Hitch with Ronald Young Jr.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On The Bechdelcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women in them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism?

Speaker 3 (00:10):
The patriarchy?

Speaker 4 (00:11):
Zeff and best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi, Everybody, Jamie popping in at the top of the
episode to ask for your humble vote in the Signal Awards.
The Signal Awards are a podcast industry award and a
show a produce. We The Unhoused has been nominated in
the People's Choice category for public service and activism. If
you haven't listened to the show before, we've talked about

(00:37):
it on the Bechdel Cast many times. But it is
a show created and hosted by the wonderful Theo Henderson
that is about issues that affect the unhoused, told by
unhoused people themselves. It is a wonderful show. I am
so proud of it. There are some stiff competition, and
we would.

Speaker 5 (00:53):
Appreciate your vote. It is literally two clicks. There is
a link in the description of the episode. You are
listening right now, so pause the episode, vote and enjoy
the show. The Bechdelcast, Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
If I do ninety percent of the introduction to this episode.
Will you come in with the other ten percent.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
I'll come in with the other ten percent, and then
we'll fall in love. Okay, great, and then we'll be
I guess that makes you hitch and meet Kevin James.
Is that the dynamic?

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, there are two different scenarios here.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Am I like Kevin James of the podcast? I guess yeah,
it's true. I could also be Kevin James. Uh? What
is god? Rom common names are so elusive. You're just
started naming the actors Kevin James, Rich Lady Addison.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Adelaide Allegra has the name of an isn't that an
allergy medicine?

Speaker 2 (01:53):
It is the name of an allergy medicine. This is
an allergy medicine coded movie.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh my gosh, Benadryl makes as big appearance.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Anyways, Yes, I'm down to do ten percent of the work.
That sounds like it would be a hugely fluid rock.

Speaker 6 (02:07):
Good. Great.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftis.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
My name is Caitlin Derante. This is our show where
we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point. And what
is that? Do you think, Jamie?

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, I do feel like it is relevant to today's
discussion because there's there's a case for it, but I
don't know so. The Bechdel Test is a media metric
created by our friend and yours, Alison Bechdel, back in
the eighties for her comic Thanks to Watch Out for.
Originally made as a one off joke, it has since

(02:44):
been adapted as a mainstream media tool that we talk
about very little on this show, but it is the
title of the show. Many versions of this test. The
version we use requires that two characters of a marginalized
gender with names talk to each other about something other
than a man for more than two lines of meaningful dialogue.

(03:08):
Whatever that means to you can't be a nameless waiter character,
right unless I guess, unless the waiter's giving Will Smith
something he's allergic to. That would have been an interesting
way to pass. Oh sure, but yes, that is the metric.
But we are mostly here to talk about intersexual feminism
as it pertains to hitch Hitche two thousand and five,

(03:30):
directed by Andy Tenant, written by Kevin bish.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Kevin Bish, That Son of a Bish.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
That Son of a Bish, and then Andy Tenant a
frequent appearance on the show. He also directed It Takes Two,
he directed ever after he directed Sweet Home Alabama. So
this is the fourth Andy Tenant movie we are covering
on the show Wild. So is it a feminist podcast?

(04:01):
We don't know, but we have a wonderful guest here today.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
We certainly do. He is an audio producer and host
of the podcasts Wait for It and Leaving the Theater.
It's Ronald Young Junior.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome.

Speaker 6 (04:16):
Happy to be here, Happy to have you. A big
fan wait to talk about Hitch. Big fans of y'all
as well.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
I saw you at the at the Amb's this year,
and I feel like you're at you the outside of
the MBS this past year.

Speaker 6 (04:28):
Yeah. Yeah, it was just it was mostly the jacket
was doing most of the work. Well, the glasses, I
guess as well.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
I was like, it was no, it was the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
It's the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Give yourself credit. Yes, what is your history with the
movie Hitch?

Speaker 6 (04:43):
The movie Hitch came out when I was a junior
in college, so I would have probably been barely twenty
years old. Well, actually I would have been solidly twenty,
maybe about to turn twenty one. And it was when
Will Smith was on a tear in terms of the
films that he had done. He had already done Ali
I am Legend was in his future and this was

(05:06):
during the same string that he was gonna end up
doing Hancock. So I was excited to see whatever the
new Will Smith movie was. When I saw the preview
for this, I was like, Oh, that looks cute, and
I also love Kevin James. I was watching a lot
of King of Queens at the time, which I still
think is a very funny show, but it was. It
was It was fun to see Kevin James start to
begin to make his transition into more of a movie star,

(05:27):
because this was kind of the beginning of him starting
to show up in movies. I think this is pre
Paul Blart.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Mallcop I believe, so, yeah, this is this is part
of the road to Blart exactly.

Speaker 6 (05:37):
That's exactly. That's what I call it, too, the Road
to Blark TM. So he was headed, he was headed
in that direction. So seeing the previews, I remember I
was sitting in a room with some friends and they
were like, I want to see that new Will Smith
date doctor movie. And then we were watching a movie
at the time, and you know how when DVDs used
to have previews on them, which is yes, wild to
think about, but the preview came on and I was like, oh,

(05:59):
that does look very good. They had him having the
allergic reaction in the preview and all that, so I
was very excited to see it.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
That was a huge part of the marketing of that movie.

Speaker 6 (06:07):
I remember if drinking and be.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Like, come on that, which is that's really the only
kind of thing of that nature that hacks in this movie.
But I also vividly remember the yeah, the turnover the
shoulder and the kidvened store and the like hives prosthetics.
It's a choice, it's a choice.

Speaker 6 (06:30):
It really is very very romantic comedy coded of that era.
They like they truly don't make them like this anymore,
which is like for for better and worse at the
same time. You know, yeah, like as soon as that
opening sequence comes on, you immediately start like logging for
a better time. Sorry, I'm talking too much. I can
talk about this.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Well, that's what we're here to do.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, we're here to get to the bottom of Hitch.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
So you saw it when it came out, and then
have you been revisiting it since or did you leave
it in the past until now?

Speaker 6 (07:02):
So I bought it on DVD. It is probably downstairs
in my DVD collection, which is just a big binder
of DVDs. I got rid of all the cases because
what do we even need those? I'm right there with you, yeah,
but I still have.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
My DVD binder of like two hundred DVDs.

Speaker 6 (07:16):
Okay. But the funny thing about that, okay, And I
used to watch Hitch regularly, like, oh, y'all want to
watch Hitch? Like just throw it on, like great date movie,
that type of thing. But all of those films that
existed back then, even though I own them, depending on
where they're positioned on streaming media, they completely leave my mind.
It's like they don't exist anymore. So when y'all mentioned this,

(07:40):
I was like, oh, yeah, I think it's been a
solid at least ten, maybe fifteen years since I watched
that movie, and I just I yeah, So it's I
loved it for a time when it was out, and
then it just disappeared into the back corners of my mind.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah, you have to return. We must return to Hitch.

Speaker 6 (08:00):
We gotta go back.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
We have to come back.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
We have to go back to Hitch.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
To go back. I have just started watching Lost last year,
and what a treat. What a treat?

Speaker 6 (08:11):
Yeah you say that. Now what season are you on? Oh?

Speaker 2 (08:14):
I've watched the whole series twice.

Speaker 6 (08:16):
Which okay, okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
It's like, I am, well, we got a table Lost
because I got ept.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
You growingly come back for Lost. We'll do a spinoff
podcast all of Lost.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Easy prep. Yeah, I got the flu and I watched Lost.

Speaker 6 (08:32):
You probably got it from the island.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Oh my gosh, what are the others?

Speaker 2 (08:37):
That's one of the other cough in my mouth and
here I am, Jimmie.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
What's your history with Hitch?

Speaker 2 (08:44):
My history with Hitch is that I saw it.

Speaker 7 (08:46):
I I This I feel like goes very firmly into
my middle school sleepover cannon and kind of an outlier
in the ramkan genre because it's I mean in a
number of ways, but it's very rare in a rom
com for the man to be the character that.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
We're leading with. I feel like it's very it's most
often that he's kind of behind the woman trying to
have it all. But this is like peak, well, I
don't even know when peak Willsmith exactly was. It feels close.
This feels pretty close.

Speaker 6 (09:20):
It's close.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, but I hadn't seen it in at least ten years,
probably longer. Although I feel like you see, if you
spend enough time on the internet, you see Hitch in
the wild with some frequency. People remember Hitch. Yeah, I
most clearly remember the Hives scene, and then I didn't
remember a bunch of stuff that I've excited to talk about.

(09:42):
But I mean, mainly, rewatching this movie is like I
miss Eva Mendez. Yes, I miss her acting not I mean,
she's still thriving, but she doesn't act anymore, and I
miss it. She's just like the most charismatic woman on
the face the earth, and so as well. I mean,
obviously Will Smith is Will Smith, but but yeah, I

(10:05):
don't know. There's I feel like this movie has been
through so many waves of criticism, reconsideration, reclaiming, getting rid
of it again. It was so interesting going through the
like because there's tons of essays about Hitch every time
it reaches an anniversary, marker, and it always changes a

(10:25):
little bit the public perception of Hitch, and I feel
like I would have felt differently about it ten years
ago than I do now. It's all over the place
if this movie does mix all over the place, because
sometimes it's like it's so weird, whereas like sometimes it's
like ooh, a point is being approached, and then they're like,
never mind, never mind. I expected to not like it

(10:53):
a lot less than I. I mean, there there is
stuff to love about this movie. I get why people
return to it, and even then does un Retired challenge Kaylyn,
what's your history with Hitch?

Speaker 1 (11:06):
I also saw it when it came out. I remember
the marketing a lot, and I was like, well, I
guess rom coms have never really been my genre, and
I prefer Will Smith when he's in an alien movie.
But I was like, sure, I'll go with what I was.
I think a freshman or sophomore in college at the time,

(11:29):
so I imagine I went with some friends to see
in theaters, and I feel like I watched it a
couple more times since then, just because it would kind
of be on in the room I was in. But
I never had much of an attachment to it and

(11:49):
forgot most of the things as well, except for the
ninety percent ten percent kissing advice.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
You remember that.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
I think about that like once a week. Well, not
as like advice that I think people should follow, but
it's just it for some reason that stuck with me.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
I get that that's a sticky that's a sticky bit
of information.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's a sticky thing because I'm always like, I think
what it is is I'm afraid a man is gonna
go ninety percent into trying to kiss me, and like,
just how yucky I feel about that.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Ninety percent is too many. That's a lot of persons.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Maybe it should be fifty to fifty.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, you know, that's a good threshold.

Speaker 6 (12:36):
I think it also articulates something that I don't believe in,
which is the idea that when it comes to kissing,
that the onus is on the man to like make
the kiss happen, which is something that has bitten me
in the behind so many times in life, because there
have been women who was like, oh, well, he didn't
try to kiss me, he must not like me, and

(12:56):
I was like, no, I'm just shy and don't I'm
afraid I want to, but I don't know how to
do it, and I don't want to do ninety percent.
It feels like I've be encroaching on your space.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
And this is why I think about it all the time.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
And weirdly, like Hitch doesn't totally step away from the
fact that like men obviously experience anxiety and confidence issues
like that is such a huge part of it.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
But then it gets weird to get I don't know.

