AI Drip, Hooked On Screens 03.28.23

In episode 1450, Miles and guest co-host, Pallavi Gunalan, are joined by author of Unwired: Gaining Control Over Addictive Technologies, Professor Gaia Bernstein, to discuss… The Pope’s Puffy Jacket Was An AI Fake Sadly, Apple Also Ignoring The Total Lack of Enthusiasm for VIRTUAL REALITY, UNWIRED and more!

1. The Pope’s Puffy Jacket Was An AI Fake Sadly
2. The swagged-out pope is an AI fake — and an early glimpse of a new reality
3. Apple Also Ignoring The Total Lack of Enthusiasm for VIRTUAL REALITY

LISTEN: Grateful by El Michels Affair & Black Thought

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season two eighty one,
Episode two of The Daily Site Geist. This is still
a production the iHeartRadio. It's still a podcast where we
still take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday,
March twenty eight, twenty twenty three. I feel like Jack
wasn't really telling you what national day is because sometimes

(00:21):
it doesn't matter. But I'll just tell you what it is.
It's National Black forest Cake Day, National Weed Appreciation Day,
not cannabis, but just the weeds that grow in your yards.
American Diabetes Association Alert Day, and National Triglycerides Day Wow.
And something on a Stick Day for those of you
that indulge with things on sticks like marshmallows or carrots
or whatever, what have you. My name is Miles Gray

(00:43):
aka the Heartbroup Heartbroken Brewing as I watched UCLA crash
out of Gonzaga on Thursday. But I am back, and
I am still Hideo NoHo, and I am thrilled to
be joined by my college today. A hilarious comedian, someone
who's doing good whenever they possibly can, and a wonderful host.
Uh oh my god, forgive me. What's the stand up

(01:05):
show again. I've been on leave too long. I'll introduce you. First.
It's plain thank you. First of all, that just reminds
me that my tred list rides are high. And second,
all carrots on a stick, bro, have more fun. What
are you doing is a stick? Oh wow? So you

(01:26):
would okay, stick, if you're going to improve upon the form,
you would put something upon the carrot, upon the carrot.
That's what I'm saying. Okay, but engineer mine, you know
what I mean? Yes? Yes, what was a stand up
show again? So I have a city council. It's a podcast.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but I've been real lazy
about it. So nobody get mad at me. I get it,

(01:49):
I get it, I get it. Play we have we
got one of those guests that come on. We're like, oh,
we got someone smart, we got someone that's an expert,
someone who I can ask questions to, like white technology,
making me sad, because that's exactly what we're going to
be doing today. We have to introduce our guests. She
is the Technology, Privacy and Policy Professor of Law Code,

(02:10):
director of the Institute for Privacy Protection, and co director
of the Gibbons Institute of Law. Science and Technology at
Seton Hall University and the author of the book Unwired
Gaining Control over Addictive Technologies. Please welcome, Guya Burnsday guy, welcome,

(02:30):
Thank you, thank you for having me. Oh, thank you
for blessing us on this second rate podcast with your
first rate acumen. But yes, we really appreciate you stopping by.
I like that she comes with her own AKA. She
had so many titles, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
like those are legit over here. I'm saying, like I'm
the lord of lancershim Boulevard. That's not a real thing,

(02:50):
but for the people in North Hollywood, California, they know
it is. But guya, welcome to the show. Where are
you coming to us from today? From New York City
all the way? Okay, okay um, And yeah, we're gonna
talk a little bit about your book and some other
technology things as we get into it. But how has
it been, you know, doing doing a few interviews, getting
out there talking with interesting people? Are we the most

(03:13):
interesting people you've spoken with so far? Without really being
ten minutes into a conversation, can we for sure? You're
the funniest nobody? Okay, y, that's all I ever wanted. Well,
you're the funniest for sure. Okay, well, gaya, we are
going to get to know you a little bit better.
But first we're gonna tell people some of the things
we're gonna talk about. First, the Pope's puffy jacket, No,

(03:37):
he is not. His style is not that lit. Although
I guess many people would love if the pont Effects
was doing a pontifflex upon us mortals on planet Earth.
But we'll talk about that AI generated image. I just
remember some people the evolution of people being like I
can't believe it to them like, oh, yeah, I knew
that was AI the whole time. Yeah, I knew. I

(03:58):
knew the slippery slope that we're all, are you finding
ourselves on in the last couple of weeks. With that,
we'll also talk about Apple, because it seems like they're
also ignoring the total lack of enthusiasm for virtual reality
headsets with their upcoming you know, mixed reality headset that
I can't believe they're still insisting is something we might want.
But we'll talk a little bit about that and the

(04:19):
you know, lack of confidence that some of the people
working on it are experiencing. And then gotta talk to
Gaya about Look, I'm a new parent. I'm very aware
of you know, just how many other parents too or
talk about screen time. I was raised by my mother
like saying, don't watch the TV. It's going to rot
your brain. And how all of these things have evolved.

(04:41):
So I'm really interested in talking to you about sort
of the evolution of our addictive technologies and kind of
we're you know, hurtling towards this very isolated way of living,
because that's something we talk about a lot from the show.
But first, Guya, we gotta ask you, Professor Guya Birdstein Party,
what is something from your search history that might reveal

(05:02):
something about who you are, what you're into right now?
So you know, I like this question because I remember
going to a conference and seeing a slide and having
the Google search, but instead it said I confess. So basically,
whatever is in our search is like what's going for
our brains, and there's nothing special in my chest. Basically
it shows how my brain just jumps from one thing

(05:23):
to another. So I would be researching a privacy class,
so I would look for a movie about drones. Then
I remember, I know this person. I wrote an article
so I will switch to googling their name, and then
a minute later, I'll remember that I have to feed
my kids, and there's this fish in the fridge and
of a recipe, so I look for the recipe, and
then I recall that I never got grocery, so I

(05:46):
switched to googling the fresh Direct. So and all of
this happens in ten minutes. So really this you can
see how my brain operates from this? Sure? Sure? And
do you It is funny when you can kind of
look at your own stream of consciousness via Google searches
and you're like, wow, I had I had an interesting
two hours right there from like looking at wait, so

(06:07):
what's this? What kind of drone stuff were you looking up? Well?
I was looking up for I teach about privacy and drones.
And actually the first time I showed my student drones
it was when COVID nineteen broke in China, and I
just was the only video I found online. So they
started to show it to them, never realizing that a
month later this is going to be here, and this

(06:30):
was just showing them how drones can basically fly over
an empty city and how it looks and how it
takes pictures and it was shocking to know what happened next. Yeah,
what kind of privacy laws are there with drones, because
I feel like it's I get that, like you're not
supposed to do like fly drones in certain areas, but
like in LA, I see so many people like in

(06:51):
residential areas, Like I'll hear the were of like a
drone and it's like what I saw on like the
murder Trial documentary had like drones that were flying and
watching as people remove funds from a place, like it
was like legit evidence and it was just a dude
with a drone. Yeah, there's not enough. The main thing

(07:11):
has to do is registered with the FAA, but it's
not Basically you can do a lot with the drone
right now. Yeah, the kid with a drone right exactly.
And I see like, but then I see videos or
people are like I took a drone down that was
above my home, And part of me is like, I
guess that's fair if you're using a bolow to take
a drone down. But yeah, it's good to know. Starting

(07:32):
early on the Robot Wars, you know, yeah, right, I
mean alrighty, it's funny when you see like people help
sometimes help the delivery robots get across the street, and
then you see like the like ludite type people who
are like, man, this robot like kick it over, and
you're just like, just decide on one miles. You should
know that ludites were a name for revolutionary workers. Come on, yes,

(07:54):
I know, but look and just like we should be
smashing chat GPT, we should probably smashing them printing presses.
I get that. Man, that's a whole other boxel worms too.
In the last couple of days of talking like really
earnestly with people about AI and some people really being
on the side of like it's a great tool that
could make things so much easier, and as somebody who

(08:14):
has been laid off before or look how budget cuts
their man, I'm like, that looks like a way to
condense like fifteen jobs into two. But are we then
grappling with the complexity of that after I'm like torn
because I did work in AI in my PhD that
I quit. But I think like everything gets like automated,
and job security just like constantly changes as technology evolves.

