Spider-man: Into the Spider-verse

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephim Beast start changing with
the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Jamie, Caitlyn, when you get knocked down, you have to
get back up again.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
You're never gonna Spider Man down. I get knocked down.
Is that what you're doing? I know what you're talking about,
but you set me up for it.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
He he, No, and I'm glad you did that.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hello everyone. My name is Caitlin Dante.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
My name is Jamie Loftus, and.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
This is the Bechdel Cast, our show where we where
we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. We'll tell you
what that is in a moment. Today is a special
episode because we are releasing an episode that we recorded

(01:06):
for the Matreon. Yes, I think like four years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, I mean we and you in particular were very
pumped on this movie, as was the world as will
the world be again, which is why we are unlocking
our episode about Spider Man into the Spider Verse ahead
of the sequel, which if you don't know, if you
live under a rock, no judgment Patrick Starr. Sorry, I

(01:34):
was watching SpongeBob this morning, okay, brag, I mean literally
lives under a rock. It's commentary. So Patrick Starr probably
doesn't know that the sequel comes out this week, and
we're very excited to see it, so we wanted to
unlock the episode. Yes, so yeah. This originally appeared on
our Patreon aka Matreon, which hey, if you like this episode,
you can pop over there. Five bucks a month, two

(01:56):
bonus episodes a month, and it's been going since twenty
seventeen gasp.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Gasp, And this one was from May twenty nineteen. It
was one of my birthday episodes that year, so if
you hear references to it being my birthday throughout the episode,
that is why. But also it's kind of always my birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Also, your birthday wasn't that long ago, so truly, let's
we're going to continue celebrating and observing your birthday.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Thank you so much. We also talk about in this
episode how Alfred Molina is not in the MCU and
how that's a crime. Oh good catch, because at the
time of this recording, he was not in the MCU.
But then but then Spider Man No Way Home comes
out well, well well, which is about a different Spider

(02:46):
Verse than the Miles Morales Spider Verse according to the
movies at least, I don't know what happens in the comics.
But Alfred Molina, we are proud to say, is now
in the MCU.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
He's MCU can and honestly think, freaking god.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
It's about dang time.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
So that's been you know, one of the few things
Marvelous done right in the last couple of years is
finally formally induct mister Alfred Blina into the MCU. So yes,
remember this is the past. These are versions of ourselves
that are simply so stoked about Spider Man into the
Spider Verse. And we were right. But things have changed

(03:27):
and they've actually gotten much worse. So just keep that
in mind when you're listening to the episode. We have
no idea how bad things are going to get, and
so in that way, it's kind of a window to
the past. It is, but it's true. But we're very
excited to share it with the main feed. We're obviously
very pumped for the new movie we will very likely
be covering the new movie on either the main feed

(03:50):
or the Matreon down the line. But yeah, we wanted
to celebrate, so happy summer, and please enjoy the episode
on Spider Man into the spider Verse.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Please enjoy. But also, I guess first we should say
what the Bechdel test is, which we didn't pass when
we were talking about Alfred Molina, except that we did
make the rule that when we talk about Alfred Molina,
it does pass.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
But if you've been with us for a while, you'll
know that it passes on a technicality.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
However, However, normally the Bechdel Test, which is the media
metric that we named the show after, even though we
talk about so much more. But the Bechdel Test is
a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes
called the Bechdel Wallace Test. It first appeared in her

(04:42):
comic Dikes to Watch Out For as a bit and
also I want to do this more, but just to
shout out the context in which it appears in the comics,
because it's two queer women talking about how when they're
watching a movie and two women appear on screen and
they talk to each other if they're not talking about

(05:04):
a man. These characters in the comic strip kind of
ship the two women together because there was so little
and still is so little queer visibility on screen. Yeah,
so that is the context for the Bechdel test, the
version we use, There are many versions. Here's ours. Two

(05:26):
characters of a marginalized gender must have names, they have
to speak to each other, and their conversation has to
be about something other than a man. And we really
like it when it's a nice, substantial conversation and not
just a how's the weather, gale? It's good, Betty.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Although that's iconic.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
I mean that's that I should write an entire script
around that conversation alone.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah, it should be called how well not until the
strikes every Baby, which we will be talking about on
the Matreon this month. A little peek into some bonus
content coming up. But yes, we uh that that is
what the Bechdel test is. It's especially during the month
of June Pride months. I'm glad that it's something that

(06:17):
we're talking about the specific context.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yes, indeed, So with all of that in mind, please
enjoy this unlocked Patreon aka Matreon episode on Spider Man
into the Spider Verse cast.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Anyways, welcome, We're into the Spider Verse today. I'm excited, Caitlin.
I mean, I think if you, if you're familiar with
our show, you know your history with this movie is.

Speaker 4 (06:46):
But why don't you recap it?

Speaker 3 (06:48):
Well? I did see the movie five times in the theater.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
I mean, it's no me and Itania, but it's pretty impressive.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Wait. How many times did you end up seeing Ititania?

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Nine? Oh my god, I was really into it. There
is I have this very cursed screenshot of like the
two months I was signed up for a movie past
and it's like nine eye toon Yes, and then an
unsubscription once I was out of theaters. Oh my goodness, wild.
But five times is like intense. Yeah, yours you stand

(07:18):
this movie?

Speaker 3 (07:18):
I really do.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (07:20):
And then your history.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Is I just saw it for the first time. I didn't.
I simply didn't see it in theaters because I was
too busy watching my DVD of Ititonya at home. But
I mean, I am a fan. I'm a longtime fan
of Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
I think it's really the only superhero I've ever been
a fan to the point where I would like, go
keep up sure as best I could. Yeah, I think
a lot of that does have to do with Alfred Molina,
to be honest, obviously, because now that I'm saying I've
kept up with Spider Man, I haven't seen the new
ones and I didn't see the Andrew Garfield ones, So

(07:57):
I guess I really am just.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
Really just a big from Molina as dot com.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
I did like the Sam Raimi trilogy, and I don't
know why I didn't keep going with Spider Man. But
there was a while, like in middle school, I'm like,
I'm into Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Well the amazing Spider Man's with Andrew Grefield.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Are they suck? Right? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (08:17):
But then the new reboot that's part of the mculove. Yeah,
I really enjoyed the first one.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Okay, people, I mean I hear new Spider Man rules,
I just haven't seen it yet. But this was like,
I mean, this is like right up, Maley. I love
I love cartoons, I love experimental cartoons. I love Phil Lord.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
I have a huge crush on Phil Lord.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, so I was. I just saw it. I really
like it and I'm excited to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah the Lord is is he hot?

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh? Let me get you a visual. Sorry, Smiek Moore
is also hot. But there's a lot of hot people
involved in this movie. Actually it's uh, it's actually a
little bit of setting. Okay, why can't Okay, not to
dump on Christopher Miller, but that's not who I'm trying
to look at.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, I don't know what they look like.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
He's hot. He's a bit like he's hot, like they're
there were getting a lot of subpar comic con pictures.
He's hot.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Okay, the thing is, yeah, he's hot.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
He's hot.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Okay, you know, good for him.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
But let's talk about the movie.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, love it, Love it so much. There's so much
to love about it. The animation style is so it's incredible. Yeah,
the I mean, the story, the characters, the soundtrack is awesome.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
It's funny.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's funny. The movie does a really good job of
balancing like heavy emotional beats with like humor.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
There was one twist I legitimately did not see coming.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Was it the uncle?

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yes, I didn't see that coming.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
I didn't either.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
This is like, these movies are hard to at this
point because there's five hundred million superhero movies.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
It's hard to.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Not see something coming like that was. I was very
pleasantly surprised, and then like really sad I knew like
once he comes out, You're like, oh no, he's gonna
die cool.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
And then I cried.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
I cried like during three different parts of this movie.
When I first saw by myself on Thursday night of
opening weekend, and then oh the other the doc Ock reveal.
I didn't see coming the.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Doc Ock reveal. I think I did, but only because
you told me about it. I knew that doc docs
so womn. I knew that doc Cock was a woman. Yeah,
and then it was like, well, this is the only
woman in Stem we've seen so far. So yeah, oh

(10:45):
I like the reveal that Aunt May is a woman
in Stem in this one. You're just like, yeah, sure, right,
there's a lot of this movie where that in a
very pleasant way. I was like, yeah, of course, sure,
I'm Cage is in it, Sure, I'm I'm with this whatever.
It's so fun and yeah, and you never see a

(11:06):
movie this diverse in the normal MCU or really in
any movie at all. Right, So I'm like really glad
that this was this movie rated PG, yeah, PG. Yeah.
So I mean it's like that's the perfect like audience
for this movie and like the audience that both wants

(11:28):
to and needs to see like a cast this diverse
and funny and cool. So I'm I'm super psyched that
like a ton of people got to see it and
it was really successful. It like won all the awards,
it was financially successful, and Amy Pascal produced it. Love
her emails every time we bring it up. Every time
Pascal's in the ring, we got to bring up hashtag

(11:50):
her email. Sure if you haven't read Amy Pascal's emails, boy,
oh boy, she is not a fan of Angelina Jolie.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Oh I haven't. I guess I haven't read them.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Oh she was like the Sony email hack that was.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
I remember that, but I don't know the content of them.
I guess she.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Really said some funny, mean things about Angelina Jolie. Anyways,
let's talk about the movie.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, okay, So the recap is we are introduced to
Spider Man. He's given a voice over. He's like, look
at me, here's my comic book. I'm the only Spider
Man around and I'm cool and I love being Spider
Man on his.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Son And that's okay. First of all, you knew you
saw I was triggered by blonde spider Man or any
blonde adult male. Sure, and he's the first spider Man
is voiced by one of the Chris.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Is Chris Pine?

