Promising Young Woman with Sierra Katow

Today's episode covers Promising Young Woman with special guest, Sierra Katow!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Jamie and Caitlin here, we just wanted to
give a quick content warning. At the top of this episode.
We are talking about promising young woman today, UM, and
so there's gonna be a content warning for UM sexual abuse.
There is uh we which we tried our best, but
there are obviously some descriptions UM that take place within

(00:20):
the movie. And we just want everyone to take care
of themselves. Yes. Indeed, on the Bell Cast, the questions
asked if movies have women in them, are all their
discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism
the patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the
Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My

(00:44):
name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus, and this
is our podcast where we discuss movies that you won't
stop asking us to cover from an intersectional lens and
then sometimes movies the you know, in the case of
the Human Centipede, for example, that um no one asked

(01:05):
us to cover. Are you sure about that? I would
check the numbers and I think there was a good
to three hundred to three hundred thousand. Yes. Our listenership
is just astronomical and just really wanted to know how
we felt about um feminism in The Human Centipede spoiler alert,

(01:26):
it's perfect. So it's a feminist masterpieces, as you heard
on that episode. But today today's movie falls into the
category of um. Our listeners were relentless to the point
where I was like, I don't want to do it,
and then it was like, well, we we're doing it.
We're doing it here, we are the Betel cast, and

(01:49):
and and so we we um. We analyze movies using
an intersectional feminist lend, jumping off from the Bechdel test.
But what is that, Caitlin and Way, Well, gee whiz,
I'm happy to tell you. It is a media metric
created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel
Wallace Test, that, for our purposes are little version of

(02:13):
the test um. Two people of a marginalized gender have
to have names, and they have to speak to each
other about something other than a man for a meaningful
conversation is what we're going with these days. Sure, so
some movies do it with ease. Others simply have never

(02:38):
thought of the concept of women of people talking to
each other I'm sick to even think about it really truly.
So yes, that is that's the show. Um. Today's episode
is Promising Young Woman, which I understand why we got
so many requests. Yes, a lot to discuss, yes, but

(03:02):
also I'm mad at all of you. It's it's a
very challenging movie. Um. And we have a guest joining
us that we're delighted to have. She is a comedian
actor writer. She voices a couple of characters in Riyah
in the Last Dragon. She's a writer on Close Enough
on HBO Max. It's Sierra Coudo. Hello, Hey, thanks for

(03:28):
having me. We're excited to be here. We are so
excited to have you. So normally we do like, what's
your like history with this movie, but since it's such
a new release, I guess tell us you're just kind
of like general notion of the movie, general thoughts and
feelings surrounding it. Sure. Yeah, I mean I think I

(03:52):
I really liked it. I had just watched it, like
without knowing anything about it, which was, you know, kay
of a lot to take in obviously, because it's like
if you don't know the cover that the cover of
the movie is like girl with like kind of pastel colors,
and I don't know, you know, I was just like, Okay, interesting,
I wonder what this is gonna be about. But like

(04:12):
Carrie Mulligan and like the fact that, you know, it
seems to be nominated for a lot of stuff that's good. Um.
So then I watched it, and then I watched it
again almost like the next day, because I was so
um yeah, I was just like so intrigued by it
and the fact that, um, you know, I guess movies
with those heavy topics sometimes you've got to watch it

(04:32):
again just to be like, oh wait, I gotta catch
what everything, you know, what was going on? Because now
I know what it's actually about. So so yeah, nice,
um Jamie, what about what about you? This was this
is honestly, this was a tough movie for for me.
Not because I think it's not good. I think it's
very good. Um, and I really enjoyed, uh well enjoyed

(04:57):
maybe isn't. I didn't enjoy watching this movie either time
I watched did. I had a really horrible time. I
just uh, yeah, I I this is like a movie
that hits very close to home for me in a
way that is like just tough I don't know. I
tried to kind of prepare myself going into it and
made sure I had like a clearish idea of um

(05:17):
of what was going on, but it was, I don't know.
The first time I saw this movie, it was at
a drive in for some reason. I mean the reason
was COVID but also horrible movie to see you to
drive in. Uh. And and it just like it truly
did like trigger a lot in me. I I don't
really want to get too too into it, but I

(05:39):
like had an experience with campus assault that is not
identical to promising young woman in any way, but but
a lot of the dynamics at play were very similar,
and it seems to have happened around a similar time
ish that the reference thing. It just the specificity with
which it it just it was really hard. H So
by the first I finished watching the movie, I honestly

(06:02):
had no idea if I liked it, didn't like it
or anything. I just was like really affected by it,
and it like really fucked me up. And I texted you, Caitlin,
and I said, I do not want to cover this
movie on the show. Like it just was so I
don't know, like, and I it's even I don't I

(06:22):
still have this like tiny edge lord inside of me
that is like, don't say triggered, But that was the response.
It was like it just sucked me up for two
days seeing this movie and just brought up all these
um old bad feelings, you know. And but but after
a while it was like, you know, I've I think

(06:42):
it's been like two months ish since I first I
saw it, like pretty close to when it was released,
and I, you know, it just like seems like, okay,
you know what, the requests aren't going to stop coming.
It is Uh, it is an important movie, you know,
an important current movie, I think, and um, Sierra is
like I couldn't think of a better guest to talk

(07:04):
about it with. And so yeah, going back through it
this time, UM, I feel like I experienced it as
a as a viewer and not as like a person
trying to keep their brain in check. And yeah, I
have a lot of thoughts. I will say that if
you haven't seen this movie and this is like a
triggering topic for you, like definitely tread lightly. I kind

(07:28):
of wish I knew a little more going into the
first thing, or I wouldn't have For example, seen it
at a drive in or even seen it with another person.
You know, it's it is very sensitive stuff. And if
this is like a topic that is particularly difficult for you,
take care of yourself. I wish I had taken a
little better care of myself the first time. Yeah, but

(07:49):
there's so much to talk about, Caitlin, What's what's your experiences? Yeah,
I had a similar kind of reaction to the movie
in the sense that I did not enjoy myself while
I was watching it. I recognize that it's a good
movie that is like well crafted and tackles a lot

(08:13):
of important things worth tackling, But I I just I
was very challenged by it regarding like some of the
things that happened in the story. I also found it triggering,
and I I don't want to watch it again. I'll
say that that's a trick. Yeah, It's like the kind
of movie where it's like, I love it, it's important.

(08:36):
I never want to look at it ever again. Um,
but I would. I would hope that just based on
what I've you know, gathered about um Emerald Vanelle question,
we may never know, shrug, But based on what I've gathered,
like around her interviews, that does seem like something she
wouldn't have a problem with. I don't know, Like, I

(08:58):
think she's so cool and like so gutsy and brave
for having made a movie like this, and the performances
are incredible, Like I really really like it, but I
never want to watch it again because just one of
those things. I'll listen to the soundtrack, great soundtrack, got
a good great soundtrack track. Yeah, I feel like I

(09:20):
I listened to a few interviews about it with her,
and um, I think that was also helpful because it
kind of was like, you know, certain decisions that they
that she made honestly like her talking about it. Yeah,
I think was like, oh, this is a good way
to like unpack this without having to like relive through

(09:40):
the scenes or any of that totally. And like, so
this movie is. It was originally supposed to be theatrically
released in I think April, which obviously we got quite
about this movie years ago. I remember I was talking
about this like late, like it's going to be good,
and I like I had seen the trailer like what

(10:03):
felt like dozens of times, and I was like, oh,
like this is going to be so good and I'm
gonna love it and I don't. I don't. I don't
know exactly what I was expecting, but it didn't quite
match up with what the movie ended up being. Caitlin. Okay,
a huge spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie,

(10:24):
but like, did you not expect perhaps for the protagonist
to be brutally murdered at the end of the movie,
Because I certainly did not expect that. I will say
I did not expect that, And again that's not even
a criticism. I think that that is like an incredibly
like not cool, you know, all things considered filmmaking choice.
But it was like I was expecting, like revenge movie