Speaker 6 (13:24):
I think the movie vacillates. I wrote this down. I
think it vacillates between being a pickup artist's manual and
then an actual guide to talking to human women. So
at its worst, yes, it's a pickup artist. At its best,
it's like, here's how you talk to a woman, and
I'm like, actually, that's not that bad. When it's like, hey,
just talk to her, be nice, like be kind to her,

(13:46):
you know what I mean. Listen, Yes, I'm like, that's
not bad. But then because it throws it in a blender,
it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, this isn't right,
Will Smith, I don't know if you're doing this right.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
And then the ending being like I don't know, and
then there's Grandma Hedge. I forgot about Grandma.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Oh yeah, Grandma Hitch.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
I would see that movie too.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, at least it's not what's that movie, Crazy Stupid
Love where it's just like, here's how to be a
pickup artist?

Speaker 6 (14:15):
Yees.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, it like sort of starts to veer into that
territory sometimes, but it never gets all the way. Yeah,
and yes, some of the advice that Hitch gives is
solid advice. A lot of it isn't, Yeah, but some
of it is. And the takeaway from this movie I
think is generally positive. But the point is I forgot
most of it except for the ninety ten thing, and

(14:36):
I am sort of haunted by it. But we'll unpack
that and more. Let's take a quick break and then
we'll come back for the recap, and we're back.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Let's lock it's Hitch time. I also this reminded me
of I know that this is probably something that still happens,
but I do associate the naming convention. It kind of
feels geely coded to me, where you're like, oh, the
guy's name is Jeelie. The guy's name is Hitch. You're like, oh,
I guess I didn't see that coming.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Alex Hitchens aka Hitch, Larry Jeelie, you know, keep going.

Speaker 6 (15:27):
Also Gilie's Ark two thousand and three, Hitch circa two
thousand and five. So you're hitting the nail on the
head in terms of what it was happening.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
The people wanted what they wanted, except one of the
main differences being Hitch was wildly successful to this day
is still the third most successful rom com at the
box office ever.

Speaker 6 (15:45):
Wow, whoa yeah, of all time? What's two and one?

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Two and one? Oh my gosh, it just had it
up two in one. One of them is so this
is at the box office, but yes, it beats Pretty
Woman adjusted for inflation. It's my big Greek wedding. What
women want or before.

Speaker 6 (16:02):
Women one should not be number two. That's that's wild.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
What women want is nasty, that is.

Speaker 6 (16:07):
Not Yeah, have y'all done that on this show. I'll
be back, Yes, Okay, do it again so I can
talk trash.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
It's an interesting. Top ten is my big fact Greek wedding.
What women Want? Hitch, Pretty Woman, Wild, there's something about
Mary crazy rich Asians, the proposal which I barely remember,
Sex and the City Runaway Bride knocked up. That's the
top ten.

Speaker 6 (16:31):
Wow, that's okay, so their box office. This isn't preference,
which makes sense, Like you're listing ten movies that I
think people would go see. But wow, Hitch being number three, Well,
but actually it is like kind of a straight down
the middle of romantic comedy in a lot of ways.
But like I mean, and we're about to unpack the
real examinations of it. But I guess it's not that unsurprising.

(16:54):
The other number two, What women Want, that's way more
disappointing to me.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
That's too many, yes, just too many, like at least
my big fact Greek wedding. I like, correct, What women
want is a movie with a with a dark aura.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, yeah, evil vibes.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah about pick up artists, my god, totally Like even
without mel Gibson it's scary, but with him inexcusable.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, yes, yeah.

Speaker 6 (17:22):
Can I say one thing?

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Oh yeah, please, oh yeah.

Speaker 6 (17:24):
I just want to point out that when y'all y'all
picked Hitch, and I was so excited, I expected to
be like anything that comes out in the early two
thousands that I'm revisiting now, I'm expecting that I'm going
to be like what was I thinking at this time?
And I really appreciate y'all because this was one of
the rare exceptions where I'm like, great, it has some problems,
but I don't. I don't feel dirty like walking away

(17:45):
from this as I did from other things that came
out around that time when we really thought we were
invincible culturally as a country point to be noticed a little.
So I really appreciate y'all bringing me in for this one.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Oh oh, absolutely, you are so grateful to have you.
And let's meet.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Hitch shall we Alice hitch Hitchins.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Alex Hitchins played by Will Smith. He is a dating
coach dubbed the Date Doctor. And something I think is
hilarious about this movie is that everyone in New York
City knows about the Date Doctor, as if he's like
Spider Man, where we don't know his true identity, but

(18:26):
it's like I've heard of him though, and he's famous.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Unlike Spider Man. He has an amazing apartment.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, yes, he's raking it in.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Beautiful rom com. I mean it's like that. It's almost
like self aware the way they're doing it because he
never says how much he charges. He's just like, that's
why they pay me, so much. I love this. This
world is just class does not exist, no, really in
this world, and sometimes that can be fun. You're like, sure,

(18:57):
not good for them and good for Hitch, although you
know at what cost.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Okay, So we meet Hitch during a montage where he's
helping men talk to women, or get women to notice them,
or orchestrate a meet. Cute. There's also voiceover monologue from
Hitch and we'll talk about this, but it's advice, and again,

(19:24):
some of it isn't horrible. A lot of it is
quite gender prescriptive as far as this is what women
like and so that's what you should do about it.

Speaker 6 (19:34):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, leading with the women who are really into their
career right now? Do you believe that? Neither did she?
She's lying. You're like, Wow, I love this guy.

Speaker 5 (19:43):
Can't wait to hear her.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
I can't wait to follow his journey.

Speaker 6 (19:46):
Yeah. The good thing is when he's talking of like,
I feel good knowing that we know more than him
at this point. Sound like, yeah, yeah, bless, I'm going
to assume that Alex Hitchins grew up with the rest
of us, like by twenty twenty five. He's like, I
said some things and I don't actually agree with anymore.
And I'm like, oh, that's perfectly fine. That's that's the
grace that I'm offering him at this point, I hope.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
So we come to this place to show Hitch grace.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, I wouldn't be mad about Hitch two you know,
contemporary modern day, twenty years later or whatever. And yeah,
he's changed his ways.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yes, that's what gets us. Ava Mendez back, Fine, I
watch it. I'll go, I'll go watch it.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So Hitch's thing is that
he will help men for the first three dates and
after that they're on their own. Then we meet Sarah
played by Eva Mendez. Her various male colleagues and bosses
are like, you need a boyfriend, and she's like, I

(20:47):
don't have time for a boyfriend. I'm too focused on
my career.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
She cooks forty hours a week talking about how she
doesn't need a boy thread.

Speaker 6 (20:58):
Yep, I do like that.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
They give because she does. I mean, in rom com fashion.
She is a New York City journalist, but she's kind
of like a dirty journalist. She's a but not the
way the movie frames it. The movie doesn't. They're just
like I just think it's I mean, it makes sense
in the plot. Why they she ends up being a
gossip I don't know. Maybe it was just sex and

(21:19):
the City era and this was this was a thing true.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Right because she's a gossip columnist at a newspaper, remember
those And some of her recent coverage has been on
a celebrity named Allegra Cole and a breakup that she
just went through.

Speaker 6 (21:37):
Can we just point out her apartment is way too
big for a reporter?

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yes, and classic Carrie fashion. Yeah, yeah, you're just you're like, wow,
her and Hitch cumulatively, I'm just like, yeah, they're loaded.
They're loaded, and god knows how, but I'm happy for them.

Speaker 6 (21:56):
I support it.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
They're both living in like three million dollar condos padform.
We're not sure how.

Speaker 6 (22:01):
At least her door opens out, that's how. That's how
I know you got money if you're not concerned about
the direction of your door opens like whatever, I got
a doorman. They can't get in here.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
And they don't you don't know if they own, but
they have they carry themselves as if they own the place.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yes. Yeah, Then we cut to Hitch at a bar
playing pool with a character played by raging Zionist piece
of ship. Michael Rappaport, Caitlyn I almost flipped the table.

Speaker 6 (22:33):
I was like, what is this guy doing?

Speaker 1 (22:38):
May he rot in hell? This man?

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Nothing can prepare you to see what a jump scare
really is.

Speaker 6 (22:48):
And that's such a good use of jump Scared two.
That's what happened.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
I was like, Michael, why worse than the Hives scene?
Like they it's also just I mean, we don't need
to get it a full Michael Rappaport, but like Zionist
is the tip of the iceberg with this, I mean
just a vile, vile being overt racist.

Speaker 6 (23:09):
Yeah, as I would say, so evil, evil man.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Every mask is off with this guy.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, at least he's only in this one scene and
he never comes back.

Speaker 6 (23:18):
But it could have cut it. Honestly, they shouldly.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Should have cut it.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
They should do a twentieth anniversary release that cuts out
the Michael Rapaport because also it's cuttable.

Speaker 6 (23:26):
It really is a lot.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Wise, you don't need it cuttable.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
And the movie is too long. It's two hours long.
No rom com should be longer than ninety ninety five minutes,
like what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Although I do appreciate the long extended wedding dance sequence
at the end. That's just a return to form. Yeah,
that's tradition.

Speaker 6 (23:46):
That's that's obviously not what goes on the kind of
roof floor there's but we could as you go through,
we could probably say what could have been cut in
terms of like story, like come on, you didn't need
this part, Like that's very you. You said two hours
to it. I remember thinking it feels like a tight nine,
but then after a while you're like, Okay, it's still
kind of going, like what's what's happening here? Why are
we still here?

Speaker 2 (24:05):
When that guy Tom shows up at the end, I
was like I'm done, I'm done.

Speaker 6 (24:10):
Yes, this should have happened to Sina, though, why is
this happening now? Like this is this is weird? This
grand gesture, like you've already done it? Why are we
what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (24:19):
The grand gesture? Also, I was just like, this is
a good weaponization of the Steve Puschemi test. If Steve
Pushemi does anything that Hitch does in this movie, it's
it's menacing and scary behavior.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Steve, Oh, this is we made this cast original.

Speaker 6 (24:37):
This is a this is good, this should be that's
amazing and also terrible for Steve. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
I know it will mean this our friend Steve, who's
a bonafid but he plays creeps a lot.

Speaker 6 (24:52):
This would also work for Bill Scar's guard. So don't
feel like it just has to be Steve because if Bill,
because you know how I know it's true about Bill
scar Card is that barbarian doesn't work if Bill scars
guard is not a little bit creepy because you you
think he's up to something the whole time, but he's
actually not good looking guy whatever. But like, yeah, I'm
just saying you can you can slash that. It doesn't

(25:12):
just have to be Steve.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Oh that makes me feel great about this test because
I was like, I don't want to. I don't want
to come down on our friend Steve. But it's the
same thing where it's just like that type cast actor
and so much of this movie. If you apply that test,
you're like, well, I don't know, I don't know, but
this this hitch.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Guy doesn't feel great.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
I love this.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Throw him soap on the hood of a car. I
don't know, No, I'm.