Speaker 4 (12:42):
What is he?

Speaker 1 (12:43):
And the other ones?

Speaker 3 (12:45):
He's He's Marvel.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
He's the only one. He's the only Chris. He's in DC,
He's in one of them.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
Don't do that.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
He just Bayton switched to me. I knew every actor
named Chris was in one of the universe versus the Law,
It's like, how can he be breaking the law? Okay?
Chris Pine is Steve in Wonder Woman. Yes, got it? Okay,
I'm good to contain you.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
I don't know why you're yelling at me on my birthday. Okay.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Also, post Malone has a large he's a huge plot.
This is the movie that made you a post Malone fan.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
That's true, It's true.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
We meet this blonde spider Man and then we meet
Miles Morales. He is going to middle school, private school
in Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
He likes art, he likes post Malone, loves post Malone.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
He doesn't know the words to the song. He chats
with this girl in his science class whose name is
she calls it herself Gwanda. I don't quite know why
that happens. I don't know why she doesn't just say
my name is Gwen, because he wouldn't know who Spider
Gwen is.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Well, but there are Spider Man comics in his universe,
so maybe the character Gwen Stacy exists does maybe, But
also it's like if you if I meet someone named Gwen,
I'm not like, you're a fictional character like that. Maybe
she seems like maybe she's not giving him enough credits.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Right, I guess that all those comics do because we
see imagery of the He reads them and he has.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Them, so I'm assuming that he like would know who
Gwen Stacey was, But why would he think that anyone
named Gwen was just automatically? So I think she's really
underestimating his intelligence.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah, yeah, I guess that clears that up. Okay, So
he talks to her. He goes to his uncle's apartment.
They go into like an abandoned subway line.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Right, And he's got a cool uncle. And you can
tell he's cool because he he's not in a committed
relationship and he has a punch bag and his studio apartments.
I love how cool aunts and uncles are like just
visually established in movies. It is always if any of

(15:15):
our listeners have any good examples of like cool aunts
and uncles and their sweet apartments, it's it's basically always
their apartment. Right, We're just like, oh, this person answers
to no one. They've got framed posters like cool on uncle.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Shit, Yeah right, okay, so cool uncle, cool bachelor uncle.
They go into this abandoned Someway line area and paint
some graffiti, and this is where Miles gets bitten by
this crazy looking spider.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, cute spider. It's very cute spider forty two right,
Like it's a label. I'm sure that's a reference to something,
and I don't know. I have no idea what it is.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
So he gets bitten by this spider, and then the
next day he wakes up, he feels kind of weird.
He's like, did I go through puberty? My pants don't
fit a lot?

Speaker 1 (16:02):
And you've seen it in five different movies. He's Spider Man,
but he's confused.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
He doesn't know it yet.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
The webs are come. But you can't say that ever
in the movies except in the James Cameron's Oh God,
the iconic James Cameron script when he explicitly says it's
come yeah, if.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Only, and then he bumps into Gwanda or Wanda whatever.
He thinks her name is from Class Why by Hailey Steinfeldt,
and he gets his hand stuck in her hair and
he's like, what the what am I Spider Man or what?
And then he goes to investigate what's going on, goes
back to the old subway, sees the Spider and he's like,

(16:44):
wait a minute, this is not normal. And then while
he's there, he discovers actual Spider Man. He's fighting the
Green Goblin.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
The Green Goblin is not William H. Macy in correct world.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Yeah, it's a literal gobliny giant goble.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Kind of just like a robody kind of guy, right,
Like he looks like a robot.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Well he's not the robot. He's like just this like
giant reptilian monster with like a tongue that he's more.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Like abstract, I mean, he's like more like an actual monster, yeah,
than like a man, right, just dressed up like a monster.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Yes, and then Miles and Spiderman cross paths and Spider
Man's spider sense goes off. He's like, wait a minute,
you're like me, I can show you the ropes on
how to be Spider Man. Let me just go destroy
this big collider machine first and defeat this bad guy
named Fisk. Hell yeah, but then before all that can happen,

(17:44):
Fisk powers up the super collider that opens up all
these Yeah, no explanation needed.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
But oh it's Willem Dafoe. What the fuck am I talking? Sorry?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
What did you say, William?

Speaker 4 (17:57):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (17:58):
I didn't even catch that.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
I can use Willem Dafoe, William age Macy and Steve
BUSHEMI constant.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
I mean they all are like character actors who like.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
They audition for the same parts a lot.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Probably William H. Macy though, is like he's got like
a kind face. And then Willem Dafoe, it always usually
plays a villain because he's got like a a more
sinister look.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
About willmhe Macy in trouble because of that whole college admission.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
So yeah, I mean his wife, his wife. I don't
know how complicit he is in it.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Well, I guess it depends on Actually it's kind of
a loose less because if he's not involved.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
That just means he's not very involved in this children's lives.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
So he's a bad father. Maybe he won't go to jail.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Sucks how the world works, oh wild. Anyways, so Fisk
powers up the collider, which opens up all these different
alternate dimensions, and then Fisk kills Spider Man. No, and
then the bad guys spot Miles, who was like lurking nearby,
and he has to make a run for it. And
then one of the bad guys, whose name is I

(19:03):
think Prowler, goes after Miles, but he manages to escape
and he's like, okay, fuck, Like, I have to be
Spider Man. The other Spider Man is dead, like everyone's
counting on me. I have to assume this role. But
he doesn't know how to do it. He's complicated jumping
off of buildings, he breaks the thumb drive that the

(19:24):
other Spider Man had given him, and he's like, I
don't know if I can do this. But just then
another Peter Parker shows up.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
What I know?

Speaker 1 (19:34):
This one is Jake Johnson.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Yes, yeah, and he is the amazing Spider Man ever
heard of him? He right, so he's from this alternate dimension.
He is older, his life is in shambles. He's divorced,
he's got a dad bod and we love that for him. Yeah,

(19:58):
we do.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
Now this.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Peter Parker is reluctant to get involved, but he eventually
agrees to team up with Miles, and then they go
to alkam X, which is like the science lab that
is responsible for creating the collider.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
And they need to go there.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
They have to download like the schematics or something so
that they can destroy the collider. And then that's where
we meet doc oc aka doctor Olivia Octavius, not Alfred Molina,
I know.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
But hell, we've gotta we gotta get him in the MCU.
There's a place for him there. Sure, it breaks my
heart that he's not canon.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
I know, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
I truly anyone else in the Raimi Spider Man movies
don't care, don't need you there. Yeah, but if anyone
has the gentle heart of Alfred Molinas doc ok rehearsing
for Filler on the roof, I mean, I swear to god,
did you see that video?

Speaker 5 (20:58):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Right, everyone tagged us in it is if you weren't
the person who brought that up on that episode, Oh,
I know, we're just like hello, oh god, it was
a blank check.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah yeah, and you know people just like, don't listen
to me anyways.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
Lets it's not.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
Your birthday, it's why Okay. So they have downloaded this
stuff from alchem X and dot coc is there, and
also the person who's there is Gwen, who we learned
what her actual name is, and she's another Spider person,
yet another alternate universe.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
It's so complicated, you know, And so they team up
with her.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
And this is where I stopped writing down what happens.
So now I'm just going from memory.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Baby, I mean, you've seen it nine hundred times.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Yeah, yeah, definite help, I'll help. Okay. Great. So then
they go to Aunt May's house.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
And May's Lily Tomlin.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
M hmmm.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
So that's great. Yeah, love that.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
I love that. Her nephew, Peter Parker is the one
who had just died. So they're like, hey, this is weird.
Our condolences also were from alternate universes. Can you help
us out? So they go into like the Spider Shed
and she's like, hey, meet these other Spider people. And
this is when we meet Spider Noir, Spider Ham, and

(22:33):
Penny Parker, who I don't know what her If she
has like a spider name, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
I think she might just be like a let me check,
let me check, I'll research cool.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
So we meet those Spider folk and they're great.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
They're all animated in different styles. This movie's so cool.
It's really exciting.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
And then they're all kind of figuring out, Okay, we
need to stop Fisk and his collider, but we need to.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Get the big square guy. He's played by Leave Schreiber,
got it.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, So they're trying to figure out, Okay, someone needs
to stay behind and turn off the collider after we've
gotten everyone to their respective alternate universe, and Miles is like, well,
I should be the one to do it, because this
is my dimension. I'm already here. I'll be the one
to stay behind. But he's not good at being Spider

(23:27):
Man yet, so they're like, we don't really trust you
to do this, right.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Oh, she played Penny Parker slash sp Dash dash dr.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Oh is that the name of her robot?