(10:47):
where where she wins. I was also expecting that, you know,
one of those I actually, well, okay, like does that
is a tough word like that to know. But I
think what I appreciated about that ending, and I think
this is something I also appreciated more when I heard
Um the director talk about it, is that it made

(11:07):
because because it is just so sad, it feels the
most realistic, just from my own perspective that it's like, yeah,
sure I would love to I don't know, I guess
have revenge in these situations, but I just don't do
that because I out of safety, you know. And then
I think that like sometimes when the revenge does happen,

(11:30):
that makes me almost feel worse because I'm like, well, god,
I guess I should just do that, you know. But
then obviously this kind of clarifies like, Okay, I think
we're doing this out of survival if we're letting it
go or not even letting it go. But you know
what I mean, Like I think it did show that,
like this is kind of another way that these outcomes

(11:51):
can happen in movies hopefully, right, um, But yeah, so
I don't know if it almost kind of like presented
another way. I guess also speaking from a survivor's perspective myself,
I guess it does feel like, you know, the relationship
that I have with that is like, well, I guess

(12:12):
I don't know, maybe I could have done more to
prevent this, right, And so then I think that kind
of was like okay, or or that could end very badly.
We don't have a lot of choices, you know, Yeah,
we don't have a lot of like options here. So
I kind of appreciated it for that, even though totally brutal,
what actually went down in the scene right just like whoa, um, yeah, yeah,
I I totally hear you. And it's it's one of

(12:34):
those endings where in the movie Parallel, I'm coming up
with I really hope that someone could think of a
better one. But um, just a movie in which, like
there is this quest that like an oppressed characters on
and at the end they lose. It doesn't necessarily mean
that that is like not it may it may not
mean it's an empowering story, but it doesn't mean it's

(12:57):
not an important or impactful story. And fortunately, when I'm
thinking of as Rosemary's baby, and that's not great, but
that that you know, if you think about like Rosemary's
quest to overcome this, she's met with only obstacles, and
at the end she fails in that quest, and it's
like she is crushed under the pressure that she's been

(13:18):
you know, pushing against, and that I feel like it's
like a similar thing that happens to to Cassie. She
does everything she possibly could do and it's just it's
too much, like it's too much for one person. Yeah,
the movie I kept coming back to is like a
comparison was Thelman Louise, let's go with that. But I

(13:40):
don't think your example is bad. I think like they're
major similarities between all of these types. But it also
just goes to show that we need more stories about
this that explore different coping mechanisms, different outcomes, different ways
in which trauma is dealt with, and so that we

(14:01):
just see a wide variety of possibilities, because I think
there's there's like a tendency to assume, oh, well, if
this has happened to you, if you're a survivor, here's
the way to do it, here's the way to deal
with it. So and it's never just a like one
path that anyone's going to take, you know. So the

(14:21):
more and again, I don't necessarily want to watch all
of these movies all the time. Here's the twelve movies
you asked for, Kalin, but there is a need for,
you know, just different explorations of this story. Yeah, And
so that was that, and I know I know this,

(14:42):
we're we're structuring this episode slightly differently, but it's just
there's so much heavy ship even before we talk about
what happens in the movie. Um, something that was like
sticking out to me and the way that this movie
was reviewed was there was a lot of speculation on
like whether the protagonist Cassie, who is on this you know,

(15:04):
perhaps disorganized revenge mission, but like, but but this protagonist Cassie,
um if like is she a good person or not?
Which I feel like is not something that we ask
of like male revenge protagonists. And so there were I
I have a few quotes that I can bring up
later in the episode because I just don't care to

(15:26):
scroll at this moment. But but yeah, just a lot
of speculation on like well, like in this revenge movie,
you know, she's not like a perfect you know, she's
not the perfect person. And it's like, yeah, when have
you have you ever said that about like a movie?
Like what do you just even? I don't know. It's

(15:47):
it's so interesting too because it's like this movie he
literally just came out and you still see those like
to me, they just like feel like bizarre questions to
be asking, and they're a little pointed and like, oh,
this person seek revenge is not completely pure and but
so fucking what like since when is that the promise
of a movie like this? Like it's just such a

(16:10):
bizarre even like premise. I don't know truly, Yeah, I
hadn't seen those and then well, I mean this is
something we can also talk about. But you know, there
was that critic who deservedly got a lot of backlash
for who like wrote that review in Variety being like, well,
Carrie Mulligan wasn't pretty enough to play this character, and

(16:33):
like for that to be criticism in a major publication
that is happening in the years draft that you get
rid of, sir, Like, that's that's not a publishable thing
to say. Oh god, um, people's reactions. Uh still need
work things, so um anyway should I I'm going to

(16:57):
do a kind of shorter, less detailed, more condensed version
of the recap just in the interest of keeping things
kind of tight. Um, we just don't want to like
talk about this movie for two and a half hours.
We could, but in the interest of everyone's mental health,
we're not going to wait. Jamie Pitch, remember how we

(17:20):
did a nearly three hour episode on the Santa Claus three. Yeah,
I don't see why we can't do the same thing
for that. Here's my other I've just got, Uh, Santa
Claus three is good for your mental health? What about
that two hour episode on Flubber? What about that three episode? Wait,

(17:45):
Santa Claus three? Is that the one with Jack Frost
that you are correct? Thank god? So scared I was
gonna get that wrong. Um, then of course you gotta
do at least an hour and a half on that
Jack Frost. Good, then your get Okay, So here's the recap,
and um, just trigger warning for this recap as well

(18:07):
as what I imagine will be a large chunk of
the discussion. Trigger warning of rape and sexual assault. Okay,
So we meet Cassie. That's Carrie Mulligan, who routinely does
a thing where she goes to a nightclub pretending to
be very drunk. She waits for a man to come

(18:30):
over to her under the pretense of helping her. Um brody,
but yeah, we warrant dating. It is Seth Cohen. When
he inevitably takes her home and tries to take advantage
of her, Cassie drops the act of her pretending to
be drunk and teaches him a lesson. We see her

(18:51):
do this with a few different characters throughout the movie. Um.
Early on, she bumps into Ryan played by Bo Burnham,
a former classmate of hers from med school, which we
learned she dropped out of. He asks her out. They
go on a couple of dates. He brings up Med school.

(19:14):
He wants to know why she dropped out. He mentions
a couple students that they used to be classmates with,
including Madison McPhee and al Monroe. Thus begins Cassie Kathy
Mulligan carrying out Cassi. Cassie Mulligan first simplus City Cathy
Mulligan her carrying out a revenge plot cassying out Cassi.

(19:44):
It's okay, we all make mistakes. Um. What had happened
is that Cassie's best friend Nina was raped in med
school by Al Monroe, which led to her dropping out,
which led to Cassie dropping out, and which eventually led
to Nina's death right which we don't fully know yet. Yeah,

(20:09):
we don't fully know. So this revenge plot includes Cassie
teaching a lesson to Madison UM, who's played by Alison Bree.
She didn't and still does not believe, you know, the
circumstances of what happened. She didn't believe Nino when she
came to Madison for help. Cassie then teaches a lesson

(20:31):
to the dean of the Med School Baby Connie Britten.
Character actors are out in this movie also a lot
of comedians or comedic actors especially, and like the guys
who were played or who were cast to play like
the creepy men. Yeah, I mean Sam Richardson fedor Sam Richardson,

(20:53):
what a moment? What a moment? Indeed Coke adult Christopher
Min's plassy, Oh yeah, make oven. How's a scene of
like it's almost like I always wonder if I wonder
if she's spoken to this. It almost seems like Emerald
Vanelle like cast all these familiar feeling faces in all
these roles of like people that you knew from like

