jill?
I was like, hey, Jill, do you mind if I

(36:44):
come over and hang out. I didn't have sex with
your mom, but I brought someone else sex with someone,
and she did walk in on us because there were
no doors. But well I got walked in on once
in my house. My brother almost caught me like trying
to lose my virginity, and obviously we had to stop,
and then he threw up. He was so upset. It

(37:09):
was just no more running card, no more Runnington parties
for you know, if my brother was used like, I
just wanted to root here and then he threw up
on the floor. I know, it's like, that's a little dramatic, Jamie,
this isn't insane. I need to talk to your parents
about whether or no doors to bedrooms. We were like
in my living room because it didn't matter there were

(37:30):
no doors. Trying to lose your riginity anywhere and you
already equal risk. Oh anyway, so he crowls through a
door and they have they play strip croquet. I don't
know why croquet is such again, it's probably another like
maybe it's just a mote for me clueless. Yeah, yeah,

(37:51):
I don't know what. Yeah, that's just like a thing
that popular girls did it seems to exist in a
very specific period of movies. Yeah. I certainly didn't relate
to the croquet spect Yeah, but it seemed to go
with their jackets. It totally worked with their outfits. It
did color coordinate. That was what most of their decisions
were based on. Is what whatever whatever one with her outfits? Um,

(38:14):
all right, what else do we say about this? Though?
I don't even know if I have anything else to
say about it, just that he It was just jarring
to me that he He's introduced as this like cool
subversive guy who's like gonna take her out of this
click that she's in and she doesn't have to be
with these horrible heathers anymore. And then that's not where
the story goes at all. He helps smart, helps her

(38:37):
murder people that she doesn't like. I do like that
the weird rape jot guys um get murdered because I
feel like they had it coming. I like that too.
And we got to talk about I love my dad
gay son. That's a great line. How beautiful that the
dad accepts him. Yeah, that was a fun one. I

(39:00):
like the nerd who spits out milk, and almost every
scene that he's in remember that guy there, you see
it once whenever, like the main Heather, the red Heather.
I'm going to call her the red I don't know
their last names. Shannon, that's shand Alardy No, that's uh no,
there not the red head wear, the red wearing alf

(39:23):
the one that dies. Yes, yes, she wouldn't have done that.
She looks at this nerd guy and then they make
contact and he spits out all this milk and then
it happens again later on. I forget what prompts him
that time, but he um just spews milk everywhere. Was
anyone else like really surprised In the first scene Christian

(39:44):
Slaters in where you like fall in love with him
in a very short amount of time and then he
has a gun. Yeah, She's like, whoa this guy? He
just said like all I need is tequila in my sacks.
I'm like, I'm ready to marry him. And then he
pulls out a gun and shoots two people, presumably dead,
until the next scene when they're like, oh, he used

(40:04):
blanks and that's why she's always like, oh, he probably
always used blanks. Yeah, I guess I got it. I
got it. I think there's just too many moments like
that where my my disbelief cannot be suspended. I think
that's another problem why I just like, there are things
about this movie I like, but I can't like it
as a whole because of those few reasons, the characters,

(40:28):
and then like, there's so many things I can't suspend
my disbelief for. And yeah, it's a satire, it's a
dark comedy, it's not meant to be taken so seriously,
but I can't. I still don't enjoy watching it. I
think it's also tough if you are watching it for
the first time. Now, yes, and my own as woman.
It's one of those things that, like she says, I

(40:52):
think there are certain things that you grow up with
that you hesitate to always fully recommend to people because
you're like, well, I have a very specific like I
think about, like I loved I also loved the movie
ghost World, and so I always love that movie. But
I don't know if I would be like, you have
to see ghost World, where even though I love it's
like how I you know, I love supe Plantation, but

(41:13):
I don't expect anyone else too. It's just because I
grew up with it, you know, Well, this movie is
such like a cult. But also I think that's as good. Yeah,
but I think it it's sort of like Okay, it's like, um,
like I don't really feel affected when I watched Monty
Python because I never was like a teenage boy who
watched it. I'll never feel like I've got a big

(41:34):
old herd on for Monty Python the Holy Grail. Yeah,
I just never watched it growing up, so I don't
feel anything for it now. Like I'm like, I can
see objectively like this is a value, but I don't
connect to it. I feel that way about Pepe's Playhous
And then I'm like, I'm not going to make you
watch Pepe's Playhouse, but like you should watch it. I
tried to launch. I got thirty seconds into it and