Speaker 6 (25:38):
Seeing it all with Steve Shimmy, you took her, you
took her to see.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Oh yeah, the Ellis Island thing.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Steve tell me, trapped you in Ellis Island?

Speaker 6 (25:51):
Like I got here even with Bill Scar's guard. It's
still like again here, like why did you take me
to see my murder and grandfather?

Speaker 8 (25:59):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (26:00):
I can't wait to get there.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
I kind of like the ls Island bit. It makes
no sense, but I was like, yeah, we get but
I liked it right anyway.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
The whole point of this, like bar scene where they're
playing pool, is the Hitch is being told that he
should try to find a meaningful long term relationship, because
Hitch's whole thing is that he only does very casual,
short term dating, and according to the movie, that's bad

(26:34):
and shallow and.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Also women can't do it, and women are just simply
not allowed in this world. Women have no desire to
have casual sex and have no interest in it at all.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yes, and we're like, oh, why is Hitch like this?

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Who broke his.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Heart or whatever? And we get a flashback of Hitch
in college before he had any game, where he fell
in love with a woman named Cressida and he came
on too strong and she broke his heart, but he
learned quote unquote from this experience, and that's why he
does the work that he does, and that's why he

(27:15):
is the way that he is in his own dating life.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
It feels very studio notesy that they give you this
explanation in full flashback. I kept waiting for, like Cresida,
for him to like run into Cressida or something. I
feel like that could have been an interesting plot point
of like him running into her twenty years later and
like them having some sort of conversation or her being like,
I'm sorry, I hurt you, even though he reacts quite

(27:40):
violently when he tries out she's cheating, But I don't know.
I kept there was like so much specificity to that
flashback that is, like, you really think he's gonna see
her down the line.

Speaker 6 (27:50):
The other thing I want to point out is that
when they do the flashback and all he does is
put on glasses, I'm like, I just want to point
out this man is still very good looking, and he's
still very very normal of the age of the time
that he was around, So I don't think he'd be
not adjusted or unable to talk to women or date
or whatever. They kind of put him in this category
that he is not in just because you put a

(28:12):
pair of glasses on him. As a matter of fact,
they might have improved what he looked like. I'm like,
that's one of your five looks. Will. You should definitely
be wearing glasses of other ports in this movie.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
It just kind of takes me to like a specific
Fresh Prince era. You're like, yeah, we liked that, we
liked that.

Speaker 6 (28:25):
Yeah, we're here for hot yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Right. Also at this bar is Sarah with her friend Casey.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
She's too much wearing her the Beatles shirt from Target.
She's too much. She's cracking me up with her her
little t shirts, her little blazers. You're like, two thousand
and five, we were just doing whatever.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
To me. That was signaling like she's not like the
other girls because she likes the Beatles and drinks beer.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yes, yes, I think that that is exactly what it's
supposed to be telegraphing. But I kind of don't have
a problem with it. I think funny, right, the Beatles, Wow,
what a subversive choice.

Speaker 6 (29:07):
Yeah, it's so off kilter, quirky.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
I've never heard of them.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Say more so, Sarah and Casey are talking about dating
and men and being single, so not passing the Bechdel
test spoiler alert.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
At one point they're never passing the Bechdel test. But interestingly,
to me, in one scene there, you're not passing the
Bechdel test and eating some really like weird looking food.
When they go to that, they're eating like rice pudding.
In one of the scenes where they're not passing the
Bechdel test, You're like, what a weird what a weird
way to like? I like rice pudding, but it seems
like a gentrified rice pudding spot. I was like, was

(29:44):
that ever a thing?

Speaker 6 (29:45):
It was wild, but I'm not I didn't live in
New York at that time, so I don't know what
was happening to get New York in two thousand and
five were girls.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
We're girls talking about Will Smith over rice pudding.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
I don't know, we don't know. But in this case,
they're talking about a guy who Casey has recently met,
who she likes, but she's worried that he might be
kind of a sleeze ball and Sarah is like, he's
definitely a sleeze but Casey wants to go out with
him anyway. And this will come back later. Then we
meet Hitch's newest client, Albert Brenneman played by Kevin James,

(30:23):
a guy with absolutely no game and he wants help
with Allegra Cole that like celebrity heiress woman who Sarah
has been writing about, and Albert's company handles her finances.
So he has met Allegra briefly, but she barely knows

(30:43):
he exists, and he knows that she's likely quote unquote
out of his league, but Hitch is up to the challenge.

Speaker 6 (30:52):
To be clear, feels like Hitch is like, you know what,
I'm the best. I'll take this on. He doesn't actually
explicitly state that, but there's a way which he's like, man,
this is like because he actually uses the words like
Michaelangelo Siste Chapel and basically say like this is going
to be his masterpiece making this workout, which feels like
an opportunity for him with that regard. But if I

(31:13):
could just say one thing, I mean, obviously I have
a weight based podcast, w E I g ht weight
for it to see him cast a fat man in
this role where it's not totally lampooning himself like he is.
He is confident and who he is as a person.
What he lacks confidence in is his ability to connect

(31:36):
with this woman specifically, which feels more progressive than I
would expect from a two thousand and five movie. Now,
there are some fat jokes, and there are some very
distinct things that he's fat. He eats a bunch of donuts,
he's fat, He splits his pants. That type of thing
is in there, But like it's not about his person
hood and who he is, Like, there's never a part

(31:57):
of it that's like I need to lose weight so
I can go talk to this woman, which I appreciated
in twenty twenty five because we don't often get that,
especially not for fat men.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
For sure.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, because he trips
on marbles at some point. You're like this poor man.
But but it's like that is not unlike so many,
especially in comedies, so many fact characters like he's that
is not his defined in quality, and Hitch not to
his credit. But I was just like Hitch, that is
not a factor for him, and he's like, no, it's

(32:29):
just about like I mean, he is a con man,
he's a confidence man. He's trying to build up Albert's
confidence and it I don't know.

Speaker 9 (32:39):
Yeah, I was also like, the very broad stuff is
the very broad stuff you would expect for this time,
but the if you like look at the story, you're like,
they actually mutually grow through this friendship.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, that never happens with men. That's really nice, like
in movies.

Speaker 6 (32:55):
I like it. Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's one
of the things that makes you feel good when you
get to the end end, especially you know, well, I'll
say this, I know we're going to get there. There's
a portion of the film which we're gonna get to
in which they connect over their boat, their like kind
of twin, like we'll say obstacle without spoiling it. And
I feel like that moment we rarely get of men

(33:16):
saying what should we do? Or I feel bad and
them having that kind of back and forth, which is
really it kind of ends up being the ethos of
the movie. But you're right, we don't. We don't get
to see that with dudes.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, very off.

Speaker 6 (33:28):
Not in two thousand and five. Like, if we're talking
about the time, it certainly wasn't having a lot in
two thousand and five.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Definitely not.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
No, I mean and I don't know, and then it's
like by the end, I mean, like Kevin James is
like he gets the well, it's complicated, gets does he
get the right girlfriend? It's the well we're about to
get to it.

Speaker 6 (33:46):
Yeah, look at us jumping ahead.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
There's just so much to talk about.

Speaker 6 (33:51):
Okay, sorry, because like I'm not even halfway in. Guys,
We're three.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Minutes and it just got to the inciting incident.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
So there's this guiddam hit.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Okay, So Hitch gets to work on helping Albert with
Allegra Cole, who we finally meet on screen, played by
Amber Valletta, who goes to a meeting with her financial advisors.
She's asking if she can have five hundred thousand dollars
to invest in her friend's clothing design company, but the
main advisor guy shuts her down. So Albert takes this

(34:26):
opportunity to advocate for Allegra so that hopefully she'll notice
and appreciate him, and it works and she wants to
meet with him one on one to talk about her investments.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Now this, hmm, I understand what they're trying to do
with this, but it's so I don't know. I did
not care for the way it's presented where he's like,
what if I neg do you at work in front
of everybody? Like there it was like a And it's
even referenced when she gets to the door where he

(35:00):
thinks she's going to be upset, and then she's like no,
I She's like, no one's ever talked to me like that,
And I liked it. I'm like, okay, so that's how
we're writing women character in this where it's like you
have to suspend your disbelief of how a person would talk.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Well because it's a mix of him nagging her, but
then quickly she gets too advocating for her, so yeah,
who knows exactly what she means, But the point is
it works and she does notice him finally did.

Speaker 6 (35:29):
I think it is performed and is written and comes
off as nagging, but the way I received it and
I feel like it's poor writing, especially when you get
to the part where she's angry at him, because I
feel like if that scene had just been like, you
don't have to ask us for what you want to do.
If you wanted us to do something, we're going to
do it, but we're here to advise you. If that
had been how it was written, and he still goes

(35:50):
off on the boss and all that. Then it makes sense.
But like this idea because I remember sitting there being like,
the whole point was Hitch said that you're supposed to
be making a splash at this point, So if he
advised him to do negging, and what actually happened was
this this kind of like moment of advocacy. For me,
it feels like I wish they had written it differently

(36:12):
because Alex certainly did not tell him to like speak
up in the meeting, tell her to f their advice,
do what she's going to do, and then quit his job,
you know what I mean. So I think that part
it was murky to me in the writing. The execution
comes off exactly like you said, It sounds like negging
and an advocacy. But I'm like, all we really needed
because later on the movie we see that the whole

(36:33):
point is that he basically never listens to will Smith's
advice and just only is just being himself the whole time,
you know.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
And that's what works, which I like I do too.

Speaker 6 (36:43):
That's a great messaging and.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
I like that. I mean, we don't get that much like,
we don't know that much about Allegraate, but I do know, no,
but but really do get the surface stuff is I
kind of liked it where it's like, you, you know,
she's whatever we think of how blonde women with severe
bobs are usually characterized in this genre. It's not as like, ooh,

(37:07):
I'm a dork. I've like, I feel I'm uncomfortable with
myself and I appreciated that.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yeah, there is some dissonance to me where it's like
she's the daughter of maybe a billionaire it seems. And
I'm like, oh, we're supposed to think that she's not
a sociopath then, but.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well, I mean, knowing that this is two thousand and
five and they even name drap parasols and at some
point I think that that's like sort of who we're
supposed to be inserting this into.

Speaker 6 (37:35):
Right.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, in any case, Albert has made a splash. Then
that night, Hitch is at a bar and he spots
Sarah and takes an interest.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Having a gray Goose martini, which feels very two thousand
and five code dropping the gray Goose.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yes, indeed.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Only the best because she makes a billion dollars at
her job in.

Speaker 6 (38:01):
Newspaper writing where she does not have an office, where
she's in a cubicle in the newslank floor.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Come on, true, they're really back.

Speaker 10 (38:08):
The newspaper industry is dying in the office, but for
some reason, at home, it's.