(21:13):
the two thousands and early two thousand tents, and you're like, oh,
I know this person, I trust this person, and then
it's like, guess what they are horrible. Um Cassie teaches
a lesson to Dean Walker, who had dismissed Nina when
she reported the crime to her. Um. Cassie also goes

(21:34):
to the lawyer played by Jamie It's Al for Molina,
al f Molina. His scene is two minutes long, but
the impact is I'm like, was he on set for
three hours, We don't know. Probably we can imagine it
was maybe a day or two. Um, but his impact,

(21:54):
you know, as always, I mean, honestly I have opinions
on the way his characters treated, but but you in
terms of was the performance there, the pathos he's on
his knees, honestly, Okay, if there, If I had no
context for what this movie is about, seeing Alfred Blena
open that door and be like, I've been expecting you

(22:16):
is a dream I've had. I want you to someday
knock on his door and he opens it, and you say, Alfred,
it's your day of reckoning, which just means that it's
just the beginning of your and his romantic relationship. And
he says, I've been expecting you, and it's like, oh
my god, this is great. And then once inside it

(22:38):
goes much differently. Yeah, of course. Anyway, so this lawyer
is the one who defended al Monroe and who bullied
Nina until she dropped her case. And Cassie's goal with
all of these things is to get these people to
reframe their thinking regarding assault and victim blaming and believing women. Meanwhile,

(23:03):
Cassie and Ryan are getting closer and falling in love.
There's a Paris Hilton stars are blind song about it,
which I almost forgot existed, but we but it's important
that we don't forget. And so I'm glad I was there.
I mean I was glad to be reminded of it. Yeah.
Then Madison comes back and gives Cassie a phone with

(23:28):
a video on it of Nina being assaulted um something
that had been sent around to the various like med
school classmates. After this assault took place, Cassie discovers that
her boyfriend Ryan was one of the people watching this
take place. She basically blackmails him to get information on

(23:52):
where Alman rose bachelor party is, which she goes to
to enact the final piece of her revenge plot, where
she confronts al Monroe for what he did to Nina
and him not wanting his reputation and life to be
ruined by this, he attacks and suffocates Cassie to death.

(24:17):
He and his friend a k a. Max Greenfield get
rid of the body together, but Cassie anticipated something like
this might happen to her, so she had arranged for
the evidence that she had to be sent to Alfred
Molina's character to report it to the police, which leads

(24:37):
to al Monroe being arrested for Cassie's murder. And that
is how the movie ends. So let's take a quick
break and we will come back to discuss and we're back. Um, Sierra,

(25:00):
is there anything in particular you would like to start
with or we can we can kind of jump in
from any which angle. Oh um m m oh. I know,
maybe we could talk about like the sort of easter
eggs along the way of knowing that maybe Brian was

(25:21):
not this good guy, or just talking about the concept
of like the good guy that they kind of played
with in this movie. Oh my god, I that was
like one of the things I liked the most about
this movie was like the deconstruction and sometimes it's a
little heavy handed, but like the deconstruction of the of
the nice guy is not something you see very often.

(25:45):
I don't think this is the first time we've seen it,
but it's it's definitely not something that happens often in
a movie that gets a ton of like acclaim and
and like is given a lot of positive attention. And
we've talked about this on the show a lot of
how like when when um, I don't know, but I
mean there's like two things that play here. The first

(26:05):
is like when there is an assault on a woman
in a movie, you know, very often it's by this
like it's a stranger, it's stranger danger, or it's like
someone who is like who in an average male viewer
will definitely not see themselves in. And it's like the
whole like twisty mustache, like pure evil villain that is

(26:27):
like unrecognizable to anyone, or just like huge musclely guy
that's like a henchman or whatever it is, right, and
then and then also the fact that the woman is
assaulted becomes her like the only thing about her. But
what I what I like about this movie a lot
is it takes a lot of different like very like

(26:49):
specific examples that are like, oh, god, of of guys
that think they're nice and have been conditioned to think
they're and I but have also been conditioned to mistreat
women and you know, assault them and do different degrees
of abuse and manipulation and exerting their authority over women

(27:14):
while still thinking they're nice guys. Like it's so frustrating,
but it's so well written. I thought, Yeah, I have
to say that the first time I watched it, I
did not see Ryan like the reveal that he is
an absolute piece of shit. I do not see it coming.
I was like, oh, and maybe it's just because I

(27:34):
like bo burn him a lot, But I was like, no, boh,
don't be like that, which I think that just means
that that character was handled really effectively. Um, because like
Jamie you were saying, and we we have talked about
this a lot on the show, although I think we
it comes up more in our like Matreon Patreon episodes

(27:57):
than in the main feed. But um, there is this
tendency to paint characters who are abusers and predators as
being so cartoonishly evil that no one could possibly recognize
them or see themselves in them. So when you present

(28:17):
a character like Ryan who is like goofy and funny
and endearing, then you're not expecting him to end up
being like a rape apologist. UM. So I thought that
was effective the way that character was handled. But then,
like you said, Sia, in terms of like those little

(28:38):
easter eggs, those little hints to get planted along the way,
I honestly like did not fully notice them until I
rewatched the movie, and I was like, Oh, he's kind
of stalking her. He's not taking no for an answer,
he's wearing her down. And he's also like constantly anytime
these guys come up, are like they're not that bad,
like which I that was like her really stuck classic

(29:01):
al right right, Like and anytime al comes up, it's
like this. I don't even know if there's a word
for it or a phrase for it, but it's like, oh, yeah,
that's not great, but also it's not that bad, like
this weird like wishy washy, Like I don't want to
deal with this, I don't want to have the conversation,
so let's just move on. Anytime they come up, Yeah,

(29:23):
that that really stuck out to me. On a second
watch too, it's like, oh, yeah, he doesn't like he
doesn't think anything of how these these guys act. Yeah,
even like him saying even the way he addresses it too,
it's almost like he does kind of um, he knows
something's going to come up, so he gets ahead of it,
you know, he's kind of like, oh yeah, I mean,

(29:43):
those guys can't get rid of him. It's almost like
he has to apologize for just like hanging around them,
so you know something's wrong, but it's like it's the
way that oftentimes guys talk about their problematic friends. You know,
it's like they know something's up, but there yeah, like
you said, not willing to deal with it, so getting
ahead of it by sort of minimizing it right away
and then being like, but you know that's him or whatever. Yeah,

(30:06):
it's it's so like, I don't know. The second watch
of this movie was, I mean, you really start to
not like Ryan very much. He is like and it's
it's frustrating because I mean but I think like he
is like as funny, like not funny because they are
like being really sexually aggressive, but in terms of like

(30:26):
the specificity and the humor of like the Adam Brody
character and the mcloven character who we see earlier in
the movie being kind of like these just pompous asshole
guys who feel entitled to having sex with a girl
that they don't think is going to remember. Um, which
is you know, like I mean that very much fits
into this um this narrative. But in Ryan, you see

(30:51):
like someone who yeah, like the movie fully gets you
to to root for. I mean, I fee like the
bow burn of casting that was really smart because you're like, oh,
he's it's both Burnham, they're falling in love. And also
like you want I mean that's like one of the
really like gut wrenching things about this movie. For me,
it's like you you want Cassie to have that, and

(31:14):
like you like, oh, it's so awful when it's like
it kind of like on on this watch was like, oh,
I guess, like ultimately I don't know exactly what the
movie is saying. I don't like whatever I but but
like the fact that you know, Cassie very clearly deserves,

(31:37):
you know, to have a you know, fulfilling connection with somebody,
and and then when she does become vulnerable, and when
she does trust herself with someone, it turns out to
like reinforce her original viewpoint of the world, which was
that you shouldn't trust anybody, and that like there there

(31:57):
is just such a wide degree of complet a city
that no one is safe no matter how much you
want that connection, and it's such a like it's weak. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
gets start fast, yeah, because Cassie is engaging in some
pretty self destructive behaviors. She's you know, consumed by the guilt,

