The Craft with Suzee Dunn

This week, Jamie "Light as a Feather" Loftus and Caitlin "Stiff as a Board" Durante invite guest Suzee Dunn to discuss The Craft!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and
best start changing it with the Beck del Cast. Hi,
welcome to the Beck Deel Cast. My name is Jamie
and this is our podcast about how women are portrayed

(00:22):
in movies. Hey, is it good? Usually no, almost never,
almost never, But sometimes a movie surprises us and it's like,
oh it wasn't it was like only terrible, but like
ten okay in its portrayal of women. And then sometimes
you're like, I'm tired, I'm tired, I'm tired of this,
I'm tired of this happening. I'm tired of this world.

(00:44):
Why do we have to have this discussion? But we
have to because someone has to, And and then you
just spiral are heroes. You're right, Jesus fucking christ Man.
What an exhausting time to be alive. Indeed, well, but
we're here, I don't know, maybe bring some levity to
anyone's life by yeah, sorry, yeah, but we're not supposed

(01:06):
to be the bummer podcast. Yeah, we're a fun We're
a fun lift up we're fun. We're fun. We're fun,
but sometimes we get piste off and you can just
had to be okay with it. It's an upsetting world.
We're allowed to have our feelings. Yeah, I've been drinking
a Mike's heart in days. What's going on? Ship, I
know that's what's going on. iBOT Crystally. We bought crystals, Yeah,

(01:29):
we did. I bought like eight crystals. Bot. I didn't
say anything while we're in the store because I was
just like, no, she's into it, She's going for well.
I figured crystal. I have a lot of things that
need addressed in my life, and I bought a crystal
for every issue. I bought crystals yesterday and I was
vibrating at a very high level. I walked for a

(01:50):
total of three hours. I had a panic attack. But
I'm like, I'm just I can't handle the energy of
the crystals yet, or maybe I should go back on
my bipolar medication. Hard to say. I bought the crystal,
feel good about it. Bought Picasso Jasper. I'm about to
start writing the Great American novel literally any second, literally
an It's on the tip of my tongue. I can't

(02:12):
wait to read we're so close. But yes, we bought crystals.
Totally fine, we can deal with it. Shout out to
all you crystal heads out here. We are become you. Yes,
we are among you, and speaking of like crystally we're
talking about. But before we even do that, let's introduce

(02:32):
our guests. She is the creator of Act Like a Girl,
which is a podcast. It's a live show. It's a
whole movement. It's a movement. As soon as you're done, Hello,
sorry I introduced you right as you were swallowing a
gulp of water. Also, I have to say I just
got given a bowl, like a pipe that's completely a crystal.

(02:54):
Whoa smoking and it gives you mental clarity or something. Yeah,
that's like two for one my brain chakras. Yeah, so
we're here to talk about the craft. Yes, wait, the
craft of screenwriting, the craft spiking of I do have
a master's degree in it. I to bring up it.

(03:16):
I wanted to open it brought up because you want
to know what's exciting. There are still only three degrees between.
Oh well, now we're even. Now we're even, I'll give
you one. You know the podcast. Yeah, I've never used it. Okay,
keep it. Keep it, Dad will finally be proud of me.

(03:38):
It'll be great. So one wants to make a dad proud. Honestly,
that's so twentieth century right over it. When did you
first see this movie? What's your history with this movie? Oh? Man,
I mean I feel like I saw this in my teen,
like teenage years. I was probably like thirteen or fourteen.
I think that's like the right age to see it

(03:58):
for the first time. I wish i'd seen it then. Yeah,
I was obsessed with it immediately. I mean, it's it's
not it is a teen movie structurally, but it's also
like not a teen movie. It's pretty scary. Yeah, there's
some scary imagery. There's some pretty heavy topics sexual yeah, racism. Yeah.
I don't think I saw it until I was later

(04:21):
teens or maybe even early twenties. I think I saw
it for the first time in college and then Jamie
three am last night. Yes, you've never seen it before.
I've never seen it, which is weird. It's like a
movie that I know if I had seen it at
the right time, I would have been because I was
really into Witchy Ship when I was a teenager and
still kind of now. And and I mean, we just
bought crystal. We just bought crystals. Wait, what do you think? Well,

(04:44):
I have a lot of thoughts. I loved the first
half of the movie. The second half of the movie.
I didn't like the second half. I didn't like the
weird turn that it took in the second night. But well,
we'll get there. But in general, I liked what they
were going. I'll do the recap of the craft, the
recraft that doesn't make any sense. I loved it, thank

(05:07):
you so much. So. It centers on these four girls, Sarah, Nancy, Bonnie,
and Rochelle. Sarah's new to town. She just moved to
l A from San Francisco, and she's like already kind
of practicing witchcraft and magic. And these Sarah hot, all

(05:28):
of them. All of them are big. It's it's a
it's a very it's a hot move ho. It's a
lot of hot, but not really any hot men to
speak of. Um, I'm gonna go with Skeet, not his character.
Who's Skeete that's his real name? Oh wait, the like
a job, Yeah, the the guy that his name is

(05:51):
the short term for masturbation, like skee like like Skeet skeet,
motherfucker skee goddamn skeet skeep motherfucker ear. Yeah, yeah, he's
on Riverdale. This is all wild. I didn't know he's
a guy from Riverdale. Well, I guess he's hot. I

