Slap Shot with Mike Loftus

In honor of Jamie’s birthday, we invited her dad to cover the episode he’s been asking about once a year for all seven years of the show! Mike Loftus, hockey writer extraordinaire, joins Caitlin and Jamie to discuss SLAP SHOT!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechde Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zephim fast start
changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Happy Birthday, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Thank you so much, Boom, slam, punch.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Slap, inside shot.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Divorce, so many themes.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Homophobia, so many themes.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Pittsburgh, mm hmm. I was really excited that this movie
took place. I was like, I was like, where is
Kaitlyn going to connect with this movie. There's got to
be somewhere. I was like, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
It's the Pennsylvania Connection.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
So okay, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
Jamie Laftus.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show
where we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point to
initiate much larger, much grander conversations.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
It's true, and the Bechdel Test, of course, is a
media metric created by Alice and Bechdel as a joke
as a goof back in the eighties in her comic
Likes to watch out for. It started as just a
one off joke, but has since become a way to
talk about how and if women are represented in movies

(01:26):
and people of marginalized genders in general. A lot of
versions of the test. The version of the test that
we observe to start our conversation is the test requires
that there be two characters with names of a marginalized
gender talking about something other than men for two lines
of dialogue.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Or more or more, preferably more often but not. It
doesn't happen that way usually.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
But there's so much to talk about. It's not the
b L and end all of any movie. And today
it's it comes but twice a year, a birthday episode
where Caitlin and I really get to go absolutely hogwild
on on our on our choice of movie, on our
choice of guest. It's a fun time. And this has

(02:15):
been an episode that has been it's not an episode
that's ever been. It's been requested by one person. It's
no coincidence of that person's sorry guest. Yeah, but I
would say it's been well, Dad, what do you how
long have you been asking me about This's been a
couple of years.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Well, how long have you had the show seven years now,
it hasn't been seven years.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
I would say at least four years.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Well, we've talked about this, I mean in your other
podcast life when you did the Kathy podcast. You know,
it was a it was a thought that I had that,
you know, there was this comic. It wasn't for everybody,
but the more I thought about it, it was kind
of it was unique first time. You know, it was
like there really weren't in themic strips. You know, women

(03:02):
were moms or girlfriends, maybe teachers, but there was never
like a single business woman. So I tossed that to you,
and I guess in the case of slap Shot, you know,
I sort of was thinking of a Kathy thing too,
because you know, there are interesting to me, you know,
representations of women and their stories, and that's that's what

(03:25):
your cast is all about, you and Caitlin. So I thought, well,
you know, throw it out there and see what they think.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
And here we are, and sure enough, we're doing it.
We're covering a slap shot and the guest you just
heard Alan Kitlyn usually introduced the guests, but they have
generously offered me the opportunity.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's your time to shine.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Jamie, our guest today, is a former hockey writer, current
hockey fan. Has been covering hockey since the eighties, been
playing hockey since the seventies when the movie comes out.
He's also a proud father to two wonderful children, lifelong

(04:08):
Brocton residents, a Brockton legend. It's Mike loftis welcome. Welcome
to the cast.

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Dad, Welcome, Jamie. Good to see you, and good to
see you too, Caitlyn.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Thank you for listeners. I'm currently in Brockton at my
dad's house and he's he's downstairs with my equipment. I'm
upstairs with my phone. We've had a very professional setup.
It's like we're not even. But he did drive me
to Dunkin Donuts right before the episode, so that.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
On you gotta have your birthday dunks.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, it's true, it's yeah, it's I'm feeling the birthday love.
I'm feeling thrilled about the birthday. So yeah, the my
memory of I don't remember when you first brought this
movie up to me for the Bechdel cast, but you
every time you're like, I think it would just be
like if I happen to be talking about work you'd
be like, you know, flap Shot is written by a

(05:03):
woman that was just kind of the pitch and it
stuck with me.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
And you pitched it to me Jamie multiple times as well,
and I was it was yeah later, which.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
To be fair, it's not a personal attack. That's how
most of our episodes end up happening. We think it
over for a good two years, and then eventually we
cover it. I feel like that has become kind of
our habit.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Anyways, Yeah, we're covering slap Shot. It is a nineteen
seventy seven film is directed by George roy Hill. It
is written by Nancy Dawd. It stars Paul Newman amongst
Caitlin Is Oh I learned this. I learned this as
wearying dad. Caitlyn's horny for Paul Newman, and he's very handsome.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Oh my gosh. It's kind of the only thing I'm
going to be able to contribute to this episode. My
third for Paul Newman.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, unbelievable, focused on men that night, having discourse.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I'm just gonna be like Paul Newman, oh woo ga.
I don't like his character, but I very much enjoy
looking at his face.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Well, I guess, let's let's get into it. I guess, dad, Uh, well, actually,
let's get ours out of the way kill it. What's
your history with the movie slap Shot?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
I only know about this movie because of the various
times Jamie, you've said, my dad wants to come on
the podcast and cover slap Shot, and okay, that is
the reason I know this movie exists, Jamie, what's yours?

Speaker 1 (06:41):
I know this movie exists because my dad has told
me about it. But I also have we've had Hansen
brother glasses at the house for I remember where we
have like I think they're on the table next to you, Dad,
but they're like the Hanson brother like taped glasses. It's
it is like, that's the only part of this movie
that I really knew about. I had not watched it

(07:02):
until the other day to prepare for this episode, because
you know, I criminally have never been very into hockey,
and so it was not a movie that really appealed
to me. But I knew the Hanson brothers because they
are so ingratiated into hockey iconography that we have like

(07:23):
glasses that were given out at a game with the
tape in the middle and the hands and Brothers specifically
are very iconic in hockey culture. I think this movie
is too, but like more, I think the Handsome Brothers
are kind of the most enduring. Would is that right?

Speaker 4 (07:37):
Would you say? Absolutely? I mean it's you know, you
brought us some other hockey movies last night. There aren't
a lot of them. Yeah, you know, there are a
lot of baseball and football and basketball movies. Hockey. I
think hockey fans of a certain age says it's slap shot,
and then you know, maybe another generation would be the
Mighty Ducks, and.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
You know, I think we'd say more so than Mighty Ducks,
and then current current generation. I don't know if they
have a hockey movie.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
I could tell you of a hockey movie, but the
good It's goon Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Oh, I have heard of this one, Sean William Scott.
Isn't it?

Speaker 4 (08:15):
If I'm not mistaken, I don't know actors that well,
but I think it is. I actually I know the
Gentleman that that film was based on. Okay, it's a
true story about a guy who and and the and
the movie does not really tell the story of the
actual person, but classic that was okay, he knew he

(08:37):
knew that was gonna happen, and he was. He was
alright with it.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
You know, I hope they paid him well for the book.

Speaker 4 (08:42):
Rights that might have happened.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
But yeah, Slapshot has not been a huge part of
my life. But hockey certainly has grew up around hockey culture,
hockey ideas, hockey labor. Yeah, I have I like. I
like hockey, I think as much as someone who doesn't
follow it can.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
I mean, missus Zamboni.

Speaker 5 (09:07):
I have a Zamboni tattoo, and I didn't notice until
the end of the first movie the movie Slap Shot
zero Zamboni's Zamboni visibility at an all time low.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
My favorite ice sports movie, as you know, is Ititania.
I love Itania. Not a single Zamboni in that one either,
What the hell?

Speaker 4 (09:26):
I know, it's pretty and you know it's interesting to
me that, you know, when I sat down to watch
it again the other night, like and watch it in
a different way, I didn't realize it was it's a
two hour movie.

Speaker 6 (09:38):
Yes it sure, it feels pretty long, so so you know,
there was plenty of time in there for you know, Zamboni,
tomfoolery and yet rueling Zamboni's.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Well even just a you know, I mean, I don't
know if we I don't know if this is the
part where we even bring in little things about the film,
but you know, little things, little things that the you know,
the team does to really really continue to whip people
in a frenzy, right like you know, parking an ambulance
outside of a game, you know, before it starts, you
couldn't have had somebody dress up crazy and just like

(10:13):
you know, drive the zamboni.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Naked person driving a Zamboni, Well, it's a perfect it's
a perfect runch comedy idea.

Speaker 4 (10:21):
Okay, never mind, but you know, an oversight. I agree,
Jane good point.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, I felt strongly about that. I feel like Zamboni's
are rarely included, to the point where I wonder if
the company simply objects to it because it just seems
like such an easy win. But they're a very kind
of flatigious Italian family, the Zamboni family, so I've heard
when I've tried to contact them. Sure, So I like hockey.
I'd never seen slapshot all the way through, and I

(10:49):
watched it twice to repair, once with my dad, once
without and I have I mean it's so weird because
I feel like the reason that I didn't like this
movie as much as I was hoping to just has
mostly to do with the fact that I historically don't
love like super raunchy comedies, like they just have never
really appealed to me. But the more that I learned

(11:12):
about the production of this movie, there's a lot of
stuff to talk about. Certainly, a lot of it doesn't
age well. We were getting dinner with my aunt's last
night and my Annie Kate, my dad's sister. We've all
been hockey pilled over the years, and she's like, oh, yeah,
I've seen Slap Shot. It's kind of hard to watch
now because it's long and a lot of it ages

(11:32):
really badly. And I was like, all right, so we're
all in the same page here. But it is interesting.
We don't cover a lot of movies from the seventies,
and I think for a movie that a lot of
it ages not well, there were more women in the
story than I was expecting. I think more women than
your average sports movie in general, I would agree, so

(11:53):
lots to talk about. Yeah, Dad, what's your history with
the movie Slap Shot? Do you remember when you first saw.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
Well that it actually came out the year I graduated
high school, nice nineteen seventy seven, which is when I
was wrapping up my my super average career as a player.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Okay, give us the rundown. What position did you play? Generally?

Speaker 4 (12:17):
I was a defense defenseman. One goal career statistics one goal,
one assist, multiple penalty minutes. Knee injuries, yes, one knee surgery,
one broken nose. Went from there to I coached youth
hockey with a buddy of mine for a couple of years.
That was fun.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
When I was in college, I started officiating games as
a way to make a few bucks, and then that
all dried up and I went into the the you know,
there was no future in any of that for me,
but I still just kind of couldn't quit the game
and love newspapers, loved the sports section, sports guy in

(13:00):
there I am, and like the you know, kind of
the teeth of the late seventies or when there's a
lot of people going into journalism because of like all
the president's men, and you know, everybody wants to be
a journalist.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Interesting movies are so influential that didn't.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Really feel like there was an uptick after all the presidents,
and that makes sense to me.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
Oh yeah, definitely, because a person like me, who would
show up and say, yeah, I want to be a
sports writer, was like, what that doesn't count? What's wrong
with you? Yeah? So that's how that's kind of where
it comes from. And the interesting little side story is
the reason that I even played in the first place
was that when she was young, before she got married,
my mom was a huge hockey fan. She loved the Bruins.

(13:42):
I think she really liked the fights a lot. But
you know, she got married, she had three kids in
four years, and at around that time, the Bruins in Boston,
who had been terrible for a while, all of a
sudden they got very good. They had a great team
and a lot of personality, a lot of fun, and
she couldn't contain herself. She just she signed me up,

(14:04):
even though I told her I didn't want to play
so and you know, by the end of my first
season playing it was kind of all I wanted to do.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
So there's my is that dot Now. I don't think
my mom watched Slapshot with me, but but you know,
myself obviously and my my hockey friends. I mean you know,
certain aspects of that movie just from having played on
a team and everything like that just kind of, you know,
cracked us up.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
And then just just for listener context, how long did
you work in sports journalism covering.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
Hockey, specifically covering hockey. I would say I started like
in nineteen eighty nine. Halfway through that season, I became
like the full time you know, Bruins beat writer at
my paper. And I held that job through the twenty
nineteen twenty season, the last the bubble season, the pandemic season.

