The Perks of Being a Wallflower with Maya Williams

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hey, Jamie, Hey Kitlyn, I feel infinite? Do you feel infinite?

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Okay? No, but okay, God, you're having a nice time.
Seems like maybe you've had a pop brownie, but like
maybe it's your first time doing this. Yeah, yeah, it'll
feel that way. Oh my god, I texted you this,
Kaitlin when we were This is very dark. But first

(00:43):
of all, I am a recent Pittsburgh like obsessive. I
love Pittsburgh. I went for the first time last month,
and I'm just like, Pittsburgh's amazing. So it's happy to
see Pittsburgh. However, every time they're standing up in that
damn tunnel, I'm waiting for like a hored terry moment,
I was like, this is so like Emma Watson's head is.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Gonna burst off, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, I couldn't stop the I rewatched Hereditary recently and
that's on me. But like every time they would stay
I was like, you, I went full. It's so fun
watching teen movies now that you're like, now that I'm
like aunt aged and I'm just like, don't you're gonna
You're gonna get hurt. Kids. Stop. I loved that scene.
This movie is so corny. I love it. Yeah, all right,

(01:29):
Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show
where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point to initiate
larger conversations. But Jamie, what even is that?

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Oh? Well, I can tell you. The Bechdel Test was
created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel
Wallace Test. It was originally written as a one off joke,
a bit in Alison Bechdel's comment collection Dikes to Watch
out For, but has since become a metric that people

(02:09):
used to to see how much movies are interested in men.
So there's a lot of different versions of this test.
The version we use requires that two people of a
marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something
other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.
I guess not people. It could be cartoon squirrels. I

(02:32):
don't know why I said people. I feel like that's
really putting movies at a box, because then car, what
about cars?

Speaker 3 (02:38):
What about cars? And that's a question that only we
are brave enough to ask.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, so I apologize for my misspeaking. Uh not just
people anyways, that's what the Bechdel test is.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah. Also, not to derail us, but your mention of
cartoon squirrels reminded me of our episode on National Treasure,
which I recently re listened to an anticipation of I
don't know, maybe are we going to cover National Treasure too.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
It's almost like you texted me about it yesterday and
we're like, and I didn't answer right away, and then
you're like bump, like, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
I was like, please answer me right now. We have
to do it. But the joke we kept making in
the first National Treasure episode was about how Justin Bartha
is basically a cartoon squirrel like Disney animal sidekick person.
We were right about that, Yeah, we were right about that.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think even honestly, Justin Bartha would agree, would agree
and maybe even be flattered. I hope I have not.
I'm you know, I'm pro Bartha. It's true, you are.
I always happened.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Well, that didn't pass the Bechdel test.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
No I didn't. It did not oops, not even close.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
And today we have we have two exciting bits of news.
We have a Bartha List movie and we have an
amazing guest.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
We sure do.

Speaker 5 (04:05):
I'm better than Justin Bartha. That's so nice.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Better than Bartha. Ooh, new shirt in coming seems a
little mean spirited, but it's true.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Well, I also think he might agree with that.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
I know, I like that. We have decided that Justin
Bartha is very humble. That's just how we characterized him
in or that's headcannon for the Bechdel cast. Justin Bartha
humble bumble.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah, maybe that's.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
The merch Yeah yeah, we designed sure he could Justin
Bartha not to do the Alfred Molina game, but Justin
Bartha could have played the Paul Red character in this movie.
Oh sure, Bartha. I mean not that he should have.
I feel like Paul Red Cool Teacher is like this movie.

(04:54):
I'm so excited to talk about it because it is
like so twenty twelve, even though it takes place in
nineteen ninety one, You're like, this is the most twenty
twelve movie that's ever come out, where like Emma Watson
can do an American accent, Paul Rudd, cool teacher, like
just there, she can't do an America.

Speaker 5 (05:13):
For folks who can't say me, I did like a Soso.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Movement a Watson. You know what, what can I say? Okay?

Speaker 6 (05:24):
So I think the word Alfred Molina turns up in
the history of like a search engine for Bechdel cast
like one hundred and nine tags or something like that.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
That's good.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
So cool.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
What I hear when you say that is could be higher,
could be more. Yeah, and we've.

Speaker 5 (05:43):
Still go higher. Yes you do?

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, wow, Yeah, let's get to work on that.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
In the meantime, the movie today is The Perks of
Being a Wallflower. Our guest is a religious, black, multiracial,
none binary suicide survivor who is currently the seventh Poet
Laureate of Portland, Maine. Air debut collection, Judas and Suicide
is available now via Game Over Books. Maya was one

(06:13):
of three artists of color selected to represent Maine in
the Kennedy Center's Arts across America series in twenty twenty.
They recently published essays in venues such as The Daily Beast,
Black Girl, Nerds, Honey Literary, and The Rumputs. Maya was
also selected as one of the Advocates Champions of Pride

(06:35):
in twenty twenty two, and you can follow more of
their work at Maya williamspoet dot com. It's Maya Williams.

Speaker 5 (06:45):
Welcome. Come, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
I love I love listening to y'allso so much.

Speaker 6 (06:52):
Y'all have gotten me through so many, so many drives
and just so much. And y'all are hilarious and y'all
are really it and thank you. And also Jamie ghost Church,
Oh my gosh, obsessed.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (07:10):
You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
The only good thing to happen in Florida kind of. Oh,
We're so happy you're here. I'm happy to be doing
this for a bit. So we're covering perks of being
a ware flower wallfire wallflower, long, long, long time requests
from our listeners.

Speaker 5 (07:31):
Amazing, I did not know. Pat.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, I feel like this is like a late millennial classic.
Oh yes, but I'm curious.

Speaker 5 (07:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
So it's Oh, now we get to hear me say
someone's last name for the first time. Written and directed
by Stephen.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
Schabowski, that was my best gift.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Let's go at that. And he also wrote the book.
So I think it's it's I feel like that's very
rare where you get an adaptation where it's like, well,
it's just this guy, and usually it likes switch a
tant So I think it's like really interesting. So, Maya,
what's your history with the Perks of being a Wallflower?
The movie, the book, the Expanded Universe.

Speaker 6 (08:12):
My history with it. I read the book when I
was in high school. I watched the movie, and I
remember like watching the commentaries as like a teenager too
and like being so yeah, I was so obsessed with
it at the time. And then, like, while writing my
poetry collection Judas and Suicide, had been revisiting a lot

(08:33):
of the movies that first brought up suicidality for me
in a formative way. So then i rewatched this movie,
rewatch the commentaries and everything, and I'm like, hmm, twenty
seven year old me still loves this, and also, huh,
fuck Charlie, fuck Patrick.

Speaker 5 (08:54):
So I'm really excited to dive in.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, yes, here we go, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
There's oh, there's there's so much going on in this
damn movie, Jamie.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
What's your relationship with it?

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I really didn't have much of a relationship with this movie. Weirdly,
I think it's like a micro micro generational thing where
this came out like when I was early in college,
and I think I was like, I'm cal I like,
you've talked about this different for different movies of like
I'm in college now, I don't watch movies about high schoolers. Wow,
And so I missed this movie. I didn't. I didn't

(09:31):
see it, and then I just kind of never got
around watching it. And then by the time I thought
to watch it, I was like, I don't want to
watch a movie with Ezra Miller in it, right, But
it's I read it was I think last year was
the ten year anniversary of this movie, and I saw
a lot written about it, sort of as a retrospective.
And I'm really excited you brought us this movie because
I feel like this movie is doing a lot and

(09:54):
it's also not doing a lot. It's a it's a
pretty fascinating thing. I mean, what I will say is
I I enjoyed this movie based on it's just like
raw sincerity, and like, I feel like there's especially with
movies that are like this baldly sincere, people will always

(10:14):
kind of dunk on them. But yeah, I like that
if like that's teen, movies should be wildly sincere from
time to time. That's okay, It's just the other stuff
that we have to talk about, right, But yeah, I
I generally enjoyed this movie, and I think it's very
interesting to watch with twenty twenty three goggles on. I

(10:36):
know that if I had seen this movie when I
was twelve, I would have lost my shit. Caitlyn, what's
your history of this movie? Had you seen it before
I had?

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yes? I think I don't know, maybe three or four
years ago. I have never read the book, But this
is a book that everyone I went to high school
with and everyone I went to college with talked about
it incessantly. And I don't know if it was a
regional thing because I grew up in western Pennsylvania and
Pittsburgh is the closest major city to where I'm from. Wow,

(11:07):
And I went to penn State for undergrad and did
get a bachelor's degree in film and television, something that
I actually never mentioned, but because it's such a Pennsylvania
centric movie and there's lots there's lots of references, like
when she's like, you have to go to the diner
and get grilled stickies, I was like, you do have

(11:29):
to do that. But I just never bothered with the book.
I don't know why. And then the movie came and
went and I was like, well into adulthood, so I
was like, I don't need to be watching coming of
age stories. I've already done that. So but then a

(11:51):
few years ago I watched it, and then when I
started rewatching it for this episode, I realized that every
memory I have of this is actually from Edge of
seventeen because I think I watched them around the same time,
and they there's I feel like they're similar coming of
age like high school movies. Though I did see this one,

(12:13):
I just didn't remember anything from it, so not much
of an attachment to it except for the reference to
grilled stickies and the several references to Olive Garden.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Ough. I mean, truly, this movie is doing things that others.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
The Olive Garden reference representation is at an all time high.
It's true in this movie.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
And I also, I mean not that this is like,
but I was, like, how many movies take place in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
It's just like, not a lot.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
The dad is a Penguins fan. It's kind of fun anyways, Yeah, yeah,
this is I mean. And also I guess for listeners
this episode and this movie if you haven't seen it before, Yeah,
there will be talk about suicidality as well as child
sex abuse in the space of this which I did

(13:12):
not see coming at the end of the movie I watched.
I mean, I usually watched stuff twice for the show,
but like, I definitely had to watch this movie twice
to go back and watch it with that knowledge. And
I don't know, we have so much to talk about,
but just if those are sensitive issues for you, that's
going to come up in this episode for.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Sure, Let's take a quick break and then come right
back for the recap. Okay, So the movie is set
in the early nineties in a suburb of Pittsburgh. Ever

(13:54):
heard of it?

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, we Pittsburgh number one fan Heinz Ketchup Factory.

Speaker 6 (13:59):
What a Bye raw doc now by Jamie.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
I was disappointed that they didn't mention how close they
were to a ketchup factory the whole movie, but major oversight,
something to think about for next time.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
We meet Charlie played by Logan Lherman. He is writing
a letter to someone we don't know who, and I
think we never find out, right, right.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:31):
Well.

Speaker 6 (14:31):
In the commentary, Stephen Chabaski says so for the book
he wants to keep dear Friend personal to him, but
for the movie, dear Friend is you as in the
viewer audience and my and my emotional ass cry.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
This movie is so corny.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
It is like pure American cheese, white America.

Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, oh god, very white.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, emphasis on the white.

Speaker 5 (15:05):
There's only one black actor and he does not speak.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
I was I that. I feel like that is also
a very twenty twelve instinct to be like, sure, we
can have a like an openly queer character, but then
we'll have to hedge our bets by making sure every
cast member is white. And you're like, no, you don't
have to do that, or you could just make a movie,
like you could just cast a movie to look like

(15:30):
a place that exists.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Wow. But then they were like, but it's twenty twelve,
which you.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Can tell from the weird Oh my god, I had
really I don't know. What a troubled time in youth fashion.
The early twenty tens was where you're seeing like I
was like, why were we wearing these like little sweaters
that were for grandma's but they were actually for teenagers.
It was so confusing how fem teenagers were just walking

(15:56):
around in these little sweaters.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yes, what a moment, But again, it was set. It's
set in the early nineties, so it should be like
nineties fashion.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I don't know, I know, but I was like, that's
a twenty twelve little sweater. I know that damn sweater.
Sure it is not warm.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Okay. So he's writing a letter explaining how he spent
some time in the hospital. He alludes to some mental
health issues. He says he doesn't really have any friends,
but tomorrow is his first day of high school and
he's hoping to turn things around. So he goes to school.

(16:35):
His sister Candace and her boyfriend.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Nina doprev You're just like Vampire Diaries, Degrassi. I could
go on diet wine. I think that's what she's feeling
right now.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
So Candace and her boyfriend Derek aka Ponytail, Derek aka
Nicholas Brawn aka cousin Greg from Succession aka recently disgraced
actor Nicholas.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yes, not only is he a piece of shit, it's
not the first time he's played a character named Derek,
because he also played Derek and Zola.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Oh my gosh, I always forget he's in that movie.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Wow. Yeah, he plays a guy named Derek. A lot
she was anyways, you hate to see it?