(08:38):
So I think that responsibility like definitely like the people
making the tech need to be talking to policymakers more
to prepare like the masses for like the skill changes
that like I mean, think about computer scientists now versus
fifteen years ago, like the like the job market that's
completely changed, you know. And I think AI is scary
because of what we're going to talk about next, But

(09:00):
there are good uses for it. It's just like people
are I'm like, I'm not going to be impressed with
AI until someone makes like a single printer that works reliably,
you know what I mean. Like, I don't care about
all of these advances. I just want a printer to work,
you know. I want a PowerPoint to not defeat a professor. Okay, guy,

(09:21):
what are you? How are you? Like? What's how it
is sort of AI sort of intersect with your work
right now? Well, I think I feel like the writing
has been on the wall for a while. People are
so shocked that chat GPT came in, and what are
they going to do with students and how are they
going to learn anything? But but seriously, we've just been
incorporated technology into the classroom, like without even thinking so,

(09:46):
and suddenly this thing is there and it's the first
time we are stopping to think and realizing maybe maybe
not all technology is good. Maybe a kid would not
learn if they their essays written by chat YPT. So
even though I'm concern about what's going to happen, I'm
sort of happy there's some kind of wake up coal here, right. Yeah.

(10:06):
I talked to some professors about this. I talked to
a professor from Germany and he was saying that they
do use like AI to write essays, but the ways
to get around that is they have like rival technology
to detect when AI is being used to write the essay.
So that's what's happening in Europe right now. And I
was like, how how much is this going to go
back and forth? This is like a kid battling their

(10:28):
parent with parental controls, you know what I mean, like
try to lock them out with the password, right, and
that never goes anywhere because there's always a new technology,
and it's just yeah, but the fact we have we're
faced by this and it's out there. There was no warning.
It just came the CHAGYBT and I was supposed to
deal with the consequences and there's no time to think
even yeah out here. Yeah, And because i They're like

(10:50):
I have friends too, who are like in grant writing too,
they're not born writers, you know, they're just like motivated
people in the field that they do in grant writing
is difficult, and they're like, it's taken a lot of
work off of my plate. I'm not a born writer
or like I have these literary skill to be writing
like compelling things. It's much easier to use that. And
I'm like, I completely understand where these tools like how

(11:11):
they're used. And then I have friends who work in
advertising who are like, yeah, company clients are now coming
to us with like half baked decks that AI generated,
and it's like sort of diminishing the kinds of work
that we're able to do even as advertising agencies along
with them. And I'm like, you see, you see where
the sort of the squeezing and expansion is beginning to happen.

(11:31):
But yeah, it's this is why robots need to take
over all of the labor. And then we just get
to frolic and fields all day. Thank you know what
I mean, Let us let us frolic let us easier times. Oh,
we just consume and sit on our screens and nothing
else because wale, Okay, Kyle, what is something that you

(11:54):
think is overrated. What I think is overrated. I think
it's um basically nexting progress. So I'll give you two
examples what I mean by that. So I am supposed
to meet a friend in a restaurant and she arrives
five minutes early, so she texts me'm I just got here,
And then she texts me two minutes later. I'm sitting

(12:15):
at the corner on the table, and then you know,
I come in and instead of looking for her, I
text her I'm here. And why all these extra texting?
It's not really necessary? Or I live in New York City.
We order food all the time. We order delivery, so
you know, you get confirmation when you order food. I
guess that's good. You know your order got in. But

(12:36):
then you get another text your food is being prepared,
and then you get another one your delivery is on
the way. And then usually like two minutes after we're delivered,
you get a text saying congratulations your food is aliver Right, right?
Do we really need all of this? That makes me think,
you know, like the constant progress alerts has to be

(12:57):
something that I know, like in your book, you touch
on like the idea that a lot of technology stuff
is informed by like like neuropsychologists too, and just the
idea of like what's going to get someone like this
is actually a future that people want even though we're
like do we But I also get it in the
age of such instant gratification that it's probably for the
kinds of people who are like, well, what's going on
with my order? Like where is it? And then you

(13:19):
can at least have Oh okay, they've they're preparing it.
Oh okay, they have another stop along the way. Right.
We spent a little top because every time I get
one of these texts, I just just say, Okay, the
food is coming, my kids will get dinner. I start
looking at my emails and I start taking a Facebook
and I've spent ten minutes just because I got this

(13:40):
extra text. Wow. Also, it takes the responsibility off of
the person to be like patient, you know what I
mean like that, and that makes like more face to
face conversations and demands like much more terrifying, because people
expect efficiency at their demand and at their service, you know,
right right. I was just I just was thinking of

(14:03):
recently I got like a like a like a like
a delivery thing and it was like telling me. They're like, oh, yeah,
this package will arrive in like five days from now,
four days from now. I'm like, yeah, I knew that
when you gave me the like, you know, expected delivery date.
And to that point, I'm like, maybe this is for
a very specific kind of psychology that it's catering to,

(14:24):
because it certainly was not me. Guya, what's something you
think is underrated? Well, two things which I related, I
think alarm clocks and wrist watches. So if I had
an alarm clock, instead of using the alarm on my phone,
instead of getting up in the morning in bed and
picking up my phone and force checking my email, three

(14:47):
email accounts, my social networks and what's up whatever text,
I could maybe just you know, woke wake up in
a more normal way. But if I don't, I don't
have separate alarm. I'm dreaming about that to get to one.
And another thing is ast wristwatch. I don't want to

(15:10):
have one either. I actually lost it three months ago
and get a chance to buy a new a new one.
But so every time I want to know the time again,
I pick up my phone and I just described what happens.
So I think this are things that if they came
back into fashion, would be great. I know. That's what
Like the Apple watch was like so insidious, Like I
got it in the beginning of the pandemic, like as

(15:32):
like a heart rate monitor too, because I was like
running more and I was like, oh, this is great
and I can I don't have to bring an iPod.
I can like listen with my like with my wrist
watch without it's like less bulk. But to your point, now,
when I look at my wrist, it's for so much
more than the time, and it's yeah, the the amounts
of information on offer from such a small devices, it

(15:53):
can definitely take your attention. And I was a kid.
I used to wear a wristwatch and like they're great,
and I was the only one who did so I
was like a little baby businessman and I always needed
it before I went to school. Hall I was like,
I'm gonna be late, mother, Let's get there right right,
That's all I have to offer to You're like, you're like, well, no,
we have plenty of time, Like well is your watch
said to the atomic clock like mine, because we are behind,

(16:17):
we have to go. That was but it's funny. I
also like wore a wrist watch too, Like was one
of those like nerdy kids just like to have like
a watch, Like yeah, it's like or be like a
um actually type kid were like, oh, we should actually
go into recess because it's already like one thirty. They didn't.
Are you a roller backpack kid? No, rolliebags came out
my junior year of high school. That's like when we

