Sunset Boulevard

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephy and
Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Mister Jamie, I'm ready for my close up.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Bad news. You're under arrest. No nor acab includes particularly
the cops that arrested Norma Desmond. She did nothing wrong.
All she did was have a dream.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Murdering a male screenwriter is not against the law.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Brutal, brutal. I feel like the movie does feel that
way a little bit, but maybe I'm just prigeting. Welcome
to the Bechdel Cast. We are washed up podcast stars.
They're oh god, you know, really, is it like the
second you turned thirty that you're like, oh, Norma does

(01:01):
but you know, bushy wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
She's got some interesting ID you know, maybe she's onto something.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Maybe I should live with a little chimpanzee at my
house and would that be so bad? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
I felt so bad for that really weird looking chimp.
I don't know what the prop department was doing, but.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
It was like, what, Okay, I'm not even gonna say it,
there's something Nope, never mind, Okay, Yeah, I'm washed Up
Podcast star Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
And I'm Washed Up Podcast star Caitlin Dernte And this
is our washed Up podcast. Hell yeah, where we examine
movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test
as a jumping off point.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Oh, this movie has a fun pass there. Yeah, what
just happened to my brain? Holy shit? Happy New Year? Yes,
and here's what the Bechdel test. We're too washed up
to even talk. Oh my god, so sorry. Our brains
are just so old and decaying that we don't even know.
We think we're on the set of soloam or whatever?

(02:07):
Can you keeps spacing out in the middle of this
recording and being like solo where what? Anyways? Sorry, our
feeble little brains aren't working. The Bechdel Test is a
media metric originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel with
her friend Liz Wallace, which is why it's often called
the Bechdel Wallace Test. It was originally created just as

(02:28):
a one off joke in her excellent comic Dikes to
Watch Out For, as a way of drawing attention to
how little queer representation there was and how infrequently women
spoke to each other. Lots of versions of the test.
Our version is this, we require that a character of
a marginalized gender with a name speak to another character

(02:50):
of a marginalized gender with a name about something other
than a man, for two lines of dialogue. Most movies
don't do it. Past present, and I'll say it future.
I don't think we moved the needle very much, but
that's okay. And today we are discussing a movie that
has been on our request list forever and one that

(03:12):
just felt like it would be fun because it features
the most depressing New Year's Party ever committed to film, truly,
And we just hit the New Year, and so it's
high time we cover Sunset Bulevard nineteen fifty directed by
Billy wild At. That's so true. Who is German not Australian? Yeah? Wait,

(03:34):
huge news. Caitlin and I were talking to an Australian
guy the other night at a New Year's party that
was not depressing. It was very fun. It was very fun,
and he complimented your Australian accent.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
He did and did. I felt so honored.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
It was truly like, in the seven years we've been
doing this, the first time we've received active encouragement from
an authority and it felt really good. Yeah, so thank
you Trint for for the compliments that did not pass
the Bechdel test. So hope you're taking notes, Hope you're
keeping up correct.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
You know what is going to pass the Bechdel test though,
is when we take a little detour to plug the
tour that we have coming up.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yes, it will totally pass the Bechdel test because a
tour is famously genderless.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
And it's about Barbie, the Barbie Movie.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I'm really excited. I just don't have a bone of
hate in my body for the Barbie Movie, except for
the few that we'll talk about at the show. Yeah,
we were touring five cities coming up at the beginning
of February. We are covering the Barbie Movie in every city.
February first, we'll be at SF Sketch Fest in San Francisco.
February second will be going over to Sacramento. Oh, Greta

(04:49):
Gerwig vibes much everything about that Lady Bird. Our Barbie
show there is sold out, but we still have tickets
available to our second show, which is about the Wolf
of Wall Street, which is like basically the same movie
on same experience. You'll be fine, too much. Bring the luds, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Then after that we are heading to Texas and doing
a show in Dallas on February third, a show in
Austin on February fifth, and then we are circling back
around to southern California and doing a show in San
Diego on February tenth, recovering Barbie at all of those shows,

(05:27):
and tickets are still available, although they're going fast, so yes,
make sure you grab your tickets, which you can do
at Link Tree Slash Bechtel Cast. And you're gonna want
to see us live because here's the thing we put
on a show. It's a spectacle. Okay. We are ready
for our close up at these live shows, you know

(05:51):
we are. Certainly we wear outfits, we do slide shows
if we have time, we do audience Q and.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
A sound really exciting. We wear close and there's we
played games, we've sung, we've danced. We really put on.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
The eat sometimes on stage.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
We do didn't have to be fed. It's kind of like,
you know, a crossover between like a fetish video and
a sexy college lecture, so so coming down and then
we always we have tour exclusive merch and then we
do meet in greats afterwards. So yeah, it's it's always
a fun time and we hope to see you there. Indeed,
don't believe we could have a fun time talking about

(06:29):
a movie. Well, listen to this, Caitlyn, what's your experience
with the movie Sunset Boulevard.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
So I saw it for the first time either late
in high school or early college. I would have been
like seventeen eighteen something like that. I knew that it
was a very culturally significant movie, you know, one of
the greats from the classic Hollywood era. So it's been

(06:57):
on my radar for a very long time. And yeah,
I watched it once then probably once again for like
a film school assignment, and then maybe even a second
time for a film school assignment when I did go
and get my master's degree in screenwriting at Boston University,

(07:18):
a fact that I never mention, and you know who
probably doesn't have a master's in screenwriting from Boston University
is Joe Gillis.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Oh, I was like, whoa, why are we yelling at me? Yeah,
it's true, it's true, and that's why he's such a
failure exactly, and maybe that's why he died. It makes
you think, Yeah, I have a similar experience with this movie.
I hadn't seen it in a bit, but I would
consider it in sort of my top tier of movies.

(07:48):
I've seen it many times. I saw it for the
first time, I think in college first just for fun
or like the film program, like we've discussed like, oh,
I have to watch this movie because like this movie
is I think, like fantastic, and it's also heavily assigned.
I've like a lot of people watch this movie for school,

(08:08):
and maybe more people should watch it for fun because
it's fun to watch. But yeah, I think I've mentioned
this in the show in past years. I took this
class in college that not only aged tremendously poorly, but
at the time students were like what the fuck. I
had a class called Wilder, Allan and Kaufman, and I
took heavy objection to it exactly one of those directors.

(08:32):
I didn't want to. I wanted to study the other
two and not the middle one. Blah blah blah. It
was like twenty thirteen, and they were like, shut up. Anyways,
I quite enjoyed the Wilder portions of that class, in
the Kaffman portions, but for the sake of this conversation,
I sort of became a proper Billy Wilder fan through

(08:53):
taking that class. I think he's a really fascinating person, complicated,
certainly imperfect, but like I really like his work. And
I mean, I think this is my favorite Billy Wilder movie.
But I mean it is like kind of not to
like start the episode out by like handing it to
a man, but I really really like, I mean, the

(09:13):
amount of incredibly influential movies that he turned out in
this course of his career is absolutely I'll say it
is Wilder. Wow.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I mean, You've got Double Indemnity, which we have covered
a couple of years ago on the show with Anita Sarkisian.
We have not covered, but other very notable movies of
his include The Seven Year Itch, The Apartment, and Some
Like It Hot, which is probably my favorite Wilder movie.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
I mean, like it's almost like a three way time
between ugh, because we were also talking about covering The
Apartment this week, because it's also like a holiday time movie.
It might be a tie between the Sunset Boulevard and
The Apartment for me, but some like it Hot is
also so great. See he also directed Sabrina like he
did a lot of great work. And I was trying

(10:02):
to read where I know that he had contentious relationships
with actors and actresses. It seemed like but I think
he's been through several rounds of film buff discourse of
is his work pro women, is his work anti women?
I think the answer, as with most people, is like
somewhere in the middle, and it depends from text to text,

(10:23):
and it depends on the years coming out all this stuff.
I love Sunset Boulevard. I love the performances in it,
and I really I mean, I hadn't watched it, I
want to say, for maybe like three or four years,
and there's so much to talk about. But I think
as it's probably my favorite movie about movies. It's a

(10:43):
good one. Yeah, And I feel like it still has
a lot to say in a way that feels like
kind of depressingly not dated. This movie is over seventy
years old, and it still feels like what it's saying
is still very relevant to how the movie and just works,
but also very specific to the silent era and like,

(11:03):
I'm really excited to talk about the context of this
movie because Norma Dusmond is such a complex character that
I feel like you can view a million ways, some
of which are we'll talk about all one million. I
just have like such, I can't imagine being Glorious Swanson
and having like this experience and then being like, here's

(11:24):
the character, and then not just being like, Okay, I
can compartmentalize my entire life and career and play this
caricature of an actor and while watching my movies that
were directed by.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Marriage and whatever, yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
That movie was directed by him, and like compartmentalize it
and not just be able to compartmentalize it, but like
deliver such an iconic performance that like is so stripped
of artifice, and like it's just and I have issues
with that in some but I just like, I don't know,
I can't watch this movie and not be like, oh

(12:05):
my god, I don't know if I could even consider
doing something that would require compartmentalizing your ego to that extent.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
It's unbelievable, I know, right Well, shall we get into
it with the recap.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
And where we're back.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
All right, So here's the recap of Sunset Boulevard. But
before that'll place a content warning for suicide as well
as emotional abuse in a partnership.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
If you're triggered by a character named hog Eye. Hog Eye,
I have so many questions about Haguy? What was going on?
How Guy? There are a few lines in this movie
that are obviously, like, very famous, whether you've seen the
movie or not. But hello, haw Guy. You're like, whoa,
that's the greatest line rate I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Because it's also not clear because he identifies himself if
she remembers so yeah, he says, Hey, it's me, how Guy,
and then she responds hello guy, but it's we don't
know if she recognizes him and knows him or if
she's just like being like.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
I'm gonna guess she does, so I'm gonna guess she's
actively listening. But just like the way she greets ha
guy and he's so thrilled iconic, Oh my god, yeallo
all right EPISP.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
The movie opens on Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, California.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
I've ever heard of it? Oh, I can see it
from my freaking house. Oh my gosh, I can't wait
to die in a pool. Okay, So the police are
heading to a huge mansion on Sunset Boulevard to investigate
a homicide because the body of a man was found
floating in the pool of a movie star. Yes, I

