Sausage Party

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, EFFI bast
start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Oh gosh, welcome to the Bachdell Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Okay, yeah, ready to party, Ready to sausage party?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes I am, because today is my shameless plugging day.
Today is the day where we are doing a movie
that is technically about hot dogs but is also I
don't know, I don't know, uh, but we're celebrating the
release of Raw Dog, my first book. When you're hearing this,
it will be out. You should definitely go buy it

(00:49):
at your local bookstore. Don't know, Amazon, fuckery. Please I'll
accept the Barnes and Noble, but only if you're in
a difficult like only if you're not near an independent books,
which you probably are, So go get It's my book
about the history of hot dogs and a road trip
I took in twenty twenty one trying hot dogs across
the country. It is about leftist politics, it is about workers' rights,

(01:14):
it is about the history of like how American jingoism
is connected to the hot dog It's about following people
around in the Wienermobile. It's about falling in love with
Joey Chestnut. But also it's complicated and I don't really
fuck with him, but I do have a crush on him,
gross problematic fave Joey Chestnut and my king to Karo Kobyashi,

(01:36):
as well as all of the kind of twisted bizarre. Well,
this is actually maybe where it overlaps with Sausage Party,
which we're talking about today, which mercifully does not come
up in the book. I did not there, there is
no space, and I didn't want to know. I just
didn't want to. But in Professional hot Dog Eating, there's

(01:57):
a lot of historical issues regarding racism and gender discrimination
within that sport. Yes, it's a sport. No, I will
not be taking questions or arguments about it. It is
a sport, and that is something that has in common
with the movie we're discussing today, So shameless plunge.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
And racism and yes, all of those things, yes huh.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
But one thing it doesn't have that Sausage Party does
is bad writing. It's a good book. I should buy it,
and I or if you're not in a position to
buy it. We'll link in this episode of different ways
to request that it be brought to your local library.
That's also a great way. There's also an audio book

(02:42):
that's narrated by me, but they're like, hey, podcaster getting
that booth and I did. And my audio engineer's name
was Tim, and he was a vegan, and he was like,
oh my god, oh gee whiz. We really learned from
each other that week. He's from New Zealand, kind of iconic,
and he's like, I can't do anyw Zealand accent. But

(03:03):
he was like, this country is so fucked and I
was like, that's right, Tim, that's right. And that's an
example of something that did not pass the Bechdel test.
Me and Tim shooting the shit. Yeah. Was it pleasant, yes,
of course, but did not pass.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
And which what a wonderful transition to our show and
what it's about. So this is the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Hello.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
My name is Caitlin Derante.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
My name is Jamie loftis author of Raw Dog Out Now.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
And this is our show where we analyze movies through
an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel It was a
weird way to say that using the Bechtel test simply
as a jumping off point to initiate a far larger
conversation about representation and such in FLIM. The Bechdel test

(03:53):
being a media metric sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test
that first appeared in Alison Bechdel Queer icon queer cartoonist
Alison Bechdel's comic Dykes to Watch out For. Originally intended
just as sort of like a one off joke, it
was a bit, but it has since been used as

(04:13):
this media metric. There are many versions of it. The
one that we use is this two characters of a
marginalized gender must have names. Those characters have to talk
to each other about something other than a man, and
we particularly enjoy it when it is a narratively meaningful
conversation and not just a hi, hot dog number one Hello.

Speaker 4 (04:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Also, I resent the aggressive gendering of the hot dog
expanded universe. Hot dogs are Look, they're beautiful. They don't
know gender, and this is I mean it, Katelyn, no love.
I love these damn things.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
I love to eat hot dogs.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
When they're ethically produced. I'm smiling, and they don't know gender.
They transcend gender and class. That's the whole point of
a hot dog there for everybody. Why according to this
movie that's rogan God, we'll talk about it. Got well,
actually I have a lot of hot dog gendering thoughts,

(05:17):
which we'll get around to. But yes, this movie, I mean,
for it's many flaws. It does pass the Bexel test,
not the way as I particularly like. Oh it's heinous,
but yeah, but that's why we talk about all the time.
It's a flawed metric. It was created as a bit.
But there's plenty to talk about. And boy, oh boy,
this movie came out in twenty sixteen, but it really

(05:41):
feels like it came out in two thousand and four.
It has like huge two thousand and four vibes. But
it was a I kind of forgot we were talking
about this earlier. I forgot that Sausage Party was apparently
a huge hit.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yes, it was like a box office smash hit. It
was for a while the highest grossing R rated movie
ever until it was really such a bummer. Oh sorry, okay,
I made some stuff up. It was the highest grossing
R rated animated film, not R rated film in general,

(06:16):
but which R rated animated film because it grossed one
hundred and forty one million dollars at the box office
against a budget of nineteen million dollars, which is a
low budget for an animated feature. And will go into
how that happened later. The budget on this movie is
low for.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
A animated and then I have a lot of feelings
on animation labor. Yeah, well, sEH, we'll get to Animators
are treated so horribly and people across the spectrum in
terms of jobs in animation are just treated terribly. And
this also it also feels like it ties into conversations
that have gone on in the last couple of years
around effects workers in Marvel movies, where that's constantly been

(06:59):
like people working overtime and then not just being worked
to death. And you know, the whole ethos is like
you should be lucky to work on a Marvel movie,
and it's like, go fuck yourself. Yes, but yees, so
it was a pretty big hit and I'm realizing Kaitlyn. I,
first of all, I appreciate that you were willing to
do a hot dog themed movie to line up.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
With Oh yeah, this was my idea.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Sorry hot Dog, which is which dog out?

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Now?

Speaker 2 (07:27):
I will say I thought this was the only movie
about hot dogs, but shows what I fucking know because
my friend Mitch last night gave me a DVD for
something called hot Dog the Movie. Why that came out
in nineteen eighty four. Well, I haven't read this anopsis yet, Okay,
I've had It's definitely share it. Well, of course I can.

(07:50):
Let me get the sticker off. Hold on, Okay, there's
a booklet inside. How we're gonna just read the beginning
good snowballs and powder bunnies, the sex tactic, slapstick slaloam
of hot Dog the movie? What hot Dogs the movie?
I'm not even following. I think it's a skiing movie

(08:11):
is Also what's gonna do? Is the whole thing appears
to take place at a Let's find out what Dog
the movie is. This is the supreme Bacchanalian Ski movie blowout,
toward which all previous Bacchanalian Ski movie blowouts has led,
and from which all subsequent Bachanalian Ski movie blowouts have
since proceeded. Backward, upside down and drunkenly spinning through the

(08:31):
air between snow capped jumping off points, hitting theaters in
early nineteen eighty four, at the ascending peak of post
Porky's teen sex comedy mania. Oh Boy, hot Dog's protagonists
may not have been in high school or college, but
the movie's ski lodge setting and r rated raunch landed
it squarely in the cannon of high eighties adolescent anarchy farces.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Let me just keep us So this is like a bias,
a biography of the movie more than a synopsis.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
I'm under real this is a movie about skiing. Why
is it called hot Dog the movie? Wait? Hang on,
I'm getting pissed off. I'm getting pissed off. Let's google where? Yeah,
when is when the hot dogs coming?

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Are the skiers?

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Like?

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Are the wait?

Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's about? The film stars Patrick Hawser as Harken Banks,
a young and ambitious freestyle skier from Bonners Ferry, Idaho,
who's determined to prove himself in the freestyle skiing competition
at Squaw Valley. Along the way, he teams with a
there's no hot dogs in this movie.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, it's just about it's a teen sex comedy about
freestyle skiers.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Well, that has nothing to do with hot dogs, And
I'm pissed. Apparently this movie made it budget back eleven times.
Not that he has ever heard of it, and hopefully
that's what will happen to the movie we're discussing as
today as well, Sausage Party. Caitlin Doranday, what's her history
with this movie?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
I did not see it in theaters, but I did
see it shortly after it came out, because there was
a lot of buzz about this movie. Not only was
it a box office hit, it was critically well received.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
It has eighty two percent on Rotten Tomatoes, which is
unexplained that the male I remember being shocked by that
at the time too, because this was shortly before the
Bechdel Cast began. Yeah, this came out the summer before
mm hm.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
So I saw it sometime later in twenty sixteen, and
remember thinking, and this was before I was like, like
you said, this was before we started the Bechdel Cast.
So even though like representation was on my mind when
I was watching movies, you know, we didn't have quite

(10:41):
the nuanced takes that we do now.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
But you don't need a nuanced view of cinema to
realize that.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
I would say that this is one of the worst
movies I've ever seen from a storytelling point of view
and from a representation point of view, It's just abysmal
in every imaginable way.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
It's a really And it's interesting to read back the
good reviews of this movie because there is sort of
a lot of like and I do think it has
to do with how beloved seth Rogen is by pop
culture and by the general culture in general, and general
culture in general, Jae come on, and I'm like, we're
not knocking Seth Rogen fans, Like I've enjoyed a lot

(11:26):
of Seth Rogen over the years, although I did used
to say I would deport them to Canada, which was
not nice of me, but no, I mean it's like
I've I've enjoyed a lot of Seth Rogen's work. This
is just really not I don't know. I felt a
sort of like in reading a lot of reviews, a
lot of bending over backwards to make this movie okay

(11:48):
because Seth Rogan made it and like all these beloved
comedians of this era made it. And I do wonder
what how this movie would be received if it came
out now. And also like reading about the ostensible like
intentions that the writers had, like where they were like,
it's this is something that we'll get into it but

(12:11):
it just like never ever, ever, ever, ever works when
someone's like, this movie is equal opportunity offensive, no one
is safe from my pen and it's just like, well,
that completely ignores any dynamics of like privilege or who
gets to make most movies, So that does not work.