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, okay. So his sister and Derek won't let Charlie
sit with them at lunch because it's the Earth Club
is for seniors only, and he's a freshman and he's
a loser. Also, his friend from middle school and his
older brother's friend, Brad both ignore Charlie, so his attempts

(17:40):
to make friends is not working. Then in shop class,
he meets Patrick played by Ezra Miller, who is a
senior who is picking on a teacher rather than freshman
as the other seniors tend to do. So Charlie immediately
likes Patrick.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Quick comment on we'll just circle back and acknowledge it
as remeller stuff. A little later in the episode, but
the actor playing Brad I was like losing it. I
was like, what I've seen this person, I've seen this
person and it didn't come through a young Neil from
Scott Pilgrim correct and Chip from Jennifer's body. Kind of
a camp hero. Yes, this guy true name's Johnny Simmons.

(18:21):
Good for him.

Speaker 6 (18:22):
He's the kid who He's the kid who dies in
the beginning of twenty one Jump Street.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Oh my god, what a legacy.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Not to brag, but I have twenty one and twenty
two Jump Street on DVD.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
So thoughts, brave, thank you, I still have not. I've
seen twenty one, I haven't seen twenty two, but people
love those movies.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
I think they're very funny.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Although ACAB includes twenty one Jump Street, it.

Speaker 5 (18:51):
Just does, Yes, it sure does.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
It does anyway.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, what a career Johnny Simmons.

Speaker 6 (18:59):
Yeap.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
So, then Charlie goes to English class with his teacher,
mister Paul Rudd.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Go chal Rudd grew out his hair and is like,
to kill a bocky bird? Ever heard of it? And
you're like, this is a lot. Yes, this is so
teen movie.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Charlie knows all of the answers to mister Paul Rudd's questions,
but he doesn't participate because he's so shy. He's a wallflower.
Then at home we meet his mom and dad played
by Kate Walsh and Dylan McDermott, who reassure him that
he is going to make friends. Then at a football game,

(19:37):
Charlie approaches Patrick, they chat, they become friendly. Charlie also
meets Sam played by Emma Watson.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
They do this shot or I mean, I just like
Halo shot. Yeah, it's just I just want to really
embrace and point out this movie's beautiful corniness where yeah,
the first shot Emma and she's framed like she's God,
and there's all these shots where she's like, Oh, it's

(20:06):
just so it's it's weird because I would say she's
not really a not like other girl's character because we
know a fair amount about her. I think she's like
characterized pretty well, but the way she's framed is definitely
not like other girl's characters.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Here's what I wrote in my notes, Calm Pixie dream
girl because she's not very manic, she's pretty calm, but
she is a Pixie dream girl.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
She's definitely I mean, the Pixie's there, the dream Girl's there.
But yeah, she's a pretty she's pretty chill.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Chill pixie dream girl.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
Also, her first line of dialogue is something like I
have a question, Oh my god, could there be anything
more disgusting than the bathrooms? Or something like that. I'm like,
are you Chandler from Friends.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Ladies and Gentlemen. Emma Watson's American accent, it's she's trying
it out and we have to deal with it.

Speaker 5 (20:55):
The Harry Pottery it gets better in Little Women, it
gets better.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
It does get better a Little Women. Give her seven years,
she'll figure it out. There's like she's very like, she's
like young in this movie. I'm only dunking on her
because I would dunk on any of the three main
characters in Harry Potter. All of their American accents are bad,
especially oh my god, sorry this is off the roils today.
But Rupert Grint in Knock at the Cabin, Oh my god.

(21:22):
They made his character from Boston for some reason, and
he's like blowing it. He's like, I don't know why.
They were like, not only are you doing an American accent,
it's like the most difficult regional accent to do. And
he's like, I'm from Waltham and you're like, oh god,
this is brutal. I loved it.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
It's like when Anya Taylor Joy, who speaks English with
a British accent, was from Brockton. Brockton, right, yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, and that was a big moment for my hometown
people thinking that Anya Taylor Joy might be from there.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
What was that movie again? Something on the menu?

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Right, the menu, Hot Girl cheeseburger. Anyways, Yeah, Emma, Emma
Watson is a chill Pixie dream girl. She's wearing her sweaters,
she's doing her American accent, and the movie is like,
you're in love with her, So you're like, all right.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yes indeed. So Patrick and Sam invite Charlie to hang
out with them after the football game. They talk about music.

Speaker 6 (22:22):
Oh my, the part where Patrick's like, oh, don't let
her give her music, she'll ruin your life. And Charlie's
like that's okay. I'm like, chill, that's so sick. I
have too much.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
I have to keep reminding myself that Charlie's fourteen, sure,
because sometimes I'm just like this fucking kid. I'm like, okay,
he is fourteen, this fucking kid. But it's confusing because
like whatever Logan Lerman is visibly twenty two, So it's
hard to be like he's fourteen because you're like, but
that's all but that's a man. Wow. Anyways, what can

(22:59):
you do?

Speaker 3 (22:59):
So Charlie he finds out that Patrick and Sam are
step siblings. He assumes that they're dating, but they're like tea,
he no, this is my stepbrother. Then they drive through
a tunnel where Sam is like standing up in the
bed of Patrick's truck while Heroes by David Bowie plays,

(23:19):
But they're like, oh my god, what is this song?

Speaker 1 (23:23):
I love? I liked that too, because I feel like
that is such a teenage thing to hear a really
famous song for the first time and then be like
this song rules and yeah, everyone like over twenty five
is like yeah, yeah, it kind of famously does. It's see.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
So then there's a scene where Charlie gets back home
from hanging out with his new friends and he sees
his sister's boyfriend being physically abusive to her, and she
makes him promise not to tell their parents, which will
become a recurring mot heath of like keeping a secret,

(24:03):
So we'll put a pin in that. Then it's time
for the homecoming dance and Charlie musters up the courage
to go on the dance floor where Patrick and Sam
are dancing to come on, Eileen.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Then she's not like the other girls, dancing big time,
going for it.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Then they go to this kid Bob's party, where Patrick
introduces Charlie to Mary Elizabeth played by May Whitman, and
Alice played by Aaron will Helmy. They're part of this
friend group as well. Charlie eats a weed brownie for
the first time, not knowing it's a weed brownie, so

(24:47):
he gets high and he's like, why do the marching
band get letterman jackets? It's not even a sport, And
then the other yes, but then the other kids are like,
this kid's so wild, like oh my god, and it's
just like he didn't say anything at all really.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Though he changed the game that day. Yeah, it's so
funny how he's like being only a little bit weird,
he's being like five percent weird, and everyone's like, whoa
this kid? What's going on with this kid? You're right,
we got to meet more people. But maybe that's just
high school.

Speaker 5 (25:23):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
He also mentions to Sam that his best friend recently
died by suicide.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
That's a detail that opens up in the book as
to why he's hospitalized the death of his friend who
died by suicide.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, got it, so that that is because Yeah, in
the movie it really doesn't come up very much.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
I think that's the only time it gets mentioned at
least explicitly.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah. And then while they're still at the party, Charlie
accidentally walks in on Patrick and that guy Brad kissing,
and Patrick takes Charlie aside and asks him to promise
not to say anything like this will be our little secret,
so more of this motif. Then Patrick toasts Charlie and

(26:14):
he says, you're one of us. Now, you're you're our friend.
You see things, you understand, you're a wallflower, and we're like, whoo,
that's the name of the movie title.

Speaker 6 (26:29):
I do find it very endearing though, with Charlie's like
what did I do and he's and Patrick's like, you
don't have to do anything.

Speaker 5 (26:35):
I'm like, that's actually very fixed.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, Like there are many elements of this movie. They
are very sweet and like down to like the really
corny Paul Rudd being like, we accept the love we
think we deserve and you're like yeah, sure, Like very
it's like very profound in a way that you're like,
it's too profound, but I am crying, so whatever. Yeah,

(27:02):
I do love it. It's like he was right to
say it anyways.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
I mean, I guess he's not wrong. But that also
happens in a scene where where Charlie goes to mister
Paul Rudd and he's like, why doesn't the girl I
like like me back, And I'm just like Charlie.

Speaker 5 (27:20):
I think that's what was happening.

Speaker 6 (27:21):
I think it was because like he saw his sister
with the abusive dude in the hallway and then he
came in. Because in the book he tells the teacher
what happened to his sister and it becomes a whole thing,
but they don't.

Speaker 5 (27:34):
Do that in the movie.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Someon Wow, Okay, yeah, I would love to, you know, hear,
because it's it's I mean, I know that there's also
like producer decisions, Like it's not like Steven Schabowski has
like carte blanche with what ends up in the movie,
but because he's adapting his own work, I feel like
that's really interesting that some stuff is like opened up
on in the movies and other stuff is held back

(27:56):
on that's I like that. I like that much better.
M Yeah, yeah, I guess I misunderstood. I was interpreting
that as like, because this is also because Sam has
been dating this guy named Craig who says something like,
I don't write poetry.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Poetry write poetry.

Speaker 5 (28:14):
Write.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Beautiful No no, Maya as a poet pictures.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
I know, as a poet, may does poetry write you?

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Does poetry write you?

Speaker 5 (28:28):
Jesus, oh my god.

Speaker 6 (28:32):
Craig is the white Cis dude at the open mic
who's all like, this isn't gonna take long, and he
exceeds the three minute timeline like.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
An ah, yet it's saying nothing at all that part.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
So so anyway, so Sam is dating this guy Craig,
and I was interpreting that as like, Charlie's jealous and
he likes Sam and he wants to date Sam, and
he sees that Craig isn't good for her. So that's
what I thought that comment was more about in the movie.
But in any case, Charlie has friends now and he,

(29:13):
like I mentioned, has a crush on Sam, who he
likes despite her quote unquote reputation which we will get
into later. He gives her a mixtape, but again she's
dating this kid named Craig. And then we get that
scene where he asks mister Paul Rudd about why do
nice people date the wrong people? And he says, we

(29:37):
accept the love we think we deserve.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
And then every teenager in the crowd is like wow.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
Meanwhile, Charlie is going with his friends to see Mary
Elizabeth's live production of Rocky Horror Picture Show. They're going
to parties together. Charlie is helping Sam study for the SATs, so.

Speaker 6 (30:00):
Many like I someone who works with you, I'm just
I'm just like, how how did they get away with
performing Rocky like this each time?

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Especially high schoolers? Like this seems like a very involved
production that would take a lot of time and rehearsals,
and there's costumes and.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
There doesn't seem like there was an adult involved in
the entire not to say that kids could not coordinate
this on their own. Yeah, I was sort of I
just sort of like wrote down like was this what
the early nineties was? Like?

Speaker 3 (30:30):
I don't think, I mean, the budget for it seems
pretty hot, Like I don't know, I'm like, yeah, where
are the adults? Like?

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Also, was I I'm pretty sure that Emma Watson's hair
length changes for just those scenes. Way, okay, yeah, because
I okay, now I can rest.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
She has significantly longer. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
In the play, she's Susan Sarandon, which sure, yes.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
So they're all hanging out, they're exchanging Christmas gifts. Charlie
wants to be a writer when he grows up, so
Patrick gives him a suit because back in the day,
great writers always wore great suits, and Sam gives him
a typewriter. And it's around this point in the movie
when I realized that it has basically the same premise

(31:23):
as Almost Famous, because both movies are about like a
nerdy teen boy who wants to be a writer and
who loves music, and he falls in love with an
older girl who has a quote unquote bad reputation and
who dates shitty older guys. And then the teen boy

(31:43):
starts piling around with these like cooler people who introduce
him to sex, drugs, and rock and roll, And I'm like, wow,
that is both of these movies.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
This is kind of like a more the Pittsburgh version
of that exactly, but yeah, there is, I mean, and
we'll talk about this too, but like both of those
the young men that are the leads of those movies. Yeah,
it's like made to seem like, oh, it's they're so
accepting that they would be interested in like a girl

(32:14):
who quote unquote gets around or all the you know,
kind of bizarre phrasing you here, which, well, okay, we'll
get back to it.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Right, right, right, And then Sam takes Charlie aside and
asks if he has ever kissed a girl, and he's like,
he no, So she kisses him and he's like, oh.

Speaker 5 (32:38):
I'm gonna interject very quickly. Yeah, the book is is
so much more endearing.