(14:16):
feel like you know, narration is so often like overused
or like as a lazy tool, but it rocks in
this movie. And there's also that sort of moment where
like Joe the William Holton character, as like, this isn't
a famous thing to say yet, but he's like, you're
kind of wondering how I got here. Huh, well, it's
kind of a weird story.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
We go take it back, like, let's flash back to
six months earlier where we meet and we get voiceover
narration from a struggling screenwriter who, again I can only
assume is struggling because he doesn't have a master's degree
in screenwriting.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's so yeah watching this, I mean, just like individually,
you're just like, wow, I don't like that I can
relate with Joe and Norman No Bad and Betty like,
oh I know, it's almost like it's a really good movie.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Okay, Wow, Okay, So This screenwriter is Joe Gillis played
by William Holden, and some men show up at his
apartment to try to repossess his car because he's several
months behind on payments. He needs some quick cash. He
mentions two hundred and ninety dollars, which is nearly four

(15:31):
thousand dollars in today's money. Bad and that situation, yes,
So he's trying to go around town and borrow money
from friends.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
No luck.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
He also goes to Paramount to pitch a story idea,
hoping that he can sell a script, but the producer
isn't interested because a script reader named Betty played by
Nancy Olsen is like, yeah, I read that script and
it sucked.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
So I honestly it's like, you have such Betty, I
kept writing down Caitlyn vibes when he's like, what do
you think?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
She would just be like nu, it's a trite and boring.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah. And then they meet up again later and you're like, oh,
she's good, but she's just as hard. She's just like, no,
it's bad. I still don't like it.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
But then she's also like, but I've heard your talented
and I can see your potential, so let's collaborate and.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right, which is like at least grounded in the fact
that she's seen work of his that she liked, but
like none of the work of his that she liked
has ever been produced, which does feel true to far. Yeah,
I really like that exchange between them where she's like,
I heard you had talent and he's like, not this year.
I'm trying to work this year. I'm like, damn me too,
me too.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Man relatable. Yeah, Okay. So Joe leaves and while he's
driving down Sunset Boulevard, he spots the guys who are
trying to repoe his car, so he speeds away and
ends up in the driveway of what appears to be
an abandoned mansion, and he hides his car in the
empty garage. His plan is basically to skip town, take

(17:01):
a bus back to Ohio, and kind of just like
give up on the Hollywood life. But as he's there
examining this mansion, he hears a woman's voice and it
turns out the house has not been abandoned. Then a
butler named Max played by Eric von Stroheim, who, if

(17:22):
you don't know, is a prominent Silent film era director
who directed a movie starring Gloria Swanson, and.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Don't worry they show a clip of it. Don't screen
it this god.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yes, So anyway, Max the butler shows Joe inside and
the woman whose voice we heard had mistaken Joe for
being an undertaker who's there to remove the body of
a dead chin.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Pansy monkey undertaker. Yeah what, and the chimpanzee has been dead.
I dare I say for a while, it seems like
so it looks dry, uh huh, yucky, it's nasty. Anyway,
it's real meet cute. At the top, they kind of

(18:10):
do like start vibing immediately, like you know, it's fundamentally
an abusive relationship with this first encounter, I'm like, are
they vibing right now over the whole dead monkey situation?

Speaker 2 (18:21):
But in a very it's like a very neggy Yeah
both ways with these two way nagging street they're weirdos,
they're sick. So anyway, Joe is like, you got the
wrong guy, But wait a minute, I recognize you because
the woman is Norma Desmond played by Gloria Swanson, a

(18:43):
silent movie star who used to be very famous but
hasn't worked as an actor since talkies became popular, which
is something that we learn she deeply resents that you know,
she's not working anymore, and.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
That she hasn't completely accepted that she is no longer
a big current start, and also that she struggles to
accept the fact that she's aging and accept her own
mortality because of how older women are treated in Hollywood,
which I feel like this is one of the few
movies of this era that like, well, we'll get into it,
but like it's at least suggested and clear that there

(19:25):
is a systemic reason that she's trained to see herself.
It's all over the place, but like, I feel like
it's clearer than you know, normally you see a woman
over forty much less fifty that the call is coming
from inside the house, and this is just something that
happens at least this movie, I think. Does a lot

(19:47):
of current movies do to contextualize it. Yeah, true, but
it doesn't free her from you know, the troupes, all
that stuff. It's so we're covering well, yeah, I guess
this will come out in sequential order. We're covering May
December coming up next week, and I know it's just
because we've been sort of preparing for these episodes beside
each other. But there are these like interesting parallels between

(20:10):
you know, just like an older woman and by old,
you know a woman over fifty, right, yeah, whose whole
life has been constructed to protect her from reality, amongst
other things. But it was just interesting watching those movies
side by side and being like, oh, obviously I know
that Todd Haynes has seen Sunset Boulevard, but there is
like just the haunted house feel to it for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, I was also getting some misery parallels. Sure, yeah,
a movie we covered some time years ago. Yeah, And
I was like, wow, I bet Stephen King watched.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah. It's like, oh, I love having the genius thought
that maybe a famous director has seen one of the
most famous movies ever, Like could it be? Are you anyway?

Speaker 2 (20:59):
So Joe recognizes Norma Desmond and she's like, oh, wait
a minute, you're a writer. Well, I wrote a story
about Slome that I want Cecil B. Demill to direct,
and she wants Joe to read her very long, handwritten script.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
It's got Santi University vibes. I was like, wow, literally,
Norma Desmond wrote her Santi University. And also she's like,
and no one will produce it.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
It's six hundred pages.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yep. She won't take.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Notes, certainly not, And so Joe starts reading it and
it turns out to be like poorly written, melodramatic drivel.
But Joe realizes that he can try to squeeze some
money out of Norma if he offers to rewrite the script. Yeah,
and she's like, well, you're Sagittarius, so I can trust

(21:58):
you again.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
It's like, no, No, that's the worst reasoning I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
There's another scene later on where she's talking about, like
today is the exact right day to drop off the
script to Cecil b de Mill because of like the
alignments of the planets and how she's a blah blah
blah and he's a leah or whatever.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Like she's like, la women are going to LA women.
It doesn't matter what decade it is, exactly the position
of the stars is what is going to make or
break their flopping career, you know, sure, yeah yeah, And
also like we don't even need to ascribe a gender
to it. That's just simply what it's like out here
in general. It's true. And if you live in La

(22:44):
and you think you're immune to it, you just haven't
lived here long enough. I don't think.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
I quite recently was like, okay, fine, I'll finally figure
out what my like rising and moon signs are.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Oh gosh, wait, you should get a chart reading from
my friend Cameron. Shout out Cameron Farmer's chart. My boyfriend
just got his chart read by them, because he also
was like, okay, you win, La, you win. I will
find out about the start I know.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
And then also a few years ago, I bought crystals.
I went to House of Intuition, I remember, and I
bought crystals because I was like, these are gonna change
my life and did they certainly not.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
But they're pretty A bunch of people just threw their
phone in across the They're just like god, damn it.
They're all like this. It's kind of true, but like,
you know, victimist crime unless you get into like a
wellness called don't do it. Don't do that, just don't
do that, just don't Yeah exactly. Anyways, Norma Desmond not immune.
I was just it was funny to be like, oh wow,
nineteen fifty and yeah, yeah, it's just always been like that.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, I didn't realize it, but it's true. Good for
her Okay, So Norma has Joe read the rest of
her script. She makes him stay the night to finish
reading it because she won't let the script leave her house.
She sets up a room for him and he's like, Okay,
this is fucking weird, but whatever, I need money.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Then he wakes up to discover that Norma had her butler, Max,
bring all of Joe's stuff to her home. Basically, she
wants him to move in while he's working on her script,
and he's upset and freaked out, but he decides to
get to work and get it over with as quickly

(24:36):
as possible. But Norma is like hovering over him. She's
being very controlling, and it's also clear, like you previously
mentioned Jamie, that she's like she's been very sheltered. She's
perhaps delusional. She's also very egotistical.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
And there's a big twist that like triple validates this
late in the moon, but like, it still feels very
like Max is like her protector. It's how I think
of my eldest cat, Flee. Flee has Max vibes where
he's like, don't disturb her, she's working.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
But yeah, she she's very like self absorbed She's always
responding to fan mail from her adoring fans. She always
insists on watching her own movies, things like that the.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Fan mail thing was another May December overlap for me,
where the Juliete more character like it's the same three
neighbors keeping her bakery in business to appease her, and like, yeah,
just sort of this like privileged but contextually upsetting and
like fundamental, like just the bubble that you're stuck in. Granted,

(25:50):
I have far more empathy for Norma, and you know
she knew what she had to do.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, So more time passes and a dynamic starts to
emerge between Norma and Joe, where basically she becomes his
sugar mama.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Whoa, I said, I don't think I've ever heard you
say that phrase out loud.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
It felt so weird coming out of my mouth. I'm
not gonna lie. Someone clipped that, is that even the
term sugar mama?