(12:32):
And it's just like I was reading in the reviews
of this that I don't know, like the closest I
could say to something positive about this movie is that
it's attempting to say something about faith. I don't think
it successfully does. I understand that it's attempting to. But
everything else is just like presenting very broad stereotypes in

(12:54):
a way that is not presenting the I was not seeing.
The commentary that was implied in some of these reviews
is I'm like commenting on what exactly exactly what does
Bill Hayter playing a native character in the most broadly
offensive way possible on multiple levels? What does that comment anything?

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, the critical consensus on Rotten Tomatoes.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is which, again, Rotten Tomatoes is like a shitty metric, but.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
So people consult it like I go on Rotten Tomatoes
to be like should I see this movie?

Speaker 2 (13:28):
I don't know sure?

Speaker 3 (13:30):
But the critic consensus is Sausage Party is definitely offensive.
I agree with that, but backs up its enthusiastic profanity
with an impressively high laugh to gag Ratio. I do
not agree with that because I did not laugh fucking once.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
No, it's all puns.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yeah, like, it's all bad, and I love a pun,
but none of these puns are good.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
And then then the final part of this is so
it's you know, it backs up the enthusiastic profanity with
an impressively high laugh to gag Ratio and a surprisingly
thought provoking storyline.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Also, no, I like truly the no no like this
is I went to a letterboxed on this one as well,
just to get a fe I love letterbox reviews a lot.
Oh they're great. The top review is I'm only four
minutes into this, but I think this is the most
evil movie I've ever seen. And I hard agree with that.

(14:28):
And this is why we need better movies about hot dogs.
And I would I I'm you know, I'm not even
throwing my hat in the ring. I am the fucking ring.
I'm gonna make a hot dog movie that doesn't suck ass.
This is my history with this movie is that I
saw it similar shortly after it came out, because but

(14:49):
I remember like seeing it with a friend that we
were watching it again. We hadn't started the Betel cast.
But it doesn't mean we weren't feminists or like didn't
have a brain that like. I saw it because I
thought I would be a like really upset and annoyed
by it, and so we watched it kind of as

(15:09):
like a joke. Yeah, and you know, sure enough, I
fucking hated it. I may have written about it at
the time. This was back when I was doing a
lot of like writing. I mean, I was like a
full time writer on various websites. Wow brag, thank you.
But yeah, I'm pretty sure I wrote an essay about
it for Paste at the time, not about Sausage Party

(15:31):
in particular, but like this like manchild comedy that I
think has since this is kind of like as far
as I can tell, at least in the hugely popular
sense kind of the tail end of it. Yeah, and
it had a fucking run. I would say that this
like style of broadly offensive humor that employs all of

(15:53):
these fucking tropes that says it saying something, but it's not.
And it's pretty fucking evil, is they. It had a good,
like decade long kind of choke hold on comedy in.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Movies, and it was like the Judd Apatow era.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Well, it's like yeah, and it's like that's the thing
that's fascinating, frustrating whatever about it is like even Judd
Apatow and Seth Rogan don't do shit like this anymore
because I don't think that they can get away with it.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yeah, and I know Seth has Seth Rogan not been like, oops,
I made some stuff back in the day that I
can't really vouch for anymore. Did that happen, Yes, definitely, Yeah,
he did so.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah. I think it is kind of interesting that in
the last two years, it appears this like started in
twenty twenty one, Seth Rogan has attempted to sort of
address past offensive both like content in movies and treatment
of people, if not from him specifically by a production

(16:58):
that he was involved whether or in charge of. So.
Examples would include i'ma Watson and this is the end
Catherine Heigel in Knocked Up, and I'm also seeing an
incident regarding a child actor in Good Boys, a movie
I did not see having their skin darkened. Oh yeah,

(17:20):
So there was this sort of I don't want to
be too reductive and say apology tour like, but a
series of like this is such a I don't know,
but they're okay in any case. My opinion is that

(17:41):
Sausage Party is too recent to be doing but it
does feel like this all that to say, Sausage Party
feels like arriving at the tail end of this style
of comedy being extremely mainstream popular.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, and it still has a long way to go,
but there was kind of like a cultural turning point,
like right around this time where media and especially comedy
wasn't so reliant on reductive stereotypes and tropes and punching

(18:19):
down humor, which we've talked about many times on the show.
That became way less popular right around this time.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yes, and this it's because the Bechtel no kidding.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, no, we fixed the world. You're welcome, everybody, no
of it.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I do think it like has I mean whatever, We're
not historians or anthropologists, but this comes out, you know,
the summer before the twenty sixteen election, which I feel
like was a marked kind of a huge shift in
demanding better representation for sure in movies. Was that successful

(18:56):
still TBD, working on it, work in progress. But I
do take a little bit of comfort in watching this
movie that was a hit in twenty sixteen and feeling
pretty confident that it probably couldn't even get green lid
here right now. So that makes me feel a little better.
But yeah, I saw this movie as a joke. I

(19:17):
have not thought of it since really, I mean to
the point where I literally wrote a book about hot
dogs and didn't even think to include it. Right.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, it has no lasting legacy, which is comforting.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, and I don't think I think, especially because of
the style of humor being so broad and I think evil,
as well as the labor issues that sort of stuck
to this movie for several years. I know that there's
been interest in a sequel from Seth Rogan, but I
just personally I don't see it happening. However, Caitlin. In

(19:52):
October twenty twenty two, Sausage Party Food Topia, a sequel
series based on the film, was greenlt from Amazon Studios.
So too, well, you know, uh, look at look at God,
which is what this movie says it's about, but it's not. Yeah,
should we get into. This movie really is viscerally upset. Yeah,

(20:16):
and it's there's so many like I mean, this is
true of a lot of the there's like a lot
of performers I genuinely enjoy in this movie.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
And there's so many people that are too good for
the Why is Selma Hike in this?

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Oh God? I mean we'll get into I mean, I
I at very least hope that people were well some
I don't. I don't even know. I don't know, I
don't know. I'm so like, oh, I don't know, Yeah,
why did they? I just feel deflated?

Speaker 3 (20:45):
Same. Well, let's take a quick break and regroup. Yes,
and then we'll come back for a recap that will
just upset us again. Great, So we'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
And we're back, all right. Can I just quickly read
off the cast for this movie? Please? Okay? It really
is all okay, seth Rogen, Michael Sarah Kristen Wick, Edward Norton,
question Mark, David Crumb, Holds h betrayal, Salma Hayak, Bill Hayter.