Speaker 6 (32:44):
The book is a lot more endearing because like Sam
talks about like and they briefly mentioned it in this
scene of the movie too, but but yeah, she talks
about how her how her first kiss was with someone
that her father knew that was significantly older, so there
was abuse going on in the house and she's crying
and Charlie is comforting her, and then and she's like,

(33:05):
I want your first kiss to be with someone who
actually loves you, because I didn't get that right. And
it's so much more endearing, and like it's so it
does disappoint me that, like this scene in the movie
is more so colored with like flirty, chill pixie dream
girl things.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
And it's right, Yeah, the way you're describing it sounds
really this does make you want to read the book.
It sounds like a very sweet book. I mean, yeah,
that seems like it's certainly not like I stand out
like bad version of a scene like that, but it
sounds like it was written a little differently. That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah. So yeah, they have a kiss, and then it's
Charlie's birthday, which is the same day as Christmas Eve,
his brother Chris comes home from Penn State for the holidays, plus.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
The same day that Aunt Helen dies, yes many years.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned Aunt Helen yet,
but we have been getting a few flashbacks throughout the
movie of young Charlie when he's probably like six or
seven or some age around there, and his aunt Helen
played by Melanie Lynsky, who Charlie mentions was his favorite

(34:21):
person in the world and who we learn died in
a car accident on his birthday while she was like
going to get his birthday gift. And she also refers
to something being their little secret, but we don't know
what she's talking about yet. Then Charlie tells his brother

(34:44):
that he plans to ask Sam out on New Year's Eve,
but she's kissing that guy, Craig, so he does acid instead.
He I think, ends up passing out outside like in
the snow He's hospital. There are more allusions to mental

(35:04):
health episodes he has had where he was seeing things.
Some other stuff happens, like Charlie plays Rocky in Mary
Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror, which she asks him to
the Stadie Hawkins Dance. Then she takes him home and
kisses him and she's like, wow, I can't believe you're

(35:27):
my boyfriend. And he's like what, And we are like
why is a senior dating a freshman boy?

Speaker 1 (35:37):
I mean, yeah, I'm today. I will not be litigating
high school at age gaps in dating. I simply refuse
to enter that discourse. However, However, I love Mary Elizabeth.
There's like elements of Mary Elizabeth, especially as her story

(35:57):
goes on, where it's like, oh, it's so visceral and
like painful to to watch how that relationship goes. And yes, yeah, god,
there were elements of like Mary Elizabeth. I was like, oh,
that was what I was like when I was a
teenage girlfriend. And it's so devastating when you're like, wait,
you don't want to talk every single second of every

(36:18):
single day.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Will Yeah, she's she's a lot.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yeah, she's a lot.

Speaker 6 (36:25):
In the in the commentary, May Woman who plays her,
she she advocated for Mary Elizabeth's hair to look the
way that it does. Originally, Steven Schabaski was like nah,
and then and then, and then he was like, oh no,
actually this does work.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
Okay, nice, Oh that's the best.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
So Charlie kind of gets trapped into this relationship that
he didn't even know he was in at first. Yeah,
and he doesn't know how to tell her that he
does not want to go out with her. It's almost
like he sees her and he's like her, that's an
arrested development reference. And then he effectively breaks up with

(37:02):
her during a game of Truth or Dare when Patrick
dares Charlie to kiss the prettiest girl in the room.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
So this scene, it's so stressful.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
So Charlie kisses Sam instead of Mary Elizabeth, who is
sitting right there, and everyone is really pissed at Charlie
and none of his friends want to see him for
a while.

Speaker 6 (37:28):
In this movie, Patrick says a line to Charlie going like,
you know, there's this thing between Mary Elizabeth and Sam.
You know, they just have this thing with guys. That
shit was not in the book. Oh really, that was
not there. So I'm frustrated by this scene for that reason.

Speaker 5 (37:47):
Weird, like, fuck Charlie, Fuck Patrick. It's awful.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
So the movie makes Sam and Mary Elizabeth kind of
like frenemies almost in a way that the book didn't.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, sucks, I was like because I didn't. Again, that
was like something that was just said offhand once and
then that's the only insight that you get into their friendship.
I mean, that was like one of the I know that,
like Charlie is the central character of this movie, but
the fact that you don't get to see women really interact,
Like you see women near each other often, but you

(38:20):
don't see them talking to each other often, which is
technically a huge focus of our show. But it was
but I hated that that. I hate that that's kind
of the only insight you get into Sam and Mary
Elizabeth's friendship because we're like they've known each other their
whole lives and this is like, the the only fact

(38:40):
you get about this friendship is that they've like clashed
over guys, which is like the most lazy, trite way
to Yeah, right, that's that's so weird that that was added,
like especially because it's like Stephen Shrubowsky added it, right,
and for what reason? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Yeah, it wasn't even in his original source Mato and
he's like if.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
They made it worse?

Speaker 6 (39:03):
Yeah, And then in that commentary, May Whitman was like, oh,
this was helpful for my character, and I'm.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Like, no, no, this is no may.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Man. God, I love I feel like Waymitman. May Whitman
doesn't get the credit she deserves for having like range,
She's got, she's got real range.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
She's a past yes indeed. Okay. So meanwhile Patrick's secret boyfriend, Brad,
Brad's dad catches them twogether so they cannot see each
other anymore, and a physical fight breaks out between Patrick
and Brad at school and the like jock guys start

(39:53):
punching Patrick, but Charlie steps in. He seems to kind
of black out, and and when he comes to, he
has beaten the guys who were ganging up on Patrick,
effectively saving Patrick. Because of this because of like Charlie's
standing up for Patrick, his friends forgive him and let

(40:15):
Charlie back into the friend group. One night, Patrick confides
in Charlie about what happened between him and Brad, and
then Patrick's surprise kisses Charlie. He then apologizes, and Patrick
just seems very lonely and upset. I'm not excusing him

(40:35):
surprise kissing someone, but that's kind of the context of
that scene. But then things start to look up for
everyone because Mary Elizabeth has a new boyfriend she got
into Harvard. Sam is going to Penn State, Patrick is
going to the University of Washington. Everyone is excited and

(40:56):
they're doing great, except for Charlie, whose mental health seems
to be getting worse, especially knowing that all of his
friends are about to leave. Then it's the last day
of school. Sam is getting ready to head to Penn
State for the summer semester, which, by the way, is
something that Penn State made me do too. They're like, oh,

(41:17):
if you want to start at main campus, Oh, that's
a thing. Yeah, I think they I honestly think it's
actually a money making scheme, but they're just like, we
don't think you're ready for main campus yet, So you
can either come in the summer or you can go
to a branch campus for two years and then transfer
to main campus.

Speaker 5 (41:36):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
And they made it seem like my grades weren't good
enough or something or I don't even know what, but
they're like, we don't think you're going to succeed here
unless you give us extra money. So I went to
I had to start early and go in the summer,
and I was so unhappy about it, But then when
I was there, I was like, oh, wait, I hate

(41:57):
my hometown and this is much better.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yeah, which I I do like that. They basically have
Sam have that reaction Whereason it's like, yeah, the second
I left her, my life got way better, but it's
nice to see you. It's like, yeah, that's the best
case scenario.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
Okay. So Sam is getting ready to head to Penn
State and she's like, Charlie, why didn't you ever ask
me out? And he's like, I'm shy, and then he
kisses her and then they have sex. I think it's implied.

Speaker 5 (42:33):
In the book.

Speaker 7 (42:34):
They start doing so, and then as she's touching him,
he's like stop and starts crying and he's like I'm
not I'm not ready and we know why right.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
In the movie, they kiss and then that does happen
where she like puts her hand on his knee or
something and he's like he kind of withdraws and she's like,
what's the matter and he's like nothing, and then they
start kissing again, and then they kind of like collapse
onto the bed, and then the camera pans up the
way the camera pans up when people start having sex
in a movie. So I'm like, I think it's implied

(43:10):
that they have sex, but it's not totally clear either way.
They say goodbye the next day and she leaves, which
kind of triggers a flood of memories for Charlie, things
from his recent past, as well as more flashbacks of
Aunt Helen which indicate that she was sexually abusing him

(43:31):
as a child. He starts crying and having a breakdown.
He is blaming himself for his aunt dying because again
she was killed on her way to go get his gift.
But he's like, what if I wanted her to die
because of the abuse, And then we cut to him
in the hospital where, with the help of doctor Joan Cusack,

(43:56):
he starts.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
To put a fun twist or we're okay. Great.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
So he starts to acknowledge what happened and he starts
to heal. He goes back home with his family. Sam
comes home from Penn State to visit after a few months,
and she's like, I finally found the Tunnel song. It's
by someone I don't know if you've heard of him,

(44:23):
David Bowie.

Speaker 6 (44:24):
Anyway, the Tunnel Song is different than the book. I
forget which one, but I know it's definitely.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Not a tape something that they couldn't get the rights to.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
I read it was Landslide by fleetwood Man, which I
think would actually be kind. I don't know. I'm sure
it would be like beautiful, but I think it also
be I don't know. I think they went with a
good song for her for it. Landlid's too slow for
a Ton's a bit of a downer.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
That's true.

Speaker 6 (44:52):
Also in the book, they're not like standing up against
the car either, so really gotta make it worthy. I guess, yeah,
have stunt coordinators with them standing against the car.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
It seems so dangerous, Like you said, Jamie, a head
could pop off at any moment.

Speaker 5 (45:08):
Yeah. Throughout the commentary they were all like, don't try
this at home. There was a harness.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
I want to listen to the commentary now it sounds
very wholesome.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
So anyway, they go through the tunnel again and now
it's Charlie's turn to stand up as David Bowie is playing.
And that is the end of the movie. So let's
take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss,

(45:42):
and we're.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Back, baby. I just wanted to before we get into
the discussion, just acknowledge that this is the movie that
made as Ra Miller a star. And I don't know,
it's like often difficult to like know how to like
address stuff like this on our show and then just

(46:04):
go into the conversation. But like, we are very well
aware of the allegations and just proven abuses that Ezra
Miller that have surfaced about Azra Miller. We're going to
include a link in the description if you're not aware,
and do you want to sort of be brought up

(46:24):
to speed. I don't think that this is like really
the place to go into things in detail, but yeah,
I think it's worth acknowledging that, like Azra Miller, it
seems like a pretty spectacularly abusive person and has benefited
from so much privilege that they are still as we
were recording, like the Flash came out this weekend and

(46:46):
they're still, you know, headlining these huge banner movies.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
And at the time of this recording, the director of
the Flash is like, yeah, I know all about the
stuff that Asra did, but I have no an attention
of recasting them, no like comment. They are going to
stay in the Flash series. So it's the classic Hollywood
story of abusers allowing to continue having a career because

(47:18):
people don't want to hold people accountable.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, and particularly white actors being shielded right from any consequence.
So I just wanted to acknowledge that at the top. Yes,
and is.

Speaker 5 (47:31):
There a link?

Speaker 6 (47:32):
Is there going to be a link available for Nicholas
Brown too? Because I had no idea until y'all mentioned it.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
Yes, Yes, we will definitely include a link. And what
I noticed is that it hasn't been covered by the
bigger media outlets, which I wonder why that is. But yeah,
it feels like it's been kind of swept under the rug.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
It was very Yeah, it did get It felt very
like media timing, like got swept under the rug because
Succession was currently airing, and now that succession is over,
it's like, okay, can we discuss this now, like for
fuck's sake? Anyways, Well, we'll include both of those links.
And there's yeah, elements of this movie that certainly age

(48:15):
like milk, those casting choices being two of them. Anyways,
as far as the movie goes, MAYA, where would you
like to start the discussion? Does anything jump out at you?

Speaker 6 (48:28):
The scene where Charlie's on phone with his sister and
she's like, get the police to my house, Like.

Speaker 5 (48:36):
Oh my god, oh my god, it's so weird.

Speaker 6 (48:40):
How Like when I was younger watching this movie, I
didn't I didn't think anything of it. And then now
I watched this movie and im and I'm just like, oh,
this movie is so white. If this featured a black family,
this would not have gone well. And it's so weird.
Like the American Association of Suicide Prevention did a study
on entertain media and suicidality, and the majority of folks

(49:03):
that are typically showcased are white. And typically when black
people are are showcased, they're not showcased having like a
healing art or anything like that. Whereas Charlie here gets
one and of course, like all these positive interactions with
law enforcement.

Speaker 5 (49:17):
And in the book.

Speaker 6 (49:18):
Too, like he Charlie talks extensively about the nice cop
who comforted his mom having to report the death of
his aunt or whatever, and like god in the in
the commentary, they're all like, oh, look who made a
cameo appearance Emma Watson's bodyguard.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
Ooh, former NYPD ooh, and it's at Yeah, it's a gross.

Speaker 6 (49:41):
So every aspect of like law enforcement that's infiltrated in
the book in the film do.