(06:13):
find he's hotter now really, I think he's hotter. Now
I would agree he's hotter. And I didn't think he's
hot in the Craft Riverdale. I think his character is deplorable.
So maybe that's why. Well, I like that, Like this
movie totally harkens us to discuss the male characters that way,
like in a way that generally would discuss the female characters, right, Like,

(06:33):
it's just like very easy to be like, well he's hot,
he's not. Yeah, and then we don't know anything about
his character and he's not that he's horrifying, but we'll
get yeah, we'll get there. So Sarah's like, hey, you
guys seem witchy. I'm kind of witchy. Maybe we should
all be friends, and the other three girls are like, yeah,
we need a fourth because they have to have earth
and fire and everyone of fours, they need a north,

(06:57):
south east West. So they sort of bring her into
the group, and Sarah is the most talented of the witches,
so she's able to introduce him to different spells and like, hey,
wait a minute, there's this racist girl, let's make her
hair fall out. Wait a minute, there's this boy skeet well, well,
Sarah like she's the best witch, but she knows the

(07:19):
least and then they like kind of teach her how
to harness she's like the least educated. Yeah, and so
she just has raw talent, right, but then they sort
of mold her and their teacher had to cast the
spells and then they yeah, so they like there's different
people who they sort of want to cast spells on,
either to punish them for being racist. Taylor, all racist

(07:41):
people should just go bald, and I'm setting them off
the hook right right, because some of them might look nice. Well,
it was like spoiled. It was a weird I never
even made the connection that made they were turning her
into a skinhead because racist sometimes are already involved by choice,

(08:02):
because like, this is part of the I wonder if
the two white guys who wrote this movie thought that
hard about it. I doubt it. I doubt it, but
I said, but I like that. But then that's also
interesting because even though like, Okay, yeah, that's great that
they talk about racism and like show a racist character
getting her come up. And but then like they don't
even give Rochelle a lot of validity as a character,

(08:25):
Like we never see her home life. The only time
we see her, she's the only character. She's the only one.
Like we just see her front door. That's it. I mean,
there's I mean the back half of this movie just
and there's no other person of color. Yeah, she is
the only one. I think you even see unscreen any
which is like for a movie that takes place in
Los Angeles, is like craziest thing. But right, So, so

(08:49):
she punished these Yeah, and then Skeet is like he
spreads this rumor that like he and Sarah head sex
even though he didn't. But then Sarah's like, well, I
still want him to like me. So she cast a
spell and he sort of becomes obsessed with her. Yeah,
and then um, Nancy sort of like the head Dorothy

(09:10):
Gale in The Terrible Movie, returned to oz. Yes, I
still have not seen that her eye. Yes, oh my god.
But she wants to sort of invoke the spirit of man. Yeah,
they worship a male god, which is kind of upsetting
right movie, like like who's inside of you? Anyways? So

(09:39):
she like they cast this spell or whatever, do this
ritual to have him be inside of Nancy, and then
it turns her all evil and then they have this
big they sort of duke it out at the end.
Finally Sarah triumphs because she's the good witch of the
North yea literally, And then is Nancy the witch of

(10:01):
the South? Am I saying she's not of the West? Um?
But I don't remember who's who? I didn't even I
can't either. But I also think that they assigned them
the wrong elements in my opinion, thinking that too, because
I think that Rachelle is definitely air and Bonnie is
definitely earth. And then this is like different than I

(10:22):
think most people would think. But I think Sarah is
fire and Nancy is water because Nancy is more chaos
and fire is like, I don't know, like more controlled
and it's all like one thing, whereas water like other
things can exist in it and there can be like
different kinds of chaos whereas fire is just like all
this anyway, I think about these things. I was just wondering,

(10:44):
It's like, am I am I a fire Am I
a water? Am I Samantha? Am I Charlotte? I don't know.
I think you're what's what's your? What signed are you?
Is it? What kind of sign is it? I'm a chorus?
Well that's earth an Okay, I'm a sign. I'm a
fair sign. I guess I'm an ares Leo nice Earth?

(11:05):
Well Earth is Sarah was Earth? Right? Think I think
that's what they signed her to. Yeah, um yeah she
was mother? Yeah yeah, right right right. And it's like,
I guess I can see that argument. I don't know, Yeah,
I think. Okay, So something I did find funny in
this Okay. So the big problem for me with this
movie is the first half of it is all about
these teenage goth adjacent misfits finding each other bonding. There's

(11:32):
a little bit of friction, there's a little bit of
click problems, but ultimately it's people in high school finding
people that they like and generally doing positive, like or
not horrible things. They make a racist go bald. I
think that's very cool. You know. Nev Campbell gets healed
of her scars and it's confident like in this universe. Now,

(11:56):
her doctors being like written up about in medical journals
for hearing right and women lifting up women women even
though the women in stem in this case had nothing
to do with it, women in magic, because she's like
making major breakthroughs, right right, I mean, you know, it's

(12:17):
about them coming together. And then the second half of
the movie they kind of sell out all the momentum
made in the first half and just turn these characters
against each other in a really brutal way. And and
for me, the most frustrating part was, I mean, I
guess we're to understand, you know, Nancy gets her wish,
which is move inside of her and she basically becomes

