Jesus Christ Superstar (1973)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zephynbast start changing
with the Bechdelcast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour, and we're
not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour
in the Midwest and soon covering the Star Wars prequels.
We're gonna just cover all three at once. You know
it's gonna be fine. There's been so much talk about
the prequels over the years, often on podcasts we really like,

(00:37):
often by writers we really like, but never from an
intersectional feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour
to quickly realize why that is.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
So you can see us discuss all three prequels in
one show in fabulous outfits, in wonderful coseplay. You don't
want to miss this. We will be in Indianapolis for
Let's Fest on Saturday, August thirtieth for a matinee show
and then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening

(01:10):
that can't be missed.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Called Jamie Loftus and her pet rock solve the world's
problems in which that will happen.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
I can't wait.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Then the very next day, we are going to Chicago.
You asked, we listened. We will be at the Den
Theater on August thirty. First, that show is going to
start around seven, seven to fifteen pm. It's an evening show,
a sexy little evening show. We're so excited to go
to Chicago and the Den Theater is so beautiful, so
Chicagoans do not miss it.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
And then then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday,
September fourth. I believe that's a seven thirty show, and oh,
we're so excited to be in Madison.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis,
Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September seventh.
That is another evening show. It starts at seven o'clock.
So if you have been one of the many people
asking us to come to your town for the last
ten years we're doing it, we would love to see you.
The shows are super fun. As we've said, if you're

(02:15):
a matron, specifically, if you're a member of our Patroon
aka Matreon. You get a free little gift at the
merch table when you come to say hi after the show.
It's a blast, It's gonna be a super good time.
We love Siena. You can get all tickets at link tree,
slash Bectel cast exqueeze me, We'll see you there.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
Enjoy the episode. Cast Jamie christ superstart. Happy birthday, Jamie.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you. Wow, I'm feeling so christ Like today. I'm
feeling I'm feeling like I'm gonna like do unto others.
That's kind of the vibe for today. I know that
that's OK. He didn't say that, right, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
That's just the golden rule, which.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I feel like, I feel like, you know, I'm sure
he'd agree. Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't be like, no,
nor do not do unto others? Okay, Welcome to my birthday.
Welcome to my birthday.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
I'm happy to be here too. I think maybe I
will actually succeed in going to Knotsberry Farm on my
birthday this year. We'll see I failed last year, but
maybe this is the year.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Can I invite myself? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Because you're a season pass holder, right, Yeah? Yeah, if
we are successful in going, Yeah, we should go with
a damn group because I haven't been in three years.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think it's my new favorite theme park.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's so fun. It's so fun because the theming is
just like, sure, yeah, why not? I walk around and
you're like, hmmm, old timey ghost why not?

Speaker 3 (03:54):
Of course?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Welcome. Okay, so this is my main feed birthday episode.
So if this is your first episode Wild points of Entry,
but for what it's worth, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
My name is Jamie, it's my birthday.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
My name is Caitlin. It's not my birthday.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Brutal, brutal, and that must be hard for you today.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah what if I judas you because I'm resentful that
it's not my birthday.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Well, then you would be low key the coolest character
in the movie Superstar. It's really I will say, Jesus
Christ Superstar a very flawed movie. Will be talking about
it a lot today. But I feel like the movie
is basically like say what you will about Judas, but
he kind of is like the best. I feel like
this movie is like pro Judas.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
I mean, this might be blasphemous.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Judas had a point.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
I was rooting for Judas much more than I was
rooting for Jesus in the context of this movie.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, yes, no, like literally, okay, there's so much Okay,
Jesus Christ Superstar. Oh okay, this is the Bechdel Cast.
This is are intersectional feminist movie podcast, which there actually
is a lot to talk about because we're sort of
talking about Christianity and Judaism writ large. There's so much
to talk about today. So if you don't know what

(05:14):
the Bexwel test is, look it up. You know what.
I'm not your I'm not your fucking mom. It's my birthday. Yeah, okay.
Does the Bible pass the Bexels test? I would wager not,
But let's google it. Oh, let's google it. Oh that's
actually a really good, annoying question.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
I bet it kind of does.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
But it's a long book.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Hopefully, I would say the Bible is not a feminist text.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Certainly not, certainly not. Okay, I'm not the first Oh okay,
the Bible barely passes the Bechdel test, so it gets
a barely pass. To be fair, this is Google AI
that you can't turn off, so it could be wildly
incorrect and just melted an ice cube. While the Book

(05:59):
of Ruth is often cited as a clear example, other
books like Exodus, Mark and Luke are also mentioned as
containing conversations between women about something other than a man. However,
many argue that these instances are sparse and often involve
women talking to men or the topic of conversation indirectly
relates to men. So I would say, maybe it doesn't pass.
This is we've had this. How many times have we

(06:19):
had this conversation where it's like, well, they don't name
a man, but a man is implied, but we're talking
about the ramifications of a man's actions. So yeah, let's
right at the top. Does the Bible pass the backseel test?
Maybe technically, but spiritually no.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Spiritually no, I would say.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Spiritually no. And if that's a hot take to you,
I don't know, turn the show off, turn the show off.
I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's just
get into it, because this is a text. This is
a text. There is so much going on with Jesus
Christ Superstar that I almost regret choosing it. But I
do think this is like my last I think because
I was going through the list of all of our

(06:58):
episodes from the last decade, and I think that this
is the last movie that, like really heavily imprinted on
me as a kid that we haven't covered. So it's necessary.
But I'm curious, Caitlin, what is your history with Jesus
Christ Superstar.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
Well, I saw this movie like many during the Great
Caitlin movie binge of two thousand and five.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
And that's interesting that it made the cut. Honestly, I
feel like this movie doesn't have a huge footprint outside
of like Sunday School, I know, but.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, somehow it made the list. I think it was
just referenced enough that I was like, I guess I
should see it.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
I mean, and Norman Jewison's a big director. I get it.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, So I took it upon myself to watch it
and Jamie, I know it's your birthday, so I want
to be kind and gentle. But I would say this
movie appeals to absolutely zero of my sensibilities and I
don't like it at all.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
It's definitely not your kind of movie. It unfortunately is
my exact kind of movie. There's just extraneous dance numbers.
It doesn't really make sense.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
It's loud, it's hard to follow. The songs are not catchy,
they're just very repetitive. I don't like Jesus's voice that.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
I thoroughly agree with that Ted Neely, I just like,
I don't know. I mean, I know that that's me
five D chessing, being like they made Jesus unlikable so
that you would root for Judas. But I do think
it's a skill issue, unfortunately, and it's too bad because
it seems like Ted Neely is like from what I
had learned about him, he seems like a lovely person whatever, whatever,

(08:43):
which you can't say for everyone involved, because let's not
forget this was baby Andrew Lloyd Weber's little like Money project,
and he did, in fact, just steal the Batman theme.
This movie is so fun, Okay, can I can I
get into my history?

Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yes? Please?

Speaker 2 (09:03):
This movie is I'm not gonna say it's good. Although
I don't think it's bad. I think it is deeply, deeply,
deeply flawed. I think and I could be talked out
of this. I do think that this movie and this
musical in general, has its heart in the right place.
I think that it was There are many elements of
it that are subversive in a good way, and many

(09:25):
elements of it that are subversive in a counterproductive and
sometimes just straight up confusing way. But I saw this
movie for the first time when I was I think
in fifth grade, because I feel like we've like talked
about our respective histories with religion, but like my family
was all over the place, like I was baptized Catholic,

(09:47):
but then we were kind of like, no, it's too
dark in those churches, and so we stopped. And then
I went to for a good chunk of my youth,
except for when we were briefly into Wickedism. We went
to like a I think technically Protestant but a congregational church,
which is basically the shorthand of saying it was the

(10:08):
only church in my city that was friendly to queer people,
and so it was I mean, I will say, like,
I feel lucky that I don't have a ton of
like religious trauma or baggage in my life because my
church was like relatively loosey, goosey and friendly, which you
can tell because they showed this to me in instead

(10:29):
of like walking us through the Crucifixion story, they literally
turned this movie on and they're like, so that is
basically what happened, and we were all like, oh, oh,
so this musical is very important to me. It also
was a big musical for my mom. She it was
her like vacuuming music. Oh, for all of my childhood.

(10:51):
So we like we were in Andrew Lloyd Webber household.
We listened to a lot of Phantom, a lot of
Jac's Superstar. We skipped over Cats for some reason. That
was where the line was drawn. But yeah, I deeply
loved this movie. And Carl Anderson as Judas was one
of the biggest, most formative crushes of my life. Okay,
I was obsessed with him, and I was really sad

(11:13):
he died in two thousand and two, which was shortly
after I learned he existed. It really so whatever grade
I was in in two thousand and one, I was like, Wow,
he's my crush. We're going to make it work, even
though he's seventy or whatever, even though he could be

(11:33):
my peepot, We're going to make it work. And then
he died. But I still think it's like one of
my Like, Carl Anderson is Judas, and there's a lot
of stuff going on here, but like It's still one
of my favorite performances to watch, I think ever, which
is very nostalgia field, but it's also like he's so good.
I just think he's so amazing. A lot of this

(11:54):
is Carl Anderson Fueld, And then you go back to
the original Broadway cast and Judas. I mean this also
Ted Neely in the original Broadway cast, which again mistake,
but you had Ben Vereen as the original Judas. So like,
no matter who, like, Judas is the best character, and
I feel like the musical knows that because he's Jesus
has exactly one good song, and that's a problem. In

(12:17):
Jesus Christ Superstar, he has one good song.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
What do you classify as his one good song?

Speaker 2 (12:24):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna say it's it's a skip
for me, But fans of Jesus Christ Superstar do like, oh,
I'm gonna say this so wrong because because also I
would say that Jesus Christ Superstar is probably like I
did research for this to see what the interpretation is,

(12:44):
but for a long time I was just like, this
is a documentary and everything I know about the last
days of Jesus' life, like it's in this documentary that
I watched Gissemine the song where he's like, what should
I that song?

