Ruby Sparks with Jesse David Fox

On this episode, Jamie and Caitlin write special guest Jesse David Fox into existence so they can all discuss Ruby Sparks!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdecast. The questions asked if movies have.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, f and
bast start changing it with the Bechdel cast.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlyn, I have a secret what. I
wrote a story about a character named Jamie Loftus, and
then we were like hosting a podcast together in my story.
And then suddenly.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Bur Bonour, wow you're feel Wait Jesse, can you see Jamie?
Oh wow your homage?

Speaker 1 (00:39):
She shut them Kitleen, Oh shit them you too, bark
bark anyway.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Hi. Wow. I panics because I was like, I know
the bit I want to do, but I don't have
the skills. I can't. I'm ill equipped, but I wrote
and fringe we.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Anyway, Hi, this is the Bechdel Test. My name is
Caitlin Dorante, my.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Name is Jamie Loftus, and I'm controlled by Caitlyn Dorante.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Mmm, sorry about it.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
I frequently find that everything in my life changes. I
have friends, I lose them. I'm on all fours, barking
like a dog. I'm calling Caitlyn a genius non stop.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's honestly kind of an incredible way to live. You know,
the surrender of free will has its drawbacks, but you
know she does let me go to sleep. Sometimes You're welcome.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
You're a genius, yes, I know. Anyway, this is our
show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point.
But Jamie, my creation, what is it?

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Well? The Bechdel Test is a media metric created originally
by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace Test.
A lot of versions of the test. The version we
use is this one. We require that there be two
characters of a marginalized gender with names talking to each
other about something other than a man for more than

(02:17):
two lines of dialogue in some sort of meaningful way.
Can't really be more specific than that you know it
when you see it. So those are sort of our requirements. God,
this is like such an interesting movie to talk about
in regards to the Bechdel Test, because I feel like
this movie came out in a stretch of time where

(02:41):
the Bechdel Test was also frequently discussed, often in a
way that I feel like it is no longer discussed
now in a good way. I'm excited to talk about
this movie same And we have a returning guest.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
We sure do. Our guest is the senior editor at Vulture.
He's the host of Good One podcast, and his book,
entitled comedy Book Boom, is out on November seventh. It's
Jesse David Fox.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
Welcome back. Hello.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
I was trying to think it if I know any
words in French, and I don't. That's the word.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
And a happy bonjor to you and happy book. Congratulations
on the book.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
Oh, thank you so much. Congratulations on your book.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Thank you. I was baiting you.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I made Jamie write that book. Isn't that a congratulation.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
You wrote every word for her to sit down to.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Type to rewrite. Yes, You're welcome again.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Mister Haitlin did not want to eat a hot dog,
and so they went really like four dy chest to
find a way to get the book written. Welcome back.
I realized as we were preparing for this episode, because
we're covering Ruby Sparks twenty twelve, that on your first
episode we also kind of did not a similar plot,

(03:51):
but we did her with you years and years ago,
and it's yet another movie about a.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
Man that a writer creating a contra that he can
control as a way of getting over an ex girlfriend
that also was a failure because he tried to control
that relationship.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah. Yeah, Like he's the sort of guy I mean,
I guess that they're still out there. I've met them.
They're still around. They're kind of an unkillable mutant species.
But it is interesting that these two movies. Yeah, they're
a guy that's like, I couldn't be a bad person.
I'm shy you.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
It was the cultural zenith of that guy as hero
that's shorthand for somewhat redeemable because it's this type of guy. Now,
this movie, I think, not to get ahead of it,
I'm trying to remember if this watching this movie helped
me get over that part of myself that also thought
that about like me that was like, well, I'm quiet,

(04:47):
so I guess I'm nice. Or did this movie reinforce
that feeling in me.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
I'm really excited to talk to you about that because
this movie is now eleven years old, and it's like
we would have covered this movie very differently when this
show started seven years ago.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, for sure, and by.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Differently, I mean worse because you grow in all that stuff.
I'm so excited to talk about this movie. I was
pleasantly surprised by how much it broke my brain. But Jesse,
what is your history with this film?

Speaker 4 (05:21):
I didn't see it in theaters, but I do believe
I saw it soon after, but I can't totally remember when.
But I do feel like this type of movie like Fox, Searchlight,
rom Com Adjacent or whatever, was like my favorite type
of movie, like Zoe Cazant's starring.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Movies directors of Little Miss Sunshine. You're like, yes, I'm listening.
I'm listening.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Yes, all of this was like exactly my aesthetics. So
I know I saw it. I assume like once it
was on was streaming around that. I don't know how
I saw it, but I know I saw it and then.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
On demand or something disgusting.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
And then I was like, I had a memory of
this discourse around this and Zoe's sort of relationship to
the termatic Pixie dream Girl. I remember reading an interview
she said X and then I realized, oh, that was
that interview I did with her where I asked her
about like, now, how she feels because the creator of
the termatic Pixie dream Girl regretted it, and then she

(06:18):
was sort of the champion of how maybe the term,
unlike the Bechdel test, was sort of like sloppily applied
at the time.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yes, and that's like I totally agree. I mean, you
can't tell someone how to, you know, deal with their
own word that they made popular, and like Nathan Raven
is amazing, But it did feel like retracting it entirely
was an overcorrection. It was just like, no, it's a thing,
but just like not in every single case that someone

(06:47):
says it is right, yes, right.

Speaker 4 (06:49):
It became a way to fairly quickly disregard female performances
and female characters so much so then if you then reject,
you're like, well then are we Then we forgot The
first point was to criticize a type of female character
that this movie also was trying to criticize exactly. And
then now we're back to partly the aesthetics of this

(07:12):
character doesn't exist in the same way anymore, because like
it was so associated with like certain types of haircuts
and clothes.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
My minit right, she's got the bangs, she's got the
little cap sleeve dresses and you're like, yep, yep, we
were there, we saw it.

Speaker 4 (07:25):
Yeah, So because for your people have bangs, I don't know,
like I don't know gen Z's relationship to this idea. Yeah,
and it seems like it, if anything, it has like
it's right for a resurgence, right. It is like not
so removed from like girl Dinner or whatever.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
Right. I think that this can like exist in conversation
with I don't know what, like whatever every generation things
that they've solved things and reinvented the wheel, and they
never have and they never will. And that's just sort
of my view on the state of things. And yeah,
it's like gen Z has their version of these too.
That will also be embarrassing to look back on ten

(08:03):
years from now. I was thinking of Girl Dinner, Girl
Math Girl, which is like something that I've sort of
let fly at different points as well. When there's that
Christmas in a line of like you haven't written a woman,
You've written a girl, And I'm like, and what do
you mean by what you know?

Speaker 1 (08:20):
What are you saying?

Speaker 4 (08:22):
What side do you then take by saying that I
am Switzerland.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
I think let the girls do what they want. Let
the girls do what they want.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
That character makes some like very good points, and then
he makes some very bad points throughout the movie. He's
very inconsistent.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
I mean, but that's kind of what I appreciated about him.
I'm like, that seems like a guy that exists in
the world where he's like, I love my wife so much,
but I would change her if I could.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
And you're like, yeah, he is a similar you know,
insomuch as this movie's in conversation with like five hundred
Days of Summer. He like is very much in the
same ilk as like the DOOTI Er the more do
characters of that movie. Yeah, he was like this version
in that movie. They're both browier than the lead, but

(09:08):
also like the conscience of the movie because in that
movie is like I would give my wife bigger tits
if I could, but in retrospect it wouldn't change anything, right.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
But I love that broad Yeah, the chad conscience of
the film.

Speaker 4 (09:23):
So it is interesting to be like, is everything this
character says ultimately the person we should be supporting there is? Yeah,
because that line is the like philosophical thesis I guess
of the movie.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
I mean, yeah, way more so than anything Calvin e
versus or for sure, I didn't make that connection. I also,
I mean, this movie feels very much a cousin to
five hundred Days of Summer. I haven't seen five hundred
Days of Summer recently. Yeah, I mean I haven't really
revisited it. But I was at Ikea with a man
recently and was like, wow, is something bad about to

(10:00):
happen to me?

Speaker 4 (10:01):
Did you run around?

Speaker 3 (10:03):
No, very intentionally stayed stills of behavior. I tried to
really stay as still as possible and really like stay
the path and get the plates I had come there for.
Another similarity that this movie had with five Hundred Days
the Summer is that I hate the last scene.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
Yes, sure, very similar last seed?

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Similar? Yes.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I can't wait to talk about the ending of this
movie and the rest of it. All right, James, what
is your relationship with this movie?