Speaker 5 (49:46):
Not sit right with me.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of course. Yeah, that's
I was curious of like how that was covered in
the book as well. I mean I guess like the
further back you go probably the more lightened it goes. Yeah,
because that that I feel like that is like a
showing of like the writer's hand as coming from privilege,
especially being white and also being uh what we see

(50:11):
in a lot of teen movies where this movie isn't
an exception where it's like they're from like a wealthy suburb, right,
doesn't mean they don't have problems, but like another wealthy suburb,
big mansion party, teenager kind of movie.

Speaker 6 (50:24):
Yes, And then Charlie says like, oh, like, oh, you
gotta get me out of here. I can't afford being
hospitalized in joke. He's like, oh, don't worry about that.
I'm like, the right, yes, I'm gonna work about this.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
What it's like, Yeah, And I.

Speaker 5 (50:40):
Remember thinking that when I was younger too.

Speaker 6 (50:42):
I remember thinking that as a teenager, that being my
main critique as a teenager, I like the fuck, yes.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, that's something that I wonder how Stephen. I read
a few retrospective interviews, but I didn't see that specific
point come up, and I was kind of hoping that
it would because I do think that, like, yeah, I mean,
the cops are bad at everything, perpetuate harm at every level,
but like specific like are uniquely bad at dealing with

(51:09):
mental health crises. It's like that's well known and I
don't know. I don't know even though it's framed in
the movie. You're like, how could this possibly be helpful?
Like they're kicking in the door and scaring him, but right, yeah,
the way that, I don't know, I'm curious how what
you think is because I feel like this movie has

(51:29):
its heart in the right place in like wanting to
address suicidality and wanting to start a discussion about these
issues in a genuine way. And then yeah, there's like
elements that it's just like, clearly this perspective is really
really privileged or or just like not really thought through.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Yeah, this book was so The book that this movie
is based on is controversial in the sense that it's
been banned a lot because of its material. You know,
it addresses things like suicidal ideation and queerness and drug

(52:09):
use among teens and different things that you know, conservative
people and parents are like, I don't want my kids
reading about this. That's why I appreciate that the book
and the movie is willing to tackle those things. Because
a lot of coming of age movies or like teen
movies are I don't know, they're either kind of like

(52:31):
milk toast or they aren't necessarily getting into like what
it's really like to be a teenager.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
But this is a Secret Life of the American teenager
because Shalen's and not in this movie. She's in most
of the other ones. Though it's kind of shocking that
Shalene Woodley isn't in this movie, I know, right, it's
such as Shaleene Woodley coded movie.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Right, But my point is like the perspective is so
so white, and everything is told through this extremely white,
privileged lens that it isn't a like authentic teen experience
for so many people. So it's hard to stomach in

(53:22):
that way because even though again I appreciate its willingness
to tackle some of the darker aspects of of life,
it is done so through such a privileged lens.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, it definitely like it's and we've talked about this
on the show before too, where it's like no one
movie can address every single perspective, but this movie had
space to address far more than it chose to.

Speaker 5 (53:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Where Yeah, I mean it's like you're in like Pittsburgh
is a far more diverse city than this movie like
you to believe there was certainly room for like actually
building out some of the women that appear in this
story more. There is room for class diversity within this
movie that you don't really see except kind of in passing.

(54:15):
So yeah, it's like it's I feel like this this
feels very like stepping Stone movie E where it's like okay.

Speaker 5 (54:21):
Oh yeah for sure, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Like we'll we'll address these serious issues that should be
addressed in teen media, but everything else will be surround
like encased in whiteness and privilege.

Speaker 6 (54:33):
It's like Stephen Tabaski has like had said, like, oh,
it's such a huge thing in this movie made because
like movies like this don't get don't get made, and
like on when I don't want to take away the
fact that, yes.

Speaker 5 (54:44):
Movies are hard to get made.

Speaker 6 (54:46):
And at the time this movie was made, the actors
weren't paid as as well as they could have been
and whatnot, because everyone cared about the movie. And at
the same time, it's like you you still got into theaters,
you still have all of these white faces, you still
received enough critical acclaim to be talked about years later,
there are very much movies like this still being made.

Speaker 5 (55:08):
So it's it's just do better, truly.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Yeah, like fucking fucking dear Evan Handsome, I was about
to say, and then the fact that he clearly did
not learn very much because he went on to directly
what black person what like and in many ways, I
mean I have I honestly like I did not get
all the way through Dear Evan hants in the movie.
I was like, I'm out of here. I can't do it.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
I didn't even start it.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
But but it is like, in many ways, like an
even clumsier attempt to address many of the themes in
this movie. So you're like, well, I guess we know
that Steven Schabowski didn't grow as a person between twenty
twelve and twenty twenty two. Good to know, very very

(55:54):
bizarre es. Yeah there, maybe someday we'll punish ourselves and
cover dear Evan Hanson. It could be fun, okay, or not?

Speaker 5 (56:02):
Please invite me back.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
Yeah, it feels like punishment to be like, all right,
let me same themes, same amount of oppressive, rich white teenagers,
but now they sing talking about it with y'all.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
I would have a really good time.

Speaker 6 (56:16):
And also I have a book coming out in October,
so it's like, listen.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Yeah, if you want to be our resident Stephen Chubowski
guest of by all.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Means the best.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
The next thing I would like to talk about is
the several references to Sam's quote unquote bad reputation slash
shameful history. Where we first learned about it from voice over,
where Charlie said that he had asked his sister about

(56:51):
Sam saying that when she was a freshman, the upperclassman
would get her drunk at parties dot dot dot. I
guess she had a reputation, the implication there being that
she would get drunk and then have sex with these
people at parties. And then Charlie goes on to say,

(57:12):
but I don't care. I'd hate for her to judge
me based on what I used to be like and then.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Not like other boys.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
Fast forward a little bit in that scene where they're
talking about having their first kiss. This is when Sam
reveals that her first kiss was when she was eleven,
and her first kiss was with her dad's boss, so
an adult man she's eleven. We're like, oh my god,
that is so awful. Yeah, and then she pushes past it,

(57:43):
and then she starts talking about how she's like, I
used to sleep with guys who treated me like shit
and get wasted all the time, but now I feel
like I have a chance. So she's like talking about
like turning her life around. And so the way that
she talks about her experience and the way that her
friends seemed to interpret her experience, They're all like, Wow,

(58:08):
she used to be on a really bad path and
it was all her fault. But look at her turning around,
and it's unclear if she was consenting or able to
consent to the sex that she was having with these upperclassmen.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
There's like not enough information, right.

Speaker 6 (58:26):
And in the in the commentary, Steven Teabaski is all like, oh,
it was very important for me to emphasize this redemptive
arc for Sam.

Speaker 5 (58:34):
And I'm like, this feels gross redemption from what exactly.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
That's because Okay, that was a question that I had
about the because I was like, is because on one hand,
it's like, Okay, it is not inconceivable to me that
that's how teenagers in the early nineties might talk about that,
for sure, But if you're gonna do that, then the
movie has to like provide some sort of commentary that

(59:01):
that was an unfair way for her to be treated
and not just like keep but it's clear that Okay, So,
like that's just how Steven Chabaski feels, is that, like you,
a teenage girl would need redemption.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
From potentially being having sex regularly assaulted, right, And.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
It's like, yeah, And also I think it conflates just
the way that it's discussed in the movies so generally
conflates situations that we're consenting versus not where for me
at least, it was really hard to track what they
were talking about a lot of the time because she
described being assaulted, and then it seems like maybe also
she's having like she's it's just like unclear what's going on.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
Right, Well, the movie frames that that when she's talking
about it, she's speaking as though it was consensual. She's like,
I used to get drunk and sleep with these guys
because I was making bad decisions TIHI, And now she
feels all this shame attached to it, which so the
movie's framing from her point of view, the sex she

(01:00:05):
had was consensual, which may or may not be true,
like there's a spectrum of drunkenness where at least for me, yeah,
you can still consent, and it is not clear where
we just.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Don't have enough information.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
We just don't have enough information. But even if she
was consenting, there's still a power in balance where it's
she was a freshman, so she's like fourteen, and we're
talking about upperclassmen, so may you know probably like sixteen, seventeen,
maybe eighteen year old like junior seniors were led to believe,

(01:00:39):
so there's still a significant power and balance here. The
point is the movie makes it seem like she was
just making careless decisions and it's all her fault, and
now she's turning her life around and her friends are like, oh, wow,

(01:01:00):
that was a pretty shameful time of your past, but
we're not gonna judge you for it. You know, you're
you're turning yourself around now, so it's okay, right, That's
how the movie feels. That's clearly how Stephen Schabowski, yeah, feels.

Speaker 6 (01:01:14):
Apparently said, and Jamie, I want to honor what you
said about like not wanting to get too much into
like high school age gap discourse.

Speaker 5 (01:01:21):
I do want to honor that.

Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
And it's just very telling about what what high schoolers
tend to go through whenever you're seeking friendships, and oftentimes
with those age gaps, it's all like, oh, you seem
so mature for your age, and it's like and how
that creates a sense of trauma. And also it's like,
if I seem mature for my age, that also comes
from trauma, and you're just putting on more trauma by

(01:01:45):
being my friend or pretending to be my friend and like, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
Right, and then so Jamie, to your point about the
movie's conflation with like Sam, it's presented as though what
she was doing was consensual, it was her choice.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
And right, we're actually told that much of it is
not consensual and is actively abuse and an assault.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Is Yeah, because a lot of those moments are accompanied
by the flashbacks with young Charlie and Aunt Helen, and
then we learn that she was sexually abusing him.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Yeah, it's a swing and a miss on a huge issue.

Speaker 6 (01:02:24):
Yeah, And with Charlie having this knowledge earlier in the movie,
why would you not only hurt Mary Elizabeth, why would
you hurt Sam like that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Right, it's so like it's there are ways that like
characters can make mistakes, but the movie has to like
it's the responsibility of the writer in the movie to
telegraph that to their very young audience, because it just
feels like an endorsement, like a view of consent in

(01:02:57):
a way that's really confusing and like does not jive
with a lot of the events and themes of the movie.
And just like the theme of how to treat young
people having sex at all.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Yeah, I think like Sam feeling the way she feels
like all of this shame is completely understandable because people,
especially in this time frame, and even when the movie
came out in twenty twelve, we were still being conditioned
to think that, like, if we were the victim of assault,

(01:03:30):
it was our fault, and you know, all of this
victim blaming and slut shaming that's so pervasive because of
rape culture. It stands to reason that Sam would be
having these feelings of shame and that maybe even some
of her friends would be like, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Reinforcing them.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
Yeah, because again, we are all products of our environment
and we are we've all been conditioned to think this way.
But if there was at least one character who was,
like maybe someone older or maybe you know, a parent
or someone who could say, like, I understand why you
feel this way, but you don't need to because like,
this is not your fault, you are not to blame here,

(01:04:11):
something that would make it clear that this attitude of
like victim blaming and slut shaming is not the right attitude.
But that's again, like we said, just clearly what Stephen
Chebowski how he feels. So there's nothing in the movie
that challenges this, like very toxic mentality.

Speaker 6 (01:04:31):
Right, Like even when it comes to Patrick is supposed
to be like this cool step step brother to her
and like and even he makes comments in the movies
such as like I'll look at that toasty outfit. It's
not like it's original or anything, or like making comments
like like like oh my god, I.

Speaker 5 (01:04:47):
Told her, don't make yourself so small. It's like it's.

Speaker 6 (01:04:51):
Like when when gay men think it's okay that casual
sexism is totally fine, casual sexism is way too casual
for me, for Patrick, and it's like it's gross.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Yeah, right, yes, yes, very much, I think, like an
active trope and also just like bad queer representation on
top of that. Yeah, it reminds me so much. It's
it's this is such a weird movie to kind of
pick apart because I think that like Steven Schabowski in
certain cases as a writer, dodges what you kind of

(01:05:23):
come to expect of. Like I think he wrote this
book when he was like late twenties, early thirties, but
essentially like I.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Think he wrote it when he was in college.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Okay, well that doesn't really He's writing this script as
a man in his forties and still has the same
opinions of young women's sexuality and the shame associated with it,
and the complete conflation of abuse and consensual sex and
not making really an effort to say, yeah, it's just

(01:05:55):
it's it's unfair to Sam's character and then yeah, it's
like it, especially because he says himself like that, Oh,
isn't it like you know, making it seem like, oh,
I'm so creatively generous to have the people in her
life forgive her for this, and you're like, well, you
haven't even given us enough information to know what you're

(01:06:15):
allegedly forgiving her. Like but no matter what that answer is,
she doesn't need forgiveness, like whether it's consensual or especially
if it's abuse, Like what are you talking about? Is
confusing exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
Yeah, Like no redemption arc needed, Like it's.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Talking about her like she's kylo Ren or some shit
Like you're just like what are you talking about?