(21:23):
I think comes out the worst, yeah, out of the
whole cast. And that's saying something. Craig Robinson, Nick Kroll,
James Franco, Jonah Haill, Andrews Home, Danny McBride, how dare he?
Paul Rudd, It's just come on, come on, yeah, all
of you, all of you, shame on you, except for

(21:47):
I would say Salama hyak, everyone else, shame on you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
But also her character. We'll get there, Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
I don't know. So I don't know. I hope they
paid her a lot of money. But also, oh my god,
we didn't what they probably didn't. Why would you do this?
How I can't imagine outside of money, you know. I
just don't know. I just don't know. I was thinking
about this the other day when I was watching a

(22:16):
video of Bill nigh he O King, who describes walking
around the set of Pirates of the Caribbean when he
was playing Davy Jones, just saying the money, the money,
the money. I was like, I hope, oh wow, oh
he's the best of him.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Sausage party. So most of the movie.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Takes place at a grocery store called Shop Wells. We
meet a few hot dogs in a pack. Frank voiced
by Seth Rogen.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
As a hot dog. He's Frank hilarious. I'm laughing already. Wait,
but do the buns have tits? This is so upset
gender essentialism with hot dogs, like oh oh oh, that's nasty.
There's a whole spiel I have that's fucking filthy.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Another hot dog is Carl voiced by Jonah Hill and
Barry voiced by Michael Sarah. These hot dogs, along with
all of the other food and condiments and household products
in this grocery store, are sentient, and their goal is
to be selected by people who the food thinks are gods.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Okay, so quick energ I'm gonna try to try my
best to enjoy this episode more by interjecting with hot
dog facts. I love please that dogs are now sentient. Yes, no,
I will say that there is not that. I think
that anyone who was writing this movie was thinking a
thought the entire time. Correct, But there is a weird

(23:55):
precedent for like picturing like hot dogs specifically, but also
a lot of food of just like anthropomortiizing food in
a way that is like begging you to eat it
in a way that's kind of nasty. And there's one
particular hot dog statue that is I've seen it across
the country. I want I don't know. I didn't. This
was not an international project, so I can only speak

(24:17):
to the US. If you're a listener outside of the
US that has seen this hot dog statue, please let
me know. It's so gross. It is a It's first
of all, it's huge, It's like six feet tall, and
it's it sort of is anthropomorphized in the Mickey Mouse
way that that these hot dogs are. They got the
white gloves, they got the little legs, whatever, you gotta
make them look like something. And I feel like the

(24:38):
Mickey Mouse method is most common. But this hot dog
is slouching over. He's holding I say he because it
seems like that's what again, the gender is antalism of
hot dogs.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
People love to gender hot dogs as men and more specifically.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Horny man heenuses, okay, whatever, but the hot dog is
louched over. He's also got teeth hat that yeah, I mean,
so does Frank. And you're like, well, it like you
could have a whole thing that There's this amazing video
from this YouTuber named Mike's Mike where he breaks down
everything about the movie Cars that is like body horror,

(25:16):
and you could have a very similar video about this.
But the hot talk statues holding ketch him in one hand,
mustard and another squeezing it all over on himself and
licking his teeth like he's dressing himself to be eaten
by you. But he also looks like he's kind of
in pain. Oh No, it's disgusting and it's so big.
And then I looked it up online. It costs like
twelve hundred dollars. I'm like, why would you buy this?

(25:39):
Why would this be in your house? So this is
they wanted to put that on the cover of my
book and I was like, you can't. You can't do that.
You can't do that. I'm gonna send you a picture please.
It's so nasty.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
So this is like just a piece of like decorative
art question mark that you can buy and have in
your house.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
No, so it's used mostly. I mean I guess you could,
but it's used mostly in hot dog restaurants. Oh, I see,
but true. I mean, this thing is being sold for
two thousand dollars on eBay and it's disgusting. It's so gross.
And then in Chicago, what is more common practice is
they will break off the arm holding the ketchup bottle.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Oh, because Chicago hot dogs are all about mustard.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
They're all no there, it's well, they're they they're all
about a lot of things, but they're more about like,
no ketchup. I see Okay, are you seeing this? Oh
my god, it's it's thank you.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
It's even worse than I was picturing in my head.
The face is really troubling.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
It's perverse. Also, he's like wearing sneakers and socks and
has teeth, and I'm just like, this is too far.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Wait, I'm just the one I'm seeing. He's like licking
his lips. Yes, so it has a tongue.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yes, I've seen variants that have teeth. There's a few
different variants on this. But and then there's also one
that's wrapped in an American flag, because this is so
you know, the hot dog is so tied into American jingoism,
even though it's not an American dish. It's fucking Greek
and Polish. But whatever, al right, sorry, sausage party.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
So yeah, we meet all these hot dogs. Also, these
hot dogs are not being refrigerated. They're just on a
regular ass shelf, nasty next to buns.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
I would rather they refrigerate the buns.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
That's fine, Yeah, right, you can do that, you can. Yeah,
they last longer probably, but yeah, no, there's just like
room temperature hot dogs and we're supposed to be rooting
for them. Yeah right, Okay, So the whole thing is
that all the food revers humans as gods and they

(27:50):
want to be taken out of the store to the
quote unquote Great Beyond. Because the food does not know
that its purpose is to be eaten. They think that
they're going to be taken out of the store and
it's going to be this wonderful paradise because the movie
is an allegory for religion, and the food believes this

(28:12):
dogma about the Great Beyond basically being heaven all this stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yes, this is like the beginning of this movie's attempt
to make comment on faith, right, I feel was not
very well done, but you can tell they're attempting it, yes, right, Yeah, So.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
The main thing with the hot dogs, who again are
coded as men, and we'll talk all about the coding
and the gender essentralism of all of this, but the
hot dogs who are men are excited. The main thing
that they're excited about is that they will be put
inside the hot dog buns who are coded as women.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
And also coded as sentient vaginas. Right, and well, here's
what happens is that the here's the thing for me,
this is complicated stuff.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
The hot dogs being put inside hot dog buns is
this very nuanced, subtle metaphor for heterosex. You probably didn't
know that until I explained it, because it's just so
subtle or.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
Really subtle, and it's like, let's yeah, let's it's it's
really a hetero. And it's also very uh, everything in
this on this shelf is uh sis hetero. I'm like, correct,
they're fucking hot dogs.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Stop it, stop it? What? Uh yeah? The SCENTI and
I will say that the design, I mean whatever, animation wise,
the character design of the hot dogs. I'm not super upset.
I don't love to see teeth inside of a hot dog,
but I guess it's scarier if there's no teeth, if
we're anthrop whatever. The buns, Oh no, inexcusable, bad, bad, bad,

(30:02):
They're all because I feel like there's all these jokes
that have ablest coding to them of like a smooshed bun,
or like a hot dog that isn't like the correct
quote unquote shape or size or whatever, which is not
just ablest coded, very very clearly. It's also like, but
the regular buns don't look like hot dog buns because

(30:24):
regular hot dog buns don't have todays and a big
old butt like we talk, and like hot dog bus
are not like famously curvy, like what are you talking about? More?
And I hate the sideways. Oh they don't have that's

(30:44):
so okay. Why does seth Rogen hot dog have teeth?
Christm wigbun no teeth, Sideway's mouth, no teeth.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
The character design in this movie is just I hate it.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, but the vagina buns I have, really I have,
it's so hard to look at. Yeah, so, and you're
just like, but vaginas are literally beautiful, Wow, why would
you do that? And also it's like I don't like
it's just all like the fact that I mean, we've
talked about this in animation before, where anything remotely woman coded,

(31:21):
and like we've been talking about this since the Ghostbusters
episode where it's like male coded animated characters can look
like anything. Women have to have a fucking huge like iftimes,
like distinct boobs and butt, which is obviously like not
knocking anyone who has boobs and butt? Like, whatever, how
dare you so? I have boobs and butt? What do

(31:43):
you say? I have a butt? I technically have boobs.
It's fine, Like it's fine, it's body. But like, you know,
we can't look like anything.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Right, we It's it's a very specific like western beauty
standards body shape and size that is ascribed to female
characters in animation.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
But Kaitlyn, why why for.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
A hot dog bun?

Speaker 2 (32:06):
The hot dog is, well, the hot dog, but even
by this movie's logic, the hot dog is clearly supposed
to be penis coated. Right, it's a sentient thick and
it's horny, because that's how we essentialize male sexuality. Right.
The bun is vagina, But vaginas don't have boobs. It's

(32:27):
kind of if that would mean you're so sick if
that was happening. I just don't know, Like I just don't, like, yeah,
vaginas don't have butt.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
They don't have an ass, they don't they don't have titties.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Not to be a woman in stem but they don't.
But it's like it's so perverse to me that like
even just making the character a sentient vagina was not horny. Enough,
they also had to give the vagina. Yeah, boobs and
a butt. It doesn't make sense and it looks horrible.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
It looks like shit.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
It's so cross not knocking the animators. I'm sure that
the creatives insisted on this.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
Yeah, the animators aren't designing the characters. No, So whoever
was responsible for character design really needs to.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Really, I this movie is like truly chaotic evil on
every level, and these things are sort of like occurring
to me as we go, like, Wow, they really put
boobs and a butt on a vagina. Yes, that is correct.
We're never gonna be any free. This is just like
a nightmare. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
So the main bun character who we meet and follow
throughout the movie is Brenda voiced by Kristin Wig. She
is Frank's girlfriend love Kristin Wig same and the following
day is the fourth of July, which means that it's
pretty likely that the hot dogs and buns will be
taken out of the store to the Great Beyond and

(33:59):
Frank Brenda will finally get to have sex. Yeah, sure enough,
Frank's pack of hot dogs and Brenda's pack of buns
are selected from the shelf and put into a cart
by one of the quote unquote gods aka a woman.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
But before this happens, they have some sort of sexual contact.
They have touched tips, yeah, which is later used. And
I saw reviews at this movie that were like, this
is the commentary on Christian values, and you're like, shut up,
they're like that they touch tips, They touch fingertips, right,

(34:38):
but it's like a sexually coated like yeah, whatever, touch
tips fine, which is then used for the rest when
things go wrong in the movie. As time goes on,
Brenda thinks that this is because she had any sort
of pre marital or like pre whatever.