Speaker 3 (10:35):
Ruby Sparks, I had not seen this movie, and I
didn't know a lot about it. I think that we
were all there in the twenty tens Manic Pixie dream
Girl mess of attempt to have a conversation, you know,
which we were a part of, and like, I just
never got to this movie because based off of like
what I was catching from this conversation, it seemed like

(10:57):
to me it was framed as a movie that was
purpose trading these tropes as opposed to criticizing and interacting
with them. And I think that that just like stuck
in my head. And also, to be fair, the marketing
does not really do much to change your mind. I
went back and watched the trailer as well as the
original reviews of this movie, which I'm like, Zoe Cazan

(11:19):
kind of a playing a game of forty chess there,
because it's like everyone received this as like a quirky
what was the god? The Atlantic review Ruby sparks a
charming tale of boy makes girl, and You're like, uh
huh uh huh uh huh did they see the scene
where he made her bark like a dog and call
him a genius? Apparently they didn't. But yeah, I had

(11:39):
avoided this movie because I thought it was a perpetrator
and not a and I was really pleasantly surprised by
this movie. I really enjoyed it. I mean there's stuff
about it that I would just love a rundown of
what the studio notes were for this movie, because I
feel like that last scene doesn't feel consistent with what
is happening even minutes before. And I think Zoe Czanne

(12:03):
is a terrific writer, and so I'm like, I just
don't think she would do that. But there's a lot
of cool stuff in this movie that I feel like
I haven't seen done quite this well in other places.
I liked it, Caitlin, What's your History?

Speaker 1 (12:18):
I also had never seen it, and I think I
had a very similar experience as you, Jamie, as far
as like people would talk about it all the time
in a pretty critical way, and either I misunderstood what
they were criticizing, or the people who were criticizing it

(12:38):
misunderstood what the movie was. Either way, I also thought
it was like, Wow, a classic example of a manic
pixie dream girl presented uncritically, and isn't that awesome? And
so I also was just like, I don't really feel
compelled to watch this, or again, I might have been
misunderstanding what people were saying about it. Way, I'd never

(13:00):
seen it, and so when I was watching it, I
was like, wait a minute, the things I thought about
this movie don't seem to be the things that are
actually here in this movie. So I found it refreshing.
In some ways, I found it challenging, Like I was like, wow,
what hang on? And I think I'm going to like

(13:21):
be processing a lot of my thoughts about this movie
in real time on this episode. But I was pleasantly
surprised by it, especially going in with like pretty low
expectations based on the buzz.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
I do feel like if the ending was fused with
a bit it would like do really well coming out
right now. And also if the outfits were better.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
Well, I think they were good for the time.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
At the time, they were incredible.

Speaker 4 (13:46):
Well honestly, that is like truly the most dating part
of my life. So literally every single person I dated
for like seven years stress like that. So I'm like,
that's the feminine ideal of like what I imagine people
should dress like, So I don't have a problem. He
dressed terribly. He dressed also only in a tan and green.
It was like such a clear director.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
Stoy is he Shaggy from Scooby Doo.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
He was serving Shaggy the whole movie, including on the poster.

Speaker 4 (14:12):
But I do think the ending is even two years
later or whenever, like inside Eama, Shumer became the most
popular show on television. The studio notes would be like end.
It's the exact opposite way, like we want this to
be the most heavy handed ending possible.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah, he would get hit by a eighteen wheel yeer
a couple of years later.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
This movie, I will say, proves a theory that I
was recently revisiting, or at least Zoe Cuzam feels the
same way because it is fiction. But that the moment
someone becomes famous, they stop maturing forever, or at least
stop maturing in some ways forever. Yeah, and that's Calvin
to the core. He's behaving so nineteen, this entire movie

(14:58):
in spite of being thirty.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, shall I do the recap and then we'll go
from there.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Let's recap.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Oh wait, let's take a break first, and then we'll
come back.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
And we're back.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Okay, here is the recap. We open on a silhouetted
image of a woman being like, there you are. I've
been looking for you, tee. What why are you looking
at me like that?

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Zoe zan is he he hahi on the storm, Yes,
I love it, And then Calvin Weirfields wakes up.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
That's Paul Dano. He was having a dream about this woman.
Calvin is a writer who ten years ago wrote an
acclaimed novel when he was only nineteen, but he since
has not been able to write much of anything.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
I found these scenes triggering.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
I was like, relatable much. We see him, like, you know,
sitting down trying to write, but his writer's block is
very intense, so we see him instead hanging out with
his dog, Scottie. He hangs out with his brother Harry
played by Chrismasina. Awesome baffling. How in what world are

(16:27):
they brothers.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
And grew up seemingly in California despite he seems so
Midwestern and him the most New york Man.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
Right. I've also read in like the original press tour,
like both Paul Dana and Christmasina were like, We're aware
we look nothing alike, but we enjoyed it. You're like, okay, okay, okay, boys.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
So Calvin seems to not have much in the way
of friends. He seems to struggle to meet and connect
with people. He goes to a therapist, Elliott Gold. His
name is doctor Rosenthal or something, but Elliott Gold is
his therapist. He gives Calvin a little writing assignment to

(17:12):
try to help him to start writing again, and the
assignment is to write a page where someone meets Calvin's dog,
Scottie and likes the dog for who he is, despite
him being skittish and slobbery. Then that night, Calvin has
a dream about the same woman who we will come

(17:33):
to know as Ruby Sparks.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think their writing in this scene is so good
because she's just like challenging him in such a movie
way where I watched this movie back to back twice
and watching that scene go back, where it's like I
would have loved that exchange when I was in high school.
I'm like, Wow, she's not like other girls. She's really
like given him, like she's a handful. But when you

(17:59):
watch that scene back, like she's challenging him in the
safest way possible, Like she's only ever allowed to challenge
him in a way that is safe for him.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Also, she's not like other girls. She doesn't know who
f Scott Fitzgerald is.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, and he gets to tell her for how acclaimed
of an author is. The books around this movie are
so they are like a teenager's collection of books.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Catcher in the Rye, Great Gats be like the stuff
that you read because you're supposed you like are required
to in high school.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah, it really felt like James Franco novelist era unfortunately.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
Which is also this time.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Anyway, So this dream woman meets and likes Scottie the Dog,
and then Calvin wakes up from this dream suddenly very
inspired by the woman, and he starts writing page after
page about Ruby Sparks. He has his brother Harry read
what he's written of this manuscript so far, and Harry

(19:05):
basically tells him that Calvin does not understand women, and
that he's like written a very like tropy manic pixie
dreamgirl type and that no one is going to want
to read this.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
This Chad is a literary critic. He is absolutely killing
it in this scene. We'll get back to how his
wife is treated, because we are told a lot about her,
even though we see her one time and she's like,
why is this bra here? You're like, good job movie.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
So he's a sports agent but able to like read
and digest a short story in like a dinner with
his brother.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
I really, I actually really liked that choice. I like
that it is not challenged. They're like, yeah, he's a
bit of a reader when he's not managing sports?

Speaker 4 (19:52):
Is it a It's also like they let the how
you code the actors in your brain do so much
work of filling out who these people are, Like, well,
he's a Christmas an a type, so obviously he's a
sport agent. You won't realize that until like way later
in the movie.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
So, despite his brother's criticism, Calvin continues to fantasize about
and write about Ruby, writing this story where she and
a guy very much like himself down to like that
character also being named Calvin, being so in love with
each other. One day, as he is about to leave

(20:33):
home for a meeting, a woman is suddenly in Calvin's kitchen,
and this woman is Ruby Sparks, played by Zoe Kazan.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
Ruby. Ruby what her most recent episode, I already brought
up Shaggy. This is what I bring to the show.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
I mean, well, Shaggy the dog more like Scottie the dog,
who I think is the best character in the movie
because he pisses on Calvin's bed and that makes him
mask who he is.

Speaker 4 (21:04):
Do you think that was inspired by Calvin and Hobbes
or they guess the image of Oh no, I guess Calvin.
Calvin is the one that peeces though.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Oh, because Calvin and Hobbes, Hobbes and Shaw. Anyway, think
about it, you know.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Scotti and Calvin, we got there, Scotty and Calvin exactly.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
The three most iconic duos of the last thirty years.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yes, yes, it's all making sense.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay. So Ruby Sparks is in Calvin's kitchen and she
appears to be a real life person who does not
realize she is a figment of Calvin's imagination that has
magically materialized, and he will not tell her that for
a long time. Anyway, Calvin, he's freaking out. He thinks

(21:50):
he's hallucinating, that he's like, you know, losing his mind,
and Ruby is just like, what's wrong, babe? Is everything? Okay?
So Calvin tries to sneak out of the house, but
Ruby's like, where are you going? Can I come with you?
So she rides along with him, but then he ditches
her because he's meeting up with this woman, Mabel played

(22:11):
by Alia Shokut, who gave him her number at a
book event. Because she's like kind of like this groupie
type who's like trying to sleep with him, and he
doesn't have any friends, so this is like the person
he called. They go out for coffee, but Ruby spots
them and thinks Calvin is cheating on her, so Ruby

(22:32):
starts to make a commotion and he figures no one
else can hear or see Ruby, but everyone around him
is like, yes, I can see this woman. So Ruby
is real in the sense that she now exists in
the world and everyone can see her, and Calvin is like, Wow,
I have a real life girlfriend. Now awesome, And then

(22:54):
we get this montage of like them being in love.
They're going to a zombie film festival at the Hall
would Forever Cemetery. They're going to an arcade.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
Like attempt at the IKEA scene.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah, yeah, they do run through. Is it a video
game place?

