Party Girl with Liz Gotauco

On this episode, party girls Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Liz Gotauco go to their locial library to discuss Party Girl (1995)!

Follow Liz at @cosbrarian on social media and buy her book at www.cosbrarian.com/about-fcked-up-fairy-tales.html 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephynvest start
changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Jamie, you can't be a librarian. Your mother was a
woman with no common sense.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
What what is the Dewey decimal system?

Speaker 1 (00:29):
No?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I think the response of the titular party girl should
just be like, shut up, I'm wearing the greatest outfit
ever worn by a human person. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
Party Girls. My name is Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
My name is Caitlin Derante. This is our show where
we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. But what
pray tell is.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
That, well, I'll tell you. The Bechdel test is a
media metric created Queer Cortinez, Alice and Bechdel friend of
the cast. Our best friend, our BFF. We have talked
to her twice and she didn't yell so best friends.
So she Originally this was a one off joke in
her Wonderful Comics collection dice to watch out for has

(01:18):
since been adapted to a more mainstream, widely applicable media metric.
The version we use of the Bechdel test requires that
two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to
each other about something other than a man for more
than two lines of meaningful dialogue. If you want movies

(01:38):
that pass the Bechdel test, congratulations, you've come to the
right movie. Because we're talking about Party Girl today.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
This is so true.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Oh yeah, they're talking about libraries, they're talking about books.
They're talking about the Dewey decimal system, which is named
after a man. But the system is self a bad
man too.

Speaker 5 (01:55):
An incredibly terrible man.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Like really kind of like an all timer, shockingly bad man.
I was on the Behind the Bastards episode about, oh
about Dewey, like he's that bad, He's that bad.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
I had no idea. I didn't know research about mister Dewey.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
I think that that would be kind of overreach for
Party Girl. But but you can go to the Behind
the Bastard's episode because it is quite shocking. Oh, but
I think I think, let's say the Dewey decibel system
is a genderless entity. I agree, Anyways, it passes the
Bechtel test. End of episode.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Bye, yeah, No, we have a wonderful episode ahead of
us with a wonderful guest.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
She is a.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Librarian, storyteller, and debut author of the book Fucked Up
fairy Tales, Sinful Cinderellas, Prince Alarmings, and other timeless classics.
It's Liz Gotaco.

Speaker 5 (02:47):
Hello, everyone, so grill to be here.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Thanks so much for joining us. But before we get
into party girl, I want to hear more about your
book let the listeners know.

Speaker 5 (02:56):
Oh my goodness, thank you so much. It is a
collection of fairy tale for an adult audience, all retellings.
So they are fairy tales that have existed in folklore,
and essentially I'm just kind of reclaiming fairy tales and
like the lessons we can get from them and the
kind of bibliotherapy we can use for adults, because for
a long time, at some point people were like, fairy

(03:16):
tales are for kids, and we're gonna teach kids how
to be pious little babies with them, when actually there's
a lot of weird stuff happening in them. There's stuff
about our bodies, there's stuff about love, and sex and
family baggage that I like to bring into my retellings.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Awesome, that's so cool. Do you have a this is
maybe a boring question for you, but interesting to me.
Do you have a favorite fairy tale that you enjoyed reworking.

Speaker 5 (03:41):
Yes, I didn't do it exactly for the book, but
my favorite fairy tale is the Brother's Grim There from
one called aler Laira, And it's got an extremely fucked
up premise in that princess's father falls in love with
her and wants to marry her, and she rescues herself
from that situation with like three magical ball gowns that
she stuffed in a walnut shell on. She sure has
this big, like weird kitchen wench disguise, and she goes

(04:04):
to another kingdom and hides out until she can meet
someone who isn't her dad. Ah, And that's my favorite
fairy tale for some reason.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Wow, that there is in all the twists You're like,
that is ultimately somehow a relatable story for many just
hanging out waiting to meet a man that's not your dad, Like,
been there, been there, doing something weird while waiting to
meet a man who's not my dad. That was eighteen
years of my life. Well, I'm very excited to dig

(04:34):
into the book and very excited to have a real
life librarian on the Zoom call to talk about Party Girls.

Speaker 5 (04:43):
So we are flesh and blood.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
It's true, it's free and truly. Our bravest soldiers are librarians,
especially now, which I would also love to talk about,
but definitely. But first, what is your relationship with the
movie Party Girl.

Speaker 5 (04:59):
I I first saw it, I think right around when
I got my graduate degree, because I don't know, sort
of like write a passageway. You're a librarian now, and
you want to like see all the different versions of
yourself in like library media.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
Is this Is this like librarian, cinema cannon?

Speaker 5 (05:16):
Oh yeah, for sure, Okay, okay, awesome, and we can
we'll talk about it. But I actually think it's a
really it's probably one of the better like representations of
like an authentic library in movies. I didn't like totally
click with this one at the time. I think I
was a little bit of a judy when I was young,
believe or not. Now I've gotten older and I'm appreciating
more of my merry side of myself now.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
You're a party girl exactly.

Speaker 5 (05:37):
Yeah, because like we're seeing it again now in like
my forties with more like life experience. Uh, I just
like love it so much, so it's been really excited
to remiss it now with like fifteen years of librarian
ship under my belt and much better taste.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie?

Speaker 3 (05:57):
I only saw it for the first time earlier this year,
and like, I watched it on a whim as a
person trying to make my own indie feature. You're like, okay, Like,
what are what is the like s tier movie made
for twelve dollars? That's amazing, and this definitely falls into
that category. It came out in nineteen ninety five, for

(06:21):
it was made for one hundred and fifty thousand dollars,
which is absurd even in nineteen ninety five money. I
love that it was written and directed by a woman.
I know there's a male co writer, but I'm gonna
iconically not include him, and so I was just really
excited to check it out, and it fucking rocks. It's

(06:43):
so much fun. I feel like this is one of
the many characters Mary that has healed my relationship with
the bimbo stereotype. I think about bimbo stereotypes a lot,
and have in the last decade, mainly because of the
work of Sarah Marshall, a bimbo's champion, and not just

(07:07):
in terms of like reclaiming the term, but women who
are like sexually open are framed, are framed and demonized
so horrifically. This is something we know and made to
seem like not smart and not able to adapt and change. Bah.
And so I think if I saw this movie ten
years ago, I would have really chafed with Mary, similar

(07:29):
to you, Liz. Yeah, But seeing it now, it's like
I see the vision. And also because she's played by
Parker Posey, Parker Posey like gets it. I feel like
she just gets Mary to her bones and like shapes
her into this really beautiful character. I don't know, there's
so much And I love Mustapha, I love their I

(07:50):
love their weird, little horny twenty something romance. Like I
just yeah, there's, uh, there's lots to love about this movie.
Also that the directors know if it was her direct followup,
I don't know if I'm gonna get the name right.
Daisy von Schurler Mayer Daisy von Schurler Mayer, which is
a mouthful, and I celebrate that she later directed the

(08:12):
live action Madeline movie that I remember vividly.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Oh, I don't remember that at all. I haven't seen
that one.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
It was I don't think very successful. I just know
my cousin had it on VHS.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
But yeah, it stars Francis mcdormant as the nun from Madeline.
She is the I don't know if it's good. I
do know that it wasn't successful, and I also know
that I've seen it a lot of times and that
she is, like she's still very much working. She's almost sixty.
She's been mostly working in TV, but she like also

(08:47):
did recent episodes of like Yellowjackets. Like, she's very much working,
and I just think her career is really interesting. And
this movie rocks long way of saying, I like this
movie and I've seen it twice. Nice Caitlin, what about you.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
I had never seen this movie before prepping for this episode.
I remember you talking about it, Jamie earlier this year,
when you had seen it for the first time and
really enjoying it. I will say that I did not
connect with this movie quite as much nor the character Mary.
I love Parker Posey so much, but I don't know

