The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe (2005)

This week, Jamie and Caitlin open the wardrobe in the spare room and head into Narnia to discuss The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (2005)!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the doecast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy Zephy and Beast start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Caitlyn, Yes, Asla, you got it. Uh, do not cite
the Deep podcast to me, which I was there when
it was recorded. Mm hmmm, I wrote that one down.
Thank you, thank you. Actually we should pause because I'm
assuming the listener is applauding.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, like uplorious laughter.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm like Cynthia Arrivo.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Glorious get it, it's a lion.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yes'm I'm doing. I'm doing what Cynthia Arriva does at
the end of the Wizard and I it literally pause
for applause, assuming that everyone is cheering and she's right,
and so am I.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yeah, thank you, applause, applause, clap, clap, clap, and now
calm down, everyone, settle down.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Easy, easy, plot incoming. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
My name is Jamie, my name is Caitlin, and this
is our the Chronicles of Narnia, The Lion, the Witch,
and the Wardrobe episode.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Get ready because we're all going to become Christians today,
We're going to become lion fearing whatever. So this is
our podcast where we take a look at your favorite
movies using an intersectional feminist lens and the Bechdel Test
as a jumping off point. But Kitlin, what the hell

(01:38):
is that? I'll tell you what. C. S. Lewis wouldn't
give a rats ass, But let's let the people know.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Sure, it is a media metric created by our best
friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel. There are
many versions of the test. The one that we use
is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names?
Do they speak to each other? And is their conversation
about something other than a man or a male lion?

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Exactly? Yes, Liam Neeson lion, and we'll talk about Lion Nissan,
we'll talk about Lion Nison. Is that anything was very
impactful to me. It's so funny when I was trying
to think of what is another I feel like we've
talked about it recently. A movie that's trying to make

(02:25):
you religious but then just ends up making you horny.
Because that is my experience of this movie. This movie
I did not successfully make me believe in like the Bible,
but it did successfully make me horny. I'm trying it'll
come to me. But there's another like important movie text
to me that is ultimately trying to be like Jesus
is real, right, and you're just sort of like, oh,
I was I mean, was it Jesus Christ Superstar? Oh? Yes, okay, Yeah,

(02:50):
it is like something that you're like, oh, I'm supposed
to be thinking about the Bible, but I'm actually just
thinking about having sex with Judas kind of the opposite
intent of the intended effect. Sure, sure, anyways, this is
our Chronicles of Narnia episode. If you are a member
of our Patreon aka Matreon, and you should be yes,
this is a This is a quick plug. Five dollars

(03:12):
a month gets you two bonus episodes at the Metical
Cast a month on a theme of yours or sometimes
are choosing depending on the month. There's over almost two
hundred episodes of backlog, so if you have if there's
a movie we haven't covered on the main feed, there
is a really good chance we have covered it over
on the matred And it's a very fun community. We've

(03:33):
been doing it forever and yeah, it's the holiday season,
give a gift to yourself, give a gift to someone else.
But so we this the genesis of this episode.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Hmm, yeah, exactly, that's that's a part of the Bible.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, holding for applause once again.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah again, Calm down, Calm down, everybody.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Okay, Okay, more revelations in coming, folks. Okay, I'm gonna
tap up pretty soon, because I really know.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
I was like, can I name another book of the Bible? No?

Speaker 1 (04:06):
I can't, Copeter, No.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
John, John? Is there a John in there?

Speaker 1 (04:12):
There is? There's definitely a John. Yeah. Name It's like whatever,
It's just like names of the Bible. It's like calling
role in a second grade classroom in like nineteen ninety five. Basically. Yeah, anyways,
what we're Oh, so this began over on the matread.
We were thinking of some wintery holiday coded movies that
we haven't covered over the years, and Narnia. There was

(04:34):
just such a ridiculous appetite for this movie that we
were like, we got to bring it to the people.
Much like the Word of Christ, we need to bring
it to the people.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, we're missionaries in that way. We are, we're podcast missionaries.
Oh god, you know what I bet that there are
people who say that with complete sincerity.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, well we'll get we'll get into it. I listened.
I had to listen to a lot of Christian podcasts
to prepare for this, oh my, and some were actually
very helpful in any case. So this started on the Matreon.
So we're we're covering this here, but we are just
to close the loop on the plug covering two other
holiday classics over on the Matreon that our community really

(05:14):
wanted to hear about. Those being The Family Stone Rip
Diane Keaton and Black Christmas Rip. I have to assume
a good chunk of that cast is a pretty old movie.
It was made in the seventies. So yeah, but two
movies that I don't know, Like, we've been talking about
this a lot as we approach our ten year anniversary.
There's a lot of movies that you would think we

(05:35):
would have covered by now, but but we haven't, and
we're having a great time. This movie included indeed, Caitlin,
what is your history with this movie? And also just
the Narnia Expanded Universe.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
Sure. So at my house growing up, we had the
box set of all of the c s. Lewis Narnia books.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Same same is the one that you have at your apartment,
your childhood copy, because I think I had the same set.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
It is not my childhood copy. I don't know where
or when I acquired this, but there is a little
price tag on it that says eighty cents damn. So
I think this must have been, like.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
That's the going price for the word of Christ. Brutal, brutal.
This is the one with like the little like aerials
shot of like.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Mister Tumnus, right, yeah, and he's got his little umbrella
and his packages. Yeah. I think this was maybe purchased
at a yard sale or something for eighties. I don't
know why it.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Only cost eighty cents salesrep, but that, like whatever, that
was my childhood I had the box set. I don't
know I have that, but for some reason, I think
it was a street book. I have all seven in
a paperback with Tilda Swinton on the cover, and so
that was what I used for prep and it felt
good nice. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
So I did read the line The Witch and the
Wardrobe when I was a kid, I don't remember what age,
and then the the only other book in the series
that I read was Prince Caspian, and I remember liking
it more than I liked The Lion, The Witch and
the Wardrobe. Really yeah, but I couldn't tell you a

(07:13):
single thing about it. I have no idea what it
was about. I can tell you I was just like,
I think I like this more than the other one.
It is more like adventury, I feel like it is. Yeah,
Prince Caspian is good.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
I don't know. I wanted to so for listeners, just
for context, like this whatever. I mean, like we're not apologizing.
This is people right there, like doctoral feces on C. S.
Lewis and these books. There are so many things we
could have done to prepare for this, and we just
you know, it's a weekly show. We weren't able to
do all of it. I wish I had had time

(07:46):
to rewatch because I'm honestly not sure if I've seen
Prince Caspian. I know I've seen Voyage of the Dawn
Treader because maybe Will Poulter is in that. Oh Andy, Yeah,
this was just a series that made me very as
a kid. So, okay, so you read you read two of.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
The books, Yes, but I remembered The Lion, the Witch
and the Wardrobe and its whole narrative far better because
I think it just like the cultural osmosis of this
story is like just way more in the zeitgeist. Sure,
so I was pretty familiar with the story going into
watching this movie the two thousand and five adaptation. What

(08:28):
I had never seen, and I don't think had ever
even knew existed was the nineteen eighty eight BBC Mini series.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I am so curious why this was the route. This
was your this was your over the top prep route.
What drew you to this series?

Speaker 3 (08:44):
I'll tell you why. Okay, the comments on the Matreon
poll when it was clear that this movie was like
winning by a large margin.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, to the point where we were like, we can't
even pay all this. It feels wrong.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Right right a lot of people and the comments were like, well,
you also have to talk about the nineteen eighty eight
BBC mini series, And I was like, what, I had
no idea that was even a thing because I grew
up in America. God damn it, I'm not watching BBC.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
None of my business.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
And so I took it upon myself to watch this
BBC adaptation and I had the time of my life. Really,
this damn thing. The costumes. It I would say, it's
not like good, but it's so it's can'ty, it's ridiculous.
The effects are horrible, the costumes are horrible.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Every clip you sent me more baffling than the last.
I do want to watch this because it sounds like
it just it just is like, you know, we have
forty dollars, let's see what we can do.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
It seems simultaneously very low budget and very high budget
because they're like the costumes and the sets seemed expensive.
But then also the camera does not move. They put
the camera in one place and then they never like
there are no dolly shots, there's no crane shots, there's
no like maybe a pan or a tilt here and there,

(10:09):
but it's just like this stationary camera and then stuff
happens in front of it.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Huh.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Anyway, So as I was watching that, I was simultaneously
rereading the book. Yeah, so I would like read a
few chapters of the book and then watch the like
corresponding episode of the mini series to prep for this,
And I did that about ten days ago and whatever.
I'll say a few more things maybe about the BBC adaptation,

(10:37):
but it's a very very loyal adaptation. It's basically identical
story beats. Most of the dialogue from the BBC version
is directly like word for word, lifted from the book.
So it's a very, very very faithful adaptation. But anyway,
so I'm jumping all over the place. I read the
book as a kid. I saw this movie, the two

(11:00):
thousand and five adaptation, around the time it came out,
I think, probably in theaters.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay. I was like, that's.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Fun, but it's no Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
So well, which and these these two writers are very connected.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
They're BFFs.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yes, the boys they're and they're always bitching at each
other about something or other. Did you know that C. S.
Lewis is the basis for Oh my god, what is
the Lord of the Rings? Tree character tree tree Beard,
tree Beard? That's C. S.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
Lewis. Oh fun, okay, yeah, And Gerard Telking's like, look,
I think you're annoying.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
You're loud at annoying. This is you. You're a tree.
And he's like, oh, that's pretty awesome. King. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Anyway, so the movie I thought was fine. The main
thing I remembered was Tilda Swinton.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Which oh so impactful.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Tell me about it. Yeah, so I saw the movie
once around the time it came out. I watched it
again with our friend Bryant last year around the holiday season,
and then I watched it again twice to prep for
this episode. So that is my CS Lewis Narnia experience.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Awesome. What about yours, Genie? So I believe I was Hmm,
I read all the books. I had the books as
a kid. I have like a very strong memory. I
think it would have been before the movie came out,
maybe even in anticipation of the movie, either right before
or right after. I'm pretty sure before though, we would

(12:29):
go up to Maine to see my grandma, and I
really felt the need to hide from my family as
much as possible. And this was a big deal for
me because when we went up to Maine to visit
my grandma, I could have my own room that had
a door, and at my house I had my own room,
but it didn't have a door, and so any level

(12:51):
of privacy, I would go into a room, bring a
bajillion books with me, close the door, lock it, and
really just come out for food. And it was my
My family really did not like this quality helped me,
but but I you know, I didn't. I didn't want
to hang. I wanted to read. I remember there was
just like a trip where I locked myself in that

(13:12):
room and I read. Also had Narnia books.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, and I had the time of my life doing it.
I'm sure I missed out on some really beautiful family memories.
We'll never know, but I remember reading all of them.
I definitely like language and the wardrobe the best. I
don't have a really like descent, and and they're a
couple that I'm like, this one is boring. I read
through some of the synopsis just like jogged my memory.