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yea, sort of like an arcade.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, it is a pitch perfect. This part of this
movie is those movies, and at this point you're watching
a probably like, oh, I guess it's just like another
one of those movies. If you didn't know that this
was making fun of that, you'd just be like, Oh,
I guess we're just going to do that, And I
haven't seen that for a while.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
So involuntarily like Regina Spector starts playing in the back
of your head and you're like, no, no, I didn't
consent to this, right.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
So then Calvin tells his brother how Ruby is real now,
and Harry is like, that's not possible. Talk to your
therapist because you've lost your mind. But then Calvin introduces
Harry to Ruby. Harry still thinks it's some kind of hoax,
like maybe she's an impostor who's trying to trick Calvin.
So Harry tells Calvin to write something about her and

(23:57):
if it comes true, then they'll know that this real.
So Calvin writes that Ruby speaks fluent French, and then
suddenly Ruby is speaking fluent French, and Harry is like, wow,
this is awesome. You can make her do anything you want.
You can give her huge titties, you can you know,
change her.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
And sleep where he's really going, leaning into the sports
agent side of his character.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Not the sympathetic brothers like you need more therapy. But
now he's like, well, now that I know you're okay,
immediately my second order.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
And don't give blow jobs after a couple months. That scene,
I mean, it's a low for that character, but again,
very rewatchable scene where Calvin is like, I wouldn't change
a hair in Ruby's head. She's amazing.

Speaker 4 (24:45):
I love for Can I ask since I've seen this before,
so I knew where it was going at that moment,
were you both still being like maybe fuck this movie?
Like maybe this movie is doing.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Is I couldn't tell.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
Yeah, cool because like rewatching that's the first time, like
my stomach starts hurting or whatever, or like or you're
just like, don't do this. These people like be different
people already.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
I do know that I was still very on the
fence at that point in the movie. But I think that,
like Paul Dano's performance is really good because on the
second watch, I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't think I
believed him the first time. The way that he says it.
It's like, I think, honestly where I was like, maybe
this movie is interesting and good because when I saw
it was written by Zoe kuzannam okay, okay, promising, And

(25:29):
then when he first calls his ex girlfriend a slut
in therapy, I'm like, yeah, maybe this movie is going
to be which if you haven't seen this movie, that
sounds like a very bizarre comment to be like, maybe
this movie rules, but like it's to show the like sympathetic,
like tortured artist writer character and then have him say
something awful early on in a way that, like, even

(25:50):
in twenty twelve, you would be like, well, that's an
obviously cruel thing to say about someone. This person lacks introspection,
I would get.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah. I think where I was was because we've seen
him say pretty nasty things about women before this, and
then the way he just describes and characterizes Ruby. I
was like, oh, he's a shitty person, yeah, and he
does not respect when when.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
He gives her the backstory, Oh, we'll talk about it.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, yes. But I was like, oh, I bet he
is going to try to change and manipulate Ruby, especially
because he doesn't tell her right away that she's a
figment of his imagination. But I wasn't sure. Well, I
wasn't sure if the movie was going to be critical
of his behavior or just be like here it is,

(26:39):
isn't this squirky? So at that point I wasn't sure
where was going to go.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
Also, like the language, especially twenty twelve, especially to a
male audience member, You're like, yeah, that's how guys talk
or whatever, like what do you even note? Like the
subtlety of it is even more subtle than where I
guess guys more frequently called women's sluts, not necessarily as
a pejorative, but like clearly Zoe knew, Like you see

(27:04):
it now, they're like, oh, this is actually she was
giving bread crumbs. I guess in the first act.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, it's such a rewatchable movie. It's so cool where
it's like, yeah, there are the big obvious things where
you're like, oh, I don't I don't like this guy.
But I didn't even realize all of the clues that
they leave behind of like what a piece of shitty is?
Just like in real life, what.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
A treat mister snowman? I gave you all the clue
or what is plan? I gave you all the clues?

Speaker 3 (27:29):
That's from the Snowman. Some man was a guy, right,
but was a snowman?

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Refer to our Matreon episode about truly my Memory.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
I'm like many Black Mind wipes after every episode.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
I don't know why did.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
I don't know why we did.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
I don't know why we covered that, but I think
it was just like.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Lockdown and let's do something amazing. Cool, Let's bring joy
to the okay to the world.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Okay. So well, Harry is like, wow, you can change
her and make her do whatever you want, and Calvin's like, no,
I'm never going to write about her again, and he
locks his manuscript away in a drawer. But after some time,
Calvin starts to realize that Ruby isn't this idealized version
of a woman who he fictionalized, that she's a real

(28:22):
person who has free will. She isn't at his beck
and call all the time, you know, sometimes she's too
tired for sex. She wants to get a job at
a coffee shop so that she doesn't have to be
financially dependent on him.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
The way that he reacts to her wanting a job
by being like, look over here, this thing I just
said no to you can have it. Now, shut up
about getting a job. And you're like, oh, no, what
year is a oh? And that's howats all women?

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Mm hm. And then Ruby is also starting to realize
that Calvin is a pretty shitty boyfriend and person, especially
after they go to this trip to visit calvin mom
played by Annette Benning and her husband Antonio benderis where
the whole time, Calvin is being just like kind of mean,

(29:10):
and he's very stubborn. He's no fun to be around.
He's disrespectful, and Ruby calls him out for it, and
she also tells him that she's lonely. She wants to
make friends. She wants to take an art class and
spend a few nights at her own apartment each week.
So she's, you know, trying to establish healthy boundaries. And
he does not like this. He gets more and more insecure.

(29:34):
He cannot deal with her being her own person.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
He doesn't want her to have friends.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Mm hmm. And one night, when she's out with her
friends from her class, he takes the manuscript that he
was writing about Ruby. He takes it back out of
the drawer and writes Ruby was miserable without Calvin. And
then he immediately gets a call from Ruby saying I
want to come home. And then she becomes cartoonishly clingy,

(30:03):
and codependence.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
Gets do some acting. It's a big yes.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
It's so good in the yes, yeah, yep, which he
starts to feel suffocated by this clinginess, so then he
types another sentence that Ruby is filled with effervescent joy,
and then she becomes cartoonishly and annoyingly joyous.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
Annoying to him, I think this is I think it's
very cute to.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Those it's everything but the like being woken up by
a baby deer kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
And now he's concerned that she's only happy because he
wrote her to be happy, but he wants to be
able to make her organically value concern, so then he
writes Ruby was just Ruby happy or sad however she felt,
and now it seems like she's experiencing mood swings and

(30:57):
that she doesn't really have control over her own emotions,
and he's trying to make her feel better. He's like,
let's go to this book party. And they go to
this party hosted by another writer played by Steve Coogan
who tries to come on to Ruby, and then Calvin
catches them together in a swimming pool when they're in

(31:19):
their underwear, so Calvin freaks out and brings her home.
There's a whole interaction also between Calvin and his ex
girlfriend Lyla at this party. We'll talk about that later,
but at home, Calvin is like, Ruby, you embarrassed me.
You're supposed to be my girlfriend, so act like it,
and they have this whole argument that will unpack later,

(31:42):
but basically, she's like, you don't get to decide what
I do and what I don't do, Like I'm my
own person. And he's like, you want to bet because
I can make you do whatever I want. And she's like, what.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
This scene is brutal, absolute hard to watch.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
I measure writing it for yourself to do with yours.
She Ruby sparks herself.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Kill you guys, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah? Really wild? But Calvin goes to his typewriter and
there's a whole scene that plays out like a horror
movie where he types a bunch of stuff and makes
her do things and prevents her from doing other things,
such as leaving, to show her that she is his creation,
and she's obviously horrified and betrayed and she's sobbing. And

(32:33):
then when she finally has the opportunity, she runs away.
And then Calvin, I guess, realizing that he shouldn't have
done all that stuff, returns to his typewriter and writes
as soon as Ruby left the house, the past released her.
She was no longer Calvin's creation. She was free, and

(32:54):
he is devastated that she's gone, But again he is
like it was the right thing to do, and we're
like duh. And then the movie ends with Calvin turning
this story that just unfolded into a new novel. The
novel gets published, people read it, they love it. And
then one day Calvin is walking Scottie the dog in

(33:18):
the park and Scotty runs over.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
The same scene where it's like sort of a Frankenstein
of yeah, kind of eternal Sunshine and the end of
five hundred Days of Summer.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, where Scotty runs over to Ruby, who does not
recognize Calvin or remember anything about their relationship since he
had like released her from the past, And then they
start chatting and it's implied that they're going to reconnect
and possibly like get together. The end run the other

(33:53):
way truly. So that's the movie. Let's take another quick
break and we'll be back to discuss, and we're back. Okay,

(34:15):
we start?

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Where can we start?

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Where can we start?

