Rerun: In Memory of Mike Loftus (Slap Shot)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdecast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, z Eff and Beast start
changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hi, everybody, this is Jamie. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
Just a quick liner note before this week's reairing of
an episode we recorded and released last year around my
birthday about the feminist masterpiece slap Shot. The guest is

(00:36):
my dad, Mike Loftus, and we're re releasing it this
week because my dad passed away this week.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
I really hope you enjoyed this episode. It was really
really special to me that we got to record it
last year, you know, unbeknownst to you the listener at
the time. I mean, my dad was battling with lung
cancer for three years before he passed. And the reason
that we were together last summer was because he was

(01:06):
going through chemo and you know, a very stressful time
and I was hoping to both manufacture a distraction for
us and selfishly, I just wanted to share what an
awesome fun person my dad is, and especially with one
of the topics that he's most passionate about, which is hockey.

(01:29):
You'll hear him talk about it in the episode. He
was a local hockey reporter on the Bruins beat for
the better part of forty years. I'm so proud of
him and all of this. I mean, everything that I've
done is because he's made me believe I can do it.
And whatever you know, you can none of your business.

(01:51):
All right, I'm gonna save that for the wake. The
point is, I'm really sad and I am so grateful.
Although I don't think I can really listen to it
right now. You should to have this kind of document
of who my dad was and what he's like, and

(02:12):
most importantly, kind of how willing he was to do
one of Jamie's little projects. Just an endlessly supportive person
that he came on our Radical FuMB in his podcast
to talk about a hockey movie that we did not
like very much, but just really special. I'll link in

(02:33):
the description to a little more about my dad and
if you're interested, weird as his family accepting donations to
the American Red Cross because my dad was weirdly obsessed
with donating blood and all the nurses were like Michael
has great veins and you're like, okay, whatever, anyways, if

(02:54):
you're interested in donating to the Red Cross, that was
something he was very passionate about. And yeah, recording this
in a hotel room. And I also just quickly wanted
to shout out my amazing common law spouse and dear
friend and coworker, Caitlyn Tourante, who has been just so

(03:18):
endlessly supportive and patient with me and with my family
as we've been navigating this pretty quietly for the last
to three years. There's been so many different times where
I've had to record from a weird place. Fun fact,
the Birdcage episode, for me, I was in a hospital
bathroom the whole time. But Caitlin has just been unbelievably
patient and supportive and I just love them so much.

(03:43):
And I know you do too because you're listening to
this show. But special shout out to Caitlin for just
being themselves and always being a place of respite and patience.
And yeah, I love this show and so did my family.
So yeah, rest in power. Michael Patrick LOFTUS nineteen fifty

(04:06):
nine two twenty twenty four. Not long enough, but we
have this episode. We have an hour with him, So
enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
The Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 5 (04:19):
Happy Birthday, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Thank you so much. Boom, slam, punch, slap, inside shot, divorce. Oh,
so many themes.

Speaker 5 (04:32):
Homophobia, so many themes.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Pittsburgh.

Speaker 5 (04:38):
M hmm.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
I was really excited that this movie took place. I
was like, I was like, where is Kaitlyn going to
connect with this movie? There's got to be somewhere. I
was like, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 5 (04:47):
It's the Pennsylvania connection.

Speaker 6 (04:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
So, okay, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
Jamie Laftus.

Speaker 5 (04:53):
My name is Kaitlin Dernte, and this is our show
where we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point to
initiate much larger, much grander conversations.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
It's true, and the Bechdel Test, of course, is a
media metric created by Alice and Bechdel as a joke
as a goof back in the eighties in her comic
Likes to Watch Out For. It started as just a
one off joke, but has since become a way to
talk about how and if women are represented in movies

(05:29):
and people of marginalized genders in general. A lot of
versions of the test. The version of the test that
we observe to start our conversation is the test requires
that there be two characters with names of a marginalized
gender talking about something other than men for two lines
of dialogue.

Speaker 5 (05:50):
Or more or more preferably more often. But it doesn't
happen that way usually.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
But there's so much to talk about it. It's not
the be all and endol movie, and today it's exciting.
It comes but twice a year a birthday episode where
Kitlin and I really get to go absolutely hogwild on
on our on our choice of movie, on our choice
of guest. It's a fun time. And this has been

(06:19):
an episode that has been It's not an episode that's
ever been. It's been requested by one person and it's
no coincidence of that person's guest.

Speaker 5 (06:29):
Yeah, but I.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Would say it's been Well, Dad, what do you how
long have you been asking me about this? It's been
a couple of years.

Speaker 6 (06:35):
Well, how long have you had the show?

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Seven years? Now?

Speaker 6 (06:39):
It hasn't been seven years.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
I would say at least four years.

Speaker 6 (06:42):
Well we've talked about this, I mean in your other
podcast life when you did the Kathy podcast, you know,
it was it was a thought that I had that,
you know, there was this comic. It wasn't for everybody,
but the more I thought about it, it was kind
of it was unique first time. You know, it was
like there really weren't in the comic strips. You know,

(07:05):
women were moms or girlfriends, maybe teachers, but there was
never like a single business woman. So I tossed that
to you, and I guess in the case of slap Shot,
you know, I sort of was thinking of a Kathy
thing too, because you know, there are interesting to me,
you know, representations of women and their stories, and that's

(07:28):
that's what your cast is all about, you and Caitlyn.
So I thought, well, you know, throw it out there
and see what they think.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
And here we are, and sure enough, we're doing it.
We're covering a slap shot and the guest you just
heard allan Kitlyn usually introduced the guests, but they have
generously offered me the opportunity.

Speaker 5 (07:46):
It's your time to shine.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
Jamie, our guest today is a former hockey writer current
hockey fan. Has been covering hockey since the eighties, been
playing hockey since the seventies when this movie comes out.
He's also a proud father to two wonderful children, lifelong

(08:11):
Brocton residents. A Brockton legend. It's Mike loftis welcome. Welcome
to the cast.

Speaker 6 (08:17):
Dad, welcome, Jamie. Good to see you, and good to
see you too, Caitlyn.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Thank you for listeners. I'm currently in Brockton at my
dad's house and he's he's downstairs with my equipment. I'm
upstairs with my phone. We've had a very professional setup.
It's like we're not even. But he did drive me
to Dunkin Donuts right before the episode so that I'll
know on.

Speaker 5 (08:41):
You got to have your birthday dunks.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, it's true, it's yeah, it's I'm feeling the birthday love.
I'm feeling thrilled about the birthday. So yeah, my memory
of I don't remember when you first brought this movie
up to me for the Bechdel Cast, but you every
time you're like, I think you would be like if
I happen to be talking about work, you'd be like,
you know, Slapshot is written by a woman that was

(09:09):
just kind of the pitch and it stuck with.

Speaker 5 (09:12):
Me, and you pitched it to me Jamie multiple times
as well, and it was yeah later.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Which, to be fair, it's not a personal attack. That's
how most of our episodes end up happening. We think
it over for a good two years, and then eventually
we cover it. I feel like that has become kind
of our habit.

Speaker 5 (09:35):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Anyways, Yeah, we're covering slap shot. It is a nineteen
seventy seven film is directed by George roy Hill. It
is written by Nancy Dawd. It stars Paul Newman amongst
Caitlyn Is. Oh, I learned this. I learned this this
wearing dad. Caitlyn's horny for Paul Newman and he's very handsome.

Speaker 5 (09:56):
Oh my gosh. It's kind of the only thing I'm
going to be able to contribute this episode. I am
my thirst for Paul Newman.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, unbelievable. Focused on men that night, having discourse.

Speaker 5 (10:11):
I'm just gonna be like Paul Newman. Oh woo ga.
I don't like his character, but I very much enjoy
looking at his face.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Well, I guess let's let's get into it. I guess, dad. Uh, Well, actually,
let's get ours out of the way, kill it. What's
your history with the movie slap Shot.

Speaker 5 (10:29):
I only know about this movie because of the various
times Jamie, you've said, my dad wants to come on
the podcast and cover slap Shot, And okay, that is
the reason I know this movie exists, Jamie, what's yours?

Speaker 1 (10:44):
I know this movie exists because my dad has told
me about it. But I also have we've had Hansen
brother glasses at the house for I remember where we
have like I think they're on the table next to you, Dad,
but they're like the Hanson brother like glasses. It is like,
that's the only part of this movie that I really
knew about. I had not watched it until the other

(11:06):
day to prepare for this episode, because you know, I
criminally have never been very into hockey, and so it
was not a movie that really appealed to me. But
I knew the Hanson brothers because they are so ingratiated
into hockey iconography that we have like glasses that were

(11:27):
given out of a game with the tape in the
middle and the hands, and brothers specifically are very iconic
in hockey culture. I think this movie is too, but
like more, I think the Hanson brothers are kind of
the most enduring would Is that right?

Speaker 6 (11:41):
Would you say absolutely? I mean it's you know, you
brought us some other hockey movies last night. There aren't
a lot of them. Yeah, you know, there are a
lot of baseball and football and basketball movies. Hockey's I
think hockey fans of a certain age say it's it's
slap shot. And then you know, maybe another generation would
be the Mighty Ducks. And you know.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
I think we would say more so than Mighty Ducks,
and then current current generation. I don't know if they
have a hockey movie.

Speaker 6 (12:09):
I could tell you of a hockey movie.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
But is it good?

Speaker 6 (12:14):
It's goon?

Speaker 5 (12:14):
Yes, Oh, I have heard of this one, Sean William Scott.
Isn't it? If I'm not mistaken?

Speaker 6 (12:20):
I don't know actors that well, but I think it is.
I actually I know the gentleman that that film was
based on. Okay, it's a true story about a guy
who and and the and the movie does not really
tell the story of the actual person. But classic that
was okay. He knew, he knew that was going to happen,

(12:41):
and he was he was alright with it.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
You know.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
I hope they paid him well for the book.

Speaker 6 (12:45):
Rights that might have happened.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
But yeah, a slapshot has not been a huge part
of my life. But hockey certainly has grew up around
hockey culture, hockey ideas, hockey labor. Yeah, I have I like.
I like hockey, I think as much as someone who
doesn't follow it can.

Speaker 5 (13:08):
I mean, missus Zamboni, I.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Have a Zamboni tattoo, and I didn't notice until the
end of the first movie the movie slap Shot Zero.
Zamboni's Zamboni visibility at an all time low. My favorite
ice sports movie, as you know, is Ititania. I love Itania.
Not a single Zamboni and that one either, What the hell?

Speaker 6 (13:29):
I know, it's pretty and you know it's interesting to
me that, you know, when I sat down to watch
it again the other night, like and watch it in
a different way, I didn't realize it was it's a
two hour movie, yes it.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Sure, it feels pretty long.

Speaker 6 (13:43):
So so you know, there was plenty of time in
there for you know, Zamboni, tomfoolery.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
And yet and yueling Zamboni's.

Speaker 6 (13:54):
Well even just a you know, I mean, I don't
know if we I don't know if this is the
part where we even bring in little things about the
the film, but you know, little things, little things that
the you know, the team does to really really continue
to whip people in a frenzy, right, like you know,
parking an ambulance outside of a game. You know before
it starts, you couldn't have had somebody dress up crazy

(14:16):
and just like you know drive the zamboni.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Naked person driving a zamboni. Well, it's a perfect it's
a perfect rhyme comedy idea. Okay, never mind.

Speaker 6 (14:25):
But you know, an oversight. I agree, Jane good point.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, I felt strongly about that. I feel like Zamboni's
are rarely included, to the point where I wonder if
the company simply objects to it, because it just seems
like such an easy win. But they're a very kind
of flatigious Italian family, the Zamboni family, so I've heard
when I've tried to contact them. Sure, So I like hockey.
I had never seen Slapshot all the way through, and

(14:52):
I watched it twice to repair, once with my dad,
once without and I have I mean, it's so weird
because I feel like the the reason that I didn't
like this movie as much as I was hoping to
it just has mostly to do with the fact that
I historically don't love like super raunchy comedies, like they
just have never really appealed to me. But the more

(15:14):
that I learned about the production of this movie, there's
a lot of stuff to talk about. Certainly a lot
of it doesn't age well. We were getting dinner with
my aunt's last night and my Annie Kate, my dad's sister,
we've all been you know, hockey pilled over the years,
and she's like, oh, yeah, I've seen Slapshot. It's kind
of hard to watch now because it's long and a
lot of it ages really badly. And I was like,

(15:36):
all right, so we're all in the same page here.
But it is interesting. We don't cover a lot of
movies from the seventies, and I think for a movie
that a lot of it ages not well. There were
more women in the story than I was expecting. I
think more women than your average sports movie in general,
I would agree, So lots to talk about. Yeah, Dad,

(15:59):
what's your history with the movie Slapshot? Do you remember
when you first saw it?

Speaker 6 (16:03):
Well, that it actually came out the year I graduated
high school nice nineteen seventy seven, which is when I
was wrapping up my my super average career as a player.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay, give us the rundown. What position did you play? Generally?