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Oh, that's the name of the garden? I think where
they are the Last Supper.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, so that song. I get why people like it.
I still am like, it's I just Ted Neely's voice.
I find so grading, unfortunately, but like Carl Anderson's Got Heaven,
he's got the opener and the closer of the movie.
So you know, I don't know if there's anyone who's
ever argued that this movie is overtly anti Judas, but
I like, Judas has the first and the last song,

(13:26):
and they're both doing laps around any of Jesus's songs.
Mary Magdalen, both of her songs are better than Jesus.
Any of Jesus's songs the villains have better. I mean,
the villains usually have better songs, but like you're gonna
tell me Jesus has a better song than King Herod,
And where do we even start with that?

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Okay, King Herod's song is my favorite.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
It is so like you're like, is it homophobic? Probably?
But is it iconic? Definitely? Like I don't understand, Like
I don't know what they were doing there, and the
best part is Joshua Mistelle, who is Zero Mistelle's son.
So Broadway Netbo.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Baby, they don't know who those people are on.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Okay, let me take well. It is actually important because
Joshua Mustelle is the child of Zero Mistyle, who both
originated Tevia and Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway and
also originated Max bialis Stock or no, he played Max
Bialistock in the original mel Brooks Producers. So he is

(14:25):
both an iconic Jewish actor and he was like blacklisted
in the fifties. Like he's an interesting guy, and josh
Mistell is his son and whatever, he's the NEPO baby
that's who plays Harod King Herron.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Ok.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, and Joshua Mistell is straight. But but I don't know.
It was so weird. I was like watching because he's
still alive and has given interviews about it, and many
times he's been asked like, what what was that all about?
And he, to his credit, is like, I'm not really sure.
I don't know. I don't know, and I cannot speak

(15:01):
on behalf of the queer community. But I like it.
I don't know, I don't know. I like it. It's
so good. And like, would I remove that number. I
can't say that I would. I look forward to it
every time. Yeah, but like why is it why? I mean,
why is anything like anything in this movie?

Speaker 3 (15:21):
That's an excellent question. Why are the like high priests
dressed the way they are with a big deal?

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Well, I can so that. Okay, we're just getting right
into it. That is. I wasn't aware of this, but
I was looking into like because I assumed that this
movie was considered like blasphemous by just about everybody when
it came out, because I was like, Jesus isn't supposed
to be groovy or whatever, And it wasn't as controversial

(15:50):
as I thought it would be. It was a little
more well like openly embraced. But there were elements of it.
And this gets into the fact that we'll talk about
this that this movie was shot mostly in Palestine and
majority in the West Bank, but the Israeli government has
its fingerprints all over it in terms of the permits

(16:12):
required to shoot the movie.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
They also, I believe, provided some of the funding for
the production. It seems that way Yes offered a rebate
and then the director was like, wow, thank you so much.
Israel yes for doing that for us, and hey, other
Hollywood directors, you should go shoot your film in Israel
and like just like this glowing endorsement of this illegal

(16:37):
settler colonial ethno.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
State, which is particularly ridiculous when you consider it the
majority of the movie was filmed in the fucking West Bank,
Like it's yeah, that's I mean, we'll talk about the
production of this movie because it's deeply fucked and in
some converts of this movie to this day, the word
Palestine will not show up in life, like where was

(17:00):
this movie shot? Because there's a lot of and this
is you know, out of the control of the production
at this point because it was fifty years ago. But
there are still Zionist publications or Zionist sympathizing publications that
will say this movie was completely shot in Israel, with
you know, completely, no just nothing, no no acknowledgment of
where this movie actually was shot and what the history

(17:20):
it is, which, of course, considering what this movie is
ostensibly about, is pretty fucking ridiculous. Where occupation is referenced constantly, Yes,
so we'll get into that, but oh, I forgot where
I was going with that originally. But but yeah, I
mean this this musical is I mean deeply, deeply, deeply

(17:45):
a product of its time, and I yeah, there was.
I'm sorry, it was a very difficult one to prep for.
You know, obviously, I mean hopefully if you're a listener
of this show, you're well aware of this already. But
you know, any of this movie or productions ties with
Israel or any pro Israel rhetoric surrounding this movie is

(18:09):
obviously horseshit. I yeah, but before prepping for this, I
feel like it's a two prong thing, or it was
in my prep where it was like trying to get
to the bottom of how is this movie produced and
how is it produced like you're saying, Caitlin like in
cooperation and actually directly endorsed with Israel. Oh that was

(18:32):
what I was going to say earlier. Is that later
on Israel kind of disavowed this movie, which who fucking cares?
But I will say that the thing that and again,
like listeners, let me know if I'm off base here,
but one of the things in this movie that does
genuinely seem to be anti Semitic is that costume choice

(18:56):
you were talking about with the high priests, because those
are Jewish high priests that and again I am not
an expert on literally any element of this because I
watched it as a documentary as a kid. But but
that there are a lot of Jewish communities that were
sort of turned like, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, monocultured,

(19:19):
caricaturized maybe exactly like the characters of Caiaphas and Honest
have been criticized as being overtly anti Semitic, and from
what I could tell that that does appear to definitely
be true where they were just like, oh, every Jewish
community is the same, and we're gonna, you know, just
sort of create these vague villains who are based on

(19:41):
historical people. But for the for the movie is just
like it really leans into I think a pretty anti
Semitic place. So it's there's just there's just there's a lot.
It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, So will you
tell me the story of Jesus came?

Speaker 3 (20:00):
I sure will. I know so much about it. Let's
take a quick break first, and then we'll come back
for the recap.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
And we're back.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
So here's the recap. If it sounds like I'm talking
about the events of this famous Jesus story is if
I don't really know what I'm talking about or who
any of these people are, or if it sounds like
I've never read the Bible or been to a Christian church.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
People are gonna be so shit. It's because that has
never read the Bible? How have we not read the Bible?
I tried to do a little bit of backgrounded, like
how Lucy Goosey is this adaptation. I'll do my best,
but yeah, ultimately, neither of us are religious, so this
is going to be a challenge, yes.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
And also again, the movie's kind of hard to follow,
especially in the sense that characters will just suddenly show
up on screen and they're not really introduced and you
don't know who they are in the context of the
rest of the narrative, and you're just.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Like, I think, who is that? I think that this movie?
That's I think that that's like a part of this
movie's agenda is that it is assumed that everyone knows
who everyone in this is, and like, if you are
not familiar with the Bible, this movie is gonna be
hard to right. It just genuinely is. I never watched

(21:27):
it before with anything other than just like a glaze
over my eyes and we'll talk about it. But I
was kind of struck with, like, how overtly political. Like
a good chunk of the lyrics in this musical are yes.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
And that's the other thing. There is no spoken dialogue.
Every word is a song, and that's just for some
reason hard for my brain to pay attention to.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well, it's like it's operatic, and I think that I'm
if I'm not miss saying, I think that JAC Superstar
started as like a concept album. Yes, so yeah, so
it's basically written as an opera.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
I kind of like that, but I also feel like
it's easier for and maybe this is like our generation problem,
but it's like I feel like when everything is sung,
there are so many like large chunks of this movie
that I was like, oh, I guess I never really
listened to what they were saying, because you're just like, dude,
do do do do do do do do, like you're

(22:23):
like whatever, But then you listen to it, You're like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay.
I've been watching this my whole life, and I was like,
I just didn't really listen to what Simon was saying.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
I don't even know who Simon is.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
I got you, I got you.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Okay, all right, here's the story. We are in a
desert in Palestine. It's sort of two thousand years ago,
but it's also sort of contemporary.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
It's the seventies. It's like it's it's I think that
the it's supposed to be a bunch of hippies staging a.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Play, right because as shows up, Yeah, and people jump
off the bus and get into like costume slash character
for the movie that we're about to watch. Among them
is Jesus Christ ever heard of him? Yeah, played by
Ted Neely and.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
A white Jesus. Which, well, it's that's like one of
the I think most obviously wrong things with this, Like
two Well, I should have said in our prep that
in two days from now, my mom and I are
going to see Cynthia Rivo as Jesus at the Hollywood Bowl. WHOA, Yeah,

(23:37):
I was really excited because she's gonna it's gonna be
the first time that I'll be like, consider Jesus and
Jesus Christ superstar. But Cynthia Riva is playing Jesus and
Adam Lambert is playing Judas. But for the two most
I think influential productions of this there is a white
Jesus and a black Judas. So in the original productions
Ted Neelie and Ben Vereen and this production it's Ted

(24:01):
Neely and Carl Anderson. This has been I think, like
corrected over time. I think the last production of this
that made a cultural wave was when John Legend played
Jesus like six or seven years ago. So this is
like a habit that has been corrected over time. But

(24:24):
white Jesus, white Jesus, yes.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Yes, indeed. Also I read that Ted Neely was like
the Jesus understudy in the stage musical, but he did
like he had gotcha other parts within the stage production
and then was cast as Jesus in the film. But
either way, still involved in both.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
Bless his heart. Wish he wasn't, wish he wasn't so irritating.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Okay, So we meet the cast as actors.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
I guess, yeah, they're like community theater. I don't know,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
And then we meet Judas played by Carl Anderson, who
sings a song about Jesus.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Okay, the outfit is great. I used to really want
the orange tied I Judas fit. Okay, because it's both
stylish and comfortable. He sings Heaven on Their Minds, which
is I think, for my money, the best song in
the musical. To me, it's the best song in the musical.