(16:38):
hit peak rolliebag. I'm a I'm an elder. So the
earliest people that I remember there was this one girl
I would school, a Libby. She I remember she heard
her back like like you know, playing in the yard
or whatever, and the doctor told her she couldn't wear
a backpack. So she had like a travel suitcase that
she would bring around. So funny to us, you were
like that it was the o g rolliebag was just
bringing a travel suitcase around. I have thought about doing

(16:59):
that at the girl through store before I got a car.
I was like this closed to bringing just a suitcase
grostery store. I love the efficiency. I love the efficiency.
So guy, await, So I love that You're like, you'd
be great to having a long clock. Me myself don't
have one, but I think it would be fantastic. What's
I love, like the sort of paradoxical relationship we all

(17:20):
have with these kinds of things, or like that's what
I need. Don't have one yet, but I feel it's
something I could that could definitely help me. Yeah, Miss Gaya,
Mother Earth, she wakes up with the sun. Okay, come down,
I wait with the sun, but not because I want to,
because I had Okay, cool, Well, let's take a quick
break and we'll be right back to talk about some

(17:42):
some really cool, uh Catholic fashion trends coming out of
Rome right after this. Over the weekend, Oh, we're back. Sorry,
I'm rusty, folks. I've been on paternal leave parental leave,

(18:05):
and I've this is my first time speaking with people
over the age of like seven weeks old. So this
is helping me a lot as I slowly get back
into this. We're back, but I want to get into
our first story. So over the weekend, there was a
huge splash on social media when an image of the
Pope warring puffy white jacket came out and it was
the talk of many text threads and conversations between people

(18:29):
I know who are Catholic and they're Catholic parents who
are like, see, he's pretty cool, check him out. But
turns out it was an AI generated image, which left
many people sort of like ingenuine shock, and this like
the sort of journey of this image was. It was
first posted to the mid Journey AI subreddit and from there,

(18:50):
you know, I think if anyone knew where it was,
you go, oh, this is posted in the place where
people are posting AI generated images. But there there is
a Reddit to Twitter pipeline that most people aren't maybe
aren't aware of, or a lot of the context just
gets ripped and then put on Twitter immediately, sometimes with
no context or whatever. And then many people were like,
what is a go weighing on here? The pope looks

(19:13):
fantastic or is he really wearing all that? But I
think with anything, if you weren't looking on Twitter and
you kind of looked at a bigger image, you could
kind of see that there were some inconsistencies about just
you know, physics or like light or what kind of
crucifix even the pope would wear. But I was curious
if you all saw this picture and what your own

(19:35):
evolution of thoughts was with this. I saw it, and
I didn't think any thoughts. I just retweeted my friend's
tweet that said dope Francis because I thought that was cool,
and I also want to add some that was at
Beth Borden, and then I also want to add some
important context. She responded to her tweet with a comment

(19:55):
from Reddit that was like, Mussalms are sweaty knee, sweet
crosses heavy, last supper is ready. It's Lord Spaghetti by
Lebron James Johnson. So I didn't think any thoughts. I
guess I don't have enough Catholic friends. I was just like,
that's a funny joke, and I retweeted it because like
what he's wearing has no effect on any policies or

(20:16):
any real thing. So I was like, this is dumb.
But then later I was like, oh, yeah, I do
need to look at images more closely to know if
they're AI, but eventually it's going to get to a
point where we won't know. Yeah, I mean this this
kind of goes along with just like in the last
week there was like Helon Musk holding hands with AOC
or Trump getting arrested, and like there's one of Macron.
Also there's a lot of Trump makeout yeah yeah, and

(20:41):
like and with Trump, we know like that man is
not dynamic enough to ever cause emotion blur in in
a still image. So I was like this, Sai, my
man is not My mind is not that spry, Okay.
But again with like a lot of people were saying that,
like some there was maybe a reason why some people
were quick to at first quite possibly believe that this
was real because apparently there's a group of people that

(21:04):
think that he, like the Pope, is like very stylish,
and that there were rumors going around that he was
like wearing designer loafers that the Vatican had to debunk
because people are like, well, it's Rome. It's like fashion
is everywhere, and like why wouldn't he And then while
others were just like, I think it just goes part
in parcel with like people's celebrity worship or the idea

(21:24):
that just like oh yeah, yeah, that's I'd believe that
I buy that, or because how oversaturated even images of
celebrities look, that these Ai sort of imitations are just
sort of hitting all taking all these boxes visually that
are sort of our guards come down. Guya. What are
your thoughts on on dope, Francis, But that's in the
same I missed a bit, so sometimes I'm not inconsistent.

(21:47):
I actually follow what I preached, so I'd tried not
dispense too much time on Twitter, so I didn't see it.
But I agree with if you said basically, I mean
this is going to be perfect. I mean, right now
people can tell us AI, but it's just a matter
of time. And then the question is how do you
decide what's reality and what's real and what's not, which
has been an issue for a lot for quite a

(22:09):
while with words. But once you get into pictures, when
you lose When when a vision tells gets perfect, like
chatty pet will get perfect, that's when we really really
have a problem. Right. This is the image Guy of
just of him in this like puffy jacket. Oh wow,
so this because it was so fashionable, everyone was like, oh,

(22:30):
we love this, we love this. And again like you're saying, Guy,
like it's imperfect right now, And many people pointed out
these imperfections like like hands, we've seen that, like all
these AI have real trouble rendering like hands and legs,
like the Trump arresting like he had like he was
like a quadruped like in that image, and then a
lot of like other religious people were like, that is

(22:52):
not the kind of crucifix the pope would wear if
they look at that, or even like the way the
glasses frames were blending into the shadow of it were
like very you know, keen eyed people thought. But for
most people who are just looking at an image like
this on Twitter or like on a passive scroll, like
to your point, when they really dial things in, it's
truly gonna like the amount of like reconciliation that has

(23:16):
to happen in your brain to be like what am
I looking at is definitely going to increase. Yeah, And
I guess when you think about it, like what what
is the damage? I know there's some laws to regulate
you know, photography fakes in some states, not many of them,
but but they are all kinds of other harms that
can be caused by just you know, showing somebody in

(23:36):
a place they would never were, or where they're not
supposed to be with somebody they're not supposed to be
with them. I'm not sure it might again take years
until something is done about that, right. I wanted to
ask your thoughts because you are in law and so
accolated within it. How what about like the ramifications for
like court based evidence, Like already the justice system is

(23:58):
so flawed. How are we gonna you know, voicemail, voice notes, calls, images,
all of these are used as evidence. How do we
know what's going to be real and what's going to
be presented to a jury? Right? So, but with every
kind of evidence, there's always an analysis, you know. For example,
when we started getting DNA evidence, it took a while
until it was accepted. The problem here is photographs are

(24:21):
already accepted as evidence exactly, So you have to decide
how you treated you sort of do you start treating
it as less reliable? And that's confusing, right yeah, But
that's only so that's suddenly it's like, I'm sorry, this
video evidence is just not reliable because we're our ability
to fake everything and it could absolutely be something that
would you know, absolve someone of guilt or you know,

(24:43):
convict Someone's this this voicemail of Joe Biden saying the
N word on a call. No, like all the deep
pig voices of the presidents. They had him like singing
like rap lyrics since and it sounds like him, you know,
like all of the the AI voice. They have like
a lot of like gamer videos of Trump and Biden

