Moulin Rouge with Daniel O'Brien

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(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the beck Dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef
in best start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hi,
and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante,
my name is Jamie Laftas, and we are the hosts

(00:21):
of the Bechtel Cast. Yeah, okay, okay, bye. No. I
am excited for today. It's just I'm still getting used
to us being in a different space. I think that's
part of what it is. Right, We're in transition, right now,
We're in transition. It's like it's just the thing is,
we're in a space that I would argue is far
less oppressive and well ventilated, and but it's somehow making

(00:44):
me nervous. I like being here because my good friend
Sammy is recording for us today. Yes, Hi, Hi, Fammy,
say so. The Bechtel Cast is inspired by the Bechdel Test,
and it requires that a move. We has two female
characters who have names, who speak to each other and
cannot be talking about a man. Right. Not only do

(01:07):
we talk about whether or not a movie passes the
backdel test. We also talk about all kinds of ship
regarding the portrayal of women in movies. We use it
as a yardstick to begin a larger I feel like
we're both were in a new space. We were sitting
like kind of well, let's introduce our guests. I feel

(01:30):
like that will really, you know, equalize things. I'm ready.
He okay, he has a real intro too, But we
need to say our guests did bring everyone but himself
micsard lamon, which is truly the most generousing anyone can do.
I have yet to open mind, So just give me one.
Can you bring the hits up listeners live for the hiss.

(01:56):
Here's the thing. I get emails every day about the
hiss of the Mike's hard and it's stop. It's nice
and we like it. I mean, thank you anyway. Our
guest um he is a very funny fellow and he
is the author of How to Fight Presidents. Dan O'Brien, Hi,
thank you so much for having me. Thanks for being here.

(02:19):
I really hope I'm not like the weird element that
changes your energy. No, it's for sure our fault. We
shouldn't be blaming ourselves so much though we're strong, smart women.
This is something I come up against again and again
where it's just like, Okay, I can be a feminist
and also I hate myself as an individual. And it's

(02:42):
confusing sometimes because you're like, do I hate women? No,
I just hate me and that's okay, Jamie, I want
you to love yourself. Well that's like a whole other podcast.
Sorry anyway, So, Dan, you brought us the movie Mulin
Rouge I did. Yeah, I'm so I didn't tell us.
So what's your history with this movie? Is there any

(03:02):
particular reason you chose this one? I knew I wanted
something musical because I'm a music theater kid, uh and
just wanted to play in that world. And like, it's
really hard to find a group of people that are
willing to talk to me about musicals. Oh my god,
I've been waiting. So wait, what kind of musical? Like
high school? Or did you did you bring it into college?

(03:24):
Did you bring it after college? Because that's a move. Oh,
it started way early. I started from Jersey originally, and
we went to I saw my first Broadway show probably
when I was in sixth grade, and then I started
doing local community theater immediately thereafter, and then was like
fully identified as musical theater kid in high school and
that was that was my So you'll be prepared to
burst out into song with us. Oh definitely during this
episode at anytime. Great, what was your favorite role in

(03:47):
high school? I got to play Suitlist and a funny
thing happened on the way to the forum, which I
wish I would have like checked in with myself about
why I liked it so much that it's like a
like a full blown clown. It's a character after Park
that for some reason is the lead of the show.
And when I was in high school, I just thought,
like the real thing to do is like to be
like romantically Like that means you're the best actors if

(04:09):
you get like Tony and West Side Store and you
play those kinds of roles. And I should have just
known at the times, like no, you're just like a
dumb fucking clown, like like be a character actor, play
clown roles and where the goof is the lead? Yeah,
it's like getting Teva. Yeah, oh here we go. You
know who passed pass guest of the podcast Julia Claire,
who you may remember from Our League of their own episode. Yes,

(04:31):
and she just told me that she saw Alfred and
Molina play Teva on Broadway. She mentioned that on that episode. Oh,
I wasn't listening. Well. She was like, I'm certain I
tells you and I was like, nay, there's audio evidence
of it. Oh. Unfortunately I am a terrible friend, but
I can't, but I would. I would kill to see

(04:53):
Alfred Mollina played Teva. So, Dan, when did you first
see Mulan Rouge. I saw an VHS T. I for
some reason didn't see it in theaters, and I don't
know why, because I see almost everything that I can.
And I alone in my room watched Mulan Ruge because
all my friends were talking about it, and as soon
as it was done, I said, this is really goofy,

(05:14):
and then immediately watched it again, like I don't think
I've ever watched the same movie back to back ever before,
except from Mulan Rouge. And it's strange because it's not
my favorite movie. It's just a movie that I watched
and was like, I need to to absorb when you
watch Rouge. Yeah, it's I mean it is, it's like
considered kind of a classic now, right, I think. So
it's like or it's like a movie that everyone remembers,

(05:35):
and I don't think anyone remembers negatively per se um Jamie,
When did you see Mulin Rouge? Weirdly, this is one
of those movies that I think, if I had seen
it when it came out, it would be such a
part of my identity to the point where I may
not even be here. But what does that mean? I
would be living in France and I thought you meant dead?

(06:00):
Would you would have passed away? You would have deliberately
gotten consumption just to be like Stine and right, I
would be like, you know, it's really hot terminal illness. No,
I I didn't. I didn't see this movie until like
Christmas this year. Well yeah, yeah, I just saw it
recently and I really like it. But it's one of
those movies that I'm like, Man, I wish i'd see
us when I was like when it came out, because

(06:22):
that would have my life would have been taken over
by it. Yeah, I saw it, Um not right when
it came out. I think a few years later I
did a presentation on it as a freshman in college,
where I did have you not done a presentation. But
now it is a good time to mention that I
do have a master's degree in screenwriting. I have. That
was you know, interesting point. That's a lot of presentations.

(06:43):
That's why you have so many presentations. I got two
degrees in film. Yeah. Anyway, So, um, this movie really
took hold of me in like my college years. I
watched it like several times over the course of a
few years, and then I was like, I don't know,
and then I kind of forgot about and stuff watching it.
But um, so okay, Mulin rouge. Should I do the recap? Yes? Yes,

(07:05):
and also you should you should speak like people sing
in this movie, which is just screaming for no reason,
a lot of screams, singing gifts Marzo, You're like, whoa
who Elan McGregor has no concept of volume control. Or

(07:25):
there's a very deeply sadistic audio engineer who worked in
this movie who would bring his levels up and down.
Willie ni I think he was screaming, screaming or whispering.
He like even like my gift is Mazzo and you
you're just like, there's a middle, there's there's others. I
don't know, right, You're gonna moman. I'll cover a bunch

(07:47):
of very specific but very different ground with this in
the way that current basketball superstar Steph Curry is ruining
basketball for the youth because like all kids now want
to be Steph Curry, which means they go very far
out and they shoot threes over and over again, ruining
the work on like a youth level. Sorry, we don't
allow sports talk here on this podcast. I'll bring it
back then McGregor. McGregor did that for a bunch of
boys in central New Jersey when this movie came out.