Speaker 3 (34:21):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Again. I was expecting something very different based on the
comments and criticism I had heard about this movie in
years past, and was surprised to learn that it is
like to some extent, an indictment of the type of
like misogynist man who is not capable of a relationship

(34:44):
with a real human woman because he projects some fantasy
or ideal onto her. Then he resents her.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Movie that we've covered with Jesse before.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
What a man falling in love with falt some one
who's not a real woman.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Yeah, their idea of who they are.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, And then resents when she cannot live up to
his like projection or idealized version of her, and he
resents that she has free will, and which is very
abusive along the way.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
The core of this movie is he hates that his
girlfriends have free will. Unfortunate.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yes, yeah, it's sort of my main problem with the movie,
not philosophically, but sort of, Well, the ending is a
whole other thing, but like they spend so much time
with him trying to prove that he's not going crazy
that it then underlines the sort of like magic of
it where I feel like if he accepted that she exists,
his actions would feel less because of the magical concept

(35:48):
and more because of his behavior, you know what I mean.
Like it sometimes I feel like it's supposed to be
ambiguous if he's making decisions, because like, well, you can't
have a job, you don't have a social security number,
you're a fake person or whatever. Yeah, But I only
am thinking that because they spend so much time, and
that seems like such a studio thing, being like, no
one's gonna believe this. You have to have three different

(36:08):
characters verified, right, And I think that's partly like first
time screenwriter getting to make a movie. She can't be
like nine million movies do. Like every single Woody Allen
movie literally does this where they're just like, some magical
thing happens and they don't have to prove it. And
I think this is all to say. I do think
it obscures the like, oh, I'm watching a rom com,

(36:33):
like a magical rom com quality to it, because you're like, oh,
it's a magical rom com where this thing happens. I
guess it's also how he's able to justify why this
is a book at the end of it.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Also, I feel like setting up the therapist character and
then having him not included for the vast majority of
the movie. I'm like, he has to find out like
if that's gonna be the thrust, like or maybe don't
include that character. I don't know. I was confused about.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
I also thought he's a really well written, therapist and
really well performed. He goes can it be bad and goes,
I'd like for it to be very bad. I was like,
everything about that seed is perfectly and then he's just gone, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
I saw a piece in Collider a couple of years
ago in twenty and twenty one ever heard of it
by Tony Oysen, which you know it's I had this
thought as I was watching, and I think that this
is maybe a trapping of current film criticism where you're like,
this movie is actually a horror movie. Everything about that, Yeah,

(37:27):
But I do think that this writer kind of unpacked
that pretty well, and save for the ending, the movie
kind of plays out that way in a way that
feels mostly intentional. But I've seen this. I've seen this
movie characterize so many different ways in different like i've
seen a characterize, and I think the way that we're
going to be coming at it today where this is
like a I think, like such a well done sort

(37:51):
of takedown of this like stock character that viewers in
twenty twelve weren't even prepared and like did not maybe
get it. I also described when it came out as
more of a commentary on like the beginning of a
relationship versus the difficult reality of actually being with someone,
which I feel like is referenced more in the relationship

(38:14):
between the brothers of Like, No, she's a person, and like,
things will not be amazing every day and it's not
going to be like dick sucking city. That's not how
a relationship works, and he's like, I'm sure, sure, Christmas, Na,
I'm not gonna get my like anyways. So there's that
read of it as well, and I've seen Zoe xand

(38:34):
speak to both parts of it, so I just want
to acknowledge that, but I am more interested in what
we're talking about. You're like, yeah, relationships are hard, But
I feel like that would play out if the story
wasn't so based in control of one over the other,
because it's like, I think that you can have that
discussion in a very like surface sense, but it only

(38:56):
applies to this couple so far, because it's like he
is ge peddling the shit out of her the entire
Like she can barely participate in their relationship because of
the controls that are the reason that she's even there.
So I don't know. Yeah, that rate of it didn't
hit for me as much.

Speaker 4 (39:13):
If anything, I feel like it uses that theme as
a sort of like trojan horse for like the actual
like satirical point is making, right, Like I think that's
essentially like what five Hundred Days of Summer is about, right, Like,
insomuch as five hundred Days of Summer does not feel
like this movie at all, even though like that is

(39:34):
essentially the point of five hundred Day Summer is that
because by the she barks like a dog part, you're like, oh,
holy shit, like that scene a shot like a horror film.
You can see a version of this with a different
third act that become like a Black Mirror episode, like
if it's like really heavy handed, but instead it's sort
of like just subtle enough that essentially I think it

(39:56):
makes it a much more like graceful critique, but also
I guess can make it so dumb people or people
who are not prone no, not you, like I'm just
a magic male critics being like what an interesting rom com? Right,
So it's like and I do think that's like always
the sort of problem with satire where either like I'm
gonna be so heavy handed that it's so annoying, right

(40:18):
like most Black Mirror episodes, or do it like this,
which is like, oh, it can kind of trick certain
people into being like, oh, I thought I was going
to rom com. I now realize my title understanding of
dating is wrong.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Right. I don't like the last scene, but I feel
like if it was maybe played a little bit different,
it could have that black mirror quality to it, and
I like mileage definitely varies on that. But the idea that,
for whatever reason I don't understand the magical rules of
this universe that Mine in Black wipes Ruby's memories the
way that it does every time I press stop on

(40:51):
my zoom recorder. But like the fact that she could
be much like Clementine and Joel in Eternal Sunshine of
the Spotless Mind, she could be stuck in this loop
of having to like be with this nightmare of a
person who is incapable of growth forever question mark. But
I don't think that that's what the last thing's trying
to say. I think there's a read of it that

(41:12):
you're like, oh, she's trapped, She's trapped, and that is
the ending of a horror movie that is final destination.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Right, But no, I think the ending is actually like
the studio being like this needs a happier, more uplifting ending,
So let's have it so that he meets her again
and now he's a redeemed man. And even though he
was so abusive to her prior to this, he redeemed
himself because he apologized in the book that he wrote

(41:41):
about and it is.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Actively Yeah, the thing he's actively profiting from and will
buy a second house with good for him and we it's.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
I don't understand what narrative thrust we're supposed to believe
earned any sort of redemption.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
So glad narrative thrust is he's really been getting into
the word therust recently, and just even the tacit support
of it, it makes me physically ill. No, I agree,
And I think that like a different version of this again,
it's like the two movies that it feels like that
last scene are influenced by. It's not completely dissimilar from
the end of Eternal Sunshine, except you do get the

(42:19):
clear feeling from Eternal Sunshine that their relationship will fail again. Yeah,
it will fail for the same reasons, and they are
agreeing that they're going to do it anyways. Where it's
like Ruby again, she is just like she has no autonomy,
she has none of the information, and so she is
like doomed to be because it's like, what is he

(42:40):
going to do in this happy version ending? Is he
going to not tell her again? Yeah, it seems like
it's about to happen.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
You won't know.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
Yeah, that's a fix for now. I'm like if he
literally if the movie cuts with him being like, I
have to tell you something.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Then that's interesting. Ooh. I kind of like, yeah, very
would have to change and then you're like, oh, this
was kind of a horror movie because I think Calvin
is a really I mean, he's despicable, he's the worst,
but he's a really interesting, like well written character where
he is saying stuff at the beginning of the movie,
like he has that line girls aren't interested in me,

(43:18):
They're interested in some idea of me, which is basically
identical to something Clementine says in Eternal Sunshine, and he
does mean that he is worried about it. Seems like
part of the reason he's reclusive is because he's insecure
about his work, obviously based on his past relationship, and
he's worried about being I guess in he feels the
reason he's not in a relationship is because he's afraid

(43:40):
that they will want mister cool literary guy and not
who he actually is. Problem being he has no idea
who he actually is and has no interest.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Well that, And it's like, I think this movie is
like kind of commenting on the hypocrisy of this exactly
because Ruby says that exact thing later, right, His concern
is I want someone who wants me for me, not
some idea of me, And then all he wants is
his idea of what a girlfriend should be.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, which is like, I just think it's so well
because I didn't catch that on the I mean, you
can't really if you don't know what's going to happen.
That line feels kind of innocuous in the first viewing,
but on the second viewing and you're like, damn, she's good,
she got my ass good. And that scene is doubled
down on when his relationship with Lila is clarified at
that party, being as vague as possible. I have a

(44:31):
friend who went through something like that not too long ago,
where everyone's version of their breakup is going to be
different and never completely objectively accurate. Impossible to have an
objective experience of that. But similar to how like Calvin
chose the element of the breakup that was painful for him,
because of course, getting broken up with after your parent

(44:53):
has recently died would be painful for anyone that's disorienting,
but chooses the one th that requires no self examination
on his part to blame the entire failure of their relationship.
We're removing contexts of years of when his father was
alive and he was a piece of shit. And I
don't know, I mean, I think that that is like

(45:13):
a pretty common thing that you see in breakups that
doesn't really know a gender in how it's perpetrated. But
I see men do it a lot.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, And I really liked that inclusion of that scene
with him and Lila at the party toward the end
of the movie, because again, the only context we have
up until that point was she broke up with him
shortly after his father died. He calls her a heartless slut.
She I think was his only past relationship they were
together for five years. Other than that, we don't know anything.