Speaker 1 (23:40):
I guess, like the robot that's an extension of her. Yeah, okay,
spdr got it.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
So Miles is like, fuck, I'm not a good Spider
Man yet and he leaves and broods a little bit.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
I mean, he's a teen. That's the best part about
Spider Man is he's moody.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah. And then and I think it's around this time
that he discovers that his uncle is actually the Prowler of.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
The Yeah, I was not aware of the character the
Prowler before this me either.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
I don't think he's introduced in any of the other
Spider Man movies.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
Thank you, Spider Verse. Didn't know who Prowler was, and
you know, I guess.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
I mean now, yeah, oh yeah. Before that, there's a
big fight in Aunt May's house where the bad guys
are trying to get the thumb Drive back.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Aunt May is also not the helpless aunt that she
is an earlier incarnations with Spider Man. She is keeping
the Spike because in the world that Aunt May is
and in Miles's world, Peter Parker is dead and she's
mourning him. But she also has this Spider Bunker where
she does fucking science shit and it's great.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
It's great. Yes, I loved that. So yeah, they the
bad guys come, they fail in getting the thumb drive back,
and then Prowler dies because.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Really sad sad.

Speaker 5 (25:09):
I know.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
It reminded me of the Lion King oh with the
mufassa yeah, or the kids just like I'm sorry, emotional
and then the dying adult is like, it's all good,
You're awesome and then dies.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
And then Miles Morales goes and finds Timon and Poopa right.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
And then he grows. He comes of h with that
crazy that Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane. As much as I
love John mulaney, John Laney is basically doing an impression
of Nathan Lane for this character. Yeah, I think I
think he sounds super nice. I mean he kind of
naturally kind of sounds like Nathan Lane too. Sure, I
think for this character especially, I'm like, oh, he's good.

(25:52):
There's some some serious Tomon vibes ironically coming out of
this pig character commentary.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Because wait, timoone is the mirrorca Meerkat.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, wow, John and mullaney or he's a I'm gonna
read a five thousand word piece on Medium about like
the brilliant subtlety of John Mulaney's performance. That's Spider him.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
The world needs it. Okay, So then story what happens
in the story after this? So the uncle has died,
and then Myles is sad about it. There's like this
emotionally heavy moment between him and his dad. Ohever there's
a wall between them. And then the Spider people come
back and they're like, hey, okay, we're gonna go do
this thing because again you're not a good Spider Man

(26:41):
and now.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
You're like an emotional wreck right too. And there's that
great scene where he's like, you don't get it, and
they're like they all list the critical person in their
life they've lost, because that's the story, right, And then
he's like, oh, kiss you get it? There stand and
then they travelm in webs and then.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
The monologue that his dad gives sort of empowers him
to be the great man he's destined to become.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
The power of the love between father and son frees
him from the com webs and he goes and he
saves the day.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yep. So he goes back to Aunt May and he's like,
I'm ready to be Spider Man. She's like, great, here's
a suit, here's some tools.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
He's still a scientist. She basically is like the what's
that lady who's Edna in The Incredibles, except not annoying
because she's just like, oh right, she's because Edna is
a woman in stem but they try to make her
just seem like she's a costume designer. That's right.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
And she's also a voice by Brad Bird.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
So that wild. What a time to be alive? Can
I can I do a little industry inside her talk?

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Please?

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Okay? So I was at the ANNIE.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
Awards this year where spider where Spider Verse one fucking.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Every Aniwards are animated.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, it's like the animated Oscars. It's very boring, but
I was excited and uh so Spider Verse like completely
swept and like won every feature category. And Brad Bird
was there because I think he assumed that Incredibles two
is gonna sweep. Oh sure, and he looked really pissed,

(28:20):
where I'm like, it's just the Annie's Like, it's not
a big deal. But he lost and he.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Worked hard for it. But I lost.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
But why we should have talked?

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, what were you there for?

Speaker 1 (28:30):
I was nominated for a show I worked on.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
Hey what shows it to people? Everyone?

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Uh log onto Facebook dot com and launch a show
called human kind of It was. It was a great
series and it almost wanted Annie and then it was
canceled because life is unfair. But I think, you know,
I can relate with Brad Bird and a lot of
we're basically the same person.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
Didn't you also see Alfred Molina there.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
I did see Alfurd Leina there and I was too
great to talk to him. That is really exciting this.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
You had met him?

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, after he was on our podcast, literally two weeks later.
I was too scared and he I got another message
from him, not like a direct message. No, he went
in to record the robot chicken sketch that I wrote
for him last week, and they were like, guess who
wrote this? And he was like, oh my gosh, she's
all over the place.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
She starting to She's really closing in, isn't she?

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Anyways?

Speaker 3 (29:33):
All right, so what happens in the movie though I
don't know?

Speaker 4 (29:36):
Okay, So so he escapes because the power of love.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
He goes to aunt Ray, he gets his web shooters
and then he's ready to go and be a part
of the fight. He meets up with them in like
the it's basically Trump Tower Vortex. Yes, so there's like
this benefit going on. Fisk is Trump. He's got the
tower to prove it. And everything, and below that is

(30:01):
where the collider is colliding. And then you know, the
Spider gang is fighting doc Oc and the other bad guys,
and then Miles shows up and he's like I'm ready,
I'm here, let me help, and they're like, oh my god,
you're doing such a good job. And then the Spider
people return to their respective dimensions, and so it's up

(30:24):
to Miles and shut off the collider, and he does
do it, and then and then his dad is there,
who had, you know, feelings of animosity toward the idea
of Spider Man, but he's like, wait a minute, Spider
Man is actually a good guy who wants to do

(30:45):
good things right, And.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Then they're the one thing that was just like where
when Miles finally calls his dad and they very quickly
brush over his uncle's death, right, The dad is like, hey,
I don't know if you know this, but something with
your uncle, and then Miles is like, I know, and
he was like, okay, why are you coming home? Like

(31:10):
maybe that is how men process dead. I don't know,
it seemed pretty chill to me.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, it was, it was. And then Miles fully embraces
his new identity as Spider man and that is the
end of the movie.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
So it's such a good movie.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
I love it so much.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
I really really enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Let's take a quick break and we will come back
for the discussion. And we're back where to begin with
the discussion.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
I think it's interesting. I mean, if we're just starting
off from I mean, we've already established it's like it's
the most diverse inclusive superhero movie I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
I mean, probably aside from Black Panther.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
But beside from Black Panther, I mean, but in terms
of seeing like and this is like a no accortisms
of Black Panther, but you're seeing all types of people
in Spider Verse where I feel like it's the only
like the thing that hit for me is like, this
is the only semi realistic portrayal of like the makeup
of New York City, oh, that I've ever seen in

(32:25):
a movie, and it's a cartoon like the all white
portrayals of New York City that we've come across in
every rom com we've ever covered, and other movies, like
in action movies too, but just the all white New
York that never existed that is so persistent in movies
because of systemic racism. But it was really cool to

(32:47):
see such a like a diverse cast where you have
like a lot of people of color. Do we don't?
I guess there's a pig.

Speaker 5 (32:58):
Do you?

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Are there any queer characters in this not identifiably so
or even I think coded that way. So it's it's
a pretty but then there's no real sexuality at all
to speak of.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
I mean it's not. I mean, there is a little
bit of a love story, and I want to get
into that, right, but I have a few Gwen thoughts,
But in general like it. It is so cool to
see New York look actually represent or.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Miles has his mom's last name. His name is not
Miles Jefferson, it's Miles Morales.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
And we know what hit like, we know what both
of his parents do. We know a lot about his
home life, and you know when even when people of
color are the main character, you don't often get to
see their home life. When I'm thinking of fucking the
craft sure where the only black woman in the cast
is the only character you find out nothing about. And

(33:55):
it's also cool to see like a working class family
portrayed on screen, because that doesn't you know, It's like
there's all these really famous and sometimes even good kids
movies about vaguely wealthy white kids that live in gigantic
houses and have never had a problem and then they
get magical powers. You're just like, okay, but I mean,

(34:17):
his mom is a nurse, his dad is a cop.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah, and dad's name is Jefferson Davis, which is the
same name of the only president of the Confederate States
during the Civil War, which a lot of people have
pointed out. They're like, that's weird, but that is his
character's name.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
That can't have been an accident, And I'm very confused. Yeah,
so I didn't hear his full name set out lot.
I didn't realize that he had his mom's last name.
What a strange thing. But I mean his parents are together, Yeah,
I guess we don't know if they're married. Do we
know that they're married.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
I don't know if we know. Yeah, they might just
be partnered. But yeah, either way, Miles has his mom's
last name. She is LATINX And we see them speaking
Spanish together, Like it's rare that we see Spanish spoken
by a main character. Yeah, and in any movie really,

(35:15):
unless it's like a Spanish language film and not have
it like be.