(15:04):
So it was a good It was like thirty something
years and I and also, you know, as my newspaper changed,
the industry changed, and I had to you know, I
always said the Bruins, but I found lots and lots
of other hockey stories to do. You know, here in
New England and the Boston area is so lots of
college stories, lots of stories about minor league players, you know,

(15:26):
draft picks we had, you know, coaches. And one of
the more interesting things was over my time was the
growth of like the women's hockey game, which I'm not
even sure it really existed when I started.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
You know, I just realized I know nothing about it,
nor did I even realize there was a women's hockey league.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
It's cool. I mean that that, you know, obviously, you
know a million times worry about it than me. But
when when I went to Toronto a couple of months
ago to do a show with your rock about I
went to the Hockey Hall of Fame, and it's like
this big, cool, sprawling museum that has exhibits on women's
hockey and on non white hockey leagues, and just like

(16:12):
all all of this cool. I don't know, you know,
it is definitely a predominantly white male sport, as our
most North American sports, but women's women's hockey leagues are
really really interesting, and I feel like there is I'm
kind of surprised that there isn't a movie about maybe.
I mean, listeners feel free to let us know if

(16:33):
there is one and we just don't know about it.
But I don't think I've ever seen like movie or
show explicitly about women's hockey, which feels weird. I feel
like there's movies about at least one movie about women's
sports in most major sports.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, I mean, but it was, I mean, it's around here,
and I guess, you know, in other places where hockey
is a thing. You know, the youth in high school
and college level. You know, women's hockey is a thing.
You know almost every almost everybody has a team now
in college. And the interesting thing to me was it
has struggled to really get off the ground and stay established.

(17:11):
But I will say, for like the last five or
six years has been a women's professional hockey league. You know,
where women you know, it's professional, they got paid to play.
As the twenty nineteen twenty twenty season was winding down
before everything shut down because of COVID, I always I
think about, how interesting is that the last athlete that

(17:35):
I interviewed face to face one on one was a
women's professional hockey player. Cool, which I thought was you know,
I didn't know it was going to be the last one.
I thought I would be going to work the next day.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
But or you would have talked to a man.

Speaker 4 (17:49):
No, I was there specifically to do that.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Okay, all right, you're killing it, everything's going great. No, No,
that's that's really I am obviously a fan of my dad,
but I think it's I think I do think it's
cool that you've covered so many local stories that no
one that that are not ordinarily covered especially with I mean,
like I mean, Caitlin, what you just said is kind

(18:14):
of proof of that. It's just like women's Like women's
hockey is absolutely a thing, but it's not covered in
any sort of broad way, right.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Like I've never seen a women's talkie game on TV.
Not that I'm like actively seeking out sports games.

Speaker 4 (18:29):
You you would more likely find it during like the Olympics.
It's a it's a yeah. And an issue is that
the United States is great at it, Canada is great
at it, but there's you know, they need more international competition.
It is you know, it's not like there's generations of Swedish, Norwegian,

(18:51):
you know, European players.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
I was going to say, like Sweden, what are you doing? Hello?

Speaker 4 (18:55):
I know, right, But I mean it'll come. It will come.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
It will when I write my awesome women's hockey movie.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
So let's take a quick break and then we will
come back for the recap.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
First periods over, you could say.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
And we're back and now it's the second period. How
many are there periods? Okay? There three?

Speaker 1 (19:23):
So this kind of works perfect. Wow.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, So the thing that I thought was halftime, it's
probably not actually halftime there's like two breaks.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, there's the middle. Yeah, there's not really any like
manner of halftime show for hockey. There's like, uh, well
to guess my ms. The Zamboni's are kind of how
you know, like, yeah, they come out twice and they
resurface the ice because that's their kind of one purpose.
And and sometimes uh, you know, kids and also local

(19:54):
celebs will come out on the zamboni and sometimes it's
me Staple Center in January twenty twenty, it was me
one time. I think we should I think we should
definitely post a picture of it to our Instagram. Actually absolutely,
I think it's pretty importantly do. But there's well there's
also I feel like there's because there's no cheerleading element

(20:19):
to hockey because it's on ice. But they have like
what do they call like it's a group of it's
now a gender inclusive group, but it's like a they
kind of assist the zamboni's. It's not really as best
of as cheerleading or dancing. It's really just like excited sweeping.

Speaker 4 (20:39):
And there are there are some teams that will employ
people to you know, stand in the stairways and everything
and cheer.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Okay, I know that job. It seems like a fun job.
I wonder if I feel like traditionally those jobs are
really low paid. I wonder what the deal is in hockey.
But I was like, you know, I would sweep, I
would sweep in shorts. Why not?

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Anyways, let's what happens in the movie slap Shot let us.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
I would be delighted to tell you. Okay, we meet
a minor league, right, minor league hockey team called the
Chiefs from the fictional town of Charlestown, Pennsylvania, not to
be confused with Charlestown, Massachusetts, which is where the movie

(21:24):
The Town famously takes place.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
That is kind of the famous town. Wow.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Okay, so the most seasoned player and also the coach.
I did not know that the coach of a hockey
team was also a player. Fascinating to me.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Can that happen in minor leagues?

Speaker 4 (21:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Is that a thing?

Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yeah? It has been player coaches. The lower you go,
you never know what you're going to see.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
So the coach slash a player is Reggie Dunlop played
by Paul Newman Albahabba. And then we meet some other
players like Ned Bryden. There's a goalie named Denny who
is French and everyone makes fun of him for English

(22:11):
not being his first language.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
I really like his opening monologue that ends like with
him just poetically describing the penalty box and then you
get free. I was like, whoa, Yes, you feel shame
and then you get free, and you're like.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Whoa, Denny. We also meet Joe McGrath, who is the
team's manager because he's not the coach, so he's the manager.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
Is that right, Mike, Yeah, general managers what you'd call, okay.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Got it. He has the team do fashion shows to
promote the games because people aren't coming out as much
to the games anymore because the Chiefs kind of suck
and they've been losing a lot. Also, a local mill
is going to be closing soon in town and it's
going to potentially mean that Charlestown will sort of dry

(23:05):
up and then the team might have to fold, so
that's looming over everybody. We also meet the Hansen brothers.
They have just been signed over to the Chiefs. They're
characterized as being a bunch of dipshits who bring their
toys with them even though they're adults.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
They're yeah, they're young adults. I don't know. It's like
it didn't shock me that, like when they're like eighteen,
twenty and twenty.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
One something like that, and then.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
You're just like, yeah, I guess they would bring.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Their race cars.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
I don't know. I was about to say they're not
hurting anybody, but that's actually kind of their whole fanger.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
But they do kind of they are super violent on
the ice, and then they would later go on to
form a boy band and sing bop.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
I know.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
It's so confusing, Like I got that is that's a
good generation gap. It's like, who are the hands and
brothers to you? Right, because I'm going to mbop every time.
I didn't know that boomers had their own handsome brothers.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's true. Okay. So we also meet a few of
the players' wives. They're his wives, such as Bryden's wife Lily.
She hates this town. She seems to just kind of
generally hate her life and possibly her husband. We also

(24:28):
meet Francine, who is Reggie's ex wife who he is
trying to win.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Back to know of it my hero, my favorite character,
Francine Rocks.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
So the team they wonder who owns the team because
they don't know, and Reggie is like, I don't know,
it's just a corporation. And then they're general manager. That
guy Joe reveals that this is the Chief's last season,
and the players are worried that they won't be signed

(25:01):
to another team. Some of them feel like they're getting
too old to like be a valuable asset to another team.
Reggie thinks that they might get sold and get transferred
to a new city. He's thinking somewhere in Florida.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Reggie is such a mess. It is no secret to
anyone on this call. And I don't care for the
character of Reggie. Not a fan of his. I think
it's so like we'll talk about him more obviously later
in the episode, but I really like especially the second
time when I was watching it, it was because he's

(25:39):
such a piece of shit to everyone, and it's it's
really interesting to me that like his only redeeming moments
happen privately, Like he's never publicly nice to anybody privately
will he will say nice things about people behind their back,
never to their face, And it just like it made me,
I don't know, it was an interesting character. I mean,

(26:01):
it's tricky because it's like, I don't think the movie
is fully I don't know. I mean I I think
he's like he's a piece of shit and also kind
of tragic to me in a way because he just
seems like someone who needs a friend so badly, but
like can't stop getting in his own way enough to
ever like have a friend. Like there's so many characters

(26:24):
in this movie that he almost forges a friendship with
but then turns on them or is a piece of
shit to them, or like feels insecure for a second
and says something cruel to them, and you're just like
this person is so like it's it's a mess. He's
an asshole. But it's also like it's sad, Like it's
like this guy just needs to get out of his
own way and make a make a friend, but but

(26:47):
but he can't do it, and it's it's very frustrating
to watch him sabotage himself over and over truly.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, So he's insecure about the future, sure of the team,
and he goes to this sports writer Dickie Done aka
basically Mike loftis, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Dad, did you feel represented? Dicky Done?

Speaker 4 (27:12):
I do like that he's often well just trying to
catch the spirit of the thing.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
You know, he says this a lot.

Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yes, yes, I mean you know whatever Reggie Dunlop plays him.
You know obviously, you know kind of plants this story
about here we're getting sold when you know that never
was going to happen. Right, So Dickie's Dickie's failure to
like maybe follow up on that.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
He's not doing very good journalism, yes, because he's doing
no research.

Speaker 4 (27:41):
But you know he's probably selling some papers, and you know,
he just it's funny how he just sort of fell
right into right, right into Reggis. Reggis trapped there.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, he is charming, he is like charismatics. So people are.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Like, he is hot, so you should probably.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Be so hot. So everyone listens to him.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
And that's a great line too where there you know, Paul,
you know Reggie is reading the story. Hey, Dickie Dunn
wrote it. You know it's true, right.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Also, Uh, it's it's stereotypes. Uh, sports writers as bad parents.
His daughter run out and her brother was bullying her,
and he's like, all right, resolve it among yourselves. Talking
to Paul Newman.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
I'm doing business, right, now I'm mister business, bad representation.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
I think there might have been a drink or two
there too.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Oh yeah, yeah, he said, he said, go away kids,
and then he starts drinking again. There's a lot of
drinking in this movie, so much drinking. Yeah, Dad, you'll
have to explain the seventies.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
So Dickie Dunn is like, that's ridiculous. No one's gonna
buy a fifth place team, and Reggie is like, well
that's about to change. Mean, while Reggie is having an
affair with an opponent's wife, his wife Suzanne, and she
tells Reggie that she's been sleeping with other women recently,

(29:13):
which Reggie uses when he plays his opponent the following week.
This guy named Hanrahan Han Rahn. That will we'll talk
about that.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
That'll be a whole thing, because that's it's like, that's
something that this movie is so constantly infuriating, mostly because
of regg Yeah, where you're like, oh wow, I would
guess that that wouldn't be something that would be like
commonly discussed in a popular movie in the seventies, and
then in the next scene you're like, well, what was
the point, Like, if you're just going to do that.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
What was the point exactly? Yeah. So Hanrahan is the
goalie for the other team, and Reggie is taunting him
and saying, you know your wife is a lesbian. But
he's using a lot of slurs and it makes hanrah
Han so mad and distracted that he gets scored on

(30:07):
a bunch and the Chiefs win, also partly because they
get very violent and start beating the shit out of
the other team.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Which is sort of like becoming their new Emma Owing card.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, yeah, yes. Meanwhile, we have a scene with Lily.
She's still having a really hard time. It seems like
Brandon is cheating on her, and then Reggie tries to
comfort her, but in a very sleazy way where he's like,
come over, I'll give you a foot rub.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
He's so frustrating. I'm just like, she that's whatever I mean.
I guess the choice is consistent with Reggie's character, but
I'm just like, ah, these two characters, they both need
a friend. Why can't they be friends to each other?
But it's because Reggie can't because he's a creep. Yeah,
because he can't not be a creep.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
But he's not even the most creepy guy on the
team because that's a guy named Morris's.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Oh he's a disaster. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Anyway, so the team sees this story in the paper
that Dicky Dunn had printed about how the Chiefs are
going to get bought and transferred to Florida, which they're
very excited about. And so, with the team morale higher
than ever, the Chiefs start winning a bunch, although again