(45:46):
And then we get her side of the story, and
I'm like fully on board with I'm like, yes, I
believe everything you're saying lie.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
And she also acknowledges that it hurt that she chose
the moment to break up with him that she did,
but also that that doesn't mean that she was wrong
or needs to regret it, and like having that full
messiness acknowledged. And also it's so clear that like, yeah,
he couldn't love her for who she is, and when
she started to want things outside of their relationship, he
couldn't handle it.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
He couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle that she was
also an aspiring novelist, Like he felt very threatened and
was making progress, right, he begrudgingly helped her in her career,
but again he just like didn't want her to be
more successful than him or anything like that. Yeah, she says, like,

(46:35):
you weren't curious about me. You just had this image
of who I was, and anything I did that contradicted
it you just ignored. And this is exactly what he
does to Ruby. And we're like, yeah, okay, mister pattern
of behavior, Oh.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
God is ask Kathan.

Speaker 4 (46:54):
I also think, I mean, part of the reason I
think the character works and that you allow yourself to
sort of be surprised or tricked or whatever. By the
movie is that, like Zoe seems empathetic to like writers
and this character as a writer. And I do think
it's from a few things. One, it's like our parents
are famously writers. She comes from a very famous all

(47:17):
the way, all the ways down nepo baby. But also
like she is dealing with like how she is perceived
in Hollywood or whatever, Like she understands that she grew
up in Hollywood, so she knows different types of people.
And I do think there's a deep understanding of this
person's psychology that's not just like a sensitive misogynist. It's
just like a cartoon villain's like there you.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Ever heard that turn of phrase before? What a scary phrase, But.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
It just like clearly she's like, oh, I know how
the wheels of this person's brain work to make them
the victim of all situations, and like how good they are.
It's almost like because these people are writers, their ability
to create the other person in relationships is like heightened.
And because the aracters were written as writers, it makes
sense as well. You're like, well, like it makes sense

(48:03):
that he would make up fake people in real relationships
and fake relationships. He's a writer. That's what he does,
and I think that allows it to not just be
you know, a black Mirror episode or whatever, where it's
like it's just an idea of a person and you
just project nothing. It's honest, Like Paul Dano is not
a blank vessel. He's like a very specifically written person.
She wrote it for him, and.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Also like cool with Paul Dano to like take that on,
and I think, like, do it really thoughtfully. I can't
imagine shooting that scene with someone I'd been in a
relationship with for five years. But then I can't imagine
being in a relationship for five years, so it's complicated. Yeah,
there are other parts of the second If you watch
this movie, unfortunately you do have to watch it again

(48:46):
soon after because it is just like a very rewarding rewatch.
I think that another element of his character that resonated
for me and felt familiar perhaps was that Calvin has
this very juvenile again, just like the amount of guardrails
that this guy has set up to resist any introspection

(49:08):
or self reflection. It's like the corn Mazon signs, Like
it's unbelievable how he's done this, and he has this
you know core belief that like women don't like him.
He also has a very clear idea of what constitutes
a bad guy and a bad partner, and he repeats
it over and over in a way that is like

(49:29):
it reminds me of like tropes we've talked about in
the past, Katling, where it's like patriarchy, the guy where
you're just like the most like he's like, kicks the
door down, pulls someone's hair, and is like, I don't
think women should vote. And then any other man in
the room, because this guy has behaved so terribly, is
given like narrative impunity to act in more subtly misogynistic

(49:53):
ways because there is this blowhard and the way that
he describes I mean, the two things that stick out
to me is like the where he's imagining Ruby before
she crosses into the real world, where she's like, I
usually date guys that are kind of like shitty to me.
And then he says why would you date a guy
like that? Which is always what the guy who was
about to do that says immediately before he starts doing it.

(50:16):
Bone chilling interaction to watch. And then I think the
choices that he makes to flesh out her character is
also very telling of how he views himself to be
not like other guys, which is, yeah, we talked about
not like other girls all the time, but he clearly
thinks he is like different from all these other men.
And also, what was this book he wrote when he

(50:38):
was nineteen about? Because this writing is stinky. She's twenty
six from Dayton, Ohio. Her first crushes are Humphrey Bogart
and John Lennon, kicked out of high school for He
also projects a story of child sex abuse onto her
to romanticize her.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
And make it like it was her fault.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
There is like a romantic lark that she took when
she was a child.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, right, he says this.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
At one point, She's like, I'm a mess, and he's like,
I love that you're a mess. But he doesn't. He
like loves The parts of her messiness that he finds
charming are like waighs in for him to control her
of like she doesn't know how to pay her bills. Well,
that's the way for me to control her. Little things
that he enjoys doing. But when it comes to actually

(51:23):
being a person he does, I don't know. It's all planted,
really really thoughtfully.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
Yeah, it's like he only likes the part of her
that's like, instead of kissing, she jumps into a pool
with her clothes.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Right, I'm shy, but.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
That scene where she's the sort of character breakdown scene
does feel like literally a note for note five hundred
days a summer thing, because I do feel like that
movie uses dating an older man as a way of
showing like she's sort of like on particular, it's so
hard to understand like what those writers were thinking, where
it's clear Zoe was thinking, this is what those guys

(51:55):
think is like cool or whatever exactly.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
It's like I know that Zoe Kauzanne rejects the calling
of Ruby Sparks the character a manic pixie dream girl,
and I tend to agree, like this movie isn't putting
out that character as like, here's a story about a
manic pixie dream girl. It's an indictment of that trope.
But the character that he develops in this list of characteristics,

(52:21):
he's like, I think, rattling off to his therapist toward
the beginning, he has developed a manic pixie dream girl. Yeah,
and then when she turns out to not be that
and be a much more like nuanced and complex person.
He doesn't know how to interact or deal with that.
And then again, like Harry, his brother, who is somehow

(52:42):
like a genius in literary criticism, and his inconsistencies are
I don't know what to make of them exactly, but
he's just.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Willing to give it a pass just because it's like,
I do feel like there's I mean, not so cartoonishly so,
but I do feel like there's people like that out
there who like, are essentially good partners in their actions,
but also talk shit about their partners in a way
that can be ugly.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Let me just list a few things he says, and
they're almost all in one conversation, but it's in the car, no,
when they're like sitting by the pool. Oh oh, okay,
write the manuscript. So he's, well, there's that. The car
is pret because that's all. So he says, like, okay,
who reads love stories women? And it was like, okay, reductive.

(53:31):
But then he's like, but women aren't going to want
to read this because quirky, messy women whose problems only
make them endearing are not real. He's like, women will
see right through this, and you've written a shitty character
and he says, like the honeymoon phase thing doesn't last.
Women are different up closes, he starts talking about his
own relationship, and then he says some weird things because

(53:52):
he's like, I love Susie, my wife, his wife, but
she's a weirdo. For example, sometimes she's me as fuck
for no reason. You're like, okay, sir, let's.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Like recalibrate our definition of weirdo here because I'm not understanding.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
And also, is she mean as fuck or are you
just a dipshit who's like not a great partner and
she's calling you out for it? I don't know.

Speaker 4 (54:19):
I do think that line makes the most sense of
like other things he says is too sophisticated, but that
feels like actually his best way of being like both
empathetic to his wife but also unable to understand. Yeah
why right, So he's like, women are complicated, like my
wife confuses me all the time, right, And you're like, well,

(54:39):
at least he understands that they're not only projections, but
like he should not hypothetically be sophisticated enough to be
like and that's because women are three dimensional, you know,
Like he's not like a media studies professor. Right, so
it's like he's a sports agent of course, which you
don't know that. But so that line I thought was
like exactly, I think what I can magine that read

(55:01):
a level.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
Of emotional intelligence they would be capable of.

Speaker 4 (55:04):
I also think part of the problem is there's so
few characters in this movie. Yeah, that like ultimately characters
have to carry weight beyond their roles because you're like,
it's only like three actors.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Yeah, and then there's like little they're like, we have
Antonio Banderas for thirty six hours have fun data. He's
gonna make a chair, very magic mic of him to do.
Oh my gosh, yeah's magic micing. But I do like
his version of like a homemade better than chair better.
But also it looks like a prop from the Blair
Witch Project, though I don't know. Before we hop back,

(55:39):
I just I wanted to take a moment for Susie
because we are sort of talking about her. Yes, here's
Susie Corner there felt to me like and speaking to
yours just saying Jesse, like the fact that she just
does not get a lot of screen time at all.
I think she's talked about more than we actually see
her talking, which to me kind of undercut. But what

(56:01):
that's I think, like, really the main weakness of this
movie for me is I wish that, But it depends
on who you view to be the main character of
this movie. I do wish that we got more moments
with women. I think it would have been cool if
we got more moments with Ruby and women, because I
think that not to be gender prescriptive, but people who

(56:22):
have been in bad relationships can smell it on you
a little bit, and it would have been cool to
see her have an interaction with someone who is like,
things don't feel quite right. I think it would have
been cool to give Ruby some sort of friend or
ally to like help her tease out like I don't know.
That undercuts the moment where she's completely shocked. But also