(13:37):
I like, you know, I'm I'm kind of like I
like the ones with the Pevinc's in it and the
ones without. When it when we start to stray away
from the Pevinc's, I'm maybe not as interested.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
But it took me forever to realize that that's their
last name. I was like what, and then it yeah,
it's the four kids, right.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, yeah, when it's not the four kids, And like
you get into there's like a character named Jill Pole
who comes in at some point. There's a character named
Polly there's used to scrub that's a little bl polter
character that's their cousin. Okay, so there's like this whole
expanded universe of kids because there are like Narnia, I
don't know whatever, we'll talk about it. Because Narnia has

(14:15):
deep ties into like Christian storytelling and biblical storytelling, which
I don't think I was really aware of when I
was reading them.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
I definitely was not.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
I think maybe after the movie came out. So when
the movie came out, I was twelve and anything would
make me horny, and so I I think I never
I'm so surprised I haven't brought it up before. Maybe
I did years ago or something. But my two like
important horny posters I had as a kid were the
Alfred Molina Spiderman two poster duh, easy of course. But

(14:47):
I also had the Chronicles of Narnia poster with the
big as land on top. And I would kiss Asa
before I would go to bed. But it wasn't it
wasn't a sexual thing. It was like I just respec
to him so much. I don't know what it was.
I would kiss the poster before mead. That's all I
can say.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
Incredible.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Uh, Yeah, I had a crush on basically everyone in
this movie. Even though it's kind of boring, it is
like a very viby, like you're asleep kind of but
you're also awake. I would kiss Aslan. I kind of
had a crush on Edmund, even though he's a menace
to society.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Oh this little shit.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Definitely had a crush on Telda Swinton and definitely had
a crush on James McAvoy, mister Tumnus. I was like,
I was all in on James McAvoy, mister Tumnus. I
was like, what if I was the little angenue that
met mister Tumnus And then he was like, you want
to be my best friend? Like it was, I know

(15:44):
I'm not alone there. I know I'm not alone there.
Do not contact me if you feel similarly, but you
know you were seen.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
So yeah, I had a crush on everyone in the movie.
Really liked it. But then I guess it's like I
think of this movie series as like the first movie
was really big, and then the second ones I like,
I don't even think I saw the second ones in theaters.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah, they like diminishing returns on the sequels, and.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Then they didn't finish. I mean, and now I'm very
curious because Greta Gerwig is making a huge Narnia movie
that's gonna come out next year. Yeah, and you know
I'll be there. I'll be there. I'm curious what she
does with it. I don't think you can really top
James McAvoy, mister Tumnus, but I invited her to try.
I invited her to try, and so for for my

(16:29):
prep for this, I revisited the movie. I had reread
the book last year, but I went more in on
the UH symbolism side and the C. S Lewis lore side,
so we can sort of talk through it a little bit.
I feel there's again C. S Lewis, there's just like
so much stuff written about him, and with a short

(16:51):
amount of time. It's actually weirdly hard to research because
a lot of the sources you find are very Christian
and so they're is like an extreme tilt to the
way his work is presented. So it's hard to find
what I would consider to be like slightly more objective sources.
But I did my best.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Sure. C.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
S Lewis, I'll tell you what a weird man. A
weird weird man. It's hard for And also, like listeners,
if you have. You know, there's been many biographies written
of him, so these are just broad strokes. My takeaway
was that he is prejudiced in many of the ways
you would expect for someone born in eighteen ninety nine,

(17:34):
but not in all of the ways you would expect.
I think that the main things are and they're also
you know, prejudices that bear out in Christianity where there's
like something called like the C. S. Lewis Foundation or whatever,
like it's a Christian organization where they're still trying to
figure out whether they're accepting gay people or not, like
that kind of like religious homophobia. Like, yeah, that does

(17:59):
feel present. And as we'll talk about, his views on
women fluctuate throughout his life in a way that is
kind of interesting, okay. And then there's just some fun
facts that I was like, hmm, can I tell you
by CS Lewis fact that really I was like, what's
going on there?

Speaker 3 (18:17):
Please? Okay.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
So his mother passed away when he was quite young.
I think he was like ten eleven something like that.
Then he because he was born in eighteen ninety nine,
he of course is drafted into World War One, makes
friends with this guy named Patty and Patty and him

(18:40):
make a pact, and Patty is like, if I die
in World War One, will you make sure that my
mother is taken care of? And C. S Lewis is like, ah, yeah,
I don't have a mom. Like that's really nice. Then unfortunately,
rip Patty, Patty dies at war, and then C. S
Lewis enters a three decade long romantic relationship with Patty's mom.

(19:06):
Patty's mom. It's it's a it's a lot going on.
It's like yeah, and and kind of what I was
enjoying as I because I watched a like whatever, like
any biography on C. S Lewis, I read a lot
about his life, and really, no one knows the right
way to frame this because it's so weird where it's
like they're two consentic adults, but it feels pretty fucking weird.

(19:30):
But anyways, he he was twenty one, she was forty six,
and they were together until her death. Wow, so he
just was hooking up with his friend. But I'm just like,
certainly that was not what Patty had in mind.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
But he's not what he meant when he said, take
care of my mom?

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Are we? Yeah? Take care of her?

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Come on, wink.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
I just don't you know, I is it? You know,
I guess he's not around to complain, but I it
was like kind of disrespectful to Patty to be like,
I'll take care of your mom already. Whatever. You know.
It seems like they were happy. And then later in
his life C. S. Lewis he got married again. Oh yeah.
The other work of C. S. Lewis that I've read
that I actually really liked was he wrote this very

(20:19):
short book after his his wife. But he was never
married to Patty's mom. They just had a thing for
thirty years. And then he did get married not too long,
like when he was older, to this woman that a
lot of people were like, is that That's why? I
was like, he kind of got cooler as he got older.
He married divorced Jewish American woman, which basically everyone in

(20:43):
his life was like, you can't do that, and he's like,
watch me, but you're so Christian, right right? And then
like he was like a hardcore Christian and yet I mean,
like many Christians, was very lucy goosey of like what
applied to him and what didn't sure, But in ways
that seemed mainly I mean, whatever we'll get into He
is certainly guilty of a fair amount of misogyny, but
in this marriage, it seemed like it was very happy

(21:05):
and that she was I don't know, like it seemed
really lovely. And he wrote a book when she died
pretty suddenly and is called a Grief Observed, and it's
very similar to like Joan Didion's like The Year of
Magical Thinking, like very written like in real time after
losing his spouse. And I just think it's really beautiful.

(21:25):
So if you're in grief mode, I would recommend it.
But yeah, weird guy, we'll talk more about him. That
was so I kind of went into the Lewis zone.
I mean it sounds like you had more fun.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Honestly, yeah, I did none of that, So thank you
for doing that research. I really just watched that BBC
mini series and laughed my ass off anytime mister Beaver.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
Was on screen.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
He's still big, he's human size, souse, it's a human
in a beaver costume, just waddling around being like I
found them.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
I've found the Sons Adam and the daughters of Eve.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
And you're just like, what is going on?

Speaker 1 (22:04):
God? What a gift? But a gift. Well, let's take
a quick break and we'll come back with the recap.
And we're back, okay.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
Here is the recap of the line, The Witch and
the Wardrobe two thousand and five. It is World War two.
So four children, Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy are sent
from London during the Blitz to safety in the English

(22:45):
countryside to stay with a distant relative called the Professor,
who lives in this huge, old downton abby ass mansion,
and the children start to settle in. Peter is the eldest,

(23:06):
so he's like, you know, the responsible leader of the group.
Lucy is the youngest, so she's the baby. She wants
to play games all the time.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Lucy is a legend. I love Lucy.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
Wow, you love Lucy?

Speaker 1 (23:21):
I wow, no one's ever said that before. I love Lucy.
I also just remembered I loved the actress who played her.
I just follows her on Instagram the other day. She's thriving,
she's like bisexual icon, winning like theater awards in London.
She's killing it nice. But little Georgie Henley, Oh, I
loved her. Her and her little Bob. Come on, she's cute.

(23:44):
She's so cute.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Then there's Edmund, the second youngest.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Who is now basically like a what I always forget
the like the names of the British Conservative Party. He's
basically he that actor Scandar Keynes is now like an
advisor for English Conservatives. Oooh yeah, kind of a bummer.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Well, I mean, based on his character of Edmund, I know,
it was all very surprised because it.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Was all there. I know, he's canonically aligned with fascism always.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, Edmund is a little shit. That's his
main character trait. And then Susan is there too.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Oh I that's not nice to Susan.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
I mean, it's not okay, it's not a reflection of
how I feel about Susan. I like Susan, but I
feel like the story is just like and she's here
as well.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
I do agree. I feel like if you like Susan,
you kind of need to like build some headcanon for
her because also, and we'll talk about this, she gets
written out of later books in a pretty pointed way,
which we can we can talk about after we talk
about the movie. Damn.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Yeah, okay, So those are the kids One Rainy Day.
Lucy's a just they play hide and seek, and she
wanders into a mysterious spare room or spare oom with
nothing inside but a large wardrobe. She goes inside the
wardrobe and it's full of these like fur coats as

(25:16):
well as an entire country.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Shames McAvoy topless. I'm like elbowing against the back of
any cabinet as a twelve year old, being like, where
is he at? Where's the at? But he was never
in there.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
So this wardrobe is this like portal to this alternate
dimension fantasy realm called Narnia.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
It's so awesome. It's right up there with like the
entry into Oz for me of like entering another world
and feeling so like practical and so magical, and it's
just it's just beautiful. I love It's great. I love
this shit right, It's so well done. And it's especially
because like pretty soon after you're like entering kind of
like Uncanny Valley Marvel territory. But it's like it's just

(26:03):
so pretty. I love it.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
And it's very cold and snowy and everything is snow covered,
and there's a lamp post that's like the landmark that
lets you know that, oh, you're near the entrance of
the Wardrobe.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Which legend has it, Oh that these whatever J R.
Tolkien and C. S Lewis best best friends, like jar R.
Tolkien is one of the main motivating factors for C. S.
Lewis to become a Christian because C. S. Lewis didn't
become a Christian in a meaningful way until his thirties.