(31:25):
they're playing way rougher than normal. There's lots of punching
and bloody faces and stuff. Although Brayden is opposed to
playing dirty, he thinks it's cheap and not the right
way to win, which.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
He'll sort of like built into He's like, I went
to college. I'm not none of this nonsense. I went
to college.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, I'm still a piece of shit who's cheating on
my wife, but I have morals.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
But I went to college.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
But Reggie is very pro all of this hockey violence,
and he starts putting the Hansen brothers in the game,
whose entire strategy is just to punch the ship out
of their opponents.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
I kind of love the hands, Like, it's kind of
hard not to love the Hansen brothers.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
They're so goofy, they're extremely goofy.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Wait, my dad's got some some a real real sleigh
of a of a context corner for them. But oh okay,
I love I love the hands and brothers. They're fun.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
I yeah, there's awesome anyway. So, uh, the team continues
to speculate who the owner is. Meanwhile, this thing is
happening where Reggie just like keeps lying about the team
getting bought and sold to keep the morale up. And

(32:52):
also maybe he's just like deluding himself because he knows
that he's about to reach a point where he's probably
gonna have to tire and he's so insecure and he
can't deal with it.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's so I read this incredible essay about how Reggie
is a metaphor for the men of Pittsburgh in the seventies. Wow,
and I'm just like, I'm excited to talk about it later.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Okay, Okay. So then Reggie sees Francene with another guy
and he's kind of like following her around and calling
different places that he knows that she frequents to try
to like see who she's been there with. Very stalker behavior.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah he's doing I mean he does the same thing
to Lily. He like jumps in her car at one point,
like he's just he has no no issue really inserting
being around.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah yeah, And he bumps into her at some point,
and franccene tells Reggie that she's moving to Long Island,
which I'm like, yes, please get away from him. Then
there's an upcoming game against Syracuse, so Reggie goes on
the radio for an interview and he says that he's

(34:08):
putting a bounty on I don't know if it's that
team's coach or just kind of like one of their
star players, this guy Tim McCracken. And he's like, I'm
paying one hundred dollars of my own money for someone
to kill him.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
It's such a love bounty. It's kind of fun, right.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
And then there's this player who has given himself the
nickname Killer and he's like, I'll do it. I'll kill
Tim McCracken. Anyway, Lily shows up at Reggie's place with
her huge Saint Bernard dog. She seems to have left
Bryden and she has a new lease online.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
He doesn't know it yet.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
He doesn't know it yet, let's see. Then Reggie takes
Lily to Francine's hair salon and she gets a bit
of a makeo.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
I have some I have complicated thoughts about that scene
because I feel like that scene's heart is in the
right place, but it's kind of broadly done. But I'm
excited to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Then Reggie finally figures out who the
owner of the Chiefs is and he goes to see
him just kidding. It's a woman jeamed whit Anita McCambridge,
and he wants to know how the sale of the
team is going, but she tells him that she plans

(35:31):
to fold the team and take a tax loss rather
than sell it because she won't make enough of a
profit if she sells the team.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's like every single decision, like every streamer is making
right now, they're like, no, actually, we're deleting your entire
life and career because it suits me today.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Fuck you.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yikes. And so this news infuriates Reggie and he brutally
insults her son and then storms out.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Classic Reggie, He's like, well, I'm feeling a little insecure
and angry. Let me insult someone who's not here in
the cruelest way I can possibly think of, truly, kind
of his whole thing.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Then Reggie comes clean to his team. He admits that
there's no deal for them to be bought and moved
to Florida. That Ned was right all along. They shouldn't
be resorting to all of this violence as a way
to win games. And this is Reggie's last game and
he's gonna play it straight and try to win that

(36:35):
championship honestly and legitimately. But this is when they're playing
Syracuse and that team is ready for a bloodbath. So
the game starts and the Syracuse team are fighting, but
the Chiefs aren't fighting back, and they're losing. And then
it's not halftime, it's either after the first or second period.

(37:00):
They're like in the locker room and their general manager
Joe is like, hey, there's a bunch of NHL scouts
in the crowd, so you have to put on a
good show for them, and Reggie's like, okay, forget everything
I said. We're gonna play dirty, and then we just
like cut to everyone punching each other. Francine and Lily

(37:24):
show up to the game, and Braiden sees his wife
and he's like, wow.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
This part is where this is where like the whole
Lily story falls apart from me where I'm like, what
happened here? So confused about what happens with Lily's character.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, I don't know sure, and I also don't know
exactly what prompts this. But Braiden goes out on the
ice while everyone well everyone's just punching each other and
not playing hockey even a little bit, and Braiden starts
doing a strip tease, and everyone in the crowd and

(38:02):
all the players are like, te wow, And for.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Some reason this solves all of the problems in his marriage.
You're just like, it's very cinematic, but you're just like,
it doesn't make sense, but it's a very movie behavior.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, and he does the strip tease and it somehow
wins the game. I don't know if the other team forfits.
I don't know what happens.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
I could tell you. So as as Ned is doing
his strip tease, one of the players, one of the
it might be Tim McCracken, is furious and he's like,
you know, during the middle of this bloodbath, he starts
to yell at the official like that's disgusting. Make him stop,
And the officials like, what do you mean, it's disgusting

(38:49):
look at this, and they end up with an argument e.
McCracken or the you know, the opponent hits the official.
He which is, no matter how low the miners or whatever,
you know, you can't hit an official. And he hit him,
and the officials says that's it. The game's over. You forfeit.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
You know, got it? Okay, okay, nice, okay. It reminds
me of an air bud when they're like, there's nothing
in the rule book that says a dog can't play basketball.
It's like, there's nothing in the rule book that says
a player can't come out and strip to win the game.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Right, you can maybe get a penalty for it.

Speaker 4 (39:26):
Play was stopped at the time, you know, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
It's true, so he's basically just doing it. It's like
that that could have been the the ice sweepers, it
could have been, could have been anything, and he happened
to do that. I don't, yeah, I have so the
way that this movie it's so bizarre. We were talking
about it when we were watching it a couple of
nights ago, where it's like this movie in the last

(39:50):
half of it, like I'd be on board, and then
it would lose me for ten minutes, and I'd be
back for a couple of minutes, and then it would
lose me for ten minutes, and then I kind of
liked the ending, and it was like I didn't see
I don't like, well, whatever, we're at the end, basically, yeah,
but like it lost me during this whole game, because
you're like, why does ned stripping on ice solve the

(40:11):
issue of infidelity and them hating it each other? And
then it seems like well whatever, Like I'm I didn't
dislike the scene between Lily and Francine, even though it
was like whatever channeled into the idea and to a makeover.
I think you can make the argument that it was
like she was getting a makeover to feel better about herself.

(40:34):
It didn't seem like it was overtly for her husband
or for anyone except for herself.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Because she had already left him by that point.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, it seemed like she was doing it to feel
more confident about herself. And I don't have an issue
with that, but it just seems like it's like implied
that something happens between Lily and Francine off screen that
leads because I'm like, I don't even know why they
show up at that hockey game. It's confusing to me
because it seems like Lily or Francines like getting really

(41:03):
gassed up to like get out into the world and
start her life. Like whether that's dating or moving or whatever,
it is kind of unclear. But then it's like, the
next time we see them, they're at the hockey game.
You're like, when did you guys decide to go to
the hockey game? Why? It seems like the opposite of
what Lily was trying to do.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Right, they should have gone out to dinner.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
They should have gone out to a singles bar.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Right, and then they could have started a book club together.
You know, I don't know anyway, So we cut to
a parade. The team I think has disbanded, but the
players seems like they're getting contracts to go play on
other teams. Reggie is going to go play in Minneapolis.

(41:45):
He tries to get Francine to come with him, but
she's like pass. But Lily and Braden do get back
together in an infuriating moment, and then.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Everyone I've never been so it on different characters endings
where it's like I'm thrilled for Francine and I'm completely
confused by Lily.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, but anyway, but everyone's celebrating at the parade, and
that's how the movie ends. So let's take another break.
Second period period is over. Is there a big Is
there a big buzzer in hockey to like signify the
end of a period?

Speaker 4 (42:24):
Well, I think it's a siren, you know.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Oh okay, so a wuga will be right back. We're back,
and it's time for the third period.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
And the third period can go on for a while.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Mm hmm. There's no time limit.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
If things are tight, you know. Sometimes sometimes it just
keeps going.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Sometimes we go into overtime.

Speaker 4 (42:50):
Overtime, yes on the Bechdel cast.

Speaker 5 (42:52):
Yes, oh that's exactly Okay, I wonder that's that's when
we do the our scoring.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
That's oh yeah, that's like the penalty shootout kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah. So, Dad, I before we get into the full analysis,
I'm curious, do you feel that the sport of hockey
is like does this feel authentic to because you, I
mean like we're reporting like on the road with teams
and reporting from locker rooms for decades. Does this movie

(43:23):
feel close for the era? Does it feel overblown and moviefied, like,
how does it square with your experience in this arena?

Speaker 4 (43:33):
You know, hey, you know, it's a good question. I
mean I think, you know, when I watched that movie,
everything in it from the hockey standpoint is just an exaggeration.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
You know.

Speaker 4 (43:47):
It's like, you know, yes there is locker room talk,
but some of the extent that these guys, you know, no,
I don't think. I mean, I never heard the violence
in games. You know. Yes, it's a very very physical game,
and I would say back in that era that was
more of a factor, that was more of a strategy

(44:07):
than it is now. And also to the NHL, it's
like any major sport, people follow him. There's like the
top level and then there are different tiers in hockey.
The lower that you go, you know, you're probably not
going to make it, you know, you might you know,
move up another level or two. So the crazier things,

(44:29):
I guess, you know, would tend to happen, you know,
in the lower minors, smaller towns, you know, smaller franchises,
things like that. I mean, and that's you know, that's
kind of where the movie came from.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Now.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
Nancy Dowd's brother.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Ned Nancy the writer.

Speaker 4 (44:47):
Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, So her brother played college hockey
in Maine, and then he played two years a low
minor professional hockey league, and he would he you know,
he would tell his sisters worries about the you know,
the things that happened, and thus the movie. You know,
so a lot of it. There's a lot of things

(45:08):
that are based on things that actually did happen. And
I think that, you know, for film purposes and everything,
you know, it's it's amplified and exaggerated.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
That's something I mean, I guess that's like a place
that I would be down to start, is just talking
a little bit about the behind the scenes process of
this movie, because I didn't I know that. I mean,
the one fact I knew about this movie other than
it's where the hands and brother's glasses comes from, is
what my dad told me five thousand times, which is
that a woman wrote the movie. It was the fact

(45:38):
that I knew, but I didn't know I actually really liked.
I don't know, it's like it I was like, oh,
I kind of do stuff like that sometimes. Where Nancy down, Yeah,
like she heard that her brother was involved in this
what was the name of the team that the Chiefs
are based.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
On, the Johnstown Jets, okay in Pennsylvania, So that was
a team.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Her brother was on. He called basically with the premise
to slap shot that this you know team was not
going to be around for much longer, and so she
followed them around for a month, and she like shadowed
them and did basically like Gonzo's style, following this minor
league team around. And so a lot of what she
saw went directly into the movie in the script, which

(46:22):
I think you can argue works for and against it
because it's like if she's presenting in this the late
seventies that authentically a lot of it doesn't age well
because it was, you know, almost fifty years ago, but
it does seem like that was sort of her goal
in writing it and what she was trying to present.
And so I went back to the way that this

(46:43):
movie was originally covered because it was like a hit.
It was a box office success, people liked it, Paul
Newman was in it, and it was also like I
thought it was interesting that it was drawn attention to
when the movie came out, that these were like, quote,
I'm just trying to think if there's like a contemporary
example of it where they were like quote unquote like
respectable filmmakers making this raunchy comedy. Because the director of

(47:08):
this movie, George roy Hill, like he directed Butch Cassidy,
he'd done all of these like, you know, really prestige sensitive, thoughtful,
prestigie movies, and then later in his career makes this
super super raunchy comedy. And then you have Nancy Dowd
who is from Framingham, Massachusetts, representing Massachusetts, but grew up

(47:30):
you know, like a pretty like upper crusty Massachusetts life.
She went to Smith College like she was like a
no one and this was like her first success. She
went on after this. Two years after this, she won
an oscar for a movie called Coming Home about Did
you see that? Dad?

Speaker 4 (47:49):
I did? Did you like it?

Speaker 1 (47:52):
It was?