(25:03):
and Obama playing video games together and using their voices,
you know what I mean, Like yeah, to talk shit
to each other during a gameplay content I never wanted.
But I didn't hear one of a deep faked Trump.
And the one thing I was like, they can't get
his cadence right, Like the tone of voice was right,
but his way, his manner of speaking of like good

(25:25):
luck for the person who has to like program the
nuances of that speech to like into an algorithm, because
that's yeah. The Biden one was like, was there were
tiktoks of boomers being scared by their like millennial and
gen Z kids like hearing Biden like say the N
word and say all this like crazy stuff, and they
were like, oh my goodness. Like the use of the
propaganda for election campaigns, like by the time for this

(25:48):
image for example, like everybody saw it and then no
one saw the follow up story. You know that happens
all the time when even you know, human generated inaccurate
headlines are produced and then people don't see the corrections,
like the damage just already done. So what do we
do then, yeah, slippery slope, but I mean it sounds
like yeah, like as of now you can kind of
you can kind of tell because it looks like a

(26:09):
trippy oil painting. Still, if you look real close, the
skin's always shinier than it has to be. But yeah,
that's how I look in pictures. It's just like a
and we know I'll go with them teach themselves so
they will learn eventually how it look perfectly. It's really
a matter of time and awful lot of time until
it will be perfect, right. It's just yeah, it really

(26:31):
is a very interesting time because things are just feel
like they're just accelerating now to speed that like the nineties,
you're like, yeah, man, you heard a CD rom And
then it's like you don't need the caddy anymore. You
can insert the CD disc straight in. That was like
three years of time. And now we're going from like, hey,
you can swap faces on Snapchat to like you hear
Joe Biden say the N word on this phone call

(26:53):
and you're like, what, how it's kind of interesting how
we like will be reverting to like non technical stuff
because talking to that professor about the AI writing the essays.
The only fool proof way of making sure people don't
cheat is like, because you can try to get more
localized and specific with the topics, but eventually it's going
to get to a point where you have to just
like watch them write the essay in front of you

(27:15):
on paper, you know what I mean. And that's like
reverting back to when we didn't have it, Like we
use the technology so much it's irresponsible. Now we don't
get to use it anymore, you know, I think it
would be some advantages. You know, I've been sitting in
classrooms teaching students on Wi Fi for a while, and
I never understood why I have to compete against the Internet. Why, Well,
I'm talking everybody can be shopping on Instagram. And actually

(27:38):
if you cut down to Wi Fi, which is how
people have to do exams, so they won't be able
to cheat and they'll have secure systems and the computers,
that might be place we should have gone earlier. Right, Yeah,
it is true. I mean, like I remember when I
got to college, like this was this is like the
beginning of laptops being just you know, ubiquitous, like they

(28:00):
were everywhere, and I remember like the first time I
popped my laptop open. In my Spanish and Iberian history class,
I was looking at nonsense and I hadn't was absolutely
just missed the entire lesson because I was so amazed.
I was like, yeah, I can do I can multitask
quote unquote, But really I was absolutely just distracting myself. Yeah,

(28:22):
and you doing versus school here in New York City.
I mean, kids were saying, how I supposed to study,
but he's playing games on the computers. I'm just watching
the kid next to me on the game. Right. Well,
this next story I think is really interesting because we're
talking about just sort of the speed at which we're
moving towards like not needing human interaction really anymore. You know,

(28:43):
Virtual reality or VR as I remember it in the
nineties was a real hook for people that were really
interested in technology, you know, like it was in film
and TV and video games, and like sort of gave
us this idea of like a world where all you
had to put on was a goofy looking hell helmet
and now you are experiencing a new reality. And it

(29:04):
was like I get that. From that time, We're like, Wow,
the ability of computers is fantastic. This could really be
something anyway, fast forward to now where no one is
interested in wearing a helmet to use Google Docs or
living on a beach digitally or whatever. Yet a lot
of the big tech companies are insisting that it's the
wave of the future. Specifically, you know, Mark Zuckerberg completely

(29:27):
took a big swing with the metaverse and ended up
being not what he thought it was going to be
because again, this was like a weird way from the
way he saw its, like, this is a new way
for people to work and toil. And I think most
people who are on that side of the equation, we're like, no,
don't don't want that at all. Actually, I'm fine with
the way we're doing it. I'm actually less distracted without

(29:48):
having to put on a VR headset and be in
some like emoji or like avatar based meeting or something
like that. And now Apple is just they're going full
steam ahead with their mixed reality heads and people that
have worked on the product are giving some insight now
to how the internal design team thinks it's going to be,
and it's not great. Quote. Some company insiders have been

(30:09):
wondering if the upcoming headset is a solution in search
of a problem sources still the media outlet that quote.
Unlike the iPod, which put digital songs in people's pockets,
and the iPhone, which combined the abilities of a music
player and a phone, the headset hasn't been driven by
the same clarity. And I can totally see that. I mean,
not only that, it sounds like they are numerous like

(30:30):
deserters of the project who are working on it, like
at Apple, because they just felt that the end product
wasn't going to live up to like what they think
it's going to be, while like other people have been
fired because you know, they failed to make certain features work.
It's just when you look at it right now, we're
in a landscape where this is not necessarily a booming market,
like Meta has had to slash the price of their

(30:51):
top tier fifteen hundred dollar headset by a third to
try and entice people. This Apple headset, you know how much,
is rumored to be three thousand dollars. They are not
going to Google glasses. I am sorry that is not happening.
I get that the Apple fans out there, they might
be like, oh yeah, I got it yesterday, But again,

(31:14):
this does feel like this weird thing where I'm not
really sure what this how this is making anything easier,
or what the novelty is going to be. And it
just feels like, again, like with all of our technology,
if we're like if in this world where maybe people
were using VR more, I'd imagine we're just going to
increasingly like more one dimensional forms of communication without much

(31:35):
real human contact. You know, it's hard to say, it's
how to say if what's happening, like what happened with videos,
Like for decades people were saying they're going to have
video conferencing and everything will be on video, and nothing
happened until quite recently, really until the pandemic, I would say,
nobody was really doing it. And I wonder if this
is just some kind of delay and eventually they will

(31:56):
find a way to do it. I mean, I was
worried about that. I was thinking, I mean, not only
in our screens all the time, if we're completely in
a different reality that we know, interaction between us whatsoever.
But I guess I'm relieved that this is delayed, but
I'm not sure who delayed forever? Right? So do you
think it all way? Right? If like the very cynical

(32:19):
version is like We're on this very increasingly intense path
where technology is going to make things easier or whatever
or communication streamlined, which really means less human interaction. And
because of maybe that feeling of isolation, these headsets are
going to offer us some feeling of like humanity again.
Is that like maybe where it's gonna like the hook

(32:39):
point we'll return for it. They're like, hey, remember we
used to see people put this headset on. I feel
like this is I mean, that's why it was invented,
is because of like rich people's playgrounds, right, Like they
are isolated and they feel weird, and so they're like,
how are we going to perform our man hunts on
islands during the next pandemic? You know what I mean,
Let's go VR with it. But if you've ever used

(33:01):
a VR heads like I've played, I've done like gains
like at arcades and stuff with and it like it
literally makes me throw up. Like some of them have
been such unpleasant experiences, like fake roller coasters and stuff
that I got like really sick after in a way
that I never had gotten on like real roller coasters,
you know what I mean. I'm like, I'm like some