Speaker 4 (34:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
She thinks she's being punished by the gods for having
pre marital sexual contact with Frank.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Which I guess you could argue comes around in the end,
but not in a very satisfying way. And it and
also just like the way that they're and again I
know that this was argued as commentary, but it just
it didn't argue with me. Were at the beginning, the
hot dogs are just like, we want to fucking fucking fuck,
and then the bun ladies are like, we want to

(35:23):
be loved.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Me and we went to I wrote it down, it's
we went to love and hug and feel and share
me via because women be having emotions and men only
want to have sex.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Ha ha ha. I mean I want to love and
feel and share too, but people of all genders want
to love and feel in chair and also people, what
the fuck? This movie is so essential as it's so boring.
I hate it.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
It sucks.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Sorry.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Okay, So Frank and Brenda have been put in a cart. Yeah,
but there's this jar of honey mustard that had been
purchased by mistake and gets returned to the store. So
he went out into the quote unquote Great Beyond or
the like unknown area beyond the store, write how could you?
And then the honey mustard ends up in this woman's

(36:13):
cart with Frank and Brenda, and the honey mustard tells
everyone what he has discovered about what actually happens in
the Great Beyond. It is a hellscape where food is eaten.
So chaos ensues upon hearing this news, and a bunch
of food goes flying out of the cart, including Frank

(36:34):
and Brenda because they've gotten loose from their packaging. The
store closes shortly thereafter, and Frank and Brenda, who are
now just sort of like loose in the store. They
set off to find other packages that they can sneak
into in the hopes that they will still be chosen
and taken to the great beyond, although Frank is now

(36:58):
skeptical and once more information because what if the honey
mustard was right and.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
The honey mustard tells him to go see a bottle
of firewater? Yes? And also we haven't brought up because
I don't know why this is like truly writing wise,
even if we're just looking at this as writers, I
don't know why the character of Douche, that's right, Oh,
the big bat of this movie is called Douche. I

(37:27):
don't know why there's like randomly a villain, Like it's
not even necessary to the shitty story that's being told
for there to be this villain, right, Like the crisis
of faith in the Quest is enough. You don't need. Yeah,
the villain of the movie's named Douche.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yes, yeah, and you're never gonna he's about to come.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Up, which I'm like, do they even sell those at
the grocery store? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
But also it's such a clear indication that this movie
was written by men, and all the major creative makers
of this movie were men. Because like, and not to
make sweeping generalizations here, but I have never known a
person who has a vagina to ever use a douche

(38:12):
in my entire life. And maybe that's just something that
people tend to keep private, but also like me and
my friends talk about this stuff all the time, and
like you learn at an early age if you have
a vagina that.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Douching is not good for you.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
It's like it cause yeast infections, and like my mom, yeah,
like that's something you learn early on and it's like
advised that you don't do it. And so no one
I know with a vagina has ever used so a douche.
But the guys who wrote this movie were like, oh,
what's a product that a woman would buy?

Speaker 2 (38:48):
A douche? I have. Unfortunately, I do have some information
on this from what is health dot Gov about dushing,
So douching is not necessarily uncommon. I will agree with you.
I have no I've ever known. I've never I mean
I've never used one, and I don't know anyone who
has because my mom told me when I was young
that it is like you're saying, like, Okay, here's some

(39:10):
information on douching. Yes, so everyone knows this is from
the government. Can we trust them? Duching is washing or
cleaning out the vagina with water or other mixtures of fluids.
In the United States, almost one in five women fifteen
to forty four years old. Again, the definition of a
woman being very narrow there because it's the fucking government,

(39:31):
but almost one in five fifteen to forty four years
old douche. Doctors recommend that you do not douche. Douching
can lead to many health problems, including problems getting pregnant.
Douching is also linked to vaginal infections and sexually transmitted infections.
So and maybe it's a generational thing where it's like
they just people in our generation sort of learned that

(39:52):
it was not healthy. But again it's like seth broken
is like ten years old, Like it's just it. It
is like a lazy and the way that the character
it's so clear why they name that, because douche is
also like shorthand for an asshole, which is you know,
it happens all the time where anything vaguely feminine, Like

(40:14):
why is it like Michael Sarah says this at one
point because he's in this movie where it's like, you know,
if you're you're anything like feminine coded, there's like a
strong meaning too. That's why I'm very pro asshole. It
always works as an insult. You mean, yes, yes, it's
a great equalizer.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
I've replaced almost everything with like asshole or shithead or
something just like very.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Neutral because poo poo, and that's why we're so sophisticated.
But there's like Michael Sarah's Michael Sarah's character refers to
himself as a pussy at one point, which is a
classic example of like, you know, a vagina being weak.
You're like sure, but the same with like douche equals
bad because reasons. And the Nick Carl character is like

(41:03):
a Jim bro who I think, like you know, would
have this, would have douche attributed to him basically right.
But it's just like, I mean, not that the rest
of this movie. I thought that that was like especially
not just like more lazy like whatever, but also just
like weird writing because I don't think this movie even

(41:24):
needs a villain. I don't get it right.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Also, I did not even know what that was supposed
to be until the douche identifies himself as a douche
because I thought, like, douches aren't packaged that way. So
I was like, is that like a toilet brush and
it's like toilet brush container. That's what I thought it
was at first, because like, I like, I don't think
their package douches are packaged that way. Even it's in

(41:50):
like a Summer's Eve box and it's discreet anyway, So
I'm about, yeah, I'm about to introduce the douche character.
But before that, Brenda and Frank, who again are just
like loose and roaming through the store, team up with
a few other items that also flew out of the cart,
a levache named Kareem Abdullah Lavash voiced by David Crumholts

(42:13):
aka Bernard the Elf from the Santa Claus.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Another massive betrayal. Huge and this is again I'm like,
I didn't find any information on why this choice was made.
I don't know if you did. But the fact that
like David Crumholt is playing a character who is definitely
coded as being Middle Eastern and Muslim, which David Crumholts
is not. But David Crumholt is a Jewish Man.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
But the Jewish character aka Sammy Bagel Junior, who is
a Bagel Jewish by Edward Norton, like doing a Woody
Allen impression the whole time. And if you're wondering if
heinous stereotypes are employed here, oh.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, yeah, it's I mean it's it's truly. From what
I can tell is that the hot dogs are kind
of coded as Protestant Christian Christian white guys. Yeah, and
the buns are presented as Christian white girls. And then
everyone everyone else in the movie is I guess, with

(43:23):
the exception of Douche, is like pretty heavily stereotyped, like
a heavily stereotyped culture.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Right, So yeah, basically, I mean, and we'll get to
this in more detail, but the movie codes most of
the food in particular ways, often ascribing a particular race, ethnicity,
and or religion to several different food items. And with
that comes this just a whole slew of reductive and

(43:54):
harmful portrayals of marginalized communities. So that's what we're working with.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yes, I mean, that is most of what the movie
relies on. And we again, it's like Kaylin and I
discussed this before we started recording, where it's like we
will make note of like where these characters appear, but
I don't even like, we don't even really want to
harp on how deeply offense because it's like because.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
To describe the ways in which the offensive things are
happening is just like upsetting to do, and I don't
even want to like repeat it.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
So it's a yeah, it's a it's a waste of air,
but it is worth mentioning what is being done because
this was a successful movie fairly recently. It's such a bummer.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
Yeah, okay, So they team up with these couple other characters,
and then meanwhile, a douche voiced by Nick Kroll becomes
a villain because he wants revenge against Frank and Brenda
for getting him thrown away and damaged after that chart disaster.