(08:09):
We were all like, that's what good singing is. Back
was just like belting. He comes in so hot every
single time. What's the song he burst into at the beginning.
So when he's with John Leguizamo and the person to one,

(08:33):
now imagine like a dozen chaotically horny teenage children in
a church in New Jersey doing that is singing. And
I love I love when because most movie musicals, I think,
followed this line of like you're putting movie actors in
a musical, they usually nine percent at the time can't

(08:53):
really sing. And that's true of basically everyone in this movie.
But it's always like treated like. It's like when Emmy
ras Some sings the first song in Phantom of the
Opera and everyone's like, oh my god, and it's like
she is a decent high school soprano at best. It's
the same thing for Ewen McGregor and Nicole Kim and
we're like every time they sing, everyone's like, but we

(09:14):
know objectively, like this is like that this is not
good singing, but it sure is loud. Yeah. So the
story of Mulan Rouge focuses on eumen gregor's character named Christian,
and he moves to Paris. He wants to be a
part of the Bohemian revolution and finds this group of

(09:35):
people who are writing a play called Spectacular Spectacular and
and he's just like, hey, I'm a writer, and they're like, cool,
why don't you write this thing for us? And then
they have a plan to put up their play at
the Mulan Rouge, which is a bordello, which I had
to look up what that is? What is that? It's

(09:56):
just another name for a brothel. So the Mulan Rouge
is a brothel in a dance hall where the creatures
of the underworld hang out and this team of creatives
basically like open mic comedians essentially, and they're like, hey,
let's like try to get her big break at the
Mula Rouge. So they arranged this meeting with Satine, who

(10:17):
is like the she's a headliner. She's the headline exactly.
When she sings poorly, everyone pays attention. She is a courtisan,
and they want to pass off Christian as a famous
English writer who is writing spectacular, spectacular, so that she
will convince Ziddler, the owner of the Mulan Rouge, Jim Bradman,
who yes, squear icon in this movie, or you're saying

(10:41):
a sexual because Jim Broadman's character in this movie only
works if you assume he has no sexual organs at all.
He has a sex lumpin gets very hot, but there's
nothing he can do about it. So yeah, they want
to basically convey and Sidler that they should put on
their play. Meanwhile, Ziddler is orchestrating this thing for Satine

(11:06):
to meet the Duke because they want this guy, the Duke,
to invest in the Moon Rouge because he's very rich
and very powerful. So there's this whole sort of like
comedy of errors where this mistake and identity thing happens,
and Satine meets with Christian thinking that he is the Duke,
and then they magically fall in love over the course

(11:26):
of one in love because he's an amazing singer during
Ma Masa and then you have to fall in love,
you have no choice. So then like she figures out
who he actually is and then she's just like, well
you're poor writer. Yeah, so they end up falling in

(11:51):
love and the Duke is all like, hey, wait a minute,
what about me? And she's like she has to pretend
to like him. Also, meanwhile, they're constructing this place spectacular Spectacular,
which has the exact plot of the love triangle of
Christians the time the Duke, except their play is appropriating
Indian culture, right, so it's like what if what was

(12:13):
happening in our lives but somehow even worse. Yeah, so
then like all the truth comes out where the Duke
finds out about Settine and Christians relationship and the throws
a fit. Also a set she is dying of consumption
sometimes she goes, oh we go, oh yeah, she's she's free,

(12:35):
bleeding out of her mouth and just having a really
bad time anyway, So yeah, all this stuff happens, and
then um, Christian thinks that she doesn't actually love him
because she has to convince him. Oh usuk, I hate you.
And it's just because she's trying to save his life,
and it's the whole thing. And then at the end
they put on the play. It basically turns into an

(12:55):
UCB improv show at the end, and then it's basically
a really high product and value three oh one showcase
that they do at the end, right, and and then's
the team dies, and then Christians really sad about it
and he's the real victim here. That's the story. Do

(13:16):
we miss anything? Probably nothing crucial to the plot. I
don't think I didn't excellent recaptain, say well what you
forgot the narcalyptic Argentinian that is mostly played for last
but doesn't actually have any bearing on the plot. There's
a bunch of weird, right, there's to lose. This is
one of these movies that is plot wise about twelve

(13:38):
minute long. Yes, yeah, yeah, which is fine. That's that's
the nature of the musical movie. Very often, it's hard
to write movies. So you write one there's a musical
within it, just make it the same things. So I
guess to jump in the plot. I mean, at least
the plot starts out as being a story where a

(13:58):
group of men are trying to trick a woman so
that they can get what they want, which is their
stupid play. Sounds like open my comedians to me. Well, well,
even going back a little further than that, just like
the fact that were introduced to Christian as like this
genius who can just improvise classic songs from the past century.

(14:21):
Is so it's really funny to be where all the
jukebox musical elements to this movie are just even McGregor
yelling and being applauded, because especially in that scene where
I mean and that that's an interesting thing to talk about,
the first scene between Settine and Christian where she assaults

(14:41):
him a little bit and then he squirms away and
then immediately improvises a very famous Elton John song and
then they're in love. You're just like, this is I'm
almost like when I saw that, I'm like, I guess
I'm glad I didn't see this movie when I was ten,
because that is a very strange precedent. Yeah, like yeah,
she so she thinks that he is the duke and

(15:03):
because she is a sex worker. She's meant to be
seducing him so that he will invest in the Mulan Rouge. Yes,
which I think, uh powerhouse comedic performance by Nicole Kidman,
who I don't think it's enough credit for being very funny,
but watching this movie again last night, she's very funny
in it. And that scene is incredibly silly because he

(15:23):
wants to do poetry and she wants to do sex,
and then and they don't talk about it, and when
he starts a studying poetry and she just goes, oh,
that's right, this is what I want, naughty words, and
then she starts like she's coming all over the couch.
It's so funny. She's like flailing around like she's she's
going to hurt herself, especially because it was like she's

(15:45):
terminally ill. She just can't be flailing herself around like that.
She's going to pass out. And then eventually she she
she fake hornies herself into a dizzy spell. Right, Yeah,
Well you know that problem when you're trying to hook
up with a guy and he's like, no, I want
to read you a poem. This is a problem problem.
But I do appreciate Christian's behavior in this scene because

(16:10):
she's like throwing herself at him and he's like, is
this okay? Is this what you want? Because he's there
just thinking he's going to recite his poetry for her,
not realizing that she is expecting to be having sex
with him, So he's like, are you sure, but like
he's he understands consent, he doesn't understand consent, but also
he's like, no, don't fuck me. I'm just trying to

(16:32):
trick you. But it's a weird between I'm trying to
trick your personality right right. So at the end, so
that scene ends by her realizing that he is not,
in fact the Duke and is actually a penniless writer,
and then she was like gross, an open mit comedian.