(12:41):
a god who can read people's thoughts and fly and
appear and blah blah blah. But then they basically sell
out the characters of Bonnie and Rochelle, who we have
started to learn more about and they have been getting
to different degrees at least we've gotten looks into their
lives and we're sort of understanding where they're coming from
and why they want what they want, and then all
of a sudden, it's like, oh, but none of that

(13:02):
matters anymore. They're just gonna do what Nancy tells them
to do. And now they're I was shocked by that
choice that they didn't have them be on Sarah's side
or didn't even in ass the like that we don't
see that change take place. It just happened. Yeah, there's
no real build up or arc. Well are we to
believe that and his power is sort of corrupting all

(13:24):
of them? Or maybe just but then why are they
still bitches at the end? You know when they when
they go up to Sarah and they're like, hey, we
don't have powers anymore? Do you have? Like it was
just weird because they all came together as friends and
then it's sort of and I thought of that too,
of like, oh, maybe they're just being manipulated by Nancy
and mentally. But but even after that's no longer a thing,

(13:49):
it's like, oh, are we supposed to think that these
three were just not good people the whole time? Because
I I don't like that there is sort of that
implication because come to think of it, I don't think
Mom is a bad force. The how he's everything, Yeah,
he's every seld and as the witch store lady, I

(14:14):
can't remember what her character's name is. I'm pretty sure
which store lady, which short lady? She says, like there's
evil and good in nature in the world, so like
it's really the witch who chooses, so she will. And
also like they steal from her in the beginning, which
I know I've as a teenager, I stole stuff sometimes,

(14:36):
like more like from CVS than like from from a mom. Yeah,
from like a locally owned and to her credit, I mean,
she doesn't seem super bothered by it, like you know,
like that the woman who owns the New Age shop
is just like, oh, you're stealing again, and she's like, yeah,
I don't have any money. I was like, this is
a weird dynamic. Why would you let him keep coming in?

(14:56):
But she's so chill, she's in with Manos. She's like whatever, Yeah,
it's his life. That's a good point though about this
movie starts out is like a depiction of female friendship
and you're like, oh, cool, I'm glad they all found
each other and even though some of them are you know,
like rough around the edges, they found each other and
that's nice. And then yeah, by the end, they've pretty
much all the three original which is all turned on Sarah,

(15:20):
and then they try to kill her, even like I
pretend like her dad and stepmom are dad. Yeah, oh
my god. That That was the thing that made me laugh,
is like they're like, oh man, it was a flight
from l A to San Francisco. I'm like, that's like
an eight minute flight. How can you get that wrong?
She should have known they were lying. At the end,
you see your dad and he's like, hey, it's me.

(15:41):
I was like, of course you took a two minute flight.
What You're fine. I love those parental relationships. I love
Sarah and her dad. They're so cute together. Like, I
love that she doesn't have daddy issues. Yeah, he's like
kind of the only male character that you don't end
up absolutely hating. Yeah, and he likely supports her. Like
when when that guy shows up when they first get

(16:01):
to the house, Yeah, the snake man, Like he like
what freaks out on him? Yeah, that was so fucking weird.
He like freaks out on him, you know, rather than like,
I don't know, victim blaming or something. Right. And I
also love Nancy and her mom's relationship, which I do
think also gets spoiled by the second half because it's
like they have so I mean, like, yeah, they're a mess,

(16:23):
but like they're each other's mess. I didn't. I don't know,
I didn't like Nancy. It's interesting because again it's like
the movie does a lot of work in the front
half to develop Nancy's character. Is like, yes, she is
jealous of Sarah, which is like not atypical for teenage girl,
and so I was like, okay, she's like, you know,

(16:44):
she's tough, but like she you know, she doesn't seem
like a bad person. And then they give us her backstory,
which is like she has a brutal home life, like
her mom and her stepdad I guess are are alcoholics
who are screaming at her from the second and her
mom is the first an yell at her um. And
so it's like, okay, she has a really really really
hard home life. And then sort of sells that out

(17:07):
when they're just like, okay, now she's an all powerful
being and she's a she's an evil bitch, and at
the end she's punished by being in in a mental
asylum and you know, in a kind of needlessly long
montage of her, you know, I was like, okay, we
get it cut, Yeah, just like what did it were?
They like, no, we need more, like but either way,

(17:29):
I was just like man like it. I don't I
don't get why this movie went the way it did,
because it just sacrificed all the really good character development
they were doing to just turn girls against each other
for the sake of it. I felt like, I don't
know if I mean, I have conflicting feelings about it,
the same way I do for like Heathers and Mean Girls,
where it's like a depiction of female friendship which is

(17:52):
like always to me kind of just defaults is like,
oh cool, I'm glad that there's a movie about this, right,
And then they're often shown as like, at least some
of them are like really awful to each other to
the point where they're killing each other or trying to
kill each other or just like bullying each other. So
there's that that I'm like, okay, well, yeah, like you said,

(18:15):
towards the second half and towards the end, the three
original Girls too, of the characters are basically they're just
like well, whenever, like they just totally blow them off.
I don't know, yeah, yeah, they're just like, well everything.
I hope you enjoyed the first half of them, because
now they're just going to be around. It's also so interesting,

(18:35):
like their hair all just gets so much better as
they are more power and I also love that. Oh
I can't even remember why she said this, but my
favorite line in the whole movie was when Rochelle is like,
and I told her your white honeys just deal with that.
Oh yeah, oh yeah. They're like, what did Nancy wish
for her? She's like, I don't know. She wished to
not be white trash anymore. It was like, and I