(09:23):
something about some of her behavior. Just I was not
the biggest fan. I think there are things to like
about this movie, but for me, like I don't know,
some of its parts just didn't. It didn't all come
together for me. But uh, there's lots to talk about.
I'm very excited to discuss.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
Should we take.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
A quick break and then come back for the recap.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Let's do it, Okay, I'll play.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
It's a quick content warning here at the top for
attempted sexual assault that happens toward the end of the movie.
But we open on a party that's being thrown by
the party girl herself, Mary, played by Parker Posey. We

(10:20):
briefly meet some friends of hers also at the party,
including a DJ who Mary seems to owe money to.
We meet Mary's boyfriend, Nigel played by Leave Schreiber, but
soon after this the cops show up and Mary is
arrested and thrown in jail with charges like selling alcohol

(10:42):
without a license and possession of controlled substances. So Mary
uses her one phone call to call her godmother Judy,
who apparently bails her out. Because we cut to Mary
out of jail, ordering full of Full with hot sauce,
a side of bob aganoosh, and a seltzer from a

(11:05):
street vendor named Mustafa played by Omar Townsend, who is cute,
and they flirt a little bit. Then Mary goes to
the library where Judy works, so we meet Judy on
screen for the first time, and she is played by
Sasha von Schuler, who is director Daisy von Schuler, Mayer's mother.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Mary asks Judy for a loan and or a job
at the library, and Judy is reluctant to give Mary
a job, saying that she's just like her mother and
her mother had no common sense. But the library has
experienced budget cuts and Judy realizes she can hire Mary

(11:52):
as a clerk and not pay her very much. So
Judy gives Mary this job. That's how I got a
job at the Comptroller's Office of Massachusetts for these summers.

Speaker 5 (12:04):
That's hilarious. Word.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah, that's the only nepotism I've ever been the beneficiary
of the nepotism alive.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
And well in the public government system for sure. Yeah
that small, small, small public government.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Right. So now Mary has this job, but oh no,
she has to learn the Dewey decimal system.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
I just think this is such a fun hill to
scale for her because it is, well, Liz, it's confusing, right,
it is is it is.

Speaker 5 (12:34):
And for some reason, like the employees of this library
seem to know it down to like the twentieth decimal
decimal as well, which I have to say I do.
That's not the kind of library and I am there,
but it's it's one of those things where you get
like the broad strokes of it before you have to
get the nitty gritty, and they're kind of throwing Mary

(12:55):
into the deep end I think.

Speaker 6 (12:56):
A little bit.

Speaker 5 (12:58):
It takes a lot of a lot of training to
just be like a library page or a library clerk
who does the shelving.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, when I was in school, I think both like
elementary and high school, we would have like one class
a week where we had like library library, right, and
because I think like most children would not really go
to the library otherwise unless they were forced to buy
a class, So we would all go to the library

(13:25):
and we would learn the Dewey decimal system, which to
this day I still don't understand. I found it very complicated,
but we would have like tests on it and stuff
that's hard for.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
I feel like that's rare, yeah, because when we went
to library class, they were just like, please read a book.
Any book. That was sort of library class.

Speaker 5 (13:44):
Ours combined with like tech to a little bit like
with early like internet technology.

Speaker 6 (13:49):
Right, hmm.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
There should be I thought about this before. If you're
like this, it's so like niche, but there should be
just a bunch of interviews about what specific computer classes
were like a particular times, because early computer classes were
so fucking unhinged and bizarre like there. I feel like
I've definitely talked about this on the show before because

(14:12):
I think about it constantly. But we had like in
middle school, we had computer class and it would be
like you play a math game, you play a reading game,
and then you play a weird third game that was
about internet safety, and you're playing a detective and you're
trying to save a kid who talked to someone in
a chat room and is now being held hostage in California.
Like it was terrifying. It was just like meant to

(14:35):
scare you into never using a computer again, even though
you were at computer class. It was so weird.

Speaker 5 (14:41):
I don't even remember that type of stuff. I just
remember like bs and clang, Oregon Trail and like sending notes,
but with a computer until high school when I had
to take it and it was so I was so
fucking bored. I was like, well, I'm just gonna become
the best typiest in the world, and I am nice.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Well, part of my computer class was like a typing class,
and they were like, if you don't learn how to
type ninety words a minute, you're gonna fail miserably in
the rest of your life. And so I was like,
oh my god, I have to learn.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, my dad was really I never. I still type
like boink blank blink, but like ASDF, JKL semi, like
that sort of that style of typing, like I won't
I never. It's I don't know, like I think it's
like people with typewriters, or maybe it was a reporter thing.
I honestly don't know. But you keep your fingers if
you're writing, you keep your fingers on ASDF on your last, JKL,

(15:34):
semi on the other and then yes, you know, yeah,
but that's just I don't think that there's a single
person under fifty that does that. Now, probably not I
do you do you ASDF?

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, that's my default ASDF.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Wow, you were like raised write or something like, I
don't even that's not true there, you were raised differently, Yes, anyways, Yeah,
there's to the library. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (16:01):
I do think like the goal of like the school
library and these classes is so that like people like
Mary or whatever, you can become like a self sufficient
person in like locating information, not just like for school
but in general and life. And but it's just like
never works out that way.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, and Mary is kind of she's in over her
head with this library clerk job that she has just gotten.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
She's Parker poseying out about the Dewey decimal system.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
Again, all of those like shots of Melville Dewey's poster there,
especially like knowing what a dirtbag he was, especially like haunting.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
I know, I'm like, did day, I feel like Daisy,
we weren't. We weren't as a culture talking about the
crimes of Melville Dewey in nineteen ninety five. She didn't know, No,
she talked.

Speaker 5 (16:47):
I mean they do like briefly mention his sexism at
the end of the movie about true but not crimes.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, well, the crimes the racism of the anti sebotism,
like it's just every every way you could be a
bad person. He gave it a shot.

Speaker 6 (17:02):
We hate that, yep.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
So then we see Mary back at her apartment loft.
She lives in this huge Manhattan question Mark or whatever
somewhere in New York City loft, and she's hanging out
with her friend Derek, who is always talking about this
guy named Carl who he hooked up with but Carl
didn't ever call him back. She's also hanging out with

(17:26):
her friend Leo, the DJ we met earlier, who has
kind of moved in because he needs a place to
stay for a while. And she takes Leo to this
place called Renees, the hottest nightclub in town, because Leo
wants to spin at this club. So she's going to

(17:46):
introduce Leo to Renee, who we meet on screen.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
I'm so curious if there's any first of all, any
DJ is listed to our show, sccond of all, is
this an accurate portrayal of DJ. It's like, I, I mean,
Leo seems very committed to his crap, but I was
just like, I don't know, DJ is such a nebulous,
fascinating job. To me because you're like, what are you guys?

Speaker 6 (18:14):
What are you doing? Are you? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (18:16):
But it sounds and I feel mean saying that, but
like I've been to so many weddings and I'm just like,
it is you. You are curating the vibe.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
Yeah, but like.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
I also think that like nineties DJ, where you're like
literally standing records, very different. There's a joke about this
and pop Star Never Stops Stopping where I got a.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Cut for it.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
So good feminist canon. But so it's dormant Decom's character.
He plays Andy Samberg's characters DJ, and there's a joke
where he's like, yeah, like back in the day, I
used to actually like spin and do stuff as a DJ,
And uh now I just hit play on an iPod.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Leo is Leo is working?

Speaker 2 (19:02):
He is spinning?

Speaker 5 (19:04):
Yes, Yeah, he's creating a collage, a collage of vibes.

Speaker 6 (19:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Is it my personal vibe? Not really, but I celebrate it. Yeah,
and everyone around.