(26:40):
But he was just hanging out with his boy JR. R.
Y and Jarr got him into it. But I guess
that whatever j R. R. Tolkien was like, I bet you
couldn't make something like an innocuous object feel really magical.
And that's where the lamp post comes from. Huh okay, yeah,
and guess what he did it? He did it and

(27:02):
he made feminist iconost and feminist icon mister Tumdus.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
Right, because the first being that Lucy encounters in Narnia
is a fawn named Tumnus. And he's like, oh my gosh,
are you a daughter of Eve? A human child? And
she's like, yeah, bitch, what do you mean? And he's like, wow,

(27:30):
I've never seen a human before. Why don't you come
to my house for tea? So Lucy goes to Tumnus's house.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
He's but well, he says, he does not really say tea.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
Though.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
He gets this little girl to come to his house
by being like, I've got it. I got pounds and
pounds of sardines at my house.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Like right, He's like, there's toast and cake and maybe
if you're good, I'll bust out the sardines, as if
that's like a selling point.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
And then Lucy validates it. She's like, well, if you've
got sardines, I was like wow, I like this is
like I.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Don't understand what's going on in the UK A British
children loved sardines.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Wow, the one way to lure a child. A stranger
luring a child into his home with the promise of sardines.
You're like, sure, Wow, I guess I guess it was
you know, economic downturn. You know it was hard and
I do. We'll talk about this, but I did appreciate.
I mean, this is like more I feel like it's
it's in the book, but it's more like thoroughly grounded.

(28:32):
In the movie of like the children are you know,
displaced and you know they're separated from their mom and
it's really sad.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
There's a scene at the beginning of this movie where
their mom takes them to a train station that kind
of looks like Paddington Station, and she puts these tags
on them that basically say, like here's the train stop
that these kids are supposed to get off at, and
here's their names, and like who's so supposed to come
and collect them? I think is like probably generally the

(29:03):
information that was on these And it's very similar to
in Paddington when Aunt Lucy puts the tag on him
and it says, please look after this bear, and then
he shows up at the train station in London.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
There really are kind of like four little bears being
shipped out to the country.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, it's just it's sort of like the opposite journey,
but it's the same sentiment as far as like these
small children are displaced. Yeah, they're refugees and they're like
seeking safety they ah.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, it really made me think more this time again. Like,
I don't know, I think if we have recorded this
episode ten years ago, I would have been extremely hostile
to the concept of faith as it's presented within these books.
But I don't know, I don't know, if it's just
I'm older, whatever it is, But like I do. I
did kind of appreciate it more this time around, where

(29:54):
it's like the grounding of like these kids are displaced
from their family, their refugees, and they're like kind of
looking for something to feel grounded in and believe in,
and so in the context of that, you're like, yeah,
it makes sense. True.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
So mister Tumnus is like, Lucy, I've got sardines at
my house, come on over, and she's like, you bet
UK listeners.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
Would this work on you there?

Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yeah? Let us know please, And she's like, hell, yeah,
I'll do that. So she goes to his house and
eventually Tumness confesses that he is in the employ of
someone named the White Witch, who is an evil woman
who has taken control of Narnia. She's the one who
makes it always winter but never Christmas ugh, and she

(30:42):
had instructed Tumness to kidnap any humans he finds, And
Tumness reveals that he is actively kidnapping Lucy, but he's
had a change of heart and so he helps her
get back home through the wardrobe back into the house.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
It's really sweet and I feel like is a great
sort of foregrounding of what I think Susan I agree
with you. Is like not a very well rounded out
or thought through character, but I really liked how like
Lucy from the very beginning is like I don't know,
like she's she is effective. She was like, no, you
can't kidnap me. Look at me. I'm so cute. And

(31:22):
then he's like, damn, you're right, you're right, you gotta go.
Like that scene was great.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, and then he's crying and she's like, here's my handkerchief,
like you need this more than I do, and their
besties and their besties from that moment fourth it's true.
So Lucy enters back through the wardrobe into the spare
room and discovers that even though hours have passed in Narnia,
no time has passed in like her world. And when

(31:51):
Lucy tells her siblings about Narnia, they don't believe her,
and Edmund especially is a shit about it, but they
like give her the benefit of the doubt. They investigate
the wardrobe, but when they, you know, open it up,
it just seems like a normal wardrobe. One night, a
short time later, a very determined Lucy goes into the

(32:14):
wardrobe again. Edmund sees her and follows her, and this
time Narnia is back. It's there in the wardrobe, and
we stay with Edmund as he starts to explore Narnia,
and who does he immediately encounter but the White Witch herself.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Literally Satan inserts Evan walks in and immediately a tried
look and it's his vibes. It's I'm just saying, Lucy
does not immediately attract Satan, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
But Edmund is Judas or something, and.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
So well, this is well we'll talk about it. Like there,
I think a lot of people are like trying to
figure out the one to one of Narnia and person
he has Lewis He's like, no, it's not one. Yeah,
there's like definitely like Aslan is like obviously Jesus, and
the White Witch is definitely Satan Codd but like outside

(33:12):
of that, there's not a ton of one to one.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
Right, So we meet the White Witch played by Tilda Swinton,
and it's a white woman with dreadlocks. So we're like,
we're like, beware.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
That's that's the truth. That is true. That's the kind
of a universal indicator of maybe do not trust. Yeah,
it is incredible to me that this is how an
entire generation of children learned who till this Swinton was?
I mean, this is absolutely how I learned who till
the Swinton was. Sure, it's like right up there with
like Antonio Banderas and spy kids with like an incredible

(33:48):
way to introduce a child to an iconic actor. M
so good. Yeah, I love those. Yeah. Perfect.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
The Witch tells Edmund that she's the Queen of Narnia,
and she gives him some magical Turkish delight, which puts
him under a spell, which basically makes him even more
shitty than he already is.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, but it's like, arguably it didn't take a lot, right.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yeah, And she tells Edmund to bring his siblings to her.
If he does, she might make him Prince of Narnia,
so he agrees. She leaves, and then Lucy shows up.
She's been visiting with mister Tumnus again, and Lucy is
delighted because now Edmund can vouch for Narnia existing to

(34:37):
Peter and Susan. But when the time comes, Edmund betrays
Lucy and says that she's making it all up.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh he's dirty for this. I hate. If there's one
bitch I hate, it's Edmund Pevensey. I hate that little asshole.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Yeah, and I kind of like, due to reasons we'll
talk about, I kind of love Peter because Peter's like
fuck Edmund.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Peter's t Lucy.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yeah yeah, And so Lucy is devastated by this, and
Peter and Susan go to the Professor, who, by the way,
is played by Jim Broadbent, who plays Paddington. Wow, so
similarities keep piling up.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
He's really great, and his character I don't remember. I
don't know, like if you countered this, but his character whatever,
there's a whole like Langwich and the Wardrobe is the
first book published in this series, but it's the second
canonically in the series when it's all written.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Out in like chronology. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yeah, so like story wise, the what's his name? What's
the Jim Bradbent character's name?

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Professor?

Speaker 1 (35:45):
I don't even know if he has a more specific name.
He definitely does, because oh, professor Kirk, Professor Kirk. If
I did my research correctly, in the first book in
the Chronicles of Narnia series, he is a boy in
that book and like whatever, something something. I think there's

(36:06):
an apple tree and with the wood from the apple tree,
they make the wardrobe, so he like went to Narnia
as a child, and the wardrobe has access to Narnia
because it's made from Narnian wood or whatever. So when
he's like he he haha, tell me more about it,
it's because he's been to Narnia.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah, that's that's heavily implied in this movie.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
But unfortunately, for my money, one of the more boring books.
I'm like, I don't need like tree Lore. I'm not
worried about where it came from. I made tree Beard
any day Lewis, I don't remember. I just like struggle
with fantasy. There's too many details. It's too hard for me.

(36:49):
But I don't remember, Like what is the vibe of
tree Beard? Is it like passive aggressive to be like
your tree Beard or is it kind of like nice?