(32:26):
she feels the trauma that was inflicted upon her friend.
She's bearing the brunt of some of that trauma. I mean,
obviously this movie has an agenda. You know, it's a
condemnation of rape culture. It's it's commentary on victim blaming.
Like these things are all clear, But then the takeaway,

(32:50):
I know, I'm similarly like, well, I guess it's like,
you can you can stand up and fight the abusers
and the rapists and like the larger rape culture and lose.
There's a good chance you'll lose. Well that, yeah, but
you did get him legally apprehended, I suppose, so I

(33:13):
saw that as a win a little bit even the
justice was served, but at the expense of the lives
of two women, which doesn't feel great to me, right
right sure. And also it's like, once a guy like
al is in custody, is he really going to be
prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Of course not,
We've seen how those trials play out. Yeah, he's a

(33:35):
rich white guy. He's gonna be like, he will probably
go to you know, probably he'll probably be incarcerated for
for a while. But will he you know, learn anything
or be held to held to task for real. No,
that like the I mean, but also I think that
it is like kind of an like when I say that,
I don't know what the takeaway of the movie is,

(33:57):
that's an unreasonable expectation coming from me, is like why
didn't Emerald Fanelle, one person give me the solution to
conquering rape culture? Doesn't have that? None of us fucking
have that. And so I I, Sarah, like referring back
to what you were saying earlier about like how unfortunately,
like what happens to Cassie is like a realistic outcome.

(34:20):
It's not cathartic, but it is you know, like it
was clearly a very likely possibility to the point where
she recognized that and had planned for that, which also
was just like such an oblique thing that she went
into this knowing like pretty good chance. I don't get
out of this alive. I mean, And and maybe that

(34:42):
is the point is like you know, it's not a
one person job. It just isn't. And there's not like
one brave hero who is going to kill rape culture. True,
it's just I mean, yeah, it was just not I
think for me, it's like it's more of just like

(35:03):
a personal preference thing than anything else, in the sense
that I think I just have such like negative, dark
thoughts and feelings thanks to my depression and anxiety that
I just really struggle with with movies that have such
a bleak ending, and I, um, I think it's just

(35:26):
it's like, I'm glad this movie exists. I think it
does a net positive for the world, but I'm like,
I don't know if this is this is not for me.
I don't need to see I don't I already know
this stuff. So it's like I want men to watch this.
I want like I would argue that this movie is
you know, is good and I'm glad that I watched it,

(35:47):
but like it's it's it's kind of frustrating because I
feel like like we are made to be the target
audience of a movie like this when it's like, no,
this is like love it, but like I know know,
like it's like people who who don't know it should
should be the you know, the target audience for that movie.
But also you know, people who are not the target

(36:10):
audience are notoriously difficult to get to watch the movie,
but difficult conundrum I totally agree with you, Like I,
you know, I think that for this movie to have,
you know, the like to really act out the the
agenda that it very clearly has, It's like, yeah, the
Micklovin's of the world have to watch it, you know,

(36:32):
and like be made uncomfortable by the behaviors they see
in themselves that are reflected in these characters, and like
and in the Ryans of the world, like I'm an
amazing guy. I have grown as a person. But also
like how do you reckon with your past? And that's
like something I really appreciate about this movie. And and

(36:52):
also like I don't dislike the bleak ending. It like
makes me fucking so sad, but I don't dislike it
um and I like how many for the most part,
I do like in terms of like how this is
kind of targeting a very particular area of rape culture too,
which is also like, I don't know, I feel like

(37:14):
anytime there's a movie like this that comes out around
a large, pernicious issue that is never discussed in movies
like rape culture, it's like this one movie has to
speak for all of it, which is impossible. This movie
is like very much in the like subcategory of like
campus rape culture, and and I do appreciate the different

(37:39):
perspectives it explores around that specific area of rape culture
of you know, like in through Ryan and Madison, you
have people who are viewed as like generally good people.
They're not supervillains. They're navigating the world, you know, normally,
but they were okay with this. They didn't do anything

(38:01):
when they had a chance. And what is an appropriate
punishment for that? What does an appropriate penance like? I
don't have that answer. And then with Connie Britten, you
have like these escalating crimes of Like with Connie Britten's
Dean character, you have like someone who was in a
position to do something about it and didn't because she

(38:24):
wanted to be quote unquote fair and she had internalized
misogyny and all this boomer lady baggage that we see
in her. And then we get up to Alfred, and honestly,
I'm sorry, I feel like I'm talking I just with Alfred.
I feel like he gets off a little easy in
this movie because he has he is at the top

(38:45):
of the crime thing. It's like the whatever, I mean,
you can feel anyway about it. I don't know how
we feel about it. But it's like Cassie very much
does approach anyone who negatively affected this situation as equally
deserving of punishment, regardless of the severity. But Alfred Molina,
I feel like it's clearly the worst of the bunch,

(39:06):
Like he was the lawyer who got al off at
the expense of aggressively pursuing to like take down Nina,
Like that is such a huge trauma, and yeah, like
an adult man's bullying like a teenager or a young
woman who had been assaulted, Like there are levels here

(39:28):
at play where it's like no one wants to say
that they were the bystander that did nothing in the
way that Madison knew and like clearly knew and did nothing.
But then you have Alfa Molina who profited off of
aggressively doing something, And I don't, Yeah, I guess it's
I'm still kind of processing that of Like it's tough. Yeah,

(39:52):
the movie frames that where he's so wrecked with guilt
to the point where like he can't work anymore. But
it's like and like begs for forgiveness. He feels bad
so and then she grants him forgiveness, and I'm like,
I don't really care if you feel bad. Yeah. I
also don't believe that that kind of person would feel bad, sure,

(40:14):
because it was like multiple cases that he supposedly, you know,
his law firm did right right, like in the past
two even when he was like, we used to have
to dig through the trash, No, we just have to
find a drunk photo and social It's like, so you
were pre social media doing this like for decades, like Jesus, yeah,
you should feel bad, you should feel really bad, right yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(40:38):
It's like a just not believing that somebody in that
profession would even have a compassion or feel anything. Sorry,
not not law lawyers at large, but just like in
his specific case. Um. And then also I guess like, yeah,
maybe her her revenge. I mean thing, it did seem
like she was very forgiving overall, you know, I think
she it was the miss directive like whoa, is she

(41:01):
like doing something really really bad to these people or Okay,
But then we slowly find out, oh, she just wants
like regret and like that's all she's asking for. That's
pretty low stakes, you know, yeah, totally. And it's like,
but if you don't demonstrate that regret she's going to
have you assaulted, like the I mean the like I

(41:21):
saw some critics kind of like being like but her
practices are bad, which is, you know, not untrue. But
I don't even really want to touch that here. I
just in general in terms of the clear I mean,
they're literally there's five people like kill Bill Style who
are on her list of people that she particularly thinks

(41:43):
had a negative impact on on Nina's case. And yeah,
I mean it's I guess, I don't I don't dislike it,
but they they're I don't know, I don't know that
Alison briefing was tricky for me on the first watch,
But I think that that is also kind of personal
where I don't like, that's the sort of thing where

(42:06):
I feel like it's it is a kind of survivor
to survivor situation, where like I had friends and people
in my life who did not were not inclined to
believe me or help me in any way when things
were going on that over time I was able to
find some empathy for and some forgiveness for. But that's

(42:29):
also not everybody's situation. And then also it's like you
have to keep in mind that this is not Nina
enacting revenge. This is Cassie enacting revenge on behalf of Nina,
which which is why I kind of I liked that
at first in the like the Molly Shannon character, which
is like, there's another comedian in this movie who plays

(42:50):
Nina's mom who you know, kind of tells like Cassie,
like you need to move on, like this isn't helping me,
It isn't helping Nina. You're you're just kind of acting
in this really self destructive way and like please move on,
which is like, well, that's the point where you need to,
like her mother told you to kind of you know,