Speaker 5 (19:13):
Him seems to be enjoying it something.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yeah, right, you're like, Okay, I guess I must have
been a nineteen ninety five thing. People liked this shit.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah. Also, around this time, Mary breaks up with her
leaf shreber boyfriend Nigel, saying that he lowers her worth
because it seems like he drinks quite a lot and
he like maybe like pisses in public or something, and
she's like, you're a dirt bag. I'm breaking up with you.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Love that right, yeah goode.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Then at work at the library, Mary tries to get
the hang of things, but that damn Dewey decimal system
is really she's really struggling with it. Then she goes
to order more falafel from Mustafa and she tries to
chat with him in Arabic because because she has been
learning a few phrases specifically to be able to talk

(20:04):
to him, and he tells her that he used to
be a teacher back in Lebanon, but he's reluctant to
teach in the US because he feels his English isn't
good enough. Then he asks her on a date Friday night,
which she seems excited about, and we see her at

(20:24):
home doing a very offensive dance and singing thing. She's
being very culturally insensitive and that's how she's displaying her excitement.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Question mark.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
But when it comes time for the date with Mustapha
on Friday night, she blows it off in favor of
sneaking into the library and trying to figure out the
filing system, especially because we just saw Judy be raiding
her and again saying her mother has no common sense,

(20:59):
neither to you, and your life is frivolous. And so
Mary has been feeling especially inadequate and aimless, and so
she's trying to like improve at her library clerk job
and take pride in her work. But then we cut
to Mustafa, who is being stood up and he's really

(21:20):
bummed about it. Leo, meanwhile, has followed up with Renee,
the nightclub owner, and she has given him an audition
spot Friday night to spin, and he's really nervous, especially
after he sees a beautiful dancer named Venus, and he
messes up a little bit, but he recovers and he
does a pretty decent job the rest of the night.

(21:43):
The next day, Mary comes upon Judy as she's having
a hot flash, and we're like, okay, menopause representation in
media beautiful. Then Mary goes to Mustafa's food cart again,
but he's still her that she bailed on their date.

(22:03):
Neither of them directly addressed this but he makes a
remark about how she was dismissive of him, and she's
just like shrug, give me my falafel and baba ganush
and Seltzer please, and you're just like.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Mary, Mary.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
I mean I do.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
It is interesting rewatching this movie because I feel like
in there's issues issues with it that we'll talk about,
but there is like the low budget feel of like
the plot is kind of all over the place. I
feel like there's certain sequences where you're like, she's just
kind of twisting in the wind. I don't understand her behavior.

(22:43):
And luckily I really like Parker Posey.

Speaker 5 (22:45):
Yeah, I mean she's like so in the moment too,
I think, yeah, it was very like of her, not
even acknowledging that she blow him off, and she's like
very impulsive and it seems to be stuck where she is.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's like, you know, we see
her learn from that over the course of the movie,
but especially at that moment. I mean, that's that's a
tough one because you're like, Mustafa just like shared something
very personal with you, He like really opened up to you,
and your response is to do a weird racist stands
at your house. And then blow them off.

Speaker 6 (23:15):
What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Really?

Speaker 4 (23:18):
Any setting.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Then, at work, Mary is much better at her job
these days, but Judy still undermines her and compares her
to her common senseless mother, which of course frustrates Mary.
Then she bumps into Renee at the library, who thinks

(23:42):
that Mary is there for an AA meeting, which is
what Renee is there for. So she confides in Mary.
And then there's this weird joke. We'll talk all about
how Renee's alcoholism is represented in the like comic relief
that the movie's trying to do with it, but that's there.

(24:04):
Then there's a montage of Mary ordering falaffel from Mustapha again,
but he's not thrilled about her always coming around. He
has previously told her like, leave me alone, but she
keeps coming back. He tries to send her to the
gentrification falaffel kart across the street, and so we'll talk

(24:25):
about that as well, but she's like, no, I want
your falafel. Then Mary puts her library filing skills to
practice and organizes Leo's like over one thousand records by
a filing system akin to the Dewey decimal system, which
infuriates Leo because he already had a system and she

(24:47):
fucked it up. But she's like, no, no, no, my
system is better.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Here.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
I'll teach you how to use it. And then it
seems like he kind of comes around on it, and
so it was good actually that she interfered with his life.
And there's what I found to be a very bizarre
scene where Leo takes a shower and she's like, no,
it's my turn to take a shower. So she gets
in the shower with him without his permission, and they're

(25:13):
naked and then she kisses him. The consent here is
murky at best, just off the rails.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, and it really goes nowhere yeah yeah, and then
goes nowhere. Yeah. I wrote that I was just like,
question Mark didn't love it, Like it's so like because
it's really unclear what the movie thinks is happening, yeah,
and what the characters thinker is happening. So I'm like,
or if there's any precedent for this having happened in

(25:42):
this roommate relationship before, like, just nothing but questions. I
stand with what I said, which is question Mark didn't
love it.

Speaker 6 (25:52):
A fair assessment.

Speaker 5 (25:53):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (25:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Then we cut to Mary back at the library. Mustapha
comes in looking for information on becoming a teacher in
the US, not realizing that Mary works there, and she
helps him, and then they have sex in the library.
It's after hours at this point, so like they're alone,
it's not like they're doing it in front of other people.
But she forgets to close the windows and it's pouring

(26:18):
rain outside, and the rain splashes in and it ruins
several books, which enrages Judy. The next day, Judy also
sees like a used condom in the trash, so she
knows that Mary had sex in the library, and this
is when she goes.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
But she had a good reason, like I'm very pro
Mary having sex in the library. I actually have to.

Speaker 5 (26:42):
Say, as like a public librarian, I don't think I
would just automatically assume it was my coworker that had
sex in the library. Either in a public building, it
could be anyone's condom.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
That's true. Famously, anyone can go so it's very easy
to be like, it wasn't me, It wasn't It could
have been anyone in the city.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
So true, so true. I mean I guess to Mary's credit.
She cops to it immediately, She's like, yeah, I fucked.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Oh n it. So it's like, also, it is cool
that she fucked in the library, so why had it right?
It's like, you're jealous. I hear you, and I hear
that you're jealous.

Speaker 6 (27:15):
Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
And then this is when Judy has a monologue about
gender roles and women being underappreciated in the work they
do in libraries. Again, we can talk more about this later,
but the bottom line is Judy is furious and she
fires Mary from the library, and then when it rains,

(27:37):
it pours because Mary also gets an eviction notice, so
she's really having the low point of the movie. She
sells a bunch of her designer clothes to a thrift
store so she can make rent, and she's once again
feeling very lost and aimless. She doesn't know what to
do with her life. Mustapha consoles her and like as

(28:00):
he's embracing her, she looks around and she's like, hmm,
this would be a great place for a party. Cut
to she's throwing another party, one that is once again
very culturally insensitive and appropriative, and it's also her birthday
party because it's her birthday, but she's very stressed out

(28:22):
about like the logistics of throwing the party, and she's
lashing out. So Mustapha confronts her for being shitty to
the people who are helping her, and she doesn't like
being confronted. So to cope with everything that's going on,
she takes some drugs and they make her like go

(28:42):
off the deep end. She's like falling all over the place.
She says the f slur to her friend Derek a
bunch of times.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
She shared us Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Then her ex boyfriend Nigel pulls her aside and attempts
to assault her several times, but she's able to get
way and she goes into her building and passes out
on the stairs. She wakes up the next morning and
goes to the library to be like, hey, Judy, I
need to talk to you. Come over to my place

(29:12):
tonight at eight o'clock. Then Mary enlists the help of
a few of her former library colleagues and starts researching
places for Mary to go to grad school and study
library science so that she can become a librarian.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
I was like this, now the movie's becoming Kaitlin Cannon,
because higher education is becoming integral to the plot.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
She's trying to get a master's degree, but once she
gets it, she will never mention it.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like Mary
would be bringing it up.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
Yeah, honestly, that gets very librarian to bring up your
master's degree. So the difference between film world and library world,
I think in terms of graduate studies.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
As someone with again a master's degree in screenwriting from
Boston University, I would never mention my master's degree.