Speaker 6 (16:20):
I was a defense defenseman. One goal career statistics one goal,
one assist, multiple penalty minutes. Knee injuries, yes, one knee surgery,
one broken nose. Went from there to I coached youth
hockey with a buddy of mine for a couple of years.
That was fun.

Speaker 5 (16:40):
Nice.

Speaker 6 (16:41):
When I was in college, I started officiating games as
a way to make a few bucks. And then that
all dried up and I went into the the you know,
there was no future in any of that for me,
but I still just kind of couldn't quit the game,
and newspapers loved the sports section sports guy, so in

(17:03):
the in the there I am and like the you know,
kind of the teeth of the late seventies or when
there's a lot of people going into journalism because of
like all the president's men, and you know, everybody wants
to be a journalist.

Speaker 5 (17:15):
Interesting movies are so influential is that it didn't really.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Feel like there is an uptick after all the presidents.
And that makes sense to.

Speaker 6 (17:22):
Me, Oh yeah, definitely, because a person like me who
would show up and say, yeah, I want to be
a sports writer. Was like, what that doesn't count? What's
wrong with you? Yeah? So that that's how That's kind
of where it comes from. And the interesting little side
story is the the reason that I even played in
the first place was that when she was young, before
she got married, my mom was a huge hockey fan.

(17:44):
She loved the Bruins. I think she really liked the
fights a lot. But you know, she got married, she
had three kids in four years, and at around that time,
the Bruins in Boston, who had been terrible for a while,
all of a sudden they got very good. They had
a great team and a lot of personality, a lot
of fun, and she couldn't contain herself. She just she

(18:06):
signed me up, even though I told her I didn't
want to play so and you know, by the end
of my first season playing it was kind of all
I wanted to do.

Speaker 5 (18:14):
Nice.

Speaker 6 (18:15):
So there's my does that do now? I don't think
my mom watched Slapshot with me, but but you know,
myself obviously and my my hockey friends. I mean, you know,
certain aspects of that movie just from having played on
a team and everything like that, just kind of you know,
cracked us up.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
And then just just for listener context, how long did
you work in sports journalism covering.

Speaker 6 (18:43):
Hockey, specifically covering hockey. I would say I started like
in nineteen eighty nine. Halfway through that season, I became
like the full time you know, Bruins beat writer at
my paper. And I held that job through the twenty
nineteen twenty season, the last the bubble season, the pandemic season,

(19:07):
So it was a good It was like thirty something
years and I and also, you know, as my newspaper changed,
the industry changed, and I had to you know, I
always said the Bruins, but I found lots and lots
of other hockey stories to do. You know here in
New England and the Boston area is so lots of
college stories, lots of stories about minor league players, you know,

(19:30):
draft picks we had, you know, coaches. And one of
the more interesting things was over my time was the
growth of like the women's hockey game, which I'm not
even sure it really existed when I started.

Speaker 5 (19:46):
You know, I just realized I know nothing about it,
nor did I even realize there was a women's hockey league.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
It's cool. I mean that that you know, obviously you
know a million times worry about it than me. But
when when I went to Toronto a couple of months
ago to do a show with your rock about I
went to the Hockey Hall of Fame, and it's like
this big, cool, sprawling museum that has exhibits on women's
hockey and on non white hockey leagues, and just like

(20:15):
all all of this cool. I don't know, you know,
it is definitely a predominantly white male sport, as our
most North American sports, but women's women's hockey leagues are
really really interesting, and I feel like there is I'm
kind of surprised that there isn't a movie about maybe.
I mean, listeners feel free to let us know if

(20:36):
there is one and we just don't know about it.
But I don't think I've ever seen like movie or
show explicitly about women's hockey, which feels weird. I feel
like there's movies about at least one movie about women's
sports in most major sports.

Speaker 6 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, but it was, I mean, it's it's
around here, and I guess, you know, in other places
where hockey is a thing, you know, the youth and
high school and college level. You know, women's hockey is
a thing. You know, almost every almost everybody has a
team now in college. And the interesting thing to me
was it has struggled to really get off the ground

(21:12):
and stay established. But I will say, for like the
last five or six years has been a women's professional
hockey league, you know where women you know, it's professional,
they got paid to play. As the twenty nineteen twenty
twenty season was winding down before everything shut down because
of COVID, I always I think about, how interesting is

(21:36):
that the last athlete that I interviewed face to face
one on one was a women's professional hockey player. Cool,
which I thought was you know, I didn't know it
was going to be the last one. I thought I
would be going to work the next day.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
But you would have talked to a man.

Speaker 6 (21:52):
No, I was there specifically to do this.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Okay, all right, you're killing it. Everything's so great. No, No,
that's that's really I am obviously a fan of my dad,
but I think it's I think I do think it's
cool that you've covered so many local stories that no
one that that are not ordinarily covered, especially with I mean,
like I mean, Caitlin, what you just said is kind

(22:17):
of proof of that of just like women's like women's
hockey is absolutely a thing, but it's not covered in
any sort of broad way.

Speaker 5 (22:25):
Right, Like I've never seen a women's talkie game on TV.
Not that I'm like actively seeking out sports games.

Speaker 6 (22:32):
You you would more likely find it during like the Olympics.
It's a it's a yeah, And an issue is that
the United States is great at it, Canada is great
at it, but there's you know, they need more international competition.
It is you know, it's not like there's generations of Swedish, Norwegian,

(22:54):
you know, European players.

Speaker 5 (22:55):
I was going to say, like Sweden, what are you doing? Hello?

Speaker 6 (22:58):
Yeah, I know, right, But I mean it'll come.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
It will when I write my awesome women's hockey movie.

Speaker 5 (23:06):
So let's take a quick break and then we will
come back for the recap.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
First periods over, you could say.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
And we're back, and now it's the second period. How
many are there periods? Okay?

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Three? So this kind of works perfect.

Speaker 5 (23:31):
Wow. Yeah, So the thing that I thought was halftime,
it's probably not actually halftime. There's like two breaks, there's
the middle.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, there's not really any like manner of halftime show
for hockey, there's like, uh, well, to guess my zanoni's.
The Zamboni's are kind of how you know, like, yeah,
they come out twice and they resurface the ice because
that's their kind of one purpose. And and sometimes, uh,
you know, kids and also local celebs will come out

(24:01):
on the zamboni and sometimes it's me at the Staples
Center in January twenty twenty, it was me one time.
I think we should. I think we should definitely post
a picture of it to our Instagram.

Speaker 5 (24:14):
Actually absolutely, I think it's.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Pretty important too. But there's well, there's also I feel
like there's because there's no cheerleading element to hockey because
it's on ice. But they have like what do they
call like it's a group of it's now a gender
inclusive group, but it's like a they kind of assist

(24:38):
the zamboni's. It's not really as festive as cheerleading or dancing.
It's really just like excited sweeping.

Speaker 6 (24:46):
And there are there are some teams that will employ
people to you know, stand in the stairways and everything
and cheer.

Speaker 5 (24:53):
Okay, I know that job.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
It seems like a fun job. I wonder if I
feel like traditionally those jobs are really low paid or
what the deal is in hockey. But I was like,
you know, I would sweep, I would sweep in shorts.
Why not?

Speaker 5 (25:05):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Anyways, let's what happens in the movie slap Shot. Then
let us I.

Speaker 5 (25:11):
Would be delighted to tell you. Okay, we meet a
minor league, right, minor league hockey team called the Chiefs
from the fictional town of Charlestown, Pennsylvania, not to be
confused with Charlestown, Massachusetts, which is where the movie The

(25:31):
Town famously takes place.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Well that is kind of the famous town. Wow.

Speaker 5 (25:37):
Okay, so the most seasoned player and also the coach.
I did not know that the coach of a hockey
team was also a player. Fascinating to me.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Can that happen in minor leagues? Is that a thing?

Speaker 6 (25:50):
Yeah? It has been. Player coaches. The lower you go,
you never know what you're going to see.

Speaker 5 (25:56):
So the coach slash a player is Reggie Dunlop played
by Paul Newman Albahabbah. And then we meet some other
players like Ned Brayden. There's a goalie named Denny who
is French, and everyone makes fun of him for English

(26:17):
not being his first language.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
I really like his opening monologue that ends like with
him just poetically describing the penalty bucks and then you
get free. I was like, whoa, you feel shame and
then you get free and.

Speaker 5 (26:33):
You're like, whoa, Denny. We also meet Joe McGrath, who
is the team's manager because he's not the coach, so
he's the manager.

Speaker 6 (26:44):
Is that right, Mike, Yeah, general managers what you'd call.

Speaker 5 (26:47):
Okay, got it. He has the team do fashion shows
to promote the games because people aren't coming out as
much to the games anymore because the Chiefs kind of
suck and they've been losing a lot. Also, a local
mill is going to be closing soon in the town
and it's going to potentially mean that Charlestown will sort

(27:11):
of dry up and then the team might have to fold,
So that's looming over everybody. We also meet the Hansen brothers.
They have just been signed over to the Chiefs. They're
characterized as being a bunch of dipshits who bring their
toys with them even though they're adults.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
They're yeah, they're young adults. I don't know. It's like,
it didn't shock me. That like when they're like eighteen,
twenty and twenty.

Speaker 5 (27:40):
One something like that, and then you're.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Just like, yeah, I guess they would bring.

Speaker 5 (27:44):
Their race cars.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
I was subout to say they're not hurting anybody, but
that's actually kind of their whole banger.

Speaker 5 (27:50):
But they do kind of they are super violent on
the ice, and then they would later go on to
form a boy band and sing bop.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Know, it's so confusing, Like, I God, that is that's
a good generation gap. It's like, who are the hands
and brothers to you? Right, because I'm going to umbob
every time. I didn't know that boomers had their own
handsome brothers.

Speaker 5 (28:14):
It's true. Okay. So we also meet a few of
the players' wives. They're his wives, such as Bryden's wife Lily.
She hates this town. She seems to just kind of
generally hate her life and possibly her husband. We also

(28:34):
meet Francine, who is Reggie's ex wife who he is
trying to win back to know of it.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
My hero, my favorite character, Francine.

Speaker 5 (28:45):
Francine Rocks. So the team they wonder who owns the
team because they don't know, and Reggie is like, I
don't know, it's just a corporation and then they're general man.
That guy Joe reveals that this is the Chief's last season,
and the players are worried that they won't be signed

(29:08):
to another team. Some of them feel like they're getting
too old to like be a valuable asset to another team.
Reggie thinks that they might get sold and get transferred
to a new city. He's thinking somewhere in Florida.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Reggie is such a mess. It is no secret to
anyone on this call. And I don't care for the
character of Reggie. Not a fan of his. I think
it's so like we'll talk about him more obviously later
in the episode, but I really like, especially the second
time when I was watching it, it was because he's

(29:45):
such a piece of shit to everyone, and it's it's
really interesting to me that like his only redeeming moments
happen privately, Like he's never publicly nice to anybody. Privately,
he will say nice things about people hid their back,
never to their face, and it just like it made me,
I don't know, it was it was an interesting character.

(30:07):
I mean, it's tricky because it's like I don't think
the movie is fully I don't know. I mean I
I think he's like he's a piece of shit and
also kind of tragic to me in a way, because
he just seems like someone who needs a friend so badly,
but like can't stop getting in his own way enough
to ever like have a friend. Like, there's so many

(30:30):
characters in this movie that he almost forges a friendship
with but then turns on them or is a piece
of shit to them, or like feels insecure for a
second and says something cruel to them, and you're just like,
this person is so like it's it's a mess, he's
an asshole, but it's also like it's sad, Like it's
like this guy just needs to get out of his

(30:50):
own way and make a make a friend, but he
but he can't do it, and it's it's very frustrating
to watch him abotage himself over and over truly.

Speaker 5 (31:03):
Yeah, So he's insecure about the future of the team
and he goes to this sports writer Dickie Dune aka
basically Mike loftis.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, Dad, did you feel represented? Dicky done?

Speaker 6 (31:19):
I do like that he's often well just trying to
catch the spirit of the thing, you know.

Speaker 5 (31:23):
He says this a lot.

Speaker 6 (31:24):
Yes, yes, I mean, you know whatever Reggie Dunlop plays him.
You know, obviously, you know kind of plants this story
about here we're getting sold when you know that never
was going to happen, right, So Dickie's Dickie's failure to
like maybe follow up on that.

Speaker 5 (31:43):
He's not doing very good journalism, yes, because he's doing
no research.

Speaker 6 (31:47):
But you know he's probably selling some papers, and you know,
he just it's funny how he just sort of fell
right into right right into Reggi's reggis trapped there.

Speaker 5 (32:01):
Well, he is charming, he is like charismatics, so people are.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Like, he is hot, so you should probably.

Speaker 5 (32:07):
Be so hot. So everyone listens to him.

Speaker 6 (32:09):
And that's a great line too where there. You know, Paul,
you know reggis reading the story. Hey, Dickie Dunn wrote it.
You know it's true, right.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Also, Uh, it's it's stereotypes. Uh, sports writers as bad parents.
His daughter run out and her brother was bullying her,
and he's like, all right, resolve it among yourselves. Talking
to Paul Newman.