(18:58):
told her, you're what there? But I mean Nancy. I
guess I didn't really like the takeaway I got from
Nancy and her mom because even after we see the
stepfather have a witch induced heart attack and he dies
and then they get money, that's all like great, great, great,
love to see a villain his mail died in front

(19:19):
of me. That scene in the trailer too, when they're
talking with the guy, that's like, yeah, all the different
Like the art department must have had so much fun
creating that scene because there's like different wallpaper on each
wall of the trailer, and like scenes are just like
sitting and smoking stick so good. I love it, and

(19:42):
look like she's crying but then she's laughing. It's so good. Yeah. Um,
And so that was all great, But then I feel
like where you sort of leave off with Nancy and
her mom as they moved to this really nice apartment,
which you're just like a hundred but it was so
then they moved into this amazing apartment in l A.
But the jukebox that only plays Connie Bradley Bailey something right,

(20:07):
Conny Connie Walker, my favorite France frand and my favorite
that's a feminist. Um. But then with I'm pretty sure
the last time we see Nancy's mom, you can tell
you the door in her face, right, because her mom
is still kind of a disaster alcoholic who's not thinking

(20:30):
about her daughter. And so it's like, well, you know,
that's not what's gonna make Nancy happy. Even though that
improves her situation by not having a piece of ship
step step dad anymore and having a better living situation,
her mom's still an alcoholic and doesn't know how to
take care of her kids. And that is like kind
of devastating and and sad and hard to see. Um,
and also just made me feel worse when they turned

(20:52):
Nancy into a total evil demon because I was just
like she you like, I feel like if you're gonna
do that to a character, if you're going to if
you know at the beginning you're going to take this
character and turn them completely irredeemably evil, but then don't
give them a very sympathetic backstory that like possibly a
girl seeing that movie could relate, you know, because so

(21:13):
many I mean, you know, it's not uncommon to have
an alcoholic parent, and so it's just weird to see that.
There's also a little moment where like her stepdad, she's
like wearing a robe and he's like you could almost
see through it, and he like kind of yanks on
a robe and it's like weirdly sexual. And another thing
that I struggled with in this movie is that a

(21:34):
lot of the spells that they because each of the
four girls has sort of like their own character arc.
They're thing that they're trying to achieve, and at least
two of them are like either very superficial or selfish.
Where Bonnie is trying to remove the scars so that
she can be beautiful on the outside as well as
and and then as soon as that happens, she turns

(21:55):
like ship on the inside. She's like but also when
they were just like when Sarah was giving her a
hard time in the car. I don't know. And I
say this as a teenager that wore a back brace,
Like when when Sarah turned to Bonnie and was like,
ever since you started looking at like a normal girl,
you've become a real bit or like that was summarized,
and I was like, you know what, give Bonnie like
a couple of months to be a little bit and

(22:16):
be like I'm cute now. I was like, man, because
getting out of a physical prison is exciting, and give
her a couple of months. I don't know. I was
like getting her dress sexy and walk around. Yeah, like
let for a narrative of a movie. It was a
little bit of a bummer to like see Bonnie like
so like her hair like so greasy and in her
face and just like completely covered up because of this scar,

(22:38):
you know. And then like the minutes off she's like
sexy nev Campbell. All of a sudden she starts out
very ali sheety in the breakfast club. Yes, well, but
I think almost like covering her face with her hair
to be like, oh, please don't know this. It's Neuf
Cambell and she's very hot because she's hot at the
beginning of the movie too, but it's that crazy Hollywood

(22:58):
thing where they're just like, we're just going to gaslight
you into thinking she's not not because she looks a
little bit she's gonna have a middle part. And well
between that her like her wanting to remove her scars
and Sarah, who's the main character that we're most supposed
to identify with and root for, her thing is that

(23:19):
she wants this boy to like her even after he
spread these like vicious rumors about her. And so I
want to go through that arc really quick. Skeets Character
arcs se day out on every episode of the Backtel
Cast Skeets Character Arc. So, okay, So the first thing
you see is like him talking to Sarah and he's like, oh,

(23:43):
the old girls over there, the bitches of east Wick
and the like slut shames Nancy and like we're like, oh,
I don't know, really, it's just like she's a slut. Yeah, yeah,
I know how he feels. So he's like talking them
and then they go on a date. He and Sarah.
They're like flirting. He's like, oh, your head is good

(24:03):
good for kissing? Can I? He asks Permis I know,
I know not to do I know, and then and
I was like feminist Nikon Skeet asks permission to kill
ri He I was like, wow, this never we never said.