Speaker 5 (29:59):
So master's de grace from the University of her An
Island and I'm load, I'm proud about.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
It, and I uh am not in debt smart, very smart.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
So meanwhile, Derek and Leo are at Mary's place setting
up a second birthday party for her. This one's a
surprise party, and she comes home and they're like surprise,
But she is not as much of a party girl anymore.
She is now more of a library girl. So she
tries to break up the party before Judy arrives. But

(30:35):
Judy shows up and she's like, I knew it, You're
a frivolous party girl. There's a male stripper who's dancing
all over Mary while she's begging Judy for her library
job back.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
It's a very chaotic and just movie like they're it
felt like they were like, oh my god, we all
they have one day left to shoot. I guess we're
just gonna have to do everything that's left in the movie.
Everything just kind of happens. It feels very rushed. Yeah,
I kind of love it, like it's just yeah, very frenetic.

Speaker 6 (31:06):
Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
And then Mary's friends come to her defense and they're like,
she helped organize my records, she helped me research how
to become a teacher. And Judy is like, damn, okay,
maybe you are a library girl. And she gives Mary
her job back, and everyone celebrates and dances and parties because.

Speaker 6 (31:27):
You can do both. You can.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
You can the end, let's take a quick break and
then we'll come back and throw a party in the library.

Speaker 6 (31:38):
Who and we're back.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
What feels right? I mean, I sort of want to
start with what doesn't work about this movie, so we
can talk more about libraries and bimbos and stuff that does.
I think that, like, okay, so obviously there's a lot
of racial insensitivity in this movie that comes from our

(32:13):
protagonists who were supposed to love. Yeah, I think, like,
so this is a two white writers. There is this
co writer, Harry Burkmeyer, Daisy von Schirler Mayer is both
the writer and the director. So this is coming from
a white perspective. And I would be curious if she

(32:35):
spoke with anyone of a Lebanese background or just a
non white background at all when building out this story,
because I think that the character of Mustapha is thoughtful.
Asterisk for nineteen ninety five, right, which was mentioned when
this movie first came out, And there's a quote from

(32:57):
Daisy von Schurlermeyer. I'm just gonna say Dave Meyer because
that's what she uses now, but that people were complimenting
her her on like oh, you're your movie is so diverse,
and she says, no, that's the world. You don't represent
the world in your stuff. Why is your world so segregated?
I think the world is messed up and party Girl

(33:19):
is normal. So she's coming from like this comes from
an attempt to show New York as it is or
as it was when this movie is made, which I
think is like a very valiant and cool thing to do.
But because our protagonist is aggressively white, you could say,

(33:40):
I feel like when she was doing these all this
culturally insensitive stuff, she doesn't learn from it and it's
played for laughs, and so it just sucks like it
just yeah, there's.

Speaker 5 (33:49):
Just no if she had to reckon with that at
some point in the movie, it would be very different.
Because I know, I'm like an extremely white presenting woman,
but my father is Filipino, and so I think there
it's a pretty realistic actually to like feel like you're
honoring someone close to you their culture and to do
it in a completely misguided way. But obviously if you
present that and then never like reckon with it, then

(34:13):
all the wrong lessons are being learned.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
It's interest because I feel like the potential, Like I
don't know like a lot of things, and I know
that this was like a movie very much made like
Run and Gun style, but like it felt like there
was a lot left on the table with Mustapha's character
in general, because I really liked the like the story
we get with him. You know so much more about

(34:36):
him than you know about most people of color in
movies in nineteen ninety five, which is depressing, but like
you know, he is like a very sweet person, like
he wants to be a teacher. He has this ambition
that exists outside of our protagonist, which again rare, but like,
because Mary does not learn anything about her own cultural insensitivity,

(34:58):
it's like hard to her root for that relationship for
Mustafa because you're like, that sucks for him.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, yeah, because so much of what she is doing
is that white people sing of wearing other people's cultures
as a costume. Because we see again that scene where
she has like developed a crush on Mustafa and she
goes home and does that like bizarro like feels like
maybe she's mimicking belly dancing or more likely mimicking other

(35:29):
caricatures of Arabs that she has a copy of a
copy of a comedy, Yeah, precisely. And then there's the
part where she and Mustafa are supposed to go on
a date. She completely blows him off. She shows up
at his falafel cart as if nothing has happened. He's
rightfully upset and says something like, you seem to misunderstand

(35:51):
what's going on here, and it feels like you've you know,
you met a vendor who speaks funny English, and for you,
it's a holiday travel without buying a plane ticket, but
I can't agree with this, like can you go? And
she completely shrugs this off. She does not apologize, she
does not acknowledge her shitty, white privileged behavior. There's that

(36:12):
part where he tells her that he was a teacher
back in Lebanon but that he has like struggled to
become a teacher here, and she's super dismissive about it.
She's just like, well, why don't you just become a
teacher in America? Like what are you doing with a
falafful cart. She's also like pretty classist in the way
that she talks about doing any kind of like service jobs.

(36:34):
She's like, I am not a waitress. I will never
be a waitress.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Which I also feel like that I interpreted that as
like her coping, like because she is. I don't know,
there is like this Hollygo lightly quality to her where
she wants. She like has no money herself, but she
wants to appear wealthy, and so I feel like it's
like she I don't know, maybe I'm giving the character
too much credit, but it's not like she's above any

(37:00):
working class job, like she she needs work. It's like
she can't admit that to herself. Yes, for sure. So
I felt like a lot of her classes stuff felt
coping coded to me. I guess yeah. But the way
that she treats Mustava, I just I get it. Like
her character is supposed to be like careless and lost,

(37:21):
and like then she learns the Dewey decimal system and
that somehow solves everything whatever. But like I was repeatedly
bumped by, like you said, Caitlin, like that speech that
Mustapha brings, like he's very clear about like why he
is not okay with how she's treating him. He has
a detailed backstory, like it isn't as if the writers

(37:44):
are not thinking about him. They've like built a very sympathetic, cool,
unique character, So why is he treated so badly? Like
it's not played for laughs that he's treated badly. It
kind of just like happens. And there isn't like quite
the resolution or movement on Mary's part.

Speaker 5 (38:03):
So it's yeah, yeah, and I can't even tell how
we're how they're kind of hoping we're gonna feel about
it either, because right, I mean I certainly know, like
when she has her like Arabian Night's birthday party or whatever,
and she's like tokenies her boyfriend in his uniform and
is saying, it's funny, it'll be funny if you, you know,
build your full offel. Yeah, it just comes across as
so wild and I'm guessing maybe it's just supposed to

(38:26):
represent her kind of bottoming out, but it's feel terrible
for Mufasa that it never comes around later on.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah, I've just you're just like and then he like
sticks up for her towards the end, because that's what
needs to happen at the end of the movie. I
don't know, I just I've I've it felt like there
should have been a victory for Mustafa in the context
of this relationship where we see him stand up for himself.
It just kind of seems like everything that resolves seems

(38:57):
to happen in a way that we don't see or
is it kind of like YadA YadA, when I think
it's like very within the you know, ability of this
movie to like have those conversations with these characters, like
this movie can have uncomfortable conversations, and I just felt
like Mustapha kind of got left by the way side. Yeah,

(39:20):
in this in this way that feels like really gross
because we know this character, we love this character, but
like you're saying, Liz, like I am so unclear on
because white cultural insensitivity is so prevalent then and now
that it's like this is I feel like that kind
of insensitivity. This is like the tip of the iceberg