Speaker 5 (32:33):
I'm doing business right now, I'm mister business.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Bad representation.

Speaker 6 (32:37):
I think there might have been a drink or two
there too.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Oh, yeah, yeah, he said, he said, go away, kids,
and then he starts drinking again. There's a lot of
drinking in this movie.

Speaker 5 (32:45):
So much drinking.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, Dad, you'll have to explain the seventies.

Speaker 5 (32:56):
So Dickie Dunn is like, that's ridiculous. No one's gonna
buy a fifth place team, and Reggie is like, well
that's about to change. Meanwhile, Reggie is having an affair
with an opponent's wife, his wife, Suzanne, and she tells
Reggie that she's been sleeping with other women recently, which

(33:20):
Reggie uses when he plays his opponent the following week.
This guy named Hanrahan Han Rahn. That will we'll talk
about that.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
That'll be a whole thing, because that's it's like, that's
something that this movie is so constantly infuriating, mostly because
of regg Yeah, where you're like, oh wow, I would
guess that that wouldn't be something that would be like
commonly discussed in a popular movie in the seventies, and
then in the next scene you're like, well, what was
the point, Like, if you're just going to.

Speaker 5 (33:52):
Do that, what was the point exactly? Yeah, So Hanrahan
is the goalie for the other team, and Reggie is
taunting him and saying, you know your wife is a lesbian.
But he's using a lot of slurs and it makes
hanrah Han so mad and distracted that he gets scored

(34:13):
on a bunch and the Chiefs win, also partly because
they get very violent and start beating the shit out
of the other.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Team, which is sort of like becoming their new Emma
ohing card.

Speaker 5 (34:25):
Yeah yeah, yes. Meanwhile, we have a scene with Lily.
She's still having a really hard time. It seems like
Brandon is cheating on her, and then Reggie tries to
comfort her, but in a very sleazy way where he's like,
come over, I'll give you a foot rub.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
He's so frustrating. I'm just like, she h, that's whatever
I mean. I guess the choice is consistent with Reggie's character,
but I'm just like, ah, these two characters, they both
need a friend. Why can't they be friends to each other?
But it's because Reggie can't.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
He's a creep.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, because he can't not be a creep.

Speaker 5 (35:02):
But he's not even the most creepy guy on the team,
because that's a guy named.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
Morris's Oh he's a disaster. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (35:09):
Anyway, so the team sees this story in the paper
that Dicky Dunn had printed about how the Chiefs are
going to get bought and transferred to Florida, which they're
very excited about. And so, with the team morale higher
than ever, the Chiefs start winning a bunch, although again

(35:32):
they're playing way rougher than normal. There's lots of punching
and bloody faces and stuff. Although Brayden is opposed to
playing dirty, he thinks it's cheap and not the right
way to win, which.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
He'll sort of like built into He's like, I went
to college. I'm not none of this nonsense. I went
to college.

Speaker 5 (35:54):
Yeah, I'm still a piece of shit who's cheating on
my wife, But I have morals.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
I went to Colin.

Speaker 5 (36:03):
But Reggie is very pro all of this hockey violence,
and he starts putting the Hansen brothers in the game,
whose entire strategy is just to punch the ship out
of their opponents.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
I kind of love the hands, Like, it's kind of
hard not to love the Hansen brothers.

Speaker 5 (36:20):
They're so goofy. They're extremely goofy.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Wait, my dad's got some some a real a real
sleigh of a of a context corner for them. But oh, okay,
I love I love the hands and brothers. They're fun.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
I yeah, they're awesome anyway, So, uh, the team continues
to speculate who the owner is. Meanwhile, this thing is
happening where Reggie just like keeps lying about the team
getting bought and sold to keep the morale up. And

(36:58):
also maybe he's just like deluding himself because he knows
that he's about to reach a point where he's probably
gonna have to retire and he's so insecure and he
can't deal with it.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
It's so I read this incredible essay about how Reggie
is a metaphor for the men of Pittsburgh in the seventies. Wow,
and I'm just like, I'm excited to talk about it later.

Speaker 5 (37:24):
Okay, Okay, So then Reggie sees Francene with another guy
and he's kind of like following her around and calling
different places that he knows that she frequents to try
to like see who she's been there with. Very stalker behavior.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah he's doing I mean he does the same thing
to Lily. He like jumps in her car at one point,
like he's just he has no issue really inserting me around.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, and he bumps into her at some point,
and franccene tells Reggie that she's moving to Long Island,
which I'm like, yes, please get away from him. Then
there's an upcoming game against Syracuse, so Reggie goes on
the radio for an interview and he says that he's

(38:14):
putting a bounty on I don't know if it's that
team's coach or just kind of like one of their
star players, this guy Tim McCracken. And he's like, I'm
paying one hundred dollars of my own money for someone
to kill him.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
It's such a love bounty. It's kind of fun, right.

Speaker 5 (38:34):
And then there's this player who has given himself the
nickname Killer, and he's like, I'll do it. I'll kill
Tim McCracken. Anyway, Lily shows up at Reggie's place with
her huge Saint Bernard dog. She seems to have left
Bryden and she has a new lease online.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
He doesn't know it yet.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
He doesn't know it yet, let's see. Then Reggie takes
Lily to Francine's hair salon and she gets a bit
of a makeover.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
I have some I have complicated thoughts about that scene
because I feel like that scene's heart is in the
right place, but it's kind of broadly done, but I'm
excited to talk about it.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then Reggie finally figures out who the
owner of the Chiefs is and he goes to see him,
just kidding. It's a woman seemed wit Anita McCambridge, and
he wants to know how the sale of the team
is going, but she tells him that she plans to

(39:38):
fold the team and take a tax loss rather than
sell it because she won't make enough of a profit
if she sells the team.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
It's like every single decision, like every streamer is making
right now. They're like, no, actually, we're deleting your entire
life and career because it suits me today. Fuck you.

Speaker 5 (39:58):
Yikes. And so this news infuriates Reggie and he brutally
insults her son and then storms out.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Classic Reggie, He's like, well, I'm feeling a little insecure
and angry. Let me insult someone who's not here in
the cruelest way I can possibly think of. Truly, it's
kind of his whole thing.

Speaker 5 (40:19):
Then Reggie comes clean to his team. He admits that
there's no deal for them to be bought and moved
to Florida. That Ned was right all along. They shouldn't
be resorting to all of this violence as a way
to win games. And this is Reggie's last game and
he's going to play it straight and try to win

(40:41):
that championship honestly and legitimately. But this is when they're
playing Syracuse and that team is ready for a bloodbath.
So the game starts and the Syracuse team are fighting,
but the Chiefs aren't fighting back, and they're losing. And
then it's not halftime, it's either after the first or

(41:03):
second period. But they're like in the locker room and
their general manager Joe is like, hey, there's a bunch
of NHL scouts in the crowd, so you have to
put on a good show for them, and Reggie's like, okay,
forget everything I said. We're gonna play dirty, and then

(41:23):
we just like cut to everyone punching each other. Francine
and Lily show up to the game, and Braiden sees
his wife and he's.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Like, wow, this part is where this is where like
the whole Lily story falls apart from me, where I'm
like what happened here? So confused about what happens with
Lily's character.

Speaker 5 (41:48):
Yeah, I don't know sure, and I also don't know
exactly what prompts this. But Braiden goes out on the
ice while every sudden, well everyone's just punching each other
and not playing hockey even a little bit, and Brandon
starts doing a strip tease, and everyone in the crowd

(42:08):
and all the players are like tee wow, and for.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Some reason this solves all of the problems in his marriage.
You're just like, it's very cinematic, but you're just like,
it doesn't make sense, but it's a very movie behavior.

Speaker 5 (42:24):
Yeah, and he does the strip tease and it somehow
wins the game. I don't know if the other team forfits.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
I don't know what happens.

Speaker 6 (42:34):
I could tell you. Yeah, So, as as Ned is
doing his strip tease, one of the players, one of
the it might be Tim McCracken, is furious and he's like,
you know, during the middle of this bloodbath, he starts
to yell at the official like that's disgusting. Make him stop,
And the officials like, what do you mean it's disgusting?

(42:56):
Look at this, and they end up with an argument
and McCracken or the you know, the hits the official.
He is no matter how low the miners or whatever,
you know, you can't hit an official. And he hit him,
and the officials says, that's it. The game's over. You forfeit,
you know, got it?

Speaker 5 (43:14):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Okay, nice, okay.

Speaker 5 (43:17):
It reminds me of an airbud when they're like, there's
nothing in the rule book that says a dog can't
play basketball. It's like, there's nothing in the rule book
that says a player can't come out and strip to
win the game.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Right, you can maybe get a penalty for it.

Speaker 6 (43:33):
Play was stopped at the time, you know, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
It's true, so he's basically just doing it. It's like
that that could have been the the ice sweepers, it
could have been, could have been anything, and and he
happened to do that.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, I so the way that this movie it's so bizarre.
We were talking about it when we were watching it
a couple of nights ago, where it's like this movie
in the last half of it, like I'd be on
board and then it would lose me for ten minutes.
I'd be back for a couple minutes, and then it
would lose me for ten minutes, and then I kind
of liked the ending and it was like I didn't
see I don't like, well whatever, we're at the end, basically, yeah,

(44:09):
but like it lost me during this whole game, because
you're like, why does Ned stripping on ice solve the
issue of infidelity and them hating it each other? And
then it seems like, well whatever, Like I'm I didn't
dislike the scene between Lily and Francine, even though it

(44:30):
was like whatever channeled into the idea and to a makeover.
I think you can make the argument that it was
like she was getting a makeover to feel better about herself.
It didn't seem like it was overtly for her husband
or for anyone except for herself.

Speaker 5 (44:46):
Because she had already left him by that point.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah, it seemed like she was she was doing it
to feel more confident about herself. And I don't have
an issue with that, but it just seems like it's
like implied that something happens between Lily and Francine. Off
screw that leads, because I'm like, I don't even know
why they show up at that hockey game. It's confusing
to me because it seems like Lily or Francine's like

(45:09):
getting Lily gassed up to like get out into the
world and start her life. Like whether that's dating or
moving or whatever, it is kind of unclear. But then
it's like, the next time we see them, they're at
the hockey game. You're like, when did you guys decide
to go to the hockey game? Why? It seems like
the opposite of what Lily was trying to do.

Speaker 5 (45:25):
Right, they should have gone out to dinner.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
They should have gone out to a singles bar.

Speaker 5 (45:31):
Right, and then they could have started a book club together.
You know, I don't know anyway, So we cut to
a parade. The team I think has disbanded, but the
players seems like they're getting contracts to go play on
other teams. Reggie is going to go play in Minneapolis.

(45:52):
He tries to get Francine to come with him, but
she's like pass. But Lily and Branden do get back
together in an infuriating moment.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Everyone I've never been so split on different characters endings
where it's like I'm thrilled for Francine and I'm completely
confused by Lily.

Speaker 5 (46:12):
Yeah, but anyway, but everyone's celebrating at the parade, and
that's how the movie ends. So let's take another break.
Second period periods over the big Is there a big
buzzer in hockey to like signify the end of a period?

Speaker 6 (46:30):
Well, I think it's a siren, you know.

Speaker 5 (46:32):
Oh okay, so a woga will be right back. We're back,
and it's time for the third period.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
And the third period can go on for a while.

Speaker 5 (46:51):
Mm hmm. There's no time limit.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
If things are tight, you know, sometimes sometimes it just
keeps going.

Speaker 5 (46:57):
Sometimes we go into overtime.

Speaker 6 (46:59):
Overtime, yeah, on the Bechdel cast.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yes, oh oh that's exact. Okay, I wonder that's that's
when we do the are scoring.

Speaker 5 (47:07):
That's oh yeah, that's like the penalty shootout kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah. So, Dad, I before we get into the full analysis,
I'm curious, do you feel that the sport of hockey
is Like does this feel authentic to because you, I
mean like we're reporting like on the road with teams
and reporting from locker rooms for decades. Does this movie

(47:32):
feel close for the era? Does it feel overblown and
movie fied? Like how does it square with your experience
in this arena?

Speaker 6 (47:42):
You know? Hey, you know, it's it's a good question.
I mean, I think, you know, when I watched that movie,
everything in it from the hockey standpoint is just an exaggeration.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
You know.

Speaker 6 (47:56):
It's like, you know, yes there is locker room talk,
but some of the extent that these guys, you know, no,
I don't think I never heard the violence in games.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
You know.

Speaker 6 (48:08):
Yes, it's a very very physical game, and I would
say back in that era that was more of a factor,
that was more of a strategy than it is now.
And also to the NHL, it's like any major sport,
people follow them. There's like the top level and then
there are different tiers in hockey, the lower that you go,

(48:31):
you know, you're probably not going to make it, you know,
you might, you know, move up another level or two.
So the crazier things, I guess, you know, would tend
to happen, you know, in the lower miners, smaller towns,
you know, smaller franchises, things like that. I mean, and
that's you know, that's kind of where the movie came from. Now.