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Is that any So sugar mommy, sugar mommy? I don't know.
I don't know. I think sugar mommy, sugar daddy. Yeah,
but then sugar mama is a character on the Proud Family,
And so how do we square that we don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
The bottom line is Joe is her sugar baby.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
That's definitely true. That's okay, okay, and we're back.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
And we're back, and Norma seems to be into him,
but he at present is not into her.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
We also around this time find out that Max the
Butler is the one who is sending all of the
fan mail to Norma, and so Joe is like, yikes, okay.
Then he attends Norma's New Year's Eve party, except that
Joe is the only one who Norma invited and because

(27:16):
she's in love with him.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, and she's like being actively predatory, creepy yeah, And
so he's creeped out and he leaves and goes to
his friends New Year's Eve party hosted by Artie, who
says that Joe can stay with him for a few
weeks because Joe's trying to get the hell out of there.
Artie really gets the short end of the stick of it.

(27:38):
I mean, I guess Joe dies, so that doesn't end
very well for him, but there is like a poor
Arty later on. I'm like, already did nothing wrong except
ask someone to come to Arizona, which is like generally
do that, No offense to all of our treasure. We
just got so many subscriber Oh you la, people think

(27:58):
you're better than Aaron Zona. And here's why the stars
are on my side. Just kidding, I don't know what
I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Let's get Yeah, don't listen to us anyway. Artie's girlfriend
is Betty, the script reader from earlier, who mentions to
Joe that she has read another one of his scripts
and she's like, it does suck for the most part,
but there's this flashback with a teacher character that has

(28:26):
a lot of potential. Yeah, so they're talking about that.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Betty's good at her job, like she's direct, but she's
also constructed, like the lady knows what she's doing exactly,
and she's only twenty two. She's got a future in
this town. Tell me about it. Well, we'll get there.
But it's just like, God, I mean, I guess you
already know that Joe dies. I'm just like, you know,
he really would have been dead weight and her life

(28:53):
so sorry, sorry, But also like, what she gonna do
move to Arizona? I sure hope not. I hope she
was like, Hey, I just need to be single for
a while. I think that that's that's why she does
do that.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, but before then she and Joe are flirting a
little bit, even though Artie is in the next room,
and so.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
That's not very that's not very nice. And then also
I'm like, well, she's twenty two or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
So then Joe discovers that Norma is horribly distraught and
that she attempted suicide after he left her New Year's
Eve party, so he hurries back to her house to
comfort her, and then they kiss, and then it fades
to black, which I feel implies they have sex.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
I'm on board with.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yes, yeah, yes, So now Norma and Joe are like together.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
I love what it says on scholarly journal Wikipedia that
maybe laughed. Joe returns to Norma and there relationship becomes
non platonic. Oh they fuck, They fuck? Yeah hard. I mean,
I don't know, we don't know, we don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
The production code wouldn't show it.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, I'm like, the writers new, the writers do it.
I believe Billy Wilder knew how Norma fucks, but we
just weren't privy to that information.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, so Joe and Norma are together now. But also
Joe bumps into Betty again, and she is urging him
to work with her on this script idea, and he's like,
I don't know, we'll see. Then the script of Norma's
that Joe has been rewriting is finished and it gets

(30:49):
dropped off at Paramount Studios. And then a few days later,
Norma and Joe go to Paramount to see cecil B
de Mille, and Norma thinks that he wants to direct
her movie. But it's clear to us, though not clear
to Norma, that Demil thinks she's a nuisance and he

(31:09):
wants nothing to do with her.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
I'm excited to talk about this scene. It's a devastating scene.
It's yeah, yeah, it's brutal, really is. And this is
also where our friend Hagye shows up, so we have
to get hello, hai guy.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
He spins a spotlight around and shines it on her,
and she's like, yes, this is where I meant to be.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
And you know, Hagy got an earfull from all the mail.
Probably got fired for that. God. I hope not. I
hope not. He's worked there for years. Katelie's I mean
the silent era, you can't fire Hog. I let him
off of the warning.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
I seriously, I know. Anyway, So, thinking that she is
going to star in a movie soon and make the
triumphant return to the screen, Norma starts getting all kinds
of facials and massages and beauty treatments. She starts counting
calories things like that.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Meanwhile, women are still encouraged to do today well and
also any actor.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
But right, yes, yeah, but especially the pressure because women
are so highly valued for their appearance and their youth,
that pressure is especially placed on women and fans. Yes, okay. Meanwhile,
Joe has been sneaking out every night to meet up
with Betty so that they can write this script about

(32:38):
the teachers together. And also they're vibing even though she
is now engaged to Artie, who is I think working
on a film in Arizona. Anyway, One night, Max catches
Joe as he's returning from sneaking out, and Joe is like, Max,
we have to put an end to this charade. What

(33:00):
happens when she finds out that there is no Demill
movie and Max is like, she'll never find out. I
was the one who made her a star and I'll
keep her that way. And then this is where Max
reveals that he directed all of her early movies, and
that he was Norma's first husband.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Why wild That twist never ceases to be, like, so
you're doing what right?

Speaker 2 (33:30):
And I think, let me know if I have this right.
But it seems as though they were together and then
she rose to stardom and then left him and he
couldn't handle it and he came crawling back, and then
she made him her servant.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Is that what happened? It seems like I would say
he certainly is still in love with her, yeah, and
also has this sort of paternalistic control over her life too,
because it's like I hadn't ever really like thought past, like, well,
what would Norma's life look like if Max wasn't there?

(34:09):
And I think that like he clearly thinks that she
would be actively suffering without him, preserving this delusion and
kind of keeping her trapped in this house to an
extent by taking you know, making sure all of her
needs are met. But I you know, it's like possibly
not like you will never know because you know she's
been preserved in this place. I don't know, Yeah, Like

(34:30):
the push and pull of like Norma is absolutely an
emotionally abusive person and like extremely manipulative sort of by
any means necessary, while having serious mental illness problems, will also,
by any means necessary, keep the people she wants around
around her to preserve these delusions of grandeur that she has.

(34:51):
But it's also like there is so much patriarchy that
surrounds her, right, and like.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
She has this enabler who is like playing into this delusion.
So it's fair.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, it's a I mean, it's it's such a good movie, yeah,
because it's just like, yeah, the cycle of abuse is
present in every single character, and like you can argue
that the you know, Joe being straightforward with her is
a gift in a way, but it also is like
it's what gets him killed. It's it's good that this

(35:25):
will be demil sequence that leads into Max revealing that
like she's Grew, I'm Kevin, and you're just like, huh,
got it. It is kind of a Grew Kevin situation.
If there was like three hundred Maxes, it would be
think about.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
That, right, So Max is the Kevin le Mignon in
this scenario.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Dominions, He's all of the minions in one guy. If
Drew had married one of the ominions. Anyways, it doesn't
quite work in any case, we make.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
This work, Okay. So we get all these like intense
reveals and we're like, oh my gosh. Meanwhile, Betty is
talking to Joe and she's like, I'm not in love
with my fiance Alretie and my fiance yes anymore. I'm

(36:23):
in love with you, Joe. And then they smooch on
the lips. And so now Joe is trying to figure
out a way to leave Norma. But oh no, Norma,
unbeknownst to Joe, has found the script that he's been
working on with Betty. So Norma calls Betty to tell
her like what this situation actually is with Joe, like

(36:46):
who he lives with, how he lives, who's bankrolling his
life basically, and then Betty goes over to Norma's house
to see for herself what's going on. Also, Norma has
bought a revolver, and we're like, okay, checkof's gun alert.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah. Literally, I think that that scene with Betty is
so I mean, like Joe, it makes sense what Joe's doing,
and I think that he is so overcome by like
shame and frustration and at least I mean one of
the few men in movie history baby that can correctly
identify when he's no good for a woman and she's

(37:32):
out of his league, and he is like, and I
will move to Ohio, and you're like, wow, more men
should do that. So like he understands that, like, even
though he would like this relationship with Betty actively in
a way that I think kind of plays on movie
tropes where it's like, you know, usually if you have
the like, no we can't, they will by the end.

(37:54):
But like he at least has the presence of mind
to be like, this relationship with Norma is too fucked up, yeah,
and it like speaks to like what is Norma really
a symbol of? But like, by extracting himself from that relationship,
he's also extracting himself from like the Hollywood machine, right,
and everything fucked up about it.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
And extracting himself from this cycle of abuse because he
has been lying to Betty and withholding all this information
from her, and that's so much of what's been happening
between like Norma and Max, and I think, right, Joe
realizes that he is like perpetuating that same cycle onto

(38:37):
Betty in a different way, but totally he's still very
much like withholding information from her. So he's like, I
don't I can't keep doing this. I don't want to
be a part of this period.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, and I think it's really interesting and like speaks
to her naivete as like a younger character that like
he brings her in, tells her exactly like this is
the way I've been lying to you. It is tempting
for me to stay for these very cynical reasons, and
she you know, I think again it's like a little
bit of a play on what we expect where she

(39:10):
offers him forgiveness. You know, I could see that going
either way, like she's horrified by it but offers him
a fresh start essentially, but again he rejects it. He's like, no,
I can't you know, because yeah, I think you're totally right,
like him, staying with Betty first of all, will absolutely
make her life worse and also will keep him in

(39:31):
this Hollywood cycle of abuse. And it's like, I feel
like we're led to believe weirdly that like Betty is
maybe it's not even you know, fast forward thirty years,
Betty is likely extremely jaded as well, because that's just
what happens yeah, but that like it seems like she
for reasons that it's like you know, aligning like youth

(39:54):
and beauty with like they'll be fine. But I think
that it's like set up that she is better suited
to this life because she's like it's a generational thing
with her family and she's had this experience with acting
and leaving acting, and like she has the healthiest attitude
about Hollywood out of anyone, And I think it's because
she's from there and like her parents do behind the