Speaker 6 (38:12):
Not crushing it.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, she has raytheon stalks or some shit like it's Carrie.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
She's the daughter of a billionaire, could be that well.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Her family life is hilarious to me because the two
things we learned about her family is that her great
grandfather was a serial killer and that her sister fell
through ice once. And that is all we learned about
her past. Really, you're like, wow, one such a specific thing,
and then the other thing is so vague. That's right,
I love it. She's just she's a complicated woman. She

(38:42):
doesn't need a boyfriend, you guys.

Speaker 9 (38:44):
No.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
In any case, hitch takes an interest in Sarah and
saves her from a creep who's hitting on her at
the bar. They chat for a few minutes about how
he's not gonna like every other annoying guy who tries
to chat her up, and then he leaves and gives
her some space to I don't know, play hard to

(39:10):
get or I don't know. And then the next day,
Hitch meets with another new client, Vance played by Jeffrey Donovan.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yes, that was I was watching with our friend Bryant
this morning and he was like he came like twenty
minutes and he's like, is burn Notice there yet? He's like,
I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
And he's like, oh, burn Notice is in this one.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, that guy.

Speaker 6 (39:38):
Yeah, the guy shows more popular than his name.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Hey, yeah, he should just change it. But oh god,
being an actor seems so awful because what if you
could just end up being burn Notice.

Speaker 6 (39:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
I'm sure you're a person and everything.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
But he went to the same state school as my mom.
Oh wow, learning all about bird Notice mister Notice.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah. Okay, So we realized that he's the guy who
Sarah's friend Casey had been talking about earlier. And this
guy Vance is like, oh, I just want to see
her again and bang her, and Hitch is like, that's
not what I do, so fuck off. Yes, then Hitch

(40:24):
sends a courier with a walkie talkie to Sarah's work
so that he can walkie talkie her and ask her
out on a date.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
No, okay, Buemi test Buschemy tests. Yeah, Bushemy sends a
mysterious box to your work, you don't open it.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Also, if it's a walkie talkie, it means that he
has to be in close enough range to her office
to talk to her. So he's basically outside.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, he's close by. He's sent an eighties punk courier.
I was thrown by the courier, but I was like,
I don't know, hitch has ops everywhere.

Speaker 6 (40:58):
This definitely doesn't pass the little Scars guard test, which
I'm calling it now, but it certainly there was something
about it where I was like, I suspect and I'm
just asking y'all if this happened in real life, what
percentage of charmed would you feel by this? If you
liked the guy?

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Okay, and that's the real thing that is.

Speaker 6 (41:21):
Yeah, let's say you liked the guy. What percentage of charm?

Speaker 1 (41:24):
If it's two thousand and five when this came out,
I think I would have been way more charmed.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Now.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
I would have been like, why didn't you just ask
me for my number when we were talking at the
bar the night before? Yes, be direct, you ask.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
I think I would be like I would be I'm
not made of stone. I would still be a little charmed,
but my first question would be where are you?

Speaker 6 (41:49):
Are you in the house?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Are you been twenty yards of me?

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Right next is the call coming from inside the newspaper office.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Underneath my desk. He's also so like classic brom com
where all of a sudden, everyone at Sarah's work is like,
what people we've never seen before, we'll never see again,
and they're like, are you gonna pick up the walkie talky?

Speaker 6 (42:15):
I really enjoyed that part. This is how I know
like I'm also part of the problem because you're absolutely right,
they all gathered and the audience you feel like you're
gathering with them. You're like, ooh, what are you gonna do?
Even though like something that and I think you both
just proved that this would only work in a film
where it's like there's there's a level of charm versus

(42:37):
like versus actual work that it takes to do something
like this, versus like should like was there a more
practical way for you to just get my number? Like
could you have just written me an email? Because there
was an.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Email at that time, and then little unbeknownst to us,
the amount of work he's done on this first date.
You don't even know the half of it. He's gone
on ancestree dot com, which couldn't have been as easy
in two thousand and five.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Well exactly. He probably like had to look through like
hard copy archives or something like. Because here's what happens.
He asks her on a date. They settle on Sunday morning.
They go to Ellis Island by way of jeet skiing
on the rout Hudson River.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah, which is a really dirty body of water.

Speaker 6 (43:23):
Yeah, I would not recommend it.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Don't do that.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
It looked pretty, though, I will say, like New York
is very pretty in this movie.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, yes, But hitch he kind of flubs a few
things up, including kicking her in the head on the
jet ski and then tracing her family history back to
a relative of hers who passed through Ellis Island who
turned out to be a serial killer. And so the

(43:52):
date was not this you know, magical perfect date, but
there is something about this hitch guy, and say Sarah
agrees to see him again.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
And not before telling her friend Casey over a very
huge bowl of rice pudding. I was so distracted by
the rice pudding because it was they show you the
name of the I don't know why this stuck out
to me so much. Uh, the name of the business
is from rice to riches. And then we go inside
and rose. Like unfortunately of rom coms, it is kind

(44:23):
of a headline to be like women ate in this movie,
they let the meat, but it just I don't I
like rice pudding, but it's just I've never seen it
eaten in a rom com before. Their bulls were really full.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Look, visibility matters. I guess the rice pudding.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
And she says he really tanked, but he did it
with flair, And then she is a huge scoop of
rice pudding, which you would imagine would make her next
line of dialogue really hard to hear. But it's fine.

Speaker 6 (44:53):
It's fine. Yeah, the failing with Flair part, like I mean,
being charmed by all that, It felt like maybe maybe
being charmed by the the amount of effort it took
for him to then fail, because like because at that point,
it doesn't even feel like failure. It could be waxy
existential about this movie, but like it's it doesn't even
feel like failure. It just feels like effort, and the
effort is more I guess valuable than the the what

(45:16):
is the product of the effort, which I think is
what they're trying to get at in this part. I agree, yeah,
because I didn't like the fact they're like he failed
with flair. I'm like, what does what does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (45:26):
To say?

Speaker 6 (45:26):
You like him?

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Right exactly?

Speaker 1 (45:29):
B direct everyone. So meanwhile, Hitch is prepping Albert for
an event that he's going to with Allegracole, and Albert's like,
I hope there's dancing at the event because I freaking
tear it up on the dance floor. And he shows
Hitch some moves and Hitch is like, do not, under

(45:52):
any circumstances ever dance like that in front of her.
You look like a freak.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
I feel like I remember that from that trailers show
Kevin James dance sequence.

Speaker 6 (46:04):
For sure, he dances fine, and I that's another thing
that I want to stand for. There there's a there's
a portion in there where this skews into big guy
being a buffoon. But the truth is Kevin James has
rhythm and he has no shame, which on the dance
floor are too valuable. Those are the only two things
you need. Not a wedding, any of that stuff is
rhythm and no shame if you have those, And here's

(46:26):
the thing is, if you only have no shame and
you have no rhythm, you can actually still survive on
a dance floor. So the idea that you're telling him
that they do it to only do a two step
because you're gonna look stupid. I'm like, I don't want
to be with nobody who doesn't want to who doesn't
want to be be on the flance floor.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
And that makes you look stupid. Yeah, yeah, Also, yeah,
Kevin James much later, when he gets the kiss the
ninety ten thing happens, he does it full like Gene
Kelly thing. He's got moves, moves he does.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
He's very spry, and he does not listened to Hitch.
He's like, my instincts are telling me to dance, so
I'm going to dance. And he does that at the
event with Allegra.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
And she's also dancing like a door like it's nice,
it's nice.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
The thing is though, that some photos, some like paparazzi photos,
are taken of them dancing and they end up in
the tabloids, and Hitch thinks that Albert has humiliated himself
and Sarah is upset because she didn't get to this
story first.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, they all find us out from the same newstand.
The one news stand in all of New York City
is where every character in this movie goes.

Speaker 6 (47:37):
Yes, yep, oh news stands. What a relic of the past?

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Oh I no.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Rip. Then Hitch goes on a tirade about Albert possibly
kissing Allegra, and this is where we get the whole
men should go ninety percent of the way and wait
for a woman to go the other ten percent.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
And as a two thousand and five movie, so we
get the expected no homo moments yes of the movie
with they kiss, and Will Smith has to be like,
that's gross, yucky, that's gross.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Yeah, we'll talk more about that, but that happens. Meanwhile,
Sarah finds out that the person who got the tickets
for that event where they were dancing is Hitch, which
means maybe she can use him as a source for
this ongoing Allegra Cole story. So she calls Hitch to

(48:34):
see him again, even though she had already been like,
I'll see him again romantically, so we're just like, what
is your deal? But anyway, Sarah takes Hitch to a
food rave thing with Sarah's editor slash boss guy and
his wife, and they're trying to get information out of Hitch,

(48:55):
but he's playing it off like he barely knows Albert.
And before they can any deeper, Hitch has his allergic
reaction to shellfish or whatever, and so he takes a
bunch of benadrill and he gets drunk off of that.
I don't know if that's a thing, but he's drunk.
Now you get high, you do, Okay, Well.

Speaker 6 (49:16):
He played it drunk every day. Yeah, he played it drunk,
but it was like it's more like loopy or like
and you'd be way more dozy, which comes on later obviously,
but like at this point, like I think it was
for them. If you're gonna be in the New York streets,
that's what you want to be doing, is like being
like a little bit tipsy with your partner and like
kind of like singing a hit song from the seventy slash.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Eighties, right, Okay, So then Sarah takes hitchback to her
three million dollar condo and tucks him in. They chat
about their past traumas.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Because this is the point in the movie where, for
some reason, you have to learn about Eva Vendez. His
sister fell through some ice and she's still not over it,
And they're like, what does that have to do with anything?

Speaker 1 (50:02):
But sure, really bizarre.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
I guess it's we're always asking to find out more
about women in movies. I guess irrelevant information counts.

Speaker 6 (50:10):
I think they were trying to, like build It was
a very weak attempt at character development, because you're trying
to give her some interiority by saying, well, this is
why she is the way she is. But the characteristic
that they're strengthening is more of like like like maybe
a stone walling or a separation or an aloofness, rather than

(50:32):
the dogged journalism that we would expect to see from her,
which I would expect to have that part fleshed out
more and not necessarily why you feel protective of your sister,
which doesn't actually connect well.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
I guess we do ed the meeting for some reason.

Speaker 6 (50:51):
But I completely forgot she fell through ice when.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
I see her, Yeah, it doesn't come up.

Speaker 6 (50:58):
I know something about you I forgot.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Don't worry you really you've been through it? Does Tom?
Know who's Tom? There?

Speaker 6 (51:06):
I know you didn't meet Tom in DC.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
I do agree. It's like, this is her like, you know,
letting her guards down, letting him know something randomly traumatic
about her life, which is kind of a fun phase
of dating.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Sure, and yeah, they're they're they're talking about why they're
jaded when it comes to relationships, and Sarah's reason is
because her sister fell through some ice twenty years ago.