(48:51):
Nancy Dowd's brother Ned.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Ncy the writer.

Speaker 6 (48:56):
Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, So her brother played college hockey
in Maine and then he played two years a low
minor professional hockey league, and he would he you know,
he would tell his sister's stories about the you know,
the things that happened, and thus the movie. You know,
so a lot of it, there's a lot of things

(49:17):
that are based on things that actually did happen. And
I think that, you know, for film purposes and everything,
you know, it's it's amplified and exaggerated.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
That's something I mean, I guess that's like a place
that I would be down to start, is just talking
a little bit about the behind the scenes process of
this movie, because I didn't I know that. I mean,
the one fact I knew about this movie other than
it's where the hands and brother's glasses comes from, is
what my dad told me five thousand times, which is
that a woman wrote the movie. It was the fact

(49:47):
that I knew, but I didn't know I actually really liked.
I don't know, it's like it I was like, oh,
I kind of do stuff like that sometimes where Nancy down, Yeah,
like she heard that her brother was involved in this.
What was the name of the team that the Chiefs
are based.

Speaker 6 (50:02):
On, The Johnstown Jets, Okay in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
So that was a team her brother was on. He called,
basically with the premise to slap shot that this you
know team was not going to be around for much longer,
and so she followed them around for a month, and
she like shadowed them and did basically like Gonzo's style,
following this minor league team around. And so a lot
of what she saw went directly into the movie in

(50:29):
the script, which I think you can argue works for
and against it because it's like if she's presenting in
this the late seventies that authentically a lot of it
doesn't age well because it was, you know, almost fifty
years ago, but it does seem like that was sort
of her goal in writing it and what she was
trying to present. And so I went back to the

(50:52):
way that this movie was originally covered because it was
like a hit, It was a box office success, people
liked it, Paul Newman was in it, and it was
also like I thought it was interesting that it was
drawn attention to when the movie came out that these
were like, quote, I'm just trying to think if there's
like a contemporary example of this where they were like
quote unquote, like respectable filmmakers making this raunchy comedy. Because

(51:16):
the director of this movie, George roy Hill, like he
directed Butch Cassidy, he'd done all of these like you know,
really pristine, sensitive, thoughtful prestigie movies, and then later in
his career makes this super super raunchy comedy. And then
you have Nancy Dowd who is from Framingham, Massachusetts, representing Massachusetts,

(51:39):
but grew up you know, like a pretty like upper
crusty Massachusetts life. She went to Smith College like she
was like a no one and this was like her
first success success. She went on after this. Two years
after this, she won an oscar for a movie called
Coming Home about Did you see that? Dad?

Speaker 6 (51:58):
I did? Did you like it? It was? It was
a little challenging to believe. It's very serious. It was
like a it was kind of like a Vietnam War movie, right,
and it's you know John Voyd.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
So well it works against it. Yeah, it's no national treasure,
but no, I.

Speaker 6 (52:17):
Mean it's like speaking of but yeah, because John Boyd.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Is truly evil. Yeah, but but it felt like these
prestigee stars, serious writers and directors making this really raunchy,
goofy comedy. But it was also like my dad. The
news talked a lot about how like a woman wrote
the movie in a different context at I'm not criticizing this,

(52:42):
but I just like most of the coverage of Nancy
Dawd at this time was like, it's the raunchiest comedy
of the year and a woa wall will woman wrote it,
and like which, I think that we still see stuff
like that, and it's still like the majority of ron
Gi comedies that come out are not written by I

(53:03):
don't think that there's really parody. I mean, there's not
parody in film in general, but I think, especially in
this genre, it still feels super male driven. I feel
like joy Ride is the only exception I can think
of this year. But I read some of the coverage
because I was like, well, how did Nancy Dowd kind

(53:23):
of feeld this? And I thought she was cool. I
thought she was really funny and really cool. She says
this in a New York Times article from nineteen seventy seven.
This is how it's set up, set up obscenity hockey,
A woman missed out. Has been meeting so many people
lately who can't believe that she actually wrote this screenplay,

(53:45):
that she is beginning to lose her patients, and she says, quote,
the world has a weird view of women. People seem
to believe that we have to write about divorce or
suicide or children so called women's topics. But we've been
around women aren't sequestered any more, and kind of just
goes on to talk about how it reminds me of

(54:06):
like how you still see a lot of women writers
being like, well, I wish this wasn't the story. Shut up,
like watch the movie and like it or don't. But
this movie was, even in its time, considered to be
pretty sexist. I think Paul Newman called it honestly sexist,
which I think is an interesting way to come about it.
And I think I think what he's trying to say,

(54:28):
I don't know, let me know if either of you
feel differently, is that it feels like it's more speaking
to like how Nancy Dowd was not transcribing dialogue but
like just sort of saying authentically how guys she was
hanging out with were talking and not sanitizing what they
were saying. So it's like she was hanging out with
sexist guys. The movie is honestly sexist because she's not like,

(54:49):
you know, sugar making out more appealing.

Speaker 6 (54:52):
Yeah, and you know I would say too that, you know,
when it came out, you know, and I was whatever,
eighteen years old. I don't recall knowing that a woman
wrote it at the time.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
I mean, we just you know, you should have been
reading the New York Times, well they couldn't shut up
about it.

Speaker 6 (55:10):
Reading the Brockton Enterprise, and hoping to one day work
for the Patriot Ledger. But we were just excited because
there was a movie about hockey, you know, and it
was our thing. Really didn't take it that much farther.
You know. I was surprised when I like looked a
little bit more into it later on, you know, just
finding out like little little things about people who were

(55:33):
in the movie. You know that that got me to look,
you know, behind this, not behind the scenes, but behind
the story. And it was like, you know, the only
thing was like, oh, a woman wrote it. I guess,
you know. My not reaction to that, But like the
way I I might come off that way is like
like if her brother wrote the movie, it'd be like, oh, yeah,

(55:55):
of course, you know, like all that dialogue, this and that,
and it just it just you know, it just wouldn't
have seemed you know, it's so raunchy. Like I'm not
saying like anybody can't be raunchy, but it's like you
know that one character, you know, Kaylin you brought up
Marris is like it's gross, you know, it's like it's hideous,
like his h you know, I was saying to Jamie

(56:18):
it was not like I never heard some of those
terms before, but like so so rare, you know, and
you know, I mean, I don't know. I guess in
an office, you know, on a team, there's always that
one person that you know takes it a little bit
farther or just like is extreme.

Speaker 5 (56:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (56:39):
And as I was as I was watching it the
other night, it was like I didn't catch, you know,
in my earlier viewings of it that a lot of
his teammates are kind of grossed out by him too,
which is like, well, you know, thank God for that,
you know.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah, I mean I think it's well, we'll get into this,
like I I don't know, it's I think that it
seems like her goal in writing the movie was like
writing obviously like a movie that people would like that
was funny, but was also like authentic to what she'd experienced,
which I don't really have a problem with. I think

(57:14):
it's more like, especially because this movie has been out
for almost, you know, fifty years now, like it's interesting
watching like what parts of this movie are its legacy
because I feel like the parts that I thought were
interesting about the movie are not parts of the movie
that are famous. And also that's like the writer has
no control over what becomes known about their work or not.

(57:37):
But it just I don't know. I just think it's
there was more to this movie than I thought, but
like the nuanced parts of it aren't what it's known for.

Speaker 5 (57:46):
That Plus like, yeah, she was observing the team, and
who knows, like if she was like transcribing like stuff
that they said and putting it into the script or
if she was in Belle some of it, But it
seems like for the most part she's like, well, the
way that Dicky Dunn just tries to capture the spirit

(58:07):
of the thing, I'm.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Guessing she's trying to do that.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
Yes, Nancy Dowd was just trying to capture the spirit
of the thing, and that seems like the spirit was
a lot of like pretty losersh guys who are either
creepy or stockery, or they don't treat women well, et cetera.
That's just the vibe. Those were the vibes she was getting,
so that's what she put on the page. My concern

(58:30):
is that a lot of it is presented uncritically and
or just framed, like Morris saying all of his gross
comments about women's bodies and stuff like that, is usually
just framed as a joke like ha ha, look at
the look at the team creep. Isn't he funny? Aren't
we laughing at him? Yeah? So, but again it's like,

(58:52):
you know, it's the seventies. A lot of horrible things
we're not presented critically. It was just this is what's normal,
and it's normal, so that's fine.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Yeah, I don't know, it's movies of this era are always,
I feel like, tricky in that way.

Speaker 5 (59:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Sorry. I have one more quote from her from this
New York Times piece. The piece goes on she's generally
frustrated that the movie was considered to have strong sexist overtones.
This was something I was talked about in original reviews
of the movie, but she was annoyed with that. She said,
quote the only thing I thought twice about writing was
making the team's rich, uncaring owner a woman. I worried

(59:32):
about people saying I had made a sexist statement, but
I've seen that woman's attitude so many times. Quote I
never let my children see a hockey game, unquote, So
it seems I mean, whatever she felt, she felt differently,
And I don't know. It's like, I feel I respect
what she's trying to do, and I also agree with
what you're saying. Gayalen is like it just depends on

(59:54):
like how your movie is received and how like I think,
if you're looking renuanced in this movie, you can find it,
but because of the genre, you might not necessarily be
looking for it.

Speaker 6 (01:00:07):
I don't know, you know, And I think too like that,
you know, the fact that the owner is a woman,
you know, as I was, you know, pitching this idea
to to Jamie, it's like, I don't think this will pass.
I think this is like the worst possible. But she's
she's you know, use the description rich uncaring. It's also
it's a she's a ruthless, bottom line business person, right,

(01:00:32):
and like any guy would have done that, you know, Yeah,
I mean, in the same you know, but so I don't.
I don't know that you saw a lot of that
back then where the I don't know, is it called
girl boss. I don't want to step in anything here,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Well, yeah, you've seen my you've seen my show. I mean,
I think it kind of I think that it does
fall into that thing. I don't know. I think it's
interesting that that was what was on her mind in
seventy seven, because I that was one of the characters
that I didn't think, really I didn't have an issue with.
I had an issue with how reg treated her versus
like how she was portrayed, because it was like at

(01:01:09):
that point for me, I don't know how you felt
at this point in the movie, Caitlin, but it was
like you had seen different kinds of women throughout this
movie that It's like I feel like sometimes if there's
only one woman in the movie and she is like
a ruthless, cruel person, then it's like, well, I have
no idea how this writer feels about women. This seems

(01:01:30):
like how they're presenting all women. But because it's like
this one character who comes up late in the movie,
I feel like she represents more of a class thing
than any sort of commentary on gender. And I was
fine with that, Like it's you know, she and reg
and is seen both suck in very very different ways.

(01:01:52):
And yeah, that worked for me. I thought it was
interesting that that was the thing that stuck with her
because I think the thing that stuck with me really
was I agree, like there there's not any pushback on
how men talk about women in this movie. I agree
with you Dad that like they're there. There were some
that you know, you would but you would have to
kind of be looking for it of like someone being

(01:02:14):
like Hugh because they do like the there. I think
that the character that is most clearly written in a
way that the movie is conscious of being sexist is
I don't know, do you know what the name of
that character is, Like the one that is who only
says sexist Morris Morris. Yeah, Yeah, Morris's whole thing is
that he views women as objects. And it's like that's

(01:02:36):
the joke with this character.

Speaker 6 (01:02:38):
Yeah, And you know, and to go back to go
back to the point that it's a two hour movie.
If you cut Marris out right, it becomes a it
could have been.

Speaker 5 (01:02:47):
An easier movie to digest, for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:02:50):
Yeah, and I mean, it doesn't really add anything. I
don't think, you know, it's just it's like it, you
know again, the scene with the owner and Paul Newman.
You know, as I think about it now, that's like
Reg Dunlop, you know, the shoes on the other foot
now because you know, not because she's a woman, but

(01:03:11):
she's the owner and she's telling them like, yeah, I
could help you and your and your your players, but
you know, but there's nothing in it for me. There's
no money in it for me. And when he says,
you know, we're human beings, you know, that's maybe about
as you know for all the other scenes where like
he's sort of vulnerable and he wants you know, France
scene back. You know, that was a it's a small scene,

(01:03:35):
but that's probably you know, his most his most human
vulnerable moment maybe, you.

Speaker 5 (01:03:41):
Know, And it could have been a much more effective
just scene in general or commentary or whatever it's trying
to do as far as like, yeah, rich people conduct
and them not caring about human lives and only caring
about the bottom line. But then the scene ends with
him going on a homophobic tirade about her young son,

(01:04:05):
and then it's just like, well, that undercuts everything that
could have been interesting about that scene.

