Love, Simon with Matt Rogers

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, Hello, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is
Jamie Loftus and my name is Caitlin drown Day. We
get a few messages at the top of the show.
Today we have some upcoming show dates including UH Live.
Bechtel Cast in Los Angeles will be covering Anastasia Ever
Heard Of It with guest Anna Sara Gina at the

(00:20):
Ruby Theater. And that's July and that is the episode
we were doing for your birthday. So and it's our
last show in l A for a couple of months,
so be sure to come out celebrate with us, bring
me a bunch of presents while you're at it. I
will be as rest for sure. I will be dressed

(00:41):
as a resputed um and I would say it would
be the last time to incentivize people to go, but
I know it won't be. Uh. And the reason we
won't be here for the summer is because we will
both be doing shows in Europe. That's right, That's why
we'll be gone from l A for a little bit.
Now you understand Dad it because Jamie, what are you doing?

(01:03):
I'm bringing my solo show Boss Whom Is Girl to
Edinburgh Fringe Festival and London. If you are not familiar,
is my One Woman's show about an evil corporate feminist
who uses feminism for bad, unlike us who use it
for good. Um, it's it's a lot of Elizabeth, so
much fun. I've seen it many times. You're Caitlyn's a

(01:24):
stand of the show. I don't pressure her to go,
but I'm really excited about it. I've never done Fringe before,
so if you're a UK backtel head, I'd love to
see you there. I'll be in London doing it on
July eighth at the Bill Murray okay, sure, only five
pounds ago and those will be the only two shows
I'll be I'll be doing there for Boss and His Girl,

(01:46):
and then i'll be at Edinburgh Fringe every damn night
from July one through August at Pleasants, Baby Grand please
come to those. I don't know anyone there, and it
would be so great to see a friendly face shows
in Europe too. Why thank you for bringing it up,
Because I'm doing probably mostly stand up shows, um, some

(02:09):
in London, some in Edinburgh, some maybe I'm going to
be in Dublin too. I don't have any shows booked
there yet, but until maybe he until you're like, hey, Caitlin,
uh do this show in Dublin And I'm also going
to be some other places in Europe to any Athens,
Greece listeners, because I'll be there. I don't know what

(02:32):
the comedy scene is like there. We're traveling women now, yes,
you gotta deal with it. We're going around the world,
so stay tuned with maybe announcing additional day. It's mystery
question mark who knows. So keep checking betelcast dot com
on our live appearances tab. That's where you can find
the links to all of their shows and more so,
thank you for listening and enjoy the episode that you're

(02:55):
about to hear. On the bell Cast, the questions asked
if movies have women in them, are all their discussions
just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the
patriarchy zef and best start changing it with the beck
Del Cast. Hello and welcome to the Becktel Cast. My

(03:17):
name is Caitlin Dronte and Jamie loved it and we
talked about the portrayal and representation of women and movez
yes and I said that so aware I liked it.
I liked it. I like you made a choice and
I and I was. It's like when you're watching a
movie and you're like, that was a choice, and I
come back to it. If she backs out, I'll respect

(03:38):
her list. It's not my favorite choice, but I've never
really liked that that's the one you made. It was
a mistake, and I am I'm stopping. I love my
favorite thing to do on stages, make a choice, feel
a little bit of hesitation, immediately back up on it,
and lose the entire audience. I love that when they're like, oh,
she's really going for it. Oh she realizes it's not working.

(03:58):
Oh she's receding into herself, and we have to spend
forty five more minutes with her that I keep telling
what happened to me last week? You know, wonderful, What
a what a gift. Anyway, so we talk about we
use the Bectel test as a jumping off point to
initiate this larger conversation. And the Bechtel Test, of course,

(04:18):
is a media test created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, and
it requires that a movie or anything with a narrative
has two female defining characters with names. They have to
talk to each other, and they cannot talk about men. Unbelievable.
I wonder if the Lorena bob it. Thank you, Henry,

(04:39):
I'm just gonna keep talking about it. I wonder if
it passes it doesn't pass the Bectel test of Loraina
Bobbit chops her husband's stick off and drews it into
the woods, even if she's not talking to anyone, that
does automatically passed the Becktel test. Yes, okay, um, cool,
Well shall we begin. Let's do it our guest today,
we have a great one. I'm excited. He hosts the

(05:01):
last culture Eristas podcast with Bone Yang, and they've been
on tour with the I Don't Think so Honey Live Tour.
It's Matt Rogers. Hi. Hi, Honestly, what I loved that
you said before, my favorite thing to do is make
a choice, and that could have been the end of
the end of the sentence. And then you're like to

(05:22):
make a choice and then back away, and I was like, perfect,
and then you were like and then they're stuck with
me forty five minutes. So it wasn't very specific scenario.
And I loved every sentence it could have been compounded to,
and the sentence that ultimately it was Plymouth, Massachusetts. The
whole hour of it incredible, wonderful. Oh we forgot to mention. Okay,
So full disclosure, Matt. We have an embargo on mail

(05:43):
guests that we that we sometimes lift when the time
is right and the time is right for you. We
only yeah, we only do it for best of the best. Okay.
So who have you had on what's the company? Alfred Molina?
Oh yeah, we had to lift. Well yeah, I mean
there was no choice. I mean, I like, I forgot
that he identified as any gender. I was like an

(06:06):
idea than a gender. Unbelievable. And I heard one Patrigan
just in the room, just now. Yes, So we've been
we've been very choosy. So you know, you're really some
top tier ship. Honestly, I'm really grateful that you guys
have chosen me. And I do think that the movie
I chose for you guys like, it's good that I'm
here to talk about it. It's only white gay talk

(06:27):
about white gay bullshit. Okay, I am No one else's
take counts. This is a white gay fantasia, and I'm
here to expound on it. So today's movie, of course,
is Love Simon. What is your history with have you
read the book, what's your like, what's your relationship? I

(06:47):
have not read the book. I did see the film
in theaters. I was a good supporter of this LGBT cinema.
Um well, when it came out, I was kind of like,
oh boy, like what's what's this going to be? And
then I I kind of was like, you know what,
let's give it a shot. And I did end up
crying by the end of the film. I actually cried
a couple of times. I saw it with my best
friend Sudie Green, and we we went and we were

(07:10):
emotionally affected by it. And then I had that moment
of everyone that had criticism of it that was like
justifiably good criticism. I was kind of like defensive about
it because I was like, but but just let us
have this and then but also it's like not a
perfect film, and also it's it's super like for the privileged.

(07:30):
But I did like enjoy the film, you know what
I mean as a movie. I was like, I'd rather
see this movie than like fucking paper Heart or whatever
that ship was with, you know what I mean. I
just was like, at least it's different than that. I
don't have patience for a John Green joint. I just
don't I don't care, Like I really don't care about
like this, like sort of I don't even know if

(07:51):
i'd call it twee, but like this kind of like
mystical team girl bullshit, I don't care, Like she always
has to I for like The Boy to learn a
lesson and that's the movie, right, And also The Boy
and those movies just so fucking boring. And also if
there's like a sort of interesting male character, you know,
there has to be a boring character. It's like in
those films, like one of them has to be boring.

(08:13):
And I'm not right. I'm not saying that Simon isn't boring,
because Simon is pretty boring and has an Elliott Smith
Foster and and and Radiohead April two written on his
chalkboard walls. You're just like, man, he's like you know
other gays, he's and that's not like the other guys.
He's straight. Yeah, he's like, may as well be straight.

(08:36):
And also like when he's asking his friend when he
does come out to his one friend and he's like,
did you expect anything? Did you suspect anything? And she's like,
I mean no, like because you're too freaking boring to
have any personality to draw anything on the most exciting
thing about you as a poster on your wall. Know,
there's a lot of I mean, and I guess teenagers
like I definitely did this to some extent, but a

(08:59):
lot of like this is the character and you can
tell because this is their bedroom, like boor At kid.
Like boor At kid, You're like, oh, I know the
vibe of this kid. It's boor At kids. I actually
I was like justifying to my friends why he was
so boring. I'm like, the thing is like when you're
day in high school, you don't have a personality because
you're not allowed to have one, Like he's saying he
likes Radiohead because he can't really say, like Christina Aguilera,

(09:20):
you know what I mean, like all these things true,
And I was like, you know what, Yes, that could
be true, or maybe the filmmakers are just like he's
a kid that likes Radiohead, which I think both are
equally possible. I don't know. I want to assume it's
smarter than it is, but it could just be like
a fine B plus movie, which I love, I love,
I love that for it. I really like this movie,

(09:41):
and I have I'm coming at it with some blind spots,
but I saw it twice in theaters and I did
a good lots of good laughs, some good cry and
thank you for that. I was very emotionally invested in
this story and that, of course know it's it's not
without its issues, but we'll talk about those. But I

(10:04):
generally really liked this movie. I saw it this morning.
I laughed, I cried. Yeah, I liked it. And then
when I was like, who wrote this movie? And it's
that this is us writers, which makes so much sense
because they're pulling. Yeah, they're pulling at the exact like
there is an element to this movie at times where
it's like you feel like your heart strings are being
pulled very scientifically and methodically. They're like first I'm going

(10:26):
to do this, and then I'm gonna throw in a
dead scene, and then like then Jennifer Garner's the mom,
which is like at this point, that's what she does,
that she This is my second favorite Jennifer Garner mom role.
But what's the first favorite? Juno Juno? Yeah, I think
I might like this movie more than Juno or maybe
definitely or maybe maybe it's been a long time since