(25:26):
But again a very political song right that I think
like pretty quickly gets us into Judas's head in an
interesting way where he's just like, Jesus, you're doing too much, Jesus.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
That's his way. He's like, I feel like maybe you've
lost sight of the cause and the message that you've
been preaching, Jesus. And yes, I think maybe you're a
false messiah and.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Jac superstar like Jesus. The Jesus of this production is
is so bitchy. Jesus is a is a huge bitch
in this one, and I think it's funny. My favorite
scene when I was okay, well, one of my favorite
scenes that I would like to laugh at with my
cousins is when Jesus, I mean I know that this

(26:15):
is like also in the Bible, but that when he
goes to the temple and he's like he hates it.
He's acting like he like it's like a Wendy's franchise
and he's like, this sucks. I hate it. Get it.
Stop everyone's having fun. Stop. I know that that's at
the point of the scene, but I feel like that's

(26:36):
how he plays it, where he's like, ah, he's just
like freaking out at the all. Yes, yes, it's funny. Okay. Anyways,
Judas is like Jesus is doing too much.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Meanwhile, there are Roman soldiers trooping around because.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
In crop tops, mind in little tank tops.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Tank tops because of course, the Roman Empire has occupied
hide this land.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Which ironically this movie is not shy, does not shy
away from talking about while actively making deals with Israel
to make the movie happen.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
Well, yeah, right, exactly. So then we cut to Jesus
and his disciples singing.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
What's the buzz? Oh my god, so funny. All the
cuts in this movie are hard cuts because you just
never know what you're gonna cut to. Sure, I think
the Apostles really come off as real dufes in this movie.
They seem like goofy little guys that are there fanboys,

(27:39):
which I guess is kind of like no offense is
kind of what the Apostles were, where like Simon is
kind of the street team. Uh you know there, you could,
you could, but what's the buzz? Is again one of
the many songs in this musical that I both have
a lot of affection for and is like straight up annoying.
It's annoying song. A lot of these songs and Jesus

(28:02):
Christ Superstar are straight up annoying.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
I'm glad you've said that.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
And I celebrate that. I all of like most of
the things that are like campy about this movie, even
when they're bad. I love and What's the Buzz is
an annoying song that will get stuck in your head
for the rest of.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
Your life unfortunately. Yes, yeah, anyway, so we're seeing that.
And then we also meet Mary Magdalene played by Yvonne Elleman.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Oh right, because she was the one person who was
actually the main role on Broadway I think, yes, yes,
and then Ted Neely was the understudy. You're totally right, yeah, yah.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
So Mary is there tending to Jesus as she does
throughout the entire movie, patting his forehead with a damp cloth,
et cetera.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
She's a bit of a foot freak in this interpretation.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
And then Judas shows up to be like, Jesus, why
are you hanging out with Mary? She's a sex worker
and she doesn't really fit in with your vibe and
your crowd, and Jesus is like, bitch, who are you
to judge anyone exact? And he was right to say it,
and he was right to say it.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Judas, you know, Judas is a problematic fave.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
He's a character Jesus warf.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Maybe he is Judas. I'm so glad you said that
Judas is a swarf because it's true. It's true, it's true,
and he needs to get over himself. He had like
I just and then with Jesus and Judas, I do
think that you're supposed to want to be like at
certain points like kiss, like there are especially with the betrayal.
I mean, I guess they do kiss. They kind of

(29:36):
famously kiss.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
And that happened in the Bible. I had to look
it up, but.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
That you know, Oh no, yeah, there's been wars over
that kid. It's like it's a very famous it's like Titanic,
followed by this, yeah, by Judas kissing Jesus before yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, followed closely by the end of Shrek one where
Shrek and Fiona kiss.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
I know, and some people disagree. So people think Shrek
just beats out. She's a centis by just a little bit,
but you know, interpret as.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
You will exactly. So Judas is carrying on, and then
Jesus is like, I'm sorry, but he is whining constantly.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
He's a bitch. He's bitchy. He's like, you will not
find me arguing this.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
He's like, no one even cares if I come or go.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
He's no disciples, He's he's like frown he's pouting, he's frowning.
He's like, no one listens to be that. Later, when
he's crowded by people who are poor. I mean, I
do think there's a larger interpretation that I is. It's
so weird because I feel like there is like some
nuance in the way that it's written that Ted Neely
just does not telegraph at all. Because when he's like

(30:45):
give me by space, like he has so many like
annoying little he's just leave me.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
I have a lot to say about that scene.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
We'll get there, but we'll get there.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yes, anyway, He's like he's whining, and his disciples are like,
how can you even say that, Jesus, we love you.
Then we cut to Caiaphas, a Jewish high priest, the
one with the wild hat, and then he has a
he has a little buddy, what's his name Annis?

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes, okay, And their whole appeal lyric, like you know,
musically is high voice, low voice, and as a kid,
for me, I was like, this is cartoon, this is
giving cartoon. Their songs in particular, I for sure never
listened to the lyrics because I was just like ha,
big and small.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
I had to pay such hard attention. And here's what
I have deduced that they're singing about.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
And this first, their first song, was added for the movie.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
Oh okay, I did read that one of their songs
was an addition.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Believe it's this one.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Yeah, okay. So basically what they're singing about is they
don't like that Jesus is going around and calling himself
a king and something has to be done about him.
Then we cut back to Jesus and now Mary is
putting some ointment and murdror on him, and maybe Frankinsonse

(32:07):
is involved, I don't know. But she's singing everything's all right,
Everything's fine. I forget the melody of.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
That everything's up. Yes, uh yeah. Unfore I well, this
is more of a like classic bectal cast discussion. But like,
it is unfortunate that like such a historically compelling character
as Mary Magdalene is reduced to a handful of like
Jesus is so awesome. I love kind of songs. I
love him, but I think that von elleman performance is

(32:36):
like really good. Her second song, in particular, I don't
know how to love him. I've was obsessed with that song.
I have like a very strong memory of walking around
my neighborhood thinking of like a kid in my neighborhood,
I had a crush on, like saying that song to me.
I don't know how to love Cory, go wow. Corey

(32:57):
was my Jesus at the time, brave, and I didn't
know how to love Corey. He didn't He certainly didn't
know how to love me. He didn't know I existed.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Okay, anyway, So Judas is there also, and he's like,
what the hell, Jesus, why did you spend money on
that expensive murror when we could have used it to
feed the poor? And Jesus is basically like, relax, guy,
there's not much we can do for poor people. We

(33:29):
should just appreciate the nice things we have. And I'm like,
wait a minute, which.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Is like a very broad Yeah, I'm curious for Bible
heads out there, how oversimplified is this? Because it's like
I feel like what I kept losing in the plot,
or like what was not clearly communicated for those of
us that aren't Bible heads. Right, I know that Jesus

(33:54):
knew he was going to die soon, like this whole time,
he knows he's about to die, But I feel like
that is not very clearly telegraphed in ways that like,
I think in this scene he is being callous, but
also he seems needlessly callous in like sometimes he's being
like I don't have time. I don't have enough time

(34:15):
in my life to fix this gigantic systemic problem. But
that was never clearly communicated because I think it's assumed
that we know that already. But he just comes off
looking like, ugh, I don't know, I don't know. You're
like Jesus.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
It just seems like he doesn't care about poor people.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Which is but canonically not true about him. Sure, exactly,
it's weird.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, it's bizarre. Then the next day, Caiaphas and a
council of priests gather to discuss Jesus how he's dangerous
because they think the Romans will kill all of the
Jews because of Jesus's antics, so he has to die
for the sake of everyone else.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
And I think it's like a play bike. I mean
on that first song between because I really had to
listen to the lyrics of the Caiaphas and Anna's songs
because it's so cartoty and distracting. But I'm pretty sure
that and again historically I've seen this has been disputed.
I don't really know, and I know that Kiaphas and

(35:18):
Annas are the characters that are most commonly accused of
being more overtly anti Semitic, as well as the way
that the crowds are depicted towards the end of the movie,
which we'll get to, because I think the way that
ponscious Pilot is characterized in this movie is like extremely generous,
which we'll get to, and that is another common criticism

(35:39):
of this movie. But I'm pretty sure in their first song,
Kiaphas is both saying what he says to the council
or whatever you call a group of priests. I don't
know where He's like, Jesus is dangerous and we have
to kill him. But I think he's also doing that
with the knowledge that like, if he's the one that
makes that call, it will be good for him politically.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Sure, Yeah, in any case. Jesus meanwhile and his followers
are traveling through the desert and they're singing, Ho, Sanna, Hey, Sana.
I don't know what they're saying.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
They love his ass, they love him. They're like yes
Jesus and say war.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
And then in a different musical number, his disciples are
singing Christ you.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Noah, I love you, oh my God, oh my God.
That saw that dance number is unhinged. Okay, so that's Simon's.
So I had to check this because again, like all
of this movie is just like a blur in my
brain where I know all the words, but what any
of them mean. So Simon is one of the Apostles,
which I guess I never really connected before. He is,

(36:50):
from what I can gather, kind of the street team
of the Apostles, where.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
He's leading the flash mobs, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, he's doing the flash mob. He's like the social
media director of you know, Christianity sort of, I guess.
But so I think that the implication is that, like
Simon has been away spreading the word of Jesus and
is bringing all of these people back as followers of Jesus.
And again, I'm like, I know that there's a listener

(37:18):
being like wrong, Jamie, but I really really try. I
just need you to know that I tried.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
I tried.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
I think my understanding of and I think this is
like a criticism that I have of the movie where
Simon is coming back and says in that song like
he is implying that Jesus's presence could be a huge
difference in liberating the Jews from the Romans, and Jesus

(37:46):
is sort of like, well, I'm going to die in
three days. But Simon says, yeah, Christ, what word do
you need to convince you that you've made it? And
you're easily as strong as the filth from Rome who
rape our country and who've terrorized our people for so long.
Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of
hate at room, you will rise to a greater power.
We will win ourselves a home. So a lot of

(38:07):
loaded language there, but I think like that the core
of what he's saying is that Jesus' presence could be
a liberatory force against an oppressive regime and Jesus like
with regularity is just sort of like no, shrug, Yeah,
you're like, well, what's the point of you then, Jesus.