(16:54):
And then they part ways. But then he's like, oh
my god, I can't stop thinking about her. So he
returns to her elephant, where she hangs out in her
big hollow elephant in the sky, scales the walls of
the elephant, scares her not unlike snow White, and then
and then sings a song in her which makes her

(17:16):
fall in love. Song, what my Gift is My One song? Yeah,
we were doing caitln and I watched this movie together
Friday night and we were doing a mashup of men
scaling a wall and then singing one song. I have

(17:38):
a note that I did Friday night. I guess that
just says Ewen screaming bangs McGregor, and that's the whole note. Wait,
how do you say his name? It's as far as
I know Owen. Yeah. Oh, another note, I had a

(17:59):
lot of xylophone in this movie. There are a lot
of sound cues in this movie, very silly. It's yeah,
I have all caps sound effects as a thing because
it's it really happens a lot like there's I think
the beginning of this movie has one of the most alienating, wacky,
aggressive intros of any movie that I can think of,
because once it's settin and Christian meet, I think, like

(18:19):
starting from your song, it's sort of unfold like a
movie you'd expect to unfold. It's far school and it's
silly and nobody's cool in it. But in the beginning
it starts with bearded Christian writing and it's like Paris
Dred's like I gotta tell a story now, and then
it's like fuck you, Paris and it goes back to
when he meets a Tina and he starts writing this story.
The cutting is very quick, it's very very jumpy, and

(18:41):
he's talking about like he's sitting at his typewriter. Young
Owen McGregor is saying, like, I want to write a
play about love. There's only one problem. Smash cut to
his face. I've never been in love. And it's like,
this is such a silly yeah, And before you can
even like wrap your head around it, it's like and
then uh, anocalyptic Argentinia man through my ceiling with is
that John Leguizamo For some reason, it's it's it really

(19:04):
seems like announces itself. That is like, hey, here's our
silliest ship up front, and if you're not ready for it,
you shoul just like walk out now because the rest
of you're not gonna like it. Then they also have
John Leguizama, who is not a little person, playing a
little person and yikes, but there is an actual little
person in this movie, one of the women in the

(19:25):
oh yeah, who works one of those sex workers. Another
another brilliant note I had is the primary cast is redheaded,
which is maybe bactal cast. First, very progressive great represent redheads,

(19:45):
Nicole Kidman, natural redhead, Jim Bradben red and out in
this one, Ellen McGregor, Brunette boo, e's a dick. And
then wait, the dude, the Duke, he's like a strawberry blonde.
He's a he's a I'm a hot ginge. I wouldn't
go so far as to say that, Okay, I like
I like the Duke because he this movie is so cartoony,

(20:07):
and the Duke reminds me of a trope that has
been unpacked and examined within an inch of its life,
But like the queer villain trope where I feel like
that is the Duke, even though he is also aggro
and hetero at the same time. It's like he's stylized
like a cartoony queer villain, like a jaffar basically with

(20:28):
like his twirly little mustache, and it's like he but
then it's also like, oh no, he's aggressively hetero and
very toxic at the same time. Right, there's a line
in the movie where he, I mean, it's very clear
that he sees Setine as a piece of property that
he is paying for, and he literally equates her two

(20:48):
items and he says he's like, I'm not a jealous man,
I just don't like people touching my thing. Yes, yes,
that was so at least that's you. His talk masculinity
is used to show that he is a villain, because
that doesn't always happen in movies where you know, sometimes
there's toxic masculinity and we're supposed to identify with that character,

(21:09):
so at least we'll understand to rape her. Okay, Yes,
there is a very difficult to watch rape scene. That
scene is bananas on so many levels because it is
also scored to a really poor karaoke version of Roxanne
by the Police, which, listening to the lyrics, now a
problematic song. Sure. Yeah. And speaking of problems, who is

(21:32):
Setene eventually saved by a character named lay Shock a Lot?
That's right? Who is the black man who works at
the Mulon Rouge? Only black person in the movie, I
believe so. And his name is basically Chocolate and it's
never spoken. You have to go on the im we
here at one time, do you know, someone says thank

(21:52):
you Shock a Lot? And I've seen it maybe like
twelve or thirteen times at this point, and never picked
up on that, and then last night Austin and was like,
surely they said John Claude or something like that, and
I really wanted to give them to the benefit of
the doubt, and then went to I Amdb and it's
a lot. There's also a character played by an Asian
woman named China Doll, which we don't find out in

(22:13):
the movie, but it's on IMDb. So there's some really
problematic and the whole play where they're just appropriating the
culture and there's all white people in that play. Well,
not great. Not a great precedent to set back. Okay,
so back to the back to the rape scene. I

(22:34):
hate that I have to say that, yeah, we're edging
away from racial appropriation, we're getting back to the rapes
to at this point, got it, got it, got It?
So that scene, I think it's the documentary misrepresentation that
talks about this. We're oftentimes in movies, a rape scene
will be framed not that dissimilar from an actual, like

(22:55):
consensual sex scene where it's like kind of sexy almost
you know. Obviously that's a horrible way to frame rape.
And I think that at least this movie doesn't do that.
I also, I think that's necessarily true. There were this
whole time and this whole so it's done to the
rock sand song Oh yes, and we're cutting so that

(23:18):
whole scene, you're cutting back and forth between the dude
basically attempting to rape Setene. Uh, and then we're cutting
back to like a very sexy musical number. I think
that that definitely contextualizes it in a very bizarre way.
I don't think you know. That to me says drama,
but it doesn't say danger necessarily. I don't know. I mean,

(23:38):
I think when you're watching it, you do get the
sense of like, she like it's really hard to watch
and yeah, like she's scared, and it's definitely I don't
know it is I see your point. I just think
paying rape to a musical like that is a very
choice for sure. They also do a really strange like
pre softening of it, or an attept to press soften it,

(24:00):
I guess with before this, Jim Broadbent and the Duke
do a cover of Madonna's like a version because Jim
Rodburn is trying to explain why Seten has not come
to the Duke to sleep with him. It's like, oh,
she's gone fassing. She wanted to confess her sins and
be pure because the duke makes her feel virginal. And
then they both like growl at each other very wet

(24:22):
mouthedly about how great versions are. And then which is
crazy because Jim Broadbent's character is neutered. Yeah, so Jim
Broadban like dresses up like a woman in that scene
and the duke chases her around, and it's played like
Benny Hill goof up thing, like, look at the duke
chasing around this this woman. Isn't that funny? He's gonna

(24:44):
do it for real later the dance and waiters. Yeah,
that I didn't even think of that as Yeah, that
is kind of like a warm of like a very
goofy scene featuring the rapist. And then you see the
rape in the next scene. Didn't I didn't even think
of that. Yeah. Man. At the end of the rape scene,
she is rescued by character Christian comes and no, she's

(25:07):
rescued by Oh, she's rescued, and then he comes in
and she's like, I was scared, And so the conclusion
to the rape scene is like and she could not
save herself, and the character that is a whole other
issue this movie has rescues her for the second time

(25:28):
because he also catches her at the beginning when she's
go she falls off of a circus swing. Not to
make light of consumption, I think that we can make
light of consumption is not a problem. So no, it's
isn't it the same thing as to bercular okay, h,
which is still a thing. We just don't call it
consumption anymore. So, not to make light of a serious

(25:49):
illness tuberculosis saving. But yeah, so yeah, she does have
to be saved. I have conflicting feelings about seems like
where like a lot of times when a woman has
to be saved in a movie, it's because like the
super villain captured her and she has no agency and
she can't do anything for herself, and she needs the

(26:11):
male superhero to come and fix everything and to save her.
It feels a little bit different in a situation where
a woman is being assaulted and someone intervenes and steps
in to save her. So like, obviously I want that
to happen. If there is an assault taking place, I
want someone to intervene, assuming she isn't in the position

(26:32):
to do that for herself. I deeply dislike the scene
on every level because the takeaway from that scene is
also like it uses in sort of the classic way
that media often does, uses rape as a plot device,
and that is the final thing that launches her into
realizing she truly loves Christian because she was almost raped
by the duke, and that is so like that happens