Speaker 6 (51:32):
Sure, not connected, don't see the connection.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Really, She's like, and I'm still not over it, and
that's why I don't date seriously, Like start again. Your
sister fell through ice.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
A connect It hard to connect the dots. But anyway,
they wake up the next day, they have a nice
morning together, they kiss on the lips, and then they
part ways. Then Sarah sees her friend Casey, who mentions
that she went out with and slept with that sleazy

(52:04):
guy Burn notice after all thank you aka Vance, and
Vance mentions the date doctor to Casey before leaving, because
Hitch is known around town as this date doctor guy. Again,
he's famous, just like Spider Man is. And Sarah hears

(52:27):
this and she's like, hmm, date doctor, what's going on there?
So she approaches Vance to be like, hey, who's that
dating coach? You hired because I want to write a
column about him. However, she does not connect the dots.
She doesn't realize it's Hitch because she does not know
what Hitch actually does. She only knows that Hitch is

(52:48):
a consultant, like a very vague consultant guy, and she
knows one of his allergies, right, So she gets the
date doctor's card from Vance. That night, Allegra and Albert
go to a basketball game together and he's like, is

(53:10):
this a date and she's like, tee maybe, And Sarah
is there with her colleague taking photos and stuff. And
at the end of the night, when Albert is dropping
Allegra off, it's time to put Hitch's ninety slash ten

(53:30):
percent kissing roll of thumb to the test, and he
almost chickens out, but then he goes for it, and
then Albert and Allegra kiss on the lips. Everyone's kissing now.
And the next day, Hitch meets up with yet another
new client. But wait, it's Sarah's colleague. She staged this

(53:55):
so she could find out who the date doctor is
and what his deal is, and then she discovered that
it's Hitch. Oh NOI, and she's like, oh, this is
my boyfriend or whatever. But she but she wants to
move forward with the story she's writing about him. But
now she hates Hitch as a romantic partner.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
And so she does something that I feel like happens
a lot in.

Speaker 10 (54:21):
Round Comms, and I know what it's trying to accomplish spiritually,
but I always find it so bizarre where it's just like, oh,
you hurt me, so I'm just gonna show up and
get really drunk and be weird and go whoo and
then Lee you're like, except this changes the narrative because
he throws a bowl of lettuce at her.

Speaker 6 (54:40):
Well, I also want to point out, uh, and that
is true. I also want to point out that I
don't like films or and this is my biggest problem
with Cobra Kai the show. I don't like anything that
could be resolved with a conversation. I don't like that
being a major plot point. Yeah, but it's basically if
you ask one question, this would be resolved, and instead

(55:01):
there's only assumptions made. Because that feels like weak writing
to me. It feels like you you're basically not You
need to give me a reason why they can't have
the conversation that would resolve this. But if you show
up at his house on the date, just ask the question.
You could ask right there, be direct. And that's another
reason why this movie is too long, because that should

(55:22):
have probably just been combined into the next scene when
you actually ask thee.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
When they have the confrontation, Yes, why are they doing?

Speaker 11 (55:30):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Yes, I totally agree. I don't ever like that as
a writing choice. It always feels so contrived to me,
And I like, sure people do make assumptions and get
mad at people, and that's that's kind of reflective of
real life, but never in the way that it's depicted
in rom coms.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
But there's like a ways to do that that are
like more I don't know, like whatever, Like every Shakespeare
comedy is like the information gets back to Hitch from
someone else in a weird way or a new per
like maybe maybe Cresida comes back, like you know, add
someone or something into it. If that scene, if we
need this to be two scenes instead of one for

(56:10):
some reason, Yeah, she can't just go to his house
and say nothing. I know, it's so frustrating, especially if
she's drunk. Of course you would say it, you.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Know, when I do buy. It is in Shrek one
when Shrek overhears Fiona being like, how could anyone ever
love such a hideous beast? And she's talking about herself,
but he thinks she's talking about him, so he's sad.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
But then the confrontation happens in the next scene. Yeah,
like the next time they see each other, he's like, well,
I guess you don't fuck with Shreks. I guess. And
then that's also the point in the Broadway musical where
he sings the best song in the musical.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Whoa.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
It's called build a wall, Okay, an emotional wall.

Speaker 6 (56:52):
I was gonna say, build that wall is not a
popular song.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yeah, it was written in two thousand and eight.

Speaker 6 (56:58):
It was written I'll tell you that, okay.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
So yeah, So Sarah goes to Hitch's place and refuses
to be direct and to actually have a conversation with him.
She does just say like, I know all about your
skeazy job by bitch, and then she storms out and
she publishes a story about him, painting him as a
guy who teaches men how to be pick up artists,

(57:26):
with a headline that something like Hitch can get you
into bed with the likes of Allegra Cole with a
picture of Albert and Allegra, which humiliates both of them
as well as Hitch. So he goes to a speed
dating event that Sarah is at with her friend Casey

(57:47):
and tries to explain himself, and Sarah is like, I
don't want to talk to you. I want to protect
women from guys like you, and they argue, and Casey
then finds out that Hitch is the date doctor guy
who she thinks told BYRN notice to and pardon my expression,
hit it and quit it with her.

Speaker 6 (58:09):
I do not part in your expression.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Will I'm only.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Quoting Hitch earlier in the movie or whatever whoever says
that line understood. But anyway, Hitch is like wrong, Vance
is a pig, and I refuse to work with him.
Get your facts right?

Speaker 6 (58:30):
And then he storms, Can I can I just point
out my biggest problem with the movie is right here,
because there's a whole scene in there in which she
talks to her editor of a newspaper. She talks to
her editor of a newspaper who gives her permission to
run the story even though he's like, I don't think
you should because it'll blow up your life and your relationship.

(58:51):
But what he does not do is do what an
editor is supposed to do, which is get her to
fact check this story and talk to all of yours.
And if she would have done that and had the conversation,
she would have had the information already, which I know
doesn't work in the movie world. But that's another thing
that gets me about lazy writing, which is to say,

(59:12):
this woman is a good reporter, and you're telling me
she didn't just ask him, Hey, this for the story.
Even as a reporter, that's all you had to do.
And so when he shouts that information at her, I
feel like the look on her face is like, is
like kind of presented as I feel dumb in this moment,
But I also wanted to be like, you should also
feel like a bad reporter who's not going to at

(59:33):
your job, and your editor should be fired, because that
would have been basic reporting at that point to say, oh,
you got to go ask so and so about the question.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Yeah, I mean, it's like the only excuse I can
think of is like, I don't know, I mean, I
don't know what the standards are for tabloid reporting, and
it's like it seems like, this is what she does.
She this is what she would normally do, is she's
not doing it now, so it makes her look kind
of like weird and incompetent in a way that's confusing.
And also, I mean this is addressed later, but it's
weird because it's true that was a really nasty piece

(01:00:04):
of reporting she did. It's very disingenuous. When she's like,
I'm doing this to protect women. I'm like, weird because
you seem to actively be humiliating one. So it's like, well, no,
you're like, I know you don't want your friend to
get fucked over, but you don't really seem to have
a vested interest in protecting other women outside of the
scope of you and your friend. But then Hitch presented,

(01:00:25):
He's like, no, I do noble. My job is noble.
He's talking like he's like a nurse. I'm like, well,
this is a bit of an overstatement of like I
work for good and I'm a good guy and I've
never given bad advice, and that is not really pushed
back again for the rest of the movie, and you're like, well,

(01:00:47):
you're not a bad guy, but you give a lot
of bad advice, Like this is a It's weird how
I mean, you know, I'm happy when people are proud
of what they do, but like he shouldn't be that proud.
He's like, I didn't work with one pervert. How could
you say that about me? Like you work with a
lot of scumbags.

Speaker 6 (01:01:06):
I don't know, you're right, I think though the anger,
like I feel like the character's anger came from a
good place. However, the film thinks that Hitch is a
good guy in the way that we've come to understand,
like the good guy meaning doesn't necessarily mean that you're
not dangerous or you're not contributing to the negative aspects

(01:01:26):
of patriarchy in a very specific way. Without that awareness,
everything you say is absolutely right. It's like, hey, yeah,
you're you think that what you're doing is noble, but
it is a little borderline unless if you're talking to
people just trying to boost their confidence, but you're not
even having the nuance to understand the difference between like
building up a man's confidence to feel good talking to

(01:01:48):
a woman versus teaching men tricks on how to get
women to interact with them so that they can trap
them in a relationship, which because.

Speaker 12 (01:01:57):
It's like, if you go back to the beginning of
the movie, he's literally kind of like playing god where
he like steals a dog.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
And we'll talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Like, you can't be that proud of that job. I
know it makes you a lot of money, obviously, but
like you can't pretend that that is like this is
the most noble profession he's Yeah, he's acting like he's
a teacher. It's like, Hitch, you're good at what you do,
but chill.

Speaker 6 (01:02:25):
You're not a central personnel. Sorry, that's my last one.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
No, no, neither. I mean this we're looking in many
such cases my own relationship and like these are non
essential jobs and that's okay, but let's acknowledge that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
And I'm like, what is his rate if like a
guy goes to hire him, He's like one hundred thousand
dollars please, Like it has to be so much for
him to afford.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Especially if he life calls it at three dates.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
I know, Like it's not like he has these guys
on retainer, Like, yeah, it's a very short term thing. Anyway,
is mad at Sarah's bad journalism, and so now everyone
is sad and alone, Hitch and Sarah and Allegra, and Albert.

(01:03:13):
They're all experiencing the end of act to low point
of the movie, and then Sarah goes to Hitch to
apologize for having the wrong idea about him and hurting him,
but he's like, psh you didn't hurt me because I
don't have feelings to even hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Actually, bye, and then he jogs away, which just feels
kind of weirdly impotent. After that, he someone jogging away
from a confrontation is just like, all right, man, yeah,
you're doing great.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Right, And then Albert shows up to Hitch's place to
be like, I'm so sad. Can you please fix this
situation with Allegra because he's still hopelessly in love with her.
But then he realizes that Hitch doesn't really even believe
in the things that he's telling men as far as
like putting yourself out there to try to find true love,

(01:04:09):
because Hitch is so guarded and he has so many
walls up. He's a modern day Shrek basically true.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
He's going to build a wall.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
He has built a wall.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
It doesn't sound, it doesn't yeah, which it's possible.

Speaker 6 (01:04:25):
Expression he does say something that I really like in
this scene Kevin James Albert Brinneman says something I really like,
which is he says, if this is the only way
that I could stay connected with her, well, then this
is why I have to be talking about feeling miserable
that he's not with her. And I felt like that
was for me a very romantic like phrase. I remember
I dated a woman once and we broke up. We

(01:04:46):
were together for a while, we broke up, and she left.
She went to she left the country, like to go
to Canada for a month, and while she was gone,
I would write her letters that I didn't send. I
gave them to her later, But at the time I
wrote her letters and I realized that writing the letters,
because I was like we weren't in communication any of
that made me feel closer to her. And I feel
like that feeling of I felt very like closely connected

(01:05:10):
to that feeling of like, man, this feeling of despair
kind of becomes a comfort when it still feels like
it attaches you to a person. Now, there's ways in
which it's unhealthy and not good, but I don't feel
like he was in an unhealthy place when he said that,
which I really appreciated. A movie like this having just
like a little gem like that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Yeah, and it's like you get in that conversation because
obviously Hit just reactive with like denial and anger and
all of this stuff. But in the Albert character, he's like,
I'm sad and I'm feeling it too, which is again
it's like not something you see very often from from
a man in a rom com. It's like, I feel

(01:05:49):
like you mostly get the Hitch reaction.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Right, which is like again reflective of a lot of
men who have been conditioned to close themselves off and
not process their emotions. But I do like that contrast
between the Albert character, who is very freely feeling his
feelings and feeling his sadness and expressing them versus Hitch,

(01:06:13):
who is either unwilling or unable to do that. But
then he realizes, I think, through interacting with Albert, like
maybe I should try to feel my emotions. And then
he learns from Albert, and that's also an encouraging thing
to see in a wrong come from two thousand and five.