(38:31):
But I feel like that's not the musical seems to
feel like Simon is wrong, and the musical seems to
feel like any like and that I mean, Judas famously
is wrong about certain things, but that like Judas's perspective
of like I don't know, like I just feel like
any like larger liberation that is proposed in this movie

(38:54):
is dismissed as being naive. Again, I'm like, I guess
that that's I don't know if that's more criticism of
this musical's interpretation or the Bible itself. I don't know,
but I know that it bothers me. And it sucks
to see any character that proposes leveraging someone's celebrity and

(39:15):
influence to liberate people as being like, well, no, we're
not going to do that, as ridiculous you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, I was barely following any of that.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Well, it's also because yeah, they're doing like jazz hands
throughout this like pretty serious political lyrics, so I had
to It sucks because like when you're reading about this musical,
you also have to like vet the source considerably because
you're like, this could be any number of like overtly
religious interpretations of it. And I was like, is there

(39:51):
And I was able to find a few places that
I felt like were credible that we're able to help
me through this because because also, I mean, I know
that this comes up in the conversation around this movie
all the time, like early to mid seventies was weirdly
I still can't figure out why, but like God and

(40:11):
Jesus musicals, people were like, let's do it more because
this came out the same year as Godspell.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yeah, there were a bunch of movies with like strong
religious overtones and like specifically Christian overtones in this era. Also,
like Monty Python's Life of Brian came out sometime around.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Here, And if anyone can help me understand why, because
that is not something I've I've seen it obviously presented
as like, wow, this was happening a lot. I'm like,
surely if it was happening that many times and like
massively successful, but like what was going I don't know.
I also think that this movie is like there's a
few moments where it's trying to make comment on the

(40:54):
Vietnam War in different places. It's like it's trying to
do I just don't understand why this, like noween seventy
three was like Jesus Musical year, but but it was.
I don't know, and I'm not I don't. Honestly, god'spell
is none of my business. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
I've never seen it, don't know it neither.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
I know that Victor Garber plays Jesus, so that's.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Fun Victor of Titanic fame anyway.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
But it's somehow a musical that I find even more
annoying than this one.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Okay, so all right, So then we meet Roman official
Ponscious Pilot. He has heard about this Jesus fellow, and
I think at this point he doesn't really know what
to make of him. I think again, the songs are
hard to pay attention to.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Panta's Pilot is straight up like emo boy, like it's
so bizarre to me, and I was this was something
I attempted to look into. It's like, is this at all?
Is this a normal way to portray Pontcious Pilot as
sort of this? Because I feel like throughout the movie
Pancha's Pilot, who is like a Roman leader. I think

(41:59):
that you could say, like at the time, he would
have been the most powerful person in the movie in
an immediate sense, but they make it out to be.
And I guess that this is not super unusual. And
there's a lot of Western interpretations of pontchous Pilot that
sort of fall along these lines as like that he
was and again I don't agree with this, but I

(42:19):
also don't know the Bible that he was portrayed as
capitulating to whatever would make him most popular, versus actually
feeling strongly that Jesus needed to be killed. But again,
the way that it's like telegraphed in this adaptation to
me makes him seem tortured and sympathetic in a way

(42:42):
that I find really really off putting. This is like
and I didn't know this still today, but like that
That's another common criticism of the movie is that like
poncious Pilot, I feel like, is the kind of like
just such an obvious villain that I don't really I
don't have a particular interest as if you were, and like, well,

(43:03):
did he feel conflicted about murdering people? Like who gives
a fuck. But I feel like this movie kind of
gives a fuck.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Right, because he's an agent of the occupation.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
The Roman is the occupation, right, So like that's the thing,
is like he is the occupation. And so if I'm
understanding the hierarchy correctly, here, ponscious Pilot is like a
Roman leader. He is the occupation. He has these various minions.
He sends Jesus off to King Herod because King Herod

(43:36):
and again, please correct me if you're wrong, but like
King Herod, I think politically was considered King of the
Jews at that time, which is why his whole song
is making fun of Jesus for saying he's king of
the Jews because he's like, I'm King of the Jews
when I think historically he may not have even been Jewish,
but he was like an enforcer of the occupation. And

(43:57):
then you have Caiaphas and Annas who are Jewish priests
who are trying to appease the Roman Empire. But like, yeah,
poncous Pilot is the most powerful person in the movie.
So I don't understand why. I mean, I understand why
because that happens in populist movie, making all the time.
It's why you have fucking like Darth Vader narratives and

(44:19):
like people love to be like, well, this like oppressive fascist,
Like what's going on in his head? How did he
get there? But I don't know because this music is
such a mess. I just the performance is fine, you know,
my hat off to Bury Dennin, but it's just like
he literally looks like the leader of Like he looks

(44:40):
like Gerard Way. I'm like, what are you doing? He
looks like he's like my chemical romancing his way through
this poncious pilot performance where he's like, oh, it's so
hard to have so much power and be like I
have to kill people. Like I don't know that interpretation, Yeah,
just I don't. I don't like it. I don't like it.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Yeah. Yeah. That becomes abundantly clear in a scene towards
the end of the movie.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Right where he like leans down to Jesus. He's like,
I really don't want to do this, but the people
are asking, so whatever he was in Titanic? Did you
know that? Did you know that Barry Dennan was in Titanic?

Speaker 1 (45:22):
No?

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Who did he play?

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Praying man? Oh? Caw wait? Let me actually I didn't
look up a picture because I bet we will recognize
him as praying man.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Yeah, please send it to me.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Oh my god, Oh my god. Wait, he's kind of iconic,
remember him.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Oh yeah. And they're like, can you move a little
faster through that valley there, because he's like saying something
something through the shadow of the valley of death. Blah
blah blah. Whoa.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
I was excited to give that fact to you, and
then I forgot to look up what they meant by that.
He's literally, wow, he's praying. He's praying man, unlike ponscous pilot. Yeah,
he was not moving through that valley because he killed Jesus. Anyways,
what range.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
So true? So true? Okay, So then we're at a
marketplace in Jerusalem. Merchants are selling stuff and.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Jesus at the mall. Jesus at the mall's picked. He
throws a fit at the mall because.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
The idea is that this is like a group of
heathens who are shaking their asses and doing drugs and
selling weapons and yeah, stuff.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Like that, which feels I mean, and this is just
me my interpretation of the vibes of this scene. It
feels a little bit tongue in cheek because it's so
like overtly sexy, and it's like a story without a
story where you're like, it's so wild that these community
theater actors are shaking their asses right now. But yeah, no,
Jesus pitches a fit at the mall and you're like, Okay,

(46:56):
he's being Jesus is being a swarf now, but he's
also kind of being anti capitalist, and.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
Which is Jesus's whole thing. So I was like, why
weren't you like that before when you were talking to
Judas who knows, but he trashes the market.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
He pitches a fit at them all.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
He really does. And then Jesus goes to what I
believe is a leper colony, this community of people who
are disabled and dealing with disease and they're hoping that
Jesus can heal them, and he tries to help, but
the sheer number of people is overwhelming and he's like,

(47:35):
there are too many of you. Leave me alone.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
And I get it. It's like I think that I'm
I'm whatever. There's a lot of things that are wrong
here where it's just like again, this the way that
this narrative is just overall from Jesus's perspective, dismissive of
poverty and dismissive of the underclass in general, like anyone
vulnerable who's like that's that's Jesus, his whole thing. But

(48:01):
he seems to not be interested in this movie, which
is why I do think it's like it's a it's
partially just not a good performance. Sorry, Ted Neely. I
feel like the most generous interpretation I could get to,
but it's like he's not a good enough actor or
really singer to pull it off. Is like the concept

(48:22):
of like he is one person and like cannot possibly
fix something this massive in the amount of time. Like
it's like I do think that there is like this
element that you can feel in certain numbers. I feel
like it comes across in that song Gosemine, where it's
like his what he wants to accomplish is too massive

(48:45):
for one person, which but the ways that that's demonstrated
makes him look like a real asshole totally like yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Yeah, it's it's bizarre. But then we cut to that
night while geez this is sleeping, Mary Magdalene sings about
how she loves Jesus but she doesn't know how best
to love him.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
And I like I do. The part of the song
that made me laugh this time around was that she
was like, and if he asked me to be his girlfriend,
I'd be like no. I like like, I'd panic, I'd
say no.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Yeah, and good for her?

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, same, I would. It's too much pressure. I don't
want to be Jesus's girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
A lot of pressure.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, oh my god, the tabloids.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Yes, okay. So then the Batman theme starts playing, no no, no,
no no no no, Judas.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Who can say why? And there was a whole lawsuit
around this. There was, of course of lawsuit because there
had to be because also this came out like this
concept album came out in the early seventies, which was
so close to the Batman Show being on TV that
it would.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
Have been like I was writing a musical about Jesus
and then this theme from SpongeBob just started playing like
it was so Angeloi Webber, what a what a fucking loser?

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Any?

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Very bizarre?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Yeah. So then Judas goes to Caiaphas and his minions
to be like, we got to stop Jesus.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
No no no no no no no.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
And Caiaphas is like, okay, we'll pay you to tell
us where we can find Jesus. So Judas accepts pieces
of silver and says that they can find him on
Thursday night in a garden that I don't know how
to say what it's called.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
I think it's gives them any yep, Okay.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Then we cut to the Last Supper. Jesus and his
twelve apostles break bread and drink wine, and then Jesus
sings about a suspicion that one of the apostles will
betray him, and he knows that it's Judas.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Real housewives of the Garden of CASSEMONI hmmm, he starts.
He once again can't help himself. He has to pitch
a fit. I mean, to be fair, it's his last
night on earth. Let him cook. But like right, Also,
none of his friends stay up with him on his
last on the last night of his life, which is rude,
pretty much rude.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
Yeah, they should have had a slumber party where they
stay up all night.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
They should have watched a movie.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
M oh wow. Anyway, so Jesus knows that Judas is
betraying him, so he casts Judas away, and I love
the part where he runs away in the middle of
a bunch of like sheep who were fucking.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Away, makes you think it's us. It's set, it's set,
and it makes you think maybe he's one of the sheep.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Whoa.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, yeah, I remember my Sunday school teacher pointing that out.
And but good, this is a good use of our time.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yeah, exactly. Okay. So then Jesus sings to God asking
why God wants Jesus to die.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
I think this song is interesting. I don't Again, I'm
not familiar with the biblical parallel. I don't like the song,
but I like what the song is doing. I feel
like this movie does to varying degrees of I think
this is one of the movie's more successful moments at
attempting to humanize Jesus and be like, well, if you

(52:27):
had to die for nebulous reasons tomorrow, you would also
be having a bad night. Like that's so true, that's
so true.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Yeah. I like the way this song builds.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, I'm excited to see Cynthia Arrivo sing that song
because that neally is so annoying. I'm like, I just
can't root for him. But yes, I like the premise
of that song. Yeah, and then he's like fine, i'll die.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Fine, I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
God, you bitch. He's like, Dad, watch stop killing me.
And I guess God offscreen is like, sorry, sorry, sorry, son,
you'll thank me someday.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
And well, just like every other movie, this is a
story about fathers and sons.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
I mean, the Bible really is the ultimate fathers and sons. Sorry,
like enough enough already. Okay, So the next morning, Judas
is back and he gives Jesus a little kiss and
Jesus is like stop that.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
Stop.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Even though Jesus he's so he's so annoying, he's so messy,
where he's like, you have to go do this because
God said you have. Like, because I think that that's
a part of it that also isn't telegraphed well in
the movie, is that like this is all like something
that Jesus knows is going to happen because he was
told it's going to happen. And it's almost like Judas
is doomed to do this in some way, but then

(53:54):
whenever he's doing it, Jesus is like you he suck.
It's just weird, right.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
So, also because I didn't know this, I've never read
the Bible, I don't know the details of this story
aside from the very basics of like Judas betrays Jesus
and then he's crucified. Yeah, I didn't know why this
kiss happened. Oh and the movie does not make it clear.
So no, I kind of like that. I kind of

(54:21):
liked that. The movie is just like, what do you think, Yeah,
they just kissed.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Do you like it?