Speaker 4 (47:52):
It was a little challenging to believe. It's very serious.
It was like a it was kind of like a
Vietnam War movie real and it's you know John Floyd
so well it.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Works against it. Yeah, it's no national treasure. But no,
I mean it's.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
Like speaking.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
But yeah, because John Boyd is truly evil. Yeah, but
but it felt like these prestigiee stars, serious writers and
directors making this really raunchy, goofy comedy. But it was
also like my dad. The news talked a lot about
how like a woman wrote the movie in a different

(48:30):
context at I'm not criticizing this, but I just like
most of the coverage of Nancy Dawd at this time
was like, it's the raunchiest comedy of the year and
a Woa wa will woman wrote it, and like, which
I think that we still see stuff like that, and
it's still like the majority of Raanji comedies that come

(48:52):
out are not written by I don't think that there's
really parody. I mean, there's not parody in film in general,
but I think, especially in this genre, it still feels
super male driven. I feel like joy Ride is the
only exception I can think of this year. But I
read some of the coverage because I was like, well,

(49:13):
how did Nancy Dowd kind of feeld this? And I
thought she was cool. I thought she was really funny
and really cool. She says this in a New York
Times article from nineteen seventy seven. This is how it's
set up. Set up obscenity hockey. A woman missed out
has been meeting so many people lately who can't believe

(49:34):
that she actually wrote this screenplay, that she is beginning
to lose her patience, and she says, quote, the world
has a weird view of women. People seem to believe
that we have to write about divorce or suicide or
children so called women's topics. But we've been around women
aren't sequestered anymore, and kind of just goes on to

(49:55):
talk about how it reminds me of like how you
still see a lot of women writers being like, well,
wish this wasn't the story. Shut up, like watch the
movie and like it or don't. But this movie was,
even in its time, considered to be pretty sexist. I
think Paul Newman called it honestly sexist, which I think
is an interesting way to come about it. And I

(50:17):
think I think what he's trying to say, I don't know,
let me know if either of you feel differently, is
that it feels like it's more speaking to like how
Nancy Dowd was not transcribing dialogue but like just sort
of saying authentically, how guys she was hanging out with
we're talking and not sanitizing what they were saying. So
it's like she was hanging out with sexist guys. The

(50:37):
movie is honestly sexist because she's not like, you know,
sugarmaking more appealing.

Speaker 4 (50:43):
Yeah. Yeah, and you know I would say too that,
you know, when it came out, you know, and I
was whatever, eighteen years old. I don't recall knowing that
a woman wrote it at the time.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
I mean, we just you know, you should have been
reading the New York Times, well they couldn't up about.

Speaker 4 (51:00):
It, reading the Brockton Enterprise, and hoping to one day
work for the Patriot Ledger. But we were just excited
because there was a movie about hockey, you know, and
it was our thing. Really didn't take it that much farther,
you know. I was surprised when I like looked a
little bit more into it later on, you know, just

(51:20):
finding out like little little things about people who were
in the movie. You know that that got me to look,
you know, behind this, not behind the scenes, but behind
the story, and it was like, you know, the only
thing was like, oh, a woman wrote it. I guess,
you know. My not reaction to that, but like the
way I I might come off that way is like

(51:42):
like if her brother wrote the movie, it'd be like, oh, yeah,
of course, you know, like all that dialogue, this and that,
and it just it just you know, it just wouldn't
have seemed you know, it's so raunchy. Like I'm not
saying like anybody can't be raunchy, but it's like, you
know that one character, you know, Kaitlin you brought up
Marris is like it's gross, you know, it's like it's hideous,

(52:05):
like his h you know, I was saying to Jamie
it was not like I never heard some of those
terms before, but like so so rare, you know, and
you know, I mean I don't know, I guess in
an office, you know, on a team, there's always that
one person that you know takes it a little bit

(52:27):
farther or just like is extreme.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
And as I was as I was watching it the
other night, it was like I didn't catch, you know,
in my earlier viewings of it that a lot of
his teammates are kind of grossed out by him too,
which is like, well, you know, thank God for that,
you know.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Yeah, I mean I think it's well, we'll get into
this too, like I I don't know, it's I think
that it seems like her goal in writing the movie
was like writing obviously like a movie that people would
like that was funny, but was also like authentic to
what she'd experienced, which I don't really have a problem with.

(53:05):
I think it's more like, especially because this movie has
been out for almost, you know, fifty years now, like
it's interesting watching like what parts of this movie are
its legacy because I feel like the parts that I
thought were interesting about the movie are not parts of
the movie that are famous. And also that's like the
writer has no control over what becomes known about their

(53:27):
work or not. But it just I don't know, I
just think it's there was more to this movie than
I thought, but like the nuanced parts of it aren't
what it's known for.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
That Plus like, yeah, she was observing the team, and
who knows, like if she was like transcribing like stuff
that they said and putting it into the script, or
if she was embellishing some of it. But it seems
like for the most part, she's like, well, the way
that Dicky Dunn just tries to capture the spirit of

(53:58):
the thing, I.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Mean guess I guess she's trying to do that.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, Nancy dwod was just trying to capture the spirit
of the thing, and that seems like the spirit was
a lot of like pretty losersh guys who are either
creepy or stockery, or they don't treat women well, et cetera.
That's just the vibe. Those were the vibes she was getting.
So that's what she put on the page. My concern

(54:21):
is that a lot of it is presented uncritically and
or just framed, like Morris saying all of his gross
comments about women's bodies and stuff like that is usually
just framed as a joke, like ha ha, look at
the look at the team creep. Isn't he funny? Aren't
we laughing at him?

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (54:41):
So but again it's like, you know, it's the seventies.
A lot of horrible things we're not presented critically. It
was just this is what's normal, and it's normal. So
that's fine.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah, I don't know, it's movies of this era are
always I feel like in that way. Yeah. Sorry, I
have one more quote from her from this New York
Times piece. The piece goes on she's generally frustrated that
the movie was considered to have strong sexist overtones. This
was something I was talked about in original reviews of
the movie, but she was annoyed with that. She said, quote,

(55:18):
the only thing I thought twice about writing was making
the team's rich, uncaring owner a woman. I worried about
people saying I had made a sexist statement, but I've
seen that woman's attitude so many times. Quote I never
let my children see a hockey game unquote, So it
seems I mean whatever she felt, she felt differently, And
I don't know. It's like, I feel I respect what

(55:40):
she's trying to do, and I also agree with what
you're saying. Galen, is like it just depends on like
how your movie is received and how like I think,
if you're looking for nuance in this movie, you can
find it, but because of the genre, you might not
necessarily be looking for it.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
I don't know, you know, And I think too, like
the you know, the fact that the owner is a woman.
You know, As I was, you know, pitching this idea
to to Jamie, it's like, I don't think this will pass.
I think this is like the worst possible. But she's
she's you know, us the description rich uncaring, it's also
it's a she's a ruthless, bottom line business person, right,

(56:23):
and like any guy would have done that, you know, Yeah,
I mean it the same, you know, But so I
don't I don't know that you saw a lot of
that back then where the I don't know, is it
called girl boss. I don't want to step in anything here.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
You know. Well, yeah, you've seen my you've seen my show.
I mean I think it kind of I think that
it does fall into that thing. I don't know. I
think it's interesting that that was what was on her
mind in seventy seven, because I that was one of
the characters that I didn't think, really I didn't have
an issue with. I had an issue with how Red
treated her versus like how she was portrayed, because it

(56:59):
was like at that point for me, I don't know
how you felt at this point in the movie, Caitlin,
but it was like you had seen different kinds of
women throughout this movie that It's like I feel like
sometimes if there's only one woman in the movie and
she is like a ruthless, cruel person, then it's like, well,
I have no idea how this writer feels about women.

(57:21):
This seems like how they're presenting all women. But because
it's like this one character who comes up late in
the movie, I feel like she represents more of a
class thing than any sort of commentary on gender. And
I was fine with that, Like it's you know, she
and Regen is seen both suck in very very different ways.

(57:43):
And yeah, that worked for me. I thought it was
interesting that that was the thing that stuck with her,
because I think the thing that stuck with me really
was I agree, like there's not any pushback on how
men talk about women in this movie. I agree with
you Dad that like they're they're there were some that
you know, you would, but you would have to kind
of be looking for it of like someone being like Hugh,

(58:06):
because they do like the I think that the character
that is most clearly written in a way that the
movie is conscious of being sexist is I don't know,
do you know what the name of that character is,
Like the one that is who only says.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
Sexist Morris Morris.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah, Yeah, Morris's whole thing is that he views women
as objects. And it's like that's the joke with the character.

Speaker 4 (58:29):
Yeah, and you know, and to go back to go
back to the point that it's a two hour movie.
If you cut Mars out right, it becomes it could
have been.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
An easier movie to digest for sure.

Speaker 4 (58:41):
Yeah, And I mean it doesn't really add anything. I
don't think, you know, it's just it's like it, you
know again, the scene with the owner and Paul Newman.
You know, as I think about it now, that's like
Reg Dunlop, you know, the shoes on the other foot
now because you know, not because she's a woman, but

(59:02):
she's the owner and she's telling them like, yeah, I
could help you and your and your your players, but
you know, but there's nothing in it for me. There's
no money in it for me. And when he says,
you know, we're human beings, you know, that's maybe about
as you know for all the other scenes where like
he's sort of vulnerable and he wants you know, France
scene back. You know, that was a it's a small scene,

(59:26):
but that's probably you know, his most his most human
vulnerable moment maybe, you know.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
And it could have been a much more effective just
scene in general or commentary or whatever it's trying to
do as far as like, yeah, rich people conduct and
them not caring about human lives and only caring about
the bottom line. But then the scene ends with him
going on a homophobic tirade about her young son, and

(59:56):
then it's just like, well, that undercuts everything that could
have been interesting about that scene.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
Right, Caitlin, As you said earlier, the scene where you
know he's with the opponent's wife, you know, I mean,
you know, she explains a very you know, personal thing
to him, and he seems to be listening and have
some you know, respect and everything. But then you know,
right two seconds later, and that sets his character. Everything

(01:00:22):
he can use he will use against others.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
You know. Yeah, well that's that's something that I maybe,
I mean, if it works for every I mean that
maybe has a good opportunity to slip over to just
read as a character. I wonder I'm trying to think
I couldn't think of like a modern day analog for
this character, because I do think that there is value
in presenting a character like this, who is you know,

(01:00:48):
like I struggle, like a complicated guy, but someone who
responds to insecurity by being hateful like that is I
think something that exists in the world. It exists in
a lot of men, but a lot of people, but
mostly men. If we're being honest, But you know, in general,

(01:01:09):
these are people who exist in the world. I don't
think it's off the table to present that, but presenting
it as your movie star hero is a very difficult
self for me because then it's like, I think that
the element like Paul Newman, I think gives a good
performance in this movie, but he's Paul Newman. You know,
he's like, you're gonna love him because he's Paul Newman,

(01:01:32):
and he's charismatic, and he's handsome, and even when he's
saying horrible things, especially in the late seventies where people
said horrible things more openly than they currently do, Like,
it's just it's even if there is something to be
said about presenting a character like this, I feel like

(01:01:52):
the combination of positioning it as your main character and
your hero, and also like combining that with he doesn't
really I mean, I guess like he doesn't get what
he wants in the way that we see in some
movies where like someone fucking sucks the whole movie and
then for some reason they get exactly what they want
at the end. It's a mixed bag for Rege at

(01:02:13):
the end. But I wouldn't say he like he doesn't
get his uh really like he gets to continue to
work in hockey, Like he gets part of it. I
think the main thing he loses is the relationship that
he very obviously still wants, right and deservedly so and
not I think is one of the better done parts
of the movie for sure. But yeah, I don't know.