(26:54):
all the time, using rape as like the final thing
to convince the woman that she's actually in love with
someone who hasn't attempted to rape her, even though that
person is very possessive and weird and yelling all the time. Which, yeah,
that was also one of my least favorite parts about it,
that the reason that she fought him wasn't because she
didn't want to get raped, for the violation aspects of

(27:15):
it and the removal of power and just the everything
terrible about rape. It is because she explains to Christian later,
I just couldn't go through with it because I really
love right right. She doesn't even tell him that he
attempted to rape her. She yeah, she just contextualizes it
as like, I don't want to be this person anymore.
I don't want to have to like sell my body
to please men, and you know, which perpetuates a message

(27:37):
that that was a necessary thing to happen to her
to get her back to the protagonists. And that's just
like you see that when you're super young. That's like
just a nasty little precedent, right to say. And I
want to talk more about Christian like being extremely possessive
of her, because both of the characters that are vying
for Statine's love are extremely possessive of her. It's villainized

(28:01):
more in the Duke obviously. Well then also Jim brodbin's
her in a non sexual way, in a business way, right,
it's true business. Yeah. So christians arc goes from he
quickly falls in love with her, and she sort of
acts like she loves him, and then she actually does

(28:22):
fall in love with him, and then they're canoodling behind
the scenes and like having this clandestine relationship. Meanwhile, he
is upset that she has to be spending time with
the Duke because Ziddler keeps being like, hey, you know,
he's he holds the deeds to the Moonlan Rouge, you
have to appease the Duke. And to be fair, Setine

(28:43):
Is does seem to have a vested interest in the
Milon Rouge succeeding, and she's not pushing against Ziddler that
much because she's she has a vested interest in the
businesses success as well. So she's going to do her job. Yes, yeah, yeah,
And we'll get into a whole other station about sex work.
I spoke to a sex worker and I was just like, hey,
can you give me some insight and anticipation of this episode? Yes, wow, yeah,

(29:09):
I do my research. That's so le So I want
to get into that in a moment. But um so
Satin's character, she understands what her job is, and Christian
knows also the nature of her profession and that she
has sex with other people for various reasons, and it

(29:29):
makes him very jealous, and several different scenes throughout the
course of the movie to the point where his arc
sort of ends with she has convinced him that she
doesn't love him anymore in an attempt to save his
life because the Duke's like, I'm going to get my
man servant love joy sorry Titanic reference to murder Christian.
So she like sends him away and he's like depressed
and having an emo episode about it in his bed,

(29:51):
and episode just go away, please stop you like a
John Logzalla. So then he's like, wait a minute, there's
something weird about this. I have to go see what's wrong.
So he sells this typewriter, gets all this cash drama,
confronts Settin in the middle of their play, throws money

(30:12):
at her, and he's like, I've paid my whore and
it's a very so hot love when people screen it
at me when I'm in the middle of doing something.
He's clearly a feminist di com in that moment. She
also told him in song in the beginning of the
movie that they shouldn't be together because you will be mean,
and he's like, no, I won't and then smash cut

(30:33):
to the end of the movie where he's throwing money
at her and calling her horror and like storming off
on her opening night. Yeah, foreshadowing. So he is not
respecting like the boundaries of her work and not respecting
the nature of her work and can't hang. He cannot hang.
His problem is he cannot hang. And so that is
a huge problem because so Setine, I have a lot

(30:56):
of conflicting thoughts about this movie, where I think it's
interest sting and even cool that we see a movie
where one of the main characters is a sex worker
and it is like hyper glamorized, and you know, it's
very flashy, and her life is made to seem like
really extravagant, and a lot of times when we're seeing

(31:17):
depictions of sex workers and movies, they are like tattered
women who are addicted to drugs, and they're like work
in the streets. And that is true for some sex workers.
There's some sex workers where they do live sort of
an upscale, glamorous lifestyle, and then there's a whole other
kind of branchise suppose of sex work where it's kind

(31:38):
of middle class, and this has been ushered in by
the Internet era, and the sex worker I spoke with
today basically advertises her services online, is able to screen
her clients, feels very liberated in her job. This job
is her choice. She wants to be doing this. She
wasn't forced by anyone. She's not doing it to support
a drug habit or anything like that, which is what

(32:00):
I think. A lot of people have an understanding of
what sex work must be or that's the means to
that end. So there's a whole ton of people doing
a type of sex work where it's like on their
terms and this is what they want to be doing
and they are proud to be doing this, and media
almost never touches on this or porchas this in any way.
So I was basically just asking, like, how do you

(32:22):
feel about depictions of sex work in movies like Mulan Rouge,
And she was just basically saying, like it's treated as
something that both male characters are trying to save Setine
of trying to like get her out of this lifestyle
and even settin in the movies like oh, I can't
wait to be a great actress like Sarah Bernhardt, she
has like desires outside of being a sex worker. And

(32:43):
again that might be true for a number of people
in sex work profession, but that's not necessarily true. So
and granted you also have to consider the time that
this movie is taking place in It's turned the century France,
where I would argue probably not a thoroughly researched part
of the movie because they are singing fat boy slim
a lot of really just on the historical accuracy level.

(33:07):
I never understood why John Louizaa plays on to loose
La Trek, who was a real person who lived at
this time and was a little person that had a cane.
That's a real person who existed in the art scene
didn't and no one else in the movie is real,
but they picked this one person and they're like, well,
we need like for some Vario similitude, we need to
loose La Trek in there, and then Christian and Shock

(33:30):
a lot and Satin and a much of other made
up people. I don't understand why I think that that
that you bring up the the idea that sex work
is something that the team would have to be saved from.
This kind of reminded me of this is a fun
roundabout plug. We recently did a bonus episode on The
Big Lebowski, and I recognize a similar theme here where

(33:51):
there's two very specific types of toxic masculinity presented in
this movie, and it's clear which kind the movie favors.
You know. So we have the Duke, who is a
capitalist and entitled and a rapist, bad across the board,
bad bad, bad. But then you look at the Christian

(34:11):
character and he's not a good guy. He is still
very entitled, he is still jealous and possessive, and that
form of toxicity is not challenging anyway by the movie,
and in fact, the movie is like, this is what
you want you, this is the guy I And I'm
also just so tired of like movies being like you

(34:34):
should date a loser. It's like, you know what, Actually,
I don't want to Setina's out earning him to like
an absurd degree in this movie, I'm like, why are
you putting up with this loser who's just like, hey,
you stop kissing on their boys. I'm like, get a
job there. Anyways, you're going to ruin my romantic life
as a unemployed writer who streams a lot and unemployed

(34:58):
screaming icon Ellen middle parts screamer McGregor. There's if there's
one saving grades for this movie. If I want to
give the movie more credit than it probably deserves in
terms of being clever, which I shouldn't um, the framing
device of the movie is still this is the story

(35:18):
as told from Christians perspective. So what we're seeing is
what he has written out on his hypewriter, his play
or movie or book. You know what, he does have
a masters from bu that's for sure. I don't know
if I want to give bos enough credit for this.
But if I'm being generous, I would say, bos, you

(35:38):
made this so very clearly males story with women that
need to be saved because it's a The guy who's
writing it is wrong, and that's if I want to
go two levels in and give him extra credit. I
don't think that was the thought that went into it.
I don't think they thought, let's make a love story,
but let's make sure that it's written from a males
perspective and problematic because of that. Lens Little Boss, Bosses