Speaker 6 (01:04:09):
Right, Caitlyn, as you said earlier, the scene where you know,
he's with the opponent's wife, you know, I mean, you know,
she explains a very you know, personal thing to him,
and he seems to be listening and have some you know,
respect and everything. But then you know, right two seconds
later and that sets his character everything he can use

(01:04:33):
he will use against others, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Yeah, well that's that's something that I maybe, I mean,
if it works for every I mean that maybe has
a good opportunity to slip over to just read as
a character. I wonder I'm trying to think I couldn't
think of like a modern day analog for this character,
because I do think that there is value in presenting
a character like this, who is you know, like I struggle,

(01:04:59):
like a comp splicated guy, but someone who responds to
insecurity by being hateful like that is I think something
that exists in the world. It exists in a lot
of men, but a lot of people, but mostly men
if we're being honest. But you know, in general, these
are people who exist in the world. I don't think

(01:05:21):
it's off the table to present that, but presenting it
as your movie star hero is a very difficult self
for me because then it's like, I think that the
element like Paul Newman, I think gives a good performance
in this movie, but he's Paul Newman. You know, he's
like you're gonna love him because he's Paul Newman, and

(01:05:41):
he's charismatic, and he's handsome, and even when he's saying
horrible things, especially in the late seventies where people said
horrible things more openly than they currently do, Like, it's
just it's even if there is something to be said
about presenting a character like this, I feel like the

(01:06:01):
combination of positioning it as your main character and your hero,
and also like combining that with he doesn't really I mean,
I guess like he doesn't get what he wants in
the way that we see in some movies where like
someone fucking sucks the whole movie and then for some
reason they get exactly what they want at the end.
It's it's a mixed bag for reg at the end.

(01:06:23):
But I wouldn't say he like he doesn't get his
uh really, like he gets to continue to work in hockey,
like he gets part of it. I think the main
thing he loses is the relationship that he very obviously
still wants, right and deservedly so, and not I think
is one of the better done parts of the movie
for sure. But yeah, I don't know. I struggled with

(01:06:44):
how his character was framed.

Speaker 5 (01:06:48):
I don't know, especially because he learns nothing, he shows
no growth, and even at the end when it seems like,
you know what, I don't want to win this way
by you know, pummeling the other team. I want to
play hockey and win that way. And then as soon
as he's like, oh, they're scouts here.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
And it's like never mind.

Speaker 5 (01:07:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's like okay, so you have absolutely no
code of ethics. That's interesting.

Speaker 6 (01:07:15):
And again, I mean, I don't know if we're supposed
to be where we're supposed to be in the discussion.
But you know, again, the more I thought about it,
I remember reading a piece several years ago about the
movie as you know, kind of a not a hockey
movie or a good but like a sort of a
snapshot of America kind of at the time, late seventies,

(01:07:37):
and you know, I can't really remember what the economy
was like, you know, but things, you know, longtime businesses.
You know, longtime industries were really taking you know, a
hit back there, like the steel industry. And one of
the things that kind of struck me watching it, it's
like with everybody depicted in there, even if they're not

(01:07:58):
characters in the movie, but like you know, the fans, right,
they're all looking at losing their jobs because they're you know,
their jobs are going to disappear. And the players, will
they get signed, you know, will the team fold? Will
it you know, they were believing it would get sold.
To me, there's like this low level desperation you know,

(01:08:20):
to survive on the on the parts of everyone there,
you know, and in the case of Paul Newman's you know,
Paul Newman being the oldest one, being not really that successful,
you know, I mean, whether this is you know him
all the time or not, you know, he's he's kind
of the worst one. He's like, I will I will

(01:08:42):
do anything. I'll do whatever it takes, you know, to
be able to continue my career someplace else or here.
And if it has to do with you know, kind
of manipulating my players or manipulating people who are involved
my players, you know, means to an end pretty much
all the way through.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
You know, I yeah, I the closest I can get
to rationalizing Regi's character. I read an essay, an academic essay.
I was on Google dot scholar dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:09:16):
Of course.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Yes, this was published in athlon A E. T. H.
L O N. Eighth Lawn, The Journal of Sport Literature,
Volume thirty seven, issue one, from twenty nineteen, written by
John Source. So take everything he says with a grain AsSalt.
But I did really appreciate his retrospective view on this movie,
and I think because it offered because he did a

(01:09:39):
more class driven view of the men on this team,
which I do think is a valuable way of looking
at this movie. But he basically makes the argument that
Reggi's character like doesn't shy away from the fact that
reg is a despicable character, and I do. I guess
it's like we don't have nineteen seventies than goggles to

(01:10:01):
put on. And I wonder how clearly that read at
the time. But I think that the argument that he
makes that I think is interesting and kind of speaks
to like the parts of this movie that did work
for me was that, you know, I think the setting
is very relevant here where they're like encapsulated in this

(01:10:21):
fictional steel town where jobs are falling left and right.
There's this huge sense of insecurity about the future, and
you see in these men on the team a level
of like people acting desperately when their future is insecure.
And I think reg is a really extreme, kind of
like monstrous version of that, where he is so desperate

(01:10:45):
to preserve what he wants for his version of the
future that he will undercut almost anyone in his life,
even if he likes and respects them. He is not
above completely selling them out in order to present the
future that he feels entitled to. And John Stores kind

(01:11:05):
of makes the argument that this movie illustrates, well, I
guess something that is historically true. I didn't know this.
I was delighted to learn it that in times of
economic insecurity and in recessions and depressions, women are like
statistically more likely to move with the time, and men

(01:11:28):
are more likely to cling to how things were and
be unwilling to change their situation. They're less likely to
want to move, they're less likely to want to switch professions.
They're less likely to want to change the way that
their day to day life is versus women are far
more likely to be I guess, like just kind of
more realistic about what's happening, yea.

Speaker 5 (01:11:50):
More adaptable.

Speaker 6 (01:11:51):
You know, there's a line in the movie and in
the scene where you know, redgch and his opponent's wife
are in bed, and it closes with I think he's
telling her, you know, the team's going to fold or
the team you know, I don't know what I'm going
to do, and she says to him, you know, just
just use your imagination. That's what I've been doing. So

(01:12:11):
it's you know, and I think he uses that line
himself later on ye on somebody else, but you know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
But he's still I mean, but I think that that's
part of like what is frustrating about the men in
this movie for me is like they even at the end,
and I think the movie is conscious of this, Like
reg has not really changed because his last line is
him lying about whether his wife is leaving him or not,
because you know, Lily is like, oh, is she coming
and he's like yeah, and we know she's not, and

(01:12:41):
it's like this it's kind of like a I think
viewed a certain way, and this is not the way
that this character is regarded in pop culture. But I
liked looking at it that way of like, this guy
is kind of tragic. He can't accept that things are
changing and that his life is changing, and that is
something that I think is like very relatable and everyone
has experienced that to some degree. And also it's like

(01:13:04):
if you whatever, because we as the audience know that
he is just like really committed to having the upper
hand in his life in a way that's impossible, and
I just thought it was interesting. But yeah, I think
that viewed from that sort of perspective, the men in
this movie are not flexible. They are completely inflexible and

(01:13:28):
they refuse to accept a future that is uncomfortable to them.
And the women in this movie are not like that.
They will I mean, I think that the well, and
we'll talk about really shortly because it's like her character
is so frustrating because I feel like she was inconsistent
with this. But with the characters of Suzanne, who is

(01:13:49):
Suzanne Hanrahan, I'm assuming, and Francine, they are both women
who are like, look, I was either uncomfortable safe, and
so I got the fuck out and I moved on
with my life. And that's like, that's what you have
to do to survive. And I think it's especially effective

(01:14:10):
with Francine because she knows that she's right to leave him.
I honestly was I thought that the movie would end
with them getting back together, and I was so thrilled
that it didn't. Absolutely, it feels like a good fake out.

Speaker 6 (01:14:21):
Yeah, she turns her car around and joins the parade. Yeah,
I mean, and that was you know again, that was
a thing that sort of struck me about the movie.
You know, you know a lot of other movies, that's
what would have happened. You know, they would have gotten
together at the end.

Speaker 5 (01:14:36):
You know, she would have been like, wow, you won
the trophy at the championship game. Well here's me another trophy.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Trophy.

Speaker 6 (01:14:46):
Well, you know happy endings and movies, right, that's.

Speaker 5 (01:14:49):
The Hollywood does love a happy ending.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
But the last shot of this movie is her driving
any other direction, and I feel like that's great. That
was my favorite sort of thread in the movie is
I felt like, because of the time, and I mean
this still happens in movies, that they would somehow end
up reconciling. When she showed up at the game at
the end, I'm like, well, that's curtains on Franccene, she's

(01:15:14):
gonna be fucked over, but rewatching it again knowing that
she leaves. It's even kind of like cooler. Yeah, she
was my favorite character because she consistently like she has
affection for her ex husband but also like doesn't want
to get back together. And I think like in their interactions,
it was really interesting because Paul Newman's character is constantly

(01:15:36):
trying to like manufacture a need that she would have
for him, where he's he's constantly like, well, if you
need money, you can call me, and she's like, I
don't bat like you know, she doesn't need him, and
he can't, like he knows that at his core because
he says it behind her back. He never says it
to her face, but he says behind her back, like, oh, yeah,
since my wife broke up with me, her life has

(01:15:57):
been way better, Like he says that to Lily, So
it's like he knows it, but he can't really admit it.
And it's just it felt like an interesting, like complicated
relationship dynamic that feels like something that happens in the
real world. And I just like that specific subplot I
think kind of worked for me. Especially because Francine was like,

(01:16:18):
you know, touched that he seemed to recognize that when
she heard it from a third party. But he's right,
and she wants to move on with her life and
she does, and I thought that that was cool. Yes,
But for some reason, that same nuance in generosity is
not extended to Lily, which I found to be so weird.

(01:16:41):
I'm like, was that a studio note, like two women
can't leave their husbands? It can just be the one
like what happened there? Because Lily, I think again, it's
set up in an interesting way, but then it kind
of goes away by the ant of the movie.

Speaker 5 (01:16:55):
Right, it seems like she's being set up to that
her arc will be, like she's mustering up the courage
to actually leave her husband, which is something that she
seems to want to do for a while. She's like
very vocal about how miserable she is in this town.

(01:17:18):
She seems very miserable in the relationship. She's watching her
husband flirting with other women, and she eventually I don't
know if there's some catalysts that gets her to finally
leave him or if it just kind of happens. But
one day she shows up on. Also the fact that
she goes to Reggie. I guess he's the only person

(01:17:41):
who has like extended any kind of olive Brancher or anything.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
I sort of found that to be an act of
desperation because we've seen her fail to make friends and
connections inside of this small world that she's been forced into.

Speaker 5 (01:17:56):
Kind of right, because we see her hang out with
other hockey wives for lack of a better term.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Who to be fair, and I think this is like
a class thing where she and her husband ned because
they're like from you know, well to do families, and
they're both college educated. She is positioned as like smarter, hotter,
better than the other hockey wives, which didn't feel fair.

Speaker 5 (01:18:20):
Right, Yeah, and she's not able to connect with them.
So anyway, she leaves Bryden for a while and goes
to Reggie and she's like I'm moving in, I guess,
and then he takes her. He introduces her to Francine,
and what I would have liked to have happened was

(01:18:40):
they become friends. They have a lot of common ground,
you know, they're both.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
Which is like established, and the one scene they have together,
it's like.

Speaker 5 (01:18:48):
Right, like there's a lot to learn for sure, like
there are neither like current or former relationships with hockey
players who don't know how to treat women well at all,
and the women are sick of it. And I thought
it was gonna be a situation where Franccene empowers Lily
to like, you know, strike out on her own, because there's.

Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
Which it's like, I well, but that's what was so confusing,
because it felt like, you know, you can. I don't know,
like the makeover thing didn't bother me at all really
because it's also like we're seeing Susanne or no, sorry,
we're seeing Francine at her job. So okay. I think
a lesser movie would have reg be like we gotta
make this girl over and you know, but like Reg

(01:19:33):
right there and Francine and like whatever, it's a dated
way of doing it. But I was like, okay, but
then when but then when they go to the hockey game,
like what happened? Because I really liked that conversation where
Lily is and again it's like in the context of
like what I mean, we're well into second wave feminism
by the late seventies, but leaving your husband in the

(01:19:54):
late seventies is different. Than currently, right, and there are
different dynamics to that, and so I understand why, like
Lily is nervous about it. It's a nerve wracking experience
to leave your spouse, no matter what year is happening in.
But I liked how Francine like she said, it's lousy

(01:20:14):
at first you think you're dying, but then it's fabulous.
You become a new woman and you're like, this is
such an interesting dynamic to set up, but then it
just goes nowhere, it goes back nowhere.

Speaker 6 (01:20:24):
Yeah, yeah, and the interesting you know Caitlyn too, I mean,
like and Jamie.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Yeah, uh.

Speaker 6 (01:20:32):
That's your name, right, Yeah, I agree. Like Lily, you know,
that whole character sort of confuses me because you know,
she makes very clear she doesn't like that life. They
could go back to, you know, something easier with money,
and she leaves her husband but stays in the life,

(01:20:56):
you know, she stays in the town. She goes to
another hockey person, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
So it's like, I do wonder, I mean, but I wondered,
like if that was just like temporary and then she
because it was like, I mean, I guess it took Franccene.
We don't know how long she and REGI been separated,
or how long Francine had to save or whatever it
would take for her to start her restart her life
somewhere else.