(39:41):
in the nineties. So it's like hard to watch in
twenty twenty five and really like understand what we're supposed
to be, Like, are we supposed to be offended and
embarrassed and upset with her in nineteen ninety five? I
genuinely don't know.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, the big problem here, as we've said, is that
things were resolve narratively, but we don't see any effort
on the part of the white character to unlearn her
racism or to hold herself accountable for it and acknowledge
it and apologize for it. Like, we see none of that.
It's just that they've made up. They've kissed and made up,

(40:17):
and it's nice. A very similar thing happens with what
appears to be commentary on cultural appropriation with the white
full Awful vendors who have a food cart across the
street from Mustaphas, and you can imagine that like their
food is not very good or authentic, but the white

(40:40):
people in the neighborhood are lining up for the white
people full afful that they put toothpicks in and stuff
like that, And I feel like Mary always going to
Mustafa's cart and not the like gentrification falafful cart is
supposed to be shorthand for Mary's cool and she can

(41:00):
hang and that's why it's quote unquote okay for her
to then turn around and throw like cultural appropriation the
party at the end of the movie. But anyway, so
throughout the entire movie, it's Mustafa resenting that these white
food vendors are making his culture's food and doing it

(41:23):
wrong and it's way more popular, like their business is
way more successful than his.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Which is like good commentary. So it's exactly yeah again,
so you're like this movie is able to engage with
these issues. But then there's like a clear point with
Mary's character where they just stop for sure.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
And then at the end of the movie this magically
resolves itself where suddenly no one's going to the white
people full awful cart and it's no longer popular and
everyone is instead lining up at Mustafa's food cart. But
we don't know what changed or why it's just this
sort of magical resolution that happens without again anyone learning

(42:01):
anything or.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah, it does feel like sort of like oh no,
the movie has to end, like.

Speaker 5 (42:07):
Yeah, and it's like a short movie. It feels like
there's like a cutting room floor full of scenes that
maybe want to filled some of this in.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
I mean also just like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
They may have just been like we can afford to
shoot for ten days, and whatever we get on those
ten days ends up beating the movie. But like I yeah,
I again, it's like I'm glad that that wasn't dropped,
but like you're saying, Caitlin, it was very just like
happy ending in a way that like doesn't engage with

(42:38):
the clear commentary that that conflict was introduced with. So
it's like yet another thing that it's like it's set
up in a way that you're like, oh, this could
be really interesting, but then it's either like dropped, forgotten about,
or just like tied up in a very weird neat

(42:59):
bow and just like yeah, going back to the relationship
with Mary Mustafa, because it seems like whatever these conversations,
well whatever the resolution with their relationship happens mostly off screen.
You do sort of like leave with the impression that
and I think that this is like again, another common

(43:20):
thing that this movie should be commenting on instead of
just doing, is like she doesn't make any movement on
her cultural insensitivity or covert racism or overt racism. So
if at the end, if Mustapha is choosing to be
with her, like, what choice do we have but to
think like, okay, so he's just compartmentalized that and said

(43:41):
I accept her like I will not demand more of
my partner, which is like a very like he deserves better,
he deserves yea better.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
I also want to talk about the black characters in
the movie, who are very much either secondary or tertiary
characters whose interior lives we know nothing about. The few
who we learn by name, Each one has some thing
that is not handled well. Starting with Wanda. She is

(44:19):
the library clerk who Mary works with, and we see
her now and then we don't really get much of
a sense of her and Mary's working relationship. Then there's
a scene toward the end where Mary grabs Wanda by
the scruff of her neck and like slams her into
a bookcase and says something like, you're gonna help me, bitch.

(44:42):
Cut to Mary is making Wanda and some of her
other colleagues like research grad school for her, So it's
just like we know nothing about this character. And then
we see like Mary being violent and aggressive towards her,
so that's not great we have. This feels like another
example of Mary temporarily adopting a culture that she doesn't

(45:07):
belong to to seem like trendy or whatever. But we
meet this character when Mary goes to Renee's nightclub. Natasha
is black and queer, and Mary gets up and sort
of like dances with or next to Natasha, but it's
mostly just Mary's standing there as Natasha is voguing, and

(45:31):
once again it's just like Mary, like ballroom culture is
not yours, Like what this is not for you?

Speaker 6 (45:38):
What are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (45:40):
But that's also just like a thirty second scene, and
then we never see Natasha again. Then there's Howard, who
is a librarian who we also don't see much of
until the scene at the end when Mary is trying
to figure out how to go to grad school. We
learn a little bit about how Howard feels regarding like

(46:02):
libraries and academia and stuff like that, but it's a
very quick scene. We don't get much else from Howard.
And then there's Venus, the dancer at Rene's club who
vibes with Leo. Again, we don't learn much about her,
but there is this random beef between her and Mary

(46:24):
at the party scene toward the end, where Venus says
to Mary like, could you move your cigarette is bothering me?
And Mary replies very antagonistically, like get a last name
and then we'll talk. And it's just like, what is
this random? Like do you even know each other? Like
why are you being so antagonistic toward that?

Speaker 3 (46:46):
I was like, this feels deleted, scene coded or just
straight up like bad. Improbably it was weird, weird, weird. Yeah,
I think that like that is like a consistent thing
throughout this movie where they're trying to capture this very
diverse party scene that existed at the time in the
locations where that was happening, but they are not giving

(47:10):
focus to the characters that make those parties what they were.
So it's like it feels like you get a very
surface look at New York queer culture, at ballroom culture
at all, of these scenes that existed at the time,
but you really just see them in a brief flash
in a way that makes Mary seem out of place,

(47:32):
and the characters, particularly the black characters, seem very like
there and gone. And again it's like, even with the
way that they had to make this, like why not
have a full character. If you want to have like
show this party scene, if you want to have ballroom

(47:53):
within the movie, then give us a character, give us
two characters, even although you know two is usually too much,
too much to us. Yes, but yeah, I think particularly
with black characters, it started to feel like it was
a repeating thing. And again, this movie was like praise
for its diversity at the time, and unfortunately probably it

(48:16):
did look more diverse than most movies at the time.

Speaker 5 (48:19):
Well it structured funny too, because like similar to m stuff,
I think like the first impressions you get at these characters,
it's exciting, like you see black, queer people. Right from
the beginning of the movie. You see two black librarians
and a career that's very very white, and so I'm
inclined to say, yay, I'm excited to dig into this more.
And then nothing happens with them, yeah, or poor things

(48:41):
happen with them.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, there's the facade of diversity because you see black characters,
you see queer characters, you see immigrant characters, you see
a Latine character. With Leo, who is played by Ghirmo Diaz.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
He's been on every TV show on the face of
the planet. His IMDBA is Wild.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Weeds, Girls, Law and Order, Scandal.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
Like, etc. Every TV show that's all of them.

Speaker 5 (49:08):
That's the best kind of career I think, to have
just to be everywhere.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
It is pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
But yeah, there's what appears to be a diverse cast,
but the inclusion and characterization of many of those characters
isn't particularly meaningful or thoughtful.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
The cultural insensitivity towards Mustafa is the most egregious because
it seems like their heart is maybe not in the
right place. With how Mary's characterized, it does feel like,
you know, in terms of like, I don't know, there
are moments where it's like this movie's biting off more
than it can chew. If straight white woman has to

(49:46):
be at the center of it, I want to say,
it does seem like the director's heart is in the
right place. She wants to show a wide swath of
New York culture, but like she kind of can't with
the story she's created. It's a bummer. And and also
like you see so with with with other characters, you're like, oh,

(50:09):
this would this is this is a whole other movie.
You know, like there are certain stops at certain clubs
where you're like, let's stay I wish we could stay here,
could we get you know?