Speaker 3 (36:56):
He I think is a generally liked character, but he
talks really slowly because he's a tree. Therefore I find
him kind of boring.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Okay, because the C. C. S. Lewis was like, from
what I could tell, was known to be like really
loud and yappy. Oh but I don't know. Anyways, there's a.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
Part in Two Towers when tree Beard rallies a bunch
of other trees or ents rather, and they're like, oh
my god, let's go kill Sarmon and then they attack
Eisengarde and destroy it and it's this really great sequence.
Yeah remember that, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
No I was like, yeah, so, okay, I'm sorry. I
just double checked my my stars the one wiki to
rule them all, which says yes. Treebeard's deep, booming voice
was directly inspired by C. S. Lewis's. Tolkien reportedly told
Neville Coghill, god, that's a British name, that he modeled

(37:56):
Treebeard's voice off of the booming voice of C. S. Lewis,
including the rum mannerisms, and that like it. I guess C.
Has Lewis had a wide gate. Men are so weird. Anyways,
let's go back to Okay, back to the story I'm Born,
So Peter and Susan, because Lucy is so insistent that

(38:18):
Narnia is real.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Yeah, Peter and Susan go to the professor to be like,
what do you think is going on? And the Professor's
just like, hey, maybe tried believing your sister, you little shits. Oh,
And they're like, oh, I guess yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
He's like, apologize, apologize, now bitch.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
Then one day the kids accidentally break some shit in
the house and they have to run away from Ms McCready,
who works for the professor, and they all end up
in the spare room and they hide in the wardrobe,
and sure enough they all wind up in Narnia, and
Peter and Susan are like, oh my god, so sorry,

(38:57):
Lucy that we did not believe you. You were so
true all along.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
And then Peter's like, Edmund, you're a little asshole, piece
of your piece of shit, and and he's right, He's right.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
So then they all head to mister Tumnus's house, only
to discover that he has been abducted by the White
Witch's Wolf Police Force for fratenizing with humans aka Lucy.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
I do feel like there's like a little bit of uh,
you know, real life fascism commentary going on here. I
particularly liked the line of like, I don't know, every
kid has the moment realizing this, they're like, she'll we
called the police. No, the police are doing this, and
they're like, oh, so we have to do something a
bat at, yes.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yes, So the siblings decide to try to help Tumnus,
but they're not sure what to do until mister Beaver
shows up. Your favorite, your favorite I do like mister Beaver.
He brings them to his house where he lives with

(40:05):
his wife, Missus Beaver. And what does she do well,
She cooks them dinner. Women be cooking, even beaver women.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Even beaver women. To be fair, you know, C. S
Lewis was kind of dating his mom, so it's kind
of like it's C. S. Lewis's views on women. And
I'm not saying that they're excusable. I'm just saying that
they're they're they're very particular because he's fucking Patty's mom
while he's writing this book, and you're just like whatever

(40:36):
they took in, I guess during World War Two they
the two of them took in refugees, which I'm sure
had some influence on this story. And there are stories
of like, you know, like young people who passed through
the house kind of in like a boarding house capacity
that were like he was really lovely and yeah they
had something, who knows, and they were together. They were together,

(40:58):
all right. I forget where that was going, but yeah,
I was like, it is like it is very you know,
gender essentialist for him to be like women be cooking.
But I'm like, is he just thinking like mommy's be cooking?
Are all women mommies? To him? Oh no, we don't know.
Which is still misogynous, but you know, just food for that.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
And speaking of food, they all sit down to missus
Beaver's fish and chips. It's no sardines, but I mean
I was, I was hungry.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
I was like fish. Oh, I love I love some
fish and chips.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
So during the dinner, mister Beaver tells the kids about Aslan,
a lion who is the rightful king of the land.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
He literally is like, while I've got you here, I'd
like to tell you about my one and only Lord, Lord,
say Jesus Christ, You're like, oh no, I knew. I
knew that the food's never really free.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
You know, it comes at a price. Aslan has been
gone for many generations, but word has it that he's
on his way back to Narnia to set things right.
Mister Beaver also tells them about a prophecy that when
two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve, the
two genders according to C. S. Lewis, sit on thrones

(42:16):
at the Castle care paravel that will defeat the White
Witch and restore peace to Narnia. So it's speculated that
these four siblings are who the prophecy is about. Then Peter, Susan,
and Lucy discover that Edmund has snuck out and abandoned

(42:38):
them at some point during dinner, and he's heading to
the White Witch's castle. And the only thing that really
can save any of them now is Aslan. So mister
and Missus Beaver and the three remaining siblings set off
toward Aslan. And this is where things start to slightly

(43:02):
depart from the book a little bit in that there's
like some more.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Like an added action sequence. Ye kind of yeah, it's
I wouldn't say it's thrilling. It feels very like studio notes,
like we need.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
We need a big action set piece right here.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
I'm not mad about it, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
So they set off and they're being chased by wolves.
The wolf police acab includes these wolf.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
Cops, includes the Michael Madsen Wolf.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Or whatever, the voice actors.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
The voice actors. It's kind of funky, yeah, mister Fox
Rupert Everett.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
Didn't know, yes of Shrek two fame?

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yes, Well, because this movie we have how could we
have gotten this far into it. Directed by Andrew Adamson,
the director of Shrek, Shrek two, Yeah, And can I
just say yes, that's range is range? That is range.
Shrek two comes out the year before this. I would
never in a million years guess this is the same guy.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
I know. Yeah, where are the fart jokes in Narnia?

Speaker 1 (44:12):
I think, you know? And the restraint there was strength
he shows. And I don't know what, I'm curious. Maybe
it's like one of those things where it's like he
just has so much money he does. He's like, whatever
Shrek residuals, you know, will feed my family for centuries.
But he really like does so he does Shrek, Shrek two, yeah,
and then all three chronicles and no directs the first

(44:34):
two Chronicles in Narnia movies, and then in twenty twelve
directs a movie called Mister Pip starring Hugh Laurie. I'm saying,
you're like, hmm, okay, that's none of my business. And
then a cert Di Silay movie, and that's kind of it.
And that's like kind of it. I think it seems
like he kind of produces.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
It's too yeah, producing, because he produces other Shrek properties
such as the Puss in Boots movies and the other
Shrek movies.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
I would be curious at like how involved he actually
is in those though, or if it's just sort of
like he's mister Shrek, so he's got to get a
credit on everything, Shrek Forever, right, Shrek Forever after you
can even say whoa which he mysteriously actually does not
have a credit on. No, he is the EP on
Shrek Forever after? Oh is he? Yeah? Oh yes it is? Yes,

(45:26):
I am okay, Yeah, shout out Andrew Adamson. Yeah, we
were not familiar with your game and then we were
and then you kind of stop directing stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
So well more men should stop directing stuff. So I'm
not mad about it.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
I'm not mad about it. I'm just saying the range
Shrek two two thousand and four Chronicles and Arria two
thousand and five, it's impressive.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
It is it is. And yeah, there's a Rupert Everett
voiced Fox character in this movie that I think is
a complete edition, not in the book at all.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
And kind of like for what, like I wasn't really
sure what this yeah, because I didn't remember if I
went through like a list of changes but like you're
sort of like, why, I don't know. I never want
a movie to have more CG animals.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
So right, right, yeah, but I do want movies to
have more rupert everet.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
So it's a toss up. It's complicated. Oh you know
what we need to talk about, and this is like
there's obviously there's not time right now. But Sarah Marshall
was visiting this weekend and I forget how we watch
We got to this. But are you aware of the
movie mister Wrong? No, okay, I was not aware of
it either. Is a rom com from nineteen ninety six

(46:41):
during Ellen DeGeneres pre coming out.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Oh right, this one, okay, I with Bill Pullman. I
know the poster, but I've never seen the movie.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Genuinely, one of the more unhinged things I've ever seen.
I think we should cover it on the Matreon at
some point because people like absolutely hated it, and it's
time and I'm not saying it's good. I am saying
I never knew what was gonna happen. Like I was
on the edge of my seat. You will not believe
the list of things that happen in the movie, mister Wrong. Okay.

(47:13):
The least of which is Ellen degenerous peek Ellen Right, Well,
like I guess, like the first phase of Ellen pre
talk show. She made two million dollars to be in
that movie, and she does accidentally look into the camera twice.
Incredible ten out of ten on the rampometer. But you know,
someday it would be interesting to cover on the Bechdel

(47:35):
Cast because Bill Pullman is giving one of the weirdest
performances I think I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Whoa Okay, listeners, really do you want that? Do you
want us to talk about mister wrong?

Speaker 1 (47:45):
We will because yeah, I mean you we could, we could.
I would watch it again. Okay, yeah, all right. Anyways,
back to the chronicles.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
Okay, so most of the siblings are trying to get
their way to Aslan and they're being chased by the wolves. Meanwhile,
Edmund shows up at the Witch's castle and she's pissed
that he came alone since he was supposed to bring
his siblings, and she's about to kill him or maybe
turn him into stone because she loves doing that.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah, she kind of like it feels like you have
like a weird James McAvoy, like han solo carbonite guy.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Yeah, and Edmund's like, no, wait, the beaver mentioned something
about Aslan, So now the Witch knows that Aslan is
coming back to Narnia and she really does not like this,
so she takes Edmund to go looking for the others
so that she can kill them to prevent the prophecy

(48:44):
from coming true. And Edmund is finally starting to realize
that maybe the White Witch is not very nice and
that maybe he shouldn't align himself with fascism.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
He's a bit dense, isn't he, it it, and really,
like many before him, and you know, I'm sure that
this is commentary of some sort. He really only starts
to be like, maybe I shouldn't do this when it
starts to affect him personally. It is when he's thrown
in jail that he's like, wait, maybe I don't like this, right? Yes.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Meanwhile, the children and the beavers, they're still like journeying
toward the stone table, which is like Asland headquarters. The
Witch catches up with them in her sleigh. But wait
a minute, it's not the Witch. It's Santa Claus.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
I always forget that Santa is in this movie. It
is so weird that Santa is in this movie. I
like it, but you're like, why is Santa in the movie.
I mean Santa knows God? Like what do you mean? Well,
Santa feels kind of I think if Santa's kind of
his own thing, he's a secular guy. But no, not here,

(49:52):
Santa knows Jesus. He's like, Santa's like Jesus has returned,
Like I don't know's I see that scene and I'm
sure why not? And and he gives them weapons. He's like,
Merry Christmas, bitch, you're going to war. And then he's like, yeah, weird.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
He gives Lucy a little dagger and some magic healing juice.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Because women be healing, not fighting, as we will see
m M.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
He gives Susan a bow and arrow as well as
a horn, which is meant to like communicate with others,
because the burden of communications on women.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Women be communicating, women be witnessing the crucifixion. Like I
got lost after a while of like what women be doing.
But yeah, yeah, Peter gets a big soul. He's a
fifteen year old boy a lethal weapon, and he's like,
I just again, you're like things you're not used to
seeing Santa doing is that what happened in that movie

(50:54):
Red One? We don't know?