Speaker 4 (35:21):
Super called attention to like it's yeah or landscape right
or like yeah, othered in some way where it's like Oka,
the others are speaking Spanish but we hear in America
speak English kind of thing, so like yeah, it was
like very normalized and very cool, which.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Again is New York exactly.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Like there's so like there are so many which which
is why it's like, you know, Miles Morales, the character
is such a cool thing for visibility because there's so
many kids like him and just who you know, the
world has never taken the time to portray in a
way that isn't patronizing or half baked or shitty. So

(35:59):
I mean, I love this families set up. I mean
there's always gonna be a weird feeling. I feel like
at this cultural.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
Moment of being like, I guess we like cops in
this movie, but that is that is how the story goes.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
I feel like that is also kind of like baked
into superhero lore as well in a way that's kind
of hard to escape or hasn't really been addressed. And
this is coming from someone who doesn't know the deep
history of superheroes. But like superheroes, I feel like.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
Are generally portrayed to be like allies to cops.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
I think so some superhero movies just sort of ignore
the like law enforcement exists at all.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
The other one that it seems stupid, and then superheros
are smart.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
The other main series that integrates police to a large
extent that I'm familiar with is Batman, and the cops
in that one are always like he's a Gilante and
I don't like it, and then there's always like Commissioner Gordon,
who's like his one ally, and then all the other ones.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, there's a lot of like good cops in across
superhero narratives, but it does sort of go the same
way where the end scene, even though there's like another
level to it because it's literally a father and son talking,
but it is like Spider Man is an ally of
the NYPD. Okay, but that I mean he's kind of

(37:32):
like that in all the iterations of Spider Man. I
feel like in the Sam Raimi ones, the cops are
made out to look kind of just like less competent
than Spider Man and like jealous of him.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
Yeah, I think that's right. It's been a while since
I've seen any of those ones, but yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Anyways, someone link us to what I'm sure is a
very well written essay about how the MCU superheroes relate
to the cops. But again, it's like seeing a working
class family from New York portrayed on screen in a
way that is really realistic, Like their apartment is realistic,
versus like the wide open spaces, Oh.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
My god, like the millions bazillion dollars like soho lofts.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
That you see and like all these or like I'm
thinking of like this, like Carrie from Sex and the
City would literally be starving to death if that remained realistic,
Like she writes one column a week, right, like you
can't afford to live hunt like you can't. You're waiting
forty five days for your freelancers check to come in. Anyways,
love the setup and the visibility in terms of like

(38:35):
race and class.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
Especially because like Miles is like he's basically a socialist,
where he's like, I don't want to go to this school.
It's elitist, Like I want to go to my public school.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Well, what it's referencing it is like the real setup
of New York public schools that is like very it's
the way public schools work in New York is weird.
Where there was like an intensely reported story of it.
They came out a couple of weeks ago that basically
there are these like magnet schools that are publicly funded

(39:07):
but are kind of like elitist that it looks like
the school that Miles gets transferred to is based on
and the way that you get entry into one of
those like public plus schools is by taking a test,
and the dad references like you've tested in. So people
take the test and then they're put into a lottery

(39:28):
because there's only so much space. But there's still a
lot of systemic racism in the way those schools are sorted,
and like all these magnet schools are supposed to be
this big public win for public education, and there's almost
no black and Latino kids who get out of the lottery,
as it were fucked. So that scene I was just like, oh, woll,

(39:49):
like someone did their homework on New York public schools.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Because he's walking by his old middle school, which seems
very diverse. Yeah, and then you see the scene where
he's you know, entering this magnet.

Speaker 6 (40:01):
Esque school and it's fancy predominantly and it's white, and
it's yeah, like there's I believe it was a New
York Times story that came out by the time you
hear this will come out about a month ago.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
But it's a fascinating look at how like these public
systems are established to be for the greater good and
yet are still so very racist and not inclusive at all.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
Any other thing you want to say about that in
terms of like diversity inclusion.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Oh no, I mean I think that that is like
this move in addition to just being a good movie,
like that's this movie is like great strength and distinction
from the landscape it comes out, And I mean it's
really this movie and Black Panther that you get any
level of diversity that isn't extremely tokenized.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Definitely. Yeah, yes, huge strength for the movie. Let's talk
about the women.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Let's talk about we mean it takes a while for
this movie to include women in the plot in a
meaningful way. I thought, yes, because I think for the
first half, unless I'm missing something, you meet a mom,
you meet someone that is introduced to us as a

(41:25):
love interest, because that's originally how Gwen Stacy's introduced in
all of these stories. Yes, and eventually, I feel like
it's not until you get to Olivia Octavius that women
become a structural part of the plot. Agree, And it
takes a while for us to get there.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah, at least a half hour, if not more. Yeah, Yeah,
I completely agree. Up until then, it's just you know,
scenes with you know, him and aid Man dead or yeah,
him in acting with the Spider Man running away from
the bad guys.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
And I do think that it's and I don't want
to be too critical of this movie because I like,
I really love it, and I'm excited to talk about
the relationships between men that I thought were really cool
in this thing. But it does it, you know, you
do kind of notice and it sort of betrays the
fact that this was written by men and directed by men,

(42:22):
and Amy was directed by Amy Pascal's emails of course,
she never her emails never get credit for They're sentient
and Incredibles from twenty thirteen directed so many movies. But yeah,
I mean, the main focus, even within the family is
there's a lot of screen time devoted to Miles' relationship

(42:44):
with his dad. There's a lot of screen time devoted
to Miles's relationship with his uncle. There's really not that
much of Miles and his mom where we know what
she does, which is more than most movies give us,
but there's that's not where the emphasis is and the
family dynamic.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
The only thing we really see is a scene where
like she's doting on him right before he's about to
leave for school. That's really about it. Yeah, there's so
much like.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Per see the long scene with Miles and his dad. Yes,
and yeah, so that like that scene in a movie
with a lot of strengths.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
You're like, man, I mean I've given this a bit
of thought. And on one hand, I'm like, yeah, why
couldn't we see a more significant and like more emotional
impactful storyline between him and his mom? And it's only
really given to him and his dad and then also
him and his uncle, which you know means that less

(43:41):
time and attention is devoted to the mum character. But also,
I mean, you know, he's a uh I know, I
don't want to like sound like I'm defending you know,
the absence of women in a story. And I've never
been a thirteen year old old boy, so I don't

(44:01):
really know but I think it kind of stands to
reason that like a boy of that age is going
to look up to the male figures in his life
and you know, try to learn from them, you know,
learn how to be a man and all this stuff,
which can be problematic. But the fact that at least

(44:23):
his dad is a very supportive figure in his life.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
I just think that there's and I guess this is
I mean, for everyone who's gonna I mean, this is
a major an episode, so we can actually be more
critical without being afraid of people. But I mean, there's
a version of this script where instead of creating this
uncle figure to become you know, who is like this

(44:48):
positive influence in his life and teaches him the lighter
side of life and how to have fun, and that
you know, his dad is you know, the sort of
rigidity of his dad, isn't the only way to live
could be played by his mom instead of like creating
another male character to fill that void. But that said,
I mean or an aunt or not right right, Like

(45:10):
it's I don't think that those nests. But but then
I don't really know because because one of the things
I do like about this movie is it allows male
characters to be vulnerable with other male characters in a
way that seems pretty healthy and productive. And that is
something that I think young people and people in general
should see where there's like such a strong like it's

(45:32):
like part of the core relationship of Miles and his
dad that his dad is like I love you, say
it back, like, which you don't see between fathers and
sons a lot in movies because there's, you know, that
cultural sticky thing that we can't seem to get rid of.
His come webs. There's this cultural com web that like

(45:55):
men can't express their emotions to each other, right, and
that there is something wrong for Amanda ta another man
that they love each other. I feel like there's so
many examples of me growing up where my male cousins,
my male friends when they were talking to other boys,
they would couch everything really nervously and no homo and

(46:16):
they would write like where they would just like there's
that association that any guy expressing affection or emotion at
all to any other guy that isn't like anger or
making fun of women was inherently sexual.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Yeah, and this movie we're just like a sign of
weakness kind.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Of yeah, totally, And so in that way, like Miles
and his relationship with the adult men in his life
is good and is good to see because you see Miles,
you know, tell his daddy loves him, and watch that
relationship change over time, and you see the closeness of
the uncle and the nephew that is like, I just