(41:57):
had to shut it off. His voice is so grating
about friends. You just you just couldn't be more wrong.
But it's you're my friend. I mean, yeah, we all
have movies that we like. I mean, I like the
movie Stomp the Yard. Is it a good movie? But

(42:22):
there are movies that like if like, I'm not mad
at you for not liking Heathers. There are movies that
I'd be like, what the funk is wrong with you? Yeah,
I guess what others. It depends on, like what point
in your life it arrived to you. I also think
when I took to the internet and most people were
slaughtering me, a lot of people were like, okay, I

(42:42):
can see it. Like the time that it came out,
it was sort of the first movie if it's kind
like there hadn't really been a dark teen comedy like that,
Like they don't others that you can point to afterwards.
That's something I was thinking about, how you said that
he didn't really make anything else afterwards. I wonder if
people we're not interested and more well, I think like

(43:06):
we said kind of alluded to before, like mean Girls
and job Breakers were influenced by Heathers. I imagine I
Mean Girls is like in so many ways a copy
of Heathers. Yeah. Just okay, wait, I'm looking for this
status you made about Heathers because I would really okay,
this is you. I'm sorry. I was about to Can
someone explain the movie Heathers to me? Why do people

(43:29):
like it? Is there an extended metaphor that I'm missing?
There's Okay, that's probably how people read it. Here's how
I meant it. That's how I interpreted it. I think
that's how everyone entered. I did not like or comment
it makes sense. I'm usually like very mean and snarky
on my Facebook posts. But the way I actually intended

(43:51):
it was, Hey, guys, friends, can so you meant it
like I'm sorry to bother you? But why do people
like it? Is there an extended metaphor missing? Exactly? That's
not happy? Can you want? Someone explained them. That's honestly, wow?

(44:11):
Is it got oh? How many? Just one? Just the one?
But one while eighteen or nineteen likes, which honestly some
people well, some people were on board with you, slater sucks, uh,
said one person. Some one person said the musical is fun?
Did another was some musical? There's one really probably didn't

(44:32):
need to be. But there was no need to write
multiple paragraphs about this movie. I will say. Someone said,
you're wrong and you're being awful about it. Oh my god,
because their name had there No, it was a man.
It was a Boston comic who Oh well, I guarantee

(44:52):
I could beat him up and kill him musing only
my hands and make it look like a suicide exactly.
All starcull bade be Um, I don't know. Lots of
people seem to People say it's funny, it's funny. I
laughed at moments there at three likes. It's funny, it's funny.
There's good dialogue. Is it sloppily written? Yeah, yeah it is.

(45:15):
I would have taken another pass to the screenplay. That's
just me. Oh can I read something else he wrote?
But like in the way I interpreted it. Okay, So,
a very nice, straight white man who we both know
a great guy, wrote out a very measured explanation of
why he felt people liked Heather, and then you said,

(45:37):
I mainly don't like it because for me, there isn't
a single likable or redeemable, redeemable character in the whole movie.
Like maybe that's the point, and it's like, Caitlin, calm down.
This comment has no likes. Yeah, people really did not
care from you keep going. I don't like most modern comedies.

(46:03):
I do appreciate that this movie is dark and more
subversive than most key cutter modity. This is fun. I
do sound like a no. If you read anyone's Facebook
comment that way, it would be fun. I'm going to
start doing that just to keep myself honest about my
thoughts and feelings. Yeah, reading that voice before you post it.

(46:23):
Something I've had fun doing is reading Bible versus really
sarcastically like they're super still, like reading psalms like, um,
if you start any psalm with um, actually, I've take
on a whole new meeting. Cool. Well, do you guys
think ultimately that it does pass? Definitely passed, almost the

(46:44):
first scene with all the heathers that passes. It passes,
especially the first like in the first act, especially when
they're all still hanging out a lot before people start dying. Uh,
there's a bunch of scenes where it passes. They're talking.
There's somewhere they're talking that women are talking, but it's
it is about uh j D or someone. But um, Yeah,

(47:07):
they talk about all kinds of things. They talk about bulimia.
They talk about the lunchtime pole, which is a classic.
I did like the lunchtime Pole. I remember seeing that
in high school and being like, we should do that.
It seems fun. The question that they posed, though, is
so stupid it's infurious, And I wrote it down because