(24:23):
I literally said out loud less and I was like, God,
damn it, that's so sexy. And then he sucks it
all up, which is weird because he well, I mean
she and she says no and he's like oh, and
then she's like, are you mad and he says no,
and then you're like and then the scene cuts to
the next day, You're like, well they do kiss? They did? Well,
yeah they did, because but then totally adds validity to

(24:46):
a story because his friends see them making out and
then they're leaving, so that's like key that, like they
do kiss, because then everybody's like, well we saw them
making out comes afterwards, right, because then he asks her
to go home right him, and she says no, and
he's seen he's like saying he's okay with it, But
the subtext of his tone and stuff like that is

(25:06):
he's annoyed and piste off that he will that she
won't go home with him, So then he spreads the
rumor that they slept together, and then she calls him
out on it. She's like, you're a lying sack of shit.
Fuck you, and he's like really rude to her, and
then she's like, oh, I better cast a spell to
make him like me. Even he also proved himself as
a piece of ship. He also says like out like

(25:27):
he like yells so that everyone hears, just like I
don't want to date you again or whatever, like just
to add even more relity to a shitty, shitty story
and its stupid pants. There is terrible pants in this
movie pants. So by the way, this movie, I just
want to say that this movie completely was passing the
backdel test until minute thirteen, which I love was really good.

(25:51):
That never happens and that has to happen one time.
And at minute thirteen they talk about how much they
don't like the guys. That's like the first that that was.
Another part I liked about the front half of this
movie is that at the beginning, when I mean, granted,
do Nancy, Bonnie and Rochelle basically bully Sarah into being

(26:12):
their friend. Yes? Is that clicky and problematic? Yes, but
they're just come with us. They're like, you're our friend now,
which kind of happens in a more fun way and
mean girls. But but it's I mean, that's high school,
I guess, but you know, worth saying. But they sort
of look out for each other a little bit, where
Nancy very in no uncertain terms, says, look out for Skeet.

(26:36):
He's a predator. He'll hit on anyone with hits. Trust me,
he spreads disease right right, except Bonnie because she still
has a middle part for like twenty more minutes and
then she'll start fucking anyone she wants. But and then
when that happens and Sarah finds out the hard way,
that's Skeets an asshole. Nancy sort of gloats a little bit,

(26:58):
but ultimately doesn't shame where for it doesn't doubt her
story and why did I tell you? And that is
sort of what convinces Sarah, Okay, I'll be friends with
these girls because they warned me and I wanted to
learn anyways, which seems like a very teenage girl move.
And then you know, now I have a reason to
trust them. And so that was I was like, that's

(27:19):
a you know, pretty solid friendship bonding moment, and I
liked that. It was like one of My favorite parts
of them coming together Light as a feather stuff is
a board scene. Amazing, I'm so good. I'm obsessed that
scene because it's it's like, it's the best and you
and they started doing like the like mid to late
nineties almost pretty matrix e kind of technology where you

(27:39):
see the three sixties shot like we just want to
prove that, you know, there's not some weird things. She's
laying on a green block, but I like it looks
so real, it's exciting. It's man, Yeah, that was cool.
I left that scene. Yeah. So then where skeets are
Lands is that he gets spell cast on him, he

(28:01):
falls in love with her and starts stalking her. Then
this rise to rape Sarah. But that but by then
it's the second half of the movie where where it
seems like all the harmless slash very little harm done
they do in the first half that's fun to watch
suddenly comes back on them threefold in the second half,

(28:23):
and I feel like punishes female characters unnecessarily everything post
the invoking in summoning of Yeah, that's when things take
a turn. So then he tries to rape her, she
runs away, and then Nancy's like, we're going to get
revenge on this guy. So she goes and and like
puts a lot of unwanted sexual contact on him and

(28:44):
then turns into s and has sex name and that
could probably be considered rape, Like did they have sex sex? Though?
I mean, it seems like it's like they were to
write and that. But that's another like selling out of
a character they just didn't like. That didn't make sense
to me other than once Nancy had momented power, like

(29:06):
she just wanted to use it to cause chaos, to
hurt anybody, like and well, I mean, I don't know
because at first, when she said I'm going to go
get revenge on him, I was like, all right, this
seems like something this character would do because she's piste
off and wants to take care of it, probably in
a chaotic way, but then ends up having totally selfish motives.

(29:28):
That's like, I don't I don't really believe that. The
scene ends with him getting magic to death out of
a window, like pushed by magic out of a window.
But he died. I think he died. Does he did die? Okay?
I was when I couldn't remember, could just start there,
just kill him? I mean honestly that his death scene didn't.

(29:49):
The sex scene that precedes it is very problematic and
confusing and just like, oh, what are the ethics of this?
But his death scene I really liked. That's the problem
is that she like quite literally asked for it, you
know what I'm saying, Like our a big issue was
talking about rape culture as well, she was asking for it,
like she quite literally, Yeah, she like literally asked for

(30:11):
him to fall head over heels in love with her,
not to rape her. Obviously, No, no, what I'm saying.
And that's that's why it's And that spell was so
fun at first two or it's just like he was
just like I want to carry your books. Why can't
I stop thinking about you? I'm stupid. I'm stupid. I'm stupid.
And it's like, great, this checks out, he's stupid. Backfires, Yeah,

(30:32):
and then the whole threefold thing comes in and just
every repercussion of the threefold thing I just just didn't
work for me at all. Like there's no world in
which because Sarah cast a goofy spell in an already
misguided attempt to make an asshole like her, there's no
way that she deserved that come up and of being

(30:56):
a sat no. And Rochelle's arc of at the end
when you know she's doing a bad thing and she's
kind of mindlessly following Nancy for reasons that I didn't understand.
She and Bonnie look in the mirror and Bonnie has scars,
and then and then Rachelle's somehow going bald because she
retaliated against a racist, which is like, no, she that