Speaker 5 (50:17):
Yeah, she knows so many interesting people. Yeah, but they're
kind of just there to make her interesting and you know,
let's be bad.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah right, Yeah, they're there to service her character more
than be characters themselves.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
In terms of stuff I like about the movie, I
do like, Okay, so we have a messy, unlikable New
York girl protagonist. I'm a sucker for that. I like that.
I mean, she's, amongst other things, very twenty three years old.

(50:49):
She doesn't know what she wants to do. She's in
denial and defensive about just about everything. She has anxiety
about being around older women, which is a very interesting
dynamic that I don't think that I like understood about
myself when I was in my early twenties, where like

(51:11):
a lot of older women to her are cautionary tales
rather than people to talk to, and so I just
like part of what I think her dynamic with Judy
is very interesting that I think is like a strength
of the movie where they just do not get each other.
They're projecting like nobody's business at each other, and I

(51:34):
don't know, I think it's like a cool even though
both of these characters are pretty broad in the way
that they are painted, like everyone in this movie is
very broad, but there was more nuance in their relationship
than I was expecting, honestly, and I appreciated it.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
This is not really a criticism, but I was just
curious about how Judy is Mary's godmother because Judy and
Mary's mother were friends once upon a time. We also
learned that Mary's mother passed away.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
Right, which is like an element of Mary's character that
you goes kind of under explored, but you're like, oh,
she also like lost a parent very very young, and
like Matt, can have no other family that can lead
to party girl tendencies and like looking for community outside
of family in YadA YadA.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
But the thing I was curious about is like Judy
does not seem to respect Mary's mother at all, so like,
why were they friends? And why did she agree to
be Mary's godmother?

Speaker 3 (52:31):
I was so curious if that was a seed that
was cut or something, because I do again, it's like
that's a weirdly specific detail that like completely informs how
she treats like she's she's like getting out all of
her anger at this woman who is no longer alive
by tormenting her daughter while also feeling responsible for her.

(52:53):
And like that's a really complicated dynamic.

Speaker 5 (52:58):
Yeah, there seems to be something heavy maybe that happened there.
I mean that we know that like this one died
in a dui. Yeah, so maybe there's there is some
kind of grief that she's trying to process and and
that's the reason why she's sticking around with Mary book.
But again we're we're we're Philly and Blanks.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yeah, it's and it's like a very complicated specific dynamic
to be Philly Good Blanks for as an audience, because
it did. I think, like similar to Mustafa, we get
way more detailed than I would have expected for Mary's mother,
where you know, most movies you sort of get like
Disney Prince, like you know, they're like she died when

(53:37):
she was young, and that's why she's weird. Now, Like
that's the story of so many young women in media,
but this is, like, we know, it's a very specific,
tragic circumstance, and Judy is taking it out. I mean,
I don't know, poor Jewe. I feel for Judy and

(53:59):
also can be so judgmental and cruel and like she's
really she's.

Speaker 5 (54:04):
Like painted her picture of Mary and it's it's hard
to see her getting out out of it.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, And that's and you know, that provides for a
nice arc at the end where Judy kind of finally
loosens up and she's like, yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
My god, daughter.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
She's a party girl, but she's also a library girl,
and the two things can be true at once, and
so here's your job back.

Speaker 5 (54:27):
Yeah, And we do get like an element of Judy
seeming like she like regrets some kind of loss of
her youth or whatever in that scene where they meet
up on the bench and she's having the hot flash,
because she does kind of imagine like, oh, I know
what your night was like so care free and sow
this and so that, And I do wonder if there's
like a longing there in addition to her sort of
dismissal of that lifestyle, but.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
She also says something like, you know, I know you
have so many friends, because at one point Judy like
extends an olive branch and says like, would you like
to have dinner with me? And I forget who else,
maybe it was like the librarians and clerics and stuff.
But Mary's just like, no, I'm going out, and Judy's like,
oh where, and She's like, I don't know yet. I
just know that I'm not going to dinner with you.

(55:11):
And so they're both dismissing each other and it you know,
there could be a generational component to it.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
There could be just tell also very like they have
a very mother daughtery kind of antagonism about them too,
like yeah, I I'm glad you brought up the du
I think because it also ties in this movie. Another
thing that this movie like tackles with specificity but also
dismissal at the same time, which is like addiction and alcoholism,

(55:39):
where if I'm putting myself in Judy's head, I understand,
I mean, it doesn't justify the cruelty and the judgment
which also does just objectively does not help. But like
her anxiety at seeing her friend's daughter who died in
a dui, you know, going out to parties all the time.

(56:00):
I understand that, like core, Like, it's not this is
not a character who's written in love, Like she's just
jealous and she hates young women without context and blah
blah blah. It's like we know the reasons and she
is like not able to quite see it or acknowledge
it or I don't know. It's like this combination of things.

(56:20):
And then you have the is it Renee Renee at
the club owner? Yeah, And and the way her story
is treated sort of undercuts that.

Speaker 5 (56:28):
It's just I don't know, Yeah, it almost seems like
they were setting up these like two maternal figures in
a way, and one of them is sort of on
the path that her mom was and the other one isn't.
But then again, we don't really get to know her
name other than small bites, right, So it's.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Just another question mark don't love it moment.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
And again, just to briefly go through those beats with
Renee and just reiterate that she's someone who is dealing
with an alcohol addiction, and that is played as a
comedic beat almost every time. It's brought up where there's
like the whole misunderstanding in the library and Renee thinks

(57:09):
that Mary is there for an AA meeting, and so
she walks into the meeting with Renee and everyone there
is smoking cigarettes, and so Mary's coughing, even though we
also see her smoking cigarettes, so it seems like she's
a smoker, So like, why are you coughing?

Speaker 3 (57:24):
I don't know, it's whatever it but and it's like
it's so like it's like pick a Lane is like
are you playing for laughs or not? I mean not
that I'm like just play it for laughs obviously, Like
that is an insensitive like that's whatever. Why so much
comedy age is poorly But it's so weird that it
happens that there is like one track in which there

(57:45):
is like an unusual amount of nuance and another track
where it's just the total opposite.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Right, Yeah, Because the way that scene culminates is everyone's
smoking a cigarette. It's causing Mary to cough a lot,
and then she says, I need a drink and then
she like runs out, and it's probably that what she
probably means is she needs a drink of water because
she's coughing. But the joke is, oh no, this room
full of people who were there for an AA meeting

(58:13):
thinks she's about to fall off the wagon and go
get a drink of alcohol for sure, for sure, Haha,
isn't that funny? And then later on at the Mary's
birthday party, like the surprise party, Renee is there and
she thinks that Mary's on drugs and she keeps being like,
oh no, what are you on? Oh no, you're hitting
rock bottom. Oh my god, and her concern for Mary

(58:34):
is once again played as a joke, because the whole
thing is like she's misunderstanding what's going on, and isn't
that funny. She's really overreacting. So the way all that
was handled was like really bizarre to me.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
It is weird. I wanted to I don't know, like
the amount of So this is Daisy Byer's or Dais
Mayer's first movie. She directed it when she was twenty eight,
I think, which is offensive to me, but I did
want to say she I Once I learned more about

(59:09):
her background, I was like, oh this is I mean,
first of all, she was whatever, like yes, but like
a very particular kind of nepo baby that I think
helps you understand why she chose this story. So first
of all, she is like, you know, not not like
she is Mary, but like sounds like she probably has
experiences similar to Mary, where she is like had financial

(59:34):
worries but not really because her family was fine, did
run in these crowds, which is why she was able
to get access to so many iconic spaces for her
movies because she was calling in favors. But also that
she is in fact the daughter of kind of an
iconic party girl. She is the daughter of an actress

(59:55):
and comedian Sasha von Schuler who plays Judy, who plays Yes.
So it's like there is like a party girl legacy.