(33:23):
of it just feels I feel like some of it
could be used in Guantanamo, is what I'm saying, Like,
I feel like that's where this is gonna be weaponized
eventually for true yeah, for true psychological terror ops for yeah.
But guy, like, so, how do you sort of see
it evolveing? Because, like I think, from our perspective right now,
is we see it coming from like like an employer

(33:44):
class that goes like, this is the future of work.
You know. That's how Meta was sort of sort of
centering the metaverse in the beginning, was like this is
going to replace how you meet and how teams interact
and things like that, And most workers were like, no,
that's that sounds like added It's sort of like added
intensity or a level of connection that isn't necessary given

(34:05):
that we're able to work together online. But how do
you sort of see this evolution happening where they like
we're like, yeah, I guess what. Everybody's got one of
these now, So you know, I thought this was heading
this way. I was actually if you'd ask me, you know,
six months ago, a year ago, I was sure this
together with smart cities were connected everywhere and I phone

(34:26):
is used for everything, is where we're headed. So I
am surprised, and I'm always wondering if what happened here
is that people were somehow struck by the pandemic because
they sort of felt you know, there were lockdowns, they
were at home, they felt what it means to be
on the screen all the time not seeing people. They
felt how their bodies felt, they felt how their minds felt.

(34:49):
And maybe they're realizing more than before because when I
was speaking before the pandemic to people, it was mostly
parents who are a warried and something is shifted. So
I'm wondering if that's I'm wondering if it's technological issues
or it's partly how people feel about it. And I
really really hope it's the latter. Hm. I feel like,

(35:11):
at the end of the day, we are people and
we need human connection and our brains will explode if
we don't have that. You know, we have access to
all of these technologies. But at the same time, people
really wanted to just go to restaurants during the pandemic
and eat together. So yeah, and hear like human laughter,
and I remember so much how I longed to like
eat with a group of like, you know, like eat

(35:33):
off someone's plate, like let me try that, you know, yeah,
to like get a hug from someone, you know, Oh man,
that early day and burst into tears. I was doing
like turnaway hugs from like my grandfather and stuff like
wearing all these ppe It was like, all right, you
gotta go, man, you're almost ninety, Yeah, mess around. But
again it's true, like and we'll get into this um

(35:53):
after the break we talk a little bit about your book, guy,
because I do feel like we are in this experience
as people where the technology is making our lives easier.
And for the record, everyone like we're all no one
hears like hates technology. But the thing that we're up
against now is like we're starting to see how it's
eroding at these like little things and increasing this feeling
of alienation, and yet we still are using it, like

(36:18):
we just can't quit it. And your book sort of
gets to the crux of that feeling. We'll talk about
that right after the break. We'll be right back. So,
you know, talking about your book Guya Unwired, you know,

(36:42):
basically gaining control over addictive technologies. It really struck me
just because again for many younger people, like the allure
of the smartphone isn't an obscure phenomenon. Like we talk
constantly about unplugging and the benefits it's had on our
own mental health, Like just anecdotally amongst ourselves, your book
address is sort of one of the main I feel
like cycles of emotions many of us have in relation

(37:05):
to using screens, where like we get motivated to use
the screen less and then we're like, oh, this feels great.
Then we are sucked right back in and we feel
like shit, and it feels like like we kind of
come down to like I don't know, it's wow, Like
I just lack the self control. It's sort of like
the final sort of sentiment people land on and like
grappling with technologies. As a new parent too, I'm just

(37:28):
again very aware about screen time and I also feel
that like there's a certain futility around it too with
a lot of parents or they're like, I don't know,
you know, sooner or later it's just going to be
normal for them, and maybe I'm trying to delay the inevitable.
But it also apps. I've seen how much it can help,
you know, put a kid at ease and allow somebody
to do something else where do you feel like parents

(37:50):
and people kind of fit into this mix where we're
like the world is spinning around us, and we're like,
am I bad? Or what is happening? Like is our
brains meant this? Or we up against something a little
bit more intense than we realized. I think we're an
interesting place right now because we have a lot of information.
We have lots of information from whistle lowers from the

(38:12):
tech companies telling us how tech companies are addicting us
to keep us online for longer. But still we keep
blaming ourselves. We keep thinking it's our fault and we
are unable to stop spending time online. We blame our kids,
we blame our families. The problem is that that's exactly

(38:33):
what the tech companies want us to do, and that's
why they're giving us all these tools to make us
feel like we're in control. So once the evidence came
out that it's that they're trying to addict us, they
gave us these digital well being tools. You know, everybody
who has an iPhone has this screen time, so you

(38:53):
know how much time you are online, or you can
even limit the time on your apps, or you can
make your gray or they're warning you could put warnings
on Instagram and not to talk about parental controls, which
are getting more and more complicated. And but the thing
is these are just there so we all feel like

(39:15):
we're doing something, but they're not really there to make
us succeed because they do not really change the most
addictive features in our devices or in our apps. There
are just there, so we will think that it is
our fault, exactly like you were describing. And again, how
in this world right if we're pivoting from it's not

(39:38):
us because it's like, you know, you've likened it to
like the tobacco industry, where like they know they know it,
they know it bad for everybody, but then the gas
lighting starts and it's like I don't know about them.
I mean, we know what's going on, but we're not
going to actually cop to it. Do you see like
a similar evolution where on some level, I mean, because
I feel like if anything, like you're saying, like the

(40:00):
markets and capitalism a very good way of shielding themselves
from like having the profits go down, so they'll find
a way like you're saying, to be like no, no,
you actually have control. It's not the it's not the
other things that were just identified clear as day by
someone working on it. You have control. Now you know
what what what does that sort of battle look like.
I think we're fighting the battle in the wrong place.

(40:20):
Now we're finding fighting with ourselves, we're fighting with our families.
I think we have to shift to the public sphere.
And it is already happening. There's lots of action already
taking place. There are parents suing social media for addicting
their kids, causing mental harm, parents suing game manufacturers. There
are things happening. But I think people have to understand

(40:45):
it's not just flawyers, it's for everybody, because everybody can
shift what they're doing to the collective sphere. Parents can
go to schools. They have an influence about what schools
are doing. Schools on our exemising technology in the classroom
because that's the federal policy. Well this could be changed.

(41:06):
You can decide whether something is useful in the classroom,
certain technology is useful or not. You can decide whether
you want the kids to be on their cell phones
during recess instead of talking to each other. So that's
the spaces when you can change things, and you can
change normals. Something you're saying, you know, maybe it's already happening,
but the new norms evolving every day, which I'm making

(41:29):
it worse. I was in vacation with my kids and
there was a family in the pool and my son
was calling me to look at this. There were two girls,
I think nine and eleven, and their parents gave them
these plastic pads to put their iPhones inside so they
can use the iPhones in the pool instead of playing. Now,

(41:50):
you know, this is evolving trend, just like a few
years ago it started to evolve take the kids out
with iPads to the restaurant. Now so many people about
doing it, So there are ways too. I think things
are going to change. I think they're going to be
lots of legal action and tech companies will be restricted
in what they could do, but it will take some years.