(47:27):
I was like, well, that's a pretty well thought out
question for someone so young. You inherit a million dollars
two days before the aliens blow the world up? What
do you do? Yeah? I think that Oh what would
you do? Oh? Wait, I was I wrote down what
everyone answered that question with the concept was that you

(47:48):
win the money. But you know, you know the world's
gonna end and you have the money, so Calin will
pose it to you first, because I just read all
your Facebook stays is very rudely. You inher a million
dollars two days before aliens blow the world up, and like,
you know that the world's going to blow up in
two days? What do you do it? First of all,
it's five million dollars. Sorry to be I'm sorry. I

(48:11):
was in a bus station. What a certain damage fund?
Me gently with the chainsaws? I guess with only two
days to live, I don't know. I would just kill
myself knowing that things would from the aliens. Oh, that

(48:33):
hadn't even occurred to me. I guess if like with
five million dollars, that was somehow enough resources to stop
the aliens, sure I would do that. But if if
it's like if certain death is coming, I would just
get it over with right away, and I or maybe
I'd be like, hey, does anyone want to commit a murder?
And then you can frame it as my suicide if

(48:54):
you want page what JD. I don't know. I mean, like,
what can you really do a value because it's like,
you know, you want to say like you'd give it
to charity or whatever, but it's like charity cancering with
it in two days, like you like you're going to
feed the hungry, like they're just gonna die anyway. Like
I guess you try and maybe give people some sense

(49:15):
of joy before they nice, but like, how do you
do that? Like what would you do? Jamie? I would
invest it all and then be like, guys, we should
really invest in these companies as a joke because I
would know what they don't. I think it's her former
friend Betty Finn, poor Betty Finn. I feel like the

(49:39):
character and freakin geks, Like really, man, I've been on
both sides of that. Yeah, yeah, I guess we all have. Yeah, man,
that people grow out of each other. It's sad, it's gross,
and that's like the high school. I feel like it's
the primary time for that. You don't know who you
want to bring together forever? Cardless of whether we like

(50:01):
each other or not. You can only do that if
you're in band. I don't understand. Yeah, that's true. Yeah,
we gotta bring up your O bow. That's another thing
that we have to talk about it talking about with
my band friends today. Sent her a letter in the mail.
Um said, you used to play the clarinet as a joke.
I know she doesn't. That's nice though, he reached out.
Can I read a psalm? Yes? Oh, But the reason

(50:23):
I brought up Betty Finn is that, Um, the answer
she gives is to just like spend the money on
throwing a big bash right before everyone dies. And that's
probably the best way which is to do it. I mean,
if you're all gonna die, just like have like have fun.
There was no drunk And maybe this is like reductive
of me, but I was like, there was nothing like

(50:44):
that looked wrong with her. She seemed like a normal
I don't know, she even knows how to play. Definitely,
nothing wrong with her. She's just just like, yeah, she
just doesn't like cool in the right way. Right. Yeah,
there there's just been missing. Poor Betty. She lived, but
also she's fine ultimately not poor Betty. I'll probably grew

(51:06):
up to be you know, she has a PhD. Now, Yeah,
she didn't have any crazy traumatic experiences because she wasn't
trying to be cool. She's a woman in stem now
and it's wild because we need more of those. Um. Okay,
I just wanted to But you're reading a psalm? Is
that how you say it? Salm? Yeah? I've never been
to church of a palm. I'm sorry. The s is

(51:31):
silent um? Are we Is there anything else we need
to talk about before I read a psalm? Maybe this
will be a fun new way to close this show. Yeah,
all the hands and closed her eyes. Please not ever again,
but this time I permit you. Okay, just that if
we all calm down a little bit impossible, but okay,

(51:51):
and we're gonna pray. Okay. So um, the Lord is
my shepherd. He leads me in the paths of righteousness.
I will fear no evil. I will dwell in the
house of the Lord forever. That's great, Jesus, thank you

(52:14):
so much. That was wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, do we
need to cover anything else? Welded that it does pass
the BacT to test a bunch of different times for
sure on that. But it's just a confusing movie in
general to analyze. It's just it's a tricky one. Well
it's like I mean, because it's like, you know, it

(52:37):
portrays these girls realistically, but it's not in a nice way.
So that's tough. Like, obviously, ideally you want something that
portrays women behaving maturely and cool. I think it portrays
certain aspects of certain people realistically, but the characters still
are so they're pretty one dimensional. And so it's definitely