Speaker 5 (01:00:03):
Oh Judy was the party girl. Yeah, I mean in
real life.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
It's kind of cool where it's like Sascha von Schuler
was like a big time flapper and like art girl,
and I just I thought that was cool. It's like
that they're the first of all that they like collaborated.
You're like, I don't know, it's so rare to find
a Neppo baby story where you're like, you know what,
I'm okay with this. It's it's like when I see

(01:00:27):
Margaret Qualley, I'm just like, you know what, fine, I
like it. I like it. I like that sort of
generational thing. Other random stuff about this movie that make
it very nineteen ninety five. This is the first movie
that premiered on the internet, question mark yes, what Yes?

(01:00:47):
And that like who knows how much electricity it took
for that to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
They could only the transmission was limited to black and white,
so it wasn't even in color. Yeah, I read this
to I'm pulling from, of course, scholarly Journal Wikipedia.

Speaker 6 (01:01:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:03):
The movie did.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Have a theatrical release, I believe, But yeah, it did.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Well well or made its money back, premiered at Sundance,
made its money back.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Yeah, but yeah, it had an Internet premiere and was
the first movie.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
To do so, which is kind of cool. I don't know,
just everything about it is so nineties. Its strengths are
very nineties. It's weaknesses or very nineties. Its message while enduring.
I think it's very nineties because it's kind of like
girl powery feminism of like you can go to a
party and read a book, which is a lesson I like,

(01:01:45):
but very much a lesson of its.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Time, you know, and to get into the library of
it all. And Liz let's go to the library.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
In foremost, Yeah, let's get into library and representation. There
is that like Judy's feminist monologue about well, she starts
out by berating and more or less slutshaming Mary. Judy's like,
don't fuck in my library. Quit behitting so stupidly in
you know, like diminishing your potential, and blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Then she says Melville Dewey hired women his librarianes because
he believed the job didn't require any intelligence. It was
a woman's job, quote unquote. That means it's underpaid and undervalued.
And then she goes on a rant about like literacy
rates and people watching movies instead of reading books and
how that's disgussting.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Which is a very generational vibes. Yea, but I liked it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
I liked it was fun monologue.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
The last thing I wanted to say about Sasha von
Schuler is she was, you know, kind of objectified pretty
heavily in her early life, in her party girl days.
But in the eighties she got her masters in social
work and then worked for over ten years at an
AIDS treatment center in Greenwich Village. So we have just

(01:03:08):
like I don't know. I'm I'm I'm chalking it up
as good NEPO, good NEPO mother daughter collab.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
But but Liz, tell us, what tell us your thoughts
on the representation of library librarians. Yeah, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (01:03:25):
I think Judy toes the line of like stereotypical librarian
a little bit are like old school librarian, but not totally.
She never shushes anyone, which is revolutionary for that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
I was shocked because Mary storms in all the time,
screaming and no one ever says.

Speaker 5 (01:03:42):
And you know, her ideas about TV and stuff. Everything
she says about Dewey and his added toward towards woman
is true and has like larger implications with like women
in librarianship. Even though it's like a female heavy field.
You know, there is a big pay gap between men
in the field and women in the field. I when
I think of Dewey and what he thought of women

(01:04:04):
in the library, I think of him as as unfortunately
starting the sexy librarian trope in a way because he
wanted to hire women, because he wants to look at
beautiful women while he worked. But libraries are really definitely
one of those feminized job that in that it's a
service job, in that it's a provider job. Everything Judy
feels about it is right. There's a level that we

(01:04:26):
want to like uplift the job past that, but also
I don't know, it's like wrapped up in its legacy
a little bit. Yeah, but you think she's a good
I think she's a pretty good character. That to me,
what I see when I when I was watching Party Girl,
with the librarian ship of it all, is something that
kind of minicked my path was that, like when you
become a librarian, it becomes like your entire thing, Like

(01:04:48):
I'm a librarian now, and it like infiltrates your life.
It's and it's hard to like separate being a librarian
from yourself from yourself. And I do think Judy is
stuck there a little bit. And I do wonder if
the sequel to Party Girl is Library Girl, when like
she's trying to reclaim some of that of her old
self that Mary's lost because she goes full librarian by
the end of the movie. She's like, no fun tights,

(01:05:11):
put the hair up, put the glasses.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
On hair and a type on glasses.

Speaker 5 (01:05:15):
Yeah, I'm a new person now. Yeah, And that feels
true true to the career as well.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Interesting, Yeah, I want I want more librarian movies and like,
are there okay, here's another not to put you on
the spot, but are there other movies that, like to
this degree, are in librarian cinematic canon? Like, are there
others that people are like, Oh, if you're a librarian,
you have seen this movie, whether you like it or not.

Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
There's not a huge amount of librarian representation, and I
think that I think in some ways every library in
the librarian and media is like you love them and
you hate them because they're either like super kind of
a superhero.

Speaker 6 (01:05:59):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:06:00):
I think of like Buffy or like Rachel Weissen The Mummy,
where we kind of hold them up here. But there's
a very different part of being a librarian, which I
do think they kind of do in Party Girl, where
it's it's not a it's just an everyday job. I mean, like,
it's a public building, You're going to clean up shit.
At some point, it's you, people scream at you. And

(01:06:20):
which is the face that you don't see in in
the movies as much so to me, I like part
of her for that reason. There's also a great Australian
show called The Library or Librarians. I think that, like
the very first scene of it is the library director
scraping like shit out of the drop box, and I
was like, wow, this is but you know, we also

(01:06:43):
love our little superhero librarians because well who doesn't lie.
I feel like their job is a little is a
little bit of a superhero job heroic.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
Yeah, especially, I mean I want to see I don't know,
because there is a world and this is like where
I'm this isn't a criticism, this is just like wow,
there are so many different ways this that this story
could have gone, or like other fun library based stories
where I feel like this movie now would be like
basically just fighting against a library's closure by a fascist government.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Yeah, I have to like put on a big benefit
show to save the library.

Speaker 5 (01:07:22):
She has to throw a party.

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
Yeah, you have to throw the like library rave or
whatever to save the library. But I was, I just
think it's funny. I mean, it's like I get I'm
sure that it like helps keep things like appropriately low
stakes in a way that it's like okay, we could
shoot that. But her main struggle as a library and
being learning the Dewey decimal system was very funny to

(01:07:45):
me of just like how both high and low stakes
it is at the same time.

Speaker 5 (01:07:50):
Yeah, I do think that there's something too like her
learning this like organizational system is like how she's going
to put her a life in order, because I do
find sometimes that when outside life is like chafing me,
if I go to the nonfiction section and reorganize it,
I'm like, well, at least I can fix something. Yeah,
And so you know, librarian is maybe the perfect job

(01:08:11):
for Mary in this journey in that regard, and you
see little glimpses of it in her after her outside
life too, with like her like fashion organization and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Her gen onto that right. I missed that the first
time I watched the movie, but on my second watch,
she gets frustrated with her friend Derek, who's like messing
up the order of her genes that she had very meticulously.
She's like, they're in order and he's like they're just
jeans and she's like, yeah, they're jeans and they're in order.
So she already like they planted that organizational skill in

(01:08:45):
her early on, and it was fun Parker Posey, So
this movie, you know, made less than a million dollars
at the box office when it came out.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
But it sounds like.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Parker Posey's I like, this is like when is her.
I'm trying to figure out was this before? Was this
like firmly in the middle of her like art house
girl era, or was it like one of her because
she she'd already been dazed and confused? Okay, post dazed
and confused, Parker Posy got it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Was this maybe one of her first like starring roles
because she has a baseball part in that movie.