(40:17):
scenes work, so it's like the less ego driven positions
that are are sort of better suited to understand this
is just how it goes if you work in this shitty,
garbage industry. So I don't know, I sort of went
into this viewing being like, uh, how do I feel
about Betty? Is she an underwritten character? But like, I
don't know. Coming out of it, I was like, I'm

(40:38):
never going to argue with more, but I feel like
it's really clear where she's coming from, and like not
that she is like higher functioning in this industry and
like and it has a healthier attitude and avoid like
it does make sense to me why she's kind of
letting things roll off her shoulders but still works hard

(40:59):
kind of vibe.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, yeah, And I'm excited to talk about her more
just because of her attitude toward the film industry and
just kind of how that informs different things about her character.
But yeah, it's all very fascinating anyway. So Okay, Betty
is there at the house. Now. She's trying to encourage

(41:23):
Joe to like run away with her and like escape
this scenario and leave, and he's like, no, I've got
a decent setup here. So Betty runs off heartbroken, but
Joe decides it is time for him to leave and
actually like go through with moving back to Ohio and
just getting out of Hollywood in general. So he starts

(41:46):
packing his belongings and Norma's like, what are you doing?
Why are you leaving me? And he's like, wake up, Norma,
there is no Demil movie. The fan mail you get
is fake and you're not a star anymore. And that's okay,
but you gotta face Fax. And then he goes to leave,

(42:07):
but Norma shoots him and he collapses in the pool dead.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Great gas by vibes good for him, yes, So.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Then after this, Norma goes into a kind of like
fugue state where she completely disassociates and she's ignoring the
cops and the press who are there interrogating her until
the newsreel guys show up with cameras and she's like, cameras, well, okay,

(42:39):
And then she slowly heads down the stairs, thinking that
she's like in the middle of a scene, that she's
like back at the studio, that she has made her
triumphant return. And this is where we get the famous
line from the movie, one of the famous lines from
the movie, often misquoted, mister demil, I'm ready for my
close up. And that's how the movie ends. So let's

(43:02):
take a quick break and we will come back to discuss,
and we're back.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
We're back. Yeah. Part of what I find fascinating about
the ending of that movie, just like reckoning back to
other movies we've covered and like that takes place in
the same sort of span of years, is that the
ghost of Joe who's telling us this story, clearly thinks
that Norma's life is you know, He's like, well, I

(43:38):
don't know what happens to her. She probably won't serve
a lot of prison time because she's so famous but like,
essentially his ghost is like she's fucked. But I'm like
kind of worked out for the ladies in Chicago who
were trying to pivot from Vaudeville into being Moidera's So
I feel like, baby, she's got another act in her
could be ded. He just named Richard Gear to be

(44:02):
your lawyer, and you can really make things work. That's
how I feel. I wouldn't count Norma out, I wouldn't
counter out. Oh yeah, is that a good thing? I
don't know. Okay, where shall we begin? Oh boy, let's see.
I mean I want to do a little context for
this movie, because it is like the context of it

(44:24):
is very important. Yeah, so this is, you know, as
we've already talked about a Billy Wilds a movie. He
was born in nineteen oh six. He's a Jewish director.
He was born in Austria, Hungary, which either way, yeah,
he ultimately moved to America and began working in films.

(44:47):
I believe that he did do some work in the
silent era, but mostly worked in the talkies, which exists
to this day. What in any case, this movie, it
was extremely polarizing and sort of disliked in Hollywood. Communities.
When it came out, it prompted Louis Bymyriage to say

(45:09):
something very xenophobic to Billy Wilder. He said, you've disgraced
the industry that made and fed you. You should be
tarred and feathered and run out of Hollywood. And he
kept going, oh, he like said get out of the country,
essentially implied that he should go back to Germany, which
to say that to a Jewish director in nineteen fifty

(45:30):
is unfucking believable, and like Louis by mahor notorious monster,
but also speaks to like uh. Billy Wilder was a
very successful director within the studio system and within the
star system, and this was viewed as like, how dare
you bite the hand that feeds you or criticize the
hand that feeds you, right, which is like fuck you,

(45:50):
which is exactly when Billy Wilder walked up to Louisimhor
and said, he said, go fuck yourself girl. He was right. Okay.
The other thing that is, like we've already referenced, is
the fact that so many people, because this came out
in nineteen fifty, this was the time that like silent
film stars that did not make the crossover into sound

(46:15):
pictures were getting older and hadn't worked in a while.
This was Gloria Swanson's first movie in like nine years
at the time that she had kind of switched to do.
I think it's an interesting point in history, and like
the fact that this movie is as like brutal as
it is, it's really interesting because it's we were seeing
around this time and like would continue even for like

(46:39):
old Hollywood stars that did crossover into talking movies, people
like Betty Davis, at people like Joan Crawford, like they
would be pushed into television back on stage or if
they stated movies would often be cast you know, the
only way to really get a leading role would be
to do older woman bodyhorn, which you see, you know,

(47:01):
as the years go on. Like I think whatever Happened
to Baby Jane is a huge example of that, where
it's like, well, if you are a woman over fifty
working at Hollywood and you want to work outside of
like the kindly mother role, what are your options? And
it is sort of like Norma Desmond is like the

(47:22):
best role available because at least it's self aware. But
like in most cases, there's a whole subgenre that still
exists in certain ways. There's a great video essay about
it from be kind Rewind that talks about whatever happened
to Baby Jane specifically, but basically it is like a
whole subgenre called hag horror that you know, just capitalizes

(47:44):
on the star power of incredible actresses when they were
younger and you know, allows them to be in movies
with the contingency that they are perpetuating the idea that
being an aging woman is horrific.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
It's really interesting because, like we've talked about, like Gloria Swanson,
this is her lived experience. We are seeing, not Norma
Desmond story, but like she, you know, was a silent
film star who never quite broke out as a talking
film actress. Before Sunset Boulevard, she went back on stage.
She was still working. She worked, she did stuff on TV,

(48:22):
she worked on stage. You know, she wasn't rotting in
a house, which I think is pretty fucking insulting. Yeah,
but her career, I think we still see this with
women and fems today. The types of roles she was
offered changed, the types of mediums she was welcomed and changed.
And then you know, Max is played by a silent

(48:43):
film director. It's Buster Keaton is in this movie.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Right, Demill plays himself, and Demill is often credited as
the director who kind of made Gloria Swanson a star.
So there's all these really interesting parallel between Glorious Swanson
and the character she plays. Again, to our knowledge, Glorious
Swanson wasn't, you know, didn't have a very warped view

(49:11):
of reality and wasn't like living in this kind of delusion.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
But no, she was like living in New York acting
on Broadway like she was. Okay, right, But it's still like,
I honestly haven't studied Demil as a person very much.
I know that he was a notorious conservative. I know
that he was, you know, obviously deeply complicit in many
of the sins of early Hollywood, but it is I

(49:35):
think it's really kind of admirable that he was even
willing to be in this movie as himself, kind of
acknowledging the system that he was still complicit within, because
like that de Mill scene was shot on the set
of a huge movie he was directing, Like it was
exaggerated versions of the actual reality, where it's like he

(49:56):
still hadn't even directed, you know, the time, he hadn't
even directed in his is hit yet when this came out,
And you know, as far as Glorious Swanson's career goes, that,
like Sunset Boulevard is a huge success for her, She's
nominated for an Oscar. It's an unbelievable performance. But it's
like the question is at what cost? Like you know,
Cecil b de mill is not asked to make these

(50:20):
huge ego compromises in order to continue working in an
interesting way, And yeah, that scene is like just so
brutal and like the way that he comes off, I
thought like it worked where it's like he clearly has
sympathy for her, but not empathy and not enough to

(50:40):
do anything about it.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Where be direct about like I actually didn't like your script,
and he just sort of like lets her believe what
she wants to believe, and he's too much of a
coward to like be clear about what's gonna happen, and
instead he's like get Gordon Cole on the phone and
tell him just because the reason.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
That right, he's like, someone else take care of this.
I don't want to take care of this, right, yes, yes,
But then also like I think he doesn't come off
as a complete monster. And I thought that was an
interesting choice too. I mean, I guess that kind of
makes sense where it's like that's where like it's particularly gross,
where he has sympathy for her, he understands her predicament,
but he doesn't want to deal with it because he

(51:22):
does sort of defend her before she comes in the room,
where they're like, oh, wasn't she a fucking nightmare to
work with? And he was like not really, Like she
was great to work with at the beginning of her career,
she was really smart. And then you know, the more
famous she got, the more difficult she became to work with,
which also plays into stereotypes around actors, especially women, especially

(51:43):
the further back in history you go of, like being
characterized as being difficult could mean just being assertive and not.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Rolling out advocating for yourself.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah, exactly. And so we don't really know, we don't
know enough about the period between you know, Norma as
a young woman into a woman in her fifties. But
he has that really good line a dozen press agents
working over time can do a terrible thing to the
human spirit, Yes, which is a great line and also
is like it makes set, like who but him would

(52:16):
fully understand what is happening to her, and he does
have the power to do something about it, as does
any highly influential director. You know, does her script suck?
Certainly seems like it like offer her a part that
is not in this you know, it's I feel like,
because Norma's whole world is designed to protect her from

(52:39):
rejection or change, there are all these missed opportunities for
potential compromise, right to get her back out into into
the world. And so it does feel like these paternalistic
men who want to appease her but don't actually want
to help her in any way, Like she's completely doomed.