(01:06:34):
But anyway, so Hitch is sad, but he's pretending not
to be. Then Albert goes after Allegra himself to try
to win her back because he's like, I don't really
trust Hitch to do this, But Hitch beats him to
it and shows up on Allegra's yacht and he's daughter of.

Speaker 6 (01:06:55):
A billionaire Jamie.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Yes, it's true.

Speaker 6 (01:06:59):
Mast.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Now Allegra is unhappy because she thinks Hitch encouraged Albert
to manipulate her and do these specific things to put
her at ease, such as dance like a buffoon, knowing
that she can't dance, and Hitch is like, no, I
had no hand in that. That was all Albert. Wait

(01:07:20):
a minute, did that work on you?

Speaker 11 (01:07:23):
Do?

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
I not even understand my own job that I invented.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
I think this is an effective scene. But aleg does
talk to Hitch as if he is a wizard he
can read her thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
I was like, no, hell could he?

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
I mean, to be fair, he can figure out who
your serial killer great grandfather is. But that that appears
to be the limits of his powers.

Speaker 6 (01:07:46):
Sure right, basic google searches appear to be the limits
of his power.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
She's referencing something that happened to her once when she
was twelve, like, how would Hitch have access this information?

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
And then Albert shows up and he and Allegra kiss
and makeup. Then Hitch goes to Sarah to try to
win her back, and he's pretty terrible at it, and
then we get this reveal that she's there with another man,
and she walks away and gets in the car in
a scene that mirrors the time that he got his

(01:08:20):
heart broken in college by Cressida, only this time Hitch
does go after the woman he.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Loves still very aggressively.

Speaker 6 (01:08:29):
Yeah, for sure, the way that I could not endorse
Bill Scarsgard.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Doing no nor any man throwing himself on the hood
of your car. Heat up.

Speaker 6 (01:08:41):
You got to back up to go over him again.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
Too, make sure, yes, yes, yes, But anyway, Hitch professes
his love for Sarah and they also kiss and make up,
and it turns out the other man is Sarah's sister's husband.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
And why does she not just say that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
I don't know where?

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Come on, Tom, I'm always acting that with my brother
in law. Come on, Tom, really weird.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
But this is like when Hitch finally learns that there
are no rules or basic principles to dating. And the
movie ends at Albert and Allegra's wedding. The cast dances
to now that we found love by Heavy d and

(01:09:32):
the Boys, but I think it should be a Will
Smith end credits rap. So this they dance too.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
I thought about this because it's weird that it doesn't happen.
You're and this is around the time where it doesn't
happen anymore. Yeah, like he's I think the last one
I was able to find is Men in Black two.
I mean, obviously he does the shitty Aladdin movie, but
I'm gonna not count that. But he does he did
do a song for Men in Black two Black It's
coming nod your head.

Speaker 6 (01:10:01):
I remember the worst song it is. They tried to
make fetch happen. It did not. The first one was fine.
I could still sing the first one right now, but
it's probably because it's attached to another song. But this
new one, no, no stop it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
But what's weird is there was a Will Smith single
that came out the same week Hitch came out. Switch
the song where he goes you know that one.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
I don't know this one at all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Well, I just performed it so well, so true.

Speaker 6 (01:10:32):
Now that's stuck in my head. Why would you do
this to me?

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
That was like, I mean, I was in middle school
and this movie came out and they were playing Will
Smith's Switch at the middle school in dances. But I
looked it up just to be like, why isn't Switching
that I feel like it was the same time. Hitch
came out on February eleventh. Switch came out February fifteenth,
and yet it is not in the movie. It's really bizarre.

(01:10:57):
I wonder why.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
And it's the rhyme sing this in the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
They're like, oh, we we have a big budget, we
don't have to use Switch.

Speaker 6 (01:11:07):
It's okay, we'll license something. Don't even worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
It's not his best.

Speaker 6 (01:11:11):
Bill board chats.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
It's not his best, but I do. I mean, whenever
I hear Switch, I can't hear it neutrally because it
like I'm just consumed with like twelve year old anxiety,
being like I'm not going to dance with anyone. That's
what the song ignites in me. But anyways, Yeah, it's
weird that there's not a Will Smith closer song because
he had one ready. But it seems like maybe they
just just didn't want it want it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Yeah, Well, let's take another quick break and we'll come
back to discuss, and we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Or where to begin? Okay, Ronald, is there anything that
jumps out to you? Where would you like to start? Well?

Speaker 6 (01:11:57):
I think generally there's there's a pushback in this movie.
There's a way that this movie is the ways that
it feels progressive is that in some ways it feels
like it's grappling with that idea that I said before
about vacillating between a pickup artist's manual versus a guide
to just talking to a human woman. It's at its

(01:12:19):
worst again when it's a pickup movie, when it's just like,
this is how you pick up a woman. But then
when it gets to the heart of it, and Kevin
James and Will Smith, Albert Brenneman and Alex Hichens have
that conversation where he's essentially saying to him, you don't
even believe in love, you don't believe in these parts
of it, And you realize that Albert Brenneman has just

(01:12:40):
been being himself the whole film, despite what he's being
told to do. Would you boil it down to those
basic elements. I think that's what works for me in
the film is to say that you met someone y'all
connected and it worked out because you were being yourself
and she was being herself and it was good relationship.

(01:13:01):
But I just feel like the movie wants to push
and pull at that in this way that the Hollywood
effect makes the message worse and it pushes it into
a different category. And also a man wrote this and
a man directed this, like two different men, so through
that lens, I wonder if they were really aware of
that grappling, if no women were involved in the production,

(01:13:26):
you know what I mean, right exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
Yeah, It's it's interesting because it feels like, yeah, this
movie is like we've been talking about this whole time,
doing more than you would expect it to. I feel
like it.

Speaker 13 (01:13:38):
Is like I don't know, like it is encouraging men
to just be themselves basically, and which is a generally
good message.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
And then like I don't hate the message, it's just
all of the like it feels very studio notesy. The
things I don't like about this movie, yes, where it
feels like very tacked on, like, oh, we have this actor,
so we should do this to them, or you know,
all of these these rom com stock actors with like
the queer coded co worker, some of the fat phobic

(01:14:11):
things that Kevin James is subjected to even.

Speaker 8 (01:14:13):
Though if you look at the story, it's flawed, but
it feels like it's hardest more in the right place
that a lot of rom coms, which is weird, So
I didn't expect it same.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Even in that first opening montage with voiceover where Hitch
is going through the quote unquote basic principles of how
to win a woman kind of thing. Within that, it's
oscillating back and forth between vague pick up artistry advice,
but also like treat a woman like a person and

(01:14:48):
actually talk to her and then listen to her and
then respond to her like she's a person, you know.
So like the first few clips we see are the
like weird, like manipulate a woman into thinking, like stage
her dog getting run over by a cab and pretend
like you saved her dog so that she'll fall in

(01:15:08):
love with you. Like that's obviously like really manipulative, gross,
icky things. And then he's saying things like if a
woman rejects you and says that she's focusing on her career,
she's lying. And women don't even know what they want
until a man comes along and tells her, and so

(01:15:28):
like it's stuff like that, But then a few moments
later he says, like, don't use what you don't have.
If you're shy, be shy. If you're outgoing, be outgoing.
In other words, like don't fake it and try to
be someone you're not. Be yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
I'm so curious, like what the drafts of this looked like,
because yes, I'm wondering how because this is the game,
the book by Neil Strass, Because unfortunately, I've done a
lot of research on mans your shit pooa stuff and
listened to for episodes of sixteen, and I did last
year listen to a lot of accounts of men who

(01:16:04):
were into like tried to use the game because they
were nervous around women, and then grew up basically and
realized that it's a joke. Which there are a lot
of people like that, thankfully. And then there are the
people who've had spent the last twenty years doubling and
tripling down and becoming history's greatest monsters. Correct, But there
are people It is interesting to listen to people who

(01:16:25):
were drawn to this intentionally because it's made I mean
like it's kind of what Hitch is doing, but also
kind of not what he's doing, which is why it's confusing,
but like basically targeting insecure men and promising that there
is a recipe for success. If you just do la
la la la la, you will be successful. And what

(01:16:46):
the game does and what Hitch does sometimes not always,
which is what makes this movie so hard to talk about,
is like, not only is it raising the confidence of men,
it's raising the con men at the expense of women.
And that's the real issue. It's not that men having

(01:17:07):
you know, being self possessed and having confidence is a
bad thing. It's not. It's that a lot of these
subcultures were like, oh, it's because you are genetically superior,
and women are animals who don't understand themselves, and so
you can't trust a word they say, here's forty five steps,
including wearing the ugliest fucking hat you've ever seen, that

(01:17:28):
is going to fix this. And I'm wondering how aware
the like distribution and marketing was aware of that being
a popular thing at this time and not wanting to
completely lean away from it. I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:17:44):
I believe that if this movie were a person, that
this would be a person that we would be fine with.
In twenty twenty five, meaning that they would learn and
grow because there's enough. I'm thinking about all the things
that I knew in a binary when I was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty,
twenty one, twenty two whatever, in my late teens early twenties,
all the things that I knew in a binary, like,

(01:18:05):
well that's not right. Oh that's right, Oh that's not right.
That's how I kind of did everything, but the nuance
wasn't there yet. And I feel like this film knows
like there's parts of this where you say fact and
it's like women don't know what they want, and I'm like, ah,
I don't know about that. Like that's like if you
said some people don't know what they want, and maybe

(01:18:26):
our job as people is to like to continue to
let introduce them to new experiences and allow them to
become the person that they are going to be. But
that's not What I just said is like is very
nuanced and not something that you could just throw into
a film, you know. So I feel like that's where
you're right that like, at worst, when you think about
like the pickup artist stuff that's in there, it doesn't
feel as nearly married to that as it does when

(01:18:48):
it gets to the full point of the movie at
the end, which is that like, hey, there are no rules,
you know, love people, be yourself, which is feels good,
like a solid message, which is basically the only reason
while we could watch this at twenty twenty five and
not just throw this movie out with the trash, you know,
I mean the three of us, like we could have
just thrown this movie away, and we didn't.