(01:02:34):
I struggled with how his character was framed.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
I don't know, especially because he learns nothing, he shows
no growth, and even at the end when it seems like,
you know what, I don't want to win this way
by you know, pummeling the other team. I want to
play hockey and win that way. And then as soon
as he's like, oh, they're scouts here, and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Like never, never mind.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's like okay, so you have absolutely no
code of ethics. That's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
And again, I mean, I don't know if we're supposed
to be where we're supposed to be in the discussion.
But you know, again, the more I thought about it,
I remember reading a piece several years ago about the
movie as you know, kind of a not a hockey
movie or a good but like a sort of a
snapshot of America kind of at the time, late seventies

(01:03:28):
and I you know, I can't really remember what the
economy was like, you know, but things, you know, longtime businesses,
you know, long time industries were really taking you know,
a hit back then, like the steel industry. And and
one of the things that kind of struck me watching it,
it's like with everybody depicted in there, even if they're

(01:03:49):
not characters in the movie, but like you know, the fans, right,
they're all looking at losing their jobs because they're you know,
their jobs are going to disappear. And the player will
they get signed, you know, will the team full? Will it?
You know, if they were believing it would get sold.
To me, there's like this low level desperation you know,

(01:04:11):
to survive on the on the parts of everyone there,
you know. And in the case of Paul Newman's you know,
Paul Newman being the oldest one, being not really that successful,
you know, I mean, whether this is you know him
all the time or not, you know, he's he's kind
of the worst one. He's like, I will I will

(01:04:32):
do anything. I'll do whatever it takes, you know, to
be able to continue my career someplace else or here.
And if it has to do with you know, kind
of manipulating my players or manipulating people who are involved
my players, you know, means to an end pretty much
all the way through.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
You know. I Yeah, I I the closest I can
get to rationalizing Rag's carecharacter. I read an essay, an
academic essay. I was on Google dot scholar dot com.
Of course. Yes, this was published in athlon A E.
T hl O N Eighth Lawn, The Journal of Sport Literature,

(01:05:15):
volume thirty seven, issue one from twenty nineteen, written by
John Source. To take everything he says with a grain AsSalt,
but I did really appreciate his retrospective view on this movie,
and I think it offered because he did a more
class driven view of the men on his team, which
I do think is a valuable way of looking at

(01:05:38):
this movie. But he basically makes the argument that Reggie's
character like doesn't shy away from the fact that reg
is a despicable character, and I do. I guess it's
like we don't have nineteen seventy seven goggles to put on,
and I wonder how clearly that read at the time.
But I think that the argument that he makes the

(01:06:00):
I think is interesting and kind of speaks to like
the parts of this movie that did work for me
was that, you know, I think the setting is very
relevant here where they're like encapsulated in this fictional steel
town where jobs are falling left and right. There's this
huge sense of insecurity about the future, and you see

(01:06:22):
in these men on the team a level of like
people acting desperately when their future is insecure. And I
think reg is a really extreme, kind of like monstrous
version of that, where he is so desperate to preserve
what he wants for his version of the future that
he will undercut almost anyone in his life, even if

(01:06:44):
he likes and respects them. He is not above completely
selling them out in order to preserve the future that
he feels entitled to. And John Soares kind of makes
the argument that this movie The Streets, well, I guess
something that is historically true. I didn't know this, but
I was delighted to learn it that in times of

(01:07:07):
economic insecurity and in recessions and depressions, women are like
statistically more likely to move with the time, and men
are more likely to cling to how things were and
be unwilling to change their situation. They're less likely to
want to move, They're less likely to want to switch professions.

(01:07:29):
They're less likely to want to change the way that
their day to day life is versus women are far
more likely to be I guess like just kind of
more realistic about what's happening.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
More adaptable.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
You know, there's a line in the movie and in
the scene where you know, redch and his opponent's wife
are in bed, and it closes with I think he's
telling her, you know, the team's going to fold, or
the team they know, I don't know what I'm going
to do, and she says to him, you know, just
just use your imagination. That's what I've been doing. So

(01:08:02):
it's you know, And I think he uses that line
himself later on yea, on somebody else, but you know, but.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
He's still I mean, but I think that that's part
of like what is frustrating about the men in this
movie for me is like they even at the end,
and I think the movie is conscious of this, Like
reg has not really changed because his last line is
him lying about whether his wife is leaving him or not,
because you know, Lily is like, oh, is she coming
and he's like yeah, and we know she's not. And

(01:08:32):
it's like this it's kind of like a I think
viewed a certain way, and this is not the way
that this character is regarded in pop culture, but I
liked looking at it that way of like, this guy
is kind of tragic. He can't accept that things are
changing and that his life is changing, and that is
something that I think is like very relatable and everyone
has experienced that to some degree. And also it's like

(01:08:55):
if you whatever, because we as the audience know that
he is just like really committed to having the upper
hand in his life in a way that's impossible, and
I just thought it was interesting. But yeah, I think
that viewed from that sort of perspective, the men in
this movie are not flexible. They are completely inflexible and

(01:09:19):
they refuse to accept a future that is uncomfortable to them.
And the women in this movie are not like that.
They will. I mean, I think that the well, and
we'll talk about really shortly because it's like her character
is so frustrating because I feel like she was inconsistent
with this. But with the characters of Suzanne, who is

(01:09:40):
Suzanne Hanrahan I'm assuming, and Francine, they are both women
who are like, look, I was either uncomfortable, unsafe, and
so I got the fuck out and I moved on
with my life. And that's like, that's what you have
to do to survive. And I think it's a especially
effective with Francine because she knows that she's right to

(01:10:04):
leave him. I honestly was I thought that the movie
would end with them getting back together, and I was
so thrilled that it didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
Absolutely, it feels like a good fake out. Yeah, she
turns her car around and joins the parade. Yeah, I mean,
and that was you know again, that was a thing
that sort of struck me about the movie. You know,
in a lot of other movies, that's what would have happened.
You know, they would have gotten together at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
You know, she would have been like, Wow, you won
the trophy at the championship game. Well here's me another
trophy trophy.

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
Well, you know, happy endings in movies, right, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
The Hollywood does love a happy ending.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
But the last shot of this movie is her driving
in the other direction, and I feel like that great.
That was my favorite sort of thread in the movie.
Is I felt like because of the time, and I mean,
this still happens in movies that they would how I
end up reconciling When she showed up at the game
at the end, I'm like, well, that's curtain's on, Franccene.

(01:11:05):
She's gonna be fucked over. But rewatching it again knowing
that she leaves, it's even kind of like cooler. Yeah,
she was my favorite character because she consistently like she
has affection for her ex husband but also like doesn't
want to get back together. And I think like in
their interactions, it was really interesting because Paul Newman's character

(01:11:26):
is constantly trying to like manufacture a need that she
would have for him, where he's he's constantly like, well,
if you need money, you can call me, and she's like,
I don't bought, Like you know, she doesn't need him,
and he can't like he knows that at his core
because he says it behind her back. He never says
it to her face, but he says behind her back like, oh, yeah,
since my wife broke up with me, her life has

(01:11:48):
been way better, Like he says that to Lily, So
it's like he knows it, but he can't really admit it.
And it's just it felt like an interesting, like complicated
relationship dynamic that feels like something that happens in the
real world. And I just like that specific subplot I
think kind of worked for me, especially because Francine was like,

(01:12:09):
you know, touched that he seemed to recognize that when
she heard it from a third party. But he's right,
and she wants to move on with her life and
she does, and I thought that that was cool. Yes,
But for some reason, that same nuance in generosity is
not extended to Lily, which I found to be so weird.

(01:12:32):
I'm like, was that a studio note, Like two women
can't leave their husbands, it can just be the one
like what happened there? Because Lily, I think again, is
set up in an interesting way, but then it kind
of goes away by the ant of the movie, right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
It seems like she's being set up that her arc
will be like she's mustering up the courage to actually
leave her husband, which is so that she seems to
want to do for a while. She's like very vocal
about how miserable she is in this town. She seems

(01:13:10):
very miserable in the relationship. She's watching her husband flirting
with other women, and she eventually I don't know if
there's some catalysts that gets her to finally leave him,
or if it just kind of happens, but one day
she shows up on Also the fact that she goes
to Reggie. I guess he's the only person who has

(01:13:32):
like extended any kind of olive Brancher or anything.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
I sort of found that to be an act of
desperation because we've seen her fail to make friends and
connections inside of this small world that she's been forced into.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Kind of right, because we see her hang out with
other hockey wives for lack of a better term.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
Who to be fair, and I think this is like
a class thing where she and her husband ned because
they're like from you know, well to do families, and
they're both college educated. She is positioned as like smarter, hotter,
better than the other hockey wives, which didn't feel fair.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Right, Yeah, and she's not able to connect with them.
So anyway, she leaves Bryden for a while and goes
to Reggie and she's like, I'm moving in, I guess,
and then he takes her. He introduces her to Franccene,
and what I would have liked to have happened was

(01:14:31):
they become friends. They have a lot of common ground.
You know they're both.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
Which is like established, and the one scene they have together,
it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Right, like there's a lot to learn for sure, like
there are neither like current or former relationships with hockey
players who don't know how to treat women well at all,
and the women are sick of it. And I thought
it was gonna be a situation where Franccene empowers Lily
to like you know, write out on her own, because there's.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Which it's like, I well, but that's what was so confusing,
because it felt like, you know, you can I don't know,
like the makeover thing didn't bother me at all really
because it's also like we're seeing Susanne or no, sorry,
we're seeing Francceine at her job. So okay. I think
a lesser movie would have reg be like we gotta
make this girl over and you know, but like Reg

(01:15:24):
right there and Francine and like whatever, it's a dated
way of doing it. But I was like, okay, but
then when but then when they go to the hockey game,
like what happened? Because I really liked that conversation where
Lily is and again it's like in the context of
like what I mean, we're well into second wave feminism
by the late seventies, but leaving your husband in the

(01:15:45):
late seventies is different than currently, right, and there are
different dynamics to that, and so I understand why, like
Lily is nervous about it. It's a nerve wracking experience
to leave your spouse, no matter what is happening in
But I liked how Francine like she said, it's lousy

(01:16:05):
at first you think you're dying, but then it's fabulous.
You become a new woman and you're like, this is
such an interesting dynamic to set up, but then it
just goes nowhere, it goes back nowhere.

Speaker 4 (01:16:15):
Yeah, yeah, and the interesting you know Caitlyn too, I mean,
like and Jamie, that's your name, right, Yeah, I agree.
Like Lily, you know, that whole character sort of confuses
me because you know, she makes very clear she doesn't

(01:16:35):
like that life. They could go back to, you know,
something easier with money, and she leaves her husband but
stays in the life. You know, she stays in the town.
She goes to another hockey person, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
So it's like, I do wonder, I mean, but I wondered,
like if that was just like temporary and then she
because it was like, I mean, I guess it took Franccene.
We don't know how long she and reg have been separated,
or how long Francine had to save or whatever it
would take for her to start her restart her life
somewhere else, But I don't know. It seemed like the

(01:17:12):
movie was setting us up for like, oh, Franccene could
inspire or give Lily the confidence to do something similar.

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):
Yes, coach, I agree, like I empower her coachure, so
that that part was a little bit hard not to
just of it. It was like, oh, I didn't think
that was going to be the result of this, you know, right, because.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
Then it's like Ned, Ned does not change at all.
I know that, like symbolically him doing the strip tease
is supposed to mean something, but it just like that
did nothing for me at all. I found his character
frustrating throughout. I mean, as you know that, I just
like did not take to that character at all. I
didn't like him. I thought he was both snobby and

(01:17:53):
exactly all of the things that he claimed that he
was above. Like yeah, I just I just didn't I
thought he's like such a snotty little asshole who is
horrible to his wife. I didn't know how to communicate
with her. Again, a legitimate relationship dynamic to explore, but
like I felt like at the end, he's like, now
I got my wife back and she's got this cool

(01:18:15):
new makeover, and it's like, but you did nothing, You
did nothing. And the last thing he did before he
did his weird little routine that I didn't like, was like,
talk shit about her on the radio. And I was like,
is ay I gonna tell her about that? Say, we're
gonna tell her that he called her a hot piece
of ass who's an alcoholic that hates him on the radio,

(01:18:37):
because I would not be thrilled to hear my spouse
saying shit like that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
True. But then I'd be like, but he's exactly right.
I am a hot who hates.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
Him, and I'd stop drinking if I if I just
left him.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when Francine and Lily show up
to the game at the end, one of them says,
what am I even doing here? And I'm like, yeah,
your question, what are you even doing there?

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
I wish that I knew the answer.