(43:11):
and I don't know. I mean, that's that's like the tragedy, right,
is you don't know what Nina would want in this situation.
She's not there to tell you, and so Cassie's kind
of guessing what she might want. But a lot of
that is enmeshed in her own guilt, in her own problems,
and and so any of the revenge enacted is kind

(43:33):
of like there's all these levels to it because it's
not like this happened to me and I want revenge
for it. It's like this happened to my friend. This
is what I am guessing she would want, and also
I would want for it. It's just like it's so
messy and complicated when you get the sense that like
she was just going to kind of target random men

(43:58):
for like maybe for who knows how long, but her
until until Jennifer Coolidge kicked her out of the house,
until she filled up her notebook with tally marks. Yeah,
She's like, well, my notebook is full, so I've my
job here is done. Um. And it's not until she
learns that al Monroe has moved back to the area

(44:21):
that she starts this more targeted revenge plot to the
people who she feels need to be, you know, brought
to justice. And yeah, I struggled with some of that
in terms of, like because the movie kind of tricks
you into thinking, oh, is she like killing these men

(44:44):
that she meets at the nightclub? Is she did she
actually arrange for Madison to be assaulted so that she'll
learn her lesson? Did she actually abduct Dean Walker's teenage
girl to teach the d a lesson? You know? It's
all really and so it's but like I just I

(45:07):
don't know, I mean, maybe that's just like the effectiveness
of that storytelling. But I was just I just found
all of that kind of unsettling. What I really take
issue with is there are a couple scenes where Cassie
is being assaulted, and I feel like we we saw

(45:29):
more than we needed to see that we were like
kind of lingering on that. I don't know, it was
just like do we do this need to be on screen?
Kind of disagree with that. I I feel like that
depends on who the target audience of this movie ultimately is.

(45:52):
I think if it is, like you know, like for
people who have experienced that or who have felt like
that is a looming threat over them all the time, Like, yeah,
showing an assault is not really responsible filmmaking choice. But
I think that if you're if your target audience is
like men generally who have displayed these behaviors, who need

(46:15):
who need to see it? Like, I don't know, I mean,
there's definitely a bunch of different perspectives there. I think
that in terms of like a man who might see
himself in kind of this goofy way of like, oh yeah,
I I kind of act like mclovin and blah blah blah,
and then seeing that escalation I think could actually have

(46:35):
like an effect on like, oh shit, like have I
done something like that? Is that an instinct I would have?
I think that there is like it felt like it
didn't feel like throw away at least it felt intentional.
But I also, you know, it is like triggering as well.
It's yeah, it's definitely there's like a lot of sides,

(46:58):
especially when it comes to like killing Cassie. You know,
it's like that's a long drawn out moment. I thought
for sure, like I couldn't believe it. I mean, of
course anytime a main character is killed. I think I
was just like really waiting for like that next twist
of like she she's making it. Yeah, yeah, she's gonna

(47:21):
do the thing. And it was like maybe just I
think I remember going over my head like it maybe
there's somehow and then you know it just I guess
gave time to be like, oh, there's just no way
I guess this happened, like I don't know, but yeah, yeah,
and I did feel like that, like I mean, it's again,

(47:42):
it's like it's not a Rewodgable seed. It's like no
one wants to see that scene happen over and over
and over, but it did feel intentional that like, especially
with a female director who I believe is a survivor
as well, and you know it it's like, I don't know,

(48:04):
it's like it's not going to be for everyone, but
especially it's like I don't know if she wants me
to sit with it for this viewing. Okay, it's going
to feel like ship, but it's supposed to feel like ship,
and it sounds like that reaction that we all had
to be like, no, she can't be dead like this,
like super motivated revenge character that never dies can't be dead,

(48:28):
and like, but she is, and that is so affecting.
And you see her like go down fighting and just
all this stuff and I don't know, it's I didn't
I didn't enjoy it, but I did. I did feel
it was effective. I don't know. Let's take another quick

(48:49):
break and just just for us this time, just this
is for us, and will come back to discuss more
and we're back. Where do we go from here? I
think something worth discussing is, yes, this is a movie

(49:18):
centering on like women's empowerment and condemning this larger victim
blaming rape culture we live in. But it still centers
a sis, middle class, able bodied white woman, And not
that those stories are not worth telling, but that demographic

(49:41):
has been who most of the stories of this nature
have been focused on, not only in like movies and TV,
but you know, real life news. So this just kind
of adds that's just another tally mark to the that
of story about that demographic. And again, not that this

(50:04):
movie shouldn't exist because it's about a blonde, white woman,
but there it just speaks to the need for other
people to have their stories told. It is still a
largely white cast. We have Gail, who is played by
Laverne Cox, who is of course a black trans woman,

(50:27):
but she has no I mean, she has no story
outside of her relation to Cassie, which is this movie
came out in one How are we still having like
one of the only non white characters be a best
friend we know nothing about outside of relation to protagonist
kind of you know deal, Yeah, I was. I was

(50:49):
disappointed in that, especially because Laverne Cox like really makes
a meal of what she's given, Like she's so funny,
and they're like, why could her character being more actively
involved in this story? Why couldn't we know more about her.
Could we have maybe like cut a random character who
appears for one scene and Kevin Laverne Cox in arc Like, Yeah,

(51:11):
I was that that was like one of the more
disappointing parts of the movie for for me. Yeah, I
think she's only I didn't like time it out exactly,
but I would guess that she's only in the movie
for a total of like a couple of scenes five minutes,
five to seven minutes in an almost two hour movie.

(51:33):
That was disappointing. And I mean I think that it's
like in these kinds of stories, that's like you always
see a story around like a social issue centered around
a white character first, and that is like it may
be a very good movie, it may be an effectively
told movie, but it's that like I feel like we

(51:55):
come up against movies like that quite a bit on
this show, where it's like, oh, like this movie was
a step forward of like this is not a commonly
discussed film topic, but when it finally is able to
get made and able to get seen, it's done in
a way that feels very like Hollywood safe of like, well,
but it's about Carrie Mulligan, so like you know, and

(52:17):
it is still centered around like as siss White character. Yeah,
I totally see what you're saying. Yeah, I wish I
thought more of the like well missed opportunities but also
kind of unbelievable thing would be that like if Cassie's
character and Gil is supposed to be like her best
new best friend in her new life, which isn't attached
to her med school life, which I guess she's trying

(52:39):
to get rid of, so like wouldn't she lup heer
into into like at least something more. But their relationship
is really like nothing, Like it's like what is scale
think Cassie does. Yeah, Gail doesn't know much about her, yeah,
like other than work there. But yeah, I mean it
was very I guess kind of stock BFF coming into

(52:59):
like if you know, which also is like a story Yeah,
like you're saying, that's a missed storytelling opportunity of like
this is her only I mean word to believe, her
only friend, but her only friend doesn't know anything about
her and they just like kind of communicated and he's like,
what are the dating right now? Like cute boy, and

(53:22):
it's like, come on you you have Laverne Cox, Like yeah,
almost all of her lines have to do with Ryan,
like she's another I mean, yeah, we've we've talked about
this a number of times recently, where like there's a
character who is just like a queer character specifically who
is present to like just wonder what's going on in

(53:45):
the romantic lives of straight people. So yeah, it's like
it's so it's like a trope that is so easily
identifiable that I am truly, like so frustrated and shocked
when it still ends up in a mainstream, popular movie.
It's like, how how many times does it need to
be said? That was? Yeah, that was super super frustrating. Yeah,

(54:11):
let's let's see. There's there's other stuff here. Oh. I did,
like just in terms of I mean in general, I
guess this is like a genre saying where I feel
like in the revenge genre, and correct me if I'm
like completely off here, because this is not like my genre, right,
but like I feel like the person seeking revenge sometimes

(54:31):
you kind of don't know that much about them, and
I always find that so frustrating, and I also found
that frustrating in this movie. But I think that's just
the genre where it's like mad Max my daughter and
then you don't know anything else about him, like kill
Bill my daughter, and then you don't find out anything
else about her. Taken my daughter, my daughter, Like it's

(54:52):
very often or is it like John Wick is like
my dog or something, or is that my wife? Um,
it's it's my dog. But he's also said about his wife. Okay,
so it's like this is this is this doctor And
for Cassie it's like my best friend and you don't
know much about her outside of it. I just I mean,

(55:14):
maybe this is just like me chafing with this genre,
but I'm like, but I would have liked to know
a little more about her and like what her because
I do like that they, you know, build out a
life for her, and you get the feeling of like, oh,
here her parents, they have no fucking clue what to
do even though they love her, which plays out and

(55:37):
I thought, like Cassie and Jennifer Coolidge there was so
great and she is like the perfect mom who does
not know what to do for generations and she she's
great and and I like that this world is built
out for her, and you also kind of understand for
the most part of like the only I mean, it's

(55:57):
like the only reason that Cassie is able to live
this revenge life is because of like her own privilege.
Like if she actually had to like work to live
and didn't have the ability to stay with her parents
and plan revenges, then her life might look really different.