(44:59):
So there's this random villain. Frank, Brenda and the others
make their way through the store. They pass through the
liquor aisle because Frank wants to talk to this Bottle
of Firewater, who is an indigenous coded character voiced by
Bill Hayter Yikes, who seems to know things about the

(45:24):
Great Beyond and how it might not be all that
it's cracked up to. Be Yes and Firewater tells Frank
that he and a few other non perishable items in
the store.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Who don't worry, are also all wildly stereotyped.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
For sure, they invented the idea of the Great Beyond
in order to keep the food happy and unaware of
their impending doom. However, they note that it's been distorted
along the way, but if Frank wants proof of this,
he should go to the arc Aisle be on the ice. Meanwhile,

(46:03):
Brenda and the others get tricked by a bottle of
tequila who is trying to lead them to the Douche,
but a hard taco shell Teresa del Taco voiced by
Salma Hayek saves them. The douche is trying to like
attack them, but Brenda and the others get away. Then

(46:27):
this is this.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Movie is so evil. This movie is horrid, so evil.
There was a really good I thought piece in Salon
by Nico Lang when this movie first came out that
unpacked in particular, how infuriating it is that Salama Hiak's
character is written the way she is, not only because
it's I mean, because it's like racism and cultural stereotypes

(46:51):
on top of sexism, like it's just like a two bunch,
And Salmahayak has been so historically outspoken about how frustrating
it is to be a Latin actor and be treated
like this repeatedly. I mean, Samahaiak, a Oscar nominated actor
for playing Freda that has to take parts like this,
And so I just wanted to share a quick quote

(47:13):
from Salamahayak. Yeah, because I love Samahaik and I just
really she says, I had things said to me that
you would not believe. A studio executive once informed Hayak
that she would be a much bigger star had she
been born in the United States. He allegedly told her
the moment you open your mouth, you remind everyone of
their maid. And there was another time. I mean, it's

(47:36):
and she's been again. She's been very outspoken about this
over the years and still has to take fucking parts
like this, which I think is a systemic failure for sure.
Another example she gave over the years was when she
was almost in and it wasn't specific about what movie,
but she was almost the lead in a sci fi
film that was being directed by a white guy. But

(47:59):
then the executive overruled her casting and forced uh the
director to drop Samahayak because they said a Mexican in space.
Then another movie that like isn't even good that you
remember that movie grown ups, it's like an Adam Sandler movie.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Oh yeah, I didn't see it either, but yeah, I
know of it.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
It's very an Adam Stanley movie. But Smahaiak, I guess
plays his wife in that movie, and he had to
fight for her to get that part. Like it's just
like she's Oscar nominated, Like it's she's unbelievably talented, Like
there's no need us to tell you how Hyak is
fucking awesome, but like, yeah, the way she's treated it

(48:39):
in particular, where I'm just like this is just fucking unacceptable.
And also Samahayak is a good like comedic actor too,
like if they but they're just like, ah, I hate it.
I hate it. And she's one of the few actors
who is cast as like her own race, where there's

(49:01):
many where.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
That is not the case because it's mostly white actors
voicing non white coded characters.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
I think, with the exception of Craig Robinson and Samahayak,
that is the case. Bill Hayter as Firewaters. It felt
like it was pulling from like the animated Peter Pan
from the nineteen fifties portrayal of Indigenous Americans for sure,
voiced by a white guy.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
Bill Hayter also voices Tequila and Elguaco, which are Mexican
coded characters.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Yeah, and also coded as being predatory. Yeah. And in
addition to this, is also pointed out in Nico Leang's
article that we will link is casting the only Indigenous
coded character as Firewater.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
As a bottle of liquor.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah, it's like, I think, pretty clearly mocking alcoholism and
indigenous can munities, which is a topic we've discussed in
other episodes. And like it's just cruel, Like it's just
I it is. It truly blows my mind that any
of this was argued as commentary, like that is you're

(50:14):
just doing the thing.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
It's such punching down humor dialed up.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
In a way that is like worse than the nineteen fifties.
Like what there, it's it's a lot, I mean, yeah,
it just really yeah, all right, so back to the movie.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
We then cut to the other hot dogs who remained
in the package and went home with that like Woman's Shopper,
and at the woman's house, Barry watches in horror as
food is peeled and chopped up and boiled and melted
and eaten. Carl is sliced in half, but Barry survives

(50:56):
and escapes. Back in the store, Brenda and the others
link back up with Frank, but none of them want
to go with him to the Dark Isle because they
still believe in the Great Beyond, so Frank has to
head to the Dark Isle alone. Back outside of the store,
Burry the hot Dog manages to stow away in some

(51:19):
dude's car. He thinks he's headed back to shop Wells,
but they end up at this guy's apartment where this
guy proceeds to do bath salts.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
I think this is the James Franco character. Yes, and
also bad I mean no, not, But like this movie
is already so dated where it's like, god, I don't know,
like bath salts no longer really a subject of discussion, right.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
It really puts this movie in a particular time in history.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
The two outside of just being straight up offensive, the
two things that felt the most dated to me were
the references to bat and also like the Jim bro humor,
which is I think it was just like done to
death and people are fucking tired of it and know
it like because that's every everything that comes out of

(52:12):
Douche's mouth is like, don't fucking leave it, bro, And
you're like, right.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
God know if that's just because I'm swiping left on
hundreds of men who seem to fit this description on
bumble and shit like that, but I feel like that
caricature of a of a man is still very much
a thing. It didn't that didn't even feel that dated
to me, so I decay, Yeah, yeah, it's worse than

(52:44):
we feared.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Anyway.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
Because this dude is on bath salts, he and Barry
can understand each other because the drugs enable him to
like see if this fourth dimension where he can see
the sentient food, And so they talk and the guy
promises to return Barry to the grocery store. Back at

(53:08):
the store, Brenda, Sammy, and Ravash finally make it to
their respective ales and part ways. Meanwhile, Frank reaches the
dark isle, which is full of knives and cookwar and
a cookbook that shows all of these recipes for preparing food,
which is proof that people eat food and that the

(53:30):
Great Beyond is a myth. But when Frank shows this
to all the other food in the store over a
video monitor and loud speaker, he's like, here's the truth,
and if you don't believe it, you're a fool. And
the food feels insulted, and they're like, this sounds like

(53:51):
another theory, and I choose to believe the more pleasant thing.
So none of the other food gets on board with him.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
Right, which is another sort of like I don't know,
I guess if you're listening, you feel however you wanted.
But I was like, this is like sort of another
like swipe that is at all religions so broadly as
to mean nothing, and also in kind of a way
that feels very I can't like it's still like twenty

(54:19):
sixteen was a little too late to still be attempting this,
but like suggesting like atheism is the only method, the
only way to like to freedom of your mind, which
just feels a little right. What's his name? Bill? Who's
the guy?

Speaker 3 (54:36):
Hmmm?

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Oh my god, Bill, Bill, Bill fucking the guy on TV.
I'll science guy. No, I don't. I think he's respectful
of other people's religions. I hope. No, I'm thinking of Bill,
not Bill NYI. And that's what comes from pole him
all the time. He's on HBO Bill Maher, Bill, Oh

(55:00):
my god, Bill Mahers, who's just like a kind of
like fucking asshole who has contempt for anyone that has
any sort of faith. That's not to say that faith,
that religion cannot be extremely repressive, obviously we know that,
but it's like it just feels like this and again
just a very overly simplistic like, well, if you didn't

(55:20):
believe in anything, maybe your life wouldn't suck so much.
You're like, well that feels a little a little broad
to me.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Definitely, Yes, this film. It's almost as if this film
lacks nuance.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
I know, I know. I'm just like we're wasting our time, Like, yeah,
what are we even doing by Jamie's book? But ya,
he's by my book. Please buy my book. It's nothing
like this. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
No, there's there's lots more to discuss and the movie
is almost over, so yes, Barry shows up after Frank
has tried to give this speech about what everyone should
believe or should not believe, and Barry's like, no, you
can't tell people that they're fools. If they don't believe you,
we have to do it a different way. So then
they shoot all of the people in the store with

(56:12):
toothpicks covered in bath salts. And because bath salts allow
the people and food to understand each other, the.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
People like it's the bath salt like a metaphor for
like empathy. I don't think they thought about it that hard.
I don't know, you're right, you're right here.