Speaker 5 (01:21:19):
But it's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
It seems like the movie was setting us up for like, oh,
Francine could inspire or give Lily the confidence to do
something similar.

Speaker 6 (01:21:30):
Yes, coach, I agree, like I empower her coachure so
that that part was a little bit hard not to
just off it. It was like, oh, I didn't think
that was going to be the result of this, you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Know, right, because then it's like Ned, Ned does not
change at all. I know that, like symbolically him doing
the strip tease is supposed to mean something, but it
just like that did nothing for me at all. I
found his character frustrating throughout. I mean, as you know that,
I just like did not take to that character at all.
I didn't like him. I thought he was both snobby

(01:22:02):
and exactly all of the things that he claimed that
he was above. Like I just I just didn't. I
thought he's like such a snotty little asshole who is
horrible to his wife. I didn't know how to communicate
with her. Again, A legitimate relationship dynamic to explore, but
like I felt like at the end, he's like, now
I got my wife back and she's got this cool

(01:22:24):
new makeover, and it's like, but you did nothing, You
did nothing. And the last thing he did before he
did his weird little routine that I didn't like, was
like talk shit about her on the radio. And I
was like, is ay, I'm going to tell her about that, Say,
we're gonna tell her that he called her a hot
piece of ass who's an alcoholic that hates him on

(01:22:46):
the radio, because I would not be thrilled to hear
my spouse saying shit like that.

Speaker 5 (01:22:52):
True, But then I'd be like, but he's exactly right.
I am a hot who.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
And I'd stop drinking if I if I just left him.

Speaker 5 (01:23:02):
Yeah, yeah. I mean when fran Scene and Lily show
up to the game at the end, one of them says,
what am I even doing here? And I'm like, yeah, your.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
Question, what are you even doing there? I wish that
I knew the answer.

Speaker 6 (01:23:16):
Well, I think if if Lily wanted to go to
that last game, she did not really have a lot
of friends among the other wives. True, you know, so
you know, like as an ally maybe and there is
another scene and you know, you know, we've talked mainly
about the same two three women, but there are some
scenes with the other wise. Like there's a scene where

(01:23:37):
the wives are all in their car waiting for their
husbands to get home from a bus trip, and I
thought it's a sort of a sad scene, but in
the in the same way, they kind of like have
to kind of you know, form their own little group
and rally around each other and support each other because
they clearly are not, you know, too psyched with with

(01:23:58):
the life either. And there you know what their husbands
are doing, and you know that they're gone and this
and that.

Speaker 5 (01:24:04):
I wish, since this is mostly an ensemble cast, you know,
you've got Paul Newman as like the main character, but
you've got a lot of little subplots with various other characters,
that there was more focus on the wives of these
hockey players, because to me, they're in more interesting situations

(01:24:26):
than especially because so many of the men are characterised
as either just being like hot headed or trying to
prove something about their masculinity, or their sleezy creeps or
their wildly homophobic you know, all of this stuff that
I don't want to see. And then the women are

(01:24:46):
in this position of you know, it's a time where
a lot of people in like hetero couples, the women
were still relying on their husbands for sustainable like for
his income, and women in the workplace were not as
welcome as they are today. So it was hard to

(01:25:08):
be a single woman or to be, you know, someone
earning your own way as a woman at that time.
And so they're relying on these men who are not
treating them well at all. But it's also very like
normalized culturally, but they still are like heavily drinking about it.

(01:25:30):
There's a scene where.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
I will actually I liked the scene. I think you're
gonna reference because I yeah, it's I'm trying to like
put this through because it's like, it's not like there
were not movies that had women protagonists in the seventies,
but in sports movies, I know that that was I
feel like, I don't know, I feel like I feel
a little defensive of Nancy Dad because I will say

(01:25:54):
I do think that in this movie, the men, with
the exception of reg who at least you see a
few layers of even though I kind of dislike all
of them, but you do see different layers of this character,
so there's like nuance and how he's written. But I
think that the women that are presented far more broadly

(01:26:14):
than the men are, because most of the hockey team,
except for like Ned and reg are like just like,
here's this guy, and this is what he does and
how he reacts. Like here's a sexist guy, here's a
violent guy, here's a homophobic guy. And you're like, there's
all these guys and they're written in the very, very
broad way that men in raunchy comedies are, which is

(01:26:38):
kind of why I don't like the genre. But I
will say that, like, I mean, I even think back
to like raunchy comedies that came out when we were
the target audience, and I'm thinking like early hangover movies
and like John Appatown movies and shit like that, and
I feel like in this movie you get women, like
more different kinds of women then you did, like thirty

(01:27:01):
years later in some cases. But I think the hockey
wives are the most broadly written women that appear in
the movie. And I didn't love that because I feel
like it in the same way that I didn't like
when Ned was like a snotty like I went to
whatever fucking school he went to, and so I'm better
than most of the guys on this team. Like it's

(01:27:22):
just like a moral superiority. And Lily kind of takes
that into how she treats the hockey wives, where I
think she treats them kind of as like bimbos who
aren't as smart as her, and it seems like that
is a part of the reason that she doesn't hang
out with them, because it seems like the other hockey wives,
who I don't know if we get names for them,
they seem like they I mean, they have a lot

(01:27:43):
in common. A lot of what they have in common sucks.
Is like they are sort of along for the ride
of their husband's career and it seems isolating and depressing
and frustrating. And I thought it was she's made a
joke of but we see the same a few different times.
Who's constantly like kind of referencing.

Speaker 5 (01:28:03):
Like Johnny either like Johnny, Yes, Johnny's Who's Johnny. I
have no idea which flayers Johnny is, but he's one
of them, one of those.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
But I thought Johnny's wife, like she's played for laughs mostly,
but I thought it was like, I don't know, I didn't.
I liked her like she was she was like trying
to make the best of what she seemed to know
is a bad situation. But she's like I'm trying to
get my husband to read a book, or like I'm
trying to get my husband to do anything except be
a fucking goon, which is like whatever, what Like all

(01:28:35):
the guys in the team are, and it's you know,
it's not. Is it the most progressive thing ever? No,
But I didn't feel like there is, Like she was
like an interesting character that I wish it had been
played for more than laughs, because when one of the
fights that Lily and Ned have in public, you know,
Lily basically ends by being like me and Ned are

(01:28:55):
better than everyone here, bye, and like leaves right and
Johnny's wife, who God, I wish she had a name
respond to that by being like, oh, I really feel
for her, and You're like, that's I don't know, I whatever,
Like I guess I understood like those it seems like
it's implied in the movie that those women don't connect

(01:29:17):
with each other because of class differences, But I felt
like the Hockey Wives I thought were played broadly in
a way that it would have been because I appreciated
that the movie made time for women at all, which
again it's like, I like, sports movies almost never do,
and if you do, it's like the supportive wife like

(01:29:40):
grabbing their husband's hand being like go go coach a
baby or whatever the fuck, which is like so fucking boring.
But it's like how a lot of women appear in
sports movies at all. But there was especially because it's
like Nancy Dad seemed to want to include women, but
it felt like well to an extent, like I'm happy

(01:30:02):
to include educated women, but like it seemed like the
hockey wives, I just feel like there was room for
them to be played off as more of kind of
one liners. But I liked that scene in the car
where it was like, even though these women don't get along,
they do have a common struggle and they are pushed
aside and expected to put up with all of this shit,
and it's like leading to addiction issues for them.

Speaker 5 (01:30:26):
And yeah, they all seem to be self medicating to
fight the just either loneliness or abuse that they're putting
up with. Can we talk about Suzanne because.

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
Let's talk about Suzanne.

Speaker 5 (01:30:42):
So Suzanne is the character. I think she's only in
one scene.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Yeah, which is wild because the actor who plays her
is like so successful and won an Oscar like this
same year.

Speaker 5 (01:30:56):
Oh wow, what's her name? I didn't even look it up.

Speaker 1 (01:30:59):
Belinda Dyllon You probably my dad picked up on this.
I was like, oh, she is she? I think most
iconically plays the mom in a Christmas Story. But she
or no, sorry, she was nominated this same year for
playing I think the mom character in Close Encounters. Okay,

(01:31:20):
but whatever. She's like a very very successful actor, but.

Speaker 7 (01:31:25):
She's only in this movie for one minute, for one scene,
and it's the scene where she's in bed with Reggie
and she's talking about how her husband Hanrahan, when he
was like out on the road for a game, how
she and another hockey wife they would get together and

(01:31:47):
talk about how depressed and lonely they were without the men,
and then also how they lamented that they never did
much of anything themselves, which I feel like is also
maybe what Lily.

Speaker 5 (01:31:59):
Struggles with to some degree, where she's like, I'm not
doing anything but like supporting my husband in his career,
but like, what about or maybe this is just like
headcanon that I'm assigning to Lily. But anyway, Suzanne's talking
about how like, oh, I never did anything for myself,
and then she goes on to describe how one night

(01:32:20):
when she and this other hockey wife were hanging out,
they were drinking and they started fooling around, but then
they kept getting together and having sex sober, and that
they were like engaging in this like sexual relationship that
they were both into. And she's like, hey, Reg, have

(01:32:41):
you ever considered sleeping with men? And at first he
says no, but then he's like, who knows, maybe I'll
start sleeping with old goalies. And then I'm like, okay,
he's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:32:53):
That scene is like almost and then it's so frustrating.

Speaker 8 (01:32:57):
But it's also like I feel like that's like Reg sucks,
and it's like it's so frustrating to see a character
that in their more private moments seems to be a
better person than they are in their.

Speaker 5 (01:33:08):
Public Yeah, right, Because again, the whole reason this scene
even happens narratively in the movie is that so he
now has information that he uses against his opponent in
a way that like outs this guy's wife like disparages
her for her queerness, and he's like using that as

(01:33:31):
ammunition to try to win the game, and like for
his own personal benefit. He does something similar with the
general manager, that guy Joe, where he's like, Hey, remember
that night that you I walked in on you and
you were wearing like women's lingerie and then you came
on to me. Well, I don't have to tell anyone
about that as long as you give me. So he

(01:33:52):
basically like blackmails him to learn the owner who the
owner of the team is.

Speaker 1 (01:33:58):
That's something that yeah, And then that's like I do
think the Reges is a super villain because I do
almost believe him when he says that he like he's like,
I get it, it's the seventies, queer people exist, Like,
I do believe that he understands that. But the fact
that he understands that and is not above exploiting societal

(01:34:23):
homophobia against people that he knows and says he likes,
it's like, that's that's extra evil. That's extra evil.

Speaker 6 (01:34:32):
And in that scene, you know, like first of all,
the scene where he you know, kind of bates the
opponent the goalie, right, you know, with this information that
he has about his wife, you know, from a hockey perspective,
you know, nobody, nobody stands on the ice and shouts

(01:34:53):
at someone and then moves over.

Speaker 1 (01:34:54):
You know, Oh, they're not shouting plot points at each
other on the.

Speaker 6 (01:34:58):
Oh no no, So that that was like annoying because
some of the you know, some of the stuff with
the Hanson brothers, the hockey, the skating, the this that
the hitting you know is legit. Those guys were really
hockey players. But so Reg Dunlop and rages the goalie
who attacks him finally after a goal and it's a

(01:35:19):
big fight. Now does anybody know at first, like what
caused this big fight? Did anybody hear what Reggie was saying?
I don't think so. Just the goalie? Yeah, so he
he could have left it there on the ice, right,
But then he comes in and tells his whole team
like when they asked him, would you say you know?
And he he out you know someone else that he was.

(01:35:43):
You know, I don't know that that is diabolical.

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):
Yes, it's evil, like it's and it's a first because
I didn't hate their scene together before I saw the
scene after because it felt like these are themes and
just like queer people like just appearing in movies at
all in a way that was like it seemed like
they both accepted each other in that scene, and like

(01:36:09):
the language is not great, but it's like for the time,
it was like, wow, this it seems very unlikely that
this was appearing in like popular summer comedies at the time.
So okay, like you know, I can navigate around the
dated elements of it, but yeah, it's yeah, he was

(01:36:30):
so evil about that. And I feel like she because
that character never comes back, It doesn't come back around
in a satisfying way, but in the same way. I mean,
I love her. I like that scene. I think the
last thing that we were talking about Dad that I
think is extra evil about Reg in that situation is
that she mentions in that scene that when her husband

(01:36:50):
found out that she had had sex with women, he
was so abusive to her that she was in the hospital.
And it's like, well, Reg clearly doesn't care about that,
because he then taunts her husband that he knows to
be abusive, and she says that like she's hiding out
from him, Like it's just it sounds like she was
in this tremendously abusive relationship, which again I believe it

(01:37:15):
like seems, you know, whatever that still happens. But the
fact that like our movie starting Hero then does that,
I feel like it did undercut the fact that the
movie went out of its way to say like that
her having a queer relationship. Not only was he up
said about being cheated on, but also this thing that

(01:37:35):
felt I don't know, I mean that I guess you
can tell us. For the time, like, there seemed like
there was talk among the men of just confusion and
like hateful confusion in handra hand and the whole team's case,
They're like, well, if my wife has a relationship with
a woman, then am I gay and I can't be gay?
And like just like stuff that makes no sense.