Speaker 3 (50:56):
Well I do know because I saw it.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Oh because oh I forgot you were the one. You
were the one person who saw it. I really I
that maybe maybe I'll maybe I'll watch it this year
if it's free, because I like those polar Bears were
They're so jagged. Not that that's a selling point. I
guess I made it sound like I gotta see because.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
I don't really remember what happened in that movie. I
think that I do remember not liking it. So Lucy
Losing it right, I should watch it? How bad could
it be, Lucy Lose? I think in it, I remember
the Rock is in it. The Rock is well, yeah,
he'll do he'll do anything. True.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
Yeah okay.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
So also Santa Claus is presence, his p R E
s E n ce, not his not his like gifts.
Hold for a clause again, Calm down, everybody.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Sorry, we've been doing this for a while. Not anyone
could do that.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
His presence in Narnia means that things are starting to change,
because before there was never Christmas, but now there's Christmas.
And we also see the snow and ice starting to thaw.
And melt away, and then there's this whole actiony set
piece of the siblings trying to cross a river as

(52:18):
the ice is breaking because it's melting and the wolves
are chasing them. But then they escape and they make
it to the Stone Table, where Aslan has assembled an
army of like centaurs and shit. Aslan comes out, and
of course he is the lion king, and he takes

(52:40):
Peter aside, and they gaze upon the land and he's
basically like, Simba, my son. Everything the light touches will
be yours.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
It's true. And you're like and I and and like,
you know, twenty years later, the cgi isn't great. Liam
Neeson does elect to just use his neson Lion Neeson
is using really just his speaking voice. Like, yes, Grant
was in the kitchen when I was watching the movie
and didn't even need to look. He's like, I didn't
know Liam Neeson was in this movie. I was like, well, yeah,

(53:12):
I guess he's not really acting. He's just talking. But
I don't know what it was. Something about that damn lion,
something about that damn lion. I just you wanted to
kiss him every night. I didn't just want to I did. Yeah,
no accounting for it.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
Look, no judgment.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
So they're all hanging out now at the Stone Table.
Then the wolf cops show up and they're about to
attack Lucy and Susan, but then Peter saves them and
he kills one of the wolves with his sword, and
so now he's a man or something.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Yeah, it gets pretty gender essentialist in the back in
the back half.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Yes me. Meanwhile, the White Witch is gathering an army
of her own, and she's also making her way to
the Stone Table. But before she gets there, a few
of Aslan's soldiers appear rescue Edmund and bring him back
to the others, and Aslan is basically like, don't worry Edmund,

(54:21):
you don't need to apologize, and kids, you just have
to forgive your brother for what he did.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Right, And I mean, look, I guess if you're the
other Pevincy's what are you gonna do. You can't really
kill your eleven year old brother.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
You can't kill him, but you can, I don't know,
hold him somewhat accountable for yes, I mean, I.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Be trading them. I think at this point it gets
tricky because we're like stuck in the Christianity of it all,
where it's like, Okay, you know, he's been forgiven, like
Jesus has forgiven him, and we have to do the
christ like thing and be like right, even though it's like, yeah,
he should be at least demoted. I'm not advocating that
we kill the kid, but like, you know, he should

(55:08):
feel he should. This is not the kind of kid
that I feel like learns a lesson from being shown
grace and forgiveness by everyone. But you know whatever, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
So, then the four children prepare for the impending battle
with the Witch in her army. She shows up to
be like, according to the laws of Narnia something something
deep magic, any trader belongs to me, so Edmund is
my property.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Well, and then he says, do not cite the deep
magic to me, which I was there when it was written,
and it's like it is kind of iconic. I love
that line. It's pretty it's pretty sick. Yeah he he
kind of, you know, he really showed her.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Yeah. Then Aslan and the Witch have a private meeting
where some negotiation is made in which Edmund is spared
and no longer belongs to the Witch, but in exchange
for what we don't yet know, but we find out
soon when that night, Susan and Lucy can't sleep, so

(56:15):
they leave their tent and see Aslan headed somewhere, so
they join him for a while, but then he has
to go on alone, and Susan and Lucy watch from
afar as he goes to the Stone Table, where he
is awaited by the Witch and her minions, who tie
Aslan up, They taunt him, they shave him, and then

(56:39):
the Witch kills him because apparently he had bargained to
save Edmund's life by agreeing to give his own. So
he dies, and then the Witch and her army leave.
Susan and Lucy approach Aslan's body. They're devastated. They're crying.
There's mice doing through the ropes, blah blah blah whatever.

(57:03):
They then send word via the trees to their brothers
that Aslan is dead. So now Peter has to lead
Aslan's army to war with the Witch, who shows up
on the battlefield looking like a lion herself.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Really great outfit, really great outfit. I don't really care
about battle scenes in general. It's just not my culture.
Same goes for the Lord of the Rings movies. I
do feel like this movie was kind of marketed as
Lord of the Rings Junior for sure, which and I
think kind of the books were as well, which is

(57:42):
really funny that these two guys knew each other very well,
and that j R. R. Tolkien was sort of like,
why do you write books for kids? You fucking lose her, you.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Know, even though The Hobbit his first book was for kids.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
It just sounds like Jerr R. Tolkien was. I don't
know very much about them, and again, someone that people
write doctoral thesis on, so what do I know?

Speaker 3 (58:03):
But it seems like he had kind of a streak
of pettiness, very British pettiness to him.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
That seems kind of fun.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
We love men being bitchy to each other.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
So and it seems like these two were. Really they
were like both converting each other to various religions and
huge bitches like they were. It was a rich text
between them. But anyways, I like this battle scene more
than I like other battle scenes. I don't know, I
just wish that Susan and Lucy were allowed to participate

(58:34):
in it because it seems like the it seems like
the Witch is the only woman on the battlefield question.
I think so really bizarre that the one woman invited
is Satan, which feels pointed right right right.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
Yeah. Also, this battle scene, which is like a paragraph
in the book, yeah, gets extended into this long sequence
in the movie because it comes out in the wake
of the Lord of the Rings movies. So every movie
like this needed a hashtag epic battle.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
Which does manage to make this children's movie two and
a half hours long, which is like pretty.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
And also really violent. Like the violence in this battle
scene is It's not bloody necessarily, but you feel the IMpower.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
All war as hell. I kind of liked that though.
I feel like even as a kid, you're just like,
damn that. I don't know, but I also saw the
Lord of the Rings movies by that time, so maybe
it feels felt less. But yeah, it definitely didn't feel
like Battle Junior. It was pretty gory for kids.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
It was graphic.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Okay. So meanwhile, the girls are not allowed to be
in the battle, so they have stayed with Aslan's body
all night, and then they finally start to leave, and
as they do, they hear this thunderous crack and they
look up and see that Aslan's body is gone and
the stone table is split in half, and then a

(01:00:03):
resurrected Jesus I mean Aslan appears and explains that the
Deep Magic says that if a willing victim who has
committed no treachery is killed in a trader's stead, then
death can be undone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
And you're like, oh, cool, he knew that hacking no
one else did.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
So really convenient for this specific story.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
I think for stuff like this, this is where and
this is like, you know, we won't get into it
because it's like so pedantic and weird, But there are
certain even though like this book is these where, these
books in general are pretty massively popular in many Christian circles,
there are still hardcore people that are like, Jesus would

(01:00:51):
never be a lion, that's pagan. And the fact that
they say deep magic, even the word magic, oh makes
some you know, like super hyper religious people like lose
their mind. I'm like, he made Jesus into a lion,
that is net good for your project? You would chill out.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
M mm hmmm true. Yeah, Okay. So then Aslan takes
the sisters to the Witch's castle, where she has a
whole courtyard full of beings that she has turned to stone,
including Tumness, and then Aslan breathes his hot lion breath

(01:01:28):
on them and that brings them back to life.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Yeah, kind of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
And then back on the battlefield, the Witch is turning
all of the good guys to stone with her wand
so Edmund destroys the wand but then she stabs Edmund,
so he's dying. Then Aslan shows up with everyone that
he had brought back from being stone, and then Aslan

(01:01:52):
attacks and kills the Witch in what should be like
the big climax of the movie, but it feels very
very anti climax.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Which is wild because the like you're saying, the build
up is massive, yeah, and then the yeah, the big kill,
You're like like, oh, blanket, you ad miss it. But
you know Edmund got stabbed, so.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Right, and he's dying. So Lucy gives him some of
her magic healing potion that Santa Claus gave her, which
is a ridiculous sentence to say, amazing, and then he
is absolutely fine now because this story is obsessed with
bringing people back from the.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Dead or near dead.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Then the four siblings are crowned the Kings and Queens
of Narnia at the Castle of care paravel just like
the prophecy foretold, and peace is restored to Narnia, and
then Aslan focks off to somewhere else because he's God

(01:02:55):
or Jesus or something and he's got other things to do, but.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
He'll be back one day, just like they're always telling us.
And I like how mister Tumnus is sort of tasked
with having to explain that. He's like, yeah, you know, Jesus,
He's just kind of like, we don't know, maybe we'll
see him, maybe we want m m. And then he's like,
all right, do you want any more sardines or whatever?

(01:03:21):
And then we get that little moment with with Jim
Bradbent where he's like he he maybe you'll go back someday.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
Oh yes. So the last beat here, or the last
few beats here, are that the siblings rule over Narnia
for a couple decades. They become adults and one day
they're out hunting in the woods and they happen upon
the lamp post near the entrance to Narnia and they're like, hmm,

(01:03:49):
that's kind of familiar, what's all this? And then they
go and they find the coats and the next thing
they know, they're tumbling out of the wardrobe. Except they're
back to being children and no time has passed. So
imagine like growing into adulthood, living this whole life as
like whatever, like imperial.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Ass like yeah, but yeah, just like living being in Narnia,
living out an entire fantasy. It is interesting that they
make that detail because again, like we'll get into it,
but like Susan later stops going in Narnia, h And
I'm sort of like, well, yeah, I mean like possible
that she's over it. She sounds like she's really put

(01:04:33):
in a lot of time there. Yeah, but they make
it out to be this big well we'll talk about it,
but they make it out to be this big thing.
I'm like, you know what, You're allowed to move on.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Sure, but yeah, it's just so weird that like they
grow into adulthood, they're like in their thirties maybe, and
then they revert back to childhood.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Yeah, and they're like, oh, why, my dad, it's still
World War two?