(56:18):
And that didn't even like hit with me remotely in
the first one. I was like, Oh yeah, if she
didn't have like this niceass house to hang out with
with her parents and like plenty of space to conceal
her secrets, her life would just look really different. That's
not here nor there. I was just like, oh, wow,
you just you can't just live that revenge life. You know,

(56:38):
someone has to be bankrolling that revenge life because you
can't really live that revenge life on a barista income.
Speaking for personal experience right by the way her like
we said her mom who is Jennifer Coolidge, and her
dad who is Clancy Brown, who is most famous for

(56:59):
being one of the Sachman in Flubber, his best known role.
I didn't take that connection. And I love I really
did like the parents in this movie. I feel like
they really give they really that scene where her dad
is like, we really miss Nina, but we really miss
you and you're like, that's so I did appreciate, Like

(57:23):
there are little things that happened in this movie that
like speak to survivors experience or survivor's guilt that were
like really specific in a way that was like yeah,
I mean certain things. And and of course it's like
it is written in a kind of campy way at
times where like Carrie Mulligan, she gets quippy in some scenes.

(57:45):
You know she's not firing off things you would know
off the top of your head, but like who gives
a ship? I love that um. But like the knee
jerk defenses that you hear from from the Dean, the
knee jerk defenses you hear from Ryan's, especially when Ryan
is backed into a corner. The way he suddenly behaves
is like, oh, there you are. You know, there's who

(58:08):
you actually are. And then with her parents like you
you like, I feel like something this movie does do
effectively is shows that when an assault that barely affects
the life of someone like al the ripple effects are huge.
I mean it's it's completely altered the course of Cassie's life,

(58:30):
but it's also like, you know, affecting her family and
affecting you know, it just it ripples out so far
and there's never space made for that for sure. Yeah.
I think one of those things this movie does effectively
that I haven't seen a lot in other kind of
similar movies or movies that tackle similar subject matter, is

(58:56):
it shows that the perpetrator of the assault is not
the only villain in this scenario. There are enablers, There
are cheerleaders, There are by standards who did nothing to intervene.
There are authority figures who gave the abuser the benefit

(59:17):
of the doubt. There are you know, peers who didn't
believe the victim because she had a certain reputation. You know,
there's there's all these people that, I think it that
tend to get overlooked in other stories of this nature
that I did really appreciate about this movie. Yeah, I know,
one interview with the director was she actually described, I

(59:42):
think the characters as like good people who are doing
bad things, which I was really fascinated with, even like
she would say Ryan or you know some of the
other like characters that were like, oh, that's a bad person.
Like I think that's what she was trying to convey here,
which you know, as we said with the casting and stuff,
did a really good job because we trusted these people

(01:00:02):
and like some of these people seem like they could
be your buddy, you know, um, and so yeah, I
think that was well yeah, actually your buddy, our best friend.
So yeah, yeah, I mean a true knock on his door,
you know, we know the drill. But yeah, it is
really like I think that's what was so unique because
it's like, of course we know rapists equal bad, like

(01:00:24):
we got that hopefully if we don't. If you don't
know that, then like lost, cause who cares, don't watch movies. Um,
But like you know, I think this was like more
of the like, yeah, the enablers of people around that
and then being like examined your own actions are people
close to you, because that's going to be much more
possible that you might be that person instead of the

(01:00:45):
al monrope but like you might be Madison McPhee or whoever. Yeah,
the Madison McFee character in particular, Like some some of
my viewers are having an issue with her, but I
I mean I think that that is I mean that
is the case for women watching this movie of like

(01:01:06):
there is that internalized misogyny and also the way that
Cassie speaks with her, because they're talking about an assault
that took place seven or eight years ago, but it's
been a seven or eight years where the conversation around
campus assault has completely changed, like from two thousand and thirteen.
It's completely different now. And there was no culture of

(01:01:30):
believe women then, and there was a lot of like
and and and and having her present that was like,
I mean, it was like painful and frustrating because it's
like behaviors that you recognize in in I don't know,
like being in school at that time. You're like, oh, yeah,
that was absolutely like a constant conversation going on. But

(01:01:52):
but but then, like we're talking about earlier, for Cassie
to set the bar so low as to just be like,
can you demonstrate ro more for how you behaved then,
and she can't do it. She can't, And it's that
is like the worst feeling in the world. If like,
like you're saying, Sierra that, like Emerald was saying in

(01:02:12):
an interview that like they're not bad people, but the
fact that it's like if Madison is not a bad
person and she is spent eight years sort of in
the back of her head being like, well, you know,
these things happen, and like, I mean, that's just like
a very real thing that exists in the world, and

(01:02:33):
it's I don't know, there's there's so much Most of
the criticism around this movie I sort of received as like,
you know, how is one filmmaker going to give you
a definitive answer for this problem? I don't know, Like
it is such an ambiguous and changing conversation and everyone
feels different about it for sure. Um to your point

(01:02:58):
a little earlier, Jamie, in terms of us not knowing
a whole lot about Cassie, I think we do get
to know her a little bit better than kind of
similar characters in similar movies. But what I'm in telling

(01:03:19):
let me know if this is not a fair assessment,
But because there is a tendency in narratives like this
for like the survivors to be predominantly defined by their trauma,
I feel like we were getting traces of that, maybe

(01:03:41):
not to the extent that we've seen in other stories,
but with Cassie, like her whole narrative, I mean, her
whole goal is like this all consuming this trauma, guilt
feelings surrounding this assault that had happened to her friend.

(01:04:02):
And I mean that's also kind of the nature of storytelling.
It needs to be focused and specific, and like you know,
we've been talking about she she has given more of
an interior life than you know, again other similar characters
we've seen. And a part of the movie that I like,

(01:04:22):
part of the trajectory of the story that I appreciated
and enjoyed, was when she goes to talk to Nina's mom,
Molly Shannon, and she's like, Cassie, this is not doing
anybody any good. You're acting like a child, and you
need to let it go and move on. And it
seems like Cassie takes this to heart and that because

(01:04:45):
that's when she starts to get closer and open up
a bit more with Ryan, and she like, let's what
appears to be a healthy relationship into her life. And
it's only until she sees he was a bystander of
this assault that she decides to carry out the rest

(01:05:07):
of her plot, her revenge plot. That Yeah, I see
what you're saying. And I feel this way about a
lot of movies. I it's I don't really feel that
I don't know, for the way it struck me was like,
and maybe it was not done in the best way
possible that you know, whatever, No movie is perfect, but

(01:05:29):
I felt like what Cassie is experiencing is like, it
felt like to me, like the how how an event
like this takes over, you know, has the potential that
just take over your life and yourself, And not in
terms of like a bad writing perspective, but in terms of, like,

(01:05:51):
I think that there there are ways that these storylines
are written where it's like, oh, yeah, the trauma is
the defining woman like moment of this woman's life because
plot plot, plot plot plot it whereas like her friend's
death was the defining moment of her life. She can't
move on, but we do get indications that she might
want to through like this potential relationship and through her

(01:06:11):
you know, talking to Molly Shannon and being like, yeah,
I'm clearly like but she can't let it go. And
I don't know, I've that relatable of like, you know,
you're trying to get out of this toxic cycle of behavior,
but you just like and you and also I like
I agree with you. There is like that moment of

(01:06:32):
Molly shan and she like she knows she's sucking her
life up. I don't think she's just like she doesn't
think that, but it's like she cannot get there, she
can't let it go. And I don't know, like it's
it's it's an extreme example, but I there's a part
of me that's like, yeah, I get it, you know.