Speaker 6 (01:37:56):
Yeah, that was a stretch. I think I don't know
that that, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:38:01):
I was like people people believe that.

Speaker 6 (01:38:04):
Yeah, I'm not sure that, you know, but when I
was a kid, I don't really think that that is
what somebody thought.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
Yeah, I was like, it doesn't make any sense, but yeah, okay,
I was. I was curious about that, but it Yeah,
I mean, just again, reg Reg sucks. I love Paul
Newman and I love salad, but I hate reg and
it is what it is. But I did think that
it was Again, it's like this this movie feels like
it's doing incremental stuff in this genre that you don't

(01:38:36):
see decades later. So I do appreciate that it's like
there is a queer character who is like open about
it is cool, is performed in a way that felt
authentic and cool. But also the seventies element of it
is that they're immediately put in danger and then never

(01:38:59):
appear in the movie.

Speaker 5 (01:39:00):
So and you know, she's she's talking about her sexual
relationship with a woman, but the scene we're seeing on
screen is her in a sexual situation with a man,
because heaven forbid we see like queer romance or sexuality
actually on screen at that time.

Speaker 7 (01:39:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
Sure, or And it's like I sort of chalked that
up more to like, well, how did people talk about
bisexuality in the seventies? Did they know? How did they
have the tools? I just sort of assumed they did.

Speaker 5 (01:39:34):
But also like the way that raunchy comedies of like
the nineties and two thousands would have.

Speaker 1 (01:39:42):
Which I think are worse than this movie on us.

Speaker 5 (01:39:44):
They are they Yeah, and we've talked about I think
I've like speculated as to why, but the way that
those movies will have visibility of queer characters or of
people of color, but they're only there to then like
punching bags to the main characters who are just saying

(01:40:06):
horrible things and like making jokes at their expense of
like what in whatever way they are marginalized, That's that's
why they're there, and it's so jokes can be made
at their expense. So and I felt the same way
for Suzanne, like, yes, she's a queer character who's talking
openly about her queerness to someone who seems receptive to it.

(01:40:29):
But we learned that that scene is only in the
movie so that this guy can use that as ammunition
to win a hockey game and then boast about it.
He's like, yeah, team, the reason we won is because
I outed this woman who has an abusive husband.

Speaker 9 (01:40:48):
And anyone who had listened, yeah, that's I think that's
like that's a good not that it justifies any kind
of behavior, but the fact that he does it a
second time, like he shouts it her husband, which is
putting her in danger in one way, but.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):
Then he does it a second time right.

Speaker 5 (01:41:04):
After, and it's like saying, he's the worst.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
How are you doing that?

Speaker 5 (01:41:10):
I don't have much else to say except that their
their bus driver is wearing a helmet with a swastika
on it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
I noticed that as well.

Speaker 6 (01:41:21):
I never never caught that the first several times I
watched the movie. You know, Walt Walt, who just goes
from Walt the bus driver and you know, he's another one.
He gets all swept and swept up in the you know,
Chief's mania and starts you know, hammer and the bus,
you know, to make it look meaner, and then the swastika,

(01:41:41):
you know, but that you're.

Speaker 1 (01:41:42):
Just like, is that? Yeah? That that was a kind
of jump scare in the movie, and it's like if
it was. I think maybe the most generous reading of
that was like, oh, this team is getting more and
more evil, but they were like, there's so many there's
no world where that was necessary.

Speaker 5 (01:42:01):
No, there's also an indigenous player during the final game.

Speaker 1 (01:42:08):
I want to talk about that. Yes, I mean, I
know obviously you did get spread it up. Yes, which
in general, because the team in this movie are called
the Chiefs and there's a lot of and I think
that that's an ongoing conversation in sports is it is
teams that are named and characterize Indigenous people as mascots.

(01:42:34):
And that's an ongoing conversation also in hockey specifically because
the Chicago Blackhawks. I mean that I know you know this,
you know this whole conversation of representing Indigenous people as
mascots and the issues and conversations that have taken place.
And also that team is still called the Chicago Blackhawks.

(01:42:55):
They did not make any changes after that conversation was had.
I was trying to happened in the mid twenty times.
But so this team is named the Chiefs, and there
is a character in.

Speaker 5 (01:43:10):
The on the Syracuse team, Yes, what is his Clarence
swamp Town aka Screaming Buffalo, who is played by a
real hockey player named Joe Nolan, who is First Nations.

Speaker 1 (01:43:30):
I was worried that, I was really worried that it
was a guy in brown.

Speaker 5 (01:43:34):
A white guy. Yeah, but this is a real Indigenous person,
a real hockey player. However, the way that the costuming
and the just characterization of that character is still relying
heavily on stereotypes of Indigenous and First Nations people.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
So whoops, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:43:57):
That's a tough one, you know, I mean all the
way down to like I've I said earlier, there was
so much of the hockey parts of it are like,
you know, an exaggeration, you know, like almost like a caricature,
you know of that scene. That's one of the things
in the in the mood, it's like that never would
be allowed. You know, he just he that's that's a

(01:44:20):
you know. And again it's you know, we've talked to
you know, if you could snip this guy out and
this guy out, it really changes thing that was like,
all right, you've you've made your point. You know that
the Syracuse team is loaded up on rugged guys, you know,
to pay you back, you know, like how many did
you have to have? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:44:40):
Well? And it's also like I don't think that the
solution to that is cutting out that character. It's just
presenting this real life First Nations hockey player in a
way that wasn't you know, inherently connected to the fact
that he was a First Nations player. Like I don't know,
I have no objection to like having a because because

(01:45:00):
like you've mentioned that, there's so many real life hockey
players that appear in this movie, and Joe Nolan like
played on a number of teams, including the Johnstown Jets.
He's from a hockey family. He is uh this is
according to Hockey Legends dot com scholarly journal. Yes exactly.

(01:45:21):
He is Ojibwa. He is the uncle of Buffalo Sabers
coach Ted Nolan and great uncle of Jordan Nolan of
the La Kings. So he's like from a like legacy
hockey family. There's no issue with him being in this movie.
It's just like presenting him as not inherently connected to
his like it's just like it's obviously written by a

(01:45:43):
white writer of the time, disrespectful and just being like, well,
this is his heritage, so this is gonna be the
whole character, and we're going to write it in the
way like we're going to write him for a white audience.

Speaker 5 (01:45:54):
Yeah, the most trophy way possible.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
And it would have been cool, Like it would have been
cool if Joe Nolan was cast in a role that
was not that like was just like he could have
played a he could be a guy on that team.
But just it's obviously racist the way it's sounded.

Speaker 5 (01:46:09):
Right, with more than fifteen seconds of screen time, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:46:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:46:14):
I also this is like separate, but I learned about
it on my trip at the Hockey Hall of Fame,
so I wanted to mention it and we can link
it in the description of this episode. But just the
history of Native American and First Nations players within hockey,
there's a lot to be discussed and learned about where

(01:46:34):
there are still a number of I mean like there
are a number of Native players in professional hockey today,
but there's also a history of hockey in reservation schools,
and hockey has a role in Canadian reservation schools. There's
been a lot written about it in the last couple
of years that I think is very relevant to what

(01:46:56):
we're talking about, very interesting, and especially when this Joe
Nolan came character came up, it was like, oh, there's
actually a lot of troubling and like relevant Indigenous history
within hockey that if you're if you're interested, we can
link a piece that I read below and I learned
about it. I don't know why I keep plugging the
Hockey Museum. I thought it was really interesting and we'll

(01:47:19):
link it.

Speaker 5 (01:47:19):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:47:20):
Indeed, ironically, I have never been to the Hockey Hall
of Fame.

Speaker 1 (01:47:24):
I know it's just like texting you pictures the whole time.

Speaker 5 (01:47:27):
Where is it Toronto?

Speaker 1 (01:47:28):
Yes, in Toronto Hockey Hall of Fame. I saw the
Stanley Cup from a healthy distance, and then I did
not pay ten dollars to have my picture taken next
to it.

Speaker 5 (01:47:37):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:47:37):
Nice, I took a picture of it from far away.

Speaker 5 (01:47:40):
Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?

Speaker 6 (01:47:45):
Well, just because I did all the research, one of
the one of the one of the interesting things. I mean,
the people who know this movie would be very frustrated.
It was like, how could you not talk about?

Speaker 4 (01:47:57):
You know?

Speaker 6 (01:47:57):
The interesting things to me are that there really were
like so the three Hanson brothers. There really were three
brothers on that Johnstown team. Their last name was Carlson.
They were all supposed to be in the movie. One
of them got called up to a better team, so

(01:48:18):
they had to replace him with somebody who looked similar.
His last name was Hanson, and that's that's how they
named the three the Hansons. But god, it just there's
there's a lot of little interesting things there. The one
character that he's like, I want to collect that bounty.
Who is another person that reg Dunlop, You know, manipulates

(01:48:41):
because he's you know, kind of like a peacenik and
a meditator and everything like that, and all of a
sudden he becomes Dave Killer Carlson. Well, Dave Killer Carlson
was a real player, and he replaced the Hanson that
had to leave. It's just there's a lot of funny
things in there. So he thought he was going to

(01:49:01):
get to play himself, but instead he had to be
a you know, become like a surrogate brother and be
in a movie where someone played him. My last favorite
thing is, you know, I'm no actor, but throughout the
movie there are references made to this player that everybody's

(01:49:22):
fearful of, you know, Ogie oglethorpe Right. Ogie finally shows
up in that last game, never says a word, scowling
at everybody in that scene scowling and then fighting. That
is Ned Dowd, whose sister wrote the movie.

Speaker 5 (01:49:39):
Oh okay, Nancy Dowd's brother.

Speaker 6 (01:49:41):
Yes, so Ogie is you know, but I mean, I
just that scene just cracks me up, just to skating
out with the you know, chewing the gum and looking
either aways, you know, but for for that on a
screen time, just you you know, to sell it. I'm like,
all right, nice job guy, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
Yeah, I mean I like I think that that's like
just the I don't know, element of just like how
she did this sort of immersive approach to researching and
then seemed to include a lot of people that she'd
come across or learned about in that research in the movie.
Like that's I just I don't know, I think that's cool.

Speaker 6 (01:50:17):
You know, and you know, there are there are elements
of truth in the two. And then I'll stop talking about.
You know, the Charlestown Chiefs slash Johnstown Jets that nineteen
seventy seven season that concluded so they could make the movie.
The Jets didn't go out of business, but their league folded.
Oh oh okay, you know, so this this was a
thing that was happening, and that league had only been

(01:50:38):
around for four years. The other thing that's interesting is like,
you know how outrageous it was that like, why would
anybody a hockey team in Florida. Well, you know, there
are professional hockey teams in Florida now, and it's you know,
it's gone pretty well in a couple of the places.

Speaker 1 (01:50:52):
So yeah, well I guess that's The last thing I
wanted to say was that I appreciated that the movie
went out of its way to connect the struggle of
this hockey team to what was going on in their community,
and how like it was just like acknowledging I don't know,
I felt like because it was done off of this
very specific reporting in this region or this research I

(01:51:15):
guess in this region, it like does reflect the socioeconomic
problems in the Pittsburgh area in the late seventies and
connects it to this hockey team in a way that feels,
I don't know, like class conscious, in a way that
a lot of sports moviees either aren't or feel like
overly sort of melodramatic about. It. Just felt like it

(01:51:37):
fit very cleanly into this world, and like not only
like it wasn't like the town and the team because
it was a minor league team. The team is a
part of the town, and so they're all sort of
sharing the same kind of issues.

Speaker 5 (01:51:50):
Right, Yeah, that and we you know, were talking about
this earlier. But how Reggie like, does a bunch of
you know, like desperate times call for desperate measures and
under capitalism when you know your livelihood is being threatened
a lot of people do have to act out of

(01:52:11):
desperation and do things that they would maybe not otherwise
do to survive. But and so in that manifests in
Reggie as like manipulating people in a way that's like
extremely harmful. So I guess my point is, like you
can do things out of desperation because capitalism is killing

(01:52:34):
us all without also being extremely homophobic and you know
all the other things that he does, Like it would
be one thing if all he did was just like
lie to his team and like plant that story in
the sports writer to be like I heard we were
getting bought by Florida, And if he tells his team

(01:52:56):
this and his objective is just to get morale up
so that they can win and like actually maybe have
a shot, Like I wouldn't have any problem with that
really because it's like a not a not a diabolical.

Speaker 1 (01:53:08):
Lot, but it's a victimless crime, ya.

Speaker 5 (01:53:10):
Yeah. But the fact that he's doing that plus all
manner of like blackmailing, homophobia, outing people, all this stuff,
like that's where I can't.

Speaker 6 (01:53:25):
Yeah, So you're not just gonna call him all that
old rascal red show today.

Speaker 1 (01:53:36):
So okay, let's get through it. This movie, does it
does well.