(46:57):
wish that we got more of the mom.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
I don't know, Yeah, I think maybe a better version
of this is if Uncle Aaron was actually Aunt Aaron
aunt erin you are, and then she and Miles's dad
are brother and sister, the same twist can happen. And
we know that women can be villains in this world
because we see Doc Uk.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well maybe that's too many female villains that well, but
then we have female.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Super exactly so it kind of balances out. And then
if we have a stronger relationship between or just a
little bit more screen time devoted to Miles's mom, then
we get the balance of like, oh, like there's and
that's not just all the women in his family are evil.
He's got a very caring and supportive mother.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
And that could be accomplished in a scene like we
just had one scene that was just the two of
them that had an impact on the plot, and wasn't
just like, oh, his mom, because I feel like that's
how mom characters are used a lot where even if
you do get a scene with them, it rarely results
in any plot. She's sort of like, well, he's loved.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
An easy fix could be because we get a sense
of how how Miles his dad doesn't like, you know,
the vigilante superhero that is Spider Man. If we see
a scene where his mom is like, oh, I actually
think Spider Man's cool.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
And well she's she's a Spider Man's stand.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Yeah, what if she has like Spider Man merch and stuff? Yeah,
and then does this, oh my god, the Spider verse
that actually sounds like the Collider I don't know if
if you listeners can hear that anyway, So that would
impact the plot because a lot of his kind of

(48:45):
internal struggle comes from his dad not liking Spider Man.

Speaker 4 (48:49):
He likes, Yeah, like Miles already likes Spider Man.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Seems like every kid likes Spider Man. So like, what
if Miles' mom likes Spider Man and that's something they
could bond over or mourn over, because when he dies
in the sure in Miles is there's more ways to
include her, and I love I love the idea of
an aunt instead of an uncle. Yeah, this stories the
uncle time.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Anyways, if you're listening Phil Lord Chris.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
Well, I was like, wait a minute, someone said I
was hot. Better tune in.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Yeah, please everyone at Phil Lord and let him know
how I feel. Yeah, yeah, I know. I agree with you,
even though I mean it's I loved. I love the
family story and I love how much I love the
family stuff. I wish that women had been included more
meaningfully in the family stuff. Agree, that's all.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
I think the same could also be said for the
Spider Team.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
I agree, Wow, I completely agree. I think how many
people are in people animals are in the Spider Team
total is like eight six six. Two women we've.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Got Gwen Stacy and Penny Parker are the women we've got.
But Spider Man, We've got Fick Spider Man not does
fix Spider Yeah, Spider Noir, Spider ham Miles. Did I
list all four? Just there, very distracted by you? Did
this is a Collider? Did men outnumber the women.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
And there's only two people of color? And well, I
guess we don't technically know Spider Noir or Spider Ham
but they're voiced by white men. Yes, So it is
like two out of six in terms of women and
men and people of color to white people or at
least actors.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Right, And this is probably like an adaptation issue where
there weren't like other comic series written with a woman
as the lead because they pulled from existing characters.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
And I think it kind of shows and that's like,
I don't know how that's avoidable because it's like, yeah,
Peter Parker has been a white kid or adult for
a long until Miles Morales, so that like it's kind
of hard to navigate around that and the same thing.
I mean, And one of the problems that I had

(51:13):
with Spider Gwen is she's presented very classically feminine and
her I mean, everyone's costume is different, but hers is
different in a very particular way. She has a purple,
pinky streak that goes behind her and it's not that
there's anything wrong with that, And it's so hard to
like have this conversation in a way that doesn't seem

(51:33):
like we're demonizing traditional femininity, Like, right, if that's your thing,
who cares that's my thing?

Speaker 4 (51:38):
A lot of the time, but it is like the
standard way that feminized characters.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Put a bow on them, make them pink.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
And eyes right, and they're like, it's girl Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
I would also argue that her fight choreography and the
way she moves is ballet feminine.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
It looks like ballet a lot of it.

Speaker 3 (52:00):
And she even says at one point, like when they're
all grilling Miles and they're like, can you punch a
bunch of bad guys? Can you rewire a fucking main frame?
Blah blah blah, Gwen asks can you fight with the
grace of a skilled dancer or something like that. So
she's all about, like this what appears to be like
a very feminine fight style, which we've talked about another episode.

(52:22):
I mean, it sucks, but all the same, the women
who do exist within the Spider Team are just as
competent of fighters as all.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
The men, for sure, and they're doing equal work.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
In equal work, Penny seems to have like a specialty
relating some kind.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Of computer tech girl. I'd be interested in what our
Japanese American listeners thought of her portrayal, because it did
seem like there were a lot of stereotypes being put into,
like she comes out of this like anime like world,
which I don't really know, Like I just like don't

(53:02):
have the perspective to have a strong opinion on that,
but I could understand why people would have a strong
opinion about the way that, Like this is the Japanese
American Spider Woman, and she's portrayed in a very particular way,
just like the American Spider Woman is portrayed in a
very particular way that I don't really care for.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
Right, Yeah, I am similarly curious as to what listeners
think about that, because I.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Yeah, I was like, that is seems like a lazy choice.
But I also am I mean, I'm sure that that
is an adaptation issue as well. I'm reading in Wikipedia
dot org I ever heard of it that. I guess
that Penny Parker they definitely wanted an Asian American spider person.

(53:48):
I guess they considered using another spider woman who's Korean
American named silk Okay, but they decided her powers weren't
as cool, and they went with Penny. Oh, it's like
bring them both it and them both stopping.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Yeah, again, it's an adaptation. You can make changes from
the source materials.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
I feel strongly about Spider Gwen with that, especially like
they did not it was not integral to the plot
for her to look move like that, right.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
Yeah, exactly that said, she does save Miles and Peter
Parker from doc OC. She does in the beginning, but
then she needs to be saved at the end. She's
like about to fall into like the collider beam and
then Miles has to jump in after her and save her.
So but at least it's like a parody in terms

(54:40):
of like women not constantly being damseled.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is like it's
so weird how things change slightly over time because the
way she's written, I'm like, this sounds like a woke
dude wrote this character, and they like tried their best.
They're like, we're not going to damsel her constantly, but
there is still like little things. So you're just like,
I just wanted to fix that where you know, like

(55:04):
there there there is that implied flirtation between her and
Miles the whole time, and thank god they didn't. I
was really worried they're gonna try to shoehorn a kiss
and at the end they don't but they it's they're
setting up a kiss at some point in the future.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Perhaps, yeah, although I mean the way.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
He talks to her for the first time is is
because like he wants, like his uncle said, put your
hand on a girl's shoulder, and like, oh, that's how
we knew he was a villain. But he's like, put
a hand in a girl's shoulder and like be smooth.
And it's played in the movie like, oh, he's just
an awkward teenager. But it's like, no, movie, come on,

(55:47):
that's something that could have been so easily done differently
or had her call him out more about it, because
what happens in the movie is he got compowers now, right,
So he's a little bit sticky sticky, and so he's
trying to impress Gwen. He's hearing his thoughts out loud.
He's freaked out. He remembers his uncle's advice to like
put your hand on a girl's shoulder to be cool,

(56:08):
and he does that to Gwen, and his hand sticks
to her hair because of his spider com and then
he basically starts whipping her around with his hand and
she's like, oh fuck, and then you cut too. She
has to get a haircut because it's sticky hands, and
he says like, nice to meet you, and we're supposed
to be like tea heat. But he doesn't apologize.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
And apologize for their coumb No, they don't.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
They just put it wherever they want.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
Literally do.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
It's disgusting. It stops now. But I mean, and he
never asks to put his hand on her shoulder, and
I think if you had, she probably wouldn't have said yes, right,
I mean, based on that conversation.