(42:12):
So thinks people can do things as business owners. I
mean in New York City all the airports. If you
go to an airport, there are four iPads at every table.
There is no way you can have a conversation there.
So this is architecture for overuse. You can change. If
you own a restaurant, you can change. You should don't

(42:34):
have to use iPads, you don't have to use QR codes,
so people will take out their phones the moment they
sit down. So I think there are a lots once
people are worth a lot of things they can do
until things will change, and I do believe they're already
starting to change. Have you heard of like the third
spaces concept or theory about how there needs to be

(42:57):
a place for people outside of like work and the home,
for them to like gather and to exchange information and
you know, basically develop culture. I think a lot of
people are saying that the phones are now teenagers and
kids third spaces because a lot of other third spaces
have become unsafe and unaccessible and inaccessible to them. For example,

(43:19):
my friend posted about how in New York when she
was growing up, it became illegal for kids under eighteen
to go hang out at the mall. And apparently that's
a thing that's been happening a lot. Whereas when I
was growing up, that's where we would go and hang
out with our friends. We'd go to the mall, we'd
hang out and go to Jomba juice. You'd like, I'd
try not to leave the bookstore with too many purchases.

(43:40):
You know, like you you'd hang out, but now it's
considered like loitering or whatever. Like a lot of these
external places that are meant for cultural exchange and you know,
kids to grow up are becoming unavailable to them. And also, honestly,
with like mass shootings and all of that, people get

(44:00):
more scared of going out in public and it seems
to be safer to have them just like inside on
their phones, which it doesn't necessarily you know, there are
other risks with that. So I think it would be
I like how you highlighted it, that it's going to
be an effort on these places and these people who
are in charge of those areas, because it really does
require cooperation between them and between the companies that are

(44:24):
like forcing their technology on people. Yeah, and I think
a lot. Municipalities can do a lot because they can
create spaces for people to hang out and for kids
to walk to. If you have places to be together,
it's very different than if you go home after school
and sit in your bedroom with your phone. Because the

(44:46):
statistics at by shocking. I mean, kids are meeting I
think fifty percent less than they used to be in
the eighties and parting. I think thirty three percent less
then not getting together. So you can't by design create
spaces for people to get together. So I mean, if

(45:07):
you think about bars that having a cigarettes today, this
seems so implausible, you know, before it happened and things
look different now. Can you think about a bar without
every person having their phone next to them? Yeah, it's
it's it feels like in a way, like it's almost
futile to try and reverse things, like in a way

(45:30):
because like, for example, one of the last concerts I
went to, like amazing show and there are people experiencing
the concert through their cell phone, like so much like
watching you such a pet peeve of mine. I saw
Tom Petty in in person and I was in like
the first or second row, and this girl next to

(45:53):
me literally was on her phone and she was like,
oh my god, this is such a great song to
delete pictures too, And I was like Tom Petty is
on stage right now, right, or that we've lost the
bit like even like with the example of people like
in a pool, right, like that swimming isn't enough on
some level, that like the just being able to play
in the water is not like stimulating enough that we're

(46:15):
now adding like well, what if we augmented that with
some like audio visual stuff too that I'm like, because again,
I think this is what feels difficult for people, like
even myself. I was. I remember when I got my
last vaccination, I forgot my phone in the car, and
then when you go in there, you gotta wait like
twenty minutes after like for them just to chill out.
And I was like, first, I was panicked because I'm like,

(46:37):
I haven't had to wait without my phone in ages,
and I there was a moment of sincere like fear,
not fear, but like I was, I became uneasy and
I didn't like that. I felt so disarmed to just
exist in a space without a fucking screen to look at.
And it was funny because I sat down in the
chair like in the you know, pain relief medicine aisle,

(47:00):
and I was just doing I felt like a kid again.
It was like, I'm like reading all the labels. No,
I'm just like, I'm gonna read all the labels. Yeah,
that's I go. If I got twenty minutes to kill,
I'm gonna start reading labels and just start being in
my own thoughts again. And it was interesting how foreign
that felt to me even though I was you know,
I was born in the eighties, like I'm older millennial.
I grew up in the pre internet time too, which

(47:20):
felt like the most Like all humans are probably wired
to want to do this and connect to other people,
but we've definitely it's become so normal that to the
point where feeling human feels foreign, And that's what's really
scary to me. Well, I don't think we get to
go back in time, but I think we can balance
things better. Imagine if you went to concert and the
concert whole said no phones, so nobody could take off

(47:43):
their phones to take pictures. Maybe the phones will be
in their bags. That is changing the norms in a
way it could be done, and that things will affect everybody.
But I guess, like in there, right, there's an argument
to say, like, well, if someone actually needed to contact
me during it, then that would be like why would
how would like how do you find a way that
makes it so it's not just sort of like across

(48:04):
the board no phones, but we're able to, Like I
guess that's the hard part of Like there are phones
for taking no pluonts for taking pictures of the show.
You can do so with you. But yeah, that's museums.
They do that too. Like I tried to take a
picture of a painting recently into like no no, no. Yeah,

(48:24):
but it's also like that painting is gonna be online.
Nobody's gonna take you. Like I don't need to take
a picture of that painting. Yeah. One thing that helped
me is like literally spending more time with people and
like making an effort to do that, to like leave
my home and go spend time with people. I'm trying
to do that like once a day because I work remotely.
And then the other thing is like I have dogs

(48:44):
and when I walk them, one of them's a little
monster and he will try to eat stuff, and so
I have to like pay attention. And now I'm like
I know where all the good sticks are, you know,
I know where all the great grasses. I'm like going
back to when I was a kid and I was
just outside playing with my dogs, and it's so nice
to take a walk outside when it's sunny here, lay
and be with my pets, you know, and talk to

(49:06):
people who have pets and connect with them that way.
You know. So having things and people around you that
take you out of your head and like give you
an external like rounding two. Community is so important. That's
why I love like mutual aid and like physical activities
that like help with community things, because that really nourishes
a part of you that cannot be nurished in the

(49:27):
same way through a screen. Yeah, I've like in the
same way, like walking around my neighborhood and doing the
unthinkable of talking to a stranger has been the one
thing that I've felt really balances things out because there
was I saw a recent study that like the people
have a sincere fear of small talk falling apart, and

(49:48):
like they like people just have an eight sense, like
that if people begin small talk and the conversation goes south,
that it's suddenly on them, and like people get their
own anxiety of not being able to like keep up
small talk, which is wild because and sometimes you're just
exchanging pleasantries and it doesn't have to be more than that.
But I feel like there's like these certain small things

(50:08):
you can be doing, but at the same time we're
developing like also bad habits around how we communicate to
It's also crazy because everybody has a podcast, so how
are they scared us? All? Yes, all right, guy interrupted,
I'm saying it's also bad for people's well being, because
there are studies which are showing that people's happiness it's
not just about a long term relationship, but also about

(50:31):
these most small interactions exactly the small talk, this eye
contact and a smile that really changed the way your
brain works and makes you feel much better. And if
you're not doing that, and if you're just walking in
a street with your phone, looking at your pictures, answering text,
and you're missing all these opportunities which somehow just makes

(50:53):
you feel drained and tired and not good at the
end of the day. Just when it comes to policy,
I feel like there's a difficult path ahead, you know.
I mean, like we saw how seriously they took privacy
in Europe. The US is a little bit behind, a
lot behind. It's like say, for maybe like California and

(51:15):
a couple other places, but like in just in the
recent hearing on TikTok, it's so clear, at least in
that the narrow context of that hearing, like they just
weren't even able or willing to discuss the broader problems
with social media, and it became sort of this like
very TikTok specific thing. While we've seen to your point,
whistleblowers at like Facebook, etc. Say like these are real issues,

(51:38):
they've had hearings, but then we're not quite seeing the
follow through. What you know, what kind of like policy
proposals are out there, do you think are would actually
benefit people in a way that sort of gets to
the heart of you know, like our overuse of technology,
obviously knowing the parts that it's helped make things easier
for us, but also addressing like the bigger issues of