(36:03):
of polarizing guy. He wears Aviator sunglasses a lot. He's Australian.
This is the third movie in his Red Curtain trilogy.
He's just you know, I'll say a boss is a
piece of work and he needs to chill out. And
the Great Gatsby sucked eggs. Oh yeah, What are the
other in the Red Curtain trilogy? Strictly Ballroom from which

(36:26):
I don't know what that is? Romeo plus Juliette, Clara
Dains and Leonardo DiCaprio, lots of Hawaiian shirts. Jamie Kennedy,
Jamie Kennedy, the Jamie Kennedy Experiment. I want to marry
into the family stuff, so I and then I want
to become the dominant jam I want to get into
But he's not of the Kennedy's is he. No? No,

(36:49):
no family. No, I want to marry into the Kennedy's.
Here's my plan. I need to Mary into the political
dynasty Kennedy's and then become a more powerful Jamie Kennedy
and oh okay, and then fight Jamie Kennedy. And that

(37:10):
makes sense. Yeah, there's a more powerful Daniel O'Brien in
the world. That really Yeah he was an orphan who
went on to become a gold medal winning Olympic well ship. Yeah,
there's nothing I could do. I've tapped the Jamie Loftus,
who's a really successful realtor in St. Louis shout out.
I'll fight her any day. But now it's like, well,

(37:31):
I gotta Step one, Mary Kennedy. This will be easy.
Step to figure out Jamie Kennedy contact information, and this
will be harder. Step three. Challenge him to a public fight.
Step four, get very strong. Step five, beat Jamie Kennedy up.

(37:52):
Step six, start a show called the Jamie Kennedy Experiment.
Step six, seven, seven, have my version of the Jamie
Kennedy Experiment go on exactly one episode longer than the
original Jamie Kennedy experiment. That's the plank, that's the that's

(38:13):
the real Jamie Kennedy experiment. Great, best of luck to
you and that so much so. Yeah, you're right, the
story is totally from the male perspective. And side note,
like the opening shots you see in the Mulan Rouge
of like all the dancers, it's a lot of like
disembodied female body parts and like women lifting. There's and

(38:36):
it just feels like very kind of headless women of Hollywood.
Shut objectifying. You're not going to believe this, but every
major behind the scenes player in this movie is a man.
Right directed, produce, screenplay, cinematography, editing, all and most of
the characters are men. You would think that a movie
set in a brothel would feature more characters who are women.

(39:00):
What is the name of the other female character who? Okay,
I want to talk to talk about her a little bit,
but I don't know what her name is. Marie. I
could call in her old carpet bangs because she has
these crazy tassel bangs. She's mean and that's all I know.

(39:20):
Nini is the one who talks to Duke and he's like,
why would she get with the pene list writer. Honestly,
fair point by all carpet things, I identified closely with
Attle carpet things, where she's just like why is she
dating that fuck boy? Why is it what? And it's like, okay,
fair carpet things, but like who are you and why

(39:41):
are you so angry? Where she's the only other employee
of the Mulin rouge who's a woman that we really meet,
and she is and this is again like something we
see over and over. She's just baselessly very hateful and
antagonistic towards the team because women behating women, and you know,
it's like in my I feel like the implication is,

(40:03):
and it's never explicitly stated, but the implication is, well,
Setina is the big star, so everyone's going to resent
her because she's the big star and everyone else is
trying to get ahead. But it's so shoehorned in just
because basically Carpet Bangs is there to deliver a plot point,
which is to tell the Duke that Christian and Setina
hooking up, like that's why she's there, And then she's

(40:24):
also in that she's the one they're cutting back to
it when Setina is getting raped and it's like carpet bangs.
You deserved better. Yeah, I well, I definitely took note
of how there was obvious sort of like lack of
sisterhood or like sense of family among the sex workers
in and I asked the woman who was a sex

(40:45):
worker about this, and I said, like, what's your take
on that. I would imagine that there's more of a
just like sense of camaraderie among these women, and she
said that, yeah, Bronzelis probably did sort of operate like families,
but because they were all kind of in competition with
each other because they were working for a man and
the man was collecting most of their wages, they were

(41:07):
not independently operating and therefore did sort of have to
be in competition with each other. So it actually kind
of tracks that Nini was so antagonistic towards Settin, but
the movie does not make any I feel like that's
giving the movie a lot of credits. She was there
to deliver a platform. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the movie doesn't
really explore the intricacies of sex work from that time,

(41:28):
and I would guess probably has no fucking idea they existed,
because the female characters are not who they're invested in
at all. Movie. I didn't even really know that it
was specifically a brothel and sex workers. I know the
play within a play is about a Cortison and that's
a sex worker, but I thought Mulan Rouge was more
like a burlesque call, Like I learned from you that
this is a brothel. I thought it was a burlesque call.

(41:50):
And they were like not formally selling Seine to the Duke,
but just sort of like if you marry this guy. Like,
but yeah, now that I know that it is about
sex workers, it's job movie. In the opening um like
voiceover where Christians like typing on his little typewriter which
he apparently had to buy another one of because he
sells his first one to throw money at Setine. I'll

(42:15):
show you. So that's oh that. I had a note
of that too. I was like, oh, no, white male
writer quit, No horrible, what a loss. But he so
he buys another typewriter and he starts typing up his
story about him and Settine, and he was explaining like

(42:36):
what the Milan Rouge is, and he calls it a
bordello and I had to look up what that is,
but it is synonymous with a brothel. So I think
the first time I saw this movie, I knew that
they were sex workers. I like, I was like, oh,
that's what they were. Maybe not like I feel like
I knew that good, but just because I knew what
Milan Rouge was, right. Yeah, you also wrote up opening
shots of them where you just see like legs of

(42:58):
women dancing and like they lift up their skirts you
see underwear. Uh, just in googling a little bit last night.
Originally they wanted that to be they would have no
one to wear, so it would just be like a
parade of headless vaginas. And then they wanted the PG
thirteen ratings, so they decided not to do that. But
that's almost how this movie opened. That's horrifying. But I
do love as a nickname the headless vagina. Um. I

(43:20):
wanted to mention because I just double checked because I
was like, okay, Nini, I did not catch that name,
but she is credited as her last name, Ninie Legs
in the air. Unbelievable. Great God, It's like I get
that you're training to have a fun time but please stop,

(43:41):
please stop. Oh Kylie Minogue is in this movie, I'm
the Green Fairy. Well that's an original, Okay, So let's
talk a little bit about how bohemia is presented in
this movie, because it is a very like utopian thing
for a very specific kind of person. Where at the
beginning where they're like be do you freedom like foe
guys are on a balcony screaming beauty, freedom, truth and love,

(44:04):
and then there's like a gyrating Kylie Minogue like grabbing
in her own tips and being like, yeah, they're so right,
and it's like, it's just I don't know. I just
didn't That sets the precedent for what the movie is
because then they're because when they're singing that, they're like,
let's go trick a lady and they're going off and

(44:25):
then they try to do it. Yeah, I don't know
that was I was just like, man, this movie is
sure to come out in two one. Geez, same Trek
everyone two thousand one people are like a difficult ear
for us because of Shreky to Trek, why Strick two