Speaker 4 (56:51):
Yeah, there is.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
There's a whole scene where Uncle Aaron is basically teaching
Miles how to, you know, give what's probably usually an
unwanted touch to his peers and the.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Process of wearing down that is sort of being described.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
So yeah, we can see that as ooh, that's gross.
That's a gross thing to teach a young boy.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
I guess the fact that it ends horribly is.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
But it doesn't though, because she still wants to be
his friend and they still end up being like BFFs
and he never has to apologize, and I just feel
like it's not the worst thing in the world. But
he doesn't apologize, and she ends up like having a
crush on him.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
Anyways, I don't think she has a crush on him.
I think she like sets some pretty clear boundaries of like.
But I'm also like really bad at identifying romance when
I see it, because I would be.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
Really surprised if they made another one of these movies
and that didn't continue and intensify.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
I would be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't happen, because
I mean, yeah, that is I think that is probably
the way it's being set up. But also I would
argue that the language that they use is like, I
don't really do friends anymore, and he's like, well, if
you decide to do friends again, like I could open
up a spot for you.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Like it's always in terms of he like accepts the boundary. Yeah,
I just I don't know. I think that like saying
that their relationship isn't flirtatious in nature like it so is.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
At the beginning, Yes, I would, I feel like, I
don't know, toward the end, I feel like it's strictly platonic.
But again, I'm maybe just.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Not reading that right. I guess I just disagree on that. Yeah,
And I just think that that's a kind of a
waste of Gwen's limited time on screen is having a flirtation.
We've seen that in Spider Man a million times. Don't
need to see it again. Didn't need her to. I mean,
I guess they both rescue each other, so it kind

(58:53):
of evens out. But I just wanted a little bit
more for the way Gwen is portrayed, and then for uh,
for Penny Parker, just to see more for I feel
like you see the least from her out of everyone,
her and Noir.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Yeah, you sort of see the least of well, the
three like Spider people who are introduced later on, I'd
say they're all equal parts. Not that important, right, But
Penny's computer friend breaks at some point, Like.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
I don't care, but I'm sad.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Yeah it did. The movie did make it seem like, look,
how sad we all are at this, and we're like, well,
we didn't really get to know Penny's character, So I'm
not very emotionally affected by.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
That, right.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Yeah, it does mean that the one woman who is
a person of color who belongs to the Spider Gang
doesn't does get much attention paid.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
To her, right, So that's the Spider team, that's it.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
And it's also I mean, I was reminded of The
Avengers in this where there is like an ensemble team
of superheroes, but the men are largely driving the story.
The women don't have their own movie. This is Miles's movie,
and you know, hopefully maybe we'll get off like a
Penny Parker spin off or a Gwen's Stacy spin off,

(01:00:18):
but maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
I mean, but the main focus of the friendship inside
of this Spider team is Peter Parker and Miles Morales. Yes,
that is the core friendship. And I think if we
look at the friendship between Peter Parker and Miles Morales
and the friendship between Gwen Stacy and Miles Morales, there
are some gendered differences, but the friend I mean, the
friend of between Peter and Miles, Like, I don't really
have any issue with it. I think it's like a

(01:00:42):
cool example of things I wish we saw more in
like female driven narratives of mentorship because that is like
the key to anything happening is and so it is
cool to see it, like both Peter Parker's take on
Miles as a you know, student kind of in this

(01:01:06):
like almost karate kid kind of way of like they
teach him the ways of the Spider and the comwebs,
and they sort of form that teacher mentor relationship, and
then you get the natural end of that relationship, which
is like the student has exceeded the powers of the
teacher and the teacher must learn to let go.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
And then he does, and he goes back to being
fixed Spider Man in normal Spider Man world or I
guess original Spider Man world.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
I mean, well, that is weird because he goes back
to a world where Coca Cola is called Coca cola.
The world that Miles lives in is called Coca Soda.
So it's like, it's not quite our universe.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
It's it's a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
There's also a Seth Rogan movie. I don't know if
you caught that, but they're all right when all the
Spider people like bounce into Times Square from their respect dimensions.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Seth Rogen exists in every multiverse.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
S post her for a movie called Hold Your Horses,
and then it says like starring Seth.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Rogen, glad that Seth Rogan got an appearance in his
five hundredth movie this year. I'm exhausted.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
Anyway, Let's take another break and we will come right back,
and we are back.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Can we talk about Octavius? Yeah? I liked her. We
don't really know that much about her personally. Her friends
call her live, her friends call her live. That's basically always.
I mean, she's an ambitious woman in stem who hates
Spider Man, which I think we're sort of just taking
it face value because we're like, oh, Doc Kok always
hates Spider Man. Where uh if we go to the

(01:02:54):
alpha Molina interpretation please of Doc Cok. You know, it's,
first of all, I'm not saying that Catherine Hahn did,
but you know, the golden standard has been said.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Sure, and no one can reach it except for our.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Except for letting him reprise the role. Right. But I
do think that there is a distinct difference, and maybe
there just wasn't the real estate and the filmmakers are
kind of assuming, like, well, you know, he's you know
or she in this case like Doc Cock cakee spider Man.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
Duh.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
But but in Spider Man two two thousand and four,
we find out explicit reasons why Docock hates Spider Man,
and there is more of a relationship between Doc Cock
and Spider Man, and we find out about Doc Cock's
personal life. Yeah, sort and a kind of like fridging
in a definitely friging narrative of his wife. His wife

(01:03:52):
gets killed and he, you know, he's tortured by his
own technology, and he's possessed by his own technology, and
there's there's just a lot there, beautifully. And while I
like Olivia Octavius, she fills the role a villain needs
to fill, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
She's not characterize nearly as much as like fisk Is
or as you know, or ass doc oc. But I
guess or is the or is what is the name
of the uncle villain the Prowler?

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
The Prowler. I feel like there is a version where
you can almost write Octavius out of this version. The
reason she needs to be there is because she has
the technology to build the fucking whatever that makes the multiverse.
But outside of that, what purpose does she serve in
this world besides to carry out the scientific task? Because

(01:04:43):
I feel like Prowler gets all the parts of the
of a villain that we really like, which is like
personal connection to the protagonist, a struggle between the two
of them, like things they have in common, things they
don't have in common, and that just doesn't exist for
octavious at all. We're just like dococ hate Spider Man,
and so she hates all the Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Yeah, so I feel like that there is I guess
we're just we're so used to doc Cock being like
a crucial player in the Spider Verse because of what
we've seen in Spider Man two. In this thing, she
carries out that very specific function of having created the
collider and that's all we But the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Other two villains, we know a lot about their personal life. Fisk,
we know his wife, yeah, and his son and how
he lost them, an ego and all that shit, and
he's a big square and he's sad. We know all that.
We get that in the flashback sequence with Probably. We
know who he is to the protagonist. We know why
this relationship is difficult and why it's so sad to
lose him. But it's I feel like they kind of

(01:05:45):
were like all female rubit of doc Cog and then
just sort of didn't do anything with it, Like we
don't know anything about.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
Her, well, we don't know anything about I don't know
this is a name Scorpion or something. There's another villain
who's like in the Bad Guy Gang. We know next
to nothing about and then like the Green Goblin, we
don't know. I think it feels like she is just
sort of like an ancillary character who is familiar to us,
so we're like, oh, we know her. I mean, I

(01:06:11):
know what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
And I just feel like it's kind of gender swap
be to make the move of gender swapping a character
and then not doing anything with it. Sure, especially if an.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
Original character was so deeply characterized, Like it almost feels
like a we gender swapped it so you wouldn't see
it coming kind of thing. It did feel like that,
like kind of that corny where it's be twist where
they're like the like I mean, if we go if
you go further back and enough, like the doctor was
a woman like that kind of like you're supposed to

(01:06:45):
be like, oh, that's not Alfred Moleyna. I assume well
that there's a line in the movie where Peter Parker
is God, this fucking is so distracting, its relentless Yeah,
where Peter Parker is like laying out the plan whenever
they get to alchem X, and he's like, all right,

(01:07:05):
step one infiltrate the lab, step two, find the leads.
They do do that? And then Myles is like, that
was like the lady and the scientists.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Oh cool.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
He's like, I need to re examine my personal biases
because you just assumed that the scientist would be a man,
didn't you, Peter Well, I.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Mean, to be fair, and the Jake Johnson Peter Parker
universe doc Cock is Alfred Molina. Uh so we have
to assume that that cartoon spider Man knows Alfred Willina
personally and maybe even saw him performed.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
Yeah, I mean probably, yeah, probably, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
I mean I don't really have anything to say about
the Doccock character other than like it was cool that
they you know, like, I don't think there's any ethical
issue with them gender swapping that character. It just felt
like it was done in lieu of you know, she's
supposed to be a more prominent villain than the Scorpion guy, Like,
we don't know anything. I feel like we almost don't
know anything about the Scorpion guy kind of for a reason.

(01:08:00):
But you know, she's the first villain that we really meet, yeah,
in Earnest, and a big deal is made of her
reveal and then we just don't And then my friends call.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
Me live right. Yeah. Well, more a little more on
that is that we've talked in various other episodes on
action movies where there seems to be a trend where
men who are usually the heroes, the action heroes, when
they're fighting, there's usually not women for them to fight.

(01:08:35):
They're usually fighting other men. Yeah, and if they are
fighting women, they're always like, can I hit a woman,
even if she's trying to kill me? And so we've
had different discussions on various episodes about that there tends
to be this thing. It's like, well, so that we
don't have to like even broach this subject, Let's just

(01:08:58):
make sure that men are only fighting men in this movie, Doc,
Dog poses a serious threat. You know, she is trying
to kill the Spider people. Yeah, she has these mechanical
arms that can cause a lot of damage, and we
understand that she's a dangerous adversary. We see men fighting her,
punching her in the face, you know, like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
And it not being a gender thing. It's being a fight,
right movie.

Speaker 4 (01:09:24):
Yeah, And that is cool and the way and in
sort of in contrast to our annoyance with how Gwen's
fighting is stylized, uh doc doc stylizing isn't you know
femed up?