(01:06:54):
I don't think it's bad. I don't think it's bad writing.
But like I I and I see what you're saying.
I just I don't know, Yeah, it's it's there's moments
where I'm like Cassie's like more of a symbol than
a character to me at different points where like she
is this like symbol of like trying to break past
this traumatic event and trying to hold people accountable and

(01:07:15):
it's too much for one person. It's impossible, it's already
killed one person, and it's I don't know, like I
this is, I don't know what this is for the movie,
but I like don't even really think of her as
a character as much as like this central symbol for
the harmful effect that this is and like the precedent

(01:07:36):
and like what had me just like funked up for
days after seeing this movie the first time was like
for Nina, right of of like the only way she
got justice is to have a friend willing to give
up years of her life and die, and it still
wasn't enough. You know. It's just like so sad and

(01:08:00):
so frustrating and and not completely untrue. And yeah, so
I don't know, I feel like I I think of
Cassie almost as like this like symbol of like the
impossibility of these of these situations for people, right, Yeah,
I see that, Yeah, definitely, Yeah. I think I think

(01:08:20):
also she had been described, you know again referring back
to probably and interview something that I some meta dad
on the show or whatever like that she kind of
had already like her life had already been over by
that event. And I think that I wonder like if
it's kind of like the way that people, you know,
when I mean the whole movie, right, it's called Promising

(01:08:42):
young Woman, because I guess it's a play on you know, well,
he's a promising young man. Why ruined his life? And
it's like always, oh, well, life has already been ruined?
Why didn't we care about that? So I feel like maybe,
you know, I kind of mapped that concept onto her.
It's like her life has been ruined, and it's not
that she's ruining it. It's that he ruined her life

(01:09:04):
and Nina's life obviously, and so then this is the
result of that. Um so, you know, and it's it's
obviously just awful thinking about it if you're thinking, like
what would she have been, right, Like, think of the
possibilities if she had if this hadn't if he hadn't
done that, and then she had become a doctor and
saved a bunch of other people's lives, you know. So

(01:09:26):
I think that's kind of reminded me of like whenever
we talk about like I mean not to bring it
back to literally something too close to home, but like
when people complain about, oh, my favorite dude actor or
a comedian or whatever, and now I'm not going to
get to see his movies anymore because we're canceling him,
And it's like, well, what about the literal like several

(01:09:47):
creative women typically whose lives he ruined, like we didn't
get to see their work or whatever, Right, so that's
already been sacrificed, apparently, and now we only worry about
his future work. But I guess that's sort of like, yeah,
she was a she was a symbol in it. It
was almost like she wasn't she didn't get to live
the character's life because that was already over. Mm hmm. Yeah.

(01:10:10):
It reminded me this is like the like worst observation
of my life, especially after Sarah. That was like so
well put. And but I I the way I saw
this movie ending originally, just as I was watching it
unfold and before the second act, fucker he started going
and You're like, oh no, I'm hurting this my oh no,

(01:10:31):
my body. Um was I thought it was kind of
good to go the way of Teeth, which is one
of my favorite vigilante justice movies ever. And at the
end of Teeth spoiler alert, everyone should go watch Teeth
that you know, like she you know, the the the

(01:10:51):
girl with teeth in her vagina. Um, she does not win,
per se, right, but she does survive and she goes
on to say, I'm going to enact that. I'm going
to continue this vigilante of vagina crime that I've had going.
And like it's not it's a very imperfect outcome. It's
not like she got what she wanted, but she still is,

(01:11:12):
you know, she has this mission and that's kind of
what I saw happening for Cassie and throwing a wrench
into that in like very sudden realism was like fuck,
I mean, it's it. I don't even know, like at
what point I'll be like I've fully processed that filmmaking choice,
Like it's it's a lot, but but I'm yeah, that

(01:11:35):
that level of realism. And then they really I mean,
Emerald Finnell makes you fucking sit with it. They light
her on fire and you see this character that you've
built this emotional connection to to like, oh, she was
so close to getting some of you know, maybe making
some progress in her life, and like maybe this is
the last big thing she needs to do and then

(01:11:56):
she can move forward. But but like you were just saying, sire,
it's it's there should be space made for for people
who who do not get to have that triumphant other
side of the story, because there's many people that, through
all these different factors, don't get to have that. And
then I became a doctor and justice was served, Like

(01:12:17):
that is just not the norm, Like even in I
find it, like, I mean, I know they have to
wrap up the movie, but a'l getting arrested. I'm like
so fucking what, what is actually going to happen to
this person? Like, if this is commentary on the brock
Turner case, nothing is going to happen to him. If
it's commentary on the Bret Kavanaugh case, nothing is going
to happen to him. But that's another movie, right, Like

(01:12:40):
that's another series, that's another thing, But it's I don't
even know what my point was teeth two things. I
just spent the last thirty seconds trying to figure out
if vigilante anagrams to vagina something at all, because you
did say, like vagina vigilante instead of listening to my

(01:13:03):
incredible Point's interesting, Jamie, I can multitask? I can? I can?
I can anagram plus anything? I does it come out
to anything? It's it's not quite there's a there's an
extra A that we need, but it's let me. I'll
keep working on it. Um. The other thing is I
read on our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia that Emerald Finelle

(01:13:27):
originally planned to have the ending of the movie be
that Cassie's body, her body is disposed of and she's burned,
and that's how the movie ends without any justice being
served in terms of al Monroe getting arrested, but that
the investors in the film did not want that bleak

(01:13:51):
of an ending um, so she rewrote it to include
um the ending that we get. The other ending she
had considered was where apparently Cassie does not die, she
appears at the wedding and then kills It's just as
responsible men so Al Monroe, whoever Ryan Max Greenfield's character.

(01:14:16):
I mean that that would have been the teeth ending, right, Like,
that's that's ante ending that you're expecting. I mean, I
do kind of like that she subverted that, and I
also appreciate that it wasn't the worst thing she could
think of. And the reason that she didn't go with
that ending of like her just like vigilante killing everyone,
was that Emerald Fanelle deemed it unrealistic, which goes back

(01:14:39):
to what we've been talking about, is that it isn't
super realistic and the ending that does play out is
more aligned with what tends to happen in real life.
A fun fact that I found that it's like so dorky,
but I was like, interesting, Cassie, is that is a

(01:14:59):
reference to like a Greek myth um. It's a reference
to Cassandra, who is the truth teller prophet has who
was never believed, And so it turns out that was
a very deliberate name choice, and I was like, damn,
she's good. Emerald Faneal went to a library. I really

(01:15:21):
did her wikipedias in that knowledge. Is there anything else
anyone else wanted to touch on? Um? I'm pretty emotionally exhausted,
So I'm that's a yeah. Yeah, we covered all covered
all of it, solved all of it. I think, Yeah,
I think we really fixed rape culture today. Yeah, we

(01:15:45):
did it. Your move promising to just kidding? Clease the
ten part Amazon series, right, yeah, Like, let's make this
uh more painful for everybody. I'm very glad this movie exists,
but I don't want to see it again. Um, but
does it pass the Bechdel test? It does? There are