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
Like yeah, because like no time has passed. So they're
still at the professor's house and the professor comes in
and says basically welcome back from Narnia. Did you have
a nice time? Because he's been there too, is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
What it's implied. The end, the end.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
So let's take another quick break and then we'll come
back to discuss.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
And we're back, all right, Where do we start? I
feel like we've started. I mean, we've like touched on
a lot of my bigger notes, like story wise for this,
which is that like I don't know, like it's not
as bad as it could be. I guess for a
movie that's like pretty faithfully adapting a book from nineteen fifty.
But I mean I think that the big sort of

(01:05:51):
sweeping things going on here are it falls down like
very very very traditional gender lines. Yes, gender lion, you
might even say, I guess with the except the White Witch,
there's like a little more going on there, but not
necessarily in a positive way. But if we're talking about
the kids, I'm sort of of two minds about it

(01:06:14):
right where it's like I was surprised that the girls
were doing as much as they were for a book
of this age. But there are those broad like they
are not allowed to go to battle. They are sort
of tasked with the emotional burdens of I read that

(01:06:34):
like Susan and Lucy in the like religious read of
this book, you know, are supposed to almost like represent
Mary Magdalen of like witnessing the death of Christ and
then like having to and then witnessing his resurrection. I
don't know, I don't know maybe but anyways, you know,
I think the big thing is they don't get to

(01:06:54):
go to war. Susan's character I thought was very kind
of She's constantly golden for like thinking too hard. Yeah,
where you know Peter, I mean Peter and Susan. It's like,
in some ways it's like just an antagonistic sibling relationship.
They're the two eldest. There is a moment that I
couldn't even tell how intended it was, but towards the

(01:07:16):
beginning when the kids are being put on the train,
where their mom is referring to Peter as a man
and saying to like look out for everyone, and Susan
is referred to as a girl, and it seems to
kind of bother her, Like I think that she wants
to take more of a leadership role. Maybe this is
me Headcandon yet, but like it seems like she wants
to take more of a leadership role that Peter has

(01:07:37):
been given as like quote unquote the man of the house,
which I do think it is intentional. He clearly is
struggling with like he wants to fight in a war
like his father, right, and like that is presented pretty unambiguously.
I don't think that there's a lot of thought into it,
but like, you know, it makes sense that he then

(01:07:59):
is very quick to enlist in the Narnia War or
whatever because he wants to be like Daddy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
He's like, oh, well, Santa Claus gave me a sword,
so I have to use it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
But I will say I don't think that this movie
boils down to being like fathers and sons like you
would expect. True, it is kind of like about Jesus
and a bunch of kids, Yeah, lions and children, and
I think there is I think of the four kids,
Lucy is sort of the most memorable, and also I

(01:08:32):
think in the world of the books because she becomes
the protagonist of three out of the seven books and
the other kids sort of fall by the way side.
A star is born twenty eighteen, but whatever, just keeping
it focused on this, I like that Lucy is the
kid who discovers Narnia, who sticks to her guns about

(01:08:54):
it exists, and that her siblings, with the exception of Edmund,
who we hate, apologize to her and you know, like
see her worth and value throughout. So I don't know,
I mean, I think the big thing for me is
Susan being underwritten and the girls are not allowed to
participate in the big action piece. But that's more of

(01:09:17):
a criticism of the movie than the book, because the
book is like, the battle scenes are so short.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Right, The movie takes a lot of liberties with the
battle scenes, so it easily could have made adjustments to
be more inclusive of the girls, but it doesn't. And
this is like, this is what like most of my
notes are about. So yeah, I'll just kind of give
my little spiel here. Where As we've said, this movie

(01:09:44):
is a fairly faithful adaptation with a few exceptions. As
far as the script seems to add a few, like again,
actiony set pieces, it heightens tension. It generally just makes
the story more cinematic and like an action y so
for example, like the part where the wolves are chasing them,

(01:10:07):
the set piece at the river.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Like all the clunky CGI stuff feels like it's expanded added.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
Yeah, yeah, because those beats are in the book. But
like in the book, the wolves are following them, but
they never really get that close to the children, Like
on their journey to the Stone Table, the kids do
have to cross the river, but in the book it's
not like the ice is breaking apart, the wolves aren't there,
Lucy doesn't almost drown. So there's these like.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
You can see it few changes. It's so like kind
of funny where it's like this movie is so clearly
in conversation with the very successful Lord at the Rings
movies that just came out totally. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
Absolutely, And then again, as we alluded to earlier, like
I'd imagine that one of the reasons that the battle
scene is so expanded upon for this movie is to
sort of like capitalize on the success of.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
The Lord of the Rings movies, which, like the Lord
of the Rings movies, you know, kind of famously include
women in battle scenes in key moments include one woman. Look,
I'm not saying it's great. I actually do think in general,
Chronicles and Narnia does pretty squarely better on just including

(01:11:22):
women in the story for sure than Lord of the
Rings for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
But in this movie, not in the battle. Actually, as
we've been talking about, so again, there's the big battle
at the end. And as I'm like rewatching this movie,
you know, through the beachdal Lens for the first time,
and I've just reread the book, I'm like, Okay, maybe
this adaptation is going to give the girls more of

(01:11:48):
a chance to participate in the battle, especially after Santa
Claus gives them their gifts, because what happens here every
time we.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Say Santa Claus, I'm just like, right, And Santa Claus
is in.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
The Santa Claus is in the movie as a character.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
He's warmongering Santa Claus like Mary, He's a merry Christmas,
go kill a guy, like.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
It's yeah wow. So so in the book, Santa Claus
gives Lucy the dagger and Susan the bow and arrow,
and then he says, hopefully you don't have to use
these battles are ugly when women fight.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
And this is a C. S. Lewis to get into C. S.
Lewis's attitude towards women very briefly, like there's to say
he's better than talking on gender isn't really saying very much, right,
But there are you know, throughout the Narnia series there
are a series of women protagonists, not just I mean

(01:12:54):
Lucy Pevensey is a major protagonist throughout. There's also oh gosh,
let me see if I can find the names of
these characters. But there's like no fewer than I think
three to four of the books where there are young
women at the front of the story. However, C. S.

(01:13:18):
Lewis himself for a great chunk of his life and career,
while it seems like, you know, on a one to
one basis, he was like not like out and out
like fuck all women, but very of his time where
the big thing with him was he was a professor
at Oxford and then Cambridge because British and he was

(01:13:41):
very against women going to I think it was Cambridge,
which it seems like, again it's so hard because there's
a people who are very invested in caping for him,
So this might be an overly generous read. It seems
like as he got older, and particularly once he married
a really cool woman, his views on gender evolved towards

(01:14:04):
the end of his life. But I think like for
most of his career he you know, tolerated women but
wasn't an ally, let's say, but did I don't know, sure,
it's tricky anyways, that's all right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
So in the book, Santa Claus is like, battles are
ugly when women fight. In the movie, this line gets
changed to Santa Claus simply saying battles are ugly affairs.
So this gendered language is removed from the movie adaptation.
So I'm wondering, okay, like if the movie is gonna

(01:14:40):
lean into the action and the fighting and we've sort
of removed this gendered line of Santa Claus is, will
the sisters be allowed to participate as much as the brothers,
especially because they've been given weapons. But the answer, as
we keep saying, is still no.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):
I mean I get why Lucy because she's so young,
I understand why she would not be put in the
middle of battle. But Susan seems to be pretty close
in age to Peter. She has a bow and arrow.
I think she uses it one time to kill Deep
Roy's character.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
I think that that is Yeah, it felt very like
that old school, like that mcsweeze article we used to
quote a lot where it's like she gets to do
one thing. Yep, I because you just read the book.
I reread the I don't remember the specifics here does
she get to use the weapon because it felt almost
like like, let's have her train with the Like we

(01:15:40):
see her training with the weapon. She very intentionally is like,
I have to go practice, yes, so that she can
use it once at the end of the movie. But
I was like kind of frustrated. I think for the
same reason of like, the movie is setting it up
so that they're.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
Involved, right, because also Lucy like flings her dagger at
the target like during the targer practice thing, and then
hits a bull's eye, And first of all, I'm like,
I mean, maybe she's a child protist gee at the
dagger throwing, but like she's also seven years old, So
are we sure about that?

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
I'm well, I'm willing to suspend my displate that Diva
can do anything to me.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Well, okay, sure, but yeah, it is. It is setting
it up because again, they're training, they're practicing with their weapons.
It seems like they're gonna participate, but pretty much not. Yeah,
the moment when Susan does use her bow and arrow
to kill the deep Roy character, it is to save Edmund,
So we do see you know, a girl saving a boy.

(01:16:41):
So that's something.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
Again, it's it's like more than you might expect, but
still not a lot, is sort of what it came
down to.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):
And then also so it does take Edmund a while
to join in the battle. He's sort of like standing
way off in the back in the distance with the
beavers and with what appears to be women's centaurs.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
The women's centaurs. I noticed this.

Speaker 3 (01:17:15):
Okay, so the man's centaurs they're fighting in the battle
on the front lines. The women's centaurs apparently are not
allowed to fight on the front lines. Like we're basically
not doing anything. One of them fires a bow and arrow,
the arrow turns into a bird that turns into fire,

(01:17:37):
and then like creates that sort of like fire blockade thing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
It's frustrating. I feel like this is very emblematic of
the two thousands of Like clearly these productions are aware
enough of feminism women in general that they're willing to
add these sort of like bread crummy kind of of things.

(01:18:01):
Susan gets to do something once a woman centaur does
one thing, and it's like, okay, so you know what
you're doing, Like obviously we know that but it's just
frustrating to see movies of this era, I mean and
movies and this era. I mean, this continues for years
and years and years, like this continues throughout the like
Avengers franchise. But it's just it's so irritating to see.