(53:02):
Our girl is doing.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
And there's so many layers because like they're feeding into
this ego of hers that is almost bound to form
in a scenario like this where you're so doted on
and you have all these adoring fans, and especially when

(53:23):
you get famous super young, like she did. I think, yes,
it's mentioned that she was discovered when she was sixteen,
so you know, she's a very young person when she
becomes a star.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Just like my theory. By theory holds that you become
frozen in maturity at the moment you become famous. Yeah,
and so she's still acting like a kid like and
it is like they don't shy away from the fact
that her I mean, it's it's like funny the way
that she It's sad, but it is funny how she
talks to Demil where she's like, all right, I don't

(53:54):
care about budget, you figure that out, and I won't
work more than six hours a day, just like Norma.
Come on, we got it, okay, But like that level
of entitlement, Like I don't know, I kind of like
that the movie doesn't make her tragic in the way
that it's like and she's not even asking for much

(54:16):
like she is asking for a lot. She's a diva.
She's not being reasonable. Yeah, she is a diva, but
that doesn't justify the way that she's treated, and it
also doesn't justify the way she treats people like. It's
just extremely messy. I think what I've seen talked about
with Norma a lot over the years, which I do
agree with, but it's like, because it's such a complicated movie,

(54:41):
I don't think that there's any like simple way to
be prescriptive about her. But there are like we've sort
of been hinting at there is the tropes around older
women are fully present. We see characters like this all
the time, even now. The idea of like this is
a woman who has not accept did that she's aging.

(55:02):
And what I think this movie does well, even though
I think it is way over the top and like
the Norma character is more a symbol of how a
whole generation of actresses were treated and discarded, as opposed
to like an actual experience that happened to anyone. My
favorite quote about this was from a former Silent actor

(55:26):
named May Murray who saw the movie and said, none
of us floozies. Was that nuts? Just a very old
Hollywood way to say that. But so obviously it's not
even reflective of Glorious Swanson's experience. It's an exaggerated version
of how women are discarded. And I think that what
works about Normous Character is that you get the full context.

(55:50):
I think with other older women, it's just presented that
this is how older women are, not this is how
the world treats older one right, right.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
That's the thing with this movie that I think makes
it so great, which is that a lesser movie would say, yeah,
this is just how older women behave Why doesn't matter
the way that you know, women are conditioned to feel
about themselves as they age.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
What's that? Never heard of it? You know not?

Speaker 2 (56:25):
But this movie Okay, so it presents a woman who
is quote unquote past her prime and who is characterized
as being delusional. She's controlling, she's very conceited and self obsessed.
But there's also this component of, like we said, she

(56:45):
came out of this like system where like which is
fundamentally abusive, super abusive, so focused on image, and so
heavily values youth in a special women it does tend
to chew people up and spit them out, and again,

(57:05):
especially women as they age. This is clearly what had
happened to Norma. And again, like we mentioned, there's the
component of she became a star when she was super young.
She like you know, came into all this money. It
seems like she invested in oil boo and real estate.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Oil boo, which is like, I mean, that's some rich
lady shit like. And I also think that it is
a good choice that she still has money because it's like, yeah,
that it's not like she's down on her luck in
the financial sense, But it's like all of the loneliness

(57:48):
and like isolation in her life is fueled by feeling
discarded and and it feels like whatever underlying mental health
issues she may have had when she was very famous
are so exacerbated by the predicament that she's in. And
also I think, yeah, like you were saying enabled, however
well intentioned, you know, you could debate all day, but

(58:09):
by people like Max who are like actively preventing her
from trying to live life a different way because of
how he is enabling her current lifestyle that is killing her.
It's like, I it's upsetting to hear the repeated attempts
to take her own life and that like this has
happened before, but there are no changes made to her life.

(58:33):
And certainly so it's like Max is a really difficult
character for me because I like he doesn't have her
best interests at heart, at least in a long term sense.
Like maybe in the short term it's more comfortable for
her to believe these things, but it's clear that like
I don't know, and it's painful to see Norma seeking

(58:54):
out this validation from people where it's you know, I
don't believe that she loves Joe. Really, they think that
she has I think that he and maybe I, you know,
feel free to roast be in the common. I don't
think that she loves him. I think that he is
someone that comes along when she is extremely lonely, who

(59:18):
has a skill that she needs. It's a mutually beneficial
relationship and that like, ultimately, I don't think she kills
him in anything but like anger and jealousy, which are
not love. Right.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Yes, he's one of the first people to reject her
in a way that she actually is able to interpret
it as rejection because she's so surrounded by this like sheltered,
enabled life where you know, he's the first person who

(59:53):
comes along. And I really like his line towards the
end where he says, you know, Norma, you're a woman
of fifty, grow up and there's nothing tragic about being fifty,
not unless you're trying to be twenty five, which is
what Norma is trying to do.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
But I also like that line. It's another amazing line
that is so loaded because it's coming from a man,
because it's like he is like on paper in a
perfect world, he's right, but it's like he doesn't I
feel like, even though he understands that the world has
done Norma this injustice and not in a way that

(01:00:33):
feels underwritten in a way that I think is kind
of genuine to a lot of people who don't have
that experience of just being like, well, why don't you
just snap out of it? And it's like, well, you know,
it's presenting like, well, what are her options? Certainly what
she's doing is not working for anyone, especially her, but

(01:00:53):
like it feels like the alternative that she's being presented
with is disappear gracefully, and that is like what women are,
especially you know, women, the further back you go. And
it's like she is operating at the highest privileged level.
She's a rich white woman, and she's still nonetheless being asked,
you know, can't you just gracefully disappear? Like why can't

(01:01:16):
you do that? And I think that this movie, like
I don't know, I think in this movie, maybe it
doesn't make an overt suggestion of like what is the
alternative because I don't think there is an alternative for
Norma at this time. I mean, if we're being pragmatic,
the alternative is go to TV, go to the stage.
But like, I don't know, it's Norma is an ego

(01:01:38):
monster in a way that a lot of actors are
ego monsters. I don't think that it's like a you know,
a gendered gender thing. I think that the way that
people with big egos are treated is in a gendered way.
You know, for sure, no one's calling a man a diva.
They're like, he knows what he wants and he doesn't
take shit from anyone, and like he's.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Just going method and blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
God. Yeah, but you know when women do the same thing,
they're difficult to work with whatever. But she is an
ego monster, nonetheless, yes, but yeah, it's like what are
her alternatives? And it seems like Joe's like, why don't
you just quietly like, you know, can't you just be normal?
And you're like, she kind of can't. Like not that
that makes it, that justifies any of her actions, but

(01:02:20):
her whole life has been constructed in a way that
it's like, what does normal look like?

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
What does normal normal look like?

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
You know, fact, what does normal look like? Garfield?

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Wow, I just love a cat named normal because I
used to love Garfield so much.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Oh yeah, he was a really good cat shout out normal. Yes,
like she is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
An ego monster, but she's a product of this environment
that turns people into ego monsters. And Joe, Yes, it's
He's right when he says, grow up, you're behaving like
a child based and there's nothing tragic about being fifty
unless you're trying to like desperately cling on to youth,

(01:03:07):
which again she is doing because she is a product
of this you know, nasty Hollywood machine. Yeah, but he's
also complicit in this in the sense that he is
a writer actively working in Hollywood, and his just complicit
in this system that does value youth and beauty in

(01:03:27):
women and that like choose them up and spits them out.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
So and it like makes sense that he's finally comfortable
saying this when he I feel like I've had I mean,
obviously not to this extent, but like you know what,
like your friend is like I'm leaving La, I'm fucking done.
And then and then you just start saying shit, and
like this is his his moment for that where it's like,
you know, he's done with this industry. He doesn't need

(01:03:52):
to preserve any bridges. He's done, and so he can
finally just be like this is fucked, Like I'm your fuck.
This is bad. Pops the bubble because he decides he
doesn't want to benefit from it. I don't know, I
didn't remember, Like it's a small detail, but I was like,
he better not take that stuff. He does it, he
leaves the stuff. He's just like, fuck it, I'm gonna

(01:04:14):
go work at this job in Ohio. And you know,
at that point in the movie, I wanted that for him.
It's it's too bad that he gets killed two minutes later.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
There's something to be said though, for like, look at
this man who is able to accept that he didn't
make it in Hollywood, and so he's gonna go back
to his you know, humble beginnings and do whatever it
takes for him to survive. But he's accepting that the
Hollywood thing didn't work out for him, whereas.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Well, I mean, but I guess where I would contest
that a little bit is like because.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
He's like half I mean, I think the Betty character
helps to balance that out.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Yeah, and also that like Norma has such a wildly
different experience of Hollywood. He hasn't even been successful, so
it's sort of like, well, Yeah, it's kind of a
lot like you can't be doing much worse than you're doing.
You're like kind of a prisoner, you know. So it's
not like I didn't feel gendered to me that it
was easier for him to leave because there was nothing
for him there anymore, and then like it seemed like

(01:05:17):
his only way to stay there is to be in
this horrific I don't even know if you can call
it a relationship, this like cycle of abuse that he
is a part of, but it is also very much
a victim of, and I don't think that that is
something to shy away from. I think that again, if
we're going back to like movie criticism of the mid

(01:05:38):
twenty tens, which is where we came out of and
then we you know, grew up like Norma can't, but
that like there is a hero and villain of this story,
there's not Like Norma is tremendously abusive and manipulative at times.
Joe is like lies and manipulates people as well. Betty's
kind of the only person who's chilling and like, give

(01:05:59):
her time too. She's twenty two. She'll probably you know,
become a monster if she hangs out in Hollywood long
enough's inevitable. But I liked going back to your point
about like the writer being complicit in this system too.
It felt like this movie also had like a pretty
layered approach to that because it's true, but it's also
like demonstrated how the way that the system is encourages

(01:06:22):
that where it's suggested and it's like we don't really
get a clear idea on like what Joe would be
writing in a perfect world, so like is he brilliant?
Probably not, but like he's trying to sell this shitty,
bullshit idea that almost sounds like someone pitching a Netflix
movie right, like they're like, I don't know someone famous,