Speaker 3 (56:32):
But because the people are on bath salts, they start
freaking out and destroying the food, which allows the food
to see how evil and vicious the humans are that
they thought were gods, but they realize are actually monsters,
and they realized that Frank was right. So the food
fights back against the people. But this is when the

(56:55):
douche shows back up and puts himself up a store
employees butt and is like puppeting the store employee around
while he's holding a gun and trying to shoot the food.
But I've been so checked out by this point, as

(57:15):
like sure, I was watching it at like two times
speed by this point, and I feel like I missed
some stuff because I was like, I just need this
to end as quickly as possible.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I watched it twice to prepare, but yeah, the second
time I watched it on one point seventy five because
I'm just like this. It doesn't make a difference. It's
not like I'm ignoring something.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
There's nothing to take no anyway. Okay, So the villains
are trying to kill the food, but Frank and Brenda
and Barry defeat the bad guys and they save the
food in the store, and then the movie ends with
an orgy where all the food is having sex with
each other, and then there's another final beat where the

(57:59):
bottle of five water is like, by the way, none
of us are real, We're a cartoon invented by Seth Rogan.
So it tries to have this like clever meta ending,
but it also falls completely flat and sucks the end.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
And it's also weird that the only they're like which yeah,
which is like a very easy way to be like, yeah,
it was about nothing, right, it was about nothing because
it was like even with the ending again just like
shitty writing, where like the ending being like, oh now
everyone's like having this big food or a gee and

(58:34):
it's like not the rigid hetero like but it's still
like anytime there's queer sex, it's heavily commented on. And
then they even make Brenda Bunson feminist icon, you know,
sit next to Frank the hot Dog after and say like, well,

(58:55):
some like basically say that the queer sexual experience is
We're okay, but the best sex was with Frank the
hot Dog. Like you're just playing a hot dog? Did
you pick that up on that though, where like we
do get it, Like again, this is a victory for
nobody because again with Samaha playing a taco, that is yeah,

(59:21):
both racist and sexist vaginas have certainly been referred to
as tacos. And it's all like you don't need me
to explain this to you in the world, but like,
but at the end they do have. Okay, let's start there,
let's start. Let's start there. Yes, let's take first and

(59:44):
then will be right back. Please buy Raw Dog. Okay,
and we're back, and we're back. Seth Rogen says Raw Dog.
And I was like, this is bad press, that's blasphemy.
I've we've reclaimed brad Dog, We've taken it away from him.

(01:00:05):
It's not it's not for the hot Dog anymore. But
let's start with the story between Brenda and what is
Sama Hayek's character's.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Name, Teresa, And just just to contextualize this a bit
more before we dive in, which we've already mostly done,
but just to make it clear that, like, the hot
dogs are all coded as men and more specifically penises,
because there's all these jokes and even like a whole
storyline about how Bury the hot dog like feels insecure

(01:00:35):
because he's not as long as the other hot dogs
but he is gurthy and like all this stuff. And
then the hot dog buns are coded as women slash vaginas,
but again, like the vagina buns also have boobs.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
The point is it's very.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Gender essentialist and reductive, and it's basically just saying like, and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Brenda Bunsen says, I'm so tight, and like it's just like.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Right, all these like attempts at jokes of how hahaha,
bond equals vagina, hot dog equals penis, which is like
the easiest and most unoriginal joke in the world, And
yet the whole movie hinges on this very lazy, obvious
joke as if it's some brilliant bit of comedy that

(01:01:22):
no one's ever thought of before and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Then on top of that, penis equals ma always man, Ye,
vagina equals always went like, it's very sis normative as well,
and it's right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
So not only is it reducing people to their genitals
in a way that means, oh, like men have dicks
and because of that, they're so fucking horny and all
they want to do is fuck all the time, and
reduces women to vaginas, and also like they have feelings

(01:01:52):
because they have vaginas, and it's very transphobic. And yeah,
just like reducing people to genitals and saying that only
you know, to be a man means you have this genitalia.
To be a woman means you have this genitalia. There's
no room for anyone on the gender or like intersex spectrum.
Just like it's just so rigid and binary.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
And unfortunately, it's really difficult to discuss this movie without
that constantly being the case. So we apologize if if
we sound like we it's just really it's really hard
to talk about this movie without feeling like you're aligning
with that. Obviously that is not how we align, but
this is just like the interior logic of the movie

(01:02:35):
is so fucked and assumes so much that it's it's
just like it's very difficult to have this right conversation. Yes,
please buy rod Dog, but okay, so we have Teresa
del Taco, Yes, okay, Del Taco is. You know, if
you live in the US, you probably know an American

(01:02:58):
fast food chain. American, but it's like americanized Mexican food,
so already yeah lazy. But Teresa is I mean, she's
a queer character who is immediately interested in Brenda, and
like it's like implied that that's why Teresa helps the

(01:03:19):
gang is because she has a thing for Brenda. We
see a lot of very like again, you're like, what
are we doing here? From Teresa's perspective, we see her
constantly looking at Brenda's but like objectifying her. I feel
like this movie. And then there is like a scene
where again it's just like not like Brenda is I

(01:03:43):
think like a queer character because she says when she
and Teresa go their separate ways, like basically says like
I'm interested, but but.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
This religion we believe in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
It would be against god right to have, which I
think think is like again, the attempt that this movie
is making to be like religion is so oppressive. And
then at the end it comes around and everyone has
a big orgy and you know, Teresa and Brent dadu
have sex, or it's implied that everyone kind of has

(01:04:16):
sex with everyone. But I do think and like, the
way that queerness is treated in this movie is obviously bad,
oh for sure. Okay, well to the point where there's
a broad stereotype that isn't even like current. I'm like,
how old are you? People? Like, we're very but like
the entire fruit section of the grocery store is queer

(01:04:39):
coded and mostly queer coded as men, yeah, gay men
and yeah. So just again, because this movie is so
gender essentialist, there is no real in between in terms
of the gender spectrum, and we see queer men even
though it's I feel like this was a time where
it was like, well, any representation, you should be thrilled
that we included this. I'm acknowledging, can you exist?

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
And that's good enough.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Where there's already I mean, it's so unshocking that they
were working on this movie since two thousand and eight,
because this feels more twenty eight than twenty sixteen, for sure,
but that was when it was released, so you know,
fuck you, but the like there's a fair amount of
no homoing oh between hot dogs so much. But then
when there are queer men, they're treated differently from queer women,

(01:05:23):
which I know, again is essentialist, but it's something we've
talked about before, where when they're queer women, it's very
like ooh, this is sexy, this is leering, this is
blah blah blah, and then when it's queer men, it's
like funny and like it's I don't even I don't
even really know what word to describe how because at
the end, Sammy Bagel Junior and Kareem Abdul Levache hilarious

(01:05:50):
by the way, I have sex, the Bagel says he
has a boner. I'm like, well, I understand why you
haven't attempted to show it, because what does that even mean?
What does that mean? What that look like? Yeah, doesn't
make sense, but those characters are so offensive and like, okay,
so anyways, I thought it was interesting that Brenda and

(01:06:12):
Teresa are like acknowledged to be queer by the plot,
but like it's just so everything is so halfway because
even like their interest in each other is still treated
in a clearly written by straight men perspective.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
Lazy, yeah, mostly played as a joke, nothing interesting or
meaningful being done with it. Yeah, so yeah, which is
also what happens with uh. And again we touched on this,
and it's not worth going into the details the specific
examples because they're so upsetting, but just the racism, xenophobia,

(01:06:54):
anti Islam, anti Semitic also like and it's so.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Well that and yeah, that's that's the one. We talked
about this a little bit as well, where that's I
think the one. I'm curious what are our Jewish listeners think,
but they're like, that feels like the only the only
subject on which this group of writers has any leeway
on because the story and the original like concept of

(01:07:20):
this movie is by Seth Rogen, Evan Goldberg, and Jonah Hill,
who are all Jewish writers. And you know, I still
think this movie sucks no matter what, but I do
want to acknowledge that there is a pretty well storied
history of Jewish writers poking at tropes surrounding Jewish characters
and also surrounding Nazism, which this movie also does. There

(01:07:45):
is president for that. It's obviously done way better by
artists like mel Brooks and like, I but I that's
the only where I I don't know where to land
on that because I'm not Jewish and I don't want to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
I mean, we talked about this on the Borat episode
as well. Yes, yes, on the is that a Matreon episode? Gosh,
I've lost all track of what is where?