(31:18):
was allowed. That was allowed. I just I don't know
every racist should go bald, like the should fly out
of a wind get thrown out of the window. Man.
I really did like Skeet's death scene. It was what
did you say? She said, You're sorry, She's like shaking,
and then he just like you know, explodes. But I

(31:38):
agree with Caitlin that it like totally negates the validity
of it all by then raping him before doing that.
It's such a bummer that his whole arc plays out,
didn't say way, especially because it starts out with him
asking for consent to kiss her like don't like don't
and that's shy is under a spell. Yeah, So if

(31:59):
you're going to set up that type of behavior, then
don't make that character actually end up being a gross
because that's like the major that we should so many
characters in this movie a troubled but possibly not irredeemable character,

(32:20):
and then at the end they're just totally like nope.
And I remember like rewatching this movie when I was
becoming more feminism aware, you know, and thinking to myself, like,
I kept hoping because I think I kind of forgot
plat points, and I kept hoping that she would like
be wanting him to follow so how to reveals in
love with her, to like then teach him a proper left,

(32:41):
like a good lesson. But then it just really was
because she just wanted him to like her, and I
was like, damn it. And almost immediately once he starts
to like her, she's over it. She's just like, oh, well, well,
it goes back to my point of like two of
the like desires of the girls are like I want
to be hotter and I want a boy to like me.
And it's like, you, I guess you could argue, that's sure,

(33:02):
that's what they're they're teenagers, that's what teenagers. But I
would counter argue that we're socialized to think that that's
all teenage girls are capable of or should care about
or do care about, which one of them wishes that
racism would no longer exist, and that's good really, like

(33:23):
Rochelle kills it in the wish department. Everyone else does
kind of also like kind of feels bad about it too,
which is sad, like she should just be like, yeah,
suck you, you're bald to deal with it, you know.
But I think that that's interesting too, which again is
why it's such a bummer in the end when she's
just like a crazy bitch too, yeah, I mean, and

(33:43):
and really like, yeah, selling out developed female character to
be a crazy bitch is just such a move. Also
a small character for Sarah Um she's sort of Disney
princessed a little bit by no mom. She has mom,
and there's sort of this the specter of her mom
is sort of being you know the whole time. I

(34:08):
totally about that, but only because of you, because of
what you bring up always on back Toel cast I
was like, oh, yeah, we're changing lives, we're here, we're
hero But but that occurred and then I don't know,
I mean, I wasn't dissatisfied with how that was brought
back at the end with the name of the witch

(34:30):
at the Witch Store is Lerio, which is a Spanish
word for lily um. But at the end when Sarah
almost sort of seeks out Lerio as like a maternal
figure of like, here's a woman who knows something I
don't and I need help and I'm scared. Mom, it
goes goes to Leria and Lerio is you know, it

(34:50):
adds in and she really is kind of like the
witch ex Makina at the correct moment in the movie, right, Oh,
she has all the information and turns old Sarah will
be fine no matter what, and you know, and then
we get to see that weird climactic scene but she
says like whatever, she's like and your mother was a witch?
Did you know that? And Sara was like no, and

(35:11):
she said, well she was. You're like, well that's great,
don't she know she's the witch at she does everything?
She does it all? Yeah, that was that was a
weird what did she do? That was helpful in that scene?
Genuine question because doesn't it just end with like the
shop blowing up and then that's it. But then it
doesn't like it because because it looks like it's exploding

(35:36):
and us like it's it's Nancy. So she runs away
because she's still being tormented by Nancy. Yeah, I mean
that character the Witch Story lady doesn't really do anything
except maybe give her the confidence later on to realize, hey,
I can invoke. It was nice to see a maternal

(35:57):
moment for Sarah. Maybe that was like supposed to just
be like, oh, she gives her a strength or something.
Oh I did like that. Sarah repeatedly tries to not
kill Nancy, which after a certain amount of misdeeds, would
have been legit, you know, And I think a lot
of movies would have just made that easier move, but

(36:19):
is repeatedly trying to make counter spells to be like
I don't want Nancy to hurt anyone else, and I
don't want her to hurt herself. So you're just like, well,
that's a good look it out. And also I don't
know if I would have had that sort of frustraint,
I'd be like, get rid of her. Why is she
so mean now? But she just why It makes no
sense to me that, like, if that's her character, she
wants goodwill to what everyone, and like she's looking out

(36:42):
for people, why then does she choose to make this
boy like her as her like mainly story. Maybe she
learned from that and learned even that choice though, Like
it's why if he had wronged her, why didn't she
cast a spell to make his dick tiny fall off
or stop working or something, yeah, like or just a

(37:04):
counter about yeah something something. But yeah, it was just
a weird choice that if this had been written and
directed by women, I feel like I was also very
sad when all the sharks washed up on the Yeah,
what a weird I forgot about that. That was like,
you're making me feel bad for sharks. I like, that's head.