(01:18:24):
I didn't even pick up on the woman's centaur moment,
which is like you're like sure, but it's like it's
I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, it's almost worse than nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
The women centaurs are like relegated to the to being
way in the back with a literal child, and the
beavers like basically the people who can't fight for shit.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
Yeah, but I mean yeah, I was like, do I
want like Lucy, you know, out there with a with
a glock? No? No, so, but yeah, Susan, I mean Susan.
It just again they give you the little bread crummy moment,
but you don't really get the full you know, what
our character deserves and what it seems like the movie
is building up to, and so what I've seen a

(01:19:07):
lot in a lot of the Christian reads of this
movie that it is thought to be by some a
showing of deference and respect to the girls that they
are the ones that Aslan trusts to witness, like he
chooses them to witness this and to witness his resurrection

(01:19:29):
versus the boys. It almost feels like whatever if we're
going with the allegorical read that C. S. Lewis kind
of waffles on over the years that he's favoring Mary
Magdalen over the Disciples. Again, I'm like, not whatever, that's
just there's that. But I do think like if we're

(01:19:49):
reworking like this movie, like you're saying, takes a lot
of liberties, expands on a lot of stuff, just jush
the timeline and have them be able to be present
at the battle Aslan's whatever behind them whatever. That's like,
it's it's Narnia.

Speaker 3 (01:20:02):
Just make it up right, Like Aslan shows up with
the sisters and the rest of the army and then
and then that's when the battle maybe really kicks off,
Like right, not that hard to do.

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
Yeah, but I'm going to talk a little bit more
about Susan if it's okay, Yeah, please, So canonically, there's
a whole thing around Susan that a later generation of
fantasy writers, they all have something to say about Susan.
Pevensey and two of them are now deeply disgraced because
it's Neil Gayman and JK. Rowling. But Susan Pevensey. So

(01:20:38):
she is in let me be completely sure, she is
in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and then
she's in little bits of the other books. She's in
all of Prince Caspian. She is basically written out of
Voyage of the Dawn Treader. She has little parts in

(01:21:00):
The Horse and His Boy. But so in the Last Battle,
one of the Narnian books, we are given a reason
why Susan is no longer present. So Narnia, I don't
know it works. I think it's easiest to explain in
like polar express logic, where you like whatever, the kid
can hear the bell if they believe in Santa. If

(01:21:21):
they don't believe, they can't. So the way that Narnia
appears to work is that kids go to Narnia to
learn that Jesus is awesome, and then after a while
you're no longer able to access Narnia. I wasn't able
to find like a consistent reason why this is. C. S.
Lewis explains it, and because he had all these fan letters,

(01:21:44):
he would write He explains it at some points as like,
when you understand the importance of Aslan in Narnia, then
you can understand the importance of Jesus in the regular world,
and you don't need to go to Narnia anymore. But
the way he talks about Susan is this is how
Susan is talked about in the Last Battle. She's being

(01:22:05):
talked about by another young woman, Jill Poll. So they
frame it as if Susan has had a spiritual downfall
in a way a lot of people read as misogynists,
and I agree, okay, quote Oh Susan, said Jill. She's
interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipsticks and invitations.
She always was a jolly sight too, keen on being

(01:22:27):
grown up. Grown up indeed, said the lady Polly, I
wish she would grow up. She wasted all her school
time wanting to be the age she is now, and
now she'll waste all the rest of her life trying
to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race
onto the silliest time of one's life as quick as
she can, and then stop there as long as she can.
So wow, I know, like basically they're like, oh, she
came of age and now she's into silly woman stuff, right.

(01:22:52):
And the argument against that is that like, oh, well,
he's just writing about kids growing up and becoming interested
in adult things. But I think I think that what
chafes with that is Peter eventually can't go to in Narnia either,
and it's not framed that way even remotely. Edmund can
eventually not go to Narnia, like all of the kids
age out of Narnia at some point, which doesn't really

(01:23:13):
make sense because like you're saying their maturity levels like
all over the place, right, But anyways, it's been like
something that's been sort of talked about for seventy seventy
five years now about like it's generally thought that Susan
is done dirty in the books in general, because she's
underwritten to begin with, and then he just writes her
out over time, being like oh she's like too silly,

(01:23:35):
she likes lipstick too much, so she's actually not welcome
in Christ's kingdom anymore. You're just like, oh, I don't
love it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
I mean the way that like teen girls are the
recipients of so much vitriol for what they like, what
they're interested in speaking very generally here. But and it's
just like, well, that's just because the critics are old men,
are C.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
S Lewis? Okay, So I have a quote from C.
S Lewis that kind of confirms this. Misogynists raid of it?
He says, Okay, so this is from a letter he
wrote to a child because there were kids write again,
being like, where's Susan? I miss Susan? And he says, quote,
the books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She

(01:24:22):
is left alive in this world at the end, having
by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman.
But there's plenty of time for her to mend, and
perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end
in her own way. So you're just like, you know,
his explanations really do sort of bear out the worst
faith reading of that choice, and it sucks. Justice for Susan,

(01:24:47):
Justice for goddamn Susan. Yeah, Lucy, it doesn't seem like,
you know, she is sort of dealt quite as bad
a hand as Susan. But it's also I think just
because she's younger, and clearly C. S Lewis has a
bone to pick with like young women coming of age.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
I don't know, Well, he never saw it happen because
he went off to war and then he met true
he actually never met Patty's mother, who was forty seven
in her mid forties.

Speaker 1 (01:25:13):
That is so true. I like, this is so much
of C. S. Lewis's stuff. You're just like can be
kind of reduced to like this. You know, take everything
he says with a grown of salt because he had
like absurd mommy issues, which brings me to the Witch.
Let's talk about the Witch. Yes, please, mommy.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
I like her, I like, I mean, I don't like
her politics, I don't like her fascism, but I like
when she's played by Tilda Swinton. She's also a pretty
fun character in the BBC adaptation, Oh yeah, tell me,
I didn't write down the actor who plays her. The
costume is pretty wild and she's giving quite a performance.

(01:25:56):
It is like full camp. She's screaming all the time.
She's so mean and I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
I love it. I mean till this written, she's perfect
in this movie. Yeah, she's so good. She's so scary.
I love a good female villain. I know that that
comes with a lot of baggage. And I think it's
worth pointing out that, you know, in a world where
women characters are pretty sparse, all of the sympathetic characters

(01:26:27):
we meet in this world, with the exception of Missus Beaver,
are men. Jesus Aslan is a man. Mister Tumnus is
a man. Mister. You know, all of most the actively
kind characters we meet in this world are pretty much
all men. And the woman we know the best is Satan,
but she is also so Cundy, and like, it's not

(01:26:51):
like I was, like, I wish this character was played
by a man, because I don't. I guess what would
have been cool is to have, like like so many time,
a second woman who was allowed to do something other
than cook or like respond to men.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
Especially because so many members of Aslan's army are mythological
creatures and in this world maybe patriarchy doesn't exist. Why
not have the woman centaurs? Like there's like a general

(01:27:26):
it seems of Aslan's army who is a man centaur.
Why not have that be a woman centaur? Why not
be But like all of the soldiers in the army
seem to be like male coded, which again bonds and
centaurs and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
Does seem like something I mean, I think particularly in
The Horse and His Boy, not the book you would
expect to have some light feminist themes, but there is
a character named Erevus in that book who flee, who
runs away from home to escape an arranged marriage, then

(01:28:05):
sort of becomes this warrior, which is kind of cool,
except the fact that the culture she's fleeing is sort
of a veiled version of Islam, So it is c.
S lewis being islamophobic, Yeah, Islamophobic while trying to be feminist.
So it's just like it's a mess. It's all a mess.

(01:28:27):
I'm sure that there are Narnia books where there are
more women in this world, at least more than appear
to be in Lord of the Rings world. But regardless,
it's like, this is the iconic one and the woman
we know best is Satan and you know, objectively not ideal,
but I also am like, she's so good, She's so.

Speaker 3 (01:28:49):
Good, she's great, very reclaimable character, I think, And yes,
as far as adult women go. And then the two sisters,
they're children, but they are very active participants in this story,
more so Lucy than Susan, as we've discussed. But I
do appreciate that there's a component of this story which
is Lucy dealing with her siblings not believing her about Narnia.

(01:29:16):
And you can presume it's because Lucy is both a
girl and the youngest, because there's a long history of
people not believing women and girls and people not believing
children when they disclose something or have to like say

(01:29:37):
like this thing happened to me, absolutely, because you can
imagine that if Peter was the first person to discover Narnia,
he'd be like, hey, younger siblings, come with me on
an adventure. They'd be like, awesome, sounds great and definitely
sounds real. Right because it's Lucy, she's a little girl,
They're like, pishposh, there's no way that's true. And then

(01:30:01):
to the professor's defense, he is like, you maybe should
believe your sister. Let's logic through this.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
Let's take what she's saying seriously. Like, take what she's
saying seriously. I also like the scene. It's a very
short scene, but I liked the scene between Lucy and
Susan about growing up. I thought that that was very sweet.
It reminded me of like a lot of my cousins
where it's right before they like spend time with Aslin
and then Aslin dies, all very back to back to back,

(01:30:31):
but there's a brief Bechdel cast passing exchange between the
two of them that basically boils down to like Susan
being like, oh, I'm sorry, like we don't hang out
as much and because but it's more like a reference
to their difference in age and maturity, and Lucy kind
of pokes at Susan and is like, well, it's because
you're so boring now in the way that your you know,

(01:30:52):
elder siblings seem boring when they're interested in other things
in you. And I just thought it was a very
sweet moment. And again it is not much, but I
did appreciate that, you know, like in general, you do
get moments between sibling pairs in a way that I
think shows more thought than you would maybe expect, like

(01:31:15):
and I liked having that that the movie takes a
moment to be like, what is Lucy's relationship with her
older sister in the same way that and I think,
especially with Lucy, you have a very clear idea of
like what the distinct relationships are. I think between kind
of all the siblings, because Susan and Peter have the
sort of like eldest thing going where they both think

(01:31:38):
they're hot shit and think their sibling sucks, which feels
you know that scans right. Lucy and Edmund have their
like Edmund sucks. Everyone kind of hates Edmund. That's everyone's
relationship to Edmund is like we you know our parents.
You know, something happened at the baby factory.

Speaker 3 (01:31:56):
Well, there's a there's a reference in the book that's
not in the movie toward the very end of the
book that and again it's been like it's been too
many days have passed since I've read it, so basically
eighty four years. It's seeping out of my memory. But
the idea is that apparently something happened at school with Edmund.