(56:43):
no person she would meet in the world would be like,
I know what's happening. Paul Dano writes down what you
do and that's why you can speak French now, But
just like someone for her to process that confusion would
have been cool, and Susie would have been an interesting
character to maybe be that person. But we don't know
anything about her. We know that she's a weirdo and
maybe she's mean, but also maybe she's not. We don't

(57:05):
know enough about her to even get a read on
what the reality of that would be. And then also
she almost left him once. Hmm, I forgot about that part,
which I think is a cool detail. But again, if
you don't know the character is just like, well, she's
just sort of like plot meat. This is kind of
how she's treated.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
And she's I think the only person of color with
any significant speaking lines. But again she's also not one
of the least developed characters and yeah, not significant.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
Well it's like I guess alia. That's why I thought,
like if I read the script and somehow had this
ability to give Zoe a nome and Fleishman in Trouble
did not exist already, but yet time how I knew it.
It's like it'd be so useful if the third act
switch perspective, because like now, it's like, what does a
person with no memory of anything but a personality and
a history, how do they become a person? That would

(57:56):
be interesting, that's not the movie was trying to make
a comment on people like Paul Dano or whatever. And
I imagine also, who knows if the duty was like, well,
got to follow the protagonist, which is mister man Paul Dano.
Ruby Sparks is a manifestation for him to like grow up.
It did feel like a very that time, where like

(58:16):
that's the only plot a man could do, which is like,
I mean, it's literally exactly what happened with five hundred
days summer. Even though it is making fun of five
hundred days a summer, the plot still follows that way, even
beyond when it's like useful for us as the viewer, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
I mean any sort of perspective shift, even if it
doesn't do the hard fleshman is in trouble thing. To
see Ruby in a scene without Calvin, I think would
have been useful, and I don't think would have necessarily
challenged the reality of the movie we're in already.

Speaker 4 (58:46):
Does she have a scene where she talks to his mom?

Speaker 1 (58:48):
I can't remember, not really one on one, I don't
say sure, ooh, now I need to watch the third time.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
I'm pretty sure that we outside of when she's like
calling him from a bar, I don't know that we
ever see a scene where they're not together, because she
I think recaps a conversation she had with his mom
to him. I'm pretty sure that that's how we find
out about.

Speaker 4 (59:08):
That, because can you imagine that scene, which would in
Solva Bechdel problem but like still would be like she
goes like look my boys, blah blah blah, you know,
like something. You can imagine that scene where like she
knows that both her sons have these sort of like
problems with women, but like something, something, something, at least
that would be like, what is Annette Benning's perspective on

(59:30):
any of these things happening other than she has a
nice plant and like it's cool to be married to
Antonio Benderis, whose character's name is mort not remember.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Yeah that, Like again, I really really like Zoeka Is
in I think she's like some of our s tier nepotism,
I really do, but I do like I thought the
mom character again kind of like a missed opportunity and
felt very like I've seen this character a million times,
like Polo mom to Woo Woo mom, unless that's like

(59:59):
her being This is a clear rom com stock character
that we've seen before, so I don't know, I'd be curious,
like what the reasoning was. I understand that like on
the rewatch Calvin's reaction to his own mother is a
huge red flag and very very self involved, where he
clearly is unwilling to accept a version of his mother

(01:00:19):
that is not comforting and familiar to him, which is
how he treats women in general. I think it's interesting
that there is I don't really know what the timeline is,
but there is like an undercurrent of like Calvin very
likely has not processed grieving for his father and is
projecting that onto his mom, certainly more so than his brother,
who he sees all the time. It seems like he
avoids his mom and judges her for being in love again.

(01:00:44):
And I think we're led to believe embracing a truer
version of herself. Yeah, but like I wish that they
used her more.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
It's interesting because now that you talk about it from
the respective of grief, right, So he's like essentially, as
we said, like he's nineteen and never stays nineteen, and
then like he responds like a kids dad died, and
then he resents people who respond like a grown up
whose partner died or whatever. And it's like that scene
with him and the bunny or whatever in the therapist's
office where he's like, not only does he need a

(01:01:14):
bunny to comfort him or whatever? He then is like
jealous that maybe someone else, right, and that is like
how does sort of his grief and need to be
comfort and his possessative interact with each other. And you
see it all from that scene, right, you just wouldn't
think of it. Right at that scene, You're like, Oh,
he's a quirky boy and he's gonna beet a quirky girl,
and this is gonna be like and there is a

(01:01:35):
thing where his characters only referred to as a boy,
like they're all girls and boys, so there is something
where like, oh, of course a boy wants a girl, right,
Like follow.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
It up on when Christmasina is like, you haven't written
a woman, You've written a girl. Kind of clarifies maybe
what that means, even though I'm like justice for girls.
But yeah, like I'm starting to I'm like, is this
the most genius movie of all time? Because I also
think you see early indicates of the type of person
he is in the way that he treats his dog,
where first of all, he I think it's no mistake

(01:02:05):
that he later makes Ruby act like his dog, but
it's a really early conversation between him and his therapist
that seems kind of innocuous, but it's like he wants
to have a dog because he wants to have fun
with his dog. But every time we see that he
needs to take care of his dog, he's annoyed. He
doesn't want to do it. He wants to offfload the
difficult part of having a dog to someone else, and

(01:02:27):
that's really depressing because it's like he views women as
dogs and that he also doesn't want to care to
the difficult parts of a human relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
And he wanted the dog so that there would be
this kind of built in excuse for people to stop
and pet the dog, and then he'd meet people, because
he seems to struggle meeting with people and connecting with people,
but he's never like looked into why that is.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Or they're like, I can't criticize someone for getting a
pet to feel more connected to the world.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
No, I'm not criticizing, but.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Totally like it's like another indication of like he will
do backflips to avoid self reflection.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
You know what's an interesting example like the Alia Shotcat scene,
which is so he's at first you're like he's using
this person. But even when she's like we're gonna have sex,
he's like he spits out a drink, like it's almost like, oh, no,
I was using you just for this one thing of
like getting a bearings of reality. I don't I'm not
even using you in the way you think I'm trying
to use you. And he can't even control he doesn't

(01:03:27):
even like that, and but that also then reaffirms he
does that. He goes, I'm a good guy. I'm just
using this human being as a way of getting a
grip with reality. I'm not using her to have sex.
That's like what bad guys do. And you're like, but
she wants to have sex, he.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
Doesn't get it. Yeah, And it's like, by his own
description of women up to this point, we know that
he is judging her severely for wanting to have sex
with him in spite of not knowing him very well,
which is like she clearly doesn't give a shit, but
it's like he's judging her for that, and yeah, he
says to her, he's like, I don't want that. Like

(01:04:03):
he basically says like, I'm not using you for anything,
And I think he believes that scary, bone chilling.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Yeah, truly a conversation that I felt really like, damn,
this is well written, and this is very emblematic of
the type of emotional abuse that this type of guy
inflicts on people. Is the scene right after they've returned
from that party where she got in the pool and

(01:04:31):
she says, you have all these rules and you don't
tell me what they are until I've broken one, and
then you get to be disappointed in me. And he
says like, here are my rules. Don't fuck other men
and don't let them think about fucking you. And she's like, okay,
so what now I'm responsible for what other people are thinking?
And he's like, yeah, when you act a certain way,
it leads people on. When you take off your clothes

(01:04:53):
at a party, it makes people think you're a slut.
And I'd prefer if you didn't do that. Is that
clear enough?

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Were you?

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
And it's just like Wow, everything about how he is
in a relationship, his controlling, this, his possessiveness, his condescension,
it's like all just right there on display in a
way that felt like very authentic to how that type
of abuse plays out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
And I was just like, damn, yeah, well.

Speaker 4 (01:05:21):
It's also like how a guy like that uses quirkiness
as like a sort of shield or whatever, which is
like by sort of like being lighthearted, he doesn't have
to like actually reveal what he's actually thinking the entire time, right,
So it's like hypothetically this entire time he's mad at
her or resents her, or it is like he creates her,

(01:05:42):
and he's like you dressed. You can imagine him being
like you dressed like a slud even though he described
how I didn't even think of that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
But then he's like finally where he's like pushed, You're like, oh,
you've been all of these thoughts have been locked and loaded.
And a worse movie would like somewhat like Frankenstein. It right,
it's like you're my creation. But because the movie is
like ridden more in defense of Frankenstein, Conder's just acting

(01:06:11):
as Frankenstein would frank Stein's monster, not frank Stein and
doctor Frankstein. I would just be so fascinated to have
a brain of a person who was really on board
with Paul Daniel's characters in the entire time, and then
that happens, and does that person go, yes, she is wrong,
she shouldn't sleep with that guy where that scene seems
to be like, this is why a character would do this,

(01:06:31):
because it's almost like, I think, what's interesting about this movie.
It's like it's about human relationships, but it's also like
a media critique, right, but it doesn't feel just like
a media critique, and I think it all it works
into all of those levels that're just sort of like, oh,
what is it saying about how movies are structures and
how that feeds into how people meant specifically think how

(01:06:52):
gender roles are supposed to play out, right, It's like
the idea of roles. It's like on multiple levels, which
I think is why she's so smart and good and
also built in is like I'm going to write really big,
crazy parts for me and my partner to like go.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Off, which is like very very cool, which.