Speaker 1 (54:24):
So?

Speaker 2 (54:26):
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I like it. Whatever.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Also, when you do like a search online for like
Judas betraying Jesus, because I was like trying to find
this story as told by the Bible to see like
how it compares to the movie adaptation. When you look
at the like images from this search, most of the

(54:48):
images of this are of Judas kissing Jesus, and it's like,
you know, arguably homo erotic. And I don't know why
people don't talk a at that more.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
I think that I do think people do talk about it.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
I'm just not paying attention.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
No, I just I definitely I don't know. I was
aware of the kids. But I also feel like the
kiss is like I'm trying to think of another like
piece of media where it's reproduced but the like, well,
it's actually it's actually reproduced in succession at some point. Whoa, Yeah,
Kendall kisses his father on the cheek before selling him out.

(55:27):
So if you ever see two aggressively straight men doing
a kiss on the cheek, something is about to go down.
But in this movie, I would say that this is
not at all an aggressively straight movie. It's uh no,
it's I mean, there's a lot of problems with it,
but I wouldn't say that it's rigid. Heterosexuality is one

(55:47):
of them. But yeah, they kiss.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
They kiss because Judas had told Kiaphus that the person
thereafter is the one who Judas will kiss. He's like,
the way that you know who you need to arrest
is the person that I'm gonna kiss. Like that was
his little signal, okay Jesus, and so that's why he
kisses Jesus.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
It's so weird because he could have been like the
person who's.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Hand I shake, could have done the person I'm gonna yeah,
or I'm gonna give an apple to something.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
But it's also like I think it's like I I
like it, okay, in defense of the Bible, go on,
because I do believe this story is mostly made up, right.
I feel like the kiss is a good symbol because
and I think that this is well telegraphed in Carl

(56:37):
Anderson's good performance is that like he loves Jesus and
that like he's also like knows that he's doing this
horrible thing and saying goodbye at the same time. So
I feel like a kiss makes sense because it's like
if it was a if it was something less intimate
or personal, I feel like it would almost be like,
oh did he and Jesus would say this, did you

(57:02):
ever even care about me? Did you? Because that's like
half of his songs, Like, does anyone even even like me?
Even like me? I can't believe that? And ever meanwhile,
everyone's obsessed with him. He's just like a cheerleader. But
I liked and I also just like Carl Anderson kissing
someone because then I can be like, what if I
if it was me? Mm hmmm, So yeah, pro kiss.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
I think they should have kissed on the lips.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
But I think they should have gone to second base.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay. So then the Romans capture Jesus
and his apostles and bring them to Caiaphas who's like,
how dare you say you're the son of God. Then
they take Jesus to Ponscious Pilot, who's very condescending, and

(57:51):
he's like, who even are you Jesus Christ? I have never
heard of you. You don't seem like a king at all.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
And Jesus regularly and I'm Sugar's a biblical significance, but
I just think it's fundy where they're like, so do
you think you're a king?

Speaker 3 (58:05):
Do you think your cave of the Jews? And he's like,
I don't know. You're the one who said that, you
not me.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
I know you are, but what am I?

Speaker 4 (58:12):
Like?

Speaker 2 (58:14):
They're like, okay, okay, that was a silly one. I'm
sure that happens in the Bible. Ball was like whatever, whatever,
yeah these.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
Queens, Okay. So then Ponscious Pilot kind of passes Jesus
off to King Herod, who says, well, well, well, if
it isn't Jesus Christ, son of God, prove it, walk
on water and turn water into wine. But Jesus refuses,

(58:42):
so he's taken away and imprisoned in a cave.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
And we will and we referenced this already, but that
number is just like needs to be seen to be believed.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
And the costumes and the makeup in that scene really
quite something.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Really just yeah, who I was just like, whose idea
and why? And I don't I haven't been able to
find someone who can give a satisfactory answer. But it happens,
and that's really kind of the I meant. You cut
to Herod once or twice at other points in the movie,
including at the crucifixion.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Yeah, but that's.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Really his only part.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Yeah, I don't know if that's think we've seen him
in character at least up until this point.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
No. Yeah, you see him in a T shirt when
you see him come out of the bus.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
Yeah, right, and he's like flooping his hair a bit.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
Anyway, So then we cut to Judas and he suddenly
feels very guilty about this whole thing. So consumed with remorse,
Judas hangs himself. Then it's Jesus' trial.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Spoiler alert, It does not go well.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
Does not go well. No, Caiaphas and the other people
who are against Jesus saying about how he needs to
be crucified, and Ponscious Pilot is like, well, I don't
think we need to kill him. But if it makes
you feel better, I'll flog him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
I'm like, and I'm just sideyeing this whole narrative. Thirdily
of like this again, the most powerful colonizer in the
movie is like I don't want to you made you
made me do it, which I do think is another
and again listeners correct me if I'm wrong, but another
fairly anti Semitic narrative that surrounds this story that is

(01:00:27):
not challenged in this work at all, which is like,
quote unquote, the Jews killed Jesus, right, And that is
basically what how Ponscious Pilot is written and how the
crowd responds like is very not pushing against that interpretation
at all.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
I've never seen Passion of the Christ, but I remember
that being a lot of the discourse around that movie when.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
It came out. Well consider the author exactly. Yeah, one
of the most anti Semitic celebrities of all time. Yeah,
I haven't seen it either. I Oh wait, are you
talking about the Scorsese one or the mel.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
Yeah, this corse not the mel Gibson one. Okay, Scorsezy
one is the last Temptation of Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
And that's Willem defoe Jesus yes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Right, I have seen that one any good. I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
I really Yeah. Once I saw Jesus Christ Superstar, I
was like, I get it. I don't you know, I
don't think that there's gonna be a more fun way
to tell this story, so I don't think try to
watch the others. But yeah, anyways, I and honestly, I
hadn't thought about that in a long time, and have
seen this so many times that I didn't even think
about it. But when I was going back through it,
I was like, oh, yeah, that is like pretty straightforwardly adapted,

(01:01:36):
without question.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
Yes, So Jesus is publicly flogged. Mary Magdalene watches on
in horror, but the angry mob still wants to crucify Jesus.
Then we get a big musical number Jesus Christ Superstar.
Oh my god, And I don't really know what's happening

(01:01:59):
here is it?

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I love it? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Okay, here was my interpretation, don't I don't know if
I'm way off, because this is being intercut with Jesus
like dragging the cross through the desert and then him
being crucified.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Which I think is way better than harping on the
intense violence of the Crucifixion, which I think is like
what every other adaptation really and so much Christian imagery,
like the crucifix in my Grandma's house. You're like, enough,
what the fuck?

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
I don't know why there's so much like reveling in
the violence of that, but yeah, the movie, at least
this movie does not do that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
They're like, they're like, what if we did the little
opposite of that and intercut a sexy disco number, so
questions things. I have thoughts about this. I'm excited to
hear your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
My interpretation is that, like this is sort of a
flash forward after he has like ascended to heaven. Because
Judas is also there, everyone is in like white clothes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
It sort of implies that Judas with heaven and you're like, yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Great, I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, but with a bunch of sexy angels.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
So that was my interpretation. I don't really know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
I agree with you. I think that like it's I
don't know. To me, I just sort of it feels
like both a way to circumvent the harping on the
extreme violence that is like the most common way to
depict the Crucifixion, and it's like just sort of stating
the thesis of the movie where in a way that
I think is very like sympathetic to Judas again where

(01:03:34):
hold on, let me just pull up the lyrics, where
it's like Judas's character and I think it is like
supposed to be him, you know, saying the same thing
he did at the beginning, but with the knowledge of
what happens in the story, where he's like saying why why, why?
Why was it like that? Let me find I don't know,
it just feels very like Silly in seventies in some ways,

(01:03:57):
where he's like, why didn't you come to Earth in
the seventies? That's basically the thesis of the song. It's
like why did you why did you go? Why did
you choose this time in this place? Where which in
a way feels very overly optimistic because I don't know
in the way that I think that a lot of

(01:04:18):
the way that this production, in terms of its like
casting and its politics, are saying like, assume that we
now live in a less prejudiced and hateful world, which
of course we do not. But I think that that
the production takes a more optimistic bent and just gets silly,

(01:04:40):
where did you mean to die? Like that? Was that
a mistake or did you know your messy death would
be a record breaker? That lyric is nuts, like like
you can't say that. So yeah, I think that it's
like the movie's attempt to honestly, like I I've before

(01:05:01):
having for this, I knew the words that I never
thought about them, because once again you're just thinking about
Judas's outfit because you're like, whoa, He's wearing a full
white suit with like fringe everywhere. He's surrounded by sexy
angels and he's just like, Jesus, that was so weird.
Why did you do that? That was wild? And then

(01:05:22):
it's over. They get well, they get back in the bus.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
They get back on the bus right so after this,
but you don't say, Jesus get back on the bus
and what the hell is that about? Well, because he
is in heaven, he died.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Did they really kill Ted Neely? That would be wild
if in the world of the play they're like, oops,
we killed Ted Neely?