Speaker 4 (01:19:07):
Well, I think if if Lily wanted to go to
that last game. She did not really have a lot
of friends among the other wives. True, you know, so
you know, like as an ally maybe And there is
another scene and you know, you know, we've talked mainly
about the same two three women, but there are some
scenes with the other wise. Like there's a scene where

(01:19:28):
the wives are all in their car waiting for their
husbands to get home from a bus trip. And I
thought it's a sort of a sad scene, but in
the in the in the same way, they kind of
like have to kind of you know, form their own
little group and rally around each other and support each
other because they clearly are not, you know, too psyched
with with the life either. And there you know what

(01:19:51):
their husbands are doing, and you know that they're gone
and this and that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
I wish since this is mostly an ensemble cast, you know,
you've got Paul Newman is like the main character, but
you've got a lot of little subplots with various other characters,
that there was more focus on the wives of these
hockey players, because to me, they're in more interesting situations

(01:20:17):
than especially because so many of the men are characterized
as either just being like hot headed or trying to
prove something about their masculinity, or their sleezy creeps, or
their wildly homophobic you know, all of this stuff that
I don't want to see. And then the women are

(01:20:37):
in this position of you know, it's a time where
a lot of people in like hetero couples, the women
were still relying on their husbands for sustainable like for
his income, and women in the workplace were not as
welcome as they are today. So it was hard to

(01:20:58):
be a single one owner to be, you know, someone
earning your own way as a woman at that time,
and so they're relying on these men who are not
treating them well at all. But it's also very like
normalized culturally, but they still are like heavily drinking about it.

(01:21:21):
There's a scene where.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
I will actually I liked the scene. I think you're
gonna reference because I yeah, it's I'm trying to like
put this through because it's like, it's not like there
were not movies that had women protagonists in the seventies,
but in sports movies, I know that that was I
feel like, I don't know, I feel like I feel
a little defensive of Nancy Dad because I will say,

(01:21:44):
I do think that in this movie, the men, with
the exception of Reg, who at least you see a
few layers of even though I kind of dislike all
of them, but you do see different lairs of this character,
so there's like no and how he's written. But I
think that the women that are presented far more broadly

(01:22:05):
than the men are because most of the hockey team,
except for like Ned and Reg, are like just like,
here's this guy, and this is what he does and
how he reacts. Like here's a sexist guy, here's a
violent guy, here's a homophobic guy. And you're like, there's
all these guys, and they're written in the very, very
broad way that men in raunchy comedies are, which is

(01:22:29):
kind of why I don't like the genre. But I
will say that, like, I mean, I even think back
to like raunchy comedies that came out when we were
the target audience, and I'm thinking like early hangover movies
and like John Appatow movies and shit like that, and
I feel like in this movie you get women, like
more different kinds of women than you did like thirty

(01:22:52):
years later in some cases. But true, I think the
hockey wives are the most broadly written women that appear
in the movie. And I didn't love that because I
feel like it in the same way that I didn't
like when Ned was like a snotty like I went
to whatever fucking school he went to, and so I'm
better than most of the guys on this team, like

(01:23:12):
it's just like a moral superiority. And Lily kind of
takes that into how she treats the hockey wives, where
I think she treats them kind of as like bimbos
who aren't as smart as her, and it seems like
that is a part of the reason that she doesn't
hang out with them, because it seems like the other
hockey wives, who I don't know if we get names
for them, they seem like they I mean, they have

(01:23:34):
a lot in common. A lot of what they have
in common sucks. Is like they are sort of along
for the ride of their husband's career and it seems
isolating and depressing and frustrating. And I thought it was
she's made a joke of. But we see the same
hockey wife a few different times who's constantly like kind
of referencing like Johnny either like Johnny, Yes, Johnny's who's Johnny.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
I have no idea which Johnny is, but he's one
of them.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
One of those. But I thought Johnny's wife like she's
played for laughs mostly, But I thought it was like,
I don't know, I didn't. I liked her like she
was she was like trying to make the best of
what she seemed to know was a bad situation. But
she's like I'm trying to get my husband to read
a book, or like I'm trying to get my husband
to do anything except be a fucking goon, which is

(01:24:24):
like whatever, what like all the guys in the team are,
and it's you know, it's not. Is it the most
progressive thing ever? No, But I didn't feel like there is.
Like she was like an interesting character that I wish
it had been played for more than last because when
one of the fights that Lily and Ned have in public,
you know, Lily basically ends by being like me and

(01:24:46):
Ned are better than everyone here, bye, and like leaves right.
And Johnny's wife, who God, I wish she had a
name respond to that by being like, oh, I really
feel for her, and you're like, that's I don't know,
I whatever, Like I guess I understood like those. It
seems like it's implied in the movie that those women

(01:25:07):
don't connect with each other because of class differences. But
I felt like the hockey wives I thought were played
broadly in a way that it would have been because
I appreciated that the movie made time for women at all,
which again it's like, I like, sports movies almost never do,
and if you, if you do, it's like the supportive

(01:25:30):
wife like grabbing their husband's hand being like go.

Speaker 7 (01:25:34):
Go coach a baby or whatever the fuck, which is
like so fucking boring. But it's like how a lot
of women appear in sports movies at all. But there
was especially because it's like Nancy Dad seemed to want
to include women.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
But it felt like well to an extent, like I'm
happy to include educated women, but like it seemed like
the hockey wives were. I just feel like there was
room for them to be played off as more of
kind of one liners. But I liked that scene in
the car where it was like, even though these women
don't get along, they do have a common struggle and

(01:26:08):
they are pushed aside and expected to put up with
all of this shit, and it's like leading to addiction
issues for them, and.

Speaker 2 (01:26:17):
Yeah, they all seem to be self medicating to fight
the just either loneliness or abuse that they're putting up with. Right,
can we talk about Suzanne, because.

Speaker 1 (01:26:31):
Let's talk about Suzanne.

Speaker 2 (01:26:33):
So Suzanne is the character. I think she's only in
one scene, yeah, which.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
Is wild because the actor who plays her is like
so successful and won an Oscar like this same year.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
Oh wow, what's her name? I didn't even look it up.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
Well, Linda Dylan. You probably my dad picked up on this.
I was like, oh, she is she? I think most
iconically plays the mom in a Christmas Story. But she
or no, sorry, she was nominated this same year for
playing I think the mom character in Close Encounters. Okay,

(01:27:11):
but whatever. She's like a very very successful actor. But
she's only in this movie for one minute, for.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
One scene, and it's the scene where she's in bed
with Reggie, and she's talking about how her husband Hanrahan,
when he was like out on the road for a game,
how she and another hockey wife they would get together
and talk about how depressed and lonely they were without

(01:27:41):
the men, and then also how they lamented that they
never did much of anything themselves, which I feel like
is also maybe what Lily struggles with to some degree,
where she's like, I'm not doing anything but like supporting
my husband in his career, but like what about or
maybe this is just like headcanon that I'm assigning to Lily.

(01:28:03):
But anyway, Suzanne's talking about how like, oh, I never
did anything for myself, and then she goes on to
describe how one night when she and this other hockey
wife were hanging out, they were drinking and they started
fooling around, but then they kept getting together and having
sex sober, and that they were like engaging in this

(01:28:26):
like sexual relationship that they were both into. And she's like, hey, Reg,
have you ever considered sleeping with men? And at first
he says no, but then he's like, who knows, maybe
I'll start sleeping with old goalies. And then I'm like, okay,
he's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:44):
That scene is like almost and then it's so frustrating.

Speaker 8 (01:28:48):
But it's also like I feel like that's like Reg sucks,
and it's like it's so frustrating to see a character
that in their more private moments seems to be a
better person than they are in their public.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
Yeah, right, Because again the whole reason this scene even
happens narratively in the movie is that so he now
has information that he uses against his opponent in a
way that like outs this guy's wife, like disparages her
for her queerness, and he's like using that as ammunition

(01:29:22):
to try to win the game and like for his
own personal benefit. He does something similar with the general manager,
that guy Joe, where he's like, Hey, remember that night
that you I walked in on you and you were
wearing like women's lingerie and then you came on to me. Well,
I don't have to tell anyone about that as long
as you give me. So he basically like blackmails him

(01:29:45):
to learn the owner who the owner of the team is.

Speaker 1 (01:29:49):
That's something that yeah, And then that's like I do
think the Reges is a super villain because I do
almost believe him when he says that he like he
he's like, I get it. It's the seventies, queer people exist, Like,
I do believe that he understands that. But the fact
that he understands that and is not above exploiting societal

(01:30:14):
homophobia against people that he knows and says he likes,
it's like, that's that's extra Evil's that's extra evil.

Speaker 4 (01:30:23):
And in that scene, you know, like first of all,
the scene where he you know, kind of bates the opponent,
the goalie, right, you know, with this information that he
has about his wife, you know, from a hockey perspective,
you know, nobody, nobody stands on the ice and shouts

(01:30:44):
at someone and then moves over.

Speaker 1 (01:30:45):
You know, Oh, they're not shouting plot points at each.

Speaker 4 (01:30:48):
Other on the Oh no no. So that that was
like annoying because some of the you know, some of
the stuff with the Hanson brothers, the hockey, the skating,
the this that the hitting you know is legit. Those
guys were really hockey players. But so Reg dunlop and
rages the goalie who attacks him finally after a goal

(01:31:08):
and it's a big fight. Now does anybody know at first,
like what caused this big fight? Did anybody hear what
Reggie was saying? I don't think so? Just the goalie? Yeah,
so he he could have left it there on the ice, right,
But then he comes in and tells his whole team
like when they asked him, would you say, you know,
and he you know someone else that he was you know,

(01:31:34):
I don't know that that is diabolical.

Speaker 1 (01:31:38):
Yes, it's evil, Like it's evil, and it's first because
I didn't hate their scene together before I saw the
scene after, because it felt like these are themes and
just like queer people like just appearing in movies at
all in a way that was like it seemed like
they both accepted each other in that scene, and like

(01:32:00):
the language is not great, but it's like for the time,
it was like, wow, this it seems very unlikely that
this was appearing in like popular summer comedies at the time,
So okay, like you know, I can navigate around the
dated elements of it, but yeah, it's yeah, he was

(01:32:21):
so evil about that. And I feel like she because
that character never comes back. It doesn't come back around
in a satisfying way, but in the same way. I mean,
I love her. I like that scene. I think the
last thing that we were talking about, dad, that I
think is extra evil about Reg in that situation is
that she mentions in that scene that when her husband

(01:32:41):
found out that she had had sex with women, he
was so abusive to her that she was in the hospital.
And it's like, well, Reg clearly doesn't care about that, yeah,
because he then taunts her husband that he knows to
be abusive, and she says that like she's hiding out
from him, Like it's just sounds like she was in
this tremendously abusive relationship, which again I believe it like seems,

(01:33:06):
you know whatever, that that still happens. But the fact
that like our movie starting Hero then does that, I
feel like it did undercut the fact that the movie
went out of its way to say like that her
having a queer relationship. Not only was he up said
about being cheated on, but also this thing that felt

(01:33:26):
I don't know, I mean that I guess you can
tell us for the time, like there seemed like there
was talk among the men of just confusion and like
hateful confusion in handra hand and the whole team's case,
They're like, well, if my wife has a relationship with
a woman, then am I gay and I can't be gay?
And like just like stuff that makes no sense.

Speaker 4 (01:33:47):
Yeah, that was a stretch. I think I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):
That that, you know, I was like people people believe that.

Speaker 4 (01:33:55):
Yeah, I'm not sure that you know, but when I
was a kid, I don't really think that that is
what somebody thought.

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
Yeah, I was like it doesn't make any sense, but
it Yeah, okay, I was, I was curious about that,
but it Yeah, I mean just again, reg Reg sucks.
I love Paul Newman and I love Salad, but I
hate Reg And it is what it is. But I
did think that it was again, it's like this, this
movie feels like it's doing incremental stuff in this genre

(01:34:26):
that you don't see decades later. So I do appreciate that.
It's like there is a queer character who is like
open about it is cool, is performed in a way
that felt authentic and cool. But also the seventies element
of it is that they're immediately put in danger and

(01:34:49):
then never appear in the movie again.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
So and you know, she's she's talking about her sexual
relationship with a woman, but the scene we're seeing on
screen is her in a sexual situation with a man,
because heaven forbid we see like queer romance or sexuality
actually on screen at that time.