Speaker 5 (01:06:36):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Yeah, Like she did not do anything wrong. All she
wanted to do was get better sat scurse, Right, Yeah,
I do like say I think that like that element
of Sam is just like she's so disserviced by it,
because I do I do like her character.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
What else would we like to talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Well, I mean, so many places we could go. I
guess this was I didn't know very much about this movie.
I didn't know that. And I think in a teen
movie in twenty twelve, having out gay characters that are
very beloved and also like main characters was pretty unique

(01:07:25):
at the time, if I'm remembering twenty twelve correctly, And
I'm curious of how everyone feels it was handled. It's
tricky because it's like you have to put on your
twenty twelve goggles and also your early nineties goggles, because
there is like inherent I don't know. It felt kind
of like a two hander, where on one hand, parts

(01:07:45):
of like Patrick's experience is defined by trauma and rejection
of like he is in love with Brad, but they
have to keep it secret, partially for stigma and shame,
but also for Brad's physical safety from his very religious parents.
And that's a story that we've certainly seen over the

(01:08:07):
years and is unfortunately like reflected in so much of
history and so but a deeply like traumatic queer love story.
But I also feel like Stephen Schabowski did give Patrick
a lot of room to just like be a person
too and like experienced joy and like that's not the

(01:08:27):
only thing that we know about Patrick. It's a very
like and I think that is like also true for
Charlie and how his experience being sexually abused as a child.
You can see that it clearly influences his life and

(01:08:47):
makes it much more difficult, but it doesn't define his life.
And I feel like that is something that you don't
really I'm not saying it's perfectly done, but I appreciated
the attempts because I feel like so often that is like, well,
this is the trauma that defines my entire life and
my story outside of this, like who cares?

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
And well, these are male characters, so there does.

Speaker 8 (01:09:12):
Not Sam trauma get that same Like yeah, exactly, Yeah,
because Sam is defined by her like being like they
truly do make it sound like and this is like callous,
but they make it sound like she's like cured of
being a slut and that's why she gets to go
to college.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Yeah, shut the fuck up, Like what.

Speaker 6 (01:09:32):
Yeah, A lot of like a lot of Stevens Chabaski's
dialogue during the commentary was like like.

Speaker 5 (01:09:37):
For Patrick, he was like, my number one rule for
Patrick is like don't make him a victim, and then
like we're talking about Sam, it's like, oh, this redemptive
art was just so powerful for me, and it's like,
what the fuck.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Ridiculous, which which sucks because I generally liked the caretaken
so that Patrick was not framed as like a tragic
victim and does like this is a horrible eperience and
we see that his character moves on, and that's really important.
But also it's like it's so clear who Steven Cheboski's
comfortable extending that too and who he's not.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:10:13):
I also question, because the book was written in the nineties,
like if if Stephen Schebaski had that terminology at the time,
would he have articulated Charlie is as queer because like
in the book he talks about how like, oh, my
dad's excited that I'm dating Mary Elizabeth because he got
concerned that I kept kissing this boy.

Speaker 5 (01:10:33):
In the neighborhood.

Speaker 6 (01:10:34):
Oh wow, right, And the part where Patrick initially kisses
Charlie without his consent, then Charlie goes like, no, really,
it's it's okay, and they and Patrick and Charlie spent
a lot of time kissing in the car.

Speaker 5 (01:10:47):
Night after night.

Speaker 6 (01:10:48):
But Sam does interrogate Charlie about this later because Sam's
concern was that I don't think you were being a
good friend to Patrick because you let him talk about
his sorrows and you sat there and said nothing, and
you let him kiss you and you did nothing, and
you're not establishing your your own boundaries as a friend.
You can And then which goes back to the movie

(01:11:09):
where she's like, you can't just sit back and be
quiet and call that love.

Speaker 5 (01:11:12):
That's not how this works.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Right, That's so interesting. It's like, I gotta read this
damn book because I like, because I did, I another
like twenty twelvey thing where I was like, oh, okay,
this movie like it is inclusive of queer people, unlike
most teen movies were at this time. But also you're like, oh,

(01:11:35):
this movie subscribes to there are two kinds of people.
They're gay or they're straight. But it sounds like the
book may have been more inclusive than that, but the
movie didn't, or I feel like that. I don't know,
at least movie Charlie to me, I thought was coded
like pretty straight.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
Right right right, whereas in the book maybe he's by
or somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum, figuring it out,
or he's too much of a wallflower to tell someone
he doesn't want.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
To kill them. I don't know identifies as wallflower, use
flower like think I think.

Speaker 6 (01:12:13):
The term he does use it, and the book is straight.
But still it's it's like it's like for me, it's like, is.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
He though, right, I mean, yeah, he's fourteen, he's yeah,
probably still figuring it out.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Right, right, And it's like not like fourteen year old
in the early nineties were using Oh in the book,
he's fifteen.

Speaker 5 (01:12:31):
He's fifteen.

Speaker 6 (01:12:32):
He had to stay back and great because he had
to be hospitalized. He's fifteen, he's fifteen.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
Okay, okay, why don't they just do that in the movie?

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Well, I mean not that it makes that much of
a difference, but it's like everyone is twenty two, which
like you might as well say they're older than four,
because I don't know. For some reason, like fourteen for
me is like okay, so like a child, and I'm
looking at Percy Jackson and it's like, but that's a man.

(01:12:58):
Remember the Percy Jackson moved. For some reason, I did
see those even though I think it was technically too
old to see them, but I'm like, wow, I'm gonna
see Percy Jackson the Lightning.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
Pief Should we cover them?

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
They kind of sucked to be honest, but like, yeah,
I don't know. I also don't really know what happened
to Logan Lerman. Every time I hear his name, I'm like,
sounds like sure, that's a guy, Like I'll buy it.

Speaker 5 (01:13:21):
He's in a show now I'm forgetting the name of it.

Speaker 6 (01:13:24):
And I feel bad because I have a friend and
a fellow presbit who wrote a beautiful poem about him,
and oh yeah, and like the importance of like Jewish
representation and like television and stuff, and like.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Oh, that's cool. I didn't know he's Jewish.

Speaker 4 (01:13:37):
Yeah, I was just like it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
There's so many people who are currently famous. There's just
like so many white millennial actors in this damn movie.
There's like one one shot of Julia Garner and you're like, whoa,
she's so famous now. But they're like they mention her
in passing where they're like, oh, is she the friend
Susan Susan, Yes, she was on that in Anna show.

(01:14:01):
She played Anna Delvi. I don't know that it's an
iconically bad Shonda Rhyme show. Angelia Garner plays a scammer
and with this horrible accent, and she's always like why
are you poor? And you're like like, it's just okay, Well,
viewers have invented Okay, you're looking at me like I
have six heads. But listeners of this show right now

(01:14:22):
do know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
Okay, I believe you. I believe you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Shondaland will show up to the back to the cast,
so help me.

Speaker 3 (01:14:30):
I know they will. So to go back to just
the movie's approach to queerness, The narrative between Like the
book and the movie was perhaps a little ahead of
its time in its willingness to have a queer character
and fully characterize them, and even though something traumatic happens

(01:14:55):
to them, they are not defined by their trauma, and
they are given an ending that is like positive and
like it seems as though Patrick has a bright future.

Speaker 6 (01:15:06):
He turned the camera to him when Charlie talks about
like and everyone's gonna become mothers and fathers, and it's like, yeah,
queer people can be parents too, And it's.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Like brave twenty twelve, what a time, right, But yeah,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
I guess it's like, like we said, like a stepping
stone kind of situation where there's certainly better queer representation now,
but you know, for the time, it was maybe a
bit ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Yeah, above above average, and then I think we should
definitely talk about it feels kind of callous to call
it a reveal, but that is kind of how it's
presented in the story, especially if you're me and you
really don't know what happens in the movie The Perks
of Being a Wallflower, where you find out at the

(01:16:03):
very end of the movie. It's so weird because it
does feel like the movie's about to end, and then
you're like, wait, there's twenty minutes what's going on where
you find out the aunt who passed away when Charlie
is very young had been sexually abusing him up until
her death, and that I think it's implied and I'm
curious how it's like talked about in the commentary and

(01:16:26):
in the book, that this was a repressed memory that
through his experiences in this year, and also like in
that moment with Sam where she touches his leg, that
it resurfaces and he understandably goes to a very dark
place and has to be hospitalized. I yeah, I'm curious

(01:16:49):
of how that was discussed on the commentary.

Speaker 6 (01:16:53):
Yeah, in the commentary, the original writing of the script
was having their reveal take place like right after Sam
first touches Charlie's leg, and then some entertainment had said
like push that a little bit farther. We want we
don't want this moment for Charlie to be interrupted or

(01:17:15):
like something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Interesting. Yeah, that's so. And it's like I don't really
know how to feel about it, Like there is an
element of that like creative choice of like making it
a reveal to be like, hmmm, why is this a twist?
And at the end of the movie it's.

Speaker 5 (01:17:34):
Similarly similarly comes up in the book Too Real.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
It's like I don't know. I guess it's like if
I'm I genuinely don't know how I feel about it,
because in one way, it's like you see Charlie as
you know, I feel like it's so I don't know,
Like even especially having like gone through the whole process
of making Walita podcast and writing and researching that topic
so intensely.

Speaker 6 (01:17:56):
Another great podcast of yours two. Oh my god, so good,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
Yeah, this is the plug section of the fun and
being very lucky to have not experienced that myself. Like,
I don't know, I think it can be seen as
a good thing that we get to know Charlie's so
thoroughly outside of that context, because survivors of that kind
of abuse. Again, it's just like, oh, this is the
defining event of my life, or that's how it's very

(01:18:24):
often framed. But then it's just like, it does feel
so bizarre to have it be like the twist. But
I don't know, I don't know what is the How
did everyone feel about that? I just I it was
it was a choice. It was a choice that was made,
and I don't know. It just made me think, I
don't know how to feel about it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
I'm similarly uncertain, And I think it could be helpful
for boys, teenage boys, young men, or any kind of
mask presenting person who has experienced this type of abuse,
because so often when we think about sexual abuse, it's

(01:19:03):
in reference to women in fems, and it rarely gets
explored in media unless you're talking about like spotlight or something.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
And it's also very rare in media that an adult
woman is portrayed as the perpetrator.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
Right, because it does happen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
I've got some not I sounded way too chipper. I
was like, I have some stats. They're fucking horrible, but
I do have them. This is I found. A piece
that appears in the Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assaults is
written in twenty fourteen by Megan McCluskey that talks about

(01:19:51):
the portrayal of csa survivor in Perks of Being a Wallflower.
I believe she is talking about the book here, but
I just wanted to sort of share this writer feels
like it was a pretty solid portrayal of a young
person processing that experience. So I have two chunks quote.

(01:20:14):
Charlie concludes in his final letters in Perks that he
was sexually abused in early childhood by his aunt, Helen,
who is now deceased. Jabowski's decision to feature a male
victim of sexual violence along with a female perpetrator erodes
the persistent female victim slash male offender paradigm in actuality.
It is likely that more than sixteen percent of men
have survived sexual abuse by the age of eighteen, and

(01:20:35):
while the majority of these young victims were assaulted by
adult men. The existence of sexually abusive adult women is
receiving increased attention. The fact that Charlie's abuse was committed
by a trusted and beloved family member is also consistent
with reality. More than ninety percent of juvenile sexual abuse
victims know their perpetrators. Charlie's fondness for Aunt Helen and

(01:20:55):
his prolonged grief over her accidental death is a poignant
representation of the convoluted amo of many survivors of sexual
assault experience toward those who abuse them. She goes on
to discuss and I won't get too into it because
it's a longer passage, but essentially says that she feels

(01:21:15):
that Chaboski does a pretty solid job of portraying how
that often bears out in a survivor's young life, and
how that very likely has just like how PTSD is
processed in teenagers, and how that very likely connects to
the reason Charlie is so shy and connected to panic attacks,

(01:21:37):
and how the death of his close friend could have
exacerbated that. And I don't know, it was really interesting
to read. I will we can link it in the
episode as well, But that was something that I didn't see.
I'm curious how. I mean, I can't speak to this experience,

(01:21:57):
but it seems like it was generally well regarded and
like how Charlie's character is treated and portrayed.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
Yeah, and again, it could be helpful for someone watching
this who has experienced that and you know, allowed them
to feel especially because this story is told from the
point of view of the survivor of abuse, where when
it is brought up in media a lot of times,
it's not their story. It's not the survivor's story. It's

(01:22:28):
another character who were not getting, you know, an inside
look into their life and their feelings and their experiences.
So yeah, I think it could easily be helpful. I
think it could also easily be triggering for people. You know,
it's but as far as how it's.