(10:46):
I've seen Juno, you know, just to like flat out
say this just up top, because I already feel myself
being like needlessly cynical about it. It was very kind
of cool to see a depiction of two gay kids
kissing at the and and then everyone sharing, you know
what I mean, because that would never have happened when
I was in high school. And I think that, like,

(11:07):
you know, the criticism of this movie like it is
what it is, but also it's like, come on, it's
it's a nice movie where good things happened to someone
who struggles, and you know, I can relate to the struggle.
And sure, like I think we as a society are
still progressing and in some cases regressing, but like you know,

(11:28):
we're always hoping for more intersectionality in movies and in
in media, but you know, it has to start somewhere,
and I feel like this is a good in the
right direction. And the fact that this movie had like
a gigantic release and it was very successful and like
well regarded that, yeah that says a lot. Yeah. I
actually made my parents go see it. I was like,

(11:48):
you should go see this movie because my dad like,
and my dad said it hurt his feelings. I was like,
why did it hurt your feelings? He was like, well,
the scene with the debt, because to be honest with you,
the scene the dad. And I think Josh Dumel's best performance.
Let's just say, I don't know if I've ever seen
him be like, I've never been impressed with him before
this movie. He was good. And also I think like

(12:09):
it's kind of it's that kind of thing where it's like,
you know, you're giving that scene as an actor, and
like it's probably pretty hard to mess that up, like
it's pretty emotional situation. But he was great. And I
remember I said to my dad, I was like, you
should go see this movie. And he's like the scene
with the dad about him missing it, that was like
very similar. When I was watching that scene, I actually
like was very emotionally if I did by it because

(12:30):
it mirrored the own scene in my own life very
I mean even the vest he was wearing. Remember he's
wearing that coffee dad vest over a flannel with a
hat on. That was my dad's like that that he
was doing like Rich Rogers drag in that scene, And
I was like oh boy. And so the way he
was being emotional about it, they were standing very far

(12:51):
away from each other. It was kind of just like,
it's that kind of masculinity that there's like that thing
that needs to get broken down. Extra it did a
like a job in that scene of depicting that and
so so between that and also the scene with the
mom and there was lots of stuff that was gonna
get me. Sure, Yeah, it's I mean I cried a

(13:12):
lot during that like sequence of him coming out to
different people where just and then one of the scenes
would end, you like, and then another one would start
you'd be like, ah. The sister too, was tough for me.
When the sister comes to his room and is like, Simon,
are you okay? Is it true? And he was like
get out of here and yelled at the sister. Had

(13:34):
I wish they had had more of a reconciling somewhere
in the end they don't really get that. I guess
he gives her a queens in art and that was. Yeah,
that that was I think that was for me, the
most privileged moment of the movie. I'm like, Simon, where
did you get this money? For a least everyone seems
very wealthy. That is one of I like that. It

(13:55):
did make me laugh a lot where where like where
it starts where like I'm like you, I just got
a car from my parents. My house has five rooms,
Like my mom is incredibly liberal, like as if she
were in her early twenties in New York City, like
smashed the patriarchy and they're fucking gigantic house. I am

(14:15):
assuming was bought with an oil fortune. Like, we don't
know that, it's crazy his mom is a therapist. Oh, yes,
they do say that, right, I don't know, Yeah, we
don't know what his dad does. Though I don't think
I know. I don't think they say. You know. That
was actually something about it where I was like maybe
something they were going for which didn't really land and
just felt like privilege. But maybe what they were going
for was like a kid like this that it seems

(14:38):
like has everything can be hurting very much. And I
think that that is like something I sort of related to.
My family was an upper middle class. We were middle
class comfortable. My mom was a hairdresser and my dad
was a phizzed teacher. Like we we had a nice house,
but I was still in pain every single day, like
an immense amount of emotional pain. And I didn't think

(14:59):
I was lucky, you know what I mean? And so
I think something that the film could have done was
maybe just given more of an acknowledgement of that sort
of like privilege. Sure, he comes from a place of
economic privilege, of white privilege, and we can talk more
about that, but first, how would we do the freaking
recap recap he I'm talking about the specifically, so we

(15:25):
meet Simon, he is he describes himself as a He's
It's like he's like Brochure, Like, oh my god, You're like,
is he twenty two? Isn't It was? The first thing
I did was google his age to see if I
should feel like a pervert, but it's yeah. I was

(15:46):
just like, oh this is fine, and I'm actually going
to see, like where's he at, what's he doing? Yeah?
Of course, And he would describe himself as a normal teenager.
You know, he's a senior in high school. He's got
some great friends. Their names are Leah, Nick and Abby group. Yes,
another Brochure friend group. He's got a great family and

(16:09):
things are going pretty well for him, except that he's
got this one big secret. It's that he's gay and
no one knows. He's still completely in the closet. So
at school, there's like this blog that's popular among the students.
It's Leah's only character trait is that she loves I
relate so closely with Leah of being this like calling

(16:31):
a friend frantically, being like refresher Internet like just God,
and being in love with Game and forever like that's
just she. I felt very close. Um, And she says, hey,
did you see the latest post. It's from a guy
who posted anonymously as code named Blue, and he is

(16:54):
saying that he is gay, and Simon is like, oh
my god, there's someone else like me. So he writes
him an email. He writes Blue an email, Shock. I
love that they took the time to show us that
he made a shell Gmail account. I'm like, that is
appropriately saro. So he writes Blue this email saying like, hey,

(17:15):
I've also got a big secret. But he also signs
it anonymously as again code name Shock, so they still
don't know each other's identities. And then he's like waiting
for him to write back, and then Blue finally writes back.
Tony Hale is screwball comedy. He's like buster blue thing
all over the place. Tony Hale's character was a little touchy.

(17:38):
For mind. He was a very touchy vice prince and
he was completely inappropriate in a way that's like maybe
we could have seen a movie about this like fifteen
years ago, and like we would have said nothing, but
like now it's like stop being this way with these kids.
It felt a little out of place with like the
movie very modern, but then it was like, oh the
like it's I know, this movie is like clearly pulling

(17:59):
from a lot of John hughesy kind of stuff, but
that was the one parents. I'm like, that's like just
straight up textbook John. He is perverted like he was.
He was dangerous. Yeah, I was like he should be fired.
But he's like, I've got a tender date tonight and
I'm trying to fuck and he tells that to his
student and then he like claused. The student is like

(18:21):
we can talk about this here. I was like, you're fired.
Its wild. So then anyways, but he seems to be
having a good time in the role. He's having a
great time in the role. I bet his day he's
tossing in some improv line seeing what sticks. I wonder
if it was ever even discussed on set, like hey,
this principle is like a little edgy huh. And they

(18:41):
were just like, no, he's fun and then like his
last beat is like a bizarro no homo joke. He
was like, you're just like Tony, You're You're Emmy nominated.
You don't need this. Another great teacher in the film,
Righting love that character. She was amazing and she had

(19:02):
all the fun. She had a lot of the L
O L one. Definitely. She is the theater teacher. And
Simon is doing theater. He's doing a production of Cabaret
with Abby, his other friend, which to me was like,
I don't know if this guy is being closeted, would
be even be in the play. That took me back
to my high school days where I didn't do anything really, no,

(19:23):
did no plays, didn't know nothing, because that was that
would have been a huge tell. Either could be like
a dead giveaway kind of situation. Yeah, and I mean
I didn't even have to deal with it being Cabaret,
like he's playing like the MC in Cabaret or who
was playing it was like an extra Okay, So he
was in the cabaret. But either way, in cabaret, if

(19:44):
you're in cabaret, you're doing some sexy. It is a
sexy hip movement. I gotta see cabaret and Hello Dolly,
my SERI and Dolly change. No, it's a dancer. I
was never in any of the musicals because I have
the worst singing voice in the world. It's true. So, yeah,

(20:11):
the Lady Gaga stars, thank you so much that I'm
going to be discovered on this podcast. Okay, So Blue
finally writes back, and he and Simon get to talking
over email about their experience with being gay, and they're
like sexual awakenings and all this stuff. They're both very articulate. Yeah,

(20:32):
they're great writers. They're like screenwriters there. It's almost like
they've written many episodes of This is Us. They also
capitalize and use they use punctuation. I'm like, this is
a teenager. But like, who were the guys they say
gave them their sexual awakenings again, Daniel Radcliffe and John Snow, yes,

(20:52):
those are good ones. Those are They show two very
different young gays. What I mean like, well, actually no,
they're both into young Yeah, from like very nerdy properties
yeah exactly. Okay, well, yeah, these these boys are bound
to each other. You're right. I liked I liked when

(21:13):
they cut from the john Snow to like every teenager
wearing a john Snow t shirt in the high school.
You're like. That was very stressful for me because it's
all it's kind of like shamy for like how people look.
It's like, oh, here's a guy who's like he's kind
of chubby, and like here's a guy who's brown, and
it's like I wouldn't want to date any of Then

(21:33):
they do do a little bit of that, yeah, with
no awareness. Right, Yeah, that was a little It's weird.
I was thinking the whole time. I was like, what
if Blue is not Hollywood hot? At the I thought
about that too. Spoiler Allard, he is absolutely Hollywood. He
is completely is he over eighteen? He is Thank god