(01:32:18):
We're not sure if maybe he was the victim of
bullying or something like that, but basically there was some
experience that he had at school that kind of that
was the catalyst for him to behave the way that
we see him behaving. Oh interesting, Okay throughout the like
first like two thirds of the story.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
Okay, well, that's actually like helpful to just have it
even contextualize a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:32:45):
It's literally like one sentence, but yeah, there is that
little bit of context. The movie doesn't include that, which
I understand why, Like it might have been like clunky
to include, right, But we just don't really know why,
at least according to the movie, why Edmund is the
way he is.

Speaker 1 (01:33:03):
Yeah, I mean, he's just like sometimes kids are little shits.
But yeah, I mean I think again, like I did
appreciate that whatever, all of the sibling pairings have a
distinct dynamic more or less, but unfortunately, I think it
is Susan who kind of gets the I always thought
of like Susan and Peter as like they were boring

(01:33:24):
to me. But Susan you get the least out of
out of them. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:30):
The nineteen eighty eight BBC mini series, I've already said
most of what I wanted to say about it, but
I was, like, I did spend three hours of my
one human life watching it, so the last things I'll
say about it. The episodes are directed by a woman, Okay,
Marilyn Fox, a TV producer, writer and director who mostly

(01:33:55):
worked on BBC programming specific to like like Chill's programming
from the nineteen sixties to the nineties, so she had
a pretty prolific career. And yeah, she directed all the
episodes of this mini series. Again, lots of goofy effects

(01:34:15):
and costumes. There's also a part where, so the part
of the story where Edmund has left the Beaver House
and is making his way to the Witch's palace. In
the book, he's having an inner monologue, which is tricky
to put on screen. And sure, you know, some writers

(01:34:36):
might have had Edmund just kind of talking to himself.
Some maybe would have included his inner monologue as voiceovers.
The two thousand and five movie kind of doesn't really
do anything. It just shows him walking without any sort
of indication that he's having thoughts or feelings. The nineteen

(01:34:56):
eighty eight adaptation chooses to do the worst option of
them all, which is to have Edmund talk to an
imaginary hologram of himself.

Speaker 1 (01:35:09):
Okay, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:35:12):
It's visually really bizarre and hilarious. This happens multiple times,
and so that's that. Aslan is an animatronic who talks
a lot, but his lips don't move. His head is
just sort of like nodding up and down.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
I kind of watch this.

Speaker 3 (01:35:32):
Also he can fly the part where he is resurrected
and then he takes Susan and Lucy to the Witch's castle.
He flies them there in the BBC version, So pretty
pretty cool stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:35:46):
I mean, yeah, yeah, I can't wait to watch it.
This sounds like the perfect I have a fever thing
to watch. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, I guess the last thing
there are four creditive writers on this movie is a woman,
so there you go, and Peacock and Peacock cool name.
She's got some other credits. But other than that, we

(01:36:09):
are really dealing with a pretty heavily male production team.
All things considered, I think what this boils down to
for me is it's like it is ultimately soft Christian
prop Baganda. But but I will say that it is
ignorable to me anyways. Like I don't know, it's not

(01:36:29):
so aggressive that you can't enjoy it. I do feel like,
I mean, Jesus Lion, it's pretty unignorable. But I do
feel like this is a take it or leave it
kind of movie, and I'm leaving it, but you know, respectfully, Sure,
I don't know. I still I think probably some of
it's nostalgia, but I still have a lot of affection

(01:36:51):
for this movie, and it is worth saying extremely white,
so so absurdly white.

Speaker 3 (01:36:59):
I think the BBC version might be better about being
more inclusive in its casting choices. It's all like background
characters and like fonds and stuff. But like, yeah, between
the two thousand and five movie and the BBC mini series,
neither adaptation has any meaningful diversity in the cast.

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
And that I'm hopeful, and I guess looking forward to
the Greta Gerwig interpretation, I hope it is a more
inclusive interpretation. And it seems like, you know, having a
woman at the Helm of Narnia. Hopefully we get coherent Susan.
Here's to maybe a coherent Susan next year.

Speaker 3 (01:37:41):
Yes, indeed, i'd imagine that Greta Gerwig's adaptation she's doing
Is she doing another line the Witch and the wardrobe?
Is she?

Speaker 1 (01:37:49):
What does she?

Speaker 3 (01:37:50):
This is like I don't know enough about this.

Speaker 1 (01:37:53):
I don't know. I just know it's been in production
forever and the first one is coming out in theaters
next year. Okay, I believe she's doing it in chronological order,
not publishing order though, so I think she's not starting
with Lion Witch in the wardrobe. Okay, but we'll see.
I mean, we'll see, we'll see next year. I'm like,
I will, I'll see anything she releases, Like I'm not

(01:38:15):
excited for her adaptation of this the way that I
was excited to see her adaptation of Little Women Her Barbie,
but you know, hopefully it's amazing. We'll see, we will see.
It passes the Bechdel test. It definitely does, not extensively.
But even that scene we were just talking about with
Susan and Lucy, that entire scene where they're talking about
their relationship and their relationship to growing up, I feel

(01:38:37):
like it is. Actually it is very plot relevant and
a very sweet moment. And I'm sure that there is
a pass with one of the two and the white
Witch and but their mother at the beginning. There's a
few passes as well. So not extensive, but it does pass.
I'm giving it to them. But what about the most

(01:38:59):
important metric in this world?

Speaker 3 (01:39:01):
Yeah, that would be, of course, the Bechdel cast nipple scale,
where we rate the movie on a scale of zero
to five nipples based on examining the movie through an
intersectional feminist lens.

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):
And I will give this movie like I think like.

Speaker 3 (01:39:19):
One and a half that feels free. Yeah, maybe two
again i'm feeling in the generous holiday spirit, but probably yeah,
probably only one and a half, mostly because this movie
had the opportunity. And again, if we're gonna like meet
the movie where it is, which we don't have to do,
but let's for argument's sake, say, Okay, this is a

(01:39:42):
movie that's coming out in two thousand and five. It's
coming out after the success of the Lord of the
Rings movies, which had lots of battle things, So we're
gonna expand the battle sequence of the Narnia movie, and
therefore there are opportunities to take liberties with how inclusive
the story is with especially the older the elder sister

(01:40:06):
Susan with her bow and arrow, and can she do
some stuff? If this is going to be like a
baddly actiony movie.

Speaker 1 (01:40:15):
And it feels like we're stuck in like Princess Leah Land,
where it's like she can do one stuff and then
she and then and then we're cutting her off.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
Yeah, I mean, even Princess Leah does more stuff than
Susan gets to do in this one movie at least.
But so, yeah, I there were opportunities that were squandered.
But again, if we are going to compare this to
the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which basically which has

(01:40:44):
like fewer women in far fewer narratively significant roles, and
in the movie adaptation of those, there were like female
characters who were drawn out of the like appendices and
like other material that J. R. Tolkien had written that
weren't even in like the source material of like the

(01:41:05):
Lord of the Rings books, Like I think Arwin it
was that barely in the books things were that dire,
like it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:11):
Was, it was that right.

Speaker 3 (01:41:14):
So this movie, in this story in general, is doing
better than that. The bar is low. And you know,
as we've talked about in past episodes, fantasy, at least
the fantasy that gets adapted to film in Hollywood is
quite male driven, very white, very like Anglo Saxon.

Speaker 1 (01:41:40):
Which vibes Yeah, which is improved, but not by as
much as you would hope over time.

Speaker 3 (01:41:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:41:47):
Also, I'm just so sick of big tent pole fantasy movies.
I'm like, how about we make them about no One?
I'm so bored. But yeah, that said, yeah, i think
I'm going to meet you at two. Taking into considerations.
It's time because I think for a fantasy series, it's

(01:42:07):
doing better than most other fantasy series of its time.
So I'll give it a little edge for that reason.
And I just really love Lucy and the White Witch.
Even though there are fewer women characters in this movie
than male characters, I do think that the women in
general are the more memorable and more iconic. And I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:42:32):
So I'm sort of like Asla, I'm bored the White Witch.
I'm engaged the White Witch.

Speaker 1 (01:42:38):
I Yeah, she's She's the one that stands the test
of time, you know. And that's coming from someone who
used to move Aslan before bed right right. The White
Witch takes it regardless. So I'm gonna give it to nipples.
Who are you giving your nipples to?

Speaker 3 (01:42:55):
I'll give it to as well. Merry Christmas everyone, and
I'll give it to one to Tilda Swinton and one
to Andrew Adamson's Shrek and Shrek two.

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
I was gonna say an argument to bump it down
to one and a half is that we know Andrew
Adamson can make a feminist masterpiece. He just made Shrek two,
so there is that You're like, we know the bar
for Andrew Adamson feminist masterpiece is relatively high, but I'll
stick with two. I'm gonna give one to Lucy. I'm
gonna give one to Warlord Santa.

Speaker 3 (01:43:30):
Oh oh yeah, wow.

Speaker 1 (01:43:33):
Never forgets so funny that Santa sin is. Apparently j R. R.
Tolkien was also like your joke, you're a flop? Why
is Santa in your book? Which is very funny?

Speaker 3 (01:43:42):
All right, incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:43:44):
Well, there you go, listeners, nine years after you started
asking for it, there's our Chronicles of Nardia episode. We
hope you enjoyed it, and you can find us in
all the normal places. You can find us mostly on Instagram,
on social media, and you can find us, as we
said at the beginning of the episode, on the Patreon
aka Matreon, which is how we were able to figure

(01:44:05):
out how badly everyone wanted this episode. But if you
want to head over there for additional holiday episodes, we
covered the family Stone and Black Christmas, another popular request, indeed,
And with that, Happy holidays, Happy Holidays. Here's a sword,

(01:44:26):
Go kill someone young one.

Speaker 3 (01:44:28):
Bye bye bye.

Speaker 1 (01:44:32):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
produced by me Jamie Loftus and.

Speaker 3 (01:44:38):
Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie
Lichtermann and.

Speaker 1 (01:44:43):
Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them?

Speaker 3 (01:44:46):
That's Me? And our logo and merch and all of
our artwork in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever
heard of her?

Speaker 1 (01:44:54):
Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way,
was composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 3 (01:44:59):
With vocals by Katharine Voskrosynski.

Speaker 1 (01:45:01):
Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.

Speaker 3 (01:45:06):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
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