(01:16:06):
for It's just like, is it even relevant for this movie?
But it does. Cassie talks to Gail, her mom, Nina's mom.
As far as our nipple scale, where we rate the
movie zero to five nipples based on an examination of
intersectional feminism, Okay, I guess I'll give this four nipples

(01:16:32):
because I agree it's I'm glad this movie exists. I
do think it is a net positive. I think it's
and I'm glad more movies are tackling this issue of
just this kind of societal ill of rape culture, victim blaming. UM.
This movie has a very clear agenda, and I think

(01:16:53):
that for the most part, it handled it all pretty effectively,
especially because it's it's handled a way that it is
like palatable for a wide audience, which it shouldn't have
to be. Movies like about this shouldn't have to be palatable,
but it does help. And there are some movies that

(01:17:14):
where there was a movie I saw cited, I'll post
it in the in the notes of the episode, but
there there are a few movies that have in the
past five years I explored campus rape culture, but this
is the one that took hold. And I think that
it does have to do with what you're saying, Gitlin,
with like it being the most palatable star studded attempt

(01:17:36):
to touch on this subject because I know that some
of the synopsies I was reading for movies that have
come out in the past year about um campus rape culture,
we're fucking brutal. Yeah, not bad, but just brutal. So yeah,
I think that's helpful, especially that plus it's gotten a
lot of attention, a lot of award nominations, which means

(01:17:59):
more people will see it. And I'm I'm glad that
is the case, and I'm glad I saw it. But
as I've said, I don't want to watch this movie again.
I've seen it three times now to you know, for yeah,
and that I filled my quota for at least ten
to twenty years. So but even so four nipples, Um, Yeah,

(01:18:26):
I'm gonna honestly, I'm going to skip rating this. I'm
not going to read it because I still don't I
feel like I'm still processing it. But I will I
will say that I am very glad this movie exists.
I think it is like a big step forward in
having this discussion in the mainstream. I don't agree with
every choice made. We didn't even have time or the

(01:18:48):
emotional energy to get into like the hyper hyper hyper specifics.
But I also think that there's a lot of pressure
on movies like these to be perfect and to have
a message that is palatable to everybody, to have a
message that is like meaningful to men who may display
these behaviors and also to people who have been on
the receiving end of them, Like it is such a
huge burdens not the right. It's such a huge topic

(01:19:11):
to take on as a filmmaker and such a huge
topic to even get something like this made. And I
think that this does kind of fall and and this
is not a slam on Emerald Vanilla in any way.
She's clearly very talented, but there is, like you know,
she we see many or most directors that kind of
pop out who are women recently are already established white actresses. Um.

(01:19:36):
And that is that's not fortunately is not exclusively the case,
but it is a clear kind of trend of like
you have to have already been a successful blonde woman
for a decade and then you can be creative, let
you direct a movie. It's not the fault of the women,
but it bums me the funk out. Um. That's neither
here nor there. I'm very glad this movie exists. I

(01:19:58):
think it like challenges a lot of things that are
are not challenged at all. And I hope that we
can see different takes on this topic. I hope that
this is not the rape culture movie. It shouldn't be.
There's so many different perspectives and communities and you know,
all of that ship It's just sub I mean, this

(01:20:20):
is like a campus rape movie with a particular view.
This shouldn't even be the only campus rape movie, you know,
and that makes me sad to say out loud too.
But I hope, I hope that this movie's success makes
room for, like Blaze of the Trail, for other filmmakers
to explore similar themes and and be able to do
it their way in the way. It seems like Emerald

(01:20:41):
Faneal really did it her way here, which is amazing.
So I am not granting nipples at all today and
I and the movie is good. Yes, uh Sira final
thoughts your you can award nipples or also pass you know,

(01:21:03):
pass on that up to you, because yeah, I mean,
I think also good for nipples is a good range
for me as well for this movie at large. And
I think, um, I've also was thinking about it in
the sense of like sort of how rom coms, Like
I had a lot of rom com tropes in it.
You know, we're talking about like the kind of stock

(01:21:25):
best friend and then you know, and then it flips
it on its head of course, with like Ryan esthetically yes, yes,
totally music soundtrack. Yeah, the way they just did all
the like glances and they look up at each other
and all these things. So yeah, I think it was
I that was another thing that I think resonated with
me as somebody who feels betrayed by all rom coms.

(01:21:48):
Why were they so problematic? But I still like them,
but they're always I can't watch them again because they
have problems. Um. So I think that kind of was
another thing that that I thought was interesting thing about it.
Liked about it. Um Yeah, but yeah, I agree, there's like,
definitely it feels like sometimes with these topics, these hea
your movies, like it's like they almost can only tackle

(01:22:11):
one thing at once, Like we're babies and we have
to only do one thing, so they have to Yeah,
we can only do this, and it has to be
this kind of person with this kind of you know thing,
and you know, Okay, so hopefully we'll move past that soon.
But but yeah, similar feelings for sure. Yeah, And I
mean we've had a really interesting discussion. I'm glad that

(01:22:35):
there are movies like this more and more that generate
these deep, thoughtful, amazing discussion. Wow, look at us, we're
so amazing, we're so smart. But no, like, I appreciate
that this movie challenged me in the ways that it did,

(01:22:55):
so kudos to the movie for that. Sierra, thank you
so much for joining us in this discussion. Thank you
for having me. Oh so you know we dove right in,
you know. So I'm glad. I feel very honored to
be here. Yeah, I feel like, let's like, um for
a fun decompress. How how have you been house? How things?

(01:23:20):
You know? Yeah, everything's light and fun. Um, so you
got that side of me. Um, But yes, for sure,
you know, I'll come back for a for a light
one some day. But it was good to kind of
have this conversation because this movie has kind of been
you know, it's a quarantine time. I only got to
see it in my lonesome and like stew on it

(01:23:41):
in my own head and maybe read a few articles.
But it's good to talk it over with real humans
who are also very thoughtful about it. And um, even
though it is very heavy and probably will you know,
require some I have a little of a little white
tea after this, you know, too little self care. Yeah,
I'm going to take a bath. Yeah, please take take

(01:24:02):
the take then night yeah, yeah, you guys, let's kick
up your feet. Yeah, there you go. Thank you so much.
And where where can we where can we find you online?
Where can our followers come and come and find you?
It's actually really scary. Yeah what where can they duct me?
Please do not go and find her, but to follow

(01:24:25):
on the on the yeah, in the digital sense. Um, yeah, thanks.
I am on Instagram at Sierra Coto s I E
R R A K A t O W Twitter, same thing,
that's just my name. And I have a podcast called
stay pod Sitive that I have kind of lapsed out

(01:24:48):
a little bit, but you know it exists. There are episodes.
Would love to have you both on someday if you
would be so open to it. It's you know, it's
very um, it's more light, I would say, then promise
young woman. But but you know, you know, we talk
about just how people keep their heads up in tougher time.

(01:25:09):
Stuff like that. Um. And I am on I'm on
TikTok same name as well. I mean I don't do
that much, but I love to watch them. That's a videos. Um. Yeah,
all that those are the main things. Excellent. Thank you
Thank you again for coming on, comeback anytime, you know,

(01:25:30):
if there's a Christmas movie, for example, that you want
to talk to us about four hours where four for
our podcast, Let's do it? Hell yeah. Um. You can
follow us on Twitter and Instagram at pectel Cast. You
can check out our Matreon at patreon dot com slash

(01:25:50):
s pectel Cast, which is five dollars a month. It
gets you two bonus episodes every month, plus access to
the entire back catalog. You know, take a bath, take
a nap, you're gonna be You're gonna be fine, drink
a tea, you know, and and really practice self care
now and always I want. I watched um, the first

(01:26:14):
half hour of My Big Fat Greek Wedding after finishing
Promising Young Woman last night because I'm like, we just
need a palate lenser, which yeah, it's good, Yeah indeed, Okay,
bye bye