(52:01):
you know, feeling increasingly isolated and things like that. Yeah,
so I think first of all, the issue with TikTok
is complicated because it just brings out completely different issues
related to China, and it just it's sort of marking
the whole debate. Yeah, but there have been a lot
of bills both further all in state trying to get

(52:23):
first of all, the addictive features of the phones, because
there's some features on our phones which are really up
to no good. What are those from the flashlight? The
flashlight is useful, but you know, for example, streaks on Snapchat. Yeah,

(52:45):
there are there for nothing but to get you to
go back to the platform. So kids have to set kids.
I don't think many adults use it, but you know,
they have to send a streak to their friend and
if they get one within twenty four hours, they've established
a street and they keep accummolating them and then they
have a number, let's one, one hundred and thirty four.
They have special badges and they have older friends onto

(53:07):
the number of streaks. Now, there's no requirement for any
content in these streaks. You just have to make sure
you send it. Why because you go to snapcheck and
you see the ads and if the kids miss a day,
they lose everything and they lose all their friends. And
that's why they get so upset when the parents take

(53:28):
away the phone, because they for them it's a huge thing.
So all these kinds of features like Snapstreak, you have
just there to make it go back to the app
with a device, are not needed, and there are builds
which are trying to outlaw these kinds of features. Of course,

(53:49):
the problem is they'll always come with new ones. Because
the whole business model is based on our time and
our data. They need us to be there for as
long as possible so they can collect more data on us,
so they can target advertising at us, and again we
have to be there for longer so we can see
the ads. So that's why I think it's not just
one thing, not just one law, not just one wonderful

(54:11):
Supreme Court case. It's not going to happen like that.
It's going to happen from a mixture of things that
are going to happen, Like if you have the antitrust
lasses against big tech, that if, for example, the merger
between them, the right now matter owns Facebook owns WhatsApp
owns the Instagram. If they're broken up and there's more morenivation,

(54:33):
more competition, we might see the different business model which
are not based on our time. So so that's another
thing that's happening. I think, as I said earlier, I
think the policy about maximize the technology in the school
has to change because if Minecraft is homework, then how
can you prevent your kid from play Minecraft at home?

(54:56):
There are so there are a lot and then there's
class actions and if you look back, it's cigarettes. You know,
we know cigarettes are bad, but it took decades to
change things. It took class actions, and it took advertising,
and it took warnings and and this is this is

(55:18):
going to be the same. It will take a lot
of things at the same time. For example, let's say
we have ratings for addictiveness. You know, so many parents
download games for the kids, thinking oh, Minecraft is an
educational game. If they could see before they download, this
is high rating for addictiveness, they may not do that.

(55:40):
But not only that, the game's company may change the
game because they want people to download the game, so
they might take the addictive features out by themselves. So
it's a matter of pressuring from many directions to move
things right. And like when you talk about cigarettes, I know,
like the earlier ideas or like maybe in like the

(56:01):
fifties where they knew where do you think we are,
Like if the first studies come out there, Oh it's bad.
Are we close to like the truth dot com era
of like anti smoking ads? Or are we like a
decade away? How I mean? I guess now everything is
moving faster. So maybe what took you know, decades before,
it might take seven years. I don't know. Well, I

(56:22):
think what change would cigarettes? Yeah, you're right, the first
studies came out in the fifties. Nineteen sixty four, the
Certain General announces the Health Hazards It's amazing. It took
so long considering how bad cigarettes are, right, but from
then on we saw you know, advertising, we saw one.
Things took a while, but they started shifting. Our problem

(56:43):
is right now we are still in the science wars.
We do not have you know, a big of metal
organizations saying this is bad, especially for children. With the
evidence is in, we just have partial recommendations for small
kids about screens. I think we have so much data
over the last two or three years. But I think

(57:04):
we're at a place where medical organizations, governmental entities can
make these proclamations and from that moment on polity and
proceed faster. And we already have a lot of action
in place, so I hope that, yeah, things will move faster.
And with cigarettes, I think it will take some years.

(57:26):
And that's why I think it's so important what people
do in their communities, how they change their business norms,
how they change their schools, because things have to happen
at the same time. Otherwise it affects all of us
not to mention a whole generation of kids already in
front of screens for a decade plus a pandemic. Right.

(57:47):
It's interesting that you were talking about this now because
ten years ago, when I was in a little bit
more than ten years when I was in college, people
were failing out of a very great college for Minecraft.
Like it was a joke about how many students would
fail because of their addiction to Minecraft specifically. So it's
interesting that you use that and that they haven't really

(58:09):
changed much. It seems like in the last you know, decade, Yeah,
why change It's a winning formula. And what do you
kind of say, because I like to you know, people
that are frustrated, parents that are frustrated, who are like,
am I fucking up? Like? Am I bad? Because would
you say to Miles, my kid is too young although
he loves the sopranos, I'm gonna say that whenever he

(58:32):
turns his head, I'm like, I don't almost be the
lights or the mom But like, what do you what
I mean? Because I think again, there is this feeling
of like it feels so personal that too when you
talk to other parents about scream time, like, hey, what
the fuck do you want me to do? Man? Like,
it's I got a lot going on? This is this,
this works? And I get that there is this internal
sense of like responsibility. But then feeling helpless because there

(58:53):
is like a what am I going to do a thing?
What do you say to people who are sort of
like in that mental space and like how to sort
of emerge from that or at least to begin to
look at the situation with a little more like context.
So I'll start with you, Miles, since you have a
very small baby, so I think for you it's easy
because you can just decide not to give your baby screen.

(59:15):
The studies are in the smaller child where the baby
is the worst it is, and you have control. So
and I think people have a lot of control all
the way through a lamentary school that so I think
parents can really limit kids screen time. The issue becomes
when they get to middle school because social life is

(59:37):
in social networks and you can't really eyes it at
your child, and that's when it becomes a problem. And
you can do things in the meantime. You can model.
I mean I try when I'm home and all my
kids are here, so I don't have to worry. I
try to put the phones somewhere away from me, and
so you can do things, and you can do small
things for yourself. You know, again, when I work, because

(59:58):
I am as I mentioned I'm as addicted as all
of us despite everything I know. I always put my
phone on twenty minutes a timer and I write for
twenty minutes, and then I check my emails and I
do this again. There are things you can do, and
you can also kids remember the pandemic. They remember how

(01:00:19):
they felt, so you can talk to your mind them
how they felt horrible at that time and how they
felt much better when they saw people, so you can
make a difference. You cannot force an older kid not
to do that. It's not going to work. I mean.
And also that's smarter than us with technology, they'll always
beat us. It's not going to happen. So I think

(01:00:41):
it's a combination of doing what you can and while
also realizing this the broader situation too, by not blaming yourself.
It's the most important thing because that that is the
problem now that people are sitting there and thinking it's
all their fault. Right. Yeah, we're like in the plastic
straws debate where we're like, actually, what about No, it

(01:01:02):
can't be down to my level. What about the companies
that are actually the ones that are steering all of this?
And I think that is an important thing to sort
of resenter, like in the in the conversation, I have
a couple of comments to make on that I do
think that like watching kids, because I tootor a lot
of kids and like watching them. I feel like overall,
with technology, just like with life, like you, you really

(01:01:25):
do have to raise them the way that you think
you should raise them, and then try to be as
involved as you can without being overbearing and allow them
to like make their mistakes, and then you kind of
have to hope that like those values that you passed
on to them guide their use of technology as well,
and that they come to you when they're scared or