(21:58):
you can jack off to him to guild. But he's like,
I'm it was so like, I don't know, he's like
Hollywood hotter than Simon. You're just I was like, it
would have been an interesting choice for it to be
like someone who was not the hottest person ever, But
like whatever, they it was a good kiss. Yeah, I
cried during it anyway. Okay, So Simon starts to speculate

(22:23):
about who Blue might be, and then at first he
thinks it's this guy named Bram who plays soccer with
his friend Nick, and then emailing back and forth still
and then at one point Simon leaves this email logged
in on a computer at the school library. Enter bore
at kids, Enter Martin, who sucks so bad, but he

(22:44):
that actor does a great job of making that character
so unlikable and well that kid, that kid that you
were just like, why am I involved with this person? Like?
He really was well well drawn out. He to me
felt like the logical conclusion of Chicken Nuggets kid from
eighth grade. Really that makes me so sad. You don't

(23:04):
think that Chicken Nuggets grade like figured himself out. Oh
my god, I had so much hope for Chicken Nuggets.
I thought Chicken Nuggets kid was the best I thought
right there in eighth grade, Elsie Fisher had literally found
her husband. I'm like, girl, it worked out for you
in the end. You fucking nailed it. Like Chicken Nugg

(23:24):
gets an interesting TV and Morty and he's already he
has romantic instincts at eighth grade. Come on, I take
it all back and take it off worse than him.
He's probably also going to be sucking dynamite in bed
later on because he has to try the worst people
in better the hottest. He's going to make it come

(23:45):
because no one's ever going to tell like, well, hot people,
They're just never going to be told that they're not
doing something right exactly ever. And it's like, I'm not
going to be the one to tell them I'm just
happy to be here, or that they have to do something.
For example, Simon, and when we find out who Blue
is later and he is Hollywood hot. When they finally
do have sex, it's going to be like, well, who

(24:05):
tries you know what I mean? They're going to have
to take turns, making an ass like kind of rubbing
against each other in a very unsexy way because Blue
is like, I'm ten out of ten hot, and Simon
is like, well, I'm eight out of ten hot and white.
So so he's like, think anything anyway, anyway, we have

(24:27):
to take a quick break, but we'll come right back.
So Martin logs in onto the that Simon was using
and he sees the emails. So then he approaches Simon
and basically blackmails him and says, hey, I really like

(24:50):
your friend Abby. Everyone likes his friend, yes, and I
need your help getting with her. And if you don't
help me, I will expose your emails and out you
to the school. But there is something about this girl
where you kind of believe that she's like the one
that she's the one that everyone wants to be with.
It makes sense, and she's like a good character and

(25:10):
she's a good friend and all that too, so they
don't fall into the pitfall of like the bitchy hot girl.
And they made it that she was new to the
school too. They made that she had only been there
for like a year, so you buy it even more
because there's like that new girl who there's like an
air of mystery about you know what I mean? That
was a smart and she was the only one who
seemed to be of like a lower socio economic class

(25:33):
because she lives in an apartment building versus a huge
McMansion like everyone else lives in. So there's that um
but okay, so anyway, so Simon agrees to help Martin
so that he's not being outed. So Simon invites Martin
to the Halloween party that Bram is throwing that weekend.

(25:53):
They all go to the party and like Nick and
Abbey are vibing, Martin tries to butt in but it's
not working, and then like Nick wants to ask Abby out.
I'm like having deja vu as you're saying, like Nick
and Abbey are vibing, because I'm sure I've heard this
in regards to some people. For sure they've been vibing
for millennia someone. But because Simon is like, beholden to

(26:17):
this awful blackmail situation of Martin's, he has to be like, no, Nick,
don't ask Abby out. She's dating this college dude. He
makes up some imaginary person. Yeah, he becomes a prolific
liar in a web of lies. A web of lies. Um, meanwhile,
a teen lie. So many teen movies are based on bets,

(26:38):
tricks or lies. Yes. So meanwhile Simon is working up
the nerve to tell Bram that he's Jacques at this party,
but then he walks in on Bram kissing a girl,
so he's like, well, Blue is not Bram never mind.
So now Simon thinks that Blue might be this guy
who's a server at the Waffle house. Also Cutie again,

(27:02):
is he a teenager or is he? We have to
be very careful about who we say is hot. And
I'm pretty sure that no one in this movie is
a legitimate teenager except maybe the little Sister. Sure everyone
else is in their ties based on my cursory, Like

(27:22):
the Little Sisters, I AMDB and she's got like a
fucking glamour shot and it's like age thirty six. She
just did like fucking Lady Macbeth. I hope. So okay.
So then Simon comes out to Abby and it was
so that girl that you come out to I loved
that scene too, That's great. Yeah, she was like, oh yeah, sure.

(27:44):
I'm like, oh cool, you're still too hot for this,
You're still too hot for that situation. She's like, I'm
not surprised. I wasn't expecting anything, but I'm not surprised.
Crazy to think about, because I'm also incredibly smart and
perceptive and nice and very chill as well. There's nothing
wrong with me actually, And then something that this happens
in a movies a lot, where it's like she's the only,
like you point out, she's the only character who's like

(28:06):
a little bit poorer than everyone else, and that is
always like weirdly exoticized in like teen movies, like, oh,
she's kind of from the other side of the track.
She's got a little bit of otherworldly wisdom from what
with being poor and so like, it's just like she's
been hungry once, right, like, so like she's actually got
a lot to teach us. And it was right and

(28:26):
it would like definitely set off some red flags if
she was like the only person of color in the
movie who also happened to be the only person who
was of a lower class. But you see like Nick
and Bram also with huge houses, so it's like, okay, well,
at least they're not doing that kind of house. Does
we don't see Ethan's house? Which one's Ethan? Ethan is

(28:49):
the only out kid in school. Oh no, we do
not see his home. Correct, we should say there is
another out kid at school named Ethan. And because of
the way Ethan gets treated, Simon stays in the closet,
but he's reluctant to Yeah, he wants, like Blue and Jacque,
to reveal their real identities to each other, but Blue
isn't ready, so we still don't know who Blue is. Meanwhile,

(29:13):
like Abby is warming up to Martin and Nick is like,
fuck it, I'm just gonna tell Abbe that I like her.
But like Simon has to keep up this sharade, and
he's like, what if you consider Leah instead of Abby?
Because Simon thinks that Leah is in love with Nick.
She want not idiot, She's in love with him. It's

(29:35):
so obvious. That was one thing I thought was a
little not right with the movie. Is it's like in
that scene where Leah, who like fully sleeps over Simon's
house in his room, somehow that's allowed. Um, She's like,
I just want to love one person, looking him dead
in the eyes, and she's like I like you basically,
and he's just like, yeah, anyway, good night, And he

(29:57):
I knew. I knew every time one of my friends
was interested in me. It set me off into an
interior panic, which I think was something that could have explored. Sure, yeah,
like a part of it's a big part of being
closet in high school. It's like navigating like the fact
being that you are expected to have like a heterosexual experience.

(30:18):
Maybe he's just not very personal, like I'm I'm rarely
knowing that it's hard to know, like he's so borning
but a great, perceptive, beautiful writer and emails, but it
doesn't can't take any signals from someone he's known for
his entire life. That was a little bit off, And
it's also I don't know, Yeah, I felt. I felt.
I felt really bad for Leah's character almost the entire

(30:40):
movie because she doesn't really get a win at all,
down to the very end where Simon's like, get in
the back seat, my sexy boyfriends taking your spot, So
Leah has to sit in the back where her two
friends are french ng and then like the only boy
she's ever been in love with is with his sexy
boyfriend in the front seat, and it's like, God, you

(31:00):
sucked down that ice coffee like you've earned it. But
she is going to Leah is literally the type of
girl who fucking blossoms in college. College. She is going
to be crushing Dick in college. Yeah, Like guys are
gonna be lining up because she's super smart. She's like
television star beautiful. In fact, she is the star of
Thirteen Reasons Why on Netflix. Oh is that okay? I

(31:23):
see I have only watched the first episode of thirteen
reasons why. But it freaked me out because it's a bad,
dangerous show. It's like suicide is actually sick, like like
gikes um. Okay. So then they're all at the homecoming
football game and Lyle the waffle house guy is there
and he's like, Hey, what's Abby's deal. She's so he's

(31:47):
not gay after all, so he's not blue. Um. And
then Martin thinks that he needs to make this big
grand gesture with Abby, which Simon and I was so
mad when he did this. That was Simon's idea. Simon
gave him that idea to do a grand jest. I
would argue, he just says, go bigger. Well, he says yeah.

(32:10):
To me, it's he's just trying to get Martin off,
just like says a cliche, just to like get rid
of them. I guess, I don't know, maybe I'm being
too mean to Sigmon. But even in that waffle house
scene where this is like one of the most unrealistic
fact to the movie to me, in the waffle house
scene where Martin does that thing of standing on the
table and my name's Abby and I'm beautiful and I

(32:31):
deserve the world, and then Eventually he convinces her to
stand and she becomes okay with it. I'm like, like,
that just reminds me of so many tense drama club
parties that I did not want to scream at and
yet and she also like it gives the weird vibe
that she's like now going to have a crush on him, right.
I was like, no, I think this is like fully humiliating.