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
Handled, definitely a movie you should go and with your
eyes open.

Speaker 3 (01:22:53):
Yeah, But as far as how it's handled, nothing really
struck me as something to really be concerned about from
a representation point of view.

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
But I mean, I think that that does circle back
to why does Sam not receive this same grace and treatment? Yeah,
I mean it's I think that the way it's handled
in Charlie's character is I mean, just based on other
ways I've seen this story portrayed like pretty well done,

(01:23:28):
especially for its time. And I also like that they
took the moment. I don't know if this happens in
the book, but they took the moment to show that
he was believed by his family and supported, because that's,
you know, like another element that can often be re
traumatizing if the people in your life do not believe you.
So I like the for sure that the way this
story bears out, he is believed and then gets you know,

(01:23:50):
the the ending that's very like corny and cathartic and sweet,
and you know, maybe two seconds after the camera shots off,
he gets decay apitated within the tunnel. We don't really know.
Hopefully it's not what happens, and he goes on to
have a great high school experience. That's what I want
from him, but I can't. I like, literally, that's there's

(01:24:15):
a lot of difficult scenes in this movie, but watching
these kids go through that damn tunnel is so stressful
for me.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
Actually, honestly, having seen Hereditary, I assume that that's going
to happen now for any character who just sticks their
head out of a window.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
So say what you will about aria Aster, but he
really does make you think about heads popping off all
the time.

Speaker 3 (01:24:36):
He really sears an image into your brain that you
will never forget or recover from.

Speaker 1 (01:24:41):
What a legacy. But anyways, yeah, just to sort of
close that loop. As well done as I thought Charlie's
story was handled in that regard and how thoughtfully it was.
Again with Sam it's just mentioned and she still needs this.
It's just like I just want to sit inside of

(01:25:03):
Stephen Schabbassi's brain for a second to be like, why
why is it so different between these two characters.

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):
I mean, yeah, that extends to basically all the female
characters in the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:25:17):
Because his sister as well, his sister and Mary Elizabeth
and Mary Elizabeth's friend who is sometimes in the movie.

Speaker 6 (01:25:24):
Yeah, speaking of Charlie's sister, Yes, there is a deleted
scene that is from the book where Candace, Charlie's sister
is pregnant and she needs Charlie's help when it comes
to her getting an abortion, and it's a time where
she and Charlie are connecting more.

Speaker 5 (01:25:46):
And Stephen Schabaski has said that.

Speaker 6 (01:25:50):
He ended up deleting it because he said it was
too emotionally intense and wanted to prevent emotional fittigue.

Speaker 5 (01:26:01):
Okay, and I.

Speaker 6 (01:26:02):
Have feelings about that, especially when it comes to young
people who could have really benefited from seeing that. And
also part of me is like, are you doing that
so that you can prevent a rated R warning? Because
I don't think that's fair either.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
Interesting, right, because I mean abortion has always been such
an issue that Hollywood has really avoided wanting to put
on screen until like extremely recently.

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
Yeah, it's that's so and does that sorry, does that
happen in the book?

Speaker 5 (01:26:33):
It does?

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
It? Does? That's so? Ugh? Yeah, because I totally agree,
especially in twenty twelve. It's like there are so many
and when the audience of this movie is obviously I
guess teenagers, but I would actually guess closer to middle schoolers.
I feel like stories about high schoolers are more often
consumed by people a little bit younger who are looking
forward to high school. And yeah, like, especially if it

(01:26:55):
was well handled, which I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:26:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
It's like I don't necessarily trust him as a director
to sure because maybe it would have just been a
scene where Nina do Breav would have been like, I'm
so ashamed, and then Charlie is like it's okay, I
forgive you, and you're like.

Speaker 6 (01:27:09):
Yeah, it wasn't like that, but like what what what
I do? What I do take issue with is like
Steven Tabaski's continuously calling Nina de Brev an unsung hero,
and how like during the actors commentary in this scene
where she first gets hit by her boyfriend, some some
of uh as Rebeller is as cracking a joke as

(01:27:34):
a way to like suage the awkwardness of having to
watch her get heart by saying by saying like, oh,
Nina de brev could beat all our asses.

Speaker 5 (01:27:41):
Or whatever, and it's like, the fuck, show.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
Me a clip that's aged worse of churs.

Speaker 6 (01:27:49):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Yeah, that was I I that was another sort of
small element of this story that I wasn't prepared for.
That Again, I just I feel like it is a
relevant topic of discussion and something that obviously happens all
the time and happens to young people all the time,

(01:28:11):
and the movie didn't really give it the space it
needed to be discussed, because you see, yeah, and I
don't think that that was like intentionally exploitative. But I
just I don't like that they showed the worst of
it and showed us physical abuse and then did not
give her character any really on screen time to process it. Right.

(01:28:34):
I thought it was an interesting start to having that
conversation when she basically tries to justify the abuse to
her brother, Like I know that's the very common part
of an experience like that, Like I've I've been the
person saying that to a loved one before, and like

(01:28:54):
I think that that's an important But then that's sort
of that's it the end of it. You just find
out at the end, like, oh, she broke up with him,
which great, glad, But the fact that you only you
see abuse, you see her justifying the abuse, and then
any journey that she has takes place off screen.

Speaker 3 (01:29:14):
Which I'm realizing now that all of the female characters,
or at least like the teens, are defined by the
boys they like or who they're dating, because you've got
you know, the sister, she's in this abusive relationship, and
then there's a beat where it's like she decided to

(01:29:34):
break up with him and she went with her friends
to prom but then the next the final beat of
her like barely a story arc is she met a
guy at her summer job and she's dating him now
and he's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
Yes, the same with Mary Elizabeth of like, well, she
started dating this other guy, so she's also I mean, honestly,
I was kind of glad that Mary Elizabeth started dating
someone else because I was like, I don't know whether
they're still together.

Speaker 5 (01:30:01):
She really advocated for.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
Wow, She's like I want a bad haircut, I want
my boyfriend in the movie It's good for you May Whitman, Sure,
why not?

Speaker 3 (01:30:10):
But like she didn't need to get with someone else, Like, no.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
She didn't. She got into Harvard, Like she's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:30:17):
Right, Yeah, she's gonna start a romance two seconds before
she leaves for school.

Speaker 1 (01:30:22):
That's silly, right, And and that like Sam, I think
we see this a lot, like Sam is probably not
with Charlie forever, but I feel like her ending up
with Charlie to some extent is this simp like a
sign that like she's left her old ways in the
past and this relationship is symbolic that like she's gonna

(01:30:46):
be okay. And you're like, she's a nice or she
could just be okay, like or she could just be okay, yeah,
but especially with his sister. Who's I keep I kept
just being like Nina do Brev Candice, Yes, God this
Maybe want to revisit Nina Dobrev's arcs in De Grassi,
which is how the world met her. She dated Spinner,

(01:31:09):
she's a teen mom. She's kind of a legend on
the show De Grassy. Heads will know?

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
Is this why I don't know her because I've never
seen De Grassy.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
Sorry, you don't watch enough trashy TV, and that's something
that I've wanted to talk to you about. She's kind
of a legend of Degrassi. Is not trashy TV except
sometimes except when it is, except what it really is,
and that you're just like these Canadians need to relax.

Speaker 3 (01:31:33):
This is a part of my shameful history. But I'm
going to turn things around and it's all my fault.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
Charlie. I forgive you for your negligent ways. And then
she's on a show that's just straight up trash. But
I have seen a lot of and Princess Weeks has
made some amazing videos about the Vampire Diaries, which is
the CW capitalizing on Twilight's popularity, but it was on
for like fifty years, and they were like playing twenty

(01:32:02):
two year old, but they were like forty It was wild.
What was going on on that damn show? Anyways, that's
where Nina dolbro because all that to say, I really
like that actor, but as far as her arc goes,
I really get pissed off when a filmmaker is comfortable

(01:32:23):
showing a woman being abused and then does not make
the space for her to have a character arc, Like
if you don't have space for her in the movie,
don't show her getting hit. It just feels exploitative a
little bit, even if it wasn't intended that way. I
feel like it. Yeah, it pisses me off. Yes, I agree.

Speaker 6 (01:32:41):
In the book, she's she's about to get an abortion,
and at the time when she tells the boyfriend that
she's pregnant, he's like, hot, not mine. And then she
proceeds to get the abortion, connects with Charlie. She tells
the boyfriend, tell them like, like, you know what it was,
it was a false alarm.

Speaker 5 (01:32:58):
Don't worry about it. And he's like, oh, okay, great,
and she's like, but I'm breaking up with you.

Speaker 6 (01:33:02):
And then like there's a description of her reading like
self esteem books but then stopping to read the self
esteem books because she starts dating a guy a year
younger than her. So I'm not saying the book is
perfect by means, but it.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Seems to give her a little bit more characterization.

Speaker 1 (01:33:18):
Yeah right, I mean it sounds like it definitely does more.
And I know that like when you're adapting, like stuff
has to get cut down and stuff like that. But
it's like, Okay, if you didn't have the space for
her to be a bigger character, then don't show her
getting abused if like yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:34):
And it's just it's very telling who this writer director
wants to give space too, because the most characterized people
in this movie are the boys. Like the boys we
don't know an awful lot. I think the like Mary
Elizabeth likes Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):
Which good for her, she's right to film that way, But.

Speaker 3 (01:33:58):
Like, what else do we know about any of the
girls except for like their taste in music?

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
Also, like how is this Mary Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror?
But she's still somehow cast in a minor role. I
was like, can we let like why can't may women
be the main person? Like the Hollywood is allergic to
letting her be the main person. Even she's like, this
is my production and I'm gonna play the maid.

Speaker 3 (01:34:21):
I'm like why, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
Anyways, Yeah, I wanted to shout out Mary Elizabeth as
I don't know, I felt and always I was almost
a little bit embarrassed about. I was like, oh, I
felt kind of represented by her at times where it's
just like a young woman doing the most she doesn't
know how works, right, this is like this like just

(01:34:43):
desperately tried to be like this, maybe this maybe I'm
this person, or maybe I'm this person. She's like, I'm
vegan person. No, I'm a rocky horror person. No, I'm
book person. Like just like I get, like, I don't know.
I was like she's a little frustrating at times and
up her own ass, but I just I feel like
it's you don't see characters like that a lot who

(01:35:05):
are like also loved by their friends and like that
you know things end up going well for her. And
also just like that moment of like oof, just like
he this movie does like humiliating moments pretty well in
a way that like kind of triggered my enterteen that
scene where oh where he I mean, there's a lot
going on in that scene where he's surprised, kisses Sam

(01:35:28):
and humiliates his girlfriend, who is a lot but certainly
did not deserve that, right. You know, I wouldn't talk
to him for two weeks either.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
Yeah, Well, is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?

Speaker 5 (01:35:46):
Yes? The character Michael, the friend who dies by suicide.

Speaker 6 (01:35:52):
Yes, in the In the movie, he's only brought up
super briefly while Charlie is stoned. And Stephen Schabowski had said,
like in books, you can do multiple ghosts. In a movie,
you only get one ghost, and I want it, And
he said, I want that one ghost to be Aunt Helen.
I don't want two ghosts. And then he had said,

(01:36:12):
in the book, you open with like Charlie and a
bunch of other kids grieving Michael's suicide before high school starts.
And then he says, oh, I didn't want this to
be a suicide movie and not.

Speaker 5 (01:36:25):
Wanting that to be the tone of the movie.

Speaker 6 (01:36:27):
And I'm just over here, like, but but it is
a suicide movie and that is okay, Like you don't
have to frame its right exactly, so you don't have
to frame it as like that. And again going back
to Tanuda Dobbs deleted scene, it's like what do you
what do you mean emotionally intense? And also this this
doesn't help that he has an extensive, like screenwriting background

(01:36:50):
either where he's trained by a bunch of other.

Speaker 5 (01:36:52):
White CIS dudes, and and.

Speaker 6 (01:36:54):
So probably the mindset of like, oh, emotions equate bad
writing sort of thing, which I disagree with, and how
this is a topic that shows up in a lot
of his work, like he I understand that there are
a lot of there's a lot of discourse about rent,
but uh, he he adapted that screenplay and he did
include the suicide that was in the original Broadway production.

Speaker 5 (01:37:17):
But then the director is like, we're gonna cut it.