Speaker 6 (01:09:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah, Anyway, it's become a cult classic. The point is
many people now are familiar with this movie and love it,
and people will approach her. Librarians will approach her who
are fans of this movie, and they tell her that
Party Girl made them want to be a librarian.

Speaker 5 (01:09:37):
That's very cute.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
That's so sweet. Definitely, that's really sweet. Yeah, And then
I mean, I feel like we don't even really need
to say this. Parker Posy iconic.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
I'm wearing my Josie and the Pussycats shirt right now.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
One of the movie ever, one of her best, along
with like any Christopher guest movie She's in net for sure,
like she's just so good. I don't really love the
White Lotus, but fun performance. Anyways, I always forget she's
in that she well she's just in one season.

Speaker 5 (01:10:12):
Yeah, and the New War season.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
Yeah. I don't know. Did anyone else have other stuff
to touch on for Party Girl?

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
My last thing is really quick. There's a part where
Judy and Wanda are training Mary on the Dewey decimal
system and they're shaming Mary for being dyslexic and being like,
you're so bad at learning this system. You have dyslex together,
like being really awful about.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
It, which does feel also very nineties for sure, Like
I was like, casual ableism for learning disabilities feels very
nineties for.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
Sure, very reflective of real life at the time, and
also still today. It's something that maybe someone could have challenged.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
No one does.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
It just goes unchallenged. And again that's also you know,
like things going unchallenged is also representative of real life.
But when it's a movie and you can like decide
to include something or not include something, you could just
have what a Howard walk by and be like, hey,
don't say that.

Speaker 5 (01:11:18):
Yeah, Howard seems pretty cool, right, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
But he's also is he I forget what his whole
deal is. He either hates or likes public libraries.

Speaker 5 (01:11:29):
He's My impression is that Howard is a public librarian.
He's the one who says to Mary that, like, it
doesn't matter where you go to school, like, just try
to save money and get done as quick as you can. Right,
So to him, I think he's he's definitely more of
the people's librarian, whereas like the collegiate librarian there, who's like, well,
first of all, you went to Columbia, right, you know,

(01:11:50):
she's representing the more elitist librarian for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Yeah, And she's like, I hate living in a city.
It's yucky. I want to live in a small town
western Massachusetts or something.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
And you're just like, well you should. It's much cheaper.
Like anytime someone's like I'm trapped and it's really I'm like,
get the fuck out, like you, there's no, it's really
expensive to live here.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
Yes, yeah, but that's all I had. Yeah, anyone else?

Speaker 5 (01:12:17):
Oh I don't think I have the Nathan else.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
No, Yeah, yeah, that's all I got. This movie does
pass the Bechdel's hoast. We said that in the opening
of the episode. But but how does it fare on
the one true metric, the Bechdel Cast nipple scale.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
Yes, where we rate the movie on a scale of
zero to five nipples based on how it fares examining
the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I think maybe
like a three something like that. It has some some
very nineties elements to it, as far as the white

(01:12:58):
protagonists over racism, which.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
Mostly played her laughs.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
She does not make any movement on precisely other things
of that nature as we've talked about. But I do
appreciate that you do have like mediocre woman visibility, or
like woman who's figuring shit out visibility, and like not.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
Entirely likable visibility.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Right, Like, she's kind of a fuck up in some regards,
and that is relatable. So you know, she we see
her getting into trouble, we see her being aimless, we
see her being eventually good at her job, but being
really bad at it at the jump, so you know, again,
just sort of like relatable life things.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
So I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
I'll give it three nipples, and I'm gonna give I mean,
Parker Posy, she simply must get one, but I'm gonna
give my other two nipples to the I kept calling
them the upa lumpa guys. Two guys who were wearing
the green wigs or they have like long dyed green hair,
and I feel like they were wearing orange. I'm not

(01:14:07):
sure if they were, but I was just like color
scheme going on.

Speaker 5 (01:14:10):
They were like Thing one and Thing two vibes for.

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
Me, okay, okay, yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
So I was just like, who are these people? They
show up in random scenes, we know nothing about them,
but I was like, those are my oomple lump of friends,
So they get two of my nipples.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
Uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna meet you at three. That
feels That feels right?

Speaker 6 (01:14:30):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:14:30):
For this movie, I really enjoyed this movie. I feel
like it is like such a cool I don't know,
I just I'm really into watching first Features right now.
This is a really cool one. I love the mother
daughter collab. I like, I think that that's really fun.
But the the the shortcomings of this movie, especially as

(01:14:51):
time goes on, are quite glaring, particularly with I'm just
like justice for Mustapha. I really hope that he truly
just sort of soft ghosts her after this and moves
on with his life. Gets his teaching degree. Maybe they
reconnect as friends down the line. Who knows. I just
want better for him, but I also want the best
for Mary. I hope she continues on her journey. Like

(01:15:13):
it's hard not to have a soft spot for this
character because she is such a fuck up in a
way that like it's hard not to root for. Yeah,
I guess. Yeah, I'm gonna go three nipples for all
the reasons we've discussed. You gotta give one to Parker Posey,
I'm gonna give one to Daisy Mayor, and I'm gonna
give one too Gear Modiaz as Leo because he was

(01:15:35):
really hauling boxes of records everywhere he went, and it
just seems like that job used to be much harder.
So shout out to that characters. Yeah, what about you, Liz.

Speaker 5 (01:15:50):
Okay, Okay, I think I'll join you in the three
nipple ranking. I agree with yeah, everything you said. I
actually think the sort of be flawed woman is across
the board. Every Field character has her ups and downs,
which I do love that, and I do think the
library representation is great. I'm going to give a nipple

(01:16:13):
to Mary, I'm going to give them to Judy. I'm
going to give one to Renee, who I really hope
had a better day than any datest movie. I just
try to live her live, run the hottest club in
New York. But I would like to take a step further,
if you will allow it, and I'd like to take
Melville Dewey's nipples away from him. And I'd like to
give one to Wanda and one to Howard.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
That's great love that, Oh, yes, and yes, I would
like to give honor all of my nipples honorarily to
the Bastards. Episodes about Melville Dewey, if you've got the
stomach for it, pretty pretty brutal stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:16:47):
It's tough to listen to, but it's a good episode.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
It's a good couple of episodes. Judy didn't cover the
half of it, all right. So that is Party Girl
nineteen ninety five. Happy birthday to Party Girl, Liz. Thank
you so much for joining us, Thank you for having me.
This was the light bol absolutely. Where can we find
your work? Where can we get your book? Tell us everything?

Speaker 5 (01:17:10):
You can find me online anywhere you're online at Cosbrarian
co O S B R A R I A N
and you can get my book Fucked Up fairy tales
wherever you most like to buy books. Hopefully you're local Indie,
certainly you can request your librarian to stock it in
their library or wherever the hell you want to buy
a book.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
Please get mine, Helly, Please, congratulations on your book.

Speaker 5 (01:17:35):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):
And you can find us in all the regular places,
mostly Instagram at Bechdelcast, and of course you can follow
our Patreon aka Matreon. Five dollars a month gets you
two bonus episodes every single month, as well as a
backlog that goes back over two hundred episodes at this point.

(01:17:57):
If you're running out of main feed stuff where you
want to just hear us kind of goof it off
even more than we do on the main feed, head
over there and check out the Matreon great community of friends.
And when you come to our live shows, you get
a free button unless we run out, and then we
give you a normal button something else. Yeah, just a
little peek behind the curtains.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
Yeah, and with that, should we order some falafel with
hot sauce, a side of babaganooshe and a seltzer.

Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
That actually sounds really good right now?

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Yeah? All right, let's go.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Bye the Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted
and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by
Sophie Lichtermann.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them? That's
Me and our logo and merch and all of our
artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever Heard
of Her? Oh My God? And our theme song by
the Way, composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash
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