(37:29):
There's just a million of them, and she's like their gifts, Like,
what fucked up? Nancy? That's that's pretty much exactly where
the movie lost me, because from that scene on, it's
just like, well, I hope you enjoyed the first part,
no sense, Like when they because they do the sands right,
and like all the glass things explode and all the
animals go out and whatever, and then Nev Campbell is

(37:51):
like sitting on the rock watching Rochelle's character is taking
a beautiful nap, and then Nancy is walking across the
water and it's like what happened happened. Oh, here's another.
Because there's not a lot of male characters in this movie,
which amazing, most of them end up dead by the end,

(38:13):
and the remaining ones the one character. I don't know why,
I was like harping on this in my head. I'm like, man,
it's crazy that that character wasn't a perfect the gym teacher,
the swim coach. Oh yeah, where there is the moment
where like he definitely like when Laura Lily or what
is her name, Laura, Laura, which is which is the

(38:35):
popular girl when she like, you know, when she takes
off her cap and her hair is falling out, and
then he like it's literally like he's like, oh, she's
not hot anymore, so I won't pay attention to her.
Let me look over here. And then he sees her
do like the perfect dive, and it's it's like, now
he pays attention to the girl, the only girl of
color in the whole fucking field. I guess I didn't

(38:56):
see it that way because he scolded Laura once before
where Laura was making fun. But I don't think you
did enough in my opinion. Well, he's also a character
who's on screen for like eleven seconds in the whole movie.
I think I was. I was lightly impressed by him.
But yeah, I mean between um, Nancy's gross stepdad who
has a heart attack and dies, Skeet who dies, and

(39:19):
the snake man at the beginning it was run over
by a car. Yeah, it's like half the men because
the other The only other male characters with speaking roles
in the movie are Chris's friends. Who is that tiny friend?
He's okay, I was like, I know who that guy is,
who's that tiny? In Clueless? He plays Murphy's uh, And

(39:40):
then I don't even know the other dude. One of
them is Mint and one of them is Trey. I
think I don't even know which ones which they are,
which is great, Yeah, right, exactly, like I don't know
what these characters are the same, the represent the same too. Yeah. Yeah.
He plays Bernie Murphy's love interest in Clueless. Yea, So
I would argue that of the both male and female

(40:04):
characters in this movie, of the women who aren't portrayed
all that well, neither any of the men. Like all
the men except for like Sarah's dad, who hardly has
screen time and it's kind of awesome. He is such
a good dad. And then when she there's like a
scene where she's like laying a boundary. She's like, don't
touch me, go away, and he's like, okay, yeah he does, like,

(40:25):
oh man, that definitely happened. And when my dad at
some point he just like sunk off. Yeah, he was like, well,
the teenage girls are confusing. And then when he's like
dropping because you know, clearly we established that, they look
at her wrists and they're like, oh, you cut it
the right way, So we clearly established that, like probably
part of why they left San Francisco is because she
tried to commit suicide. Decidit right. And then when he's

(40:46):
dropping her off at school, he's like, you know, you
don't have to go right away, like we can, you know,
settle in. You can take some time off. And that's
another positive part of their friendship I thought, is that
she's not shamed or pushed to be asked questions about that,
where Nancy's just like punk rock right, and then like, okay,
we accept you. You're a friend. And I was like, man, cool, okay, cool,

(41:08):
but I don't know that. Man. Another fun moment in
the half of the movie that I liked Yeah. Does
anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? Just that
this was written and directed by white guys obviously in
case you couldn't have assumed that off the fact that
it's a movie that was released. Yeah, I mean, I
think it's just exciting that it. They don't really talk

(41:31):
about boys that they like, really true, there are none
to like. Yeah, and so I think that that's an
exciting part of it. But yeah, I think it's just
a bummer that it. But they're redoing it, right, aren't they.
I heard that that they're what they're thinking about redoing it,
which I'm like, let's cast Susie Dennis Sarah and let's

(41:53):
have it be written by a woman interacted by a woman.
Oh yeah, the Craft reboot is right, actually a sequel.
Oh that's well, that's cool. Or just stop rebooting things
and write another movie about witchy teenagers. It's true, speaking
of characters talking to each other about things, this movie
definitely does pass the backdel test. It basically passes immediately.

(42:19):
I mean they're not talking to each other, but they're
like doing a seance and it's three Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
like I mean this in terms of passing the test.
A million times as that's it's almost like the opposite
of the test. Like the boys are the characters that
are like obsessed with the girls and are like only
ever talking about girls, and men rarely talk to each other.

(42:41):
There's only a few scenes where there's like two men
talking to and they're talking about usually about how they
super love a girl or how do they super think
she fucking sucks blah blah. But they're all punished, so
that's important. Yeah, I mean most of the time they're
talking about spells in magic and like all they like

(43:04):
what their inner conflex with each other are. Like, this
movie very much goes along with the theme of the
more a movie he passes the Bechdel test, the more
it tends to be financially successful. Budget of this movie
fifteen million, box office fifty six million. All right, so
there you go. Maybe right, a female even if you
kind of sunk up the second half, still right, right,
female characters. Yeah, let's write the movie on our nipple scale,

(43:28):
um zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of
women who this is This is a tricky one. This
is tricky because it's doing a lot of things right.
It's a female centered movie about female friendships. At least
they're friends for the first part of it until that
all goes to ship. But well, it is very upsetting
to me that the male character who asks permission to

(43:51):
kiss a girl, because at least half of the movies
we talk about there's a surprise kiss and yeah, and
it's like whoa or like yeah. So I was like, oh,
he's going to be because I couldn't remember much about
this movie. So when I was rewatching it, I was like, Wow,
he is he a good guy? Are we supposed to
like him? I like him right now? And then every