(01:06:45):
isn't it baseball something? Is this anything? But how it's
it sounds like recently suggested that like this is not
the kind of work he wants to be doing. He
would rather be doing something creative and different, but that's
not the sort of thing that's going to allow him
to make a living. So that's also like drawn attention

(01:07:05):
to God. Yeah that the line about being like, yeah, yeah,
I know you've heard a head of talent, but I
want to work this year, like vibe that, I get it,
I get it. I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Yes, yeah, there's that. And then but I also just
I mean representation of a woman telling a male artist
that his art is bad and try it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Loves it no matter like if they're flirting or not,
Like she's just like I cannot tell a lie.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
At that point, they're not flirting because that's like their
first meeting and she's at work and she's just like
giving her honest, professional opinion and she's like, oh, yeah,
I covered that script and I passed on it because
it was trite, and I was like, hell yeah, dude.
And then also later Demil calls Norma's script awful, but

(01:08:01):
presumably he read the version that Joe rewrote and like
punched up and it's apparently still very bad. So I
think Joe is a flop. He's not a good writer.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
See again, I'm gonna come to Joe's defense here as
someone who's done punch up work. Some things are unsavable
and sometimes fair. And it also sounds like if she's
hovering over his shoulder being like, no, you can't take
that seat out, it's like, well, how much work did
he even really get to do? True? I say Joe
innocent in that instance. I do sort of wonder why

(01:08:34):
because there are multiple times in the movie where Joe
is like, hey, Betty, like you can have this, I
don't really want to do it. I'm like, why doesn't
she just do it? He's given her permission multiple times.
Why doesn't she just do it? But maybe that's a
good I don't know as far as Norma goes to
sort of wrap up that discussion, Yes, to really fully

(01:08:54):
explore her, we would have to talk moment to moment
how she's behaved. I think that there are many tropes
present in her character, undoubtedly. I think that her character
uses these tropes to really exaggerate the point it seems
like Billy Wilder is trying to make about how Hollywood

(01:09:17):
choose actresses up and spits them out. And I think
that in that exaggeration, there are moments that are like
feel almost like I felt bad that Gloria Swanson had
to act them out because it's suggesting that this could
be her own experience when she was a person, and like,

(01:09:39):
it was really interesting reading about her process of becoming
involved with this movie because she was a huge star
at Paramount and there is like a degree of truth
to that like line that Norma says when she goes
into the Paramount lot of like, you know, why should
I have to check in? I'm the reason this place exists.
And Gloria Swanson was such a huge early Paramount star

(01:10:00):
that there is like some tongue in cheekness to that
she didn't want to have to audition for this part.
She's like, why the funk would I have to audition?
That's silly, And George Qcoor, who is like another big
old Hollywood director, was like, just do it, like you'll
regret not doing it. But she had to make ego
compromises in order to play this ego monster, and I

(01:10:23):
just like, that is not the fault of Billy Wilder,
but it is just an example of, like, even to
make this movie that is hyper critical of Hollywood practices,
those practices still had to be in play in order
for it to even happen. And there were a lot
of silent film star actresses who were like, fuck you,
I'm not doing this. Mary Pickford said no, May West

(01:10:45):
said no, I think And you can't fault them at
all to be like, well, and I don't think I
would be able to do They're like, hey, do you
want to play like a podcaster who's like a huge
fucking loser. I would be like, I'd rather not. I
don't know, I'd rather not. I was like, is there, Yeah,
it's not even like hard, No, it's just like, is
that really my only option is there? Which it seems

(01:11:08):
like for Glorious wantson to get back into a major movie,
this was the option and like that fucking sucks.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Yes, but that okay. So this is interesting where the
reason that a lot of stars who were considered or
offered the role of Norma Desmond, the reason they turned
it down informs something which I'll talk about in a second.
But so like may West, who portrayed herself as a

(01:11:36):
sex symbol even into her forties fifties beyond, she was
offended that she would be asked to play you know
a quote unquote Hollywood has been because she's like, I'm
still fucking hot, Like that's not the image I want
to portray.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
The May West rejection's the best one. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Then you've got an actor named Clara Bowes. She was yeah,
famous member her Silent Movie era star. She declined the role,
saying that she didn't want to engage in the film
industry again because of how hard it was for her
to transition during like sound films, and I think it

(01:12:16):
just like rung too close to home.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Norma Shearer also rejected the role due to, like I think,
similar reasons. She retired and she just had a distaste
for the script. She just didn't feel like the characters
someone she wanted to portray. But that brings me to
this movie and how it does acknowledge the effect of

(01:12:41):
societal expectations that are placed on women as far as like,
you know, you always have to be young forever. If
you age, you are rendered irrelevant. There's this strong pressure
to stay young and beautiful and all of this stuff,
which is this is sidal pressure, but also like very

(01:13:02):
very prevalent in Hollywood, which is so image based. Yes,
this movie also again acknowledges what probably led her to
become such an egotistical person. Do I think that there
could have been a few more explicit lines of dialogue
that address this a little bit more explicitly? Maybe maybe

(01:13:25):
they would have been too on the nose, but I
feel like there are ways that the script could have
addressed and acknowledged those things a little bit more. Sure, thoroughly.
But the movie for the most part, does acknowledge all
of these things. And even though there are tropes present
as far as like, well, yes, of course an older

(01:13:46):
woman is going to be delusional and she's going to
be jealous of the younger woman, because there's that part
where Norma calls Betty, who becomes Joe's new love interest,
and she's like, well, you don't even know what's happening.
He's actually with me, and things like that. But these

(01:14:07):
tropes are you know, tropes often come from some grain
of something that's true, which we see from the reasons
that those other actors rejected that role. So like, it's
all very interesting and it's just handled and I think
of a more nuanced way than a lesser movie would

(01:14:30):
have done.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
I mean, I mean, I really really love this movie.
I just I also, like, I can't fault any actor
for not wanting to play that role, because I mean
it's so you know, reflective of what's happening within the movie.
Of like, this is Norma's big comeback, and this was
Glorious Swanson's quote unquote big comeback into film that yeah,

(01:14:54):
required a level of ego compartmentalization that we don't ask
of male actors, is all I was sort of getting at.
But it's still, like, I think, one of the best
performances I've ever because it's like it's like sad and
it's also goofy and scary what she's doing with her eyes.

(01:15:14):
It's still am big.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
It's the pictures that got small.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
Oh she's just iconic. I love things were queer, but
they were about to get queer. Always true with this performance.
She Oh god, there's moments where she goes like she
does this little gremlin voice that I love, where she's like,
you know, I'm not afraid to die and you're like,
oh my god, Hello, she can go big in that way,

(01:15:40):
but also have these moments of like complete devastit. It's
just so fucking good. She's so good. But yeah, Norma,
I think that what you just said is a great
sort of bow on the Norma conversation. Oh thanks, but
we've got a Betty. We've got a Betty here, we
sure do. We've got miss Betty. I like Betty. I

(01:16:01):
like her. I thought she's got a good head on
her shoulders. I like you said before, I like that
she is. And again I think it is just an
element of because I just think of like people I
know and work with who grew up here tend to
have a healthier attitude towards the sort of bullshit that

(01:16:22):
takes place, because it's just like you're brought up knowing
it's bullshit. Right, It seems like that is sort of
where Betty's coming from. Where she's referenced that she's like
a third generation Hollywood worker, not a Hollywood star, and
then we haven't even talked about her experience as an actor,
which I thought was a really really interesting narrative decision

(01:16:44):
to just add that, because it's like in like the
space of a scene completely helps you understand where she's
coming from and why her attitude, Like it was almost
like she was spared this potential norma future, right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
So her backstory is that, like you said, she comes
from a Hollywood family in the sense that her parents
and grandparents worked in Hollywood, but were never in those
huge roles either as performers or like directors.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Yeah, like lighting, costuming dn't work, yeah, stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
So like she's a Hollywood the real she comes from
a Hollywood family, but it's not like nepotism necessarily it's
not like all that ego is not present in her
character and her kind of line of work. Then you
learn that she because she came from this, you know,
like working class Hollywood family, it would maybe be expected

(01:17:44):
that she would also work and oh, let's try to
make her an actor. So her parents had her take
like acting classes and all this stuff, and then when
she went to do auditions and screen tests and things
like that, it's mentioned that they didn't like her nose,
so she had cosmetic surgery it seems to quote unquote

(01:18:08):
fix her nose or you know, have surgery performed on it,
and then you know, the casting people liked her nose now,
but then they didn't like her acting, so she never
made it as an actor. And it seems like this
is something that she accepted and went to work as
a script reader. But as she tells Joe, she's like,

(01:18:31):
I don't want to do this forever. I'd like to
advance in my career. And that's one of the main
reasons she tries to like strike a professional relationship with him,
because he says something like he's like, thanks for your
interest in my career, and she's like, no, it's not
your career I'm interested in, and it's mine, Like I
was hoping to get in on this, make some kind

(01:18:53):
of deal because I don't want to be a reader
all my life. It seems like she wants to be
a screenwriter.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Right, and it actually like is if she's quote unquote
just a reader at this time, it makes a lot
of sense that she would try to find a writing
partner who has at least had some work produced to
get her first screen credit and then, you know, like,
if she's smart, kind of ditch Joe and start doing
her own thing. Right now, what she's doing makes complete

(01:19:21):
logical sense. I love the story about her almost becoming
an actor and then having that taken away. But like she,
I think because she has a more grounded view of
how brutal the industry is, because she's grown up around it.
It's not this devastating ego blow. Like she's she's adaptable

(01:19:41):
and that's why she survives and because of And again
it's like I think that there would have been a
time where I would have watched Norma and Betty and
thought that it's like suggested that one is adaptable and
one isn't, And like there's a good kind of woman
and a bad kind of woman. But you still have
all the information you need as to why Norma was

(01:20:02):
not adaptable. She never got an opportunity to be adaptable.
She became really famous when she was a kid. It's
all she knows. Are there people who become really famous
as kids who are adaptable people? Certainly? And like it's
always going to be a person to person thing. I
think what is generally true is people who become famous
very young and then are fairly well adjusted as adults

(01:20:26):
tend to have a good support system around them, which
Norma very much does not. It is not so as
exaggerated as her fate is. I do feel like you're
given all of the information as to why Betty is
comparatively well adjusted. I don't think it is a like
youth equals good old equals bad situation. Then they add

(01:20:48):
in this love story, which is just like, I don't know.
I think that this it undercuts like we've been saying
for seven years. Adding a love story is not an
inherently bad thing. It's just like, well, what is it
adding to the story. I think that like, you don't
lose anything in this story if it is like a

(01:21:11):
professional relationship dissolving and not a romantic one developing. Completely agree,
And that is like as close as I feel like
you have to just a trope, be a trup.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
I agree because like, the two main female characters in
this movie both fall in love with Joe, and I'm like,
first of all, why although I understand why Norma and
we already talked about this, whereas like, does she actually
love him or.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
He is useful? You know what's going on there? Exactly?