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
Sad, Yeah, I guess it's like symbolic. I'm sure Jesus
isn't there. But yeah, they get on the bus and
they drive off the end. Bye bye. So that's the movie.
Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
And we're back where to start. I know we've covered
a lot of the smaller stuff throughout the recap, but yeah,
is there anything that is standing out to you? I mean,
I think that you know, we've talked a little bit
about how this movie was shot in Palestine and was
shot in cooperation and like you say, and like you said,

(01:06:27):
was partially funded by the Israeli government in a way
that it's like extremely pernicious and horrible. Yeah, and in
a way that I think is uh. I guess I
am surprised has not been brought up more in the

(01:06:47):
way for a musical that is still very much around
that the narratives that exist around its most popular adaptation
are never discussed. Like, this is all stuff that I've
learned in the last year or.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
So, And I mean, I have a whole spiels let's
get into it just about I mean, so the movie again,
like doesn't shy away from acknowledging that the Romans were
occupying Palestine at the time these events were taking place.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
But what it does shy away from is Palestine. Yeah,
and that Jesus was Palestinian and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
Like Jesus was a brown Palestinian Arab, which again, this
movie and most media, like mainstream media, that depicts Jesus
very much subscribes to this idea that Jesus was a
white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. And this
movie is no exception. There is more diversity in the

(01:07:47):
cast than I would have expected.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Right, But it's pointed like, I think what's interesting is
there is diversity in this movie, and I like that.
In the framing device, it's like, this is a group
of actors in the seventies question Mark just making a
deal with the Israeli government to put on a play,
and you're like, well, that's fucking horrible, especially if you

(01:08:13):
consider what the plight of the Palestinian people was in
the nineteen seventies, where there is an ongoing occupation, and
I think that a lot of I mean Norman Jewison also,
his other most famous movie is Fiddler on the Roof,
which specifically the theatrical adaptation, but I've never seen it,

(01:08:34):
but my understanding is the theatrical adaptation of it takes
a far more Zionist bent than the stage musical did,
and so Norman Jewison while he was a Christian director,
which I think a lot of people get confused about
because of his last name, where it's like, yeah, I
guess if my name was Jamie Mormon, people would make assumptions.

(01:08:55):
But he was a Christian director, but in his two
most famous movies either took a Zionist bent or in
the case of Jesus Christ Superstar literally was in cooperation
and being funded by Zionists. And yeah, I mean it's
it's so much of we see of what we still

(01:09:17):
see spoken about now, and this feels particularly horrific when
Gaza is being literally starved before our eyes as we
record this to see even a movie that has a
small part in uplifting this false narrative, while also like

(01:09:37):
you're saying, Caitlin saying the right things and being anti occupation,
but it's like it's only anti occupation to a point,
because it's like it's anti occupation but unwilling to acknowledge
Palestinians in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
Right, like you have Judas singing lyrics something to the
effect of, listen, Jesus, do you care for your race?
We are occupied? Have you forgotten how put down we are.
But also this is coming from the person that we
are meant to think is the villain or that, like
you know, in this narrative, Judas is maybe not this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
Movie, Judas is definitely the best. Yeah, that's the thing.
I think that like that, again, I don't know how
Judas is portrayed in the Bible because I just am
not going to read it, but that, like Judas is,
it's so frustrating because it's like Judas's perspective I think
is like made out by the movie to seem valid
at different points, but then isn't at other points. And

(01:10:40):
I think Simon is very similar, where like Simon is
I think effectively making the argument of like leverage your
power and your influence and all of these followers we
have won you to help dismantle this oppressive force, and
Jesus is sort of like that's not possible. I can't
do that. And I don't know, like it's just it's
so muddy. But I do think it's interesting that the

(01:11:03):
message is overtly stated repeatedly, but like you're saying by
characters who are ultimately either villainous or misguided, even if
they love Jesus where it seems like ultimately the Jesus
shrug is like the takeaway, which is which is really
really frustrating.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
Yeah, you would think this movie would be way more
anti occupation, or that Jesus would be way more outspoken
about the occupation, but it kind of doesn't really happen.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Again in the source text, I don't know, you know
exactly what is said or isn't, but it's like Jesus,
even in the most like popular like straight up white
Christian nationalist interpretation, is a champion of the underclass.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
Yeah, people living in poverty, people who are dealing with
who are sick illness, who are sex workers? Like right,
everyone knows this about Jesus, the.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
Politically disenfranchised exactly, And that is not the vibes this
Jesus is giving off, not at all.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
That's those traits are more ascribed minus the like pro
sex work ideology. Those traits are ascribed to Judas, Yeah,
way more so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Yeah. I mean I feel like what comes across clearly
to me about like what he does at the end
when he famously tells everyone where Jesus is.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
That was bad, That was bad. He should not have
done that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
I wish he had that was and he was bad
for that. But at the beginning, I feel like Judas
is real flaw and I again, it's like a smarter
musical maybe could have like expressed these ideas better. Is that,
Like so much of where Judas is coming from is
he wants his people to be liberated, but he's afraid,

(01:12:56):
and he's afraid of like what the occupying for is
going to do if they are too loud? Like that's
the whole point of the first song of Like he
wants to be liberated, but he's afraid that they're being
they're being so loud that it's counterproductive, which is like
a flawed mindset, right, Like that's not a revolutionary mindset
at all. But then it's like it's not like Jesus

(01:13:17):
seems to have that agenda at all, right, where I think,
like of the perspectives presented in the movie, I'm like
kind of most with Simon because Simon, like I feel
like Simon had is the only person who seems to
have a plan and Jesus says no to the plan,
but there was a plan.

Speaker 3 (01:13:36):
Yeah, I I don't know. It's I don't know what
to make of so much of this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
It's a mess. And it's also like you know, written
by with all due respective I mean, I Andrew Laid Webber.
You know, he's who's politically a nightmare, right, Like Andrew
Laid Webber is a political fucking trash fire, and like
is deeply hated by most of his fans. Yeah, I

(01:14:04):
mean truly, Like I think Andrew Lee Webber is a
great example of like someone whose work is like storied
and lauded, and all of his fans are like, well,
don't listen to what he says, like because he is
like a right wing freak who like grew up rich,
and it's just like he's horrible. So is he the
person who I trust? And he wrote this when he

(01:14:25):
was twenty two and so you're like, do I trust
a wealthy, white twenty two year old who grew up
in a conservative household to give me anything here? No fair?

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
I mean, I don't know how musicals work. Really. He
wrote the music, right, but like not the book and
lyrics because that was Tim Rice.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
That's Tim Rice.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
Yeah. And then the screenplay for this movie was co
written by director Norman Jewison and Melvin Bragg. Yeah, so
it's a lot of white men making this.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Yeah, I the.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
Thing I want to say about jew Udas, even though
and Jamie, you and I agree that he's the best
character and he's the most fun to watch and.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
The anthemist actor going with nice compliments towards Carl Anderson, and.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
We're kind of rooting for him most of the time. Culturally,
Judas is not thought of favorably by no most Christians,
and so I liked, yeah, sorry, you heard it here first. Well,
so I think casting a black actor in that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Role absolutely it's racist. Yes, particularly I think like that,
and this is done on stage, it's done in the movie.
The image of the hanging. I think it's very upsetting
because that is a casting choice that is made throughout
at least the early history. And again that's like that

(01:15:56):
has nothing to do with the quality of Ben Verie
or Carl Anderson's performances. As we said, they're they're doing
laps around Jesus every time. But it's Yeah, the optics
of it are very very ugly, especially because he is
the most prominent black actor in the movie, so there
is no like, well, there are other black characters that

(01:16:18):
have a lot of other different perspectives. Like that's not true.
There are other black actors, but most of them appear
in the background or in dance sequences or I mean
there are black and brown actors. Like you're saying it
is not a completely whitewashed movie, but the parts of
it that are whitewashed are I mean, are Jesus like
the most famously, poorly incorrectly whitewashed person ever this movie

(01:16:41):
does nothing to which And again, like knowing the composer's politics,
I'm not shocked to hear. And it's just like he's
lucky that the likes of Ben Vereen and Carl Anderson
would would touch it. But I agree. I mean, it's
like there's not that I'm not saying I want this,
But when you were saying that, where you're like, well,
clearly he's wrong, I was like, what if Judas got

(01:17:03):
like the wickedification of Judas is scariot, you know, like
I'd watch it Judas wicked because there's like Judas wicked
moments because I yeah, like we're saying, like, this movie
is not unsympathetic to Judas's plight, but ultimately they're like
at the end of the day, you know, the okay, someone,

(01:17:27):
which is weird because Stephen Schwartz, who wrote Wicked, also
wrote Godspell. Oh that was his first musical. So Stephen Schwartz, well,
actually not you. Someone can someone give me the wickedification
of Judas? I'd watchy, I'd watch that. But yeah, ultimately,
it's it's the casting. Like casting a black actor repeatedly,

(01:17:50):
particularly opposite a white Jesus is like, be fucking serious, serious, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
Director Norman Jewison was asked by the Vatican Press why
he cast a black actor for Judas, and he said
that Carl Anderson quote tested along with many others in London,
and as always happens, the film really told us what
to do. The test was so successful that there really

(01:18:19):
wasn't any doubt in my mind at all that he
was the most talented actor to play the role unquote,
and I doubt.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
That he's way better than most of the actors in
the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
He's very talented. But you do have to consider and
like and there should be far more casting choices and
hiring practices and everything based on merit. However, when there
is a harmful trope that already exists of casting black
and brown actors to play villains, you gotta be really

(01:18:51):
careful with your casting choices.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
So I agree, and like I think that like and
again it's like we're two white people have this discussion. Yes,
I feel like it's like if Carl Anderson uncontested, I mean,
you can't see the Ben Vereen performance, you can only
hear it. It's also great, But like Carl Anderson, I
feel like, is the definitive Judas in this musical. And

(01:19:14):
it's like, then cast other black actors in other roles,
like because like speaking to this like long criticism of
this movie, if that is the only black actor, you're
giving a prominent role too in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
Norman Jewison's sort of explanation is like, well, that's on you,
that's your fault.

Speaker 3 (01:19:38):
I mean, we're saying that the actor who plays Simon,
Larry Marshall, is a black actor.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
But I but I would also qualify that with not
to the degree that Judas is wrong, he is similarly
dismissed as being naive. I think it's like interesting that
you know, both Judas and Simon are the two apostles
who are saying the most overtly political things. They're played

(01:20:06):
by black actors, and they are both either villainized or dismissed. Right,
And that said, the Larry Marshall performance, Oh boy.