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
No, And anyway, Nora is her costume. She's basically wearing
the same thing that icon Alfred Molina war.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
I mean a long coat along a trench coat.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
Yeah, listen, Doc Dog wears a trench coat. That's cannon.
If you don't like it, watch another movie. I don't
like to say it's a trench coat movie. Yeah. I
just wish that there was more there for her. We
just we just don't know how how Doc Hawk feels
about Miles Morales. We just know that she hates the
entity that is Spider. She'll she'll kill any Spider person.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
So I did the prejudice there against spider people?

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Why are we talking about this? What is going on
with the octopi and the spiders? They both got a legs? God?

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
Maybe that she's like, I'm the only eight leg eight
leg yeah, so screw.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Us A wild storyline.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:10:38):
So, I just.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
I just only want that movie where it's like octopus
legs get along.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
That's a good I.

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):
Mean, plenty of two legged people can't get along.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
So wow, Caitlyn Deep a birthday lesson, a birthday lesson
from our had it into her Jesus years, she started
to really impart some I'm thirty bitch, I'm thirty three.
You really have to start giving some christ like insights this.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
Year, Oh my god. Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Anyway, Aunt May was one of my favorite surprises in
the movie of Like, it's hard not to be critical
of the way that character is written in the original
story where she is just a nice old lady and
we love that for her, but she's completely weak. She's
i think in multiple movies she is damsel.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Oh yeah, stolen by you know, captured by the villain.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
She's damseled by by Alfred Molina.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
He has that great anecdote about that scene where I
guess they were on set and he was holding her
in his claw and she's, you know, like the actress
was older, and she was like kind of uncomfortable and
kind of annoyed, and she just like turned to him
and she's just like, you know, I went to Juliard
and she was like, oh, I'm sorry, which is really funny.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
But yeah, I mean, she's constantly damseled and or just
sort of like oblivious a lot of the time, where
she doesn't see why aren't you home?

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
And is so is so I mean even if you
compare her to Uncle Ben in the Samaraimi movies, like
Uncle Ben was at least cogent and knew what was
going on, but like aunt May always needed Peter's help,
whether it was financial, whether it was to save her life,
like she was very rarely.

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):
Well, uncle Ben dies before or anything happens.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
But I mean, we get to know Uncle Ben a
little bit in the first movie where he's he is
like very masculine, and it seems more involved in Peter's
like formation than Aunt May is, or that's what's like implied.
And then ann May seems sort of like and there
are moments where she gets to, you know, do her thing,

(01:12:57):
but you know, she's a grieving wife, she's a maternal caretaker,
and she's constantly damseled. But in this version Watch Out Baby,
she's a scientist who makes spider weapons, and that is great.
I'm like, I almost didn't really need to know that

(01:13:18):
much more cause it and you get that cool moment
where in aunt May's universe Peter Parker's dad and in
Peter Parker's universe, Aunt May is dead, so they're both
seeing each other but not and you're like, oh, that's nice.
And then she's like, anyways, Spider Lab, Yeah, she.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Knows exactly what's gone. She's like, let me guess you're
from another dimension. Let's go, let's deal with this shit.

Speaker 4 (01:13:42):
She's almost like fucking Michael Caine and Batman, where she's
just like badass older.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Person who has all the gear. Mm hmm, what is
his name?

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
The butler Alfred Alfred, not to be confused with Alfred Molina.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
We should do the Batman movies at some point. That
would be fucking what a trip that would be.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
Oh I should have mentioned this earlier. But in the
newer reboot of Spider Man with Tom Holland, the version
of Aunt May that we see in those movies is
she's hot. That's her thing. She's played by Marissa Tommy,
and it's important that you know that she's hot and
that is I like.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
This choice way that I got. Sometimes with these movies,
like superhero movies in particular, you can just like hear
the executive focus groups just like just like totally miss
really like no, no, no, what if I May? What
if you are a fucker? You're like, no, that's what
are you talking about. There's so few roles for older

(01:14:45):
women Anyways, I loved Lily Tomlin's Aunt Ma character totally,
yet like she's not a main character, not a lot
of attention is drawn to her, I think for plot reasons,
but they just like that's good adaptation. Is like take
a character that people are familiar with and like turning
them up and modernizing them and making them cool and

(01:15:06):
useful to the plot. Yes, so I liked that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:09):
Agree, Mary Jane's there, she's still his wife.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
In this way.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
Yeah. Yeah, we don't see a ton of her.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
What happened to her theater career?

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
Oh yeah, Ah, she is a fucking Fisk Tower at
that benefit dinner, and it's like, can't you see that
that guy is mean?

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
Yeah, I'm like you were Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
That would be like bouse, that would be like if
she went.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
To like Donald Trump Trump from Tower House. So yeah,
she's kind of I mean, it makes sense that she's sidelined.
But but there there is a version of that character
where they could have done something cool with her like
they did with Aunt May and didn't just present her
as like grieving lady with nice hair.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):
Maybe we'll see some of that in school perhaps.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
So, I mean, you don't hire Zoe Kravitz for no reason, right, right,
She's great.

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
I love her well. I think that was about all
I had to say about one of my new favorite movies.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
I thought this movie is an absolute blast and is
some of the best, the best you're gonna get in
terms of representation in a modern movie. It's I thought
it was weird that there wasn't any space made for
a queer character where there are so many characters. It's

(01:16:31):
not a particular I mean, it's not a romantic movie,
but it would have. It just seems like, I mean,
if there's future installments, this is a very inclusive movie,
and that's in the DNA of what the movie is,
so like, you know, make a.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
Little more sure.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:16:46):
That reminds me though. One of the very few things
that we do know about MJ in this universe is
that she voted for Docopher Peter be In addition to that,
at least for Peter B. Parker's the MJ. Johnson Jake Johnson.

(01:17:07):
She wants children, so she's given a very like right
and then maternal boring, and he's like, and that's why
our marriage fell apart, because I wasn't ready to have kids.
And then by the end, He's like, wait a minute,
I'm proud of Miles Morales. Maybe I do want children.
Oh my god, my spider come loaded. Let's make Spiner

(01:17:27):
me and you know, having children is great. Let's perpetuate
the species. But that's the real thing that we know about.
We don't need any more white women who voted for
Donald Trump reproducing. Okay, thank you, but yeah, other than that,
it does a fairly good job, at least compared to

(01:17:50):
the Spider Man franchise as a.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Whole knocking down the apartment.

Speaker 3 (01:17:55):
They are hurting someone. I do not know what they're
doing there. Again, listeners, apologies if this has been an
annoying episode to listen to because of the machinery that's
happening next door. But there's simply nothing we can do
about it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
There's nothing we can do about it. This is listen.

Speaker 4 (01:18:17):
Tell your friends to keep plunging to the Matreon and
we'll get a mansion o liven.

Speaker 3 (01:18:23):
Okay, yeah, we'll all find some secluded house in the
where you get.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
A tree house. You get a really nice tree house
that seems realistic. Someday I think I want I want
to We need to just dig. They don't charge to dig.
It does sound like a crazy conspiracy went wild. We
said that can't we just need to buy a five

(01:18:52):
foot square foot digging all right? Well that was that
was that, Hey, what are under other people's houses? Right?
And then just like they don't know?

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
I've been reading too much about.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
The Denver Airport zoned for that if I don't know, if.

Speaker 4 (01:19:11):
They can you legislate, yes you can, Okay, but.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
You know I think that I'm gonna start tunneling. Yeah,
you're gonna get Everyone should look up conspiracy theories about
the Denver Airport. I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah,
there's tunnels. Wow, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
Hey does this movie past the Bechdel.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
Tast I thought it came close, but I don't think
it does. Do Gwen and Dot ok ever exchange words?

Speaker 6 (01:19:38):
Not that I.

Speaker 3 (01:19:39):
Noticed, And Gwen and Penny Parker also, I do not
believe interact right. The only conversation that I noticed was
where Aunt Ma says, oh, geez, are those sweatpants referring
to Peter Parker's sweatpants, and then Gwen says, yep, that's
what they are. But they're talking about Peter Parker's clothes.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Peter Parker's body.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
It does kind of objectifying him, which actually is like
that's what we should be doing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
It is it is nuts to me that this could
be that is so like progressive fails this very easy
metrics and this is not what the kind of movie
where you're like, well, but like in this case, I
don't think the Bechdel test is a flawed metric at all.
We have a lot and I think that that does
speak to how underdeveloped some of these female characters are, right,
and how one dimensional they are, and how they're I mean,

(01:20:27):
I feel like the main thing with Bechtel, with the
Bechtel test is that it really if it doesn't pass,
it identifies how a movie is using its female characters.
It's either that they're not there, like Star Wars the
first one, or it's if you have a lot of
women and it's still not passing the Bechdel test, then
they probably only exist in relation to the male characters,
or they're tokenized. And I think that that is kind

(01:20:49):
of how this movie works, where Gwen and doc Oc
are active characters that are within most scenes with them
the only woman present yea, or there's a lot of
women who exist only in relation to men. You've got
miles of Mom, You've got Fisks, his wife, You've got

(01:21:11):
I don't really know where Penny Parker.