(32:52):
It's like not in line with her character. Yeah, I've, I've,
I don't know. I felt bad for her in that
scene and I was like, Simon, can you help out
with this? But you know he's being black mountains, right
or right? So at the big game, Martin steals the
microphone from the student who is singing the national anthem

(33:12):
and very publicly professes his love for Abby, and then
she's like, I don't like you like that, and so
like to draw attention away from his humiliation, Martin leaks
Simon's emails and outs him on that big Crab blog.

(33:33):
The little sister comes running in. She's concerned. He's like,
get the funk out of here. A little bit before this,
Simon thinks that Blue might now be this guy Cal
who is in cabaret with him. There's like a little
speculation about that. So now that Simon has been outed,
he's freaking out. He goes up to cal and he's like,

(33:53):
are you blue, and Call says I'm not, and then
he ends up coming out to his family Simon does.
It doesn't go very well. His his dad like a
joke about It's dad is like the king of microaggressions,
like every time he's on screen means well, but he's
not nailing it. Yeah, So it had been like Christmas

(34:13):
break and now everyone's back at school and his friends
confront him and they're like, Abby's like, you pimped me
out and that's very fucked up. H Nick is like,
you tried to set me up with Leah. That was
fucked up. And then Leah's like you're the one I
was in love with and then you tried to set
me up with Nick. That was very fucked up. I
hated this scene. This scene sucked to me because it's like,

(34:36):
this kid just went through one of the worst things
in his life, maybe he might ever go through, and
all of you can't fucking deal with the fact that,
like you went through like a week long period of
like minor inconvenience socially because he was fucking getting black
mouthed and drowning. I hated this and for them to
leave him like that, like that could have went really badly.

(34:57):
Kids like that like that are closeted, that are in
that sort of that have been publicly humiliated like that,
for you to bail on him, I was like, this
is so funny. I understand why it happens in the
movie version of this story because he has to go
through like the low point where everyone has basically turned
their back on him, But in the content, it just
felt so like too much. Yeah, and and a generally,

(35:19):
like the kids in this movie are generally pretty like
I don't know, it just like seemed out of character
for all. Like it's one thing if they're like, hey,
we're piste off that you did this, but like bailing
on him just seems like right, yeah, I know, it's
a movie. I said. I was worried that Abby was
just going to let him off the hook for like

(35:39):
pimping her out, so like her anger I think was
the most justified. Like I didn't hate that she confronted
him about it, but it was weird that they were
all like and you've been out it and fuck you'll
see you. Maybe never that any of them confronted him.
I just I just don't I don't know the fact
that they completely abandoned him in a time where you
know you're and is like very vulnerable, seems we didn't

(36:03):
even ask how he was doing. They didn't they didn't
even check in with them, like, Hi, we can talk
about like what you've done to us, but like first,
let's confront you on the street in this pack, and
we're not even going to ask one question about the fallout,
like with your family or like how you are where
your head's at. It might have worked a little better
for me if like one friend couldn't let it go

(36:26):
and it seemed more like a personal character, But it
was all of them, and so we're just like, oh,
so they're right, Like it's just it was, yeah, I
don't know totally. So then there's a few scenes where
like Simon confronts Martin tells him to suck off. He
has a scene with his mom where she's like you're
still you and I love you, garnering out and she's

(36:49):
and then the scene with the dad that we already
talked about a little. There's a great scene with Natasha
Rothwell when these two bullies like confront Simon for being
gay and also um Ethan, the kid that's already been out,
and Natasha Rathabel comes up and she's like basically and
they will, I want to make that my ringtone. I

(37:12):
it was really good. And then they all go to
the principal's office and I love that, like even the
gay kids have to like gets into the principal's office
to like hear their apology. It's like we're totally putting
the burden on them despite them being totally not there there.
It's like, I mean, I love that scene between Ethan
and Simon was one of my favorite parts. But I

(37:34):
was like, man, Tony Hale, you really like don't know
what you're doing us. At least it was clear that
he was like that was the wrong thing to do,
because for sure he seems so incompetent in that scene.
But I was happy that they did put Ethan and
Simon together for at least one point, because Simon gives
the moving an opportunity which I think it could have
taken more, but the movie gets a chance to at

(37:55):
least be like yeah, I'm like gay, black and all,
so like not necessarily conforming to gender in the way
that we all dress and everything like that, so it's
crazy hard for me and my family will not accept me.
I'm like yours. So it's like, yeah, I thought it
definitely like started to shed some light on another perspective,

(38:16):
and I thought maybe we could have gone a little
bit further with that um. But it was nice to
at least hear from this kid, and it didn't just
feel like the movie was using the kid as a prop. Definitely,
there was a punch of the man who played Ethan,
who of course is twenty seven years old, did like
a bunch of really good Clark Jones, Clark Moore, Clark

(38:38):
Moore did, he did, He did a bunch of really
good interviews around I think like really took full advantage
of being a part of this movie to like speak
more to that um and said kind of what you
said earlier, mat of like I hope what people take
away from the movie is that even if you're in
a very privileged position, it's still an impossible place to

(38:58):
be in for a lot of people. But he also
he spoke a little bit I just want to share
share a quote. May I sure, may I he did?
He didn't interview with teen Vogue incredible and said quote,
we're used to seeing strong black characters, especially if they're effeminate.
Ethan has some depth added to his character where he's
not just the punchline. He has vulnerabilities just as much

(39:20):
as anybody else, even though he's comedic relief. He's also
a source of inspiration for young people nervous about being
accepted by others. So I wish I mean, it's like
I wish he was a more meaningful part of the plot,
even though I mean they do. He has seen a
bunch of different times, um, but mostly in most of
the scenes he's in, he's being bullied by those two

(39:42):
homophobe kids. It's true. Yeah, I mean, I guess the
best I could say for that is he is always
above it and like always has a funnier, better response
to it. I don't know, I don't know what did
you make of that character. I thought that it was
interesting to way because I didn't know any out gay

(40:02):
kids when I was in high school, so I don't
really know. I didn't have a barometer for how they
get treated. It obviously, was like painful to see the kid,
even though he always had a smart, funny response to it.
And I like that they empowered the kid in that
way and gave him his intelligence and his humor. So
many kids don't have that, And you know, I wondered if, like, um,

(40:23):
that was the representation of the average kid. Like I
think it was a good I think it was. It's
nice to see for gay kids that might be closeted
to watch this movie and see themselves on screen this
way and them to be given this this superpower, which
is his intelligence. But to me, it was like, the
reality is like this kid might be really depressed, and

(40:45):
it seems like, um, it almost seemed like when Simon
turns to Ethan and it's like, my life is over,
it couldn't be worse, etcetera. He almost really believes that
his life is worse than this other kid. And I
don't know, you can't expect too much of this movie
because it is a movie for teens and it is

(41:06):
like a big studio film and it's supposed to be
you know, mainstream, But the reality of being POC and
gay is like really so much different than it is
to be someone like Simon, and then also at the
end of the movie, well, I guess you'll you'll you'll say,
you'll say who Blue is? But Blue is black in

(41:27):
the movie. And also just the reality of like there's
just so many more things that are going to be
reality that they deal with. And I wondered if the
movie wasn't The movie was so blissfully diverse, but with
that kind of diversity comes a whole other series of
things to deal with, definite, And I wonder if the

(41:47):
movie was using diversity in a way that was like, look,
we're a diverse film, and then kind of ignoring a
lot of the realities. You know, a kid, a kid
that's a kid that's like Simon, a white gay kid
who's sixteen, seventeen years old. They might not be at
at the point where like the person reveals themselves and

(42:08):
they're a black kid and they he might be in
the place where he's like, what is my parents going
to think about this? So it kind of just felt
like this whole it almost felt dumbed down in a
way so that it can be woke. So it felt
like it was it felt like it was raising it's
i Q. It feels like it's ignoring or not like
using opportunities to make statements that would have been helpful

(42:31):
to make it glazes stuff over. Yeah, for sure. And
that was like the one the one thought I had
about the Ethan character. And I don't know how spot
on this is, but just the fact that he only
becomes meaningfully involved in the plot to sort of explain
something to Simon, but we don't really get to see
him be involved in the plot in a meaningful way

(42:51):
where he's just like is rightfully so saying like this
is my experience and like you are not the worst
off of everyone, and kind of like all out and
take stock of of what you do have going for you,
because you know, even though it's a difficult experience, you're
you're very lucky. Which is a great scene, and I'm
so glad it's there, but it's it almost feels like

(43:11):
that character is put there and then can't participate in
any way other than to be that example. And so
he's there, is an example, and then isn't really allowed
to participate in the movie, which kind of sucks because
he's a good character and and there's a lot there
that you think, you know, there's so many characters in
this movie that there could have been like real estate

(43:32):
freed up for him, because like what if Simon was
friends with the only out kid at school? Like what
would that be? I don't know, you know. They It's
almost like I almost feel like saying I also want
to see like love Ethan with him. But it's like
you wonder if you wonder if a major studio would
do that, and the answer is not, I probably would not,

(43:55):
at least not today, maybe in five years. I mean,
you're talking about a movie that literally like has Simon
have like a quote unquote gay day dream and it's
him walking jauntily to like I will always know not
those I want to dance with somebody while everyone wears

(44:16):
like a bright colored T shirt and I'm like summer that, yeah,
I thought about that, and he's he's like, um, well,
maybe not this gay. I'm like, dude, this is not gay.
This is colorful. This is not gay, Like gay is
everyone in this scene eating each other's ass? Like you like,
this is not gay? And so I'm kind of thinking, like, wow,

(44:38):
this movie like it's about homosexuality. No, you know what,
it's about being gay? It's not about homosexuality. It's not
about like actually reckoning with your sexuality. It's about being
different socially, and it's about having secrets. That's what it's about.
And so like it doesn't make any effort to pretend

(45:00):
like it's more than that short. You know, it's like PG,
you know, and like I said, you can't expect too
much of it, and like, you know, movies about like
heterosexual teen romance are not about sex, well largely, but um,
it can't succeed on every level that I think we'd
like it to, right, I mean, yeah, it's a it's
a teen movie that adheres to almost every like trope

(45:24):
of the kind of like a teenager with a secret,
which is also why I feel like people should go
easier on it, you know what I mean. It's like like,
so I'm of two minds of it. It's like I
can see everything that you're saying is right. Also the
movie is this like it's not it's it's just not
gonna Maybe it's not gonna make a social comment. Maybe
it is just for more people to see themselves on screen.