Speaker 3 (01:20:16):
Fun, he's dancing his little heart out.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
He was in the full Monty on Broadway.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, he's also only prominently featured in
one scene.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
To the point where, to be fair, that's most characters
in this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
That's true. But to the point where at the beginning
of this episode where I was like, who's Simon again, Like,
I kind of don't know that character.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
I think theoretically you're supposed to know who it is
because it's it. But that's a part of the problem
of like it's assumed that ever that I mean, it
further shows that this movie is made specifically for a
Western audience or for a like overtly Christian or Jewish audience,
because if you are familiar with the story that it
does not do anything to pull you in on what's

(01:21:04):
going on. But I do, yes, it's while Simon is
played by a black actor, I would say that, Yeah, like,
Simon is not a prominent character, even if he's a
memorable you know, it's a memorable number. Yeah, it's the
best dance number in the movie. It's the most intense
dance number in the movie. I will say King Herod's
song is a really fun dance now that you bring

(01:21:28):
him up, I talk about it. Let's talk about it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
I mean, we'll get to Mary Magdalen. But because we're
kind of on this topic, I would say the queer
coding what of ponchous Pilot and King Herod ponchous Pilot.

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
I feel like for me, poncous Pilot is open to interpretation.
I definitely think I think more. I guess I didn't
really think of it as queer coding. As much as
I thought of it. It was just like, I don't know,
I thought that ponchous Pilot for me was more complicated,
like politically, where it's like he's made out to be
way more sympathetic than makes I guess, But I mean,

(01:22:01):
King Herod, what the hell? What the hell? I don't know.
I would be curious what our listeners think, because I
do think that there is a read of this that
is like, this is a beloved dance number. This is like,
I think, been very embraced for the campy number that

(01:22:24):
it seems to want to be. But the fact that
there is heavy queer coding for seemingly no reason at all,
is you know, unquestionable.

Speaker 3 (01:22:35):
I mean I think the reason is that King Herod
is a villain to Jesus. So they're just going to
do the thing. Yeah, that a lot of media does
Mary Magdalen.

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):
I love Yvonne Elleman. She's so talented, she's so wonderful.
She also had like a number of hits in I
think like the seventies and eighties she was like missus
adult contemporary radio. I guess it's like, unfortunately, there's not
a ton to say about Mary Magdalene as it pertains
to this. I genuinely don't know how much more we

(01:23:08):
get of Mary Magdalene's story, although we could talk about
The Da Vinci Code, which is a documentary about Mary Magdalene.

Speaker 3 (01:23:15):
Yes, feminist text, the da Vinci Code.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
But yeah, I mean she's here. It's I will say, like,
this is a character who is canonically a sex worker,
who is presented as a human right like, is presented
as a human who is loved and can be loved.
And unfortunately that is not something that you frequently see,

(01:23:40):
particularly the further back in history you go. So that's good.
They unfortunately she is really only left to be like,
I love Jesus. That's like it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
Most of the scenes she's in, she's tending to Jesus,
and her whole care is just sort of like there.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
Boyfriend's gonna be killed.

Speaker 3 (01:24:04):
No, And I'm sure that's a source material problem.

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
I no, yeah, I don't. I don't think that they were.
They very Negdalen was a feminist hero who was reduced.
But again, it's like, clearly the agenda of this musical
is to be subversive and to add things, and I
think like in the case of people like Judas, that

(01:24:28):
is done where we do get a clearer look into
his inner life and specifically his politics. With Mary Magdalene, again,
I think it's just like kind of a classic sexist
thing that is done, where it's like she her existence
is political and Jesus's love and acceptance for her is political.

Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
But how does she feel about anything?

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
Exactly? Exactly? And they don't have an interest in it,
which is like, well, if you look at the number
of men that wrote and imposed and directed and adapted, like,
there's just not any It doesn't seem like there's anyone
with any meaningful interest in how she would feel, which
is a bummer because it's like a bummer, but like

(01:25:14):
because there's space for that here, and it like very
cleanly fits into what it seems like the agenda of
this is. But they just are unable to consider her,
like she's treated like almost a person but then close,
so close, and yet they cannot conceive of her having

(01:25:35):
any feeling about something that is not her boyfriends. Yeah,
and washing her boyfriend's feet, come on, gross grosbr all
over him. I think she did canonically do that, but
also yucky.

Speaker 3 (01:25:50):
No, there's a scene where she's doing that. They're saying, no.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
I mean, like in the Bible, I think she's I
think she's a she's a she's a foot freaking the
Bible as well.

Speaker 3 (01:25:58):
See come on.

Speaker 2 (01:25:59):
I mean, I'm not kink shaming, but like, tell me
something else about her.

Speaker 3 (01:26:03):
That's the thing. People with a foot kink. They contain multitudes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
Although she's von Ellman is very fun uh fun gal.
I'm really I think she's uh, she's got a fun
story of like how she got involved and then became
a popular disco artist after this came out, So at
least we got ivon Ellerman disco. I don't know all

(01:26:29):
of this. This movie is also just like so terminally
seventies in every single way that it's like incomprehensible. You're like,
sometimes you're just like, what the why would you do that?

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Everyone's wearing bell bottoms.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
Everyone's like it's just like, I mean, yeah, this is
I'm I'm not the first or last to say this
butt Andre Loyd Webber musical, But it's just like this
musical doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. It's
just it's like it's ridiculous, which is that's why I
fell in love with it, I guess. But yeah, there's

(01:27:03):
sometimes you're like, there there are some actually like oh,
this is a huge problem with this musical, and like
let's trace it to why that might be. And then
there are some things about this musical that you're like,
I don't fucking know. I don't think he knows is Crokats?
Like who fucking knows?

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
Wow? I mean also worth mentioning that if you're if
you're considering like the main three players of this movie
being Jesus, Mary, and Judas, two of those characters are
played by actors of color. Ivon Elleman is mixed. She's Japanese, Chinese,

(01:27:43):
and Irish. But when you consider again a black actor
playing the villain of the story and a woman of
color being given basically no characterization, no story, it's the
illusion of diversity, but it's not meaningful.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
Right, is especially frustrating given like the caliber of a Yeah,
and I'm just gonna keep dragging ted Neely, but like,
given the caliber of performance from Carl Anderson and Vonelleman
compared to ted Neely, You're like, it's just ridiculous. Yeah.
I think that, like there's there's so much about this

(01:28:19):
movie that just like it is such again that the
product of its time, that's like a huge product of
its time issue. I think that I don't know. I'm
curious how this like new stage adaptation is going to
work subvert or not subvert. I really, really, really really
hope that they that this production acknowledges this story's roots

(01:28:41):
in Palestine specifically. I don't feel hopeful because of how
negligent most institutions are in doing so, but but also
in like like the optics that you're talking about. I
don't know, I don't know this. There's a part of
me it's like this this musical is best left in

(01:29:03):
the past, right, But that's the problem with musicals is
that like, if there is a single bop in it,
it will never go away ever, and there are unfortunately
bops in this and so this is uh.

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
This subjective.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
Okay, listen, sorry to be a bitch on your birthday.
But I okay, yeah, you're being a bitch on my birthday.
I yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
So now there's there's some catchy tunes, I suppose, yeah,
but yeah, I mean. Another thing that is not handled
well is the representation of disability in the movie. The
scene where Jesus goes to the leper colony that people
want him to heal them. The characters there, they are

(01:29:52):
of course sick and disabled. They are shown as being
in pain and in desperate need of healthcare should be
just a basic human right, of course, in an occupation
like this, it wouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
And also, I mean, to be fair, two thousand years
in medicine. Yeah, it's not like that we can take
them to the hospital.

Speaker 3 (01:30:13):
But but but there are they are isolated and they're
cast out of society. So this is all very understandable. However,
I would argue that there is another layer that the
movie adds to this as far as like portraying these
people as being creepy and grotesque, I agree, in the
way a lot of media portrays disabled people.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Yes, I agree. And I think it's like yet another
example of like the moments the things in the there
is like a limit to what this production is willing
to subvert exactly, and it's like very telling what it's
willing to suvert. Yeah, and and and that feel that's
from what I understand, is of just straight ahead the

(01:30:58):
way that group is always portrayed, and this movie does
nothing to and also to add the shitty Ted Neely
perform as him being like ew, go away away from me.
I blamed him for that, but it's still fucking awful.

Speaker 3 (01:31:14):
Yeah. The other kind of similar thing is there's a
very very small part like blink and you'd miss it
kind of thing. But there's this part of the movie
where it's during the song where Jesus is asking God
about why he wants Jesus to die and the.

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
Part where the one where he goes, WHOA should I die?
There's a part I want to say that before I die?

Speaker 3 (01:31:42):
Yeah, please do. There's a part where we see a
few like flashes of still images they're like illustrations and
paintings that are kind of flashing on screen as he's singing,
And most of these illustrations are of Jesus being crucified,
but there are a few quick images, and I'm curious

(01:32:02):
if you spotted this, Jamie, there are a few quick
images of like onlookers witnessing the crucifixion that resemble the
very anti Semitic way that Jewish people would be depicted
in like Nazi and other anti Jewish propaganda.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
I did not catch that, but I do feel like
that ties into what we were talking about earlier about
how little this movie pushes back on villainizing Jewish people
in general and blaming them for Jesus's death, while like
what this musical is also doing and like the limits

(01:32:42):
to its empathy is that it was like everyday Jewish
people that forced the occupying force to do this, which
is like, if you you know, think about it for
a microsecond, is fucking ridiculous. But I didn't notice that
they also put a visual to it that's terrific.

Speaker 3 (01:32:59):
It's literally three quick images, maybe two to or three.
They flash on screen for less than a second each,
So it's again like if you're not looking at the
screen at that exact moment, you won't catch it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
But because yeah, I know the sequence you're talking about.
But it's like and again, it's like, these are images
that exist, but why are you choosing to show them?
Like you can there there's a way to show Again,
it's like what I blinked and I missed? I confess
because otherwise it's like it seems like it's trying to

(01:33:31):
say like this, you know, all of the emphasis on
the violence that you see in popular art, which that
fucking sucks because I thought that that idea was kind
of effective, where like that's a familiar image, But like
choosing to cut to those anti Semitic depictions of this,
like centuries long antisemitic propagation is like what you know, again,

(01:33:56):
what are we doing? What is the agenda of this movie?
And no one can answer this, No one can answer
this question, and so maybe we shall put it in
the trash But I and yet I'm saying it two nights,
what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do
with Cynthia Arrivo? Can you fix this? And the answer
is I don't think so, I don't think it's fixable.