(01:01:46):
they like need help with something. It seems like to me,
I'm a I'm a parent to dogs, so I don't
have to worry about this. But we did watch the
Public Bowl and they were addicted. But also the other
thing is you're talking about how you don't have to
worry about it with smaller children, But FaceTime is how
I stay connected with my nephew, And I know plenty
of people that purposefully like FaceTime family members like they're

(01:02:09):
infant children, just so that they hear the voice, they
see the face. Then they start associating that face with
the screen, you know, with the good feelings with the screen.
But that's the only way, like I can keep in
touch with him because he's it's such a long distance
and I know that's slightly different than games and stuff,
but I also want to worry about that, you know.
I think it's a great example because it's important to

(01:02:31):
also remember that not or screen is made alike. I think,
you know, connecting with people over FaceTime is a great thing,
especially relatives who live away. You know, being able to
read the New Times or any news is different. The
problem becomes when you're selling things as educational games and

(01:02:52):
people are playing them and they get all these dopamine
bursts from playing, or social networks you get the dopamine
burst from the comments and the likes. So there's a
big difference between games and social networks or or YouTube
where the one short video you know, hands and the
next one stalls and and talking to Grandma on FaceTime. Yeah, okay,

(01:03:15):
that makes me feel better, thank you. Yeah, it's I mean,
it's but I mean, these are all things, like like
you said, like Paula, be like you have concerns, Like
I was, like talking to my dad on FaceTime who
was like not able to see my son and for
you and you, I mean he's not really able, like
he can't my son can't see na where he's like
associated all this too, but to your point, like how

(01:03:37):
the beginnings of your relationship to the screen begins, and
and and guy, you also mentioned this too, like like
not using the phone in front of the kids too,
because I've seen my other friends do that where they're
trying to say like I don't want my kid to
think that when you're not doing something, you look at
your phone or that that's that's what is normal, Like
you can be active, or you can do other things,

(01:03:58):
or you can like read a physical book. But some
I've heard people say like I don't want my kids
like early memories of like me being like I'm looking
down at this like glowing rectangle and baby, ye see
that that just like sort of the most normal thing. Obviously,
you know, we have to use our phones. But I
get that they're like it's it's all very subtle and
how like kids begin to like see what's normal or

(01:04:19):
not normal? Yeah, and I think you know that. Yeah,
the studies show that parents who are having users their
kids also, have you used the phone. On the other hand,
it's hard. You know you're there, but you're using a
phone because you're texting your babysitters and you can't find
a babysitt and you're texting another. So it's it's not Sally,
it's not. There's no perfect solution. We're not living in
a perfect world for this, so we can just try

(01:04:42):
our best, but it's not. There's no easy way out
right now right, I think that sums up so many
of what we're experiencing in this present moment. Can I
just say something that might help this story come full circle? Yes? Um,
I just an article that said Pablo Xavier, a thirty

(01:05:03):
one year old construction worker from the Chicago area, said
he was tripping on shrooms last week when he came
up with the idea for Pope Francis his puffy jacket image.
So he was out in the world something drugs, yes,
experiencing community and nature and stuff when he came up
with the things that'll do to your brain. You know,

(01:05:24):
just yeah, small talk with people. But again, I think yeah,
important that if we understand that it's like this very
complex issue where it's such a double edged sword where
it's given us things like being able to connect with
people when we need to and in ways that are
much better than just like talking over the phone or
writing something. But at the same time there's also this

(01:05:44):
like commodified monetized, you know, use of technology that is
purely built on extracting as much eyeball time from you
as possible, and you know, not reckoning with that is
creating a bit of a slippery slope. But that's why
I thank you so much, Professor Guy burn Scene for
stopping by the daily sitegeist. Where can people find you

(01:06:05):
and your work and read more from you if they
would like to? So my website is guy burns seem
dot com and my book is available on Amazon Bars
and I will every every place you would normally purchase
your book. And thank you so much for having me.
Oh no, no, no, you classed up the joint with

(01:06:25):
your apies. And is there any work of social media
or anything that you would like to point to that
you were enjoying If not, it's all it's I get it.
We're trying to get enjoying you not the right world.
But I've been looking at Israeli and there's been lots
going on the protest, and my best friends sent me
a video of herr and thousands of women dressed as

(01:06:47):
the Handmaid's Tail costume because there's a big constitutional reform
attempt which also undermine the rights of women LGBTQ people.
So I look at this video a lot, and I'm
happy to be able to see this video even though
I was not there, and I still wish I was

(01:07:09):
there with everybody. Yeah, it shows you what what a
general strike can do too, because I believe Netanyahu said
he's going to delay that plan as a result of that. Hey,
collectivism works, you know, general strikes, Trium out America and Polavie.
Thank you so much for joining me today. Where can
people find you and follow you? See you all that?

(01:07:31):
And what's a tweet that you like? I'm at Pola
Viganalan everywhere. Good luck spelling that. I'm tired of spelling
it out. I've been doing a lot of stand up lately,
so come see me perform because I don't want to,
as a content creator, have to post to Instagram every
day so that real will pop off so I can
just be on stage surrounded by people. I don't like
that either, that I get punished for not posting everything

(01:07:52):
all the time. I am. I'm so tired of it.
My favorite tweet this have you seen banshees of any year? In? No,
it's on my list though, Oh my god, it is
so good. Yeah. But it's about a friendship falling out.
And there was an image of the two main characters
you know in that from that movie, and then someone tweeted,

(01:08:13):
I just don't want to do laundry and taxes with
you no more. It's a valium breaking up his friendship.
And then someone else quote tweeted that with nothing nowhere,
never happening again, and I thought that was amazing. And
that was at Senna Cianna Dublin and at Runs with Skizzers.
All right. You can find me at Miles of Gray

(01:08:36):
on Twitter and Instagram. I've been I don't know anything.
What have I liked on? I haven't I'm not gonna,
haven't looked on. Oh. I like all the messages people
have sent me on Instagram welcoming back. That has been fantastic.
I really appreciate all the listeners reaching out with your
kind words and reminding me that I will know how
to say foot notes when the time does come. You

(01:08:57):
can also find Jack and own our basketball Poe cast
Miles and Jack got Matt boosties. Also, I'm on four
twenty Day Fiance We'll be coming back soon where Sophia,
Alexander and I talk about our favorite reality show, ninety
Day Beyonce. You can find us at Daily z et
Geist on Twitter, at the Daily ze Geist on Instagram,
got a Facebook fan page and website Daily zat geys
dot com. We're posted episodes on our footnotes probably one

(01:09:19):
time footnote footnotes thank you, where you can find leading
all the articles that we talked about, as well as
the song we are going to ride out on. What
song is that? Oh well, thank you for asking. Today.
We are going to go out on this track called
Grateful by El Michael's Affair with Black Doought rapping over it.

(01:09:39):
El Michael's Affair is a great band. I love all
their instrument of music. Black Dot is the goat you
know when he starts rhyming. This track is really dope,
is heavy. If you like Black Doot, you're gonna like this.
If you like hip hop, you've got to check this out.
And even if you don't, it's a good track. It's
called Grateful, which we are for sure. Oh Michael's affair
in Black thought, that's gonna do it for us today.

(01:10:00):
We're gonna be back later with to tell you what's trending,
and then tomorrow with a whole new episode. So until then,
just you know. This is a production of iHeartRadio. So
for more podcasts, check out the iHeartRadio app for app
podcast wherever you get them. All right, talk to you
then bye.