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
Yes, I think that it was when we covered Borat
on the Matreon where it is like we did that.
I can't I mean feminist masterpiece, it was said. But
in any case, I, uh, yeah, I don't want to,
you know, come down on the side of like Jewish
writers cannot make any commentary on Jewish history in the

(01:08:33):
form of a comedy. There's plenty of it. I just
personally don't think anything is well done in this movie, right,
But that's the one thing that I'm like, well, I
don't really feel qualified to have a take on on that.
I feel the same, however, we would be curious to
know what our Jewish listeners think. I mean, it's just like,
I just can't believe anyone liked this movie. It's so

(01:08:57):
confusing to me. I wanted to quote a Lindy West
piece that's also mentioned in this Nico Lang piece. You
gotta love Lindy West. She said this back in twenty twelve,
where basically in the press tour for this movie, as
we've alluded to, the writers would say like, oh, this

(01:09:19):
is equal opportunity, like offensiveness, Like we know that it's
broad stereotypes, like, but it's with everyone. I think that
that and that's sort of where they're poking at Jewish
stereotypes come in, where they're like, we're doing it to ourselves.
Too cool if we do it to everybody. So that
is sort of the acknowledged ethos of how this movie

(01:09:40):
was put together. It's like we're not exempt, so you're
not exempt. So this is from a Lindy West essay
for Jezebel in twenty twelve. She says, quote, the problem
is that all people are not equal in positions of power,
which is true because it's like these guys are making
the movie like they're There is is one listed producer

(01:10:03):
who is a woman, Megan Allison, who is, if I
were to guess what, is probably involved mostly in the
in the animated portion because she works at Annapurna where
the animation took place, which we'll get to in a second.
It doesn't seem like there were any women that had
any say in you know, how this was made. Nor

(01:10:23):
were there any Muslim writers, nor were there any Mexican writers,
nor were their indigenous writers, nor were their black writers,
and on and on and on and on and on.
It was just these guys. So that logic does not
it doesn't hold.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
Up, does it doesn't work work? And and if they
were actually like poking fun at everyone, because these these
filmmakers are only poking fun at already marginalized people and
not like commenting on fucking billionaires and racists and like
people who should actually be which which is like criticized

(01:11:01):
for their behavior, and.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
Not that that's the duty of any like of all movies.
You can have movies that are not like you know,
explicitly anti capitalist and all this stuff. And this movie
is trying to say something about religion, but it's just yeah,
like as far as the stereotypes are deployed, it seems
like just for shock value, Like definitely it has nothing
to really do with the larger plot, which is like

(01:11:25):
basically incoherent to me. It's just like it's mean, and
it's lazy, and it's and it's it's a bit evil, definitely,
and I read god, I read, I read an example again,
read an example that so Evan Goldberg and seth Rogen
also said that they consulted friends to make sure their

(01:11:47):
equal opportunity offensiveness wasn't just plain offensive. Carmichael, who is
not in this movie, but he's in neighbors another seth
Rogen joint of this area, Drod Carmichael, told BuzzFeed that
Goldberg would come to him to vet the movies more
problematic content. Is this racist? Goldberg inquired on more than
one occasion, and then Nico Lang says, in an industry

(01:12:08):
where people of color continued to be stereotyped and shut out,
it seems that if Goldberg had to ask, he already
knew the answer, which I think is an excellent point
and it probably very true. I don't even want to
say what it was going to be. But the Craig
Robinson character, who is called mister Grits, which Jesus Christ,
was originally going to be even more offensive. And the

(01:12:31):
original version of the Craig Robinson character, which was just
explicitly anti black like, tested very very poorly, and there
was at the movie's original premiere someone I guess confronted
Zeth Rogan about it and was like, you can't fucking
do this, dude, Like this is disgusting. But that's the
only change that I saw an example of being changed.

(01:12:54):
Everything else stayed as is, which again it's like what
if someone hadn't said something, and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Like and and that would just be out in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
I mean, not that what is out, not that mystery,
but Ris is doing anything, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
It's just mean Levache, Like all of the every character
fucking fire every I mean, it's like, there's no there's
no like except for this character, which makes a ton
of sense, Like no, no, pinous because you brought up
Lyndy West, who is an activist against fat shaming and
fat phobia.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
And so just famously one of my favorite writers.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
Oh she's terrific. It just reminded me of how much
fat shaming there is in this movie, where like the
other food characters are fat shaming. Brenda the Bun another
character I forget who it is, but says that people
like humans are to blame for getting fat because of

(01:13:51):
all the all the food they consume. Just like all
this like horrible fat phobic rhetoric.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Yeah, it's just bullshit like everything, like basically every word
and this movie is bullshit and all and also like
it upholds obviously, it upholds all of like all of everything,
but even in a way that like I don't understand
because it's it's like, this is a movie written by
Jewish writers who are going with their ethos of what

(01:14:18):
they say they're doing. We're not exempt either, but the
main character seems like he's coded as like a white Christian,
so it's like, right, so it seems like, oh, well,
the white Christian hero fucking cis hot dog guy is
still the most curious of everyone and like finds the
truth and unites every culture. And it's like that's like,

(01:14:42):
what is what are you doing? That's all movies like,
that's like fucking I I I don't, I don't know,
I like it. Obviously this movie makes no sense.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Uh. Well, to piggyback on that, there's there's classic sexism
happening with that too, because again, Frank is this character
who's like, wait a minute, I'm a skeptic. Now I
have to seek the truth, you literally, Bill Maher. Yeah,
he sets out to make the documentary religulous, you know,

(01:15:15):
and he's like, what's going on? But Brenda, his girlfriend,
refuses to listen to Frank about the possibility that the
great Beyond might not be real. And yes, he is
being very condescending and patronizing while he talks about it.
But one of the few female characters in the movie

(01:15:35):
is presented as being irrational and overly driven by her emotions.
And again, he's interested in seeking the truth. She's just like,
I'm gonna, you know, blindly follow what I already believe.
I'm not going to interrogate anything. And then she tries
to like make him jealous. When he's like, well, I

(01:15:56):
can't even have a rational conversation with you, She's like, oh, yeah,
well I'm gonna go fuck a pickle.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
And it's just like, well, it's like also that there.
This is like because they're like still in their package
that's supposed to be this really like sophisticated metaphor for
Virginia purity, but it's still more like so but you know,
by the hot dog, but blah blah blah, like it's

(01:16:21):
still more emphasized in the female coded uh, Like it's
more important that the buns are never been used than
the hot dogs. Which is ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (01:16:33):
Yeah, yeah, it is gross. Also there's all this like
male gaze ye animation slash cinematography again, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
The shot where dude's just talking about like I can't
wait to get inside this woman. Guarantee, these writers do
not know how any of this would actually go. But
there's this like leering shot of like a cartoon while vagina,
and you're like, why, yeah, why why why why we

(01:17:06):
already have like oh, in case the vagina buns that
also have boobs and butts weren't enough for you, like
got you, got you? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
Yeah, So that's gross. Uh. I want to talk about
the production and animation, Yes, specifically the way that animators
were treated on this movie. I'm pulling from a couple
of different sources. One is a Washington Post piece, one
is a screen Rent piece. So there was this Q

(01:17:40):
and a published on an animation news website called.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
Cartoon Brew cartoon ber Rocks.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
And so there's a Q and a with the two
directors of this movie, Greg Tiernan and Conrad Vernon, And
the comments section of this Q and a basically turned
in who the animators commenting anonymously complaining about the working
conditions on the movie, and so like that's kind of

(01:18:10):
how this information came to be a public information. So
the animators complained about director Greg Tiernan, who runs the
animation company Nitrogen, who handled the animation for Sausage Party.
He runs it with his wife Nicole Stin.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
Also, unfortunately, we do have to claim that Sausage Party
is Shrekian in that Conrad Vernon, one of the co
directors on feminist masterpiece Shrek two.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
Wow, Yeah, really quite Shrekian.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
Sorry to interrupt your very important discussion of labor rights,
but no, it's it's It's.

Speaker 3 (01:18:56):
Also true it's important to know when a show.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
When Shrek's when Shreks go wrong. Okay, but this is
a very fascinating thing that has can I feel like
it's a more popular discussion now, this seems like a
more early example of it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:12):
Yes, So the animators were complaining that mister Greg would
have enraged outbursts. There was a lot of micromanagement of
the animators and most despicably, a lot of labor that
went unpaid because animators were forced to work overtime and

(01:19:36):
would not be paid for it. Yes, I'll quote an
excerpt from the Washington post piece. The production costs were
kept low because Greg would demand people work overtime for free.
If you wouldn't work late for free, your work would
be assigned to someone who would stay late or come
in on the weekend. Some artists were even threatened with

(01:19:59):
termination and for not staying late to hit a deadline.
So basically, animators, if they wanted to keep their job,
were forced to work over time for free. If they refused,
they would potentially be fired. Many animators who worked on
the movie were not credited as having worked on the
movie because many of them quit because of the horrible

(01:20:22):
working conditions before the movie was finished, and anyone who
quit was not credited even though they worked on the
movie for like over a year. Also, when animators tried
to quit and like put in their notice, executives at
Nitrogen would threaten to damage their reputations, which like is

(01:20:43):
a pretty big deal because like getting blacklisted in this
industry is a real concern. Like if you get blacklisted,
like it is really hard to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
Fuck your career and they know that permanently.

Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
Yes, Like yeah, So the animators were just like treated
horribly and because the animation was happening in Vancouver, and
Nitrogen is a Vancouver based company, which is like outside
of the jurisdiction and protections of the Animation Guild in
the US, they like weren't protected. I did read that. Eventually,

(01:21:17):
when Annapurna, which was like the production company that financed
the movie, learned about all of this like labor mistreatment,
they stepped in. They made sure the animators were paid
for their overtime, and they were like they made sure
that the animators were being fed because a lot of
them had to work these late hours in an area

(01:21:38):
that was like difficult to get food, and so they
like unless they brought their own food, they would have
to work with like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
No access to food.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
And like it's pretty standard for like especially on like
film sets, for the production of the movie, to feed
the cast and crew. Like it's not people's responsibility who
work on a on a production to feed themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
So this is so, like, this is I've I'm very i'mried.
I don't because you said you remember hearing about this
time at the time. I didn't know about this at
the time, just because I love I mean, I work
in animation. I love animation, and this is so this
is like so I mean labor disputes are typical across entertainment,

(01:22:23):
across everywhere, but like in animation specifically, it is like
improved so little over the years that I'm glad that
there was a settlement, but I'm also like, there's no
excuse for someone as powerful as this group of filmmakers
to accept making this a non union project like that

(01:22:44):
is absolutely unacceptable. You can't treat your workers that way,
and the reason you do is to save money and
to mistreat them because like you're saying, like this, this happens, this,
this has happened on animation shows that I've worked on,
and I've only ever worked as a writer. But even so,
it's like there's just still such an issue with how
animation is treated within entertainment. Not that there aren't major

(01:23:07):
labor issues in live action as well, but the unions
in live action tend to be a little stronger where
you have SAG that represents uh animation performers as well,
but not as often the WGA, who are it seems
about to strike and I'm very thrilled, but the WGA

(01:23:28):
still doesn't recognize most animation writers as writers that deserve
union protections, like ridiculous it blows. Like I love to
fucking run my mouth about this, but I've worked on
six television shows, but I'm not in the WGA because
I write in animation. It's ridiculous and like some are
fucking high budget, Like why does writing on Star Trek

(01:23:49):
not qualify you for the WGA. It's fucking ridiculous, and
it's there is very in animators, especially, I mean this
goes back to like Walt Disney union busting animators, like
during the production of like Pinocchio, Like this has been
going back.

Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
This has been going on in animation forever, getting back
to the Pinocchio Wars.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
Sorry, oh my god, I still have PTSD from the
Pinocchio Wars. But like there there's you know, animators have
had to repeatedly strike and still have I would say,
generally less protections than their live action counterparts, which is ridiculous,
especially because animation has grown only more popular and more

(01:24:33):
widely like every audience. It's it's like it was like, oh,
you make Kitty TV, like you don't do it, which
is also ridiculous. But now it's like there's animation across
the board. There's no reason that they shouldn't be treated equally.
It pisses me off, and I'm glad that they got
a settlement, but it's just like it's so transparent where

(01:24:53):
and this we like sort of talked about this a
little earlier, but how I think that like a similar
dispute that you see right now is going on with
the effects workers who work on Marvel movies, where there's
only so many production houses that do this. They're desperate
to stay in the good favor of Disney and Marvel.

(01:25:16):
It's always fucking Disney with this stuff. They want to
stay in the good graces of these huge contracts, and
so they'll work people to death and then like there
this was an issue with a director I generally like,
but Taiko yit when the last I didn't see it.
When his last Marvel movie came out, he was like

(01:25:36):
making fun of how the effects looked in interviews, which
prompted employees to be like, you didn't like, Marvel did
not give us the money or the time to finish
this fucking movie. How dare you like? It's ridiculous? He
sucked thor Love and Thunder was like, I didn't see it.
I mean, I guess it's like I was like Oh, well,

(01:25:58):
you can't always trust rotten tomatoes. But I did trust
Rotten Tomatoes on that one. Then I didn't see it. Yeah,
but yeah, it's just animation and effects. Workers are historically
treated like shit, and it's so like there's no there's
no excuse for anyone to do it, but particularly people
who are this powerful and have have access to the resources.

(01:26:19):
It's not like we're an indie company and like we
can only give you this much, which isn't acceptable either,
but at least there's some context for it. There's no
reason that this that a production of this level needed
to mistreat their workers so much, and that sucks because
then everyone had to work on sausage party like Okay, Well,

(01:26:44):
if you want to read more about labor rights in
the meat packing industry and also then you should pick
up a new book. It's out now. It's called Raw Dog.
I learned a lot about how meat packing employees as
well as animals are soverely mistreated in the process. Where
most grocery store hot dogs like frank are made. Also

(01:27:08):
do some discussion of vegan hot dogs of kosher hot dogs.
They're so the world of hot dogs is expansive. It's fast, fast,
and vast and much, you might even say, and much
like the animation workers' rights have not improved by very
much over the last one hundred years. So that's fucking sick.

(01:27:31):
We love that. We love that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:32):
Do you have anything else you want to say about
sausage Party?

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
No, me either, it passes, it passes the vectl as
but it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (01:27:42):
It doesn't matter. And the way women interact with each other,
which is not often because again there's only really two
there's one major female character in Brenda, and then there's
a more minor character in Teresa. Other than that, any
female coded characters have like maybe a line or two,

(01:28:02):
and even that's rare, So most of the characters we
meet are male coded, so there's really very little interaction
between women. Although Brenda and Theresa do pass the Bechdel
test because they talk about their sexual urges for each other.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
So right, and sure it counts, I count.

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
But but but the way that women or like female
coded characters interact with each other outside of that is
like a lot of like the buns will be calling
each other disparaging like sexist words like oh you bitch,
oh you skank, stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
Yeah, and then we referenced this. But I guess the
only other thing I have to say is the ableism
that's present in the Michael Sarah character, and also that
they suggest that he is disabled in some way and
that the only way that he could find a partner
is to find another disabled partner, which how that plays
out in the end, which is just I mean, like

(01:29:02):
it feels worth me. I don't even want to get
into it really because it's just so fucked and ugly.
And this this movie is I agree with letterboxed. This
movie is is evil. Yeah, I don't I don't want
to say another word about this movie. No nipples, don't
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
I would say negative five nipples and it's like a
special lea their negative five.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
This movie is evil.

Speaker 3 (01:29:27):
The last thing I'll say about it is it's especially
frustrating to me when there there's a movie that's attempting
to make commentary on some kind of like societal or
cultural thing, because it is attempting to say things like
having blind faith in a deity can be dangerous, or
which sure, attaching shame to sexuality and making people feel

(01:29:52):
shame if they have sex, like quote unquote out of wedlock,
or if they have sexual feelings toward someone of their
same gender, the way that a lot of religions do
you know, saying that that's wrong, or taking a religious
text and distorting it to push your own agenda of

(01:30:14):
prejudice and oppression, that's bad. Yeah, I agree with those things,
but for the movie to try to make those claims
and then turn around and put every reductive trope in
existence into the movie and punch down to so many
groups of marginalized people. Do you even hear yourself sausage party?

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Anyway? This movie sucks.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
I hate it. Negative five nipples and buy Jamie's book.

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):
Please buy my book Raw Dog. By changing lattist we're
gonna put we'll put the link for where you can
buy it. I prefer to use bookshop dot org. That
will automatically link you to the closest independent bookstore that
you can order it from and habit shipped from that
is carrying the book. And please tell your friends. It's

(01:31:05):
really helpful and I'm very proud of it. And also
if you live in the cities, let's see if I
remember of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Austin, Portland, Oregon, Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, Chicago,
and somewhere in Connecticut called the Mark Twain House. Those

(01:31:27):
are the eighth places I will be going to promote
the book. There will be events and we will link
tickets as well because I will be leaving this week,
so please please come.

Speaker 3 (01:31:37):
Out indeed and all the regular stuff. You can follow
us on Twitter and Instagram. You can go to our
Patreon aka Patreon and get access to two bonus episodes
every month, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes.
This month of May is my birthday and we are

(01:32:02):
doing Office Space and redoing Back to the Future because
our first Back to the Future episode has audio quality
that is not great and we have one of my
favorite movies, so I want to just do an updated
version of the episode.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
You can check out our merch at teapublic dot com
slash the Bechdel Cast if you are interested, grab a
little merch and hope to see you. Hope to see
you on the road soon. Love you, bye bye.

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