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
Like she probably you know, thinks she loves him, but
I'm sure she has a pretty warped perception of what
romantic love, like healthy romantic love is.

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
Yeah, so she kinda like she LOOKI had no problem
killing him. He that is to be what indicates that,
you know, I mean, obviously taking into account the mental
health cliff that she is falling off of the entire movie,
I think that that it like demonstrates that this was
not love. It was like, I want someone around me

(01:22:20):
who will help preserve this reality that I live in,
and once he doesn't do that, she kills him. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
That's not yeah, it's that it's she's deeply lonely, it seems,
and he's a young good looking guy who comes.

Speaker 1 (01:22:36):
Along and has also William Holten like he I mean
he's hot.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Yeah, so yeah, it stands to reason why she would
be drawn to him. Yeah, But why Betty is drawn
to Joe I don't quite get in a romantic way.
I can understand why she's like, oh, like, this is
someone who can potentially help me in my career, and

(01:23:02):
she's not going about it in any sort of manipulative way,
like this is how just networking happens in Hollywood, where
you're just like, oh, this is someone.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
No, And that's like she's not pretending that she's doing
something she isn't. She's very honest about right. I mean
in the same way where it's like it would be
very easy for her to bullshit him and be like, oh, yeah,
I'm interested in your career, but she's honest about it.
She's like, no, this is like a mutually beneficial thing.
And they're collaborating in a way that felt like progressive
of like you don't see women professionals acting that way

(01:23:34):
in movies of this time very much, and so like
it's cool, And then I don't know, Yeah, I guess
it's like the only thing I can chalk it up
to is like being twenty two, like I you know,
certainly like in speaking for personal experience, not out of
the realm of possibility that a twenty two year old

(01:23:55):
can become infatuated with someone just because they're like older
and kind of doing something they want to do and
are nearby. But I don't think it serves the story.
I don't think it serves her story. I think it
serves his true in a kind of male centric writer
way where it's like, oh, well, he has to make
the choice between two women, and it has to be

(01:24:15):
a romantic choice, where it doesn't. I think that this
the choice that he's making is ultimately a professional choice anyways,
because he's only with Norma for his career, and like
Betty is offering him a different version of that career,
I think the choice is still like adding the romantic
element is just like not necessary. I mean, it didn't

(01:24:38):
take up so much of the plot that it derailed
the movie. For me. It just felt like thrown in suddenly,
and I know that they were like flirting and vibing
the whole movie. I wouldn't have minded if it was
just kind of left there where it's like they have
this like horny. I don't know. I just hope she
didn't go to Arizona. And I also kind of felt

(01:24:58):
bad for her boyfriend. I was like, that was yeah.
He was so nice to Joe. He's like, yeah, you
can live at my house. I'll do whatever. You're my bud.
And then he's like, all right, time to hit on
your girlfriend. You're like, come on, men get better at
being friends. Anyways. Yeah, I think that the romantic element
like did the least for me of any relationship in

(01:25:20):
the movie. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
I mean Hollywood has been wedging in hetero romances for decades.
I know we see it here and it still happens
to this day.

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):
I wonder if that was like an original part because
Billy Wilder's so funny and interesting, and I just I
really admire him, and I know that probably there's something horrible.
I don't know about I really admired me, but I
really love him and I like hearing about just like

(01:25:54):
he was just a little rascal, where like he would
submit the pages for this script to get approved a
couple of pages at a time. You just sort of
trick people. And then he said he was adapting this
from a text called A Can of Beans, and they
were like, okay, like he'd led people to believe that.
He's like, oh, yeah, it's based on this book I
read called A Can of Beans, which is so funny.

(01:26:17):
You're just like, wow, you really can just don't ask
people who we've here to read a book if you
just tell them the book exists. They're like, yeah, totally
a can of Beans. I heard about that. I just
thought that mus really funny. Yeah, do you have any
they asked you what to touch on for this movie?
Not really.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
I just Norma engages in like as she's I guess
seducing Joe or like what however you want to define
that or what predatory? Yes, she is engaging in predatory
behavior because there's that like line of voiceover narration from

(01:26:59):
Joe where you know she would be showing him one
of her silent films and he says something like you
know sometimes she'd clutch my arm forgetting she was my employer. Yeah,
and then you know that escalates, which I feel like

(01:27:19):
you could argue is leaning into a trope about older
women that sure they are inherently predatory because no one
sees them as romantically viable people. Anymore, so of course
they're going to engage in, you know, sexually predatory behavior.

Speaker 1 (01:27:40):
You're like, now, listen, I don't know how to what
exactly to make of it, but I think that it
is I like, I am inclined to agree with you,
and also like, yeah, like that older women will prey
on younger women and that's like one of the few
kinds of older women that you see, or just like
an older woman who is single, there has to be

(01:28:02):
this air of inherently like she's desperate, right, and it
can't be like, I don't know, like you could even
be an older woman and be lonely and have it
not translate to that behavior. But I mean, I guess
the only thing and I'm obviously not trying to justify
the behavior. I think to contextualize the behavior. I feel
like that behavior is somewhat in line with Norma's entitlement

(01:28:26):
right to how she treats people. So it didn't feel
like out of step with the character. But then that
speaks to like, well, who is the character. It's Norma Desmond.
She's a menace, but also she's wounded and she has
a product of her environment hurt people, hurt people, Damn, damn. Wow,

(01:28:49):
someone tell Billy Wilder that. I think that's all I
have to I just I love this movie. I love
how challenging it still is, and I love how it
interacts directly, not even like just with like the history
of Hollywood up until this point in a really brilliant
and smart way. Also Edith Head costumes just shouting that out.

(01:29:11):
Oh that's that's always a good detail. But does it
pass the Bechtels test? Wow, like low Kia does. Like,
I think I'm giving it the edge. I think you
could make the argument that you know, the grand context
is Joe. But there is a brief phone conversation there's
it passes like once kind of back to back with

(01:29:34):
like Betty and her friend who we do get a name? Oh,
we learn her name at some point.

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
Her roommate right, who like drives her to Norma's house.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
Yes, she is weirdly given a name in the car
when she's driving her. Either way, we do get her name.
We could argue she's sort of like someone's on the phone.
That's important because it's Norma. Yeah. And then it also
there's like two lines of dialogue at the beginning of
that phone call. The pass between Norma and Betty before

(01:30:02):
Joe inevitably comes.

Speaker 2 (01:30:04):
Up right, So it's a it's a loose, soft pass.

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
I'm gonna give it, but only because I just like
this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
But it does demonstrate how little women interact in the movie.
But that's not what this movie is about. If Norma
had more female friends, yeah, maybe she wouldn't be in.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
This I think she'd be a better shape. I think
her life would be in better shape.

Speaker 2 (01:30:35):
Yeah, But society, you know, conditions women to, as we've
talked about many times, be in competition with each other
and not have you know, support and camaraderie. So Norma
probably was just like although I think there are those
scenes where she like invites other Silent Film era stars,
including Buster Keaton playing himself, and a few other people

(01:30:58):
that I didn't recognize who they were, but they were
real Silent film stars, yes, yes, and a couple of
them are women. So she does seem to have some
friends who she plays bridge.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
With, so it doesn't seem like, say, Tice. I think
that that's like part of what makes that seem sad.
It's like they're all together, but they're all kind of
like again, makes me totally understand why silent film stars
would be like fuck you, Billy Wilder, because it does
sort of present the entire silent film actor generation is
kind of like checked out and zongked and just like

(01:31:32):
drinking shuffling their thumbs around, you know. And I also
understand why it's like, oh, well, that's a fun part
for Buster Keaton to take because he survived that era,
so it's like, well, you know, he's fine. So again
I get why it's a challenging, annoying thing.