Speaker 6 (01:37:19):
And then you direct and write projects that that also
contained content about suicide. It's like that is okay, that
that's a topic that's close to you, Like, don't frame
it in a way that that you're like, oh, you know,
I didn't want it to be that movie and it's
and it's like no, like there are folks who need
that content, Like there's this there's this movie that Hugh

(01:37:40):
Jackman is in that's based off of a play called
The Sun, and that got bad reviews because they're all like, oh,
it's a melancholy and whatnot, and it's like, no, this
is actually a very real portrayal of how suicidal ideation happens,
and also like it's able to portray it in a
way where it's like, no, you don't need like a Typically,
what a lot of films do is like they give

(01:38:02):
a reason for why someone is having mental health issues.
And what I like about The Sun is how this
character explicitly says like I don't need a reason. I
just don't want to be alive, and it's uh right.
And then that movie ends up getting bad reviews because
they're like, oh, too much emotion.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
That's I didn't even know that. I was like, I would,
I'll watch that movie like.

Speaker 5 (01:38:25):
It's a it's a sad ending. I will say that
is okay, so be prepared for that. Watch it with
a friend.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
But that's so that's so wild though that it feels
like and I do wonder, Yeah, what kind of like
producer pressures there are to be like, oh, well, this
is like this is too much for a teenage audience,
versus like I also this says like what is considered
too much and not too much quote unquote, Like there's
such nebulous terms, and I feel like are so defined

(01:38:52):
by like the money people versus like what young audiences
would actually benefit from, because I'm sure that that would
be And but then also you're just like, well, this
is also the man that goes on to adapt Dear
Evan Hanson, So you know, how do we how do
we establish trust and what do we do?

Speaker 6 (01:39:14):
It's confusing and that ended up getting bad reviews and
I'm over here like.

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
Right, well, I guess he didn't write that one. He
directed it. It's so like he helped.

Speaker 5 (01:39:26):
He helped with some of the writing. He and a
few others helped with some of the writing.

Speaker 6 (01:39:30):
But yeah, the original like Broadway person who wrote it
is the main writer of it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:35):
Got It, Got It.

Speaker 1 (01:39:36):
I was like, wait, I don't I don't need to
contribute to the dunking on Deer Evan Hanson. There's there's
a whole cottage industry around dunking on that movie.

Speaker 5 (01:39:44):
But so many theater people, so.

Speaker 1 (01:39:47):
Oh my god, it's like they've really angered the wrong
people this time. The last thing I wanted to say
was about Aunt Helen, where they didn't go deep into this.
I wonder if they in the book. I wasn't mad
about it, but I thought it was interesting that it
was mentioned because just based on what I know, it

(01:40:09):
did sort of seem to scan where Charlie makes a
reference to it sounds as if Helen may have been
abused as well, and yeah, and that he brings that
up in like almost as like a sort of defense
of her behavior was like, well, she was hurt, and

(01:40:31):
that is I mean, obviously there's no prescriptive way to
talk about this, but like that is something that frequently happens,
is that abusers have been abused themselves. And I was
glad they didn't harp on it. I didn't feel like
there was really a need to, but I thought that
it was It just felt pretty authentic that like if
Charlie knew that that would be something where that would

(01:40:53):
like come up for him when he was starting to
process that.

Speaker 6 (01:40:57):
In the book, they talk about how both aunt Helen
and Charlie's mom were physically abused by the by their father.

Speaker 5 (01:41:07):
Okay, but that but that Aunt.

Speaker 6 (01:41:09):
Helen was was was sexually abused by a friend of
the father So I did find it interesting that the
movie had decided like, oh, aunt Helen moved in because
of bad boyfriends, because in the book they're they're all like,
we don't know why Aunt Helen moved in, but she's
here now until she dies.

Speaker 3 (01:41:26):
Interesting, Okay, I have a question. There's a moment toward
the end where there's a flashback young Charlie is holding
I think his mom's hand to comfort her after the
death of Aunt Helen. I think it's his mom, but
I'm not.

Speaker 5 (01:41:45):
Sure Aunt Helen's hand.

Speaker 3 (01:41:48):
Oh it is so because like her risk kind of
turns over and you see scars from an apparent suicide
attempt on her wrist. So that was Aunt Helen. Yeah, Okay,
I wasn't sure what adult woman I was.

Speaker 1 (01:42:02):
Okay, yeah, because I wasn't sure either, And then I
also knew that it was already established in like, I mean,
very very different situation. But like when he's hooking up
with Mary Elizabeth and he's thinking about Sam that like
faces would sometimes swap when he was like in his
So I wasn't. I just wasn't sure. Okay, that's got

(01:42:22):
good to know. And again it's like I I do
I wasn't bothered that the movie didn't harp on that,
but that it was acknowledged.

Speaker 3 (01:42:33):
The last thing I want to say is Sam's line
where she says, I'm not a bulliemic, I'm a bulee
mist Oh god, I love bulimia. I'm like, we're just
like Stephen Schabowski, what you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:49):
Will pay for your crimes? Yeah, weird ass nineties dialogue.

Speaker 6 (01:42:53):
He wrote a line and then apparently Emma Watson asra
Miller decided to do improv on that line, and that's
what ended up being bood final take.

Speaker 3 (01:43:01):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
It did sound very like sorry but like dumb ass
teenager like banter, but in a way that it was like,
did we need that? Wasn't necessarily don't wrote this? Yeah, yeah,
don't write You're like, but but a forty five year
old man wrote this down, so huh. Interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:43:21):
The two adult actors were like, this is fine.

Speaker 1 (01:43:23):
Yeah, the two twenty two year olds are like, let's
riff on this, and you're like, please don't or not
or not anyways, good job. Percy Jackson liked you in
a movie. I thought I thought he was good like
I enjoyed logan Lehrman's performance, and I enjoyed his performance

(01:43:44):
as Percy Jackson, so so there.

Speaker 4 (01:43:47):
Brave a few to admit, absolutely, But but this is
actually a great question.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

Speaker 3 (01:43:58):
Actually? Does it? I don't because, yeah, I didn't even
pay attention.

Speaker 5 (01:44:01):
Because it's like, I'm not sure, because I'm not sure.

Speaker 6 (01:44:04):
I felt the same way if it passes because of
like the dialogue between Mary, Elizabeth and Alice.

Speaker 5 (01:44:10):
But at the same time, it's it's like it's only like.

Speaker 9 (01:44:13):
It's very quick pieces of yes, pieces of dialogue between
the two of them, or or does it pass when
Charlie's mom and sister are talking about like preparing to
shop for college, move and stuff, So I'm over here
like like does it pass the bare minimum or does
it pass this podcasts requirements for passing, and like it's.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34):
I don't know. For the first time in a long time,
I actually really thought about the Bechdel test when watching
this movie, because there's actually a pretty, uh, pretty robust
discourse around whether this movie does or does not pass
the Bechdel test, which usually in my mind just says
it doesn't. Uh if it does by our standards, it

(01:44:55):
does not by the original standards of the Bechtel test.
It does, but as we say, like it should be
an impactful line of dialect and not something throwaway. There
is a throwaway line that I just thought was funny.
There's just like passing conversation you hear between Mary Elizabeth
and Alice, so we know their names, and it's when

(01:45:17):
Charlie insults Mary Elizabeth's hair and Alice ses to Mary
Elizabeth it's kind of true, and Mary Elizabeth says, shut
shut up. So I would say, maybe that's a no
for us. And then there's another thing where there's like
a brief exchange between Mary Elizabeth and Charlie's mom, but
we don't know what Charlie's mom's name is, so I

(01:45:38):
would say that's a no. And also that exchange doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (01:45:43):
Mary Elizabeth and Alice also talk about blue jeans where
one of them gives them as a gift to the
other person. Oh ha ha, you got me jeans.

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
Because I just counted that as like a group setting scene.

Speaker 3 (01:45:55):
Yeah right, I don't know. The bottom line is that
you would think the girls would talk to each other more,
But the creative voice behind this story doesn't really have
any interest in that.

Speaker 1 (01:46:11):
Yeah, I'm gonna say it's a gnarry that this does
not pass our version of the vexel test.

Speaker 3 (01:46:18):
Yeah, that's fine with me. But what about that nipple
scale of ours? A scale where.

Speaker 1 (01:46:25):
What about a perfect metric that's never been wrong never ever?

Speaker 3 (01:46:30):
We rate the movie on a scale of zero to
five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional
feminist lens. I'm gonna do the Bechdel cast cheat code
and split down the middle two point five because while
it was either like ahead of its time or just

(01:46:50):
sort of like representing certain things that a lot of
media was hesitant to explore at this time and even
to some extent now still, but you know, things like
suicidal ideation and mental health issues among teenagers, openly queer

(01:47:14):
characters who don't have a completely tragic storyline and who
are pretty fully characterized, things like that. But then on
the other hand, it's so painfully white, and the excuse
that like, oh but this was an affluent suburb. No,

(01:47:37):
I don't buy it, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:47:39):
Who's putting Like who is like forcing you to set
your story there exactly? Like people in every across class
boundaries have these problems exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:47:52):
So there being not a single person of color who
speaks in the movie is glaring. The approach to the
Sam character and her like quote unquote torrid past.

Speaker 1 (01:48:07):
Is so dramatic. I'm like, leave her hor.

Speaker 3 (01:48:10):
Handled, like really fumbled the way that's handled. And again,
just the lack of interest of fully characterizing the girls
in this story in general, and they're not being space
made to just give them more interests, define them by

(01:48:32):
things besides either their trauma or the boys they're dating.
Things like that. It is also pretty claring. So I
think I'll stick with two and a half. And uh,
I'll give one nipple to the one black kid you
see walking past the screen at school.

Speaker 5 (01:48:49):
Also also two black people.

Speaker 6 (01:48:51):
Then okay, there's there's a black doctor who doesn't speak,
and there's a black student who doesn't speak.

Speaker 5 (01:48:55):
That's wild.

Speaker 3 (01:48:56):
I think I saw a black student, but maybe it's
just wishful thinking. I'm not sure. And I'll give I'll
give one nipple to May Whitman because I like her
as an actor. And I'll give my half nipple to
sister Candace and and her going to prom stag with

(01:49:22):
her friends.

Speaker 1 (01:49:23):
Oh my god, I am justice for Candace movie Candace
at least. Yes, Yeah, I'm gonna I'll split down the
middle too. I think that this is a very sincere
movie with its heart mostly in the right place. But
I think and like, honestly, I didn't feel this as

(01:49:44):
strongly entering this conversation. This has been like a really
really clarifying, helpful conversation because you're both just so damn smart,
wow and beautiful and cool. There were killing it. This
zoom chat is electrics.

Speaker 3 (01:49:58):
All three of us are so good for us are infinite.

Speaker 1 (01:50:04):
Yes, in this moment we're infinite, and then our heads go.
But yeah, I think that it's like, as far as
the way this movie treats its protagonist, Charlie, I generally
think it's a thoughtful movie that like tries to do
right by its protagonist. You see, I mean, whitest movie

(01:50:25):
in the world takes place in the upper middle class
being generous. These houses are fucking ginormous. So in some
ways it's very much the status quo of a teen movie.
But you also see representation that you don't see in
most teen movies, where but the representation representation you get
is limited to white men or white boys. However, you know,

(01:50:50):
within that, I do feel like Patrick imperfect and being
played by Ezra Miller certainly does not help synth the
size this character. But I did like that Patrick was
not defined by his trauma and he gets a happy ending,
and that's I feel like when queerness is portrayed in

(01:51:11):
youth media, that's I mean, even if we're talking de grassy,
very often not the case.

Speaker 5 (01:51:16):
And he has good parents, he has good parents. It's
Brad who has terrible parents. He actually has good parents.

Speaker 1 (01:51:21):
Yeah do we meet his parents and.

Speaker 5 (01:51:24):
The book you hear how great they are, but like, yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:51:27):
It's I think it is referenced in the like in
very very much in Passing, but that his family like
is accepting and loving of him, which like all families
should be. But I guess like for the early nineties,
that is like a good thing to be explicit about,
and that you know that different queer characters in the
movie have different backgrounds and there's not one prescriptive experience,

(01:51:48):
and that there is I think pretty solid portrayal of
a young male CSA survivor, which is again to this day,
very very rare in media. And I mean we talked
through that piece, but just I think gets a lot
right in a way that is horrible, Like it is

(01:52:09):
such a horrific topic to explore, but it's very important.
And I think that the especially like that he is
able to begin processing it and that it's clear that
it's like not just something that it like it's an
ongoing process. I liked that it showed that, like he's
going to be going back to doctor Joan Cusack for

(01:52:29):
a long time to like continue processing this experience. And
again you see a very privileged perspective on processing CSA.
But it's so rare that I was happy that it
was there. However, docking it for not just the whiteness
of this movie and the class it's sort of set in,

(01:52:52):
but also how women do not really get the same
benefits of grace from the story and time and uh
from from the director and writer that the male characters do,
which just means you're not going to do great on
the Beattel cast. Sorry, so, uh, you know, justice for Sam.