(45:46):
And if you are not in that more people, that sucks,
Like I'm sorry, I hope that for everyone to be represented.
I personally hope for everyone who represented it's like Hollywood's issue, right,
And it's not surprising that like for the baseline of
like the first like wide released movie of this kind,
for Hollywood to play it safe and be like, well,

(46:08):
if we're going to do this and take this quote
unquote risk, then he'd better be like white hot from money,
and like that does make sense in terms of being
the baseline of where I mean, Hollywood feels comfortable gambling.
That's not right and that's hitty and bad and I
want you know, everyone wants it a love ethan and like,
but it it doesn't make sense to me that this

(46:31):
is the first like quote unquote gamble that they would take.
It makes sense to me on paper, you know what
I mean. I wish that Hollywood would realize that actually
when people most see themselves is when the stories are
the most specific. Yeah, Like, for example, something that's a phenomenon,
I don't know if it was a box office phenomenon,
but it's a movie that everyone knows is precious. You

(46:53):
don't get more specific than that. Like, it's just it's
a very specific story of trauma and struggle, but it
really connected with a ton of people on many levels
because it was bold enough to be that specific. So
by kind of washing this story out and not allowing

(47:14):
the intelligent conversations that would happen in real life to happen,
I wonder if it actually could have made more money,
if if maybe people would have been a little bit
more passionate about it, because right now, the conversation we're
largely having about the movie is it's like it was good.
It could have been better if it felt more real,
you know what I mean, which is like, you wonder

(47:35):
how necessary that is? Sure, we need to take another
quick break, but we will be right back. Um, I'll
just finish up the recap because is I like, I'm
enjoying this break in format? Yeah? Yeah, we're like, you know,
it's discussion integrated within the recap, but its spread. We've

(48:04):
said it Toive. How'sn't it okay? So Simon posts on
the blog after some of the you know, intensity at
the school has has died down a bit. Um He
posts on Creek's secrets and he says, I love Blue,
whoever you are, I want to meet you. Here's where

(48:24):
I'm going to be after this. After Cabaret hope to
see you there because I deserve a love story and
you deserve a love story, and we all deserve love.
He makes up with his friends. They all go to
the school carnival together. He rides the ferris wheel waiting
for Blue to show up. For a while, it seems
like he's not going to even Martin. He offers his

(48:50):
guilt four dollars. He says, I love you. It's me,
and then we're all in an audience like if it's him,
I'm going to and then it's not him, and it's
not Yeah, and he gives the ferris wheel guy. Imagine
if it was the ferris wheel guy. It's like, I'm
mind if I said, he gives him like a couple

(49:10):
of dollars to keep it going for one last time,
and then who shows up? And who shows up? But
I enjoyed that twist. I was. I was really happy
it was him. Yeah, I liked he was my favorite
candidate the same Yeah, And they kiss and he says,

(49:31):
are you disappointed it to me? And I was like
that's such a thing too, was like, you probably the
kid was probably nervous because what if you can care?
And he's like, oh god, never mind. Yeah, it's a
real Martin Nabby situation. Right, It's worth it for me
because you get that big moment of everyone cheering um
while there is a queer kiss happening on screen which

(49:53):
never happens. But just like logistically, I'm like, oh, it's
such a big ask to be like, hey, do you
want to come out the entire student body, like who
are all going to be gathered? Like that is so
much pressure and Simon has just gone through this whole
thing where he was put under too much pressure to
come out publicly. And I was like, I feel like
you kind of I don't know. I loved it, Yeah,

(50:15):
I loved it because it was like I think that
it was obviously a message. It's like I'm willing to
be this brave. So I think like his bravery made
made him want to be brave, you know what I mean. Well, yeah,
they talk about that, you know what I mean. Like
I kind of loved it and I kind of got it.
I could see that really happening in real life, like
if one kid was if I thought of this happening,
I was like that I can see being a reality.

(50:38):
Like I was wondering like if I'm in high school,
and if I was doing this and somebody was like,
I'm actually gonna do this, like be here, maybe I would,
Maybe I would. I would love for that. I just
was I felt I felt concerned for Blue. I hope
Blue is cool with this. But they did talk about
making each other brave. They inspired each other, so that

(50:59):
does make sense. I just got nervous for him when
that was a big as it's a big ask. But
they also kept expressing major hesitancy of wanting the world
to know his identity and everything. Question. Do you think
that they continued on into college or is this a
beautiful flash in the pan from senior year. I think
that they had a really nice rest of the senior year,

(51:22):
tried to be a long distance for a short time,
maybe even went too long, like six to eight months,
and then it got just too hard at college where
there's just so many other gay, beautiful dudes. But they
they'll always tell each other in high regard and guess what,
who knows, maybe they'll even maybe it's not over, maybe
down the road, but they've got more growing to do.

(51:42):
I don't think it's one and done for these boys,
because Simon says he's going to college in Los Angeles
ever heard of it? I know where are you going?
I bet? And you know, because like he's going to
a nice college. He's probably going to US. And he
does not have student loan debt that simon. I'll tell
you one thing. It doesn't. He's able to go to

(52:02):
West Hollywood guildfree ins. He's going to Hamburger, Mary's at Chapel.
He is fucking you know, actually works at pump No way,
of course, of course. Anyway, So that's the story of

(52:25):
the movie. And we covered so much, covered a lot already.
It's a good, great soundtrack to We didn't say that
the music is really good. A lot of bleachers. There's
a lot I like about this movie, and I would
like to hear your opinions, our listeners opinions on this.

(52:47):
And we talked a little bit about how the movie
handles race and kind of glosses over things that like
a young queer person of color would have to deal
with it. It introduced is all these characters and then
kind of glasses over the intricacies of that situation. However,
it felt to me the movie normalizes people being attracted

(53:12):
to people of different races and ethnic backgrounds without needing
to draw a lot of attention to the fact that
they were attracted, except for that one weird moment where
Simon is like fumbling with his words. That was the
one moment where there is any attention drawn to it.
They're at the Halloween party and he is still trying

(53:33):
to pass this straight and he's talking to his friend Nick,
and Nick's like, Oh, it would be so hot, and
Simon's like, yeah, she's hot, but she's not really my type,
not because she's black. I love black women, but I
don't have a thing for black women. I just love
all women. So he's like, it's like a bad joke.
It seems like a bad attempt at humor, Like, oh,

(53:56):
I'm not fetishiz right, but also not not because it's needless. Yeh, needless.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say
that it kind of worked for me because he's in
a stressful situation where he's like trying to pass so
I kind of got that he was like stumbling over
his Yeah, and a lot is that Abby's expense, And

(54:23):
it's it's tricky because it's like you know that ultimately
this is Martin's fault for being the worst most boat
kid of all time. Like he's just like a bore
at poster come to life. But but it's like, you know,
Simon does sell Abby up the river for almost I
mean for what we have to think is the majority

(54:43):
of their friendship because I haven't even known each other
this lot. Like it's just I mean, I'm glad that
she stands up to him, she of all people, should have,
but I don't know, yeah, she was the only one
who I felt like, you got a real bone to
pick with him here, Yeah, you know Nick that was
just like a like cock block at best, Like Nick

(55:05):
was not greatly Like there was no reason for Nick
to turn his back on his lifelong best friend out
of nowhere. Nor was there for Leah really. I mean,
although it's like, okay, she's disappointed, but again it's like
she was at best inconvenience for he said like the
space of a week. It must be hard to hear
that the kid that you're in love with not only

(55:26):
doesn't like you, but like it's you know, different than
you've ever thought. And then there's got to be a
lot of emotions that go through your mind there. But
but it's not abandonment. This is a critical time, especially
with what yeah, yeah, that could be and and they do.
I like that she is the first to forgive him
at least, and it makes sense to me that she

(55:47):
would be the first person to be like, no, I
love you, accept you and all that, because he's like
chasing her when she's like walking her dog or something,
which is I don't know. I like that scene, the
reconciliations to me, at least, compared to the teen high
school movies that were a thing when I was coming
of age of like all those like late nineties like

(56:10):
She's All that, Ten Things I Hate About You, Those
were like the things I was watching, And none of
those felt like real high school experiences or like anything
that anyone was dealing with or going through because they
were all based on these like crazy bets that get
way out of hand and it I never saw anything
like that in my high school experience. This movie felt