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):
Is notable because like this is a huge breakthrough for
her as an actress. Like Paul had been in stuff
because he was a little missunshine, but she's like, yeah,
there would be like he was a big actor and
she was just sort of like bouncing around doing theater
and then does this and again writes a movie way later,
but like then becomes much more notable as an actress,
oddly enough, almost exclusively playing romantic leads in like lighthearted

(01:07:33):
indie comedies. But it also works on sort of the
basic level of like I want to showcase for us
to show like I'm also not just what Hollywood thinks
I am when they picture me.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Sure, yeah, I'm like excited to see I mean, i
haven't seen more from her since, but like I'm excited
to just keep seeing more from her because she's I
mean that sort of speaks to the last thing I
wanted to just like touch on she sort of talked
about earlier, but just that, Like, this movie just feels
very ahead of its time in a way I wasn't expecting.
I watched back some of the original press tour of
this and it's a lot of Zoe and Paul and

(01:08:06):
Paul being asked more questions and Paul being asked There
was one just like subtle stuff that like watching it
ten years later in like three sixtyp you're like, ooh,
do not talk to my friend that way. There's either
just like switching the direction to talk to Paul Dano
about something when they're there, to talk about the movie

(01:08:26):
that she wrote, and start in and then also just
like little stuff that like, oh, I think this may
have happened to me before, where it's like a scene
that Zoe Kazan has written, and there she's asked more
than once, like how much improv happened in that scene,
as if it was unbelievable that she could have written
a well constructed scene. It just made my blood boil.

Speaker 4 (01:08:47):
She went to Yale for playwright.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
Like she wrote it, Dude, it doesn't sound improvise whatsoever.
And then I just wanted to share the lead on
this glowing New York Times review of this movie from
twenty twelve, it's the critics pick by Stephen Holden, who
hasn't entertained a fantasy of romantic omnipotence in which a
dream partner complies with your every wish in the language

(01:09:11):
of my fair lady. Oh, wouldn't it be loverly? But wait?
Would unquestioning obedience really answer your deepest longings? Or would
it rob you of the thrill of the chase? Might
playing puppet master awaken inner demons that drive you to
behave monstrously? Ruby Sparks is an ingenious and delightful variation

(01:09:31):
on the Pygmalion myth toy is whimsically with these questions.
As the initially perfect relationship between an author and has
sprung to life, creation goes through changes. That's how a
positive review of this movie would go.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
In twenty twelve.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
Ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Brudal Well, I'll contrast that with a few quotes from
Zoe Kazan just to kind of like contextualize where she
coming from and like how the development of this movie
went and where the idea came from. I guess she
was inspired because she was like going home one night
and saw a discarded mannequin that she thought was a body,

(01:10:15):
and she was like, oh no, and then she realized
it was a mannequin. But she's like, what if, like
there was this like discard like just like a I
don't even know actually how I don't know how that
turned into this idea. But she was also inspired by
the myth of Pigmalion, and then she started writing a

(01:10:37):
chunk of the script and then she realized the thing
that she wanted to explore with this is the kind
of idea of love versus the actuality of it. And
she has a few quotes that I want to share
I'll paraphrase this first part where she describes how you
know her mom is a feminist and she was raised

(01:10:59):
with feminist thinking, and her parents had a kind of
non traditional relationship where traditional gender roles weren't that observed,
and she says, quote, but with my first relationships, I've
found myself being expected to behave in an almost subservient way.
It was shocking. I couldn't believe how traditional the roles

(01:11:22):
are for so many people. My girlfriends would sometimes say
to me, God, you're so lucky, he loves you so much,
and I would think to myself, I'm so lonely. I
feel like a doll unquote. And I feel like that
informs like a lot of what this story is about.
She also says, quote, I haven't seen a lot of
things from that perspective, that idea of being gazed at,

(01:11:44):
but never seen that moment when you think I am
so strong and so brave inside and you're treating me
like a baby. So I wanted to explore that in
a way that wasn't unkind or alienating for men, because
I love men unquote, and maybe like that almost makes
men are awesome. She says, huge move for Jesse. And

(01:12:08):
it also makes me wonder like was that a studio
note at the end, or is she saying like men
do reserve redemption sometimes I don't know, it's we don't
know either way.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
I would just be interested to hear her talk about
this movie. Now.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Yeah, the final thing I want to share from her
is she says, quote, I'm very girly. I've been girly
since day one, but being girly led to relationships where
the guy has a very strong idea of me. But
it's an idea that it's only appropriate for adult. Just
because I'm girly doesn't mean I'm a lost little girl.
I hate that you're either a little lost girl, or

(01:12:44):
you're a bitch who doesn't need men, or you're a
nurturing motherly type. I have all of those things inside me.
Who doesn't unquote, And so just like this collection of
quotes is I think like very informative for like what
her and just were with this movie. And we talk
about this a lot, especially that last quote as far
as like, oh, hyper femininity has been kind of criticized

(01:13:08):
by many different types of people, but including feminists, because
it's like, oh, well, you're just like succumbing to this
expectation of what a woman.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Would be guilty of it early in the show.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
I've definitely done it throughout my life. Yeah, and I
like this. She's like, no, like just because I'm this
way doesn't mean that I'm not also other things and
that I'm not complicated and that I am not a feminist.
So yeah, I just I liked those quotes and I
liked where she was coming from.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
Yeah, it was around these times. There was like I
don't remember when New Girl started, but I feel like
New Girl was partly also like the debate about like
the idea of Zoe Deschanel, because like people were like
making fun of like hello Giggles type people people were yeah,
and that was so she was like on the front
line of like quirky people can also have depth or whatever.

(01:13:59):
Now like that it's not like the number one thing
this movie is about, but it is somewhat defense of like,
you know, quirky people are complicated. They just sort of
manifest those complications with different ways.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
But on the Calvin character, as he's like listing off
the traits of the Ruby Sparks character, he says something
like she's complicated and that's what I like about her. Well,
it's first of all, you did not develop her to
be complicated. She just became complicated because she materialized as
a human in the world. And secondly, you don't like
that about her. You do not like this she's complicated.

Speaker 4 (01:14:32):
Yeah, you just like that. She's like a Zoeka's hand type.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
Yeah, like character actors who appear in round cons a lot.
She's been typed a lot over the years too. And
I think it is interesting to like look at hers
and Paul Dano's career alongside each other because they've been
together for so long, and it's like they're both tremendously
talented actors, and it's like he easily gets more opportunities

(01:14:56):
to show range and to try shit out, and he's
still a type Like you're not casting Paul Dano for
certain kinds of roles.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
But like he's not the Terminator, but he is.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
The Riddler, right, And it's like Zoe Kzan doesn't get
those kinds of opportunity or at least that I know of.

Speaker 4 (01:15:15):
No, she gets to play a journalist in a movie, right,
It's like she's she said, and like it's her and
Carrie Mulligan which are both Zoe kzan Cary Mulligan types,
and it's the only reason they get to both be
in a movie. It's because it's about two journalists. Like,
she doesn't get to play the villain in a Batman movie,
which would be like imagine she played Poison Ivy. It's
the weirdest take on that characters be cool.

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
And it's interesting because it seems like she's like interacting
with these ideas ten years before it you know, continues
to happen.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
Yeah, because I imagined someone informed by going on auditions
and you know, it's like quirky person types and the
and going into auditions and everyone is like a different
version of regards of how manic they are Pixie in
some capacity.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Yeah, sorry, I was just distracted by my thought of,
you know, who does get to be a Batman villain,
Zoe Kravit.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
There can only be one nepotism Zoe in the Batman universe,
Zoe k Yeah. Oh wow wow Yeah continues. Does this
movie pass the Maxels test? I don't think it does.
I don't think it does. I don't think so. That's
a bummer. Yeah, I could see that being a creative
choice because I would be really surprised if Zoe Xan

(01:16:25):
was not aware of this metric, just based on what
I know about her. Maybe that's not true, but I
do think that it would probably be true. But I
don't think that the movie. I don't know. I still
think it's a fantastic movie that has a lot to
say about Jinda, But I don't think that the movie
would be harmed by and I think in some ways

(01:16:46):
in my brain version of this movie, it could be
helped along in an interesting way by giving Zoe a
woman in the real world to have some sort of
like or just watch Zoe observe other people's relationships and
talked to someone about it. Like it just feels like
because we do see her being active as she gains
autonomy without even realizing that that's what's happening. But it

(01:17:09):
would have been cool to see her talk to people
instead of just reacting to Calvin. So I feel like
this would be stronger if she talked to more women.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
There could be even be a scene where like she
either becomes friends with Susie or has like a girlfriend
from her acting class or something like that, and they
talk about Calvin's shitty behavior.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
And where she sees a woman being treated worse than
she is and like how does she feel about that?

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
Or like right, right, right, And then if Ruby calls
him out on his behavior, then he would probably just
write another sentence on his manuscript of like Ruby has
an intense distrust of other women because women are petty
or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:54):
Yeah, intentionally keeping her from other women would have been
an interesting choice.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Yeah, yeah, it.