(44:48):
is the better? Cuss? I owned Trick two on DVD anyway,
So it's actually I would say pretty than the first.
I would most likely five, because fives in production is
three through five. Scrap them, don't eat them. Puss in Boots,

(45:10):
I haven't seen it. Speaking of Puss in Boots, though
didn't know that cats have eight nipples. Cat facts. With Caitlin,
there was like there was a cat in this movie
for like a second, isn't Yeah, It was like when
one of the bohemian apartments. Oh sure I didn't pick
up on it. Wow, I was surprised you didn't squeal
when we watched the movie together. But I was like,

(45:30):
you know, me always squiling when I see that was
a poor characterization of who you are as a person.
Just a little bit more on Satine and how because
she is framed as like the object of several different
people's affections movie and she's given agency, but a lot
of her behavior is also like kind of wild, and

(45:54):
she's a sex worker who is portrayed not l I
would say, but perhaps better than sex workers in a
lot of movies, where she has some degree of agency
and she does stand up for herself toward the end
whenever she's about to go run off with Christian and

(46:17):
she's you know, confronting Ziler instead something like you've only
ever made me feel like I was worth what someone
would pay for me. And she's like, I'm tired of
your games, Like I don't, I'm sick of the Mulan rouge.
We're leaving and that Jim Bradvan does not tell her
she is going to die. Yes, he knows problem, and
that's when he reveals it to her. He's like, you're talking,
he's got I mean, which we were saying when we're

(46:39):
watching the movie. We're like, oh, he's got a trump card.
He's got a Trump card. He's got a Trump card,
which is so manipulative. Like the fact that they were
withholding that information from her is insane. I mean, I
am going to do that to Jamie Kennedy. But also
I view that as reparations also like a bizarre I
guess I don't know this reflective of nineteen hundreds France

(46:59):
or not, but she'd been going to that doctor for
a while and it was just one point where the
doctor was just like, is there a man that I
could tell about her condition? Like like even the doctor
doesn't tell her, just like, is there like an older
male figure around like a policeman or something that I
could just tell I wouldn't be surprised if that were
a standard in in a bordello of like, oh, we're

(47:19):
not going to communicate directly with the patients. I'm sure
that it wasn't like ethical, but that was a while
that because you knew, like the audience knows that so
early on. And Setina is just like, I have this
persistent cough and it's like no, Also, women be fainting,
but I guess in this movie she's fainting for it's

(47:41):
a motivated faint, but still it's just like, okay, So
my point is I like that you at least get
to see her stand up for herself finally, at least
we get to see her stand up. At least we
get to see her type five. She's a headliner. She's
she's doing, she's working after her it's free French friend.

(48:02):
She's going to submit her half our favorite part to
halfy Central any day now. It's gonna be great. She
could do great. So at least you get to see
her stand up for herself. You know, doesn't really get
her anywhere, and she does, in fact die at the
end of the movie. Oh and can I say I
did really admire the way that she dies, which is
again very plot driven and informs the entire framing device

(48:23):
of the movie, but with her dying breath. So the
team gives Christian homework assignment, which is super dup, and
I will remember that when I am dying to be
like before I go write a novel about me goodbye,
just like he has to do it now or he's
the biggest asshole in the entire world and there was

(48:45):
no room for him to be Like I can't. I
sold my typewriter to call you a horn in front
of your friends. Wait, is it gonna get read? I
cannot wait to a die be give someone a homework,
a very complicated homework assignment that is basically a shrine

(49:09):
to me as I die, like to make sure there's
clean water for everyone dies, Like shit, yeah, oh yeah,
I can't wait to die anyway. So getting so sweaty
doing bits, I'm sorry, Dan, that's gonna be of my

(49:35):
life time of trying to get nicknames to stick. Dan,
sweaty bits, that's gonna be the one that's the one
that you want. No, it's not big Dragon, It's gonna
be sweaty bits on my tombstone? Have you sorry? Have
you tried for big Dragon? I did? Well? Yeah, my
life is like super not real. I'm not a real person. Um,
I don't legitimately think I should be called big Dragon.

(49:56):
I think the idea of a person insisting on being
called big Dragon is are you funny? To me? So
I was like, it wouldn't be cool if I was
like a character who did that, and I just do
it in real life, because I because life, life is
a movie. Everyone wasn't some people do that's exciting. I'm
gonna put an end to either. Everyone should start addressing
me as Jamie Kennedy and just put that vibe out there,
and then Mary Kennedy and kill the other Jamie Kennedy.

(50:19):
Do you know, are there a bunch of young Kennedy's
running around? Still? There are Taylor switches sucking some of them.
They're around, They're around, and they're erect and they're they're
ready for you. You just have to lookate them. Great.
Caitlyn is strategically already deleting this in her mind. You know,

(50:43):
what do you mean? I'm trying to like figure out
what my like faces statement for this episode is because like,
I can't really I just don't know how I feel
about like Satine and her. I don't know. The one
argument I would make for this movie, because it does
make so many missteps in terms of representing literally anything,

(51:07):
is that it is so extremely silly and removed from
reality that I would hope and again, it's different when
you have a very young audience coming to a movie
like this, but I would hope that for the every
man adult basically, that you wouldn't leave this movie being like, oh,
a blueprint of how to behave in reality, you know,

(51:29):
where where some movies I feel like are are are
more problematic at a deeper level because they're portraying normal
people behaving very toxically, where at least everyone in this
movie is so cartoonishly removed from what reality is now
or probably ever at any point in time, because people
are just people will be singing in eggs or elephants

(51:51):
or whatever it is that it's presented as a farce,
and that doesn't make the problematic parts less bad, but
it does make them easier to dis this totally. And
I think that's one of the reasons I like this
movie so much, because as we all know I don't
like musicals generally, but I really like this movie. And
I think it's because the reason I don't like a
lot of musicals is that I just have a really

(52:12):
hard time suspending my disbelief for like people just suddenly
bursting into song. But because this movie is so cartoonish
and so far removed from everything that we recognize as reality.
Then I'm like, because I mean everything between the production
design and Boss Lerman's like, hey, like half of the
scenes in this movie, Boss Lerman's like, get every red
gel in Hollywood and then put him on the lights.

(52:34):
And then for the other half, get me every blue
jeal is Hollywood and put it on the lights. So like,
the movie just looks so wild, like the costumes and
the set design and everything about it is just like
so flashing and wild that we don't like. That's why
I'm able to suspend my disbelief for this movie. And

(52:54):
this movie was like influential and that it put the
ability to make a Hollywood movie musical briefly back on
the map as a viable thing you could do. It
was only for like five or so years, and then
by the time we hit Rent and like Rock of
Age as everyone's like, oh, yis you know what barrier
for a couple of decades and we'll try again. But
this and then a few years later Chicago where the

(53:17):
two hit movies that it's like, maybe we can and
then they made fandom of the Opera and Rent and
the like perhaps we should put in a little too
close to the sun on those. Yeah, but that I
I like that the same reason that you do, Caitlin.
And there there's a Boss Lerman quote about and I
don't I'm not a big boss Lerman guy because I
agree that Gatsby is full trash. I'm not a boss boy.