Speaker 1 (01:35:11):
Yeah. Sure, or And it's like I sort of chalked
that up more to like, well, how did people talk
about bisexuality in the seventies, did they know? How did
they have the tools? I just sort of assudent they did.

Speaker 2 (01:35:25):
But also like the way that raunchy comedies of like
the nineties and two thousands would have, which.

Speaker 1 (01:35:33):
I think are worse than this movie. Honest, they are.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
They Yeah, and we've talked about I think I've like
speculated as to why, but the way that those movies
will have visibility of queer characters or of people of color,
but they're only there to then be like punching bags
to the main characters who are just saying horrible things

(01:35:58):
and like making jokes at their expense of like what
in whatever way they are marginalized, That's that's why they're there,
and it's so jokes can be made at their expense.
So and I felt the same way for Suzanne, like, yes,
she's a queer character who's talking openly about her queerness
to someone who seems receptive to it. But we learned

(01:36:21):
that that scene is only in the movie so that
this guy can use that as ammunition to win a
hockey game and then boast about it. He's like, yeah, team,
the reason we won is because I outed this woman
who has an abusive husband, and.

Speaker 9 (01:36:39):
Anyone who had listened, yeah, that's I think that's like
that's a not that it justifies any kind of behavior,
but the fact that he does it a second time,
like he shouts it at her husband, which is putting
her in danger in one way, but then he does
it a second time.

Speaker 1 (01:36:55):
Right after, and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
Like he's the worst.

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
Just so you doing.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
I don't have much else to say except that their
their bus driver is wearing a helmet with a swastika
on it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
I noticed that as well.

Speaker 4 (01:37:12):
I never never caught that the first several times I
watched the movie. You know, Walt Walt, who just goes
from Walt the bus driver and you know, he's another one.
He gets all swept and swept up in the you know,
chiefs mania and starts you know, hammer and the bus,
you know, to make it look meaner, and then the swastika,

(01:37:32):
you know, but that you're.

Speaker 1 (01:37:33):
Just like, is that? Yeah? That that was a kind
of jump scare in the movie, and it's like if
it was. I think maybe the most generous reading of
that was like, oh, this team is getting more and
more evil, but we were like, there's so many there's
no world where that was necessary. No.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
Yeah, there's also an indigenous player during the final game.

Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
I want to talk about that. Yes, I mean I
know obviously you did get spread it up. Yes, which
in general, because the team in this movie are called
the Chiefs and there's a lot of and I think
that that's an ongoing conversation in sports, is it is
teams that are named and characterize Indigenous people as mascots,

(01:38:25):
and that's an ongoing conversation also in hockey specifically because
the Chicago Blackhawks. I mean that I know you know this,
you know this whole conversation of representing Indigenous people as
mascots and the issues and conversations that have taken place.
And also that team is still called the Chicago Blackhawks.

(01:38:46):
They did not make any changes after that conversation was had.
I was trying to happen in the mid twenty tens.
But so this team is named the Chiefs, and there
is a character in the.

Speaker 2 (01:39:03):
On the Syracuse team, Yes, what is his Clarence swamp
Town aka Screaming Buffalo, who is played by a real
hockey player named Joe Nolan, who is First Nations.

Speaker 1 (01:39:21):
I was worried that I was really worried that it
was a guy in brown.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
A white guy. Yeah, but this is a real Indigenous person,
a real hockey player However, the way that the costuming
and the just characterization of that character is still relying
heavily on stereotypes of Indigenous and First Nations people. So whoops.

Speaker 4 (01:39:48):
Yeah, that's a tough one, you know, I mean all
the way down to like I said earlier, there was
so much of the hockey parts of it are like,
you know, an exaggeration, you know, like almost like a caricature,
you know, of that scene. That's one of the things
in the in the mood, it's like that never would
be allowed, you know, he just he that's that's a

(01:40:11):
you know. And again it's you know, we've talked to
you know, if you could snip this guy out and
this guy out, it really changes thing. That was like,
all right, you've you've made your point. You know that
the Syracuse team is loaded up on rugged guys, right,
you know, to pay you back? You know, like how
many did you have to have?

Speaker 1 (01:40:30):
Right? Well? And it's also like I don't think that
the solution to that is cutting out that character. It's
just presenting this real life First Nations hockey player in
a way that wasn't you know, inherently connected to the
fact that he was a First Nations player, Like I
don't know, I have no objection to like having a

(01:40:50):
cause because, like you've mentioned that, there's so many real
life hockey players that appear in this movie, and Joe
Nolan like played on a number of teams, including the
Johnstown Jets. He's from a hockey family. He is h
This is according to Hockey Legends dot com scholarly journal.
Yes exactly. He is Ojibwa. He is the uncle of

(01:41:15):
Buffalo Sabers coach Ted Nolan and great uncle of Jordan
Nolan of the La Kings. So he's like from a
like legacy hockey family. There's no issue with him being
in this movie. It's just like presenting him as not
inherently connected to his Like it's just like it's obviously
written by a white writer of the time, disrespectful and

(01:41:36):
just being like, well, this is his heritage, so this
is going to be the whole character, and we're going
to write it in the way like we're going to
write him for a white audience.

Speaker 2 (01:41:45):
Yeah, the most trophy way possible.

Speaker 1 (01:41:48):
And it would have been cool, Like it would been
cool if Joe Nolan was cast in a role that
was not that like was just like he could have
played a he could be a guy on that team,
but just it's obviously racist the way.

Speaker 2 (01:42:00):
Right with more than fifteen seconds of screen time, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
I also this is like separate, but I learned about
it on my trip at the Hockey Hall of Fame,
so I wanted to mention it and we can link
it in the description of this episode. But just the
history of Native American and First Nations players within hockey,
there's a lot to be discussed and learned about where

(01:42:25):
there are still a number of I mean like, there
are a number of Native players in professional hockey today,
but there's also a history of hockey in reservation schools,
and hockey has a role in Canadian reservation schools. There's
been a lot written about it in the last couple
of years that I think is very relevant to what

(01:42:47):
we're talking about, very interesting, and especially when this Jo
Nolan character came up, it was like, oh, there's actually
a lot of troubling and like relevant Indigenous history within
hockey that if you're interested, we can link a piece
that I read below and I learned about it. I
don't know why I keep plugging the Hontey muse. I
thought it was really interesting and we'll link it.

Speaker 6 (01:43:10):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:43:11):
Indeed, ironically, I have never been to the Hockey Hall
of Fame.

Speaker 1 (01:43:15):
I know, it's just like texting you pictures the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
Where is it Toronto?

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
Yes, in Toronto, the Hockey Hall of Fame. I saw
the Stanley Cup from a healthy distance, and then I
did not pay ten dollars to have a picture taken
next to it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:28):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:43:28):
Nice, I took a picture of it from far away.

Speaker 2 (01:43:31):
Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?

Speaker 4 (01:43:36):
Well, just because I did all the research on the
one of the interesting things, I mean, the people who
know this movie would be very frustrated. It was like,
how could you not talk about? You know? The interesting
things to me are that there really were Like so
the three Hansome brothers. There really were three brothers on

(01:43:58):
that Johnstown team. Their last name was Carlson. They were
all supposed to be in the movie. One of them
got called up to a better team, so they had
to replace him with somebody who looked similar. His last
name was Hanson, and that's that's how they named the
three the Hansons. But god, it just there's a there's

(01:44:20):
a lot of little interesting things there the one character
that he's like, I want to collect that bounty. Who
is another person that Regg Dunlop you know, manipulates because
he's you know, kind of like a peacenik and a
meditator and everything like that, And all of a sudden
he becomes Dave Killer Carlson. Well, Dave Killer Carlson was

(01:44:42):
a real player, and he replaced the Hanson that had
to leave. It's just there's a lot of funny things
in there. So he thought he was going to get
to play himself, but instead he had to be a
you know, become like a surrogate brother and be in
a movie where someone played him. My last favorite thing is,

(01:45:05):
you know, I'm no actor, but throughout the movie there
are references made to this player that everybody's fearful of,
you know, Ogie Oglethorpe. Right, Yes, Ogie finally shows up
in that last game, never says a word, scowling at
everybody in that scene, scowling and then fighting. That is

(01:45:26):
Ned Dowd, whose sister wrote the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:45:30):
Oh okay, Nancy Dowd's brother.

Speaker 4 (01:45:32):
Yes, so Ogie is you know, but I mean, I
just that scene just cracks me up. Just the skating
out with the you know, chewing the gum and looking
either ways. You know, but for for that on a
screen time, just you you know, to sell it, I'm like,
all right, nice job guy, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:45:50):
Yeah, I mean I like I think that that's like
just the I don't know element of just like how
she did this sort of immersive approach to research and
then seemed to include a lot of people that she'd
come across or learned about in that research in the movie.
Like that's I just I don't know, I think that's cool.

Speaker 4 (01:46:08):
You know, and you know, there are there are elements
of truth in the two and then I'll stop talking about.
You know, the Charlestown Chiefs slash Johnstown Jets that nineteen
seventy seven season that concluded so they could make the movie.
The Jets didn't go out of business, but their league folded.

Speaker 1 (01:46:24):
Oh oh okay, you.

Speaker 4 (01:46:25):
Know, so this this was a thing that was happening,
and that league had only been around for four years.
The other thing that's interesting is like, you know how
outrageous it was that, like, why would anybody a hockey
team in Florida? Well, you know, there are professional hockey
teams in Florida now and it's you know, it's gone
pretty well in a couple of the places.

Speaker 1 (01:46:43):
So yeah, well, I guess that's the last thing I
wanted to say was that I appreciated that the movie
went out of its way to connect the struggle of
this hockey team to what was going on in their community,
and how like it was just like acknowledging I don't know,
I felt like because it was done off of this
very specific reporting in this region or this research I

(01:47:06):
guess in this region, it like does reflect the socioeconomic
problems in the Pittsburgh area in the late seventies and
connects it to this hockey team in a way that feels,
I don't know, like class conscious, in a way that
a lot of sports MOVI fees either aren't or feel
like overly sort of melodramatic about. It. Just felt like

(01:47:27):
it fit very cleanly into this world, and like not
only like it wasn't like the town and the team
because it was a minor league team. The team is
a part of the town and so they're all sort
of sharing the same kind of issues, right.

Speaker 2 (01:47:41):
Yeah, that and we you know, we're talking about this earlier.
But how Reggie like does a bunch of you know,
it's like desperate times call for desperate measures, and under capitalism,
when you know your livelihood is being threatened, a lot
of people do have to act out of desperation and

(01:48:03):
do things that they would maybe not otherwise do to survive.
But and so and that manifests in Reggie as like
manipulating people in a way that's like extremely harmful. So
I guess my point is, like you can do things
out of desperation because capitalism is killing us all without

(01:48:27):
also being extremely homophobic and you know all the other
things that he does, Like it would be one thing
if all he did was just like lie to his
team and like plant that story in the sports writer
to be like I heard we were getting bought by Florida.
And if he tells his team this and his objective

(01:48:48):
is just to get morale up so that they can
win and like actually maybe have a shot, Like I
wouldn't have any problem with that really because it's like
a not a not a diabolical.

Speaker 1 (01:48:59):
Lie, it's a victimless crime.

Speaker 2 (01:49:01):
Yeah, But the fact that he's doing that, plus all
manner of like blackmailing, homophobia, outing people, all this stuff
like that's where I can't.

Speaker 4 (01:49:16):
Yeah, so you're not just gonna call him over that
old rascal red chunk today.

Speaker 1 (01:49:27):
So okay, let's get through it. I this movie does
it does well.

Speaker 4 (01:49:35):
I was so surprised to hear yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:38):
He kept checking with me to make sure that, and
he was like, wait, what so it doesn't Well, it's
a flawed metric. It doesn't. Just because it passes doesn't
mean it's a feminist movie.

Speaker 2 (01:49:49):
Because Lily and Francine talk about Lily's hair and cheekbones.

Speaker 3 (01:49:54):
And share and they mentioned share, and then there's the
other scene where it's Lily and then the two other
women who I don't think have names, So by that
caveat it would not pass.

Speaker 2 (01:50:07):
But they are talking about drinking alcohol and.