Speaker 4 (01:17:59):
Seems like because both like intentionally the movie was like
I have to follow the beats of male protagonist hero movie,
even if he're subverting it. Yeah, right, I think, which
I talked about last time, which is like sometimes if
you do the strictest version of like Hero's Journey, it's like, well,
there's no room for anyone else. But also I imagine
it's also, as we said, there's so little cast, there's
so few speaking roles. That's why it was like it

(01:18:21):
has to be the mother because there's only so much
budget for her, Like all the people in her class
have to be extra. She couldn't be like not some
good painting, right, we can't even see her painting class.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
No, we don't know if she's any good, which does
feel like a creative twice. I don't think he cares.
It's not like her paintings are hanging up, which also
is like, yeah, he just doesn't give it. He just
wants her to do a romantic sounding thing. He doesn't
want to look at it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:42):
No, he prefers that she's good at cooking, right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
Right, although I think we see some of her illustrations
and paintings like in the bedroom.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):
Yeah it's paintings of him, right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
Yeah, it's literally paintings of him, yes, yeah, but again
he wrote her that way or something. I don't know anyway,
Nipple Skill our scale of zero to find the rector
Jesse based how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens,
I think I'm gonna give this a three and a half.
I'm docking it for the ending, which is a little

(01:19:14):
too sugary and Hollywood e and maybe it was a
studio note or not, We're not sure. But basically, the
Calvin character gets a redemption that I don't think he
has earned at this point, and I don't like that
he's like presented with what seems to be an opportunity
to like reconnect with her and like have a second chance.

(01:19:37):
And again I don't not to say that people don't
deserve a redemption. It's a case by case scenario. But
this person doesn't this person at this time, this character
does not because he has not earned it at this time.
So I did not like how the movie concludes. But

(01:19:58):
everything up until that point, for the most part, I thought,
was like a really interesting characterization of men's expectations of
like what a hetero romance with a woman should be
or not, you know, hashtag not all men, but like
a very kind of in general or like, you know,

(01:20:19):
under patriarchy. This is how a lot of men feel
and how they operate and how they behave and what
their conduct is like in these types of relationships, and
it still happens. We're not past it yet. So I
thought it was a really interesting exploration of all of that.

(01:20:39):
But also it's a very such a white movie, and
it's like we're in Los Angeles and what do we why? Anyway,
three and a half nipples, maybe even four, I'm not sure.
Let's go three point seventy five, and I'll give one
to Zoe Kazan. I'll give one to the actor who
plays Susie, which is Tony Trucks. I will give one

(01:21:03):
to Annette Benning, and I'll give my three quarters nipple
to Scottie the Dog and specifically the piss on male
Calvin's bed.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
I had a similar fruitless battle between three point five
and four, so I'll do the same three point seventy five.
I think that this movie is pretty fucking amazing. I
do appreciate and want to shout out the fact that
it is co directed by a woman, Valerie Ferris of
Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Ferris who previously did Little Miss Sunshine.

(01:21:37):
It is written by Zoe exam Like. I think it's
very very rare, even in this subgenre of like good
movies that address this trope, to have a woman involved
at the highest level, which is interesting, and so I'm
actually giving it four because I just changed my mind.
I do, however, think that like this entire subgenre also

(01:21:58):
does take place in upper class white families with I
don't think any exception which does feel worth examining. Yes,
especially because you're saying we're in LA like, it's ridiculous
to have Antonio banderaz In essentially a glorified cameo role
alias katt In essentially a glorified cameo role and Susie

(01:22:19):
truly not involved in any meaningful way, so I am
critical of that. I don't like the ending, obviously, but
the majority of the movie. I think this movie is
so ahead of its time. I think is really good
and it made me want to watch more. Zoe exam
by ZOEA Kasan because I don't want to watch she
said again, unfortunately, not because I'm a misogynist, because it

(01:22:43):
was boring and I do want all the president's men
with women journalists. But that was not it. And that's
the rude thing I'm saying at the end.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
For no reason, Jamie. I can't believe that you, my creation,
would say something like that. So I type something you
said on my typewriter, the.

Speaker 3 (01:23:01):
Best reporting of our time, and it was like being
a mother is hard, and you're like, oh my god. Anyways,
we're talking about the movie Ruby Sparks, which I'm giving
four nipples to right now. I am giving one to Susie,
I'm giving one to Ruby Sparks herself, I'm giving one
to Alias Chacott, and I am giving one to you.

(01:23:25):
Think I'm gonna give it to Emmanette Benning, I'm not.
I'm giving it to Christmasina because I had a great
time watching them.

Speaker 1 (01:23:31):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
Yeah, a guy who likes sports and can read talk
about there's there's a lot being subverted in this movie.
I'm kidding. Uh huh, I'm going to a hockey game tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
Wow incredible, Jesse, what say you?

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
I will also give it four nipples. I have a
bad memory, but I've decided to retcon my brain to
be like this movie changed my life and maybe because
the flaws in my own ways, like how I approach relationships.
I don't know if that's true, but it seems around
the time where I was like starting to get better
at understanding people or people or whatever. Like I also think,

(01:24:11):
you know, like I never said friend zone, probably, but
I maybe did, you know, Like I was raised in
this culture and I had to learn, and I think
this movie was formative and like helping. I think Five
Hundred Days of Summer is somewhat also about how a
certain type of guy creates an idea of a woman
and then realizes like, oh, maybe I'm creating idea. I

(01:24:34):
don't love her, I love the idea of where, but
kind of really lets that person off the hook. And
this movie, like really makes you sit with how grotesque
it can look. And like that scene where it's that
scene that we talked about being really tough to watch,
like forces you to like confront that like this is
the worst it possible can be. And I think that's
really impressive. But as we said, it's like it is

(01:24:55):
a narrow world. So and then I will give these
nipples too. One for Zoe Kazan the writer. One for
Zoe Kazan the actress because while doing the script, she
also found a way to show all different types of
moves she can do and like that's the benefit of
Nepo Baby, and he's like, well, I'm gonna write this movie,
I must have like showcased different things.

Speaker 3 (01:25:15):
Speaks French, yeah yeah, which is a very Kazan thing
to do.

Speaker 4 (01:25:21):
One for Paul Dano for reading the script being like, yeah,
we should do this, me and you.

Speaker 3 (01:25:25):
What's the worst that could happen?

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
They're still together as far as like, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
They got two kids.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
I see Paul Dano around with.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
One of Melissa Lozada will have a multiple time guests
of the show. I met him at a coffee shop
once and had a full on It wasn't a romcom moment,
but he was just like, what book are you reading?
And She's like, and I thought I was gonna pass out.

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
The first time I talked to Zoe, we talked about books.
I can't remember why.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
A couple who reads books are so pervasive, so important.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
They are real Brooklyn parents and actors through and through.
And then I have one more nipple and it will
go to Valerie Ferris and Jonathan Dayton for remind me
what twenty twelve was like and having a soundtrack that
was not souf fun Stevens but sounded like the mood
board was like, well soup on Stevens like, and I

(01:26:19):
missed that. So kudos to them for this being the
first project they did after that movie.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
Nice Jesse, thank you so much for joining us. Thank
us about your book before you go.

Speaker 3 (01:26:33):
Geez oh.

Speaker 4 (01:26:34):
Books are so important.

Speaker 3 (01:26:35):
We just important. And Zoe Kazan read them.

Speaker 4 (01:26:39):
If I see them on the street, I gotta give
him a copy. The book is called Comedy Book. It's
a book about comedy functions as an art form and
as part of our culture. It's no it's like a heady,
big book about the last forty years or so of
comedy most related to our topic of conversation is I

(01:27:01):
talk about context in satire and is it better for
satire to be really heavy handed allah Black Mirror or
for it to be something like this where people might
get confused. I don't pick a side, but it's an
easter egg. I ultimately would prefer something like this then
to Black Mirror. Yeah, and it's a bookstores. I'm doing

(01:27:21):
comedy shows for it. One in New York on November seventh,
one in LA on November thirteenth. Go to those please.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
It's a wonderful book. I'm like, I'm enjoying it so much.
It's been my Sunday book. It's been keeping me company. Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Is there anything social media as you'd like to?

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Oh my name on all of them. I'm going to
leave or x after the book comes out, but until then,
if this is before that, I'm so on Twitter, but
not Instagram's where I use just to promote things cool
and post Simpson's screenshots.

Speaker 1 (01:27:55):
That's work that's important, and you follow us also mostly
on Instagram. At Bechdel Cast, you can subscribe to our
Patreon at patreon dot com, slash Bechdel Cast and become
a matron where We do two bonus episodes every month,
plus access to the back catalog of around one hundred

(01:28:19):
and fifty bonus episodes, all for five dollars a month.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
If you want more episodes on our Matreon about someone
being controlled, we did three episodes about Pinocchio so that
you can you can go check that out. You can
get our mergencypublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, and
with that, let's go to a park and meet all
over and groundhog Day the worst relationship ever.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
Okay, bye bye bye by