Speaker 6 (01:53:44):
I was so surprised to hear yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:53:47):
He kept checking with me to make sure that and
he was like, wait, what so it doesn't. Well, it's
a flawed metric. It doesn't. Just because it passes doesn't
mean it's a feminist movie.

Speaker 5 (01:53:57):
Right, because Lily and Francine talk about Lily's hair and
cheek bones and share and they mentioned share. And then
there's the other scene where it's Lily and then the
two other women who I don't think have names, So
by that caveat it would not pass. But they are
talking about drinking alcohol and.

Speaker 1 (01:54:20):
They're talking about addiction problem.

Speaker 5 (01:54:22):
Yeah, like yeah, so so.

Speaker 1 (01:54:25):
It's by the by the skin, it's teeth. But it
does technically pass. And I feel like I want to
I want to hand it to this movie as passing
because of it feels like in many ways the odds
are stacked against any sports movie about a men's dem
in passing. I was really surprised that it technically passes.

Speaker 6 (01:54:44):
I mean, if I can. I mean when I thought
about it in the you know, you know the theme
of your cast, I really just thought that this was
a movie that, you know, crass and guys and thee
but that the women kind of like stuck up for
each other other helped each other, didn't always. I mean,
France scene's great. I mean she tells them like right

(01:55:06):
off the bad one of their first scenes, like, you know,
you're a terrible coach, your teams stay you know, I mean, yeah, right,
you know so and and you know, and I love,
like I said, I love most of the last scene.
I still can't figure out, you know, how Lily and
Ned end up together. And I agree with you, Caitlin.

(01:55:29):
I thought that that the scene with Franccene was going
to empower her to really go but yeah, you know
that fran scene, you know, goes her own way. I
mean it's just, you know, it's sort of her own
path because she you know, cuts through, cuts through the
parade and goes down the you know, down the road
by herself. I just thought it was, you know, that

(01:55:50):
that was an element to the movie that shouldn't really
you know, be overlooked for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:55:56):
Yeah, I mean yeah, and I do think for especially
for its time and also for this genre even now,
it is like unusual for women to be included. Also,
as much as I hate Ned, he was in twin peaks,
so that's kind of fun.

Speaker 6 (01:56:12):
He played hockey at the University of New Hampshire as.

Speaker 1 (01:56:14):
Well, and we can't take that from them either, of course.

Speaker 6 (01:56:18):
And it's big time hockey.

Speaker 1 (01:56:19):
Oh is it?

Speaker 6 (01:56:20):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:56:21):
See? Okay, now I'm nice, sound like an asshole. I
didn't know that. This movie surprised me in ways. I
wasn't expecting it to. But but we should. We should
talk about the most important metric on the face of
the planet, which is our nipkele scale.

Speaker 5 (01:56:36):
Yes, a scale of zero to five nipples in which
we rate the movie. That's true, you.

Speaker 1 (01:56:42):
Heard, Yes, we need to break it down zero.

Speaker 5 (01:56:44):
To five nipples, rating the movie based on examining it
through an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, I'll give this movie
one nipple for it's a handful of female characters who,
obviously I wish the movie had done a lot more

(01:57:07):
with given more just real estate in the story to Susanne.
Only being there so that her situation could be used
as ammunition against her husband is obviously gross, but if
she had been a more meaningful character. So I guess
I'm giving it one nipple for the potential that the

(01:57:27):
movie mostly squandered. I do appreciate that Francine stands her
ground in not being willing to get back together with
her shitty husband. I agree that like most movies would
have like framed her as like the he's trying, he's trying,
and that at the end he finally gets her back

(01:57:47):
and she's the other trophy he wins. But this movie
doesn't do that, and that does count for something. Wow,
the bar is so low, but everything else the movie
does as far as it's just like rampant homophobia, ablest

(01:58:07):
slurs are getting tossed around casually, the treatment of the
one indigenous character that we see on screen, all that
kind of stuff. If anyone is looking for a movie
that features mostly men that is about men who are
affected by a steel mill closing, might I recommend The

(01:58:33):
Full Monty because it handles themes of toxic masculinity and
things like that in a much more thoughtful way. I
would say, not about hockey, though it is about men stripping,
although wow, similar ending because we go slapshot does end
in a strip tease. So anyway, I I'm glad. I

(01:58:58):
guess that this movie at least for like Jamie yours
and my generation and younger generations. It is not something
that most people are super aware of. It has not like,
it hasn't ended up as like this like piece of
classic Hollywood cinema that you must revisit. It's it doesn't
have much of a lasting legacy in that way.

Speaker 1 (01:59:18):
Well, I mean except for hockey fans, where it's not
a massive leg like in a niche way. It has
a huge legacy in the general way, not as much true.

Speaker 5 (01:59:26):
True. Yeah, So one Nipple and I will give it
to my favorite character, fran scene.

Speaker 1 (01:59:34):
I'm gonna give this movie to Nipples because it's my
birthday and I know, but I do think that like
I agree with I mean, we've talked about it at
length now where this movie is not generous in so
many ways. It is wildly homophobic the one native character
it represents, which is also I think that Joe Nolan

(01:59:56):
is the only non white character who really appears in
this movie meaningfully in any way, which again is not necessary,
especially because of the region you're in. It's like, there's
plenty of diversity to be found in this region. I
know that hockey is predominantly a white sport, but it's
a movie. You can do whatever the fuck you want.
But I do think that this movie is I don't know,

(02:00:18):
I mean a sports comedy in the seventies. Having women
included it at all feels kind of like a miracle
to me. And having a successful sports movie written by
a woman feels kind of like a miracle to me
for this era. And so I want.

Speaker 5 (02:00:33):
To miracle another hockey movie.

Speaker 1 (02:00:36):
Hate it, but that's like the exact kind of corny
ass movie I'm talking about where all the girls are like,
you've got this baby, and you're like, oh my god. Like,
I do think that this movie has incredible fault. It's
like at the end because because we've talked about so
many broad comedies on this show, and all of the
swings are huge, and when they hit, they hit, and

(02:00:57):
when they're bad, they're awful. They're almost worse than you
can find in any genre, right, And I think the
same is true in horror or like any like broad
niche genre that tends to be true. And so this
movie is wildly dated. I understand why it is not popular.
We watched I'm not even recommending it really, I just
was surprised by the fact that women were presented in

(02:01:21):
for the most part, in empathetic way, even though I
did not agree with how everyone everyone's arc was resolved.
So I'm gonna go too, and I'm gonna give one
different scene because she rocks, and one to Lily because
she deserved better. And I hope that she you know,
divorced ned six months later or whatever.

Speaker 5 (02:01:40):
Fingers crossed?

Speaker 1 (02:01:42):
Dad, what would you give this movie?

Speaker 6 (02:01:44):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:01:44):
Based on his portrayal of women intersectionally.

Speaker 6 (02:01:48):
Boy, I have to I have to do this. I'm
not trained. I'm not sure.

Speaker 5 (02:01:53):
Whatever feels right in your heart.

Speaker 6 (02:01:55):
Yes, I guess two just because too, well, no, just
because too. And I have to pick characters too.

Speaker 5 (02:02:09):
You can do you can distribute them or you can
keep them whatever you want to do.

Speaker 6 (02:02:14):
I mean, I like, I don't know, I just like
for inscene is A is a great character, you know,
I mean I like that part of you, know how
she's like, you know, I don't care if you you know,
I know you, you know, I know you as a person,
and you know you know you might be able to
fool everybody else, you know, but you can't fool me
anymore and goes the round the way and you know again,

(02:02:35):
missus missus Hanrahan I never remember her first. I just
think that's a touching kind of a but that's that's
a you know, that's quite a scene with her, and
it's it's serious and funny, and I just really thought
that that was a you know, probably back in the
day it was like, oh, that's a gratuitous thing, you know,

(02:02:57):
like look at this thing, but you know, looked at
now and her story and everything like that, I think that's. Yeah.
I don't know what to say. I can't say that
I think that's great, but you know, I mean, it's
it's one that like sticks with me anyway, you know.

Speaker 5 (02:03:12):
I know what you mean. It would be a fine
scene if the thing that happens after it didn't happen exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:03:18):
Right, right. That's why it's like this movie is just
like frustrating in that way where you're like, wow, this
is representation or like a character you would not normally
see in a broad comedy, but then they're treated so
poorly that you're like, well, why why did you go
out of your way to do that? If you were
just going to treat them as a plot point and
never showed them again, which I think is also inherent

(02:03:40):
to this genre in the ways that I don't know.
I found it especially frustrating too, because it's like I
thought Suzanne was in the one scene she had was
presented with empathy and she was cool, and it was like, oh,
this is really and then like we were talking about,
like she's treated horrifically and never get to see her again.

(02:04:01):
We don't know what happens to her, and the movie
doesn't really seem to have interest in it because she
was ultimately just a plot point to get read to
win to the next step.

Speaker 5 (02:04:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:04:10):
So complicated, a more complicated movie than I was expecting.
And I'm glad we talked about it.

Speaker 5 (02:04:17):
Yes, indeed, and thanks for joining us, sad mister Mike.

Speaker 6 (02:04:21):
Oh hey, thanks for having me along.

Speaker 1 (02:04:23):
Happy to do it. Yeah, do you have anything you
want to plug?

Speaker 5 (02:04:28):
Yeah? Where can people follow you on Twitter?

Speaker 6 (02:04:29):
I don't have us. There's no need to follow me
on Twitter. My uh, my days are done, my days
of mouthing off, and I just uh, you know which,
I didn't do that much. I was not I was
not the king of the hot takes and now I
am the king of the silent take. I'll just I'll
just read along with you all. Nice well, well, you

(02:04:50):
know I could, I could plug this, you know, this,
this podcast, a certain book about hot dogs. You know,
there's always something, but simply.

Speaker 1 (02:04:59):
Just google a book about hot Yeah. All right, well
well Dad, I really thank you for for coming on
the show.

Speaker 6 (02:05:07):
And I really can't believe you let us. You badgered
us into doing this.

Speaker 1 (02:05:13):
I'm so glad we did, though I don't know. It's
my birthday. I'm a dictator and I need to do
whatever I want.

Speaker 5 (02:05:20):
Yeah, happy birthday, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (02:05:22):
Thank you.

Speaker 6 (02:05:22):
This was a way to go, jam Happy birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:05:25):
I remember he remembered it, and that's no I this
this episode was very special to me, both of you,
So thank you. I appreciate it, and I'm really glad
we got to do it.

Speaker 5 (02:05:38):
Love you, Jamie, Love you too.

Speaker 6 (02:05:40):
Way to go, Way to go. Team We did.

Speaker 5 (02:05:42):
We won, We won the championship game. We won.

Speaker 1 (02:05:46):
We we randomly did his strip tease and somehow we
went there.

Speaker 6 (02:05:50):
The best podcast in the Federal League.

Speaker 1 (02:05:53):
Yeah, yeah, we are kind of and I say this
with love, we are kind of a minor league podcast.
And and yet our fan base is intense and they
fill the stands and we appreciate that we do because
to be a big podcast, you have to talk about
murder in a dishonest way and we don't do that.
We don't. Or you have to be like a fascist,

(02:06:14):
so it's fine, or you have to be I know
a lot about sports and we don't.

Speaker 5 (02:06:19):
We clearly demonstrated that today that we do not know.

Speaker 8 (02:06:23):
Yeah, if there was any reason that you both did,
you both did great.

Speaker 5 (02:06:28):
Thank you, Thanks so much.

Speaker 1 (02:06:31):
You can find us on.

Speaker 5 (02:06:35):
We Are Nothing without the validation of men.

Speaker 1 (02:06:38):
It's true of dad.

Speaker 6 (02:06:43):
Oh no, it's so hard.

Speaker 5 (02:06:44):
I only I only he's crying.

Speaker 1 (02:06:47):
He's crying. There. You can find us online up at
Bechdel Cast on Instagram and Twitter. You can sign up
for Patreon aka Patreon, patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast,
where you get two bonus epis said every month for
mere five dollars, and also get access to about one
hundred and fifty episodes of back catalog on the Patreon Wow.

(02:07:09):
And it's my birthday over there this month too, so
we really value birthdays on this podcast. So it's true.
We'll be covering Little Shop of Horrors and a second
one that on the day of this recording, I have
not yet decided my second evil pick for the Patreon
But well, I will think of something and it will
be annoying, So head over there.

Speaker 6 (02:07:29):
For that, Caitlin. When it comes, happy birthday to YouTube,
thank you.

Speaker 5 (02:07:33):
So much, it will be in about eight months.

Speaker 6 (02:07:38):
Okay, something like that, so just keep that in mind.
It's coming. Yeah, I don't want to miss out my chance.

Speaker 5 (02:07:43):
Thank you so much. And you can also get our
merch at teapublic dot com. Slash the Bechdel Cast for
our glorious items available for purchase at any time.

Speaker 1 (02:07:58):
And with that, why don't we get on this local
parade float and lie about our wives leaving us.

Speaker 5 (02:08:06):
Let's do it. Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a
production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis,
produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme
song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski.

(02:08:26):
Our logo in merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and
a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about
the podcast, please visit linktree Slash Bechdel Cast

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