(01:53:14):
I do want to read the book now and see
because I like Sam as a character and it's just
like you just don't get quite enough and the redemption
arc rhetoric, Oh, it just like made me turn on
him even harder when may when you like it confirmed that,
like and this is just how he feels, and you're like, okay,
well now I'm angry. Okay, so I'm going to go

(01:53:36):
two and a half on this. Uh you know, be
for effort. Good job, Percy Jackson. I'm giving all of
my nipples to doctor Joan Cusack. That's the real twist
of the movie. You're like the doctor's junk key.

Speaker 3 (01:53:54):
She's in the opening credits, but by the time she
shows up, you forget that shears and you're like, oh right,
he was here all along.

Speaker 1 (01:54:01):
Bigger jump scare than the decapitation scene and hereditary doctor
Joan Cusack so wild, especially because Kate Walsh It's more
shondaland talk What's wrong with Me? That Kate Walsh aka
Charlie's mom was famously on Gray's Anatomy and then Private Practice,
so I'm so used to seeing her be a doctor.

(01:54:23):
But she's not a doctor in this movie. Joan cu
Suck's a doctor and that's an exciting twist for their
early twenty tens. We're like, wait, that's missus doctor and
they're like, nope, she's missus mommy. And we don't know
what she does. We have no idea, we don't even
know what her name is. She's missus kilmechis. Yep, well
that's my that's my comflorating. Also justice for Candace, yes

(01:54:46):
ma yah what say you?

Speaker 5 (01:54:48):
Yeah? I okay.

Speaker 6 (01:54:51):
I thought about this question beforehand because it's it's a
great part of the podcast format.

Speaker 5 (01:54:56):
Thank you all very much. I will also give it
to and a half.

Speaker 6 (01:55:01):
And there's there's so much casual, abless language in this movie.
And and of course it's and I know that it's
the nineties and I know they came out in twenty twelve,
but also it's like casualable.

Speaker 1 (01:55:12):
Its way too casual, but you don't have to say it, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:55:16):
There's a lot of like homophobic slurs as well, but
they're always said by characters who we know are like
bad people, and it's tricky. Sorry I continue.

Speaker 6 (01:55:27):
I there's a deleted scene where where junk Kusk is
in the is in the opening because like the original
plan was to have the film open in the hospital
so that viewers could be like, oh, how did he
get there or whatever, and then they and they decided
to scrap it and My partner and I were watching
it and he was like, Okay, so it's nice.

Speaker 5 (01:55:46):
That it opens with the tunnel and then it closes
with the tunnel.

Speaker 1 (01:55:52):
Wow, I'm back.

Speaker 6 (01:55:58):
And again to say, like, I do really appreciate that
there's a portrayal of a young person take taking medication
and it's not framed in a way where it's like, oh,
I stopped taking the meds because like they don't know.
It doesn't portray who I am or whatever, because I
see that way too often in movies, and it's nice
that it's just it's just an objective thing.

Speaker 5 (01:56:18):
He just takes meds and it's fine.

Speaker 6 (01:56:21):
It is, and it is interesting listening to the commentary
how like there's a producer, Russ Smith, who had advocated
for making sure that scene remained in the movie, which
which I find interesting, especially in the year of Like
movie was made in twenty eleven, came out in twenty twelve,
so I like that it normalized that for its time.

(01:56:41):
I don't like how Junkies X character is like, oh,
don't worry about the money, and it's like and it's
like no, because it Steven SHABASKI like wanting to encourage
kid's like, oh no, don't worry about the money, just
go go to the hospital you need to, and.

Speaker 5 (01:56:53):
It's like no. And also again, when you.

Speaker 3 (01:56:55):
Think about work that for a lot of people.

Speaker 6 (01:56:57):
Right, when you think about kids of color and queer
kid and trans kids who have terrible experiences in there,
and like and how often psyche words are tied to
the prison industrial complex. This like is not a happy
ending for everybody, and it's and it's not accessible for everybody,
not everyone can afford therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:57:14):
It's very like Puppies and Rainbow's approach to like law
enforcement and American health care.

Speaker 6 (01:57:19):
Right, Yeah, and all the actors did did such a
did such a great job, even though they're yeah, two
actors being in it, it's like they're not great people.
And I do appreciate that everyone's humanity is held well
in place, because I know that in the commentary he
was like there are no villains he kept saying, which

(01:57:39):
I can appreciate, even when it comes to Helen's characters,
as you were saying, like they portray her humanity without
like excusing anything that.

Speaker 1 (01:57:49):
She did, right, which is like so hard to do.
But yeah, it's felt like one of the things that
they really succeeded at.

Speaker 6 (01:57:57):
Yeah, so I give it two and a half have nipples.
One nipple is to be shared between May Whitman and
Emma Watson.

Speaker 5 (01:58:06):
I was at South Advacy.

Speaker 6 (01:58:08):
For her, and Emma Watson overall does does a great
performance and it's great that like this is this was
her first movie where she gets to be a featured character.

Speaker 5 (01:58:20):
That was like, oh, that's like away from the Harry
Potter franchise. I thought it was very cool that at.

Speaker 6 (01:58:25):
The time, for like, while prepping for press for this movie,
Steve Schabaski was like, I don't know how to do this,
and Emma Watson was like, oh, I have years of experience.

Speaker 5 (01:58:34):
Let me tell you.

Speaker 3 (01:58:35):
She knows how to be in a movie where she
has two friends and both of them are both of them.

Speaker 1 (01:58:42):
That's true. This is Emma Watson canon and she ends
up with one of the boys. Interesting, I've seen this before.

Speaker 3 (01:58:50):
And to be clear, I know we know that Ezra
Miller is non binary. Yes, but the character of Patrick,
you know uses he him pronouns.

Speaker 1 (01:58:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we shuld have acknowledged that sooner.

Speaker 10 (01:59:01):
But anyway, So two and a half nipples, yeah, one nipples,
shared between May Whitman and Emma Watson, so Mary Elizabeth
and Sam one nipple that is shared between Nina doe
Brev and Kate Walsh because there are some delete scenes
with where Kate Walsh and Charlie interact as well that
I'm getting.

Speaker 6 (01:59:18):
Deleted, which which personally I believe what was for the best.
But still it's like Kate, Kate Walsh just deserves better
in general, like Private Practice got canceled, Bad Judge got canceled.
She she played, she played Hannah's mom and thirteen reasons why.

Speaker 1 (01:59:32):
I was like, like, she deserves so much better. Give
this woman a role that isn't corny, challenge, like not possible. Actually,
I haven't seen The Umbrella Academy maybe maybe really like
but and she's in Emily in Paris. She's in every
corny show of all time.

Speaker 5 (01:59:50):
And Ambrilla Academy. It's a good time. Like there are
definitely some cheesyellas, but I had a great time.

Speaker 6 (01:59:55):
Oh my god, I've written about that show a lot
last year. Anyways, And and the half nipple goes to
Paul Rudd for shooting for twos.

Speaker 1 (02:00:04):
Care because he's in this Yeah, he's in the same
room the whole time, and he's like, I need to
cut my hair. I need something.

Speaker 3 (02:00:11):
He's like, Charles Dickens, great girl, My god, so correct.

Speaker 1 (02:00:16):
The last thing I want to say to close out
the episode is about Pittsburgh, my new favorite American city.
I love Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh's the best. And I was in
Pittsburgh with Sarah Marshall and she and her friends are
showing me this old tourism video for Pittsburgh that was
so from like the late eighties, that was so defensive,

(02:00:37):
like it was the most self conscious promotion of a
city I've ever seen. But it's just like videos of
Pittsburgh and you're and like, I think it gets a
bad rap. But it opens with like all this all
this voiceover that's like, why would I want to go
to Pittsburgh.

Speaker 11 (02:00:53):
El Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh dip my car breakdown, and I was like,
geez it, Like cuts to a sweeping view of Pittsburgh
and this grand voice is like, Pittsburgh is actually a
great American city, and then it says.

Speaker 1 (02:01:10):
My favorite part says Pittsburgh has the most bridges in
any city in America or the world. And then there's
a long pause, and then he goes except for Venice,
and then it just goes to the next part. I
just have never seen a more lukewarm endorsement of their
own city. Shout out Pittsburgh. I'd like to give my

(02:01:32):
nipples to doctor John Cusack and Pittsburgh.

Speaker 3 (02:01:35):
Okay beautiful, Yeah, yes, wow, well, thank you.

Speaker 6 (02:01:41):
Thank you so much for having me. This was delightful.
This was incredible. Y'all are incredible.

Speaker 3 (02:01:47):
Come back for dear Evan Hansen.

Speaker 1 (02:01:49):
Oh my God, or something else or anything for something
else that's true.

Speaker 6 (02:01:55):
Yeah, I will listen. I will do so much with y'all. Yeah,
y'all are fantastic.

Speaker 3 (02:02:00):
Thank you so much. Where can people follow you on
social media? Check out your work, plug your book if.

Speaker 5 (02:02:07):
Yeah, like yes, I would love to.

Speaker 6 (02:02:10):
Folks can find me at Maya Williamspoet dot com, m
A y A Williamspoet dot com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter.
M dub sixteen E M M dubb one six I
have a poetry collection called Judith and Suicide. It is
about have responding to religious related trauma and suicidality. There
are different poems in the book that respond to different

(02:02:32):
Bible verses. Where a completed suicide and attempted suicide or
suicidal ideation takes place. The book also talks about how
often do we use carceral language when discussing our mental
health or suicidality, talks about healing from sexual violence, and
it also involves some poems about how suicide is portrayed

(02:02:53):
in film and TV. I write a lot of essays
about mental health and suicide and an entertainment media. You
can buy the game over books or at your local
independent bookstore and they will get it for you. And
and again wanting to do perks because again I was
It's a formative movie for me when it came to

(02:03:13):
representation of suicidality, especially when it comes to the scene
where Charlie goes like, he just tell me how to
make it stop.

Speaker 5 (02:03:20):
And that still.

Speaker 6 (02:03:21):
Resonating with me years later because it's like it doesn't stop.

Speaker 5 (02:03:24):
Brontal. This mental health shit is.

Speaker 6 (02:03:26):
Nonlinear and you go and learn and like. And also
the book does a better Joe talking about Charlie's Catholic
upbringing as he's trying to navigate it's trying to navigate
sex and mental health, and like Mary Elizabeth's journey with
Buddhism has talked a little bit more, even though not
as well as Charlie navigating Catholicism because men think so.

(02:03:53):
I do wish that the movie had gave more of
an opportunity to explore religion more. That wasn't just Mary
with not knowing how ash Wednesday.

Speaker 1 (02:04:01):
Works, right.

Speaker 3 (02:04:03):
I wasn't sure if she just thought he had a
smudge on his head or if she's just like religious anarchy.
Don't follow Mary.

Speaker 1 (02:04:12):
Oh my god, she's doing her best, but she's just
like so much.

Speaker 5 (02:04:20):
Welly, no, go ahead.

Speaker 6 (02:04:22):
I did a video podcast series with my friend Mia
Stewart Willis called Dying Laughing where we where we've talked
about the representation of suicidality and like television shows and
movies and music we have. We have two more episodes
coming out and then we're then we're closing it.

Speaker 5 (02:04:38):
But yeah, that's a project I'm very proud of.

Speaker 3 (02:04:40):
Awesome. Yes, check all of that out and you can
follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You
can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon, where we cover
two movies a month, or we do two episodes a month.

(02:05:01):
Because earlier this month we explained the WGA strike, and
we also have an episode on Newsy's coming out because
it's Junie Junior.

Speaker 1 (02:05:14):
Get it in your head, get it through your head.
It's really brilliant wordplay. It might not makes sense at first,
but no, it's great.

Speaker 3 (02:05:21):
But that can be found at patreon dot com slash
bectil cast five dollars a month those two bonus episodes
every month, plus access to the entire back catalog.

Speaker 1 (02:05:32):
It's true. You can also go to teapublic dot com
slash me Bechtel cast for all your merchandising needs. And
with that, my friends, let's get into the truck and
to wait Wait waits Hereditary.

Speaker 3 (02:05:46):
To Infinity and beyond.

Speaker 1 (02:05:50):
That's definitely what Percy Jackson said in the movie Bye
Okay Bye

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

The Bechdel Cast News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Perks of Being a Wallflower with Maya Williams