Speaker 11 (01:19:08):
You know, because it lands somewhere that that is like okay,
yea cool, you know, And I do like that both.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
So again, there's stuff going on here, but I do
like that both of the characters Hitch and Sarah are
like are both flawed, genuinely flawed, because I feel like
there's it's so often in rom coms where like it
is a woman who is inexplicably perfect but sometimes trips
and falls, who ends up with a man who's more mean,

(01:19:42):
yes than flawed. However, there's a lot of baggage that
comes with that, because yes, Sarah is flawed in like
she's her job is pretty sky they both have pretty
scummy jobs. Yeah, so maybe they really found each other
where they're like the ethics are all over the place.
Will Smith throwing himself in the hood of a car
as a grand romantic gesture. Question, I don't think so.

(01:20:04):
A lot of the early courting is a little stocky.
And then you have I think that one of the
things that really sticks out, and in a way that's like,
I don't know, I'm almost able to like laugh it
off now. But the two thousand and five y casual
sex is not a thing for women. And if any

(01:20:24):
woman is like I'm not interested in a serious relationship,
it's like, well, because you haven't been dicked down with
the right dick yet or what like, which is sort
of hitches whole business. Is that being true? But also
the world of this movie that is true.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Yeah, this movie is very like heteronormative monogamy, normative serious
relationship is the only way to go anything else. It's
shallow and yucky. And so those are very obviously like
two thousand and five sentiments. There's another thing that rubs
me around, that rubs me the wrong way about the

(01:21:03):
sort of ideology that this movie is operating within, which
is a line that Hitch says at the end when
they're at the like speed dating thing, and he says
something like, no, my job isn't to encourage men to
just like fuck a woman and leave.

Speaker 6 (01:21:21):
It's to when you perform this movie, I only want
to watch your performance on it. I don't even want
to watch the movie anywhere. I want to watch you
perform the book.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
I'll do a solo show reenactment thing. But yeah, Hitch
is like, my job is to get women to get
out of their own head and out of their own
way so that they'll give great guys like Albert a
fighting chance. And basically what he's implying is women are

(01:21:52):
shallow and again, they don't know what they want, and
so it's my job to help these men get women
to see that they're being superficial and they just need
to give men a chance. Like forget about their compatibility,
forget about women's autonomy over who they are and are
not sexually interested in. That doesn't matter. What matters is

(01:22:14):
that Hitch is there to help his clients teach these
women a lesson in how to not be so shallow.
And even though Hitch like unlearns stuff by the end
and he realizes, oh, a lot of what I was
saying was kind of bullshit, and I was wrong to
give a lot of the advice that I gave. But

(01:22:34):
I feel like the movie lands on the side of
this particular point because we have Albert Brenneman ending up
with this, you know, gorgeous bombshell woman.

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):
And like, you're gonna tell me he's not remotely shallow.
Everyone is shallow during this movie, Like there's yeah, it
doesn't feel like the onus, and Hitch kind of says
that directly to Allegra wheor he challenges her on that
of like, oh, well, if I didn't have him yell
at you at work, would you have ever noticed him?
And then she's like yes, eventually, well maybe it's not.

(01:23:10):
And it's just like everyone's show. I don't know, Like
it just feels like he's quicker to turn things on
the woman in terms of yet like not knowing what
she wants, and if she does know what she wants,
she's baby shallow and there are shallow women. There's shallow
people everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
It's of all genders.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
Yeah, very prescriptive.

Speaker 6 (01:23:33):
It's also necessary like when you when you say that,
like the implication that I need to create an event
for y'all to talk, it's like, yeah, maybe she maybe
she never notices Albert. But I mean, the only crime
of that is that we don't get to see Hitch
the movie, like, and I'm saying that like as a
metal problem. That's not what is the actual problem of
her not meeting Albert Brenneman, Like I'm sure if there's

(01:23:56):
another Albert Brennaman out there, she would be given the
same series of circumstances she would meet them. But he's
making it like this is a good man, and I'm
going to force to show you why it's a good man,
which is largely a lot of the cultural commentary that
we have now in which people are like trying to
force each other to see, well, this is a good man,
or this is a good woman, or this is a
good partner in a very prescriptive and saying this is

(01:24:20):
what you should be liking, when I mean the truth is,
we know, like the heart wants what it wants, and
the tech boxes that you have in your life rarely
match the person that you end up falling in love
with or want to be long term partnered with or whatever.
And I feel like again that grappling is not entirely

(01:24:41):
there in this film, which makes it say and I
think something that something that makes it probably would have
beaten them better, would have been some sort of a
failure where hitchkind say sorry, guess she just didn't like you.
If that would have happened in the film, then at
least we know like, hey, we did the thing, we
did your bag of tricks, we gave you the confidence,
and she still didn't like you. If that had been

(01:25:02):
in the movie, then I'll be like, oh, this is
with intention. They're actually grappling with this thing, because at
least they're giving the women agency to say like, yeah, great,
you found my dog. I never want to talk to
you again, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
And then also, I mean, specifically with the Albert Brenneman situation,
what does he like about Allegra? We never find out
aside from us being able to assume that she's beautiful
and he's attracted to her.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
But beyond that, it's almost like he's being shallow. Yeah, right, that,
which is fine, just admit, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:25:40):
So there are these problems, but I do think that
the movie's heart is in the right place in a
way that for example, what women want, No, that movie's
heart is in the exact wrong place.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
So yeah, because Hitch genuinely grows as a character, which
you cannot say for most men in rom coms definitely,
or most characters has. Honestly, there's one thing I was
not aware was a part of the conversation around this movie.
But it's a conversation we have had about Will smith
movies on this show before.

Speaker 1 (01:26:11):
I think I know where you're going with this.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
Yes, is there is a casting conversation around this movie.

Speaker 6 (01:26:19):
Yes, I know this now too.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Yeah. So I was not aware, and thankfully scholarly journal
Wikipedia brought me up to speed and there's a lot
of information about this. But basically Will Smith said that
Eva Mendez was cast and or offered this lead role
because the producers of the movie were worried about the
public's reaction if the part of Sarah was played by

(01:26:45):
a white actress, which is of course praying on all
of these anxieties around on one side, an interracial relationship
between a black actor and a white actress specifically, which
we could get we've obviously talked about many times on
the show. And hopefully you live in the world and
you're aware of how frequently black men are stereotyped as

(01:27:09):
being predatory towards white women, specifically but they also didn't
want to cast a black actor in this movie because
then it would be perceived as a movie. And then
it is the feeling of Hollywood to this day for
the most part, that they can't promote the movie in
the way that they want. They can't promote it to
a general audience, which is their way of saying a

(01:27:31):
white audience. And so the way that they split the
difference here, and there's a quote from Will Smith. I'm
not stating this is fact, but by casting a Latina
actress in this role, that is their way of getting
around it being either an interracial relationship between a black
actor and a white actress, but it's also not quote
unquote a black movie, and that way it's okay for

(01:27:55):
general audiences. Of course, none of this is Eva Mendus's problem,
but I want to share Will Smith. I'm not sure
exactly when he gave this interview, but he said of
this casting choice, he said, there's a sort of accepted
myth that if you have two black actors, a male
and a female in the lead of a romantic comedy,

(01:28:16):
that people around the world don't want to see it.
We spend fifty something million making this movie so the
idea of a black actor and a white actress comes up.
That'll work around the world, but it's a problem in
the US. There has been a lot written about this.
I've looked up some other examples where clearly this is
like well trodden ground but in the year sort of

(01:28:37):
leading up to Hitch and these are examples I wasn't
aware of because I was not alive. Bravely, but in
nineteen eighty nine there was an interracial relationship between a
black man and a white woman on All My Children,
and it got an actor fired because his character became
so unpopular. Allegedly, there was an example on a different

(01:28:59):
world where this also happened, where there was like boycotts
of the show. And so this is I mean, obviously
the history of interracial relationships outside of Hollywood has been
so horrifically policed and continues to be in Hollywood. But
where we talked about it before was in Bad.

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
Boys one and Men in Black and Men in Black,
because both of those movies have a white woman cast
as what would be the love interest to the Will
Smith character in probably any other movie, but because it's
a black male protagonist as like the lead of the
movie and a white woman. There are no on screen

(01:29:41):
kisses or any It's.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
Not it doesn't actually, yeah, and this movie is very
much a part of that same conversation.

Speaker 6 (01:29:50):
It's I mean, it's problematic in many ways, and this
is like obviously a relic of those times. But there's
also a way in which we especially when it comes
to interracial relationships between black people and white people specifically,
because this is still an interracial relationship, like we talk
about what's going on in a hitch, but like specifically

(01:30:10):
with white people and black people specifically. Like there's a
conversation that happens, especially amongst the black community about what
this means, especially for black men and white women. But
also what's happening right now with Love Island and Nicolandria,
which is a black woman and a white man. Another
conversation is also being formed within the black community. But

(01:30:32):
when it comes to the screen, when it comes to Hollywood,
there's a way in which the anticipation of what is
going to be well received or not is really a
reflection of our actual behavior. Because I do believe that
if they cast a black woman in this role, all
of a sudden, the soundtrack is different to this film.

(01:30:53):
The way that their marketing is entirely differently is different,
and there's people are that will look at this and say, oh,
I don't know if that for me. But if we
actually went down into a checklist, like even something like Hancock,
in which Will Smith is theoretically partnered with charlie' Starren
and there they broke up, they're no longer in a
relationship in the film, so we don't get any steamy

(01:31:15):
hot seeds between Charlie Starren and Will Smith, you know
what I mean. But then if you start going down
a checklist of all these Will Smith, who is a
light skinned black man, the colorism guilds in there too,
if you start to think about that and think about
who they pair him with, then it really starts declare
to be like man. So is this on us, the
viewing audience or is this on Hollywood? Who's saying based

(01:31:37):
on your be But I feel like Hollywood say was
based on your behavior. We don't think you're gonna watch
this movie, which we'd have to do more examples of
that being the case. But it's frustrating to say, like,
you put another black person in this now it's a
black film, and we can't. We can't watch it anymore.
The last thing I'll say is the studio covers this
very well. The studio on Apple TV Plus with Seth Rogen,

(01:31:59):
it covers this very well. What it talks about. There's
an episode about them making a kool Aid movie and
they talk about race casting specifically there, which I encourage
everyone to go watch because they talk about the very
nuanced way this idea of too many black folks makes
it a black film. Now can we market it? Which, yes,
you can is the real answer. But I think it's

(01:32:19):
something that it's a conversation worth continuing.

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
I would say absolutely yes. Before I knew about this
very deliberate casting choice, I was just watching the movie.
I was like, Wow, unlike a lot of rom coms,
and specifically romcoms set in New York City, this movie
does not center whiteness. There is this interracial, multi ethnic

(01:32:45):
relationship happening. But I did I was like, I bet
that was a very deliberate choice. Did the reading about
it found out? My suspicions were very much confirmed, and
I just had anticipated that they were very deliberately making
these casting choices to make it quote unquote palatable to

(01:33:06):
a white audience, and that worked because the movies what
the third highest grossing rom coong of all time. It
grossed three hundred and seventy one million dollars at the
box office. You know, this was a very deliberate marketing
slash investment choice.