(56:33):
way more real of a depiction of the high school
experience than those. At least I bought it as a
high school movie. Even though the kids were looking what
they looked like, I bought it. I mean, it's like
where everyone's gonna be five, which is almost always going
to be true. It felt pretty I mean I also,
it's like none of us have been in high school
for a while, so I'm like, I don't know if

(56:54):
this is what high school looks like. Like they had
phones seems realistic to me, Like that was my bar
for like does this make sense? I'm like, yeah, everyone's
got fun, so clearly it's a high school. Another moment
I liked, and I think this is part of why
I think this movie feels a lot more realistic than
a lot of it's like Teen Predecessors, is that the

(57:16):
big romantic gesture that Martin tries to do is like
very similar to the thing that we see in like
Ten Things. Yeah, he should not of dancing across the
bleachers shouldn't work in that movie, though, does work to
win that character back over. So I like that we
see it not working. I'm imposing I'm imposing a moratorium

(57:40):
on big gestures. They're not done forever, but I just
need I just need a break. Sure, they're very aggressive,
they're big, Yeah they're huge. But I hate about them
is they're too big, and I crumble under pressure daily,
so it's putting a lot of pressure on the subject.
It's crazy. It's like because then it's like you could

(58:04):
do the most, like while you're performing this big thing
in the football game, and then literally all people will
remember is what the other person did to respond to him.
That's what it's all out to. So it's really like
you're defining their legacy in this moment. And I thought
it was great that Abby was honest with him without
you know, being like, you know, which would have been

(58:28):
a worst choice for that. It's so that whole thing
made me think, and I'm like, this is this is
probably about gender in some way where I've had multiple
conversations with like my friends from high school or my
friends from when I was younger that like, if something
like that ever happened, or if someone ever asked you
to marry them at a sports game, that we would
say yes so as not to humiliate them and then

(58:49):
later tell them, actually, I can't do that. That's what
I was protective. Yeah, I mean that was like, I
don't know why I've had this. Probably every time I
see a gesture like this, or you're out of sports
game and it happened, You're like, even if I knew
the answer is no, I would say yes to protect
his feelings and then later be like, don't do big gestures. Literally,
what would actually happen if this were to happen in

(59:10):
high school is everyone in there would be losing their
ship laughing, and then the girl would probably be like,
oh my god, stop and she probably would like run out,
like at least this is the way it would happen
in my high school, so you would run away. But
my assessment of this moment is kids are not this mature,
Like she's not just going to measurably sit there and
be like, I'm so sorry, but I just don't think

(59:32):
of you like this, but I would like to be friends.
Like no, no one's doing And that's the moment everyone's like,
she's twenty seven, Oh my god, why is she here?
I don't know. I feel like teens this day might
might have done that. I don't know. It is okay
for me. I thought it was a good aspirational scene
of like, okay, best case scenario for everyone involved. That

(59:53):
is a cool way to handle it. But they sort
of lightly touch on how Martin becomes target of bullying
after that, and there's just like a bunch of shitty
memes about like shut down or like whatever. But I
think I think realistically Abby would also be the target
of some harassment based on that of like you fucking

(01:00:14):
humiliated him, which is I think we're that whole mentality
of like I would say yes even if that's not
how I felt comes from of like you shouldn't humiliate
someone in public, even if they're putting you on the
spot by Yeah. Here's a few other scenes that I
really liked the hetero coming out montage where Simon's talking

(01:00:35):
about like why is the onus on queer people to
have to come out? Like why can't straight people like
you know this unfair societal expectation that's set up in
some great parent acting in that in that a little bit,
and then we already touched on this a little bit,
but the scene where miss Albright is like yelling at
the homophobic bully kids, that just energized to me for

(01:00:59):
that was that was necessary. We love that character. And
then she went all the way and yes, into infamy.
And then I also really liked the scene where Simon
yells at Martin for outing him because he's saying stuff
like you took everything away from me in terms of
like I get to Yeah, it's like I get to

(01:01:22):
this should have been on my terms, how I do it,
when I do it, to whom I do it, etcetera,
And you took that away from me. And Martin, I
mean that character is really well written. I think we
all hate him rightfully so, but but I was just like,
oh my god, he's going to log into the in
cell board and then we're fucking screwed. Martin is the

(01:01:47):
type in cells have bora posters. It's proof, It's just
proof positive. I also like a large part of the
movie is seeing a lot of like male vulnerable. Okay,
so here's the thing. There's there's not that much to
talk about in terms of the representation of women in
this movie, which makes sense because it's a movie about

(01:02:09):
a gay it's not called Love Alexis Rebecca Simon, So
there's not a whole lot for us to talk about
in those terms. But the things that I think are
worth talking about are like the idea of masculinity, and

(01:02:31):
you know it does right, I am not sure. Yeah,
it's so weird because I'm so taken in by this
movie that I wasn't paying as close attention that they
should have it did call attention to the fact, I'm like,
why aren't Leah and Abbey remotely friends for people who
seem to be together of the time, they don't speak,

(01:02:52):
we don't know. That was like one thing that bothered
me about Abby's character in the way it was written
was that as much as we know she's like, well rounded,
she's a great person and also hot, she they like
they do sort of like guys gal her a little
bit because she has no female friends that we see.
Even though she's around, She and Lea around or anything,

(01:03:13):
hardly see them interact. Yes, yeah, which I know is like,
I mean, that's not going to happen in this movie.
It's not their movie. But I mean it was just
weird a little bit more of them interacting. Not the
worst thing to ever happen, but real quick about like
male vulnerability that we see which we often don't see

(01:03:35):
in most movies. Well, first of all, like Simon, the
whole story revolves around him not being secure enough in
his sexual identity to come out. We see like Nick
being insecure about his like sexual inexperience. He's like, you know,
I've only had sex with one time, right, Things were

(01:03:55):
slipper United didn't put my dick in the right place,
and I'm insecure, but it was cute. I really liked that.
And then here's something that rubbed me the wrong way
a little bit where Martin, as he's seeking help from Simon,
say something like, I don't want your help changing me.
I want your help getting Abby to like me for me,
which I think is an important thing to happen, but

(01:04:19):
I hate that it comes from this character who were
meant to hate and who is wrong every other time
in the movie. I wish we had seen It's almost
like the movie didn't decide if who that kid really was,
Like was he just annoying and like he's a good
person at heart but he's annoying, or is he like

(01:04:40):
chaotic evil He's like a vicious blackmailer who is blackmailing
and you're supposed to feel bad for him. At certain
points where it does feel a little I don't know
this whole movie, and it's like it is what it is,
kind of like what you're saying, but there are elements
of it. I'm like, this is very focused groups to
the point where I'm like, I'm not sure exactly who
you're supposed to be that's what it is. It just
feels like it was trying to be too many things

(01:05:02):
for two different people, and it's like, I don't know,
maybe the villain could have just been a villain, Like
that's fine, he's irridamable, great, but like, don't make him
this sympathetic, like, oh, he didn't mean to out you
and funk your life up. It's like, No, the whole
four dollars thing at the end, I'm like, that's not
a redemption. He doesn't need sounds horrible, Like if you

(01:05:25):
want to make arrangements for Butt six, you know emails
like yeah, God, does anyone have any other thoughts about
the movie? I would say that I'm going to shout
out the soundtrack again. The sounds gave me everything I love.
It's like late eighties early nineties throwbacks down. I love
that song wild Heart. I love that song Strawberries and
Cigarettes that Troy Sevan does on the soundtrack. It's really good.

(01:05:49):
It's very evocative. It seems like they're almost like referencing
John Hughes. But yeah, by doing that a brave observation
by me, Jamie that I'm sure. And it was one
of those movies where it was like maybe made maybe
twice as good of a movie as that actually is.
With the music. Oh yeah, I thought it actually like
really served like an atmospheric purpose, which is what it

(01:06:12):
should do. Wow. I think Alfred Willina could have played Simon. Sure, Honestly,
I think they could really strategy make a sixteen year
old man play a queer teenager. Now that his progress,
it's so funny to even think about Simon as being
queer because he's just so straight the whole time. Well okay,
stylized completely straight. That is one thing I wanted to

(01:06:34):
touch on because we talked a little bit about this.
Another criticism around this, Yeah, well he's just like, you know,
he's the definition of walking the world and with complete privilege.
I mean, he doesn't even need to code switch. That's
just who is who he is, like to play Devil's advocate.
And again I'm coming from a place of not being

(01:06:56):
a gay man. Uh, it needed to be said, Caitlin.
I know that people have been wondering that I've been
am I blue? Was I blue? I don't know? Maybe
I anyway, So we talked a little bit about this
on their recent DEBS episode. But in that episode, I
appreciated that because any time like a lesbian is portrayed

(01:07:21):
in a mainstream movie, usually it is someone who presents
as very butch. You know, they're they're made to adhere
to these like rigid stereotypes. And similarly, when gay men
are portrayed in mainstream movies, they're usually presented in such
a way that they're very flamboyant, because I think Hollywood's like, well,

(01:07:43):
how will anyone know they're gay unless we make them
so flamboyant. Here's what I would say about it. It's like,
you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.
Because if you depict the kid as being more gay
acting quote unquote right, then you get a bunch of
people that are like, well, there we are again depicted
as being this way. And then if you depict the

(01:08:06):
kids being very straight acting, especially when he's played by
a straight actor in real life, you get this thing
of like that feels like a raiser. But there are
tons of gay men that act like simon, lots of
gay men I wore masculine. It's hard to find a balance,
and I think it speaks to it speaks less to
what these individual films are doing, and more to the

(01:08:26):
fact that there just isn't and hasn't ever been enough
representation period because every single time one character comes out,
we put all the weight in the world on it. Like,
for example, when I was growing up and there was
Will and Grace, it was like, are you a Will
or a Jack? And we didn't know what it was
like to be anything else, So it was either you

(01:08:47):
are really straight, acting to where you would never know
and you even even the people that you date are
like really even more straight acting like cops. I don't
know if you remember Will's boyfriend played by Bobby kind
of Ali, who was like this like super butch cop
or your Jack, who essentially is a like a joke,

(01:09:08):
you know what I mean, Like he was abroad sweeping stereotype.
So I think as a result of that, it's hard
to gauge like whether or not this movie made a
mistake or not, because like there just isn't enough representation,
and you can't say that people aren't out there and
are gay and they act like that, because they do.