(53:41):
But he was influenced by and it's insane that he
didn't let this influence spread into the casting. But when
he was in India working on something and he saw
a buch of Bollywood films, he was really heavily influenced
by that and how much joy there was in the
cinema and how the audience was participating, and he was saying,
as there, would we ever be able to do that
in the West, Would we will ever be able to
be not cool and just lean into uncoolness? And in

(54:03):
service of just sharing this story with a singular voice,
and I hate coolness, and I think most movies are
too cool for for for school these days. And I
like the idea of the Big Dragon O'Brien, but a
statement movies are too cool. Be my friend, you know what?

(54:23):
These days too cool? So he went to Bollywood and
he's just like, hm, I could appropriate this white if
I still that's interesting. I didn't know that that totally
makes sense, especially given the play within the play is
sort of like reflecting that directly. You know, It's like,
I am not upset this movie exists at all. I

(54:44):
enjoy watching it. The problems are very clear. I don't
know what it is that you're just like but as
Melan Rouge, Like yeah, I think it's also like you.
You're both probably pretty lucky that it didn't come to
you in high school like it came to me right
around September eleven, because it did make us all very
insufferable for a while, like yeah, I mean, well people
are looking for escapes. Yeah, I I love Mulan Rouge,

(55:08):
and then for a couple of years like distance myself
from it because like the the cult of people who
are really into Mulan Ruge was like Oh that's not
I don't want to be Where is there a based
issue with this movie that makes sense? Um? I think
it's it's rolled into the to the broader fan base
of really irritating theater kids in general. Just we're gonna
go to Friday's after the show. We're still gonna have
our old line makeup on our foreheads, and we're gonna

(55:30):
sing rent and everyone's gonna love it. The rest of
the restaurant is gonna be like, what a treat? Does
no one have any final thoughts about the portrayal of
women in the movie, mug I don't think we talked
about Marie, who is one of the other named women
who has a couple of lines in the movie, and
she's sort of like the dead mother of the brothels,
just like non sexually running it with Jim Broadbent, and

(55:50):
you would think, I feel like that this movie was
made today, she would have had a way more prominent role. Yeah, yeah,
well that bring let's talk about whether or not this
movie passes deep Entel test, because several conversations take place
where Settine is there and Marie is there and they
sort of sometimes talk to each other. You know, we've
got I feel like you and I have to make

(56:12):
a sort of call of whether a scene should pass
the Bactel test if when the conversation that arguably could
pass happens. We know both names, because I think that
when the arguable scenes. Unless I'm mistaken, we don't yet
know Marie's name, but we figure it out later, and
then it's like, well does this scene pass in retrospect?

(56:32):
Really getting into the weeds here, Well, okay, So the
scene where they first interact, it's after Settine has fainted, right,
and then deposits her. In this Marie is holding some
smelling salts up to her and she wakes a classic revival.
And you don't know this unless you are watching the

(56:54):
movie with subtitles, on which I always do brag. You
do always do subtitles, you guys. Okay, so how dare
you subtitle shame me? Okay? Sorry? This so, so Tina
wakes up and it's so breathy that you don't really
know what she's saying, but she says Marie. Does she

(57:15):
say her name? She says her name these silly costumes
and then so she says her name, but you hardly
know that it's there, and then Marie says, just a
little thing in spell, and then and that's the that's
the line that we don't really know what she says
unless you're watching with subtitles on, because it's so kind
of garbled that it's hard to tell what she's saying.

(57:38):
Before that, Nanie says to oh, Nanie legs in the air,
nany legs in the air, It can't pass. The woman's
name is Nanie Legs in the air. She's and she
talks to another woman and I don't remember exactly who
it is. Uh Nini says something like, I don't know
if the dog''s gonna get his manage last tonight. She's

(58:00):
also Michael Caine, it's like and then the other woman says,
don't be on coined, Nini. But that doesn't pass the
back to test because they mentioned the duke, and also
we don't know that other woman's name. The scene where
Sattine says Marie these silly costumes and then Marie says,
just a little fainting spell. I guess passes, but we're

(58:23):
also hard to tell what any of them are saying.
And then later on there is a scene where Marie
says to Satine that twinkle toast duke has really taken
the bait, and then Setine giggles he and then I
was like, what is going And then Marie says, with

(58:43):
a patron like him, you could be the next Sarah Bernhard.
Speaking of patrons, please sign up for our patreon. Okay,
Satine responds, Marie, do you think I could really be
like the great Sarah? Marie says, why not. You've got
the talent. You hook that duke and you'll be lighting
up the great stages Europe. And Seteene says, I'm going
to be a real actress, Marie, a great actress. I'm

(59:05):
gonna fly far away from here. That does pass? I would?
I mean, they do talk about the duke, but because
we have a you know, just two lines exchange. Yeah,
there are two lines where they are not. And yes,
the team's talking about her goals and Sarah Bernhard and
how she wants to be just like her. So with regrets,

(59:25):
Millnerge does pass the factal test, it would seem so, yes, yes,
I do think that ultimately it is bleak that we
are shown a majority female workplace that sidelines every of
those women in the movie. So significantly except for body
part shots also sidelines. Do you guys have thoughts to

(59:48):
forgive me if it's Aubrey or Audrey. It's the original
writer who I believe as a man wearing a Audrey Audrey. Yeah,
he plays Farremire in the Lord of the Rings. I've
never seen a Lord of the Rings. I know. I
saw them as like, this is for geeks. I can't
believe how much you're shaming me today. I'm so I'm sorry.

(01:00:10):
I don't know what's from, yeah, Audrey. I didn't know
if they were trying to present this is like this
is a potential transperson, or this is just or I'm
reading into it. It's just maybe that's his natural hair.
But it felt like a like a like a bob
wig that he was wearing in France, hard to say,
not a masculine name. So I didn't know what they

(01:00:32):
if they were trying to present a trans character, and
then if they were bad on you movie for replacing
it with the straight white male you and McGregor immediately right,
But I don't trying to always suppress queer voices. There
is a very quick shot you see of two men
very heavily tattooed dancing together in the Moulin Rouge, but

(01:00:53):
like miss that. Oh yeah, there's just like a quick
moment of queerness do you see on screen? And then
it's immediately cut away from gay panic in my notes,
but I don't know why I wrote it in all
caps right after sound effects and I'm trying to that's
early in the movie, so maybe it's is it when
I didn't write down the exact moment. But there is
a moment where there are a few tasteless jokes in

(01:01:13):
regards to like I think it's basically in any scene
where there are men hanging out together as friends, there
is some sort of like what is because the unconscious
Argentinian puts his hands on Christians crotch and then he's
just like I love talent and he's like nothing funny,
just like talent, yes, and then um, which is across
the board bonkers thing to do in nineteen hundreds Bohemian

(01:01:36):
France if you're like this big artistic community and you're
like we're in truth, beauty and love, but like no
gay people obviously, right right. Yeah, Also, he is one
of two people who grabs Christians crotch in the movie,
because later Setine is like, You've caught a huge talent,
and they're like wow. And then all the people who
are spying on them, which is to loosen the other

(01:01:57):
the Argentinian andre freaking bays are just and also separately,
Ziddler is watching them through a telescope. It's crazy. There's
so much voyeurism and male gaze in this movie, which
is insane. Zeidler is thinking, I'm gonna watch the scene
have sex with the duke, and that's going to save