(44:13):
story beat after that it's like, oh no, he's a
nightmare person. So yeah, there's the female friendships, and for
the most part at the beginning, they're uplifting each other
and they're supporting each other. And the movie isn't specifically,
there's not about the goal. Isn't there trying to win
over a man's love or anything like that. They're basically
just trying to get better at witchcraft and the women

(44:35):
in magic. Women in Magic, although it is like, okay,
is a man to keep using the heat pronoun So
it's like, all right, why couldn't it be like a goddess,
especially because they're basically describing Mother Nature. I'm like, why
is he? Especially when they have Sarah then say Mother Earth?
Like why wouldn't if they're putting that pinnacle thing and

(44:57):
they have her say that last? You know? So I
think it had a lot of potential, but the movie,
especially by the end, whenever all the girls have basically
turned on each other and it's not, you know, this
feminist masterpiece that we're all hoping for anymore. I'm gonna
give it, I guess like two and a half snipples.

(45:21):
I almost said stars, but ye I know, but stars
are five pointed things, which is like a very witchy thing.
The pentagram? Is that what it's called? I think? So
let me can sell my crystals and oh my gosh,
I brought my crystals still my neckpack. Well wait, I

(45:42):
have to see them. Okay, okay, right now, let me
see smr rattle them. Oh my god, wait where did
you guys go to get these? Intuition? Yeah, I work
that's over here. Fun. Yeah, So I am going to
give it. I'll give it three. Maybe i'd give it

(46:04):
to that half. It's a bummer because all the characters
have so much agency there, with the exception of I
wish we had seen Rochelle's home life. I think it's
really bizarre that the only person to come are in
the whole movie doesn't have a home life. So dumb.
But I mean, even excluding that, we're given a background
for all these female characters and then they turn out

(46:24):
to be crazy. They turn out to be what, Like,
there's just the second half of this movie. It was
a big disappointment. But in the first half of the
movie we see so much more of fully developed female
character than when we would see in almost any other movie,
So it's hard. Nancy is kind of one of the
bigger bummers for me because it's just like she's the

(46:45):
child of an alcoholic and then ends up in a
mental asylum. Like that is not a good message. It's
bad we don't find out what happens to her mom
or whatever. Yeah, it was I really enjoyed the first
half of this movie. If you have and to fall
asleep in the middle, don't rewind it, like you probably
saw the fun part. I'll give it two and a

(47:06):
half nipples. I'll give one to Rochelle, I'll give one
and Nancy, and then I'll give half a nippy to
the gym teacher who didn't bother me. Well, yeah, I
didn't give my nipples away. Um, there aren't any cats
in this movie, so I don't know which is weird.

(47:28):
There's a million given to those discorpions, nipples, spiders, Spiders
have eight legs. This has been spider facts with Caitlin,
just like how cats have eight nipples. I wish this
movie was about four witches who like people wronged them

(47:48):
in like that they were racist toward them or that
they were like assaulting them and they're like, I'm going
to get revenge and then they get revenge and then
the world's a better place. That's what this movie should
be about. I don't know why, all right it alrite
that movie anyway? Would you like to write the movie? Yeah?
I mean I think you guys are spot on with
two and a half. Like I think that there are
so many things that it it did well and then

(48:09):
it like all of a sudden just like flipped and
did it bad like and then you know again like
this stuff with Rochelle, Like, yeah, I think that it
was really strong and cool show that black girls do
deal with white girls being racist to them in high school.
But then they don't show her home life, and they
like only make her like the two D character of
the four other girls that they kind of make three.

(48:30):
I feel like she has lines, yeah, I think, and
they don't have anybody else of color to like back
her up, and then they like give the girl a
family to give more than a front door exactly. Yeah,
so yeah, I think two and a half nipples is
a good rating. Who gets your nips? Oh man? Okay,
well yeah, definitely. I think Rochelle gets one of them

(48:50):
for sure. I think the like store owner definitely gets one,
which x Mankina. And then also I think that probably
Sarah's stepmom could get that happ nipple because I mean
she's not really in the movie, but she like clearly
is very supportive of them and like she uprooted her

(49:12):
life because of what happened with Sarah and she gets
on that eight minute flight. I feel like it's like
a good, healthy family relationship, yea, even though I mean
there's a lot of speculating. Yeah, yeah, it's but you know,
that's what you have to do with most movies to
fill in the blanks. So I wonder what this female
character must be like, well, a positively depiction of the stepmom.

(49:33):
It's pretty yeah, yeah, because I feel like there's so
many like times in real life and in in movies
and stories where like, yeah, the step mom is like
horrible and like wouldn't even let the dad like have
that relationship with that supports the Disney Trump a little bit.
That's nice. Yeah. Well, Susie, thanks so much for being here, guys,
thanks for having me. Where can people follow you online? Well,

(49:57):
you guys can check out Act Like a Girl. As
we said before, are all the handles for socials for
that are at Act Like a Girl TV, and then
my personal handle is Underscore Boss, which amazing. Yeah cool,
cool cool. You can follow the Betel cast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
our website, iTunes, rate It Reviews, Spotify. Sure we're not

(50:25):
stopping your stitcher, dot com I think, or maybe it's
an app. I think it's an app. Okay. Probably has
a website still though probably if you type you probably
won't be poored. Probably a website where you can maybe
better podcast and also Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water. Which

(50:47):
one are you? Fire? Aristyle is Earth? Susie your water
and Jamie you got I bud? Thanks