(01:09:29):
There's a whole spectrum as it turns out. I don't know,
I think, like this is weird to say, but like
as someone who sort of identifies as being somewhere in
the middle. When I want to turn it on, I
can be very flamboyant, and then the way I'm speaking
to you guys right now, you know, I don't know
if someone would quote unquote no, it's just hard because
like we can't see ourselves. All we see are like

(01:09:52):
each other, and then depictions of ourselves in media, and
we're just not up there that much. So I think,
like I don't necessarily have too much of a problem
with with this particular movie in that regard. Maybe maybe
maybe there's something to the fact that they have a
straight actor playing him. Yes, which is like a case
by case it always feels tough. Yeah, I was gonna

(01:10:13):
ask how you felt about well, because I'll say this, like,
for example, for the auditions that I go on, it's
hard because a lot of the characters are just like stereotypes,
like and you can feel them trying on the page
to not make it like that, like in the breakdown,
it won't be like gay and he knows it. You know,
he wears a fucking crazy scarf. He loves to wave

(01:10:34):
his finger. It's not like that. But it's like whenever
anyone writes girl comma in any line, it's like, Okay,
you try too hard, you know what I mean. But
it's at least interesting and at least good to see
them trying. But I don't think we're ever going to
get to the point where we're where we're not precious
about each and every character depiction up there until we

(01:10:55):
see more. And unfortunately, like I'm not being offered to
play a lot of straight parts, and I don't know
a lot of gay actors that are out there openly
gay who are just routinely booking straight roles. So when
it feels like the vice versa is true, often it's
frustrating because there's tons of gay actors out there that

(01:11:16):
are just as talented as these straight guys. And yet
Heath Ledger and Jake Jillen Hall, allegedly straight actors um
performing and broke Back Mountain like the seminal gay romance
of our time, and then to see that continue to
do that as an eighteen and like Love Simon is
like the gay mainstream movie and Nick Robinson is playing

(01:11:38):
it and he's straight. I'm not saying they all didn't
do a great job. It's just about representation. Yeah, and
and the fact that I mean this, I believe that
this was adapted by and originally written by, like it
was written by top to bottom straight people. Yeah, the
director Greg Berlante is gay, so there's that. But like
you said with the focus group comment, you know this

(01:12:00):
was filtered through a straight line that this is essentially
the Abbey of like of like you know, it's like
a gay thing for straight people. Um, so it just
feels like that's even named abbey. I was surprised to
learn the novel that this movie is based on was
written by a woman I thought for sure a gay man,

(01:12:24):
but it was written by a straight lady, which is like, yeah,
I mean with with stories like that, it's so hard
to find a story, and I think it does speak
to like the amount of pressure that is put on
queer stories because there's just not enough of them. But
it's like, I feel like you can always trace it
back to a pretty heteronormative source, which is just when

(01:12:46):
you actually lived that experience. Okay, So I really very
closely almost went through this exact experience, like I wasn't
out it in high school. But like the way that
he goes about his life the interest he like claims
to have, Like I didn't not see myself in it,
and so that's why I was a little bit sensitive
to the criticism. But yet now having like time with

(01:13:07):
the movie, I can see the criticism you wish because
it really got it, really was there. You wish it
had really gotten it, you know what I mean. And
I do think with like maybe three or four more
like gay creatives in high positions there, or like maybe
even a gay actor, like just a suggestion could have
been made of like I feel like he's too upset here,

(01:13:29):
or he's not upset enough here, you know what I mean.
Like there was some specific emotional movement moments where I
was like watching him act the situation and I was like,
it's so specifically something else, you know what I mean,
just as an actor watching and I was like, this
is all on the page, but you're not getting it
right now, or just like or like you're getting it

(01:13:51):
right now, but the script isn't allowing you to say
what it really is. Like there was a couple of
times where it all came together, like him saying like
this was my thing to do and you took that
from me. That's really good, you know what I mean.
That was like right there, But then there was like
moments like with the dad and the mom where I
just felt like more emotional response was needed, or just

(01:14:12):
like little tiny things like where it just didn't feel
measured in the right way, where I was like, chemically,
I think that this actor just maybe is just not
capable of acting this scenario. But I found him very
appealing overall. So focus group wise, for everyone, the movie
works for me who went to the specific experience and

(01:14:32):
it is a specific experience and should be treated as such.
I could just see the little things that weren't right,
So so it's like, yes, I'm I happy the movie exists.
Is it like a fucking Grand Slam home run to me? No,
because it wasn't as specific as it should have been,
which is the point I made before about like that's
when you really get at the heart of these things
and move people, is when you actually get specific. Because

(01:14:55):
I was more moved by Precious than I was by
Love Simon, and I didn't I I'm not. I didn't
go through that, you know what I mean. But I
can appreciate the specificity and the attention to detail that
goes into something like that, whereas this was like, Okay,
you made you made a movie that tried to make
a lot of money and make straight people happy and
make them feel good for seeing it, which I am

(01:15:16):
guilty of, but but you should feel like that. It
should make people feel good. Yeah, I mean, it's there's
so many double I don't know. Yeah, with with this, yeah,
it's a tough one. And it all comes down to,
like I said before, they're just not being enough. So
this is the first one, and I'm happy it was
the first one, but because you know what, you get

(01:15:37):
into like a lot of the nitty gritty about like
what actually goes down in Ethan Ethan's life, and then
it is a sad movie, you know what I mean.
But I do think like this movie opens the door
up to this conversation, and therefore, because this conversation exists,
that movie is more likely to be seen. And I
do think our I should be open to the reality
of what it's like to be a queer person of color.

(01:15:57):
I don't think it is like and so you know,
it's even been eye opening for me in the last
few years, Like in my late twenties, I'm much much
closer with my close friends that are gay and also
people of color, and it's just like, you know, the
sexual realities of that, the romantic realities of that, the
social realities of that, the the realities of that in

(01:16:18):
terms of online dating, in terms of useach of the apps,
it's like very dark and I we haven't even touched
on it. My best friend is a gay man. Brag
is no, he just bought a house. He purchased with

(01:16:39):
the house um. But when he was single and on Grinder,
he would show me all these profiles of white guys
being like no blacks, no fats, no Asians, is the
popular mask only, like all that kind of stuff, And
I was like, wow, there's still a lot of discrimination

(01:17:01):
within a community that is marginalized and being repressed. So
that that's the disease amongst especially white gaze is you know,
they have this narrative in their heads. We have this
narrative in our heads of we've been oppressed. We think
it might be as painful or equal to anyone else

(01:17:24):
who's been oppressed. And then when we do overcome that
quote unquote oppression um, which most of us do in
our teens or early twenties, we then feel entitled to saying, well,
I've been through enough, now I'm allowed to have my
quote unquote preferences. And so a lot of people aren't

(01:17:45):
ready to reckon with the fact that, like they have
racism in them just because you've been oppressed in terms
of a society like that that you're a sexual minority
or your your sexual preferences are keep you in the minority.
Like they think the they're like better than racism, they
think that they're immune to it. Yeah, it festers, and

(01:18:07):
of course, I mean we like with white feminism, you
know what I mean, Like it just doesn't include everyone.
And so then you're on these apps and you think
to yourself, like we should be the last people where
this is like thriving. But like you can walk in
the streets and not hear something racist. If you go
on these apps, you will see something racist, you will,

(01:18:31):
I mean. And then there's all the like transphobia within
the queer community. You know, there's all kinds of like
you know, discrimination within these communities. And it feels like
we're making strides, feels like things are getting a little better.
But and I think that the movie Existing is a
good thing because I think ultimately like, and I know

(01:18:53):
that's not even what we're debating, but um, like, it
has been a debate, like amongst gay friends of mine
who really don't like the movie, because I think there's
a mentality that this movie like purports to represent more
people than it does, and I don't think that's true.
I think that this movie is telling a story about
a kid coming to terms with the sexuality. Um But,

(01:19:16):
like I said, because it's the only one, we put
all this weight on it. And I think that because
this movie exists, we're able to have these conversations about
what it gets right about what it doesn't. And that's
film criticism, which is for many people what advances the
cinematic form anyway. So I've seen the conversation truly, especially
in this room. Yes we're such heroes, but it's it's

(01:19:42):
been very interesting to see the conversation about this movie.
Like I had. I talked with someone one time I
really didn't like this criticism of it, but he said
that he felt that the Natasha Rothwell character was a
magical Negro and I was like, that's a really interesting,
weird to say, and he was like, the movie uses
her to like save the day and it's not fair.