(01:02:17):
my business. I have a vested interest in this. She
is my employee or property or whatever terrible thing it's
going to be. Those other guys just assume Christian is
going to do a poetry reading, which is a weird
thing to watch, and then when they discover that it's
not a poetry reading, they're still on board to watch.
So I don't understand any of their motivations. Imagine if
the twist was Jim Bradman was watching the whole time

(01:02:40):
like that's such a wild Like oh yeah, Jim Bradman
is just casually surveilling me with his He always has
a scope because then he like always trying to read
like he sees what's happening, and then he's just like,
I have to go intervene. He's always watching what Setena
is doing because he does view her as property, property
and oh god, anyway. So also, Kylie Minogue plays the

(01:03:03):
Green Fairy, Ozzie Osborne plays the Green Fairies. Laugh, weird
way to Use Your money? Movie, interesting use of funds
and a new podcast. Shall we write, Yes, let's write
the movie on our nipple scale, where we rate based

(01:03:24):
on the movie's portrayal of women on a zero to
five nipple scale. I guess I have to give this
movie you one and a half two. I don't think
it fares very well about all. Again, I'm still I'm
still confused about this movie because I feel like it's
just like wild wackiness is like, oh, it's fun and

(01:03:45):
I like it. But at the same time, most of
the female characters are completely sidelined. Satine is treated as
property by almost all of the main male characters, and
while she does have some degree of agency where she
is making her own choices and pursuing her own love

(01:04:05):
story and things like that, she's often dictated what to
do by other men and isn't allowed to have any
sort of cathartic moment because she dies in the end
before she gets to do anything she actually wants to do.
And then, yeah, just like the depiction of sex work
is really complicated because I don't know, it's just a
really Hollywood eyes glamorized version of sex work that ignores

(01:04:28):
a lot of what sex work actually is. And granted,
you could say, like, oh, well, you know, this is
you know, fictionalized Bohemian turn of the century Paris version
of all of that where things were much different, but
I don't know, I just it just drives me crazy
when people have the opportunity in the platform, when they're
making a movie to depict something more positively and better,

(01:04:50):
but they're like, actually, instead, I'm going to make a
movie set a hundred years or more ago and then
appropriate the funk out of Indian culture. So cool. Yeah,
I think I'm going to give it a one and
a half. One nipple goes to Satine because she deserved
more and her story is told from the male perspective,
and I want to see her side of it all.

(01:05:12):
I want to see the story told from her ghost,
her consumption ghost. More like Boo Boo and My half
Nipple goes to I guess Marie because she's also very

(01:05:35):
much ignored for most of the movie. Yeah, I'm going
to give it a one, and not because I don't
like this movie. Again, it's that complicated thing we come
up against every time. But Settine is given some agency,
but never enough that she actually gets to make her
own decisions. Her a decisions are always informed by the

(01:05:56):
fact that she's dying and doesn't know it because men
won't tell her. Decisions are informed by the fact that
she is raped into realizing she should date Ewen McGregor.
Like just I feel like she has a kind of
a series of empty moments where it's like, oh, she's
realizing something. It has agency, but it's only because the

(01:06:17):
movie is telling her what to do at every single point.
So it feels like almost kind of like a hollow
sort of agency that she's given by the movie. Her
hand is sort of forced. Anyways, almost every time, the
depiction of sex work is certainly very complicated. Also, the
fact that we are we are in this really this
building full of women with different perspectives, and we see

(01:06:42):
none of them. I mean, we see Ninie Legs in
the air, who is very antagonistic and are are given
very little context for anything other than the fact that
Settine is being battled over by three or four different men.
Uh So, yeah, not not a progressive movie for women,
i'd argue, but it it's you know it. It's tricky

(01:07:06):
because I do enjoy it. It is a fun movie
to watch, but in terms of how it portrays anything
other than straight white guys movie affairs incredibly poorly. I
gonna give it one and I'm gonna give my nip
to Chakola. You deserve better, but you are great at

(01:07:26):
catching people. I'll go one and a half nipples as well.
This is nipple is not a word that I say
often in my life, and it's gonna just feel very
It's a very strange mouth feel to me right now
saying it into a microphone. But I agree with everything
that you guys said, and I know that the Times
movie came to me in my life and my perspective

(01:07:48):
with whatever my background is, means that of course I'm
going to find certain parts of it very enjoyable. You
and very You taught me how to sing very poorly.
And but yeah, it's not it's really bad at portrayal
of women. I had a different perspective on it until
I learned from you guys, because I went to the movie. Thing, Like,
Nicole Kidman is very capable in this, Like she's the
only one who seems like she knows what she's doing.
She's always improvising on the fly and like getting people

(01:08:11):
out of sticky situation. She knows how to like the
scene where she has what to do, where she's like,
the writer is just in love with me, that poor
penniless idiot we just needed for the show, and then
I'm going to discard him, just like you can do anything,
you're a politician, you can talk your way at anything.
You're You're smart and capable. But listening to this podcast
that we just did and just seeing how much of
her agency has been taken away by everyone, I agree
that past Daniel and calling my shot future Daniel and

(01:08:34):
we'll be wrong, humble dragon. But I'll give my half
nipple to Nicole Kidman because again, I think she's a
comedy powerhouse in this and nobody talks about it enough.
She was nominated for an Oscar for Yeah, that's great.
I don't know if this is against the rules or not.
I want to give my remaining nipple to the Lady

(01:08:55):
Marmalade cover that came out an association with this movie. Okay,
good because that song fucking bangs and there's like nineteen
women singing in that song and it's and it just
seemed like a very empowering, like it's just amazing, Yes
music videos video. I saw a tweet somewhere where someone
was saying, like, if that song was remade today, they

(01:09:16):
named three contemporary artists and then they were like, and
still Pink the fourth member. She is. It's you know,
you gotta hand it to Pink. She's got staying powers. Anyways,
that's the that's a good note to come. Dan. We're
happy to have been here to educate you and and
change your mind about everything, and and thank you so

(01:09:37):
much for being here. Oh thank you. I'm such a
huge fan of the show. This is this is a
real big day from here. Veryanks so much for having me.
Thanks for Mike's heart of course, I know, I'm I'm
a little drunk, so good. Yeah, um, is there anything
you would like to plug? Where can people follow you online?
On Twitter at deal b underscore I n C. I'm
currently trying to get Cardi bad and notice me. She

(01:09:58):
gave an interview recently where she talked about being obsessed
with presidents. I have published two books about presidents, Cardie,
I would love to talk to you and do a
podcast with you about presidents. Well, Cardi is our biggest fans,
so she will hear this. Yeah, you can follow checked out.

(01:10:22):
You can follow us the Bacto Cast and on Twitter
and Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website where you
can buy our merch. You can subscribe to our Matreon,
which gets you five dollars a month. Nope, it gets
you so drunk. We will get up from a mix harder.

(01:10:42):
And I think that what I just did was directly
informed by Mike's Harder. We are all disasters. Okay, you
donate five dollars a month to us and it gets
you to bonus episodes of the BacT To Cast every
single month, and it helps us out and then you
get extra content. Sounds good for you? On for you? Well,
I just want to say that my gift is my song.

(01:11:04):
I'm sorry, I don't I hope you don't mind. I
hope you don't mind that I put down in words
how wonderful life is now you're the word. Bye,