Speaker 2 (01:31:48):
Yes, in any case, our nipple scale.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
Our nipple scale, no one talks about that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
Yeah, how come the nipple scale isn't the most famous
media metric of all time, which of course is our
scale where we rate movies zero two five nipples based
on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, keeping
in mind that this is a movie exclusively about white

(01:32:21):
people and this white woman and her white privilege, which
is in step with Hollywood at the time. Yes, there
was very, very very little space for anyone who was
not white to achieve any kind of stardom in Hollywood
in this era. But the fact remains that this is

(01:32:44):
an entirely white movie about this very privileged white woman.
In any case, the movie presents this very nuanced examination
of what an industry like Hollywood Wood does two people,
and particularly two women who are getting older, and it

(01:33:08):
acknowledges the various context that kind of creates this kind
of ego maniac character in Norma. And again, I do
think there could have been maybe a few more moments
of more explicit examinations of that. The movie presents it

(01:33:33):
visually without being too explicit about it. But again, you know,
there's always the like, you know, you don't want your
dialogue to be too on the nose and too preachy.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
Right, And I think that also like part of the
reason it may have been more obvious to audiences at
the time as well. Sure, right, yeah, because this movie
is all as shit, it is very quite old.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
But even so, the movie you know, presents these things.
And whether or not it how much judgment it is
passing on Norma is not super clear to me.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
That also is still like kind of eye of the beholdery,
like I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Right, because it's like she doesn't come up is very
you know, sympathetic or empathetic by the end on account
of her murdering someone and then being like completely dissociating
about it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
But also she's so iconic. I know so, but it's
also not like a I don't know, I think like
a trope. I'm getting burn dataup right now in contemporary
movies is like just a kind of like good for
her ending to a movie of like and then she
killed him, good for her, and that is well, we'll
cover it eventually, but that was like the end of

(01:34:52):
poor things for me, whereas like it's another you know,
good for her movie that I think, like whatever whatever,
different discussion, but like, yes, whether you're like or not,
it's not good for her at the end of this movie.
It's actually quite bad for her.

Speaker 2 (01:35:04):
It is not great for her. But yeah, yeah, I
don't know. I wish there was just and maybe this
is just like you know, us examining the movie in
twenty twenty four, a movie.

Speaker 1 (01:35:15):
From nine seventy five years later, Oh my goodness, yikes.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
But I think if this movie not that it needs
to be remade at all, but if there was a more.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26):
Modern future adaptations, there's like ben Broadway adaptations. I think
Glenn Close wanted Tony for playing Norman Desmond, which I
wish to god, I could see. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
Anyways, if there was a more modern retelling of this
story or a similar story, I think that it would
be more explicit about examining like gender bias and all
these things that the movie isn't super explicit about.

Speaker 1 (01:35:51):
But it's like also, I think, like fundamentally hard to
extract this movie from this time because of how even
though it's like you can up in history the things
we're talking about where it's like, well, what there's the
you know, silent film stars. You know, someone who is
famous thirty years ago, you'd be like, oh, easy one

(01:36:11):
to one is like a ninety sitcom actor that is
considered washed up now and trying to adapt with the times.
But it's also so specific to like, I don't know,
I think that that's why they're so like there was
just an attempt to comment on this in Babylon last year,
where like the jump from silent pictures to talk like
it's just so metaphorically works so well.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
Right, And it just reminds me that we still need
to cover Singing in the Rain because that is also
a movie about the transition from silent era movies to
talkies and how a lot of actors struggle to make
that transition and are discarded along the way. Anyway, Sorry,
really quick, So Sunset Flo.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
I did know this because I was recently I don't
know why, like bi annually I have to like watch
every video that exists of Glenn Close. I just love
glennon Close. I mean, and you're right to do that.
Over the holiday break, I was just like, the time
has come, I need to once again watch five hundred
video essays about Glenn Close. So I knew that she
had played Norma in an Andrew Lloyd Weber musical adaptation

(01:37:16):
from the early nineties Whoa, and then so she played
the part in ninety three and ninety four, and then
again in twenty sixteen seventeen Iconic. But do you know
who's currently playing Norma Desmond on the West End is
Nicole Scherzinger of the Pussycat Dolls. And I just think that,
who oh, I would go see that. I kind of

(01:37:39):
baffling to me. But also, yeah, I'm in, I'm in.
I want to I want to see Pussycat Dolls Boulevard
bring in.

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
Loosen up my buttons, Baby.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
Loosen up my buttons.

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):
Joe Gillis, Yes, well I will finally say what my
nipple rating? Oh yeah, after so much preamble, hmm, I
want to give it three point five. Okay, it's a
very white movie, but it is handling this subject matter

(01:38:17):
with more nuanced than movies from fifty or more years
later handled this subject. So it's cool and interesting in
that way. So three and a half nipples, and I
will split them between Gloria Swanson, the actor who plays Betty,

(01:38:40):
which is Nancy Olsen, and I'll give Billy Wilder, who
hopefully was not problematic the way that basically everyone from
that era was by default.

Speaker 1 (01:38:57):
I did a light scared he he said some kind
of insulting things to Marilyn Monroe's intelligence that people feel
one way or another about. And also, you know he
was the seven year itch director that did the famous
skirt up shot. You know, right, He's not without sin.
But I, unfortunately am a big old fan. I want

(01:39:21):
to give this movie for it that feels too high
because of how cartoonish Norma is. But I also don't
want to go much. I'm gonna go three point seven
five because it's just vibe space. I think this movie
is fantastic. I think that there are elements of it
that feel studio notes thee I hope, like adding in

(01:39:43):
a love story between Betty and Joe felt unnecessary, especially
because as I was watching it, I was like, Betty
could easily be a male character. Yeah, and I don't
wish that, but just because of like, I just felt
like the layering on of the love story was not necessary.
One of the few things I really don't like about
this spoofee. But Norma is iconic again for all of

(01:40:05):
the complicated reasons we've talked about that also have to
do with the production and the time. You know, is
it reasonable that this is the best possible, you know,
prestige part available to a woman over fifty at this time. No,
I think that's incredibly fucked up. But it's an incredible part,
and it's like I feel like you for the most part.
And I know we've had discussions of the shades of gray,

(01:40:27):
you know, sort of within that, but like you are
given context for the ways in which Norma is a
product of her environment, and it is not empathetic to
her environment to the point where this movie actively makes
a famous director look bad, which is amazing. I mean, like,
I can't really think of a contemporary example of that
happening in such an explicit way, like it's a you know,

(01:40:51):
big old cautionary tale about why it's a heap of
garbage to work in the entertainment industry, and you know,
fair enough, I mean, not wrong, not untrue. And I
also I mean, I think I know that Billy Wilder
is kind of known or was known for a long
time of being somewhat cynical in his outlook of the world,

(01:41:12):
where it's like there's no suggestion on how to improve
the entertainment industry. But I don't think that that's the
job of the movie, you know. I think that it
really paints a bleak picture of the Hollywood system at
this time, and like it works, and I think the
fact that it is age this well speaks to how
little has actually changed. True. So I yeah, I just

(01:41:37):
I think this is a wonderful movie. Three and zero
point seventy five nipples still got a lot to say.
I'm going to give one to Norma. She did what
she had to do. I'm going to give one to Betty.
I'm going to give one two hmmm.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
I give one to Hoguy, of course, Hogg guy.

Speaker 1 (01:41:56):
Where's my hog? Eye spin off. Now that we're we're
scraping the bottom of the barrel of ip, Like, ha, guy,
what about that guy?

Speaker 2 (01:42:06):
Let's give him six seasons in a movie. I'm gonna
take back everything and give my three and a half
nipples to the dead chimpanzee.

Speaker 1 (01:42:14):
Oh bless, they're hard. We didn't, we didn't, we don't know.
And then I'll give my point seventy five cute Billy
Wilder because God damn, I love him. I can't wait
to cover the apartment. I can't wait to cover some
like it hot and that Sunset Boulevard, Baby, I'm gonna
celebrate by walking down Sunset Boulevard and buying one diet coke. Yay,

(01:42:40):
that's my Sunset Boulevard. Walking down the street and getting
a diet coke four times a day? Why because I
can't have more than one soda at my house? Why
obsessive compulsive disorder? Fair.

Speaker 2 (01:42:53):
I'm gonna walk down Sunset Boulevard and Nerd Mount used
to be on Sunset Boulevard.

Speaker 1 (01:43:00):
RP, Folks, It's a long street. It's many miles. I
was like, also, the Sunset Boulevard normous living on is
not the Sunset no, we live on the PP side
of Sunset Boulevard. Yeah, but I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:16):
I imagine she lives in like the Beverly Hills.

Speaker 1 (01:43:21):
Yeah, would you know all that? If you take the two,
if you're a buzzhead like myself, you take the two
far enough you'll get to normal zone. But yeah, we're
we're closer to downtown. Anyways, you didn't ask. Uh. This
is a great movie. I would highly recommend. And also
it's streaming for free on the Internet Archive. If you
haven't seen it before, you can watch it for free

(01:43:42):
right now. Mm hm. Anyways, that's our show year. You
got a Shrek, you got a Sunset Boulevard, and next week, spoiler,
you got May Decemba. We're casting a wide net this year,
so enjoy. Indeed, you can follow us on all the
normal stuff. You can follow us on Instagram, you can
follow us on x and you can also subscribe to

(01:44:04):
our Patreon aka Matreon. Great way to start the year
five bucks a month at yourself. Treat yourself. It's five
bucks a month. It gets you access to two bonus
episodes a month with Caitlin and myself, and you also
get access to our back catalog of over I think
officially over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes, so you'll
be delighted and infuriated for days on end.

Speaker 2 (01:44:29):
So check that out and go to our link tree
link tree slash Bechdall Cast to grab those tickets for
our upcoming tour once again. It's San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin,
and San Diego. Will be in those cities in early February,
so check our link tree to look at all the

(01:44:51):
ticket links and the dates and the details. So we
hope to see you there. Yes, and you can also
go to teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast to
grab some merch. So what you're gonna want to do?
Grab some merch, wear it to the live shows and
then we'll take pictures together and it'll be so cute.

Speaker 1 (01:45:11):
Exactly. In conclusion, we love you, Happy New Year, Happy
twenty twenty four. It's gonna be such a regular year.
We can feel it. So normal, so norma, so norma,
so normal. Goodbye, bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:45:31):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo in Merch
is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

(01:45:53):
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