Speaker 12 (01:33:24):
Well, and but the thing I find where the industry
says these things as if this is going to be true,
And we've seen so many times that the way that
marketing campaigns for Hollywood movies are designed are not necessarily
based around reality. They're based around the prejudices all of
the people who dictate.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
What happens in the marketing campaign. And so while it's like,
I like there is some gray area here of like
if there were a black actress playing Sarah and they
just committed to marketing it the same amout as they
would if Eva Mendez is in that role, it's very
possible the movie would still do very well. And like

(01:34:07):
that doesn't preclude racist audience members who are going to
pigeonhole this movie as a quote unquote black movie. But
I also feel like that that kind of stuff is
sometimes used by marketing people to say, well, we had
to and it's and it's the audience's fault, and it's like, well,
there's a lot more going on than it's not it.

(01:34:29):
The audience is definitely a part, a huge part of it,
but you can't say that the audience is forcing your hand.
The audience doesn't know until you market it to them.

Speaker 6 (01:34:37):
I would strongly encourage both of y'all and the listening
audience to check out. There's an episode of the Town
where in which they talk about Centers specifically, and I'm
forgetting the guest's name who was on there, but fought
tooth and nail to specifically say what happens when you
market films that are black and what that looks like

(01:34:59):
in terms of World War gross versus domestic gross, which, like,
it's a conversation that is still being had even right now, because,
as most of us know, when Sinners came out, Variety
puts out this piece in which it's like Sinner's had
a great opening weekend, but profitability is still very far away,
in which everyone's like, why are you talking about the
movie in this way? Like you're basically like like hamstringing

(01:35:22):
it for some reason instead of talking about the path
that it could go. And of course Centners goes on
to break records and do very well and make a
lot of money at the box office, especially for a
RAT and R movie. But you're right, like the marketing
when you talk about actually spending the money, you do
see that there are returns that come. Even if it's
considered to be a black film or even a woman

(01:35:45):
film or a queer film, you still have to spend
the money to get people to see it. And I
think there's like there's this shirking of duties that happens
amongst Hollywood studios because of that assumption, well, we're not
gonna spend the money because they're not gonna come, Like, well,
if you spend the money, they're definitely not gonna come.

Speaker 2 (01:36:01):
If you don't spend the money, no one's gonna come.
And then you're just gonna blame it on the audience
again exactly. I feel like we're in a big period
of that in streaming as well, where there's a lot
of talk around like, well we we diversified our streaming product,
but now no one's watching it. It's like because you
don't promote it the masses.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
I'm excited to listen to that episode though, of the
Town on Sinners, because we'll be covering that movie pretty soon.

Speaker 6 (01:36:26):
So definitely put this in your research.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Cool for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:36:30):
What else?

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
What else we got? What else we got?

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
Hitch, Grandma, We've got the rampant heteronormativity of this movie.
There are a few queer characters, and I believe all
of them are identifiably queer and not just queer coded,
based on usually one tiny line of dialogue where you
have Jeff, who is Sarah's colleague, played by Nathan Lee Graham,

(01:36:58):
who I recognize from Zoolander. Of course, there's a part
where he's meeting with Hitch, pretending to hire him, and
then Sarah's other colleague is like, wow, Jeff's actually managing
to play it straight, and so, oh, I missed that.
There's that thing that I guess identifies him as a
gay man, and.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):
He put it's always in the blink, and you miss
it exact for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:37:23):
And then there's Raoul, the doorman of Hitch's building, played
by Molick Patolli aka Jonathan from thirty Rock.

Speaker 2 (01:37:32):
Yes, Oh my gosh, and they're they're making him do
an accent.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
And play a character whose ethnicity is not his at all. Yeah,
because he is Indian American and the character he's playing
I think is suggested to be LATINX.

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:47):
I feel like there was just like one of those
classic Hollywood casting you know, racist brown people. They're all
the same, right, no one will notice the difference in
any case. The character of Raoul says that he needs
to bring his partner a mirror somewhere amazing. And then
there is Maggie aka magnus Alegra's best friend, who I

(01:38:11):
think this one is a bit more coded than explicit.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):
Yeah. He asks if Kevin James is gay, which is
honestly maybe. I was like, oh, I guess this character
is supposed to be gay.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
I didn't, That's what I interpreted to.

Speaker 2 (01:38:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:38:25):
No, I think you're right. I just it was a
messy one. Yeah, they're all messy one. They're all for sure,
they're all messy. The movie does not care about their
romantic lives at all. It only cares about the large
number of straight people's romantic lives. Hitch does not work
with queer people. It seems it's only straight men who
want to date women. All three of these queer characters

(01:38:49):
are only in the movie basically to help the straight
people or to be overly concerned about the romantic lives
of their straight friends. So it's, you know, the classic
two thousand's era queer representation you see in a wrong
com I mean, yeah, it's a barely representation for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:39:09):
And then you have the rampant homophobia of Hitch's character
when he freaks out when Albert kisses him, which we've
touched on a little bit, but again, it's just like
the classic no homo, oh my god, a man kissed me.
I have to spit in like dry heave and all

(01:39:31):
that kind of thing, because it's so gross that he
touched my lips for half a second. But also like,
maybe Albert shouldn't have surprise kissed him. Maybe this whole
ninety ratio is bad and I've been obsessed with it
for twenty years.

Speaker 6 (01:39:49):
Is a problem here?

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think what Hits just learned is that
it's too close. It's too close. But he will not
hes not at a point in his life where he's
ready to reevaluate the system. I do agree with you that, Renald.
I do think that he will grow as a person.
He will as a fictional man, will will grow.

Speaker 6 (01:40:14):
I would imagine Hitch two tackles all of this every
complaint we have, Like there's there's going to be a
main Like the main consulted person would be queer, and
there would be Hitch learning along the way, and he'd
probably have like a woman partner that's helping him. Maybe
Eva Mendez is helping him with his business. Like there's

(01:40:34):
there's going to be They're definitely doing a lot more
in the sequel. I would say, it's demonstrate it. We've
taken a progressive step forward, you know what I mean,
So more of.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
A queer eye energy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, which
is classic television, classic television. I'm afraid to revisit the
old series because I watched it with my mom. I'm like,
I'm sure there's problems, but I loved it so much. Yeah,
And I also I'm like, who knows if we get
Hitch two, I don't know what even Mendes his character

(01:41:02):
is going to do. What with the collapse of journalism.
I think she probably lost her apartment. Unfortunately, she has
a podcasts.

Speaker 6 (01:41:10):
All journalists have podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:41:11):
Now, Yeah, it's Sex and the City to Yeah, yeah,
it's true. As far as the Bechdel test goes, no
question Mark, you say no, I feel like hitch looms
large over every conversation in this movie, or or Albert
I guess as the case.

Speaker 1 (01:41:30):
Maybe yeah, I mean there are scenes where Sarah and
her friend Casey talk, but it's almost always about like
heterosexual dating. So no, And then Allegra, I don't think
talks to any women. If so, it's never a meaningful conversation.
So I think this is a no to the Bechdel test.

Speaker 2 (01:41:51):
Yeah, they did give Sarah a friend, which again is
more than you sometimes guess. But let's talk about the
most important metric to ever exist.

Speaker 1 (01:42:01):
The Bechdel cast nipple scale, in which we rate zero
to five nipples based on examining the movie through an
intersectional feminist lens. I will give this maybe a two
two and a half. It feels like a split down
the middle for me, where again it's leaning into some
pretty formulaic rom com tropes of the time, lots of

(01:42:27):
a woman who's so focused on her career that she
doesn't have time for a boyfriend. Everything we've talked about.
I'll give it two and a half nipples. I'll give them.
I'll give one to Eva Mendez, I will give one
to and the tenant.

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
Yeah, friend of the show apparently.

Speaker 1 (01:42:48):
I don't know how he is as a person or
what his politics are, but he's a frequent director on
the show, so good for him. He's directed some iconic movies.
And then I'll give my half nipple to the impending
draft of Hitch two, which I propose that we all
write together.

Speaker 2 (01:43:09):
Incredible, an extremely hitched movie. Yes, I'll also go two
and a half, which I'm so surprised to hear myself saying, I, Yeah,
I was pleasantly surprised by this movie.

Speaker 14 (01:43:23):
And it is very much plagued with all of the
products of its time gags you would expect in a
movie like this. It's a weird one where I do
believe it's heart is in the right place, but it's still.

Speaker 2 (01:43:37):
Dressed up like every other movie like it of its
time whose heart isn't in the right place. So it's
just a weird watch. But revisiting it, I get why
people like why people still have a lot of love
for this movie. I also think, you know, this is
the highest grossing rom com starring a black actor ever,

(01:43:58):
and that is like a worth celebrating. And yeah, and
I do believe hitch would learn from his experience. I
also don't think Hum and Sarah are gonna stay together,
and I think what they both need is a healthy breakup,
and that is what is going to really set hitch free.
Two and a half nipples. I'm giving them all to

(01:44:22):
Eva Mendez to do with what she pleases.

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):
Yes, Ronald, how about you?

Speaker 6 (01:44:27):
I think I liked it a little bit more than y'all,
but not much more. I'd say three nipples, and I
would give one to the growth of Alex Hitchins, one
to the charm of Alex Brenneman, and I'll probably give
my third nipple to the aesthetic of the film. It

(01:44:48):
felt very much like Ocean's eleven doublewares Prada. You know,
they're very like slick like specific scoring that you hear
and sheen over the film. I really enjoy that, and
it just brings me back to a different era. They
really don't make them like this anymore. But for all
of the reasons that you said, I don't think it

(01:45:09):
could go above three nipples. So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:13):
Thankk you. Yeah, this was so much fun. The HH
episode was everything I dreamed in more.

Speaker 6 (01:45:18):
I'm glad. I'm glad to be.

Speaker 1 (01:45:20):
Here where can people follow your work? Follow you on
social media plug away.

Speaker 6 (01:45:25):
You can follow me on Instagram and threads. That is
where I am the most prolific in my posting at
Oh It's Big Round. That's at O H I T
S B I g R O N, which is also
where you can find me on letterbox and you can
subscribe to my podcast wait for It spelled w E
I g h T and Leaving the Theater where I
review films as I'm walking out of the theater.

Speaker 1 (01:45:48):
Hmmm.

Speaker 2 (01:45:49):
Love that that brocks.

Speaker 1 (01:45:51):
You can follow us mostly on Instagram as well as
our Patreon aka Matreon, where we do two bonus episode
every single month, plus access to the back catalog, all
for five dollars a month. Imagine And with that, should
we leave ninety percent of the way out of this

(01:46:11):
episode and let the listeners leave the other ten percent
and you can do the rest?

Speaker 2 (01:46:17):
Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
hosted and produced by Me Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 1 (01:46:26):
And me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by
Sophie Lichtermann and.

Speaker 5 (01:46:32):
Edited by Caitlyn Durrante.

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):
Ever Heard of Them?

Speaker 1 (01:46:34):
That's me and our logo and merch and all of
our artwork in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftis ever
heard of her?

Speaker 2 (01:46:42):
Oh My God?

Speaker 5 (01:46:44):
And our theme song, by the way, was composed by
Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 1 (01:46:47):
With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

Speaker 5 (01:46:50):
Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only
Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 1 (01:46:55):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
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