Speaker 3 (01:34:16):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
Okay, everybody, quick update from the future. I saw Jesus
Christ Superstar with my mommy at the Hollywood Bowl last
week and ooh, I have thoughts. It was amazing. But
also I have thoughts, as you've been hearing throughout this
entire episode. The first thing I wanted to mention that
we talk about throughout the course of the episode, but

(01:34:39):
I just wanted to address with a little bit more
specificity is talking to the specific moment that this movie
was produced in mostly the West Bank, but with the
cooperation and approval of the Israeli government. Obviously we talked
about that throughout the episode, but specifically I wanted to
make no of the fact that, particularly in Gaza, that

(01:35:04):
occupation was not just ongoing going back to the Nakba
in nineteen forty eight, but also as of nineteen sixty seven,
there was an escalation of violence that led to Gaza
being more aggressively occupied than ever before by Israel, and
in ways that are directly traced to right now. So

(01:35:27):
I just want to, you know, take every opportunity to
not talk about Palestine as if this started two years ago,
and that it is a particularly ugly time for this
production to have taken place in conjunction with the Israeli government,
because Israel was actively and loudly escalating the occupation, and

(01:35:47):
so any act of cooperation with that is horrific. As
far as the Cynthia Christ Superstar production goes, yes, tell
me about it. So it was a no one to
hear that Cynthia Arivo Superstar is incredible, like Ted Neely
found dead in a ditch, like she she's I mean,

(01:36:10):
she's like one of the greatest performers living. I'm pretty
sure she's so amazing. Her her rendition of Gusemini was
like I'd never heard the song before, Like not to
be over dramatic, but like it's whatever the bull fits
seventeen thousand people. Everyone was crying. There was a like

(01:36:31):
standing ovation. It was like low key religious experience, Like
it was really really She's incredible. Weirdly, and I wasn't
expecting this because I don't next to nothing about this man.
Adam Lambert is Judas really good, really really like he
totally made the part his own. I just like I

(01:36:52):
was really taken aback at how awesome he was. I
really really liked him. Ral Esparsa, who is a iconic
Broadway actor played Pilot. And here's where I'm going to
be controversial and say I did not like his pilot

(01:37:12):
really very much. There were clearly roll Aesparsa heads in
the house, Kitlyn, I think. I think the thing he's
best known for is that song being a Love You
know that one?

Speaker 3 (01:37:25):
Nope?

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):
Okay, well then I sang for a reason. That is
what he's best known for the mainstream Like, he's an
incredible singer, a credible performer, but I just did not
like his approach to Pilot. I'll be perfectly honest with you.
I and it actually, even though we talk about throughout
the episode, how and this is obviously still true that
Pilot is like overly empathized with in this rendition, it

(01:37:50):
did make me appreciate Barry Dennan's performance as Pilot much
more because like, if that's going to be the approach
of the production, you've got to sell it, and Barry
Dennon does sell it, and I don't think her all
Asparsa did. Moving on to Mary Magdalen played by Philip A.
Su who most famously played Eliza in Hamilton, that I

(01:38:12):
think is like her biggest credit she's great, Like we
talked about throughout the episode, she's great as Mary, and
Mary has basically nothing to do, so there's an upper
limit to what she is able to do. But it
was great and it was also really cool seeing they
were not leaning away from the lesbian undertones of Cynthia
Arrivo and Philip A. Su as Jesus and Mary. It

(01:38:35):
was great, nice background of the production, I guess is
in the expected obnoxious, racist, misogynous ways. There was a
wave of Fox News backlash to Cynthia Arrivo's casting as
Jesus because YadA YadA, a black woman as Jesus. Never
mind what we've talked about. What you know, Jesus was

(01:38:59):
not white, and Cynthia Rivo's fucking Cynthia Arrivo. You should
be thanking her for being willing to do it. I
think she's next playing Dracula on the West End, which
is like, she's just she's just doing whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
I love that. I know.

Speaker 2 (01:39:14):
I kind of want my mom because my mom would
die for her. And my mom was like, do you
think we could go? I was like, oh my god, okay,
too much, too much. We can't go international for Cynthia Rivo.
It's too much. But so that was a background to
the production. It was very very well reviewed, it was
really good. But I do feel like, and maybe I

(01:39:35):
talked about this earlier in the episode, there are very
glaring missed opportunities, particularly doing Jesus Christ Superstar right now.
Not acknowledging the genocide is I think pretty inexcusable. And
it's not just something that I that didn't happen, which
unfortunately I wasn't surprised, but like, wasn't something I saw

(01:39:56):
in the press surrounding it at all, which I think
kind of it speaks to the media, but it also
speaks to how americanized and divorced from its context that
this musical has become over time, when if you're paying
attention to what the musical is, it's about resistance in
the face of an oppressive force, which if that's not Palestine,

(01:40:19):
what is, you know, and taking place in the exact
same location. It's inexcusable to put a massive production of
this together and not call attention to that, if not
actively do something. But that is not what this production did,
and in fact, they cast a pretty prominent Zionist leaning

(01:40:39):
celebrity to play King Herod that being Josh Gadd. Oh, yeah,
that was not something I was. I mean, I guess
I just didn't know Josh Gadd's politics because I famously
hate Josh Gadd anyways, and it turns out I hate.

Speaker 3 (01:40:54):
Fully Born on the podcast before we and.

Speaker 2 (01:40:57):
Yeah, so whoever emailed me saying that I that I
was wrong to joh Gad, fuck you. But but yeah,
I mean, not only to completely not acknowledge the genocide
that is happening from the side of the Israeli government
in this musical that takes place in the same exact location,
they cast a prominent Zionist to be a prominent role

(01:41:21):
in it. So I won't even speak to his performance,
because who fucking cares? That said, Cynthia Arrivo and Adam Lambert,
they should take that show in the road, and they
should take it on the road with a production that
is not afraid to discuss the context that is happening
in because it felt very, very glaring and like basically

(01:41:47):
centrist stuff is just like, well, can't we just have fun,
you guys? And you're like not, when you're showing the
story of Jesus' crucifixion, you fucking dumbass that said I
laughed to cry. And that's my update.

Speaker 3 (01:42:06):
Thank you. I'm glad it was an enjoyable time. It was,
and now we will travel back to the.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
Past before I had to see Josh Gadden person bless
her heart.

Speaker 3 (01:42:19):
So so back to the originally recorded episode. Do you
have anything else you want to talk about?

Speaker 2 (01:42:28):
I don't think so, no, I yeah, this is definitely
like it's a movie that is deeply problematic that had
a very strong effect on me as a kid. I
do like, I think that there are elements to this
movie that I still really appreciate that are mostly connected
to Carl Anderson, honestly, and I think just like further,

(01:42:52):
I don't know it is it like when you think
of a dated project, this is just this is like
the most nineteen seventy three they Oh yeah. The last
I was going to say is again, it's like there
is a vague moment of being anti Vietnam War. Yeah,
and I like that. I like that. Again, It's it's unclear.

(01:43:13):
I mean, I'm sure in nineteen seventy three is very
clear where there is a moment where Judas is pursued
by tanks.

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
Which would have been Israeli tanks.

Speaker 2 (01:43:21):
Which would have been is again, so it's like the
it means nothing, but that was the intention of it,
and it's like, yeah, I mean, and that's again where
it's like the project just fails for that reason, where
it's like, if you're using occupying tanks to make an
anti war statement, you're not doing anything. You're doing worse

(01:43:42):
than nothing. So as far as the movie goes, it's
like impossible to get past. As far as the musical,
I mean the musical as far as I know, you know,
it was just in the West End and then on Broadway,
and it was specifically the Norman Jewis in production that
was making all these calls. But either way, it ages
not great. I guess my final thought is I love

(01:44:05):
Carl Anderson.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
He does a great job RIP. The last thing I
want to do is just a call to action. Something
I've done recently is compile a list of links on
my link tree from families in Gaza who have reached
out to me on Instagram asking for help. And so
I've basically just started compiling all of those and donating and.

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):
We'll link that below as well, and we will make
contributions from our Patreon to that as well. I hope
that most of our listeners are already you know, understand
what is going on in our following reliable sources about that.
That would be another I think call to action is
to divest from news sources that are not covering, that

(01:44:52):
are either not covering or downplaying or both sides yng
what is objectively and has been for so long, an
active genocide of the Palestinian people. So not only giving
directly to families who need direct aid, but actively pushing
back on these false, half assed narratives that we see

(01:45:14):
pushed at the highest level.

Speaker 3 (01:45:17):
Also follow the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment and sanctions.
It's a Palestinian lead movement that has a list of
companies to boycott because that is something that does enact change.

Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
Yeah, and it's something direct you can do. Right now,
we will link all of those below. And yeah, I
think as far as ending this episode, I will be
making a five hundred dollars donation to PCRF for my birthday.

(01:45:54):
If anyone would like to join me in doing that,
please do. They are and have been doing really, I mean,
as we've talked about many times on the show, they're
doing really important work. Yeah, this movie does not pass
the bachel test.

Speaker 3 (01:46:07):
Sure doesn't even come close.

Speaker 2 (01:46:08):
And I don't even really kind of want to skip
the nipples. I don't think we deserve, we don't need
to give nipples to movies that were made with Israel exactly.
But it doesn't pass the Backel test. And it's and
that's my birthday.

Speaker 3 (01:46:22):
And that's your birthday. Happy birthday, Jamie. Thank you, Thank
you for listening. Listeners. Don't forget about our upcoming tour
in the Midwest.

Speaker 2 (01:46:32):
Absolutely, we will be there in just a couple of weeks.
We will be in Indianapolis, Chicago, Madison, and Minneapolis. We
hope to see you there talking about the Star Wars prequels.

Speaker 3 (01:46:45):
I'm sorry, sorry, and you're welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:46:48):
Yeah, and we'll see you there. Bye bye.

Speaker 3 (01:46:56):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
k Lyndarante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Moe laboord Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch
is designed by Jamie loftis and a special thanks to
Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

(01:47:19):
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