Speaker 1 (01:50:11):
They're talking about addiction problem. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:50:13):
Like yeah, so so it's by the scants teeth.

Speaker 1 (01:50:18):
But it does technically pass. And I feel like I
want to I want to hand it to this movie
as passing because of it feels like in many ways
the odds are stacked against any sports movie about a
men's demon passing. I was really surprised that it technically passes.

Speaker 4 (01:50:35):
I mean, if I can. I mean, when I thought
about it in the you know, you know the theme
of your cast. I really just thought that this was
a movie that you know, crass and guys and thee
but that the women kind of like stuck up for
each other helped each other, didn't always. I mean, France
scene's great. I mean she tells them like right off

(01:50:57):
the bad one of their first scenes, like you know,
you're terrible coaches teams state you know. I mean, yeah,
she does it right, you know, so and and you know,
and I love, like I said, I love most of
the last scene. I still can't figure out, you know,
how Lily and Ned end up together. And I agree

(01:51:20):
with you caitle. And I thought that that the scene
with Franccene was going to empower her to really go
but you know, the fran scene, you know, goes her
own way. I mean it's just, you know, it's sort
of her own path because she you know, cuts through,
cuts through the parade and goes down the you know,
down the road by herself. I just thought it was,

(01:51:41):
you know, that that was an element to the movie
that shouldn't really you know, be overlooked for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:51:47):
Yeah, I mean yeah, and I do think for especially
for its time and also for this genre even now
it is like unusual for women to be included. Also,
as much as I hate ned, he was in Twin Peaks,
so that's kind of fun.

Speaker 4 (01:52:03):
He played hockey at the University of New Hampshire as.

Speaker 1 (01:52:05):
Well, and we can't take that from them either, of course.

Speaker 4 (01:52:09):
And it's big time hockey, oh is it?

Speaker 1 (01:52:11):
Yes? See? Okay, now I'm nice. Sound like an asshole.
I didn't know that. This movie surprised me in ways
I wasn't expecting it to.

Speaker 4 (01:52:21):
But but we should.

Speaker 1 (01:52:22):
We should talk about the most important metric on the
face of the planet, which is our nipple scale.

Speaker 2 (01:52:27):
Yes, a scale of zero to five nipples in which
we rate the movie. That's true, you heard.

Speaker 1 (01:52:34):
Yes, we need to break it down zero to.

Speaker 2 (01:52:35):
Five nipples, rating the movie based on examining it through
an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, I'll give this movie one
nipple for it's a handful of female characters who, obviously

(01:52:56):
I wish the movie had done a lot more with
given more just real estate and the story to Susanne
only being there so that her situation could be used
as ammunition against her husband is obviously gross. But if
she had been a more meaningful character. So I guess
I'm giving it one nipple for the potential that the

(01:53:18):
movie mostly squandered. I do appreciate that Francine stands her
ground in not being willing to get back together with
her shitty husband. I agree that like most movies would
have like framed her as like the he's trying, he's trying,
and at the end he finally gets her back and

(01:53:38):
she's the other trophy he wins. But this movie doesn't
do that, and that does count for something. Wow, the
bar is so low, but everything else the movie does
as far as it's just like rampant homophobia, ablest slurs

(01:53:59):
are getting around casually, the treatment of the one indigenous
character that we see on screen, all that kind of stuff.
If anyone is looking for a movie that features mostly
men that is about men who are affected by a

(01:54:20):
steel mill closing, might I recommend The Full Monty because
it handles themes of toxic masculinity and things like that
in a much more thoughtful way. I would say, not
about hockey, though it is about men stripping, although wow,
similar ending because we go slapshot does end in a

(01:54:43):
strip tease. So anyway, I I'm glad. I guess that
this movie, at least for like Jamie yours and my
generation and younger generations, it is not something that most
people are super aware of. It has not like it
hasn't ended up. Is like this like piece of classic
Hollywood cinema that you must revisit. It's it doesn't have

(01:55:06):
much of a lasting legacy in that way.

Speaker 1 (01:55:09):
Well, I mean except for hockey fans, where it's not
a massive leg like in a niche way. It has
a huge legacy in the general way, not as.

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
Much true true. Yeah, So one nipple and I will
give it to my favorite character, fran Scene.

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
I'm gonna give this movie to Nipples because it's my
birthday and I know, but I do think that like
I agree with I mean, we've talked about it at
length now where this movie is not generous in so
many ways. It is wildly homophobic the one native character
it represents, which is also I think that Joe Nolan

(01:55:47):
is the only non white character who really appears in
this movie meaningfully in any way. Yeah, which again is
not necessary, especially because of the region you're in. It, Like,
there's plenty of diversity to be found in this region.
I know that hockey is predominantly a white sport, but
it's a movie. You can do whatever the fuck you want.
But I do think that this movie is I don't know,

(01:56:09):
I mean a sports comedy in the seventies. Having women
included it at all feels kind of like a miracle
to me. And having a successful sports movie written by
a woman feels kind of like a miracle to me
for this era. And so I want.

Speaker 2 (01:56:24):
To miracle another hockey movie.

Speaker 1 (01:56:27):
Hate it, but that's like the exact kind of corny
ass movie I'm talking about where all the girls are
like you've got this baby, and you're like, oh my god. Like,
I do think that this movie has incredible fault. It's
like at the end because because we've talked about so
many broad comedies on this show, and all of the
swings are huge, and when they hit, they hit, and

(01:56:48):
when they're bad, they're awful. They're almost worse than you
can find in any genre, right, And I think the
same is true in horror or like any like broad
niche genre that tends to be true. And so this
movie is wildly dated. I understand why it is not popular.
We watched. I'm not even recommending it really. I just
was surprised by the fact that women were presented in

(01:57:12):
uh for the most part, in empathetic way, even though
I did not agree with how everyone everyone's arc was resolved.
So I'm gonna go too, and I'm gonna give one
freent scene because she rocks, and one to Lily because
she deserved better. And I hope that she you know,
divorced ned six months later or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:57:31):
Fingers crossed?

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
Dad, what would you give this movie?

Speaker 4 (01:57:35):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:57:35):
Based on his portrayal of women intersectionally.

Speaker 4 (01:57:39):
Boy, I have to I have to do this. I'm
not I'm not trained. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (01:57:44):
Whatever feels right in your heart.

Speaker 4 (01:57:46):
Yes, I guess two just because too, because nipples. Well, no,
just because too. And I have to pick character.

Speaker 2 (01:58:00):
You can do you can distribute them or you can
keep them, whatever you want to do.

Speaker 4 (01:58:05):
I mean, I like, I don't know, I just like,
for inscene is A is a great character, you know,
I mean, I like that part of you know how
she's like. You know, I don't care if you you know,
I know you, you know, I know you as a person,
and you know you know you might be able to
fool everybody else, you know, but you can't fool me
anymore and goes to run a way and you know again,

(01:58:26):
missus missus Hanrahan. I never remember her first. I just
think that's a touching kind of a but that's that's
a you know, that's quite a scene with her, and
it's it's serious and funny, and I just really thought
that that was a you know, probably back in the
day it was like, oh, that's a gratuitous thing, you know,

(01:58:48):
like look at this thing, but you know, look looked
at now and her story and everything like that. I
think that's you know, I don't know what to say.
I can't say that I think that's great, but you
know it, I mean, it's just one that like sticks
with me anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:59:03):
I know what you mean. It would be a fine
scene if the thing that happens after it didn't happen exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):
Right, right. That's why it's like this movie is just
like frustrating in that way where you're like, wow, this
is representation or like a character you would not normally
see in a broad comedy, but then they're treated so
poorly that you're like, well, why why did you go
out of your way to do that? If you were
just going to treat them as a plot point and
never showed them again, which I think is also inherent

(01:59:31):
to this genre in the ways that I don't know.
I found it especially frustrating too, because it's like I
thought Suzanne was in the one scene she had was
presented with empathy and she was cool, and it was like, oh,
this is really and then like we were talking about,
like she's treated horrifically and we never get to see

(01:59:51):
her again. We don't know what happens to her, and
the movie doesn't really seem to have interest in it
because she was ultimately just a plot point to get
read to the next step.

Speaker 2 (02:00:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:00:01):
So a complicated, a more complicated movie than I was expecting.
And I'm glad we talked about it.

Speaker 2 (02:00:08):
Yes, indeed, and thanks for joining us, sad mister Mike.

Speaker 4 (02:00:11):
Oh hey, thanks for having me along.

Speaker 1 (02:00:14):
Happy to do it. Uh yeah, do you have anything
you want to plug?

Speaker 2 (02:00:18):
Yeah? Where can people follow you on Twitter?

Speaker 4 (02:00:20):
I don't have us. There's no need to follow me
on Twitter. My uh, my days are done. My days
of mouthing off and I just uh, you know, which,
I didn't do that much. I was not I was
not the King of the hot takes, and now I
am the king of the silent take. I'll just I'll
just read along with you all nice. Well, well you

(02:00:41):
know I could I could plug this, you know, this
this podcast a certain book about hot dogs. You know,
there's always something, but.

Speaker 1 (02:00:49):
Simply just google book about hot dogs. Yeah all right,
Well well Dad, I really thank you for for coming
on the show.

Speaker 4 (02:00:58):
And I really can believe you let us. You badgered
us into doing this.

Speaker 1 (02:01:04):
I'm so glad we did though I don't know. It's
my birthday. I'm a dictator and I get to do
whatever I want.

Speaker 2 (02:01:11):
Yeah, happy birthday, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (02:01:13):
Thank you. This was a way to go.

Speaker 4 (02:01:14):
Jam Happy birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:01:16):
I remember he remembered it, and that's no I this
this episode was very special to me, both of you.
So thank you. I appreciate it, and I'm really glad
we got to do it. Love you, Jamie, love you too.

Speaker 4 (02:01:31):
Way to go, Way to go team.

Speaker 1 (02:01:33):
We did it.

Speaker 2 (02:01:33):
We won, We won the championship game.

Speaker 1 (02:01:36):
We won. We randomly did a strip tease and somehow
we want.

Speaker 4 (02:01:40):
To there the best podcast in the Federal League.

Speaker 1 (02:01:44):
Yeah. Yeah, we are kind of and I say this
with love, we are kind of a minor league podcast,
and yet our fan base is intense and they fill
the stand and we appreciate that we do because to
be a big podcast you have to talk about murder
in a dishonest way, and we don't do that. We
don't want to we do, or you have to be

(02:02:04):
like a fascist, so it's fine, or you have to
be I know a lot about sports and we don't.

Speaker 2 (02:02:10):
We clearly demonstrated that today that we do not know.

Speaker 1 (02:02:14):
Yeah, if there was any reason that now you know
both did you both did?

Speaker 4 (02:02:19):
Great?

Speaker 1 (02:02:19):
Thank you, thanks so much. You can find us on.

Speaker 2 (02:02:25):
No we are nothing without the validation of men.

Speaker 1 (02:02:29):
It's true of dad.

Speaker 4 (02:02:33):
Oh no, it's so hard.

Speaker 1 (02:02:35):
I only I only he's crying, he's crying. There. You
can find us online up at Bechdel Cast on Instagram
and Twitter. You can sign up for Patreon aka Patreon,
patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where you get two
bonus episodes every month for mere five dollars and also
get access to about one hundred and fifty episodes of

(02:02:57):
back catalog on the Patreon. Wow and it's my birthday
over there this month too. We really value birthdays on
this podcast, so that's true, we'll be covering Little Shop
of Horrors and a second one that on the day
of this recording. I've not yet decided my second evil
pick for the Patreon, but oh I will think of
something and it will be annoying. So head over there

(02:03:20):
for that.

Speaker 4 (02:03:21):
And Caitlin, when it comes happy birthday to YouTube, Thank
you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:03:25):
It will be in about eight months.

Speaker 4 (02:03:29):
Okay something like that, so just keep that in mind.
It's coming. I don't want to miss out my chance.

Speaker 2 (02:03:34):
Thank you so much. And you can also get our
merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast for
our glorious items available for purchase at any time.

Speaker 1 (02:03:48):
And with that, why don't we get on this local
parade float and lie about our wives leaving us.

Speaker 2 (02:03:57):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (02:03:59):
Bye bye, ay,