(52:59):
like an uncanny valley of like everyone's bad traits, regardless
of gender come out way faster and wave like in
a more obvious way than it would in real life.
But well, don't know, it's not really a gender issue
in this movie. Terrible. High schoolers are dumb. Yeah, I
think we can all agree on that they suck. Sorry,

(53:21):
if we have any high school fans, shout out to
high schoolers. Yeah, if you're listening to this, then you
are cool. What stay cool? What is up? Yeah? You
get some you get a lot to look forward to.
You got a lot of life to live my friends. Yeah,
tweet at us, tweet tweet and faith. Thank you high

(53:42):
school there. So uh, once again, page, thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me. I love talking about Heathers. We
conclude each episode by rating the movie in the context
of its portrayal of the women in it. Boy do
we do we do? This is a hard one. It's

(54:03):
a really hard one, and my judgment is going to
be clouded because I just don't really like this movie.
But because we've had some hennessy and yeah, well not
that much. I finished my Mike's hard good. Yeah, well,
thank you. Um, I'm going to give it two and
a half stars. And here's why do we have what

(54:25):
oh my god, I'm drunk goes stars that we read
it on a scale of zero to five nipples. We
described the nipples yeah, um, two and a half because

(54:47):
I like that it's like a movie about women and
the women are the driving force largely. But I just
don't like any of them. But so let me just
feel very conflicted. I don't know. Maybe I'll change my
mind later, but right now, it's two and a half nipples.
Two of them belong to I think his name is Ram,
one of the football jocks, very very very small, tiny nipples.

(55:11):
Great name for high school jock. And then the other
one belongs to Christians. Later. The other half nipples is
Christians Laters and it's smooth and it's nice nice. Okay, Um,
I guess it is. It is tough to rate because

(55:32):
they are children, not really like women, but so I
guess I would even though I love this movie, I
would probably give it like three nipples, but they're like
it's like one of um, they're like brown, like nice nipples. Yeah,
I give it three nipples and one song. Um. Okay,

(55:54):
can I say what the song is? You can? I
just want to do another Okay, Okay. My soul waits
for God alone. He alone is my rock and my salvation.
Trust in Him at all times. Oh, people, power and
love belong to God. Indeed, as we bray, I give
a three nipples, they all belong to the dad who's

(56:15):
proud of his gay son. Oh, I want mine to
belong to the dad who says I don't patronize bunny rabbits. Well,
we forgot about that dad. That's Veronica's dad. Veronica's parents.
We did not talk about their what was going on
with They have no personality. I like when when her

(56:37):
mom thinks that Veronica has committed suicide and she walks
in the first thing she says is I wish I'd
let you get that joke at the mall whoever. And
I'm just like, really, this is how you're reacting to
the That's the other thing. No one reacts in a
way that I can believe at all, Like, no one
is devastated by or feeling guilt about having committed these murders.

(56:59):
It's just sing to me. Yeah, it's weird that it's
like elevated to like, oh, the Heathers are everything, but
then one of them does and like no one cares.
But but that's the point. Yeah, everyone's just like, who's
going to be the new one? Right? She wasn't important?
Is important? Yeah? Maybe that's why they're all named Heather.

(57:19):
Does matter who you are as an individual, It just
matters that you are a Heather. Deep. I love it.
I'm very smart. I'm sweating. It's so hot I am. Yeah. Um, well,
I think that it's time to go a song like

(57:46):
a psalm A psalm. I think we've done enough psalms
for today, unless you'd like another, I've got more. Let's
gave it for the next time. I think I'll let
another one happen. Really yeah, um, hey, pages there anything
you want to plug or where can people find you
on the internet. Um, you can follow me on Twitter
at page Weldon, and you can visit my website at

(58:08):
higgs ballon dot com. We have fun comedy articles and stuff,
and we have a show at the Improv Lab febr
ten pm yea for love it. You can follow us
at becktel Cast on Twitter. You can write to us
via email. Has never done that, not yet, so I
really encourage people to email us at the Bechtel Cast

(58:32):
at gmail dot com just about anything about anything, anything
you want. And then, um, we also have a Facebook.
We can check that out and like it. So there
you go. Alright, guys, keep reading that Bible and I
keep doing the right thing. Yeah, so yeah bye