(01:20:05):
And I was like, yeah, but what are you saying,
like if that part was played by Chelsea Handler? Would
would would it make it like you could not change
the script, and would it make the movie stronger? And
so now, and that's when I think there was a
real fever picture on this movie where in the gay
community conversations like this we're happening, that we're truly picking
it apart bit by bit, And I think that is

(01:20:28):
not helpful, you know what I mean? Because I think
that's Hasha Rothwell is amazing in the movie, and I'm
sure she feels fine being in it. I'm sure she
doesn't feel utilized in that way. We just want her
to get paid as much as humanly possible. I was
just like, I was just like, it's odd to me
to like use that criticism against this movie, but that's
what was happening, and that's what happens. I think when
there's just not enough representation, that's all there to talk about,

(01:20:51):
then we'll talk about it. I mean, the thesis of
this discussion and our whole podcast is we need more
and better representation. We okay, let's okay, bachtel test. I
think there are a few scenes that come close. I

(01:21:12):
tried to document all of them, but I think I
might have missed some. But like, there's a scene where
the mom is like, let's watch the affair, and then
Simon says, we can't watch the affair as a family,
and the mom says why not, and then the sister
chimes in, Norah, we know her name, she says, because
it's all about sex, and then mom says, god forbid.
We see people make love. So it's like a conversation

(01:21:33):
where men are present and then also contributing to the conversation.
But there's like a two line exchange where just women
are tugging yeah, and they need to be alone, not
nerve version of it. All these different caveats, I feel
like maybe yeah, I feel I'm I'm not so quick
to say this one counts. And it's also based on yeah,

(01:21:55):
it's also based on our response Simon has to it
and they're talking about head roast sex, right, so probably not.
There is a scene where Abby says I just found
a press on nail in my salad, and then Abby
and Leah at the same time say Debbie. They're accusing
Debbie of her nails. I'm so sick of these passes.

(01:22:20):
I think I don't know how to just be like,
who is that fucking judge who was like, I can't
define porn, but I know it when I see it.
That's how I feel about the Betel Test at this point.
I'm like, I'm no more of these bullshit passes. Yeah,
and then there is a scene where Leah says, thanks
for letting me stay over. Simon's mom says, you've been

(01:22:40):
staying over for ten years. You don't have to thank us,
and then Leah says, oh, yeah, that's so that as
close as it comes insightful, know, I know, I know,
I'm surprised women don't interact more in this. I don't
know if I'm surprised. I guess based on how many
female characters there are, we would have a few more
interactions betwe mean women, but we only have like these

(01:23:04):
and then a couple that don't pass the test. And
I guess that's not any objective of the movie. But
there are always like opportunities to make this, and I
feel like Leah and Abbey are the biggest missed opportunity there.
They're around each other the whole time. Yeah, and friends
and allegedly. And also I'm realizing right now that the
mom and Leah discussing her staying over that can't pass

(01:23:27):
the Bechtel test because they're talking about the house and
that house identifies as a male. I think it's very big.
It's making itself known, and it's like taking up a
lot of up a lot of space. Like and also
the subtext is like, thanks for letting me stay over
with Simon, which also why was that allowed? I'm like,
I wish my mom when I was seventeen playing while

(01:23:48):
they were in that room. Is there a boat in
the body? I'm on a week for I was like, fine,
want to let me know. I was like, this is
like a sex see adults romantic song. Very the whole
film was horny, and I like that about it. Oh yes,
I'm fully I think it would have may be more

(01:24:08):
uncomfortable if the actors were underage, but they were so
clearly forty years old. I'm like, this is great. There, No,
the younger sister was older than they actually were, like
drama school together. Yeah, she she's in the affair Like
that was an inside joke. Oh gosh, okay, so let's

(01:24:33):
write the movie on our nipple scale zero to five
nipples based on its portrayal of women. Oh, that's true,
this is true. It's not fair for this right because
I will. I would give it a five though, would you? Yeah,
because I think that the female characters that presents are
all three dimensional, I would agree with that, I do,
you know what I mean? They're not the focus. They're

(01:24:54):
not driving the story, or at least if they are,
it's passively because it's Martin like black Aileen Simon because
he wants to funck Abby. So they're not necessarily very
active characters. But the way they're written, the way they're presented,
I do feel like they're dynamic, interesting, multidimensional characters. Yeah.

(01:25:14):
They in terms of just being in a script and
being supporting characters. They're written well and I helped that
the story. And they're not functional in a way that
it feels like we're losing their integrity as characters, you
know what I mean. The mom is like progressive and
lovely and a good mom, you know, but she's also
interested in other things besides being a mom, which is

(01:25:36):
something we don't see in a lot of these movies.
And it's so rare that we know what the mom's
job is, and we don't know what the dad's job is.
That never happens, and it seems like, I mean, based
on that unless it was like a cut scene, it
seems like she's the breadwinner of the family, which is cool.
And also, you know the character of Abby like she
does she stays true to herself the whole time, Like
she doesn't just allow herself to be talked about or

(01:25:58):
like dealt if by the men. She is truthful to herself.
You know, Leah the character, she says what she feels
and it's well performed and you get the sense that
she'll go on to be a dynamic person. Yeah, there
there was I the word I think about. I mean,
it's like Anne, it's kind of rare that you know

(01:26:19):
Simon's two female friends better than you know Nick. I
know almost nothing about Nick. He plays soccer, he had
sex ones, like that's all we know about him. Really, um,
where you do have like full scenes where I appreciated
the extra work going into Abby's character of like, Okay,
she's new, she's from a lower class background. We know
she has like her dad is an alcohol like these

(01:26:40):
are all things I think fifteen years ago we would
never find out about those characters. And the same with Leah,
of you know, I mean, I can strongly identify with
her being the long suffering, being in love with her
gay best friend and just being like no, but like
it's played responsibly. I'm glad that. I mean. The only
thing that made me feel weird is Leah turning her
back on Simon in his moment of utmost need. That

(01:27:05):
was very put off by. But I'm glad that Abby.
I mean, Abby I think is like the best female
character in the story because she she is always like
almost to a point where it's unrealistic for a teenager
to be so like mature and always knows the right
thing to do. Um. But it's I mean, it's like
if we're making a movie to set an example for teenagers,

(01:27:26):
which in theory this movie would be, then she's great
and I think it works works well, you know, and
and good for the little girl. She got a queens
and art. Yeah, incredible. I hope she gets better at cooking,
because women be cooking women. But to me that there's
enough of like yeah, yeah, I I think I'm going
to give it. I'm not prepared to give it a five.

(01:27:49):
I think I'm going to give it maybe a three
and a half because you, well, we we should, we
should ask that question more. Yeah, we'll be because we
in our ratings we also take into account like the
representation of people of color, of queer people, of other

(01:28:09):
marginalized groups of which we almost never see on screen.
But because as we've talked about, like there's an introduction
of at least two queer people who are also people
of color, and the movie glossing over their experience, their
specific experience, I feel like that could have been I mean,

(01:28:29):
the movie probably should have been like Love Bram or
Love Ethan, Like I mean, I think maybe we'll get
there someday, but get that, you know what I mean, Like,
so it will get that we're slowly progressing is a
people in a culture and in the film industry. But um,

(01:28:52):
and then, I don't know, this is tricky just because
like women aren't the focus. It's a tricky movie too.
But if you're going to have a movie that where
women aren't the focus, great that it's a queer male
love story, Like that's what that best I could hope for.
I think I'm going to go for on it. But
I mean the only it's weird though, because it's like
my My only criticism of the female characters is I

(01:29:14):
feel the same way about the male characters is that
they just feel a little bit uncanny Valley overly workshopped
in certain places. But I mean, it's again, it's just
like it's a movie for young people, and so I
think it can be almost dangerous to like show a
young female character being completely off the rails if there's

(01:29:34):
not the real estate in that movie to address it.
So I don't know, I thought, I thought that the
women we see are great. Yeah, well, Matt, thank you
so thank you so much for guys for having brilliant
You know, we lifted the band for good reason, but
it's back on. But Aristotle still shout out to Aristotle,

(01:30:03):
shout out. What would you like to plug? Where can
people find you online? You guys can follow me at
Matt Rogers though it's Matt Rogers th h O. Or
you can listen or and in addition to that, you
can listen to my podcast Last Culture Asta with Bowen
Yang where we discuss pop culture and wow, I've heard

(01:30:26):
of it, talk about it. It's one of my favorites.
Thank you. You can follow us at pectel cast on
the platforms, all the platforms. You can join our Patreon
five bucks a month to extra episodes a month. Kind
of incredible. You're gonna want to be a matron of
our matriarch, going to want to join the matriarchy? Uh?

(01:30:48):
And then yeah, our merchanes on t public and you
know review us on the tunes. Oh yeah, I love
our reviews and they're just like, like, I get it,
I'm stupid. It always makes me feel so bad. Oh,
it's cutting reading. I just on the way here. I
read a bunch. I was a guest on another podcast

(01:31:09):
and I read the reviews and it was like, oh
my god, people hate me so much. Caitlin has great
self control with that kind of stuff. I have no
self control. I read everything and I feel I'm addicted
to feeling horrible. We should all be more like setting
a great example. Look, I teach classes on how to
be me. Yeah, thank you again so much for being here, Matt,

(01:31:31):
and thank thanks for listening. And we'll be here next week. Bye.

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