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
I mean, she's just we just don't really know anything
about her, right, you would think she and Gwen would
at least have some small exchange. I mean, they're all
working together toward the same goal. And then you would
also think that Aunt May and like, at least Gwen
would talk a little bit more, or May and or I.

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):
Mean Parker gwent Yeah, because it's like Gwen. I think
Gwen and Aunt May. That is like the scene where
two women are in the same scene for the longest
and not fighting, so that there's plausible there'd be some
dialogue between them. Yeah, and it just simply doesn't happen. Also,
there if you run the numbies on this progressive movie,
only twenty one percent of cast and crew members were

(01:21:54):
women and eleven percent of key cast and crew members
were people of color.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
Shit shit indeed, Well it goes to show that we
still have a lot of work to do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:08):
I do encourage our listeners and and us because sometimes
I think we slip on this to also be looking
at who is behind the camera because this movie is
a very male dominated production crew and very white dominated
production crew, and the cast is fairly diverse, but behind
the scenes not much diversity. You got Amy Pascal and

(01:22:31):
her emails which identify as female, so unfortunately there are
still not a lot of people of color or women
in key roles. This is still majority white guys. It
should be said that the movie is directed by three dudes.
One of the directors, Peter Ramsey, is a black man,
and also it was the first black director to ever

(01:22:52):
be nominated for Best Animated Feature.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
Oh cool, which is really cool.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Yeah, but you know, percentage wise still pretty I mean,
I'm kind of like, that's pretty abysmallybaut eleven percent people
of color, especially in this in the first like Avro
Lutino s Spider Man Kurt, like eleven percent. It's shit higher, yeah,
I think.

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):
And hello, it's Caitlin and Jamie from the Future.

Speaker 5 (01:23:22):
We've learned so much.

Speaker 3 (01:23:26):
So we wanted to redo our nipple ratings for this
movie because again, we've we've grown, we've learned, and when
we originally gave the nipple rating for this movie, it
was before we were taking like a more fully intersectional
approach to the nipple rating. So I would like to

(01:23:51):
amend the ratings that we gave.

Speaker 5 (01:23:54):
And I wouldn't, but fine, no, I, I uh yes,
this this is the right thing to do.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):
And also it's just.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
Another time to write about the Spider Verse because it comes.

Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
Out so soon, Yes, indeed, and so we are here
to give our updated nipple ratings. The Nipple scale, of
course being our perfect, amazing, incredible metric.

Speaker 5 (01:24:20):
Iconic nothing like it, never done before, won't be done.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
Again truly, and it works like this. We rate on
a scale of zero to five nipples based on looking
at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. As such. Again,
I deeply love this movie. It is one of my
favorites of all time. It has so much going for it.

(01:24:45):
Superhero movies are usually like the most popular and highest
grossing movies that come out in any year, but they
still so often center whiteness and center men, and it's still.

Speaker 5 (01:24:58):
Like very much out of the norm. That not to
be the case, which is not the fault of this movie.
But I remember the original conversation around this movie being.

Speaker 4 (01:25:06):
Like, wow, can you imagine, And at the time many
people could not, which is depressing.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
And before this movie came out, I remember there was
a lot of discourse about like, can we have a
black Spider Man? And Donald Glover was in the running,
and then that didn't happen, to the upset of many people.
But studios are cowards and they didn't do it anyway.

(01:25:35):
So this movie coming out in twenty eighteen felt like
a big win at the time, and it still feels
like a big win. And I love it, and I
hope to see more diversity in obviously all movies, including

(01:25:55):
super hero movies. It is is a story about fathers
and sons, but not against Yeah, it's not against the law.
Just because it happens every single day doesn't mean it's
always a bad thing. And what I appreciate about this
one is that the main arc of the like father

(01:26:17):
son subplot is two male characters needing to learn to
open up and express their emotions to each other and
to show affection and vulnerability with each other. They obviously
still have a ways to go on that journey, but
it's nice to see that dynamic explored in a father

(01:26:41):
son relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:26:43):
Yeah, and I also likeciated that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:44):
I also like that by the end of the movie,
like their relationship is it isn't like Movie five of like,
and their relationship is totally repaired and everything will be
great from here on out. Like it's incremental and I'm
excited to see how that you know what motion is
in future installments.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
Right, And it seems based on the trailers. Again, at
the time of this recording, we have not yet seen
across the Spider Verse, but it seems to get getting
great reviews. It seems like women do play a more
integral and active role in this movie. Based on the trailers,
it feels like there might be more of a focus
on Miles's relationship with his mother yay, which is one

(01:27:27):
of the gripes.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
Yeah, your number one criticism of this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
Yes, so that's exciting. Seems like we get even more
female Spider people in this one, Spider Women. Seems like
you get more female villains in this So it just
feels like women are more meaningfully included in this movie

(01:27:51):
that's coming out. I'm excited. But all of this in mind,
I'm going to give the movie four nipples, which is
a pretty significant bump from what I had given it originally.
Maybe it's just because this movie keeps growing on me.
It's not perfect. There are some as we discussed, there

(01:28:12):
are some things, but it's nice to see that.

Speaker 4 (01:28:15):
I mean, and again we haven't seen it, but yeah,
I noticed that as well, where it seems like the
franchise is becoming even more inclusive as it continues, and
I'm excited about that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
Who are you giving you nipples to?

Speaker 3 (01:28:29):
I'm gonna spread my nipples out between Miles, his mom, Spider,
Gwen and you know what, Spider Ham. Wow, it's a nipple.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
Yeah, iconic.

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):
I'm gonna I'll meet you at four and I'll leave it. Yeah,
I'll meet you at four because I do. I mean,
I was revisiting this episode as well, and you know,
points were made. I think that this movie's great strength
is it's a beautiful, beautiful coming of age story that's inclusive.
It is like, this has nothing to do with the
nipple scale, but it's like one of the most beautiful

(01:29:07):
animated movies ever made, truly, and I just love it
very very much, and I think you put it very beautifully.
I think the only other thing I would want to
point out is behind the scenes stuff, and I know
we talked about this in the original episode. I think
there was more room for inclusivity behind the scenes this movie.
There are a lot of white guys behind the scenes,

(01:29:29):
and it's very heavily men. And I actually I haven't
checked out. I know that there's a new crop of
directors for this.

Speaker 5 (01:29:39):
Next installment, I think because directing one of these movies
basically kills you.

Speaker 6 (01:29:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:29:44):
But and so I haven't looked into that. And I'm
I guess, I guess, I suppose I'm excited about it.
I don't know, whatever, No, but I really this movie
is so beautiful.

Speaker 5 (01:29:57):
And as we now know, extremely re watchable, and I
think it's.

Speaker 4 (01:30:01):
Just like a great introduction to superhero movies for kids
for sure. Yeah, I'm so excited for the new one.
So four nipples.

Speaker 5 (01:30:12):
Let's see.

Speaker 4 (01:30:12):
I'm gonna give one to Miles obviously, I'm gonna give
one to Spider Gwen.

Speaker 5 (01:30:18):
I'll give one to Miles's mom.

Speaker 4 (01:30:19):
I'll give my last one to Lily Tomlin on May
because I love Lily tom When not May.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
She's great, she's great. Also, I feel like we should
give an honorary nipple to Alfred Molina.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
I mean, okay, let's toss in another one. Figure it out.

Speaker 4 (01:30:35):
Wikipedia page.

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
And Yeah, that's us from the future.

Speaker 3 (01:30:41):
That was our unlocked episode on Spider Man into the
Spider Verse. Hope you enjoyed it. Hope you enjoy the
new movie. If you're planning to see it, I know
I am gonna see it six times. I saw the
first one in the theaters five times, and I have
to break my record.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
You get to top it. You can top that. I
just know it. I can't wait to see it. I'm
going to see it.

Speaker 4 (01:31:05):
With my brother this week.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
Yeah, but yes, thank you so much for listening. Again.
If you enjoyed that Looser Discussion, that is an unlocked
Patreon aka Patreon episode, which you can go sign up
for right now over at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast.
That's five bucks a month and you get access not
just to two new episodes a month with Kaitlin and
myself in the Looser Discussion format. You'll also get access

(01:31:30):
to nearly one hundred and fifty back catalogs because we've
had the Patreon for for many years.

Speaker 3 (01:31:36):
Wow brag us Wow wow wow. And you can find
our merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast.
Grab a T shirt or whatever you want.

Speaker 4 (01:31:47):
To do.

Speaker 1 (01:31:48):
Follow your heart. We trust you, and we can't wait
to talk to you about the next Spider Verse movie.